From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun May 1 00:51:55 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 20:51:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Message-ID: <4dbcaec3.a559e60a.2050.4fc6@mx.google.com> I'll say this again. So, we're a minority. Who cares? Should that discourage us from at least trying to get all technology to be accessible? My answer is a resounding, "No!" We have as much of a right as anybody to have access to technology. We just need a few adaptations. Come on, guys, where's the NFB philosophy here? I can't be the only one on an NFB-NET list who believes that we deserve the right of access to technology and we need to fight for it! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" wrote: It continues to amaze me in how inaccessible new technologies can be. I don't think that the people who design them are purposefully making them inaccessible, but it is still very frustrating. For example, I just read a paper about a virtual nurse agent that is designed to help patients understand medical information before being discharged from the hospital. Although the system does talk, it has several other features, including a touchscreen and pointing at places in a print booklet, which would be completely inaccessible to the blind. My question then is, besides educating people about blindness, is there something else that could be done? For example, should there be a law that all touch screen devices have to be accessible or have an option for accessibility? The paper can be found at: http://relationalagents.com/publications/CHI09.VirtualNurse.pdf Nicole _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.mol loy%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun May 1 00:51:58 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 20:51:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindtlk] Summer Reading is Just a BRL Book Away Message-ID: <4dbcaec8.a559e60a.2050.4fc7@mx.google.com> Hi, everybody. This is something I thought you all would be interested in that I got on the NFB Blind Talk list. Mom, again, since I don't have Miss Chris Day's email, can you forward this to her? I think this might be something Derrick would be interested in. Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ---- Original Message ------ From: "April Enderton" (by way of David Andrews) Subject: [Blindtlk] Summer Reading is Just a BRL Book Away Date sent: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 11:52:03 -0500 Away at camp, Or back at home, With a friend, Or on your own, Traveling near, Or way afar, In a boat, plane, train or car, By the pool, Or at the fair, On the beach, The wind in your hair. Hanging out at the ice-cream shop, Sipping on a soda pop, Wwalking leisurely through the park, Come rain or shine, Or cloak of dark, Summer is much more fun indeed, With lots of BRL books to read. Splash into summer by stocking up on great BRL books. If you are a teacher of the visually impaired who wants your students to keep up with their braille over the summer, a librarian who strives to offer a wide variety of braille titles to your braille readers or a blind person who enjoys reading to sighted children, Beulah Reimer Legacy (BRL), is dedicated to meeting your Braille needs. Ever go to a store and see the children's book you want and find yourself wishing that book were in Braille? Well, wish no more. BRL has many of the most popular children's picture books such as Clifford, Corduroy, Curious George, Disney Princesses, Dora, Elmo, Fancy Nancy and the Berenstain Bears in Braille at affordable prices. BRL's mission is to increase Braille literacy and reading opportunities by placing Braille in the hands of eager readers. All of our books are brailled with clear plastic strips which are placed on top of the printed text. Our books are shipped free of charge. Please allow two weeks for delivery. BRL accepts checks, money orders and purchase orders. We also accept payment online via Pay Pal. To request the most recent booklist, place an order or receive more information about BRL, please use the contact information below: April Enderton 7758 Southeast 36th Street Des Moines, Iowa 50320 phone: 515-282-0049 e-mail: endertona at wildblue.net website: www.beulahreimerlegacy.com Happy summer reading. Sincerely, April Enderton BRL Book List Summer 2011 (All books listed are six dollars unless otherwise specified) A bear for Breakfast (board book) - Jennifer King A big night in Booville - Slade Stone A Christmas Carol - Gaby Goldsack A color of his Own - Leo Lionni A Kiss Goodbye -Audrey Penn A letter to Santa - Gaby Goldsack A perfect Picnic - Sarah Albee A pocket for Corduroy - Don Freeman A pocket full of Kisses - Audrey Penn A present for Magenta - Kitty Fross A silly snowy Day - Michael Coleman A very special Snowflake - Don Hoffman An Angel of my Own with a beautiful angel necklace for you to wear - Beth Roberts An underwater Welcome Animals of the Sea (board book) Arthur and the big Snow - Marc Brown Arthur's perfect Christmas - Marc Brown Arthur helps Out - Marc Brown Arthur jumps into Fall - Marc Brown Arthur to the Rescue - Marc Brown Arthur's Reading Race - Marc Brown Baby touch and feel, quack! Quack! (board book) Baby Strawberry's first Christmas (board book) Ballerina Belle (board book) Bert and Ernie's first book of Opposites (board book) Birthday Countdown - Amber Stewart (board book) Care Bears, Catch the Christmas Spirit Chester Raccoon and the acorn full of Memories - Audrey Penn Chester Raccoon and the big bad Bully - Audrey Penn Chicka chicka boom Boom - Bill Martin Jr. Chicken Little - pictures by Laura Rader Chocolate Chippo Hippo - Vincent Andriani Chubby Puppies Summer Picnic - Olivia Barham Clifford and the big Storm - Norman Bridwell Clifford and the grouchy Neighbors - Norman Bridwell Clifford and the Halloween Parade - Norman Bridwell Clifford at the Circus - Norman Bridwell Clifford goes to Washington - Norman Bridwell Clifford the Big Red Dog Deck the Halls - Maria S. Barbo Clifford the big red Dog, The show-and-tell Surprise Clifford the big red Dog, Thanksgiving Parade - Maria S. Barbo Clifford The Big Red Dog, The big egg Hunt - Suzanne Weyn Clifford The Big Red Dog, The dog who cried Woof - Norman Bridwell Clifford the big red Dog, The runaway Rabbit Clifford the big red Dog, Tummy Trouble - Norman Bridwell Clifford the Big Red Dog Valentine Surprise - Quinlan B. Lee Clifford the small red Puppy - Norman Bridwell Clifford to the Rescue - Norman Bridwell Clifford's birthday Party - Norman Bridwell Clifford's busy Week - Norman Bridwell Clifford's Christmas - Norman Bridwell Clifford's Family -Norman Bridwell Clifford's first Christmas - Norman Bridwell Clifford's first snow Day - Norman Bridwell Clifford's first Valentine's Day - Norman Bridwell Clifford's good Deeds - Norman Bridwell Clifford's Halloween Howl - Norman Bridwell Clifford's happy Easter - Norman Bridwell Clifford's Happy Mother's Day - Norman Bridwell Clifford's Kitten - Norman Bridwell Clifford's Manners - Norman Bridwell Clifford's puppy Days, Apple-picking Day - Samantha Brooke Clifford's puppy Days, Christmas Angel - Quinlan B. Lee Clifford's Puppy Days Lots of Love - Sarah Fisch Clifford's puppy Days, Pumpkin patch Puppy - Danielle Denega Clifford's Spring Clean Up - Norman Bridwell Clifford's Thanksgiving Visit - Norman Bridwell Clifford's Valentine's Day - Norman Bridwell Come and Play Bunny, soft to touch (board book) Commotion in the Ocean - Giles Andreae Corduroy - Don Freeman Corduroys best Halloween Ever - Don Freeman Corduroys Christmas Surprise - based on the character created by Don Freeman Countdown to Bedtime (board book) with glowing moon nightlight Countdown to Kindergarten - Alison McGhee Curious George - H. A. Rey Curious George and the birthday Surprise - Margret and H.A. Rey Curious George and the Dinosaur - Margret and H.A. Rey Curious George and the Firefighters - Margret and H. A. Rey Curious George and the Puppies - Margret and H. A. Rey Curious George at the Aquarium - Margret and H. A. Rey Curious George at the baseball Game - Margret and H.A. Rey Curious George builds a Home Curious George goes to a costume Party - Margret and H. A. Rey Curious George Goes to the Hospital - Margret and H. A. Rey $8 Curious George Makes Pancakes - H. A. Rey Curious George snowy Day - Rotem Moscovich Curious George Takes a Job - Margret and H. A. Rey $8 Curious George takes a Train - Margret and H.A. Rey Curious George the doughnut Delivery - Monica Perez Curious George Visits a Toy Store - Margret and H. A. Rey Curious George Visits the Library - Margret and H. A. Rey Curious George's Dinosaur Discovery - Margret and H. A. Rey Curious Kitties (board book) - illustrated by Melanie Mitchell Diego Saves the Sloth - Alexis Romay Diego Saves the Tree Frogs - Sarah Willson Diego's Wolf Pup Rescue - Christine Ricci Disney Aladdin Disney Beauty and the Beast, Together Forever $8 Disney Bedtime Stories - adapted by Ann-Marie Harris $10 Disney Cinderella Disney Cinderella, A royal Heart $8 Disney Dumbo $8 Disney Jasmine Star Bright $8 Disney Pixar Cars, The spooky Sound - Melissa Lagonegro Disney Princess Snow White and the seven Dwarfs A gift from the Heart Disney Princesses, Sweet and spooky Halloween - Melissa Lagonegro Disney Sleeping Beauty, Storybook and Charm $10 Disney Snow White and the seven Dwarfs Disney The Jungle Book $8 Disney The Little Mermaid, Two of a Kind $8 Disney's Lilo and Stitch the series, Home stinky Home Disney's Winnie the Pooh's Halloween - Bruce Talkington $8 Dora loves Boots - Alison Inches Dora the Explorer Dora and the stuck Truck - Phoebe Beinstein Dora the Explorer, Dora Climbs Star Mountain - Alison Inches Dora the Explorer Dora goes to School - Leslie Valdes Dora the Explorer Dora's BackPack - Sarah Willson Dora the Explorer Dora's outer space Adventure - Alison Inches Dora the Explorer Dora's Picnic - Christine Ricci Dora the Explorer Eggs for Everyone - Laura Driscoll Dora the Explorer, Little Star - Sarah Willson Dora saves the Snow Princess - Phoebe Beinstein Dora's Big Birthday Adventure - Lauryn Silverhardt Dora's book of Manners - Christine Ricci Dora's Costume Party - Christine Ricci Dora's perfect Pumpkin - Kirsten Larsen Easter Bunny - Holly Russell (board book) Easter Bunny's on his Way - Brian james Easter eggs Everywhere - Steve Metzger Easter Parade - Irving Berlin Eight Silly Monkeys (board book) - illustrated by Steve Haskamp Elmo Loves You - Sarah Albee Elmo's ABC Book - Sarah Albee Elmo's first Babysitter - Sarah Albee Eye see You, Dinosaurs (board book) Fancy Nancy, Halloween or Bust - Jane O'Connor Fancy Nancy, Heart to Heart - Jane O'Connor Fancy Nancy, 100th day of School - Jane O'Connor Five green and speckled Frogs - illustrated by Constanza Basaluzzo Five little Honeybees (board book) - James Croft Five little Pumpkins - Dan Yaccarino Five little Skunks (board book includes audio CD) Five silly penguins slipping on the Ice - Steve Metzger Flat Stanley and the haunted House - Lori Haskins Frogs and Friends (board book) - Joanne Barkan Frosty the Snowman - Steve Nelson and Jack Rollins - Garden of Shapes (board book) Goldilocks and the Three Bears (board book) Candice Ransom Go Diego Go, Antarctic Adventure - Sarah Albee Grover's 10 terrific ways to help our wonderful World - Anna Ross - Halloween Jack (board book) Happy Easter, Curious George - Margret and H.A. rey Happy Easter, Little Critter - Mercer Mayer Here comes T Rex Cottontail - Lois G. Grambling $8 Houseful of Pets (board book) How do dinosaurs say good Night - Jane Yolen How to be a Ham-star - Frances Ann Ladd Hurry Santa - Julie Sykes I like Pumpkins - Jerry Smath I was so Mad - Mercer Mayer I'm Sorry - Moira Butterfield Imagine That - Sam McKendry In a Dark, Dark Room and Other Scary Stories - retold By Alvin Schwartz $8 It's Earth Day - Mercer Mayer It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown - Charles M. Schulz It's Check-up Time, Elmo - Sarah Albee Just for Mommy (board book) Just go to Bed -Mercer Mayer Justgoing to the Dentist - Mercer Mayer $B!!(B Ladybug's Birthday - Steve Metzger Let it Snow - Maryann Cocca-Leffler Little Bear - Else Holmelund Minarik $8 Little Critters, The night before Christmas - Mercer Mayer Lulu goes to witch School - Jane O'Connor Madeline's Christmas - Ludwig Bemelmans - Marley and the runaway Pumpkin - JohnGrogan Marly's big Adventure - John Grogan Mickey Mouse Clubhouse, Clubhouse Christmas (board book) Miss Bindergarten celebrates the last day of Kindergarten - Joseph Slate Miss Bindergarten gets ready for Kindergarten - Joseph Slate Miss Bindergarten stays home from Kindergarten - Joseph Slate Mother Goose (board book and read-along CD $8 Mrs. McNash hangs up her Wash - Sarah Weeks My Little Kitten with a kitten charm necklace - Susan Nicholson My Little Puppy with a puppy charm necklace - Susan Nicholson My very first Winnie the Pooh, Roo's Messy Room - Betty Birney Nice Catch -Dian Curtis Regan (board book) No More Monsters for Me - Peggy Parish $8 Off to Kindergarten - Tony Johnson Oh, What a Thanksgiving - Steven Kroll On the way to Kindergarten - Virginia Kroll One Sneaky Sheep, the Sheep Who Didn't Want to Get Sheared (board book) - illustrated by Janet Samuel Penguins, penguins, Everywhere! - Bob Barner Piglet and the Balloon (board book) Pooh's Graduation - Isabel Gaines Puppy Love - Louise Rupnik Raindrop Plop - Wendy Cheyette Lewisson Read Aloud, Disney, Pixar, Cars - - Lisa Marsoli $10 - Red or Blue, I Like You - Sarah Albee Rise and Shine Musical Alarm Clock (board book) Rosita's Easter on Sesame Street - P. J. Shaw Rugrats, Picture Perfect withTommy - Sarah Willson Scat Cat - Alyssa Satin Capucilli Scooby-doo Holiday Hoax -Gail Herman Scooby-doo vanishing Apples - Gail Herman Sesame Street, Count to 10 -Emily Thompson Shhh! - Julie Sykes Soft to Touch, Little Monkey and Friends (board book) Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (board book and CD) Snowball Soup - Mercer Mayer Snowy winter Day - Estelle Feldman SpongeBob Squarepants and the Winner Is... - Jenny Miglis SpongeBob Squarepants Ice cream Dreams - Nancy Krulik SpongeBob Squarepants, Lost in Time, A Midevil Adventure - Steven Banks SpongeBob's Easter Parade - Steven Banks SpongeBob's secret Valentine -David Lewman Strawberry Shortcake, The Halloween Play - Eva Mason Teach Us, Amelia Bedelia - - Peggy Parish $8 Ten fat Turkeys -Tony Johnston Ten in the Bed, sing a story (board book) and CD Ten Timid Ghosts - Jennifer O'Connell The Berenstain Bears, All Aboard -Jan and Mike Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and baby makes Five - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the bad Habit - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the bad Influence - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the big Question - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the blame Game - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the double Dare - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the excuse Note - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the golden Rule - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the In-crowd - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the Joy of Giving - Jan and Mike Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the Mama's Day Surprise - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the Papa's Day Surprise - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the real Easter Eggs - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the Sitter - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the trouble with Friends - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the Truth - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and too much Birthday - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and too much Junk Food - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and too much TV - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears Give Thanks - Jan and Mike Berenstain $8 The Berenstain Bears go on a Ghost Walk - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears go out to Eat - Jan and Mike Berenstain The Berenstain Bears go to School - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears learn about Strangers - Stan and Jan Berenstain $8 The Berenstain Bears meet Santa Bear - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears new Neighbors - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears ride the Thunderbolt - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears think of those in Need - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears Trick or Treat - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears trouble with Money - Stan and Jan Berenstain The best teacher Ever - Mercer Mayer The big wide mouthed Frog - Ana Martin Larranaga The biggest, best Snowman - Margery Cuyler The biggest Easter basket Ever - Steven Kroll The Biggest Pumpkin Ever - Steven Kroll The biggest snowball Ever - John Rogan The biggest snowman Ever - Steven Kroll The biggest Valentine Ever - Steven Kroll The birds, the bees and the Berenstain Bears - Stan and Jan Berenstain The bumpy little Pumpkin - Margery Cuyler The Case of the Disappearing Acorns (board book) The Cow that Went Oink - Bernard Most The crunching munching Caterpillar - Sheridan Cain The first Christmas - Gaby Goldsack The fox and the springtime Blossoms - Julia Rawlinson The gingerbread Man - retold by Jim aylesworth The giving Tree - Shel Silverstein $10 The great turkey Race -Steve Metzger The Halloween Play - Felicia Bond The haunted ghoul Bus - Lisa Trumbauer The Kissing Hand - Audrey Penn The Little Old Lady Who was not Afraid of Anything - Linda Williams The littlest Christmas Star - Brandi Dougherty The night before Christmas - Clement Clarke The night before Easter - Natasha Wing The Night Before Halloween - Natasha Wing The night before Kindergarten - Natasha Wing The night before Mother's Day - Natasha Wing The night before New Year's - Natasha Wing The night before summer Camp - Natasha Wing The night before summer Vacation - Natasha Wing The night before Thanksgiving - Natasha Wing The night before the night before Christmas - Natasha Wing The night before the tooth Fairy - Natasha Wing The night before Valentine's Day - Natasha Wing The prayer for Jabez, Jabez for little Ones (board book) - Bruce Talkington The Princess and the Pea - Hans Christian Andersen The story of Peter Rabbit (board book) $10 The teeny weeny Tadpole - Sheridan Cain The Three Little Pigs (board book) - illustrated by Horacio Elena The Tiny Seed - Eric Carle $8 The twelve days of Christmas, includes audio CD (board book) The very greedy Bee - Steve Smallman Three Little Kittens (board book) - illustrated by Tanya Lynch Tiptoe into Kindergarten - Jacqueline Rogers Try Counting Sheep (board book) - Joanne Partis Turkey Day - Grace Maccarone Twelve days of Christmas - illustrated by Gill Guille Valentine Mice - Bethany Roberts Wake up little Ones (board book) - Melanie Mitchell Walt Disney's Bambi (board book) $10 Walt Disney's Peter Pan (board book) $10 Water -Susan Canizares We're going on a book Hunt - Pat Miller What do you Like? - Monica Wellington What Makes You Giggle - P. J. Shaw Where's Santa (board book) - Joseph R. Ritchie Who will go to kindergarten Today - Karl Ruhmann Who will haunt my house on Halloween - Jerry Pallotta Zoe's first book of Seasons (board book) ~Zoo's Who - Robert Tanish _______________________________________________ blindtlk mailing list blindtlk at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dotkid. nusbaum%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun May 1 01:42:04 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 21:42:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindtlk] Summer Reading is Just a BRL Book Away In-Reply-To: <4dbcaec8.a559e60a.2050.4fc7@mx.google.com> References: <4dbcaec8.a559e60a.2050.4fc7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <8B44896694E449D88707D7746518024A@OwnerPC> I don't think you meant that for the list. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 8:51 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org ; jsotwel at carrollk12.org ; wendynusbaum at yahoo.com Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindtlk] Summer Reading is Just a BRL Book Away Hi, everybody. This is something I thought you all would be interested in that I got on the NFB Blind Talk list. Mom, again, since I don't have Miss Chris Day's email, can you forward this to her? I think this might be something Derrick would be interested in. Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ---- Original Message ------ From: "April Enderton" (by way of David Andrews) Subject: [Blindtlk] Summer Reading is Just a BRL Book Away Date sent: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 11:52:03 -0500 Away at camp, Or back at home, With a friend, Or on your own, Traveling near, Or way afar, In a boat, plane, train or car, By the pool, Or at the fair, On the beach, The wind in your hair. Hanging out at the ice-cream shop, Sipping on a soda pop, Wwalking leisurely through the park, Come rain or shine, Or cloak of dark, Summer is much more fun indeed, With lots of BRL books to read. Splash into summer by stocking up on great BRL books. If you are a teacher of the visually impaired who wants your students to keep up with their braille over the summer, a librarian who strives to offer a wide variety of braille titles to your braille readers or a blind person who enjoys reading to sighted children, Beulah Reimer Legacy (BRL), is dedicated to meeting your Braille needs. Ever go to a store and see the children's book you want and find yourself wishing that book were in Braille? Well, wish no more. BRL has many of the most popular children's picture books such as Clifford, Corduroy, Curious George, Disney Princesses, Dora, Elmo, Fancy Nancy and the Berenstain Bears in Braille at affordable prices. BRL's mission is to increase Braille literacy and reading opportunities by placing Braille in the hands of eager readers. All of our books are brailled with clear plastic strips which are placed on top of the printed text. Our books are shipped free of charge. Please allow two weeks for delivery. BRL accepts checks, money orders and purchase orders. We also accept payment online via Pay Pal. To request the most recent booklist, place an order or receive more information about BRL, please use the contact information below: April Enderton 7758 Southeast 36th Street Des Moines, Iowa 50320 phone: 515-282-0049 e-mail: endertona at wildblue.net website: www.beulahreimerlegacy.com Happy summer reading. Sincerely, April Enderton BRL Book List Summer 2011 (All books listed are six dollars unless otherwise specified) A bear for Breakfast (board book) - Jennifer King A big night in Booville - Slade Stone A Christmas Carol - Gaby Goldsack A color of his Own - Leo Lionni A Kiss Goodbye -Audrey Penn A letter to Santa - Gaby Goldsack A perfect Picnic - Sarah Albee A pocket for Corduroy - Don Freeman A pocket full of Kisses - Audrey Penn A present for Magenta - Kitty Fross A silly snowy Day - Michael Coleman A very special Snowflake - Don Hoffman An Angel of my Own with a beautiful angel necklace for you to wear - Beth Roberts An underwater Welcome Animals of the Sea (board book) Arthur and the big Snow - Marc Brown Arthur's perfect Christmas - Marc Brown Arthur helps Out - Marc Brown Arthur jumps into Fall - Marc Brown Arthur to the Rescue - Marc Brown Arthur's Reading Race - Marc Brown Baby touch and feel, quack! Quack! (board book) Baby Strawberry's first Christmas (board book) Ballerina Belle (board book) Bert and Ernie's first book of Opposites (board book) Birthday Countdown - Amber Stewart (board book) Care Bears, Catch the Christmas Spirit Chester Raccoon and the acorn full of Memories - Audrey Penn Chester Raccoon and the big bad Bully - Audrey Penn Chicka chicka boom Boom - Bill Martin Jr. Chicken Little - pictures by Laura Rader Chocolate Chippo Hippo - Vincent Andriani Chubby Puppies Summer Picnic - Olivia Barham Clifford and the big Storm - Norman Bridwell Clifford and the grouchy Neighbors - Norman Bridwell Clifford and the Halloween Parade - Norman Bridwell Clifford at the Circus - Norman Bridwell Clifford goes to Washington - Norman Bridwell Clifford the Big Red Dog Deck the Halls - Maria S. Barbo Clifford the big red Dog, The show-and-tell Surprise Clifford the big red Dog, Thanksgiving Parade - Maria S. Barbo Clifford The Big Red Dog, The big egg Hunt - Suzanne Weyn Clifford The Big Red Dog, The dog who cried Woof - Norman Bridwell Clifford the big red Dog, The runaway Rabbit Clifford the big red Dog, Tummy Trouble - Norman Bridwell Clifford the Big Red Dog Valentine Surprise - Quinlan B. Lee Clifford the small red Puppy - Norman Bridwell Clifford to the Rescue - Norman Bridwell Clifford's birthday Party - Norman Bridwell Clifford's busy Week - Norman Bridwell Clifford's Christmas - Norman Bridwell Clifford's Family -Norman Bridwell Clifford's first Christmas - Norman Bridwell Clifford's first snow Day - Norman Bridwell Clifford's first Valentine's Day - Norman Bridwell Clifford's good Deeds - Norman Bridwell Clifford's Halloween Howl - Norman Bridwell Clifford's happy Easter - Norman Bridwell Clifford's Happy Mother's Day - Norman Bridwell Clifford's Kitten - Norman Bridwell Clifford's Manners - Norman Bridwell Clifford's puppy Days, Apple-picking Day - Samantha Brooke Clifford's puppy Days, Christmas Angel - Quinlan B. Lee Clifford's Puppy Days Lots of Love - Sarah Fisch Clifford's puppy Days, Pumpkin patch Puppy - Danielle Denega Clifford's Spring Clean Up - Norman Bridwell Clifford's Thanksgiving Visit - Norman Bridwell Clifford's Valentine's Day - Norman Bridwell Come and Play Bunny, soft to touch (board book) Commotion in the Ocean - Giles Andreae Corduroy - Don Freeman Corduroys best Halloween Ever - Don Freeman Corduroys Christmas Surprise - based on the character created by Don Freeman Countdown to Bedtime (board book) with glowing moon nightlight Countdown to Kindergarten - Alison McGhee Curious George - H. A. Rey Curious George and the birthday Surprise - Margret and H.A. Rey Curious George and the Dinosaur - Margret and H.A. Rey Curious George and the Firefighters - Margret and H. A. Rey Curious George and the Puppies - Margret and H. A. Rey Curious George at the Aquarium - Margret and H. A. Rey Curious George at the baseball Game - Margret and H.A. Rey Curious George builds a Home Curious George goes to a costume Party - Margret and H. A. Rey Curious George Goes to the Hospital - Margret and H. A. Rey $8 Curious George Makes Pancakes - H. A. Rey Curious George snowy Day - Rotem Moscovich Curious George Takes a Job - Margret and H. A. Rey $8 Curious George takes a Train - Margret and H.A. Rey Curious George the doughnut Delivery - Monica Perez Curious George Visits a Toy Store - Margret and H. A. Rey Curious George Visits the Library - Margret and H. A. Rey Curious George's Dinosaur Discovery - Margret and H. A. Rey Curious Kitties (board book) - illustrated by Melanie Mitchell Diego Saves the Sloth - Alexis Romay Diego Saves the Tree Frogs - Sarah Willson Diego's Wolf Pup Rescue - Christine Ricci Disney Aladdin Disney Beauty and the Beast, Together Forever $8 Disney Bedtime Stories - adapted by Ann-Marie Harris $10 Disney Cinderella Disney Cinderella, A royal Heart $8 Disney Dumbo $8 Disney Jasmine Star Bright $8 Disney Pixar Cars, The spooky Sound - Melissa Lagonegro Disney Princess Snow White and the seven Dwarfs A gift from the Heart Disney Princesses, Sweet and spooky Halloween - Melissa Lagonegro Disney Sleeping Beauty, Storybook and Charm $10 Disney Snow White and the seven Dwarfs Disney The Jungle Book $8 Disney The Little Mermaid, Two of a Kind $8 Disney's Lilo and Stitch the series, Home stinky Home Disney's Winnie the Pooh's Halloween - Bruce Talkington $8 Dora loves Boots - Alison Inches Dora the Explorer Dora and the stuck Truck - Phoebe Beinstein Dora the Explorer, Dora Climbs Star Mountain - Alison Inches Dora the Explorer Dora goes to School - Leslie Valdes Dora the Explorer Dora's BackPack - Sarah Willson Dora the Explorer Dora's outer space Adventure - Alison Inches Dora the Explorer Dora's Picnic - Christine Ricci Dora the Explorer Eggs for Everyone - Laura Driscoll Dora the Explorer, Little Star - Sarah Willson Dora saves the Snow Princess - Phoebe Beinstein Dora's Big Birthday Adventure - Lauryn Silverhardt Dora's book of Manners - Christine Ricci Dora's Costume Party - Christine Ricci Dora's perfect Pumpkin - Kirsten Larsen Easter Bunny - Holly Russell (board book) Easter Bunny's on his Way - Brian james Easter eggs Everywhere - Steve Metzger Easter Parade - Irving Berlin Eight Silly Monkeys (board book) - illustrated by Steve Haskamp Elmo Loves You - Sarah Albee Elmo's ABC Book - Sarah Albee Elmo's first Babysitter - Sarah Albee Eye see You, Dinosaurs (board book) Fancy Nancy, Halloween or Bust - Jane O'Connor Fancy Nancy, Heart to Heart - Jane O'Connor Fancy Nancy, 100th day of School - Jane O'Connor Five green and speckled Frogs - illustrated by Constanza Basaluzzo Five little Honeybees (board book) - James Croft Five little Pumpkins - Dan Yaccarino Five little Skunks (board book includes audio CD) Five silly penguins slipping on the Ice - Steve Metzger Flat Stanley and the haunted House - Lori Haskins Frogs and Friends (board book) - Joanne Barkan Frosty the Snowman - Steve Nelson and Jack Rollins - Garden of Shapes (board book) Goldilocks and the Three Bears (board book) Candice Ransom Go Diego Go, Antarctic Adventure - Sarah Albee Grover's 10 terrific ways to help our wonderful World - Anna Ross - Halloween Jack (board book) Happy Easter, Curious George - Margret and H.A. rey Happy Easter, Little Critter - Mercer Mayer Here comes T Rex Cottontail - Lois G. Grambling $8 Houseful of Pets (board book) How do dinosaurs say good Night - Jane Yolen How to be a Ham-star - Frances Ann Ladd Hurry Santa - Julie Sykes I like Pumpkins - Jerry Smath I was so Mad - Mercer Mayer I'm Sorry - Moira Butterfield Imagine That - Sam McKendry In a Dark, Dark Room and Other Scary Stories - retold By Alvin Schwartz $8 It's Earth Day - Mercer Mayer It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown - Charles M. Schulz It's Check-up Time, Elmo - Sarah Albee Just for Mommy (board book) Just go to Bed -Mercer Mayer Justgoing to the Dentist - Mercer Mayer $B!!(B Ladybug's Birthday - Steve Metzger Let it Snow - Maryann Cocca-Leffler Little Bear - Else Holmelund Minarik $8 Little Critters, The night before Christmas - Mercer Mayer Lulu goes to witch School - Jane O'Connor Madeline's Christmas - Ludwig Bemelmans - Marley and the runaway Pumpkin - JohnGrogan Marly's big Adventure - John Grogan Mickey Mouse Clubhouse, Clubhouse Christmas (board book) Miss Bindergarten celebrates the last day of Kindergarten - Joseph Slate Miss Bindergarten gets ready for Kindergarten - Joseph Slate Miss Bindergarten stays home from Kindergarten - Joseph Slate Mother Goose (board book and read-along CD $8 Mrs. McNash hangs up her Wash - Sarah Weeks My Little Kitten with a kitten charm necklace - Susan Nicholson My Little Puppy with a puppy charm necklace - Susan Nicholson My very first Winnie the Pooh, Roo's Messy Room - Betty Birney Nice Catch -Dian Curtis Regan (board book) No More Monsters for Me - Peggy Parish $8 Off to Kindergarten - Tony Johnson Oh, What a Thanksgiving - Steven Kroll On the way to Kindergarten - Virginia Kroll One Sneaky Sheep, the Sheep Who Didn't Want to Get Sheared (board book) - illustrated by Janet Samuel Penguins, penguins, Everywhere! - Bob Barner Piglet and the Balloon (board book) Pooh's Graduation - Isabel Gaines Puppy Love - Louise Rupnik Raindrop Plop - Wendy Cheyette Lewisson Read Aloud, Disney, Pixar, Cars - - Lisa Marsoli $10 - Red or Blue, I Like You - Sarah Albee Rise and Shine Musical Alarm Clock (board book) Rosita's Easter on Sesame Street - P. J. Shaw Rugrats, Picture Perfect withTommy - Sarah Willson Scat Cat - Alyssa Satin Capucilli Scooby-doo Holiday Hoax -Gail Herman Scooby-doo vanishing Apples - Gail Herman Sesame Street, Count to 10 -Emily Thompson Shhh! - Julie Sykes Soft to Touch, Little Monkey and Friends (board book) Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (board book and CD) Snowball Soup - Mercer Mayer Snowy winter Day - Estelle Feldman SpongeBob Squarepants and the Winner Is... - Jenny Miglis SpongeBob Squarepants Ice cream Dreams - Nancy Krulik SpongeBob Squarepants, Lost in Time, A Midevil Adventure - Steven Banks SpongeBob's Easter Parade - Steven Banks SpongeBob's secret Valentine -David Lewman Strawberry Shortcake, The Halloween Play - Eva Mason Teach Us, Amelia Bedelia - - Peggy Parish $8 Ten fat Turkeys -Tony Johnston Ten in the Bed, sing a story (board book) and CD Ten Timid Ghosts - Jennifer O'Connell The Berenstain Bears, All Aboard -Jan and Mike Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and baby makes Five - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the bad Habit - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the bad Influence - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the big Question - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the blame Game - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the double Dare - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the excuse Note - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the golden Rule - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the In-crowd - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the Joy of Giving - Jan and Mike Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the Mama's Day Surprise - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the Papa's Day Surprise - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the real Easter Eggs - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the Sitter - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the trouble with Friends - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and the Truth - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and too much Birthday - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and too much Junk Food - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears and too much TV - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears Give Thanks - Jan and Mike Berenstain $8 The Berenstain Bears go on a Ghost Walk - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears go out to Eat - Jan and Mike Berenstain The Berenstain Bears go to School - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears learn about Strangers - Stan and Jan Berenstain $8 The Berenstain Bears meet Santa Bear - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears new Neighbors - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears ride the Thunderbolt - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears think of those in Need - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears Trick or Treat - Stan and Jan Berenstain The Berenstain Bears trouble with Money - Stan and Jan Berenstain The best teacher Ever - Mercer Mayer The big wide mouthed Frog - Ana Martin Larranaga The biggest, best Snowman - Margery Cuyler The biggest Easter basket Ever - Steven Kroll The Biggest Pumpkin Ever - Steven Kroll The biggest snowball Ever - John Rogan The biggest snowman Ever - Steven Kroll The biggest Valentine Ever - Steven Kroll The birds, the bees and the Berenstain Bears - Stan and Jan Berenstain The bumpy little Pumpkin - Margery Cuyler The Case of the Disappearing Acorns (board book) The Cow that Went Oink - Bernard Most The crunching munching Caterpillar - Sheridan Cain The first Christmas - Gaby Goldsack The fox and the springtime Blossoms - Julia Rawlinson The gingerbread Man - retold by Jim aylesworth The giving Tree - Shel Silverstein $10 The great turkey Race -Steve Metzger The Halloween Play - Felicia Bond The haunted ghoul Bus - Lisa Trumbauer The Kissing Hand - Audrey Penn The Little Old Lady Who was not Afraid of Anything - Linda Williams The littlest Christmas Star - Brandi Dougherty The night before Christmas - Clement Clarke The night before Easter - Natasha Wing The Night Before Halloween - Natasha Wing The night before Kindergarten - Natasha Wing The night before Mother's Day - Natasha Wing The night before New Year's - Natasha Wing The night before summer Camp - Natasha Wing The night before summer Vacation - Natasha Wing The night before Thanksgiving - Natasha Wing The night before the night before Christmas - Natasha Wing The night before the tooth Fairy - Natasha Wing The night before Valentine's Day - Natasha Wing The prayer for Jabez, Jabez for little Ones (board book) - Bruce Talkington The Princess and the Pea - Hans Christian Andersen The story of Peter Rabbit (board book) $10 The teeny weeny Tadpole - Sheridan Cain The Three Little Pigs (board book) - illustrated by Horacio Elena The Tiny Seed - Eric Carle $8 The twelve days of Christmas, includes audio CD (board book) The very greedy Bee - Steve Smallman Three Little Kittens (board book) - illustrated by Tanya Lynch Tiptoe into Kindergarten - Jacqueline Rogers Try Counting Sheep (board book) - Joanne Partis Turkey Day - Grace Maccarone Twelve days of Christmas - illustrated by Gill Guille Valentine Mice - Bethany Roberts Wake up little Ones (board book) - Melanie Mitchell Walt Disney's Bambi (board book) $10 Walt Disney's Peter Pan (board book) $10 Water -Susan Canizares We're going on a book Hunt - Pat Miller What do you Like? - Monica Wellington What Makes You Giggle - P. J. Shaw Where's Santa (board book) - Joseph R. Ritchie Who will go to kindergarten Today - Karl Ruhmann Who will haunt my house on Halloween - Jerry Pallotta Zoe's first book of Seasons (board book) ~Zoo's Who - Robert Tanish _______________________________________________ blindtlk mailing list blindtlk at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dotkid. nusbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun May 1 01:48:18 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 21:48:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: <4dbcaec3.a559e60a.2050.4fc6@mx.google.com> References: <4dbcaec3.a559e60a.2050.4fc6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Chris, Agree there! I'm tired of hearing oh we're the minority; true; but we have the right to access like everyone else. Touch screens are everywhere from airports to now, know where? The doctor's office! you can now self check in at the doctor's office via a screen and enter your social security number or something to prove you're that person! But we have no choice but to wait in line because we can't use the self check in without assistance. I want accessible technology and I want companies to consider nonvisual access at the beginning; not an after thought. IMO remember that most low vision people now are seniors or those adults losing vision from diabetes; so this would help lots of people out. The access should be audio because most people with vision loss do not know braille. It does us no good to say oh we're the minority so we're just going to have to deal with i t and inconvenience someone to act as a reader. No, no. They need to make goods and services more accessible to us. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 8:51 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness I'll say this again. So, we're a minority. Who cares? Should that discourage us from at least trying to get all technology to be accessible? My answer is a resounding, "No!" We have as much of a right as anybody to have access to technology. We just need a few adaptations. Come on, guys, where's the NFB philosophy here? I can't be the only one on an NFB-NET list who believes that we deserve the right of access to technology and we need to fight for it! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" wrote: It continues to amaze me in how inaccessible new technologies can be. I don't think that the people who design them are purposefully making them inaccessible, but it is still very frustrating. For example, I just read a paper about a virtual nurse agent that is designed to help patients understand medical information before being discharged from the hospital. Although the system does talk, it has several other features, including a touchscreen and pointing at places in a print booklet, which would be completely inaccessible to the blind. My question then is, besides educating people about blindness, is there something else that could be done? For example, should there be a law that all touch screen devices have to be accessible or have an option for accessibility? The paper can be found at: http://relationalagents.com/publications/CHI09.VirtualNurse.pdf Nicole _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.mol loy%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From k7uij at panix.com Sun May 1 02:51:18 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 19:51:18 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: <4dbcaec3.a559e60a.2050.4fc6@mx.google.com> References: <4dbcaec3.a559e60a.2050.4fc6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: We don't have that right; that's what we are trying to establish. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On Apr 30, 2011, at 17:51, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > I'll say this again. So, we're a minority. Who cares? Should that discourage us from at least trying to get all technology to be accessible? My answer is a resounding, "No!" We have as much of a right as anybody to have access to technology. We just need a few adaptations. Come on, guys, where's the NFB philosophy here? I can't be the only one on an NFB-NET list who believes that we deserve the right of access to technology and we need to fight for it! > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date sent: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 19:24:46 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Patrick et al: > > I wouldn't count on increased numbers of visually impaired people to drive > technology development. Even if the number were to double, visually > impaired people would still constitute a minority of the population. Short > of legal requirements, development of technology is market-driven. And > although *we* don't like touch-screens and complaints of senior citizens > about them strike a chord with us, most people tend to like them and they > are far easier to maintain than are devices with buttons and dials that, > being mechanical devices, wear out easily. > > I agree that we should strive to educate technology vendors about our needs > but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to respond short of legal > sanctions. In this connection, while not the whole answer, our Technology > Bill of Rights would go a long way toward solving the problem. Even then, > however, we will still face some technology barriers in that innovation goes > on and, like it or not, it is geared toward the needs of the majority so we, > the blind, are and probably always will be playing catch-up. > > Mike Freeman > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Patrick Molloy > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 5:20 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Nicole, > I agree with you. New technology continues to be a stumbling block, at > least in part. However, I think the answer is twofold: First, we > should strive to educate the people in charge of leading technology > companies with regards to blindness. Second, there really should be a > law mandating all touch screens be accessible. However, I feel that > progress will come. As the number of Americans with vision > impairment/vision loss increases, technology will HAVE to be made > accessible. > Just my thoughts, > Patrick > > On 4/29/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > It continues to amaze me in how inaccessible new technologies can be. I > don't think that the people who design them are purposefully making them > inaccessible, but it is still very frustrating. For example, I just read a > paper about a virtual nurse agent that is designed to help patients > understand medical information before being discharged from the hospital. > Although the system does talk, it has several other features, including a > touchscreen and pointing at places in a print booklet, which would be > completely inaccessible to the blind. My question then is, besides > educating > people about blindness, is there something else that could be done? For > example, should there be a law that all touch screen devices have to be > accessible or have an option for accessibility? > The paper can be found at: > http://relationalagents.com/publications/CHI09.VirtualNurse.pdf > > Nicole > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.mol > loy%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Sun May 1 03:01:12 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 20:01:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness References: <4dbcaec3.a559e60a.2050.4fc6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: And it's not just with technology. It's with so many other things, such as books. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > We don't have that right; that's what we are trying to establish. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On Apr 30, 2011, at 17:51, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > >> I'll say this again. So, we're a minority. Who cares? Should that >> discourage us from at least trying to get all technology to be >> accessible? My answer is a resounding, "No!" We have as much of a right >> as anybody to have access to technology. We just need a few adaptations. >> Come on, guys, where's the NFB philosophy here? I can't be the only one >> on an NFB-NET list who believes that we deserve the right of access to >> technology and we need to fight for it! >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Freeman" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Date sent: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 19:24:46 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness >> >> Patrick et al: >> >> I wouldn't count on increased numbers of visually impaired people to >> drive >> technology development. Even if the number were to double, visually >> impaired people would still constitute a minority of the population. >> Short >> of legal requirements, development of technology is market-driven. And >> although *we* don't like touch-screens and complaints of senior citizens >> about them strike a chord with us, most people tend to like them and they >> are far easier to maintain than are devices with buttons and dials that, >> being mechanical devices, wear out easily. >> >> I agree that we should strive to educate technology vendors about our >> needs >> but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to respond short of legal >> sanctions. In this connection, while not the whole answer, our >> Technology >> Bill of Rights would go a long way toward solving the problem. Even >> then, >> however, we will still face some technology barriers in that innovation >> goes >> on and, like it or not, it is geared toward the needs of the majority so >> we, >> the blind, are and probably always will be playing catch-up. >> >> Mike Freeman >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Patrick Molloy >> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 5:20 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness >> >> Nicole, >> I agree with you. New technology continues to be a stumbling block, at >> least in part. However, I think the answer is twofold: First, we >> should strive to educate the people in charge of leading technology >> companies with regards to blindness. Second, there really should be a >> law mandating all touch screens be accessible. However, I feel that >> progress will come. As the number of Americans with vision >> impairment/vision loss increases, technology will HAVE to be made >> accessible. >> Just my thoughts, >> Patrick >> >> On 4/29/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >> wrote: >> It continues to amaze me in how inaccessible new technologies can be. I >> don't think that the people who design them are purposefully making them >> inaccessible, but it is still very frustrating. For example, I just read >> a >> paper about a virtual nurse agent that is designed to help patients >> understand medical information before being discharged from the hospital. >> Although the system does talk, it has several other features, including a >> touchscreen and pointing at places in a print booklet, which would be >> completely inaccessible to the blind. My question then is, besides >> educating >> people about blindness, is there something else that could be done? For >> example, should there be a law that all touch screen devices have to be >> accessible or have an option for accessibility? >> The paper can be found at: >> http://relationalagents.com/publications/CHI09.VirtualNurse.pdf >> >> Nicole >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.mol >> loy%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sun May 1 03:04:15 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 23:04:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] at&T question Message-ID: <16BA0F29-27B3-467A-93FC-A1856443BC51@gmail.com> Hi all: As some of you may know, AT&T bought T-Mobile about 2 weeks ago. My question is: I'm an AT&T customer, but since the 2 companies are now one, can I still ask for the NFB discount? Thanks, Jorge From k7uij at panix.com Sun May 1 02:51:18 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 19:51:18 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: <4dbcaec3.a559e60a.2050.4fc6@mx.google.com> References: <4dbcaec3.a559e60a.2050.4fc6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: We don't have that right; that's what we are trying to establish. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On Apr 30, 2011, at 17:51, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > I'll say this again. So, we're a minority. Who cares? Should that discourage us from at least trying to get all technology to be accessible? My answer is a resounding, "No!" We have as much of a right as anybody to have access to technology. We just need a few adaptations. Come on, guys, where's the NFB philosophy here? I can't be the only one on an NFB-NET list who believes that we deserve the right of access to technology and we need to fight for it! > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date sent: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 19:24:46 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Patrick et al: > > I wouldn't count on increased numbers of visually impaired people to drive > technology development. Even if the number were to double, visually > impaired people would still constitute a minority of the population. Short > of legal requirements, development of technology is market-driven. And > although *we* don't like touch-screens and complaints of senior citizens > about them strike a chord with us, most people tend to like them and they > are far easier to maintain than are devices with buttons and dials that, > being mechanical devices, wear out easily. > > I agree that we should strive to educate technology vendors about our needs > but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to respond short of legal > sanctions. In this connection, while not the whole answer, our Technology > Bill of Rights would go a long way toward solving the problem. Even then, > however, we will still face some technology barriers in that innovation goes > on and, like it or not, it is geared toward the needs of the majority so we, > the blind, are and probably always will be playing catch-up. > > Mike Freeman > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Patrick Molloy > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 5:20 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Nicole, > I agree with you. New technology continues to be a stumbling block, at > least in part. However, I think the answer is twofold: First, we > should strive to educate the people in charge of leading technology > companies with regards to blindness. Second, there really should be a > law mandating all touch screens be accessible. However, I feel that > progress will come. As the number of Americans with vision > impairment/vision loss increases, technology will HAVE to be made > accessible. > Just my thoughts, > Patrick > > On 4/29/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > It continues to amaze me in how inaccessible new technologies can be. I > don't think that the people who design them are purposefully making them > inaccessible, but it is still very frustrating. For example, I just read a > paper about a virtual nurse agent that is designed to help patients > understand medical information before being discharged from the hospital. > Although the system does talk, it has several other features, including a > touchscreen and pointing at places in a print booklet, which would be > completely inaccessible to the blind. My question then is, besides > educating > people about blindness, is there something else that could be done? For > example, should there be a law that all touch screen devices have to be > accessible or have an option for accessibility? > The paper can be found at: > http://relationalagents.com/publications/CHI09.VirtualNurse.pdf > > Nicole > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.mol > loy%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Sun May 1 07:47:32 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 03:47:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] at&T question In-Reply-To: <16BA0F29-27B3-467A-93FC-A1856443BC51@gmail.com> References: <16BA0F29-27B3-467A-93FC-A1856443BC51@gmail.com> Message-ID: T-Mobile is still operating as an independent company, and it will keep doing so for a while. So yes, you can probably do things just like you would usually do them. On Apr 30, 2011, at 11:04 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > Hi all: > As some of you may know, AT&T bought T-Mobile about 2 weeks ago. > My question is: I'm an AT&T customer, > but since the 2 companies are now one, > can I still ask for the NFB discount? > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Sun May 1 07:49:51 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 03:49:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: References: <4dbcaec3.a559e60a.2050.4fc6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <3DAFA2CF-4919-41BC-A0B7-B373BDE114DB@gmail.com> We do have the moral right to access all these things, but legally it doesn't work like that yet. Hopefully things will change soon though... On Apr 30, 2011, at 9:48 PM, wrote: > Chris, > Agree there! I'm tired of hearing oh we're the minority; true; but we have the right to access like everyone else. Touch screens are everywhere from airports to now, know where? The doctor's office! you can now self check in at the doctor's office via a screen and enter your social security number or something to prove you're that person! But we have no choice but to wait in line because we can't use the self check in without assistance. > I want accessible technology and I want companies to consider nonvisual access at the beginning; not an after thought. IMO remember > that most low vision people now are seniors or those adults losing vision from diabetes; so this would help lots of people out. The access should be audio because most people with vision loss do not know braille. > It does us no good to say oh we're the minority so we're just going to have to deal with i t and inconvenience someone to act as a reader. No, no. They need to make goods and services more accessible to us. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 8:51 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > I'll say this again. So, we're a minority. Who cares? Should > that discourage us from at least trying to get all technology to > be accessible? My answer is a resounding, "No!" We have as much > of a right as anybody to have access to technology. We just need > a few adaptations. Come on, guys, where's the NFB philosophy > here? I can't be the only one on an NFB-NET list who believes > that we deserve the right of access to technology and we need to > fight for it! > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 19:24:46 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Patrick et al: > > I wouldn't count on increased numbers of visually impaired people > to drive > technology development. Even if the number were to double, > visually > impaired people would still constitute a minority of the > population. Short > of legal requirements, development of technology is > market-driven. And > although *we* don't like touch-screens and complaints of senior > citizens > about them strike a chord with us, most people tend to like them > and they > are far easier to maintain than are devices with buttons and > dials that, > being mechanical devices, wear out easily. > > I agree that we should strive to educate technology vendors about > our needs > but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to respond short > of legal > sanctions. In this connection, while not the whole answer, our > Technology > Bill of Rights would go a long way toward solving the problem. > Even then, > however, we will still face some technology barriers in that > innovation goes > on and, like it or not, it is geared toward the needs of the > majority so we, > the blind, are and probably always will be playing catch-up. > > Mike Freeman > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Patrick Molloy > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 5:20 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Nicole, > I agree with you. New technology continues to be a stumbling > block, at > least in part. However, I think the answer is twofold: First, we > should strive to educate the people in charge of leading > technology > companies with regards to blindness. Second, there really should > be a > law mandating all touch screens be accessible. However, I feel > that > progress will come. As the number of Americans with vision > impairment/vision loss increases, technology will HAVE to be made > accessible. > Just my thoughts, > Patrick > > On 4/29/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > wrote: > It continues to amaze me in how inaccessible new technologies > can be. I > don't think that the people who design them are purposefully > making them > inaccessible, but it is still very frustrating. For example, I > just read a > paper about a virtual nurse agent that is designed to help > patients > understand medical information before being discharged from the > hospital. > Although the system does talk, it has several other features, > including a > touchscreen and pointing at places in a print booklet, which > would be > completely inaccessible to the blind. My question then is, > besides > educating > people about blindness, is there something else that could be > done? For > example, should there be a law that all touch screen devices > have to be > accessible or have an option for accessibility? > The paper can be found at: > http://relationalagents.com/publications/CHI09.VirtualNurse.pdf > > Nicole > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.mol > loy%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From seacknit at gmail.com Sun May 1 13:19:24 2011 From: seacknit at gmail.com (Sally Thomas) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 08:19:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] at&T question In-Reply-To: <16BA0F29-27B3-467A-93FC-A1856443BC51@gmail.com> References: <16BA0F29-27B3-467A-93FC-A1856443BC51@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5DD0710EFB71434B83952B58D52F15EF@OwnerPC> The time we were in the AT&T office they told us it would take about a year for the companies to be fully merged. At that time T-Mobile would disappear. I wonder what might happen to the T-Mobile discount. That said, I am a T-Mobile customer and I tried to get the discount. they said I had to prove I was a member of the NFB. I tried to find out how I could prove it but wasn't able to! Sally Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 10:04 PM Subject: [nabs-l] at&T question > Hi all: > As some of you may know, AT&T bought T-Mobile about 2 weeks ago. > My question is: I'm an AT&T customer, > but since the 2 companies are now one, > can I still ask for the NFB discount? > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun May 1 13:33:12 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 01 May 2011 09:33:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Message-ID: <4dbd6130.06a3e60a.353b.5311@mx.google.com> From dandrews at visi.com Sun May 1 13:39:34 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 01 May 2011 08:39:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] at&T question In-Reply-To: <16BA0F29-27B3-467A-93FC-A1856443BC51@gmail.com> References: <16BA0F29-27B3-467A-93FC-A1856443BC51@gmail.com> Message-ID: George: AT&T proposes to buy T-Mobile. It hasn't gone through yet -- that is it hasn't been approved by FCC, etc. I would guess it is at least a year away, and there is opposition to merger, so it may never happen. At this point, T-Mobile is as it was. Dave At 10:04 PM 4/30/2011, you wrote: >Hi all: >As some of you may know, AT&T bought T-Mobile about 2 weeks ago. >My question is: I'm an AT&T customer, >but since the 2 companies are now one, >can I still ask for the NFB discount? From k7uij at panix.com Sun May 1 16:53:58 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 09:53:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: <3DAFA2CF-4919-41BC-A0B7-B373BDE114DB@gmail.com> References: <4dbcaec3.a559e60a.2050.4fc6@mx.google.com> <3DAFA2CF-4919-41BC-A0B7-B373BDE114DB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <29A2B29E-5DF8-420D-BD56-903EFACD71BB@panix.com> An astute observation. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 1, 2011, at 0:49, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > We do have the moral right to access all these things, but legally it doesn't work like that yet. Hopefully things will change soon though... > On Apr 30, 2011, at 9:48 PM, wrote: > >> Chris, >> Agree there! I'm tired of hearing oh we're the minority; true; but we have the right to access like everyone else. Touch screens are everywhere from airports to now, know where? The doctor's office! you can now self check in at the doctor's office via a screen and enter your social security number or something to prove you're that person! But we have no choice but to wait in line because we can't use the self check in without assistance. >> I want accessible technology and I want companies to consider nonvisual access at the beginning; not an after thought. IMO remember >> that most low vision people now are seniors or those adults losing vision from diabetes; so this would help lots of people out. The access should be audio because most people with vision loss do not know braille. >> It does us no good to say oh we're the minority so we're just going to have to deal with i t and inconvenience someone to act as a reader. No, no. They need to make goods and services more accessible to us. >> >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum >> Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 8:51 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness >> >> I'll say this again. So, we're a minority. Who cares? Should >> that discourage us from at least trying to get all technology to >> be accessible? My answer is a resounding, "No!" We have as much >> of a right as anybody to have access to technology. We just need >> a few adaptations. Come on, guys, where's the NFB philosophy >> here? I can't be the only one on an NFB-NET list who believes >> that we deserve the right of access to technology and we need to >> fight for it! >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Freeman" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Date sent: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 19:24:46 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness >> >> Patrick et al: >> >> I wouldn't count on increased numbers of visually impaired people >> to drive >> technology development. Even if the number were to double, >> visually >> impaired people would still constitute a minority of the >> population. Short >> of legal requirements, development of technology is >> market-driven. And >> although *we* don't like touch-screens and complaints of senior >> citizens >> about them strike a chord with us, most people tend to like them >> and they >> are far easier to maintain than are devices with buttons and >> dials that, >> being mechanical devices, wear out easily. >> >> I agree that we should strive to educate technology vendors about >> our needs >> but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to respond short >> of legal >> sanctions. In this connection, while not the whole answer, our >> Technology >> Bill of Rights would go a long way toward solving the problem. >> Even then, >> however, we will still face some technology barriers in that >> innovation goes >> on and, like it or not, it is geared toward the needs of the >> majority so we, >> the blind, are and probably always will be playing catch-up. >> >> Mike Freeman >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Patrick Molloy >> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 5:20 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness >> >> Nicole, >> I agree with you. New technology continues to be a stumbling >> block, at >> least in part. However, I think the answer is twofold: First, we >> should strive to educate the people in charge of leading >> technology >> companies with regards to blindness. Second, there really should >> be a >> law mandating all touch screens be accessible. However, I feel >> that >> progress will come. As the number of Americans with vision >> impairment/vision loss increases, technology will HAVE to be made >> accessible. >> Just my thoughts, >> Patrick >> >> On 4/29/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >> wrote: >> It continues to amaze me in how inaccessible new technologies >> can be. I >> don't think that the people who design them are purposefully >> making them >> inaccessible, but it is still very frustrating. For example, I >> just read a >> paper about a virtual nurse agent that is designed to help >> patients >> understand medical information before being discharged from the >> hospital. >> Although the system does talk, it has several other features, >> including a >> touchscreen and pointing at places in a print booklet, which >> would be >> completely inaccessible to the blind. My question then is, >> besides >> educating >> people about blindness, is there something else that could be >> done? For >> example, should there be a law that all touch screen devices >> have to be >> accessible or have an option for accessibility? >> The paper can be found at: >> http://relationalagents.com/publications/CHI09.VirtualNurse.pdf >> >> Nicole >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.mol >> loy%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Sun May 1 19:31:11 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 12:31:11 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness References: <4dbd6130.06a3e60a.353b.5311@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Did anyone get the message to which I am responding as empty? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 6:33 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From k7uij at panix.com Sun May 1 19:36:30 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 12:36:30 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: References: <4dbd6130.06a3e60a.353b.5311@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5D27F863-8215-4F8A-B837-470A44D41836@panix.com> Yup. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 1, 2011, at 12:31, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" wrote: > Did anyone get the message to which I am responding as empty? > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 6:33 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sun May 1 19:58:22 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 15:58:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: References: <4dbd6130.06a3e60a.353b.5311@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <44F9116B-A730-4AA2-BEFA-DF00106D2E98@gmail.com> Yes. On May 1, 2011, at 3:31 PM, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > Did anyone get the message to which I am responding as empty? > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 6:33 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun May 1 20:49:17 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 01 May 2011 16:49:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Message-ID: <4dbdc765.1192e60a.5131.5aaf@mx.google.com> Hi, Nicole. That was an offlist message. Don't know why it was blank though. But when I sent it (from my BN) it said "error 302" and then said the email was sent. Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" References: <4dbcaec3.a559e60a.2050.4fc6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <004301cc0846$d7023200$85069600$@panix.com> Yup. Can you say "Reading Rights Coalition"? Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 8:01 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness And it's not just with technology. It's with so many other things, such as books. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > We don't have that right; that's what we are trying to establish. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On Apr 30, 2011, at 17:51, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > >> I'll say this again. So, we're a minority. Who cares? Should that >> discourage us from at least trying to get all technology to be >> accessible? My answer is a resounding, "No!" We have as much of a right >> as anybody to have access to technology. We just need a few adaptations. >> Come on, guys, where's the NFB philosophy here? I can't be the only one >> on an NFB-NET list who believes that we deserve the right of access to >> technology and we need to fight for it! >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Freeman" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Date sent: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 19:24:46 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness >> >> Patrick et al: >> >> I wouldn't count on increased numbers of visually impaired people to >> drive >> technology development. Even if the number were to double, visually >> impaired people would still constitute a minority of the population. >> Short >> of legal requirements, development of technology is market-driven. And >> although *we* don't like touch-screens and complaints of senior citizens >> about them strike a chord with us, most people tend to like them and they >> are far easier to maintain than are devices with buttons and dials that, >> being mechanical devices, wear out easily. >> >> I agree that we should strive to educate technology vendors about our >> needs >> but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to respond short of legal >> sanctions. In this connection, while not the whole answer, our >> Technology >> Bill of Rights would go a long way toward solving the problem. Even >> then, >> however, we will still face some technology barriers in that innovation >> goes >> on and, like it or not, it is geared toward the needs of the majority so >> we, >> the blind, are and probably always will be playing catch-up. >> >> Mike Freeman >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Patrick Molloy >> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 5:20 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness >> >> Nicole, >> I agree with you. New technology continues to be a stumbling block, at >> least in part. However, I think the answer is twofold: First, we >> should strive to educate the people in charge of leading technology >> companies with regards to blindness. Second, there really should be a >> law mandating all touch screens be accessible. However, I feel that >> progress will come. As the number of Americans with vision >> impairment/vision loss increases, technology will HAVE to be made >> accessible. >> Just my thoughts, >> Patrick >> >> On 4/29/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >> wrote: >> It continues to amaze me in how inaccessible new technologies can be. I >> don't think that the people who design them are purposefully making them >> inaccessible, but it is still very frustrating. For example, I just read >> a >> paper about a virtual nurse agent that is designed to help patients >> understand medical information before being discharged from the hospital. >> Although the system does talk, it has several other features, including a >> touchscreen and pointing at places in a print booklet, which would be >> completely inaccessible to the blind. My question then is, besides >> educating >> people about blindness, is there something else that could be done? For >> example, should there be a law that all touch screen devices have to be >> accessible or have an option for accessibility? >> The paper can be found at: >> http://relationalagents.com/publications/CHI09.VirtualNurse.pdf >> >> Nicole >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.mol >> loy%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecab le.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From k7uij at panix.com Sun May 1 21:34:31 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 14:34:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: References: <4dbcaec3.a559e60a.2050.4fc6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <004401cc0847$8f43fec0$adcbfc40$@panix.com> Ashley: Acting as Devil's advocate, what law gives us the right you say we have? It isn't in the Cponstitution nor is it in the civil Rihgts Act of 1964 as amended. The ADA *might* be stretched to cover it but probably not in that it was felt necessary to pass the Twenty-first Communications and Video Accessibility Act last year and even that doesn't guarantee you access to a large portion of technology. That's why we're proposing our Technology Bill of Rights. But, as Ignaci says, it's a moral right, not a legal right. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 6:48 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Chris, Agree there! I'm tired of hearing oh we're the minority; true; but we have the right to access like everyone else. Touch screens are everywhere from airports to now, know where? The doctor's office! you can now self check in at the doctor's office via a screen and enter your social security number or something to prove you're that person! But we have no choice but to wait in line because we can't use the self check in without assistance. I want accessible technology and I want companies to consider nonvisual access at the beginning; not an after thought. IMO remember that most low vision people now are seniors or those adults losing vision from diabetes; so this would help lots of people out. The access should be audio because most people with vision loss do not know braille. It does us no good to say oh we're the minority so we're just going to have to deal with i t and inconvenience someone to act as a reader. No, no. They need to make goods and services more accessible to us. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 8:51 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness I'll say this again. So, we're a minority. Who cares? Should that discourage us from at least trying to get all technology to be accessible? My answer is a resounding, "No!" We have as much of a right as anybody to have access to technology. We just need a few adaptations. Come on, guys, where's the NFB philosophy here? I can't be the only one on an NFB-NET list who believes that we deserve the right of access to technology and we need to fight for it! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" wrote: It continues to amaze me in how inaccessible new technologies can be. I don't think that the people who design them are purposefully making them inaccessible, but it is still very frustrating. For example, I just read a paper about a virtual nurse agent that is designed to help patients understand medical information before being discharged from the hospital. Although the system does talk, it has several other features, including a touchscreen and pointing at places in a print booklet, which would be completely inaccessible to the blind. My question then is, besides educating people about blindness, is there something else that could be done? For example, should there be a law that all touch screen devices have to be accessible or have an option for accessibility? The paper can be found at: http://relationalagents.com/publications/CHI09.VirtualNurse.pdf Nicole _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.mol loy%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun May 1 22:49:41 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 01 May 2011 18:49:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Message-ID: <4dbde39e.9c4de50a.4304.ffff87a5@mx.google.com> Okay, I'm gonna be like * really * NFB ignorant here, but what's the Reading Rights Coalition? Is that part of NAPUB (National Association to Promote the Use of Braille?" Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" wrote: I'll say this again. So, we're a minority. Who cares? Should that discourage us from at least trying to get all technology to be accessible? My answer is a resounding, "No!" We have as much of a right as anybody to have access to technology. We just need a few adaptations. Come on, guys, where's the NFB philosophy here? I can't be the only one on an NFB-NET list who believes that we deserve the right of access to technology and we need to fight for it! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" References: <4dbde39e.9c4de50a.4304.ffff87a5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I think so--don't quote me on it though. On May 1, 2011, at 6:49 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Okay, I'm gonna be like * really * NFB ignorant here, but what's the Reading Rights Coalition? Is that part of NAPUB (National Association to Promote the Use of Braille?" > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date sent: Sun, 1 May 2011 14:29:22 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Yup. Can you say "Reading Rights Coalition"? > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 8:01 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > And it's not just with technology. It's with so many other things, such as > books. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 7:51 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > > We don't have that right; that's what we are trying to establish. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On Apr 30, 2011, at 17:51, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > > I'll say this again. So, we're a minority. Who cares? Should that > discourage us from at least trying to get all technology to be > accessible? My answer is a resounding, "No!" We have as much of a right > as anybody to have access to technology. We just need a few adaptations. > > Come on, guys, where's the NFB philosophy here? I can't be the only one > on an NFB-NET list who believes that we deserve the right of access to > technology and we need to fight for it! > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 19:24:46 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Patrick et al: > > I wouldn't count on increased numbers of visually impaired people to > drive > technology development. Even if the number were to double, visually > impaired people would still constitute a minority of the population. > Short > of legal requirements, development of technology is market-driven. And > although *we* don't like touch-screens and complaints of senior citizens > about them strike a chord with us, most people tend to like them and they > are far easier to maintain than are devices with buttons and dials that, > being mechanical devices, wear out easily. > > I agree that we should strive to educate technology vendors about our > needs > but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to respond short of legal > sanctions. In this connection, while not the whole answer, our > Technology > Bill of Rights would go a long way toward solving the problem. Even > then, > however, we will still face some technology barriers in that innovation > goes > on and, like it or not, it is geared toward the needs of the majority so > we, > the blind, are and probably always will be playing catch-up. > > Mike Freeman > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Patrick Molloy > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 5:20 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Nicole, > I agree with you. New technology continues to be a stumbling block, at > least in part. However, I think the answer is twofold: First, we > should strive to educate the people in charge of leading technology > companies with regards to blindness. Second, there really should be a > law mandating all touch screens be accessible. However, I feel that > progress will come. As the number of Americans with vision > impairment/vision loss increases, technology will HAVE to be made > accessible. > Just my thoughts, > Patrick > > On 4/29/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > It continues to amaze me in how inaccessible new technologies can be. I > don't think that the people who design them are purposefully making them > inaccessible, but it is still very frustrating. For example, I just read > > a > paper about a virtual nurse agent that is designed to help patients > understand medical information before being discharged from the hospital. > Although the system does talk, it has several other features, including a > touchscreen and pointing at places in a print booklet, which would be > completely inaccessible to the blind. My question then is, besides > educating > people about blindness, is there something else that could be done? For > example, should there be a law that all touch screen devices have to be > accessible or have an option for accessibility? > The paper can be found at: > http://relationalagents.com/publications/CHI09.VirtualNurse.pdf > > Nicole > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.mol > loy%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecab > le.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun May 1 23:02:58 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 01 May 2011 19:02:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Message-ID: <4dbde6ba.c53edc0a.210c.084d@mx.google.com> Really? Stretch? The ADA? I'd doubt that one. It guarantees the right of all people with disabilities to access many pieces of technology along with other things. But, I do agree that there is still a lot of work to be done, hence the Technology Bill of Rights. Just FYI, I was at the LAW Program this year and talked to a few members of Congress. With some persuasion, Congressman Don Young from Alaska offered right then and there to not only cosponsor our Technology Bill of Rights when it is introduced in the House, but also take the lead in support of the bill. And big shocker, he's a Republican! At first he was doubtful of it, but once we told him that there are about 3.1 million blind people in the country who need this bill passed to access essential technology in home and work, he changed his mind. Awesome, isn't it? Also, my Congressman, Congressman Rosco Bartlett of Maryland will likely cosponsor the bill. We're making progress! Now, hopefully, the bill will be introduced. P.S. You can find the fact sheet and draft language at www.nfb.org. Please talk to your member of Congress and join in the fight for technology rights! Two is a start, but we need more! Please check out the draft language and fact sheet and talk to your member of Congress. Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" wrote: It continues to amaze me in how inaccessible new technologies can be. I don't think that the people who design them are purposefully making them inaccessible, but it is still very frustrating. For example, I just read a paper about a virtual nurse agent that is designed to help patients understand medical information before being discharged from the hospital. Although the system does talk, it has several other features, including a touchscreen and pointing at places in a print booklet, which would be completely inaccessible to the blind. My question then is, besides educating people about blindness, is there something else that could be done? For example, should there be a law that all touch screen devices have to be accessible or have an option for accessibility? The paper can be found at: http://relationalagents.com/publications/CHI09.VirtualNurse.pdf Nicole _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.mol loy%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma hb%40earthl ink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From th404 at comcast.net Sun May 1 23:04:57 2011 From: th404 at comcast.net (Tina Hansen) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 16:04:57 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness References: <4dbde39e.9c4de50a.4304.ffff87a5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <231260D57D6B4C209EE8288D2DBA9B0E@tinad85eb5cc31> Maybe I can explain. The Reading Rights Coalition is not officially affiliated with the NFB, but it's a consortium of organizations who have voiced their concerns about access to the Kindle and other mainstream electronic books. The coalition is made up of blindness organizations as well as organizations with other disabilities that make reading print difficult. The web site is www.readingrights.org Thanks. From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun May 1 23:10:54 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 01 May 2011 19:10:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Message-ID: <4dbde896.52a3e60a.3cef.5bca@mx.google.com> Hi, Tina. By the way, I believe you were the person who posted to the list about the NABS conference call archives. Don't know if you got the email I sent to the list, but I'd like to check those archives out, as I'm a new member. Where can you get them? Thanks for explaining. Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tina Hansen" References: <4dbde6ba.c53edc0a.210c.084d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <8C3D6CB8-008D-438A-AD07-D9419717F185@gmail.com> Thanks. I'm not surprised about Congressman Don Young, once you assure the right it won't choke business, they'll be right on it. On May 1, 2011, at 7:02 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Really? Stretch? The ADA? I'd doubt that one. It guarantees the right of all people with disabilities to access many pieces of technology along with other things. But, I do agree that there is still a lot of work to be done, hence the Technology Bill of Rights. Just FYI, I was at the LAW Program this year and talked to a few members of Congress. With some persuasion, Congressman Don Young from Alaska offered right then and there to not only cosponsor our Technology Bill of Rights when it is introduced in the House, but also take the lead in support of the bill. And big shocker, he's a Republican! At first he was doubtful of it, but once we told him that there are about 3.1 million blind people in the country who need this bill passed to access essential technology in home and work, he changed his mind. Awesome, isn't it? Also, my Congressman, Congressman Rosco Bartlett of Maryland will likely cosponsor the bill. We're making progress! Now, hopefully, the bill will be introduced. > P.S. You can find the fact sheet and draft language at www.nfb.org. Please talk to your member of Congress and join in the fight for technology rights! Two is a start, but we need more! Please check out the draft language and fact sheet and talk to your member of Congress. > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date sent: Sun, 1 May 2011 14:34:31 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Ashley: > > Acting as Devil's advocate, what law gives us the right you say we have? It > isn't in the Cponstitution nor is it in the civil Rihgts Act of 1964 as > amended. The ADA *might* be stretched to cover it but probably not in that > it was felt necessary to pass the Twenty-first Communications and Video > Accessibility Act last year and even that doesn't guarantee you access to a > large portion of technology. That's why we're proposing our Technology Bill > of Rights. But, as Ignaci says, it's a moral right, not a legal right. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net > Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 6:48 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Chris, > Agree there! I'm tired of hearing oh we're the minority; true; but we have > the right to access like everyone else. Touch screens are everywhere from > airports to now, know where? The doctor's office! you can now self check in > > at the doctor's office via a screen and enter your social security number > or something to prove you're that person! But we have no choice but to wait > > in line because we can't use the self check in without assistance. > I want accessible technology and I want companies to consider nonvisual > access at the beginning; not an after thought. IMO remember > that most low vision people now are seniors or those adults losing vision > from diabetes; so this would help lots of people out. The access should be > audio because most people with vision loss do not know braille. > It does us no good to say oh we're the minority so we're just going to have > to deal with i t and inconvenience someone to act as a reader. No, no. They > > need to make goods and services more accessible to us. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 8:51 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > I'll say this again. So, we're a minority. Who cares? Should > that discourage us from at least trying to get all technology to > be accessible? My answer is a resounding, "No!" We have as much > of a right as anybody to have access to technology. We just need > a few adaptations. Come on, guys, where's the NFB philosophy > here? I can't be the only one on an NFB-NET list who believes > that we deserve the right of access to technology and we need to > fight for it! > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 19:24:46 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Patrick et al: > > I wouldn't count on increased numbers of visually impaired people > to drive > technology development. Even if the number were to double, > visually > impaired people would still constitute a minority of the > population. Short > of legal requirements, development of technology is > market-driven. And > although *we* don't like touch-screens and complaints of senior > citizens > about them strike a chord with us, most people tend to like them > and they > are far easier to maintain than are devices with buttons and > dials that, > being mechanical devices, wear out easily. > > I agree that we should strive to educate technology vendors about > our needs > but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to respond short > of legal > sanctions. In this connection, while not the whole answer, our > Technology > Bill of Rights would go a long way toward solving the problem. > Even then, > however, we will still face some technology barriers in that > innovation goes > on and, like it or not, it is geared toward the needs of the > majority so we, > the blind, are and probably always will be playing catch-up. > > Mike Freeman > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Patrick Molloy > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 5:20 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Nicole, > I agree with you. New technology continues to be a stumbling > block, at > least in part. However, I think the answer is twofold: First, we > should strive to educate the people in charge of leading > technology > companies with regards to blindness. Second, there really should > be a > law mandating all touch screens be accessible. However, I feel > that > progress will come. As the number of Americans with vision > impairment/vision loss increases, technology will HAVE to be made > accessible. > Just my thoughts, > Patrick > > On 4/29/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > wrote: > It continues to amaze me in how inaccessible new technologies > can be. I > don't think that the people who design them are purposefully > making them > inaccessible, but it is still very frustrating. For example, I > just read a > paper about a virtual nurse agent that is designed to help > patients > understand medical information before being discharged from the > hospital. > Although the system does talk, it has several other features, > including a > touchscreen and pointing at places in a print booklet, which > would be > completely inaccessible to the blind. My question then is, > besides > educating > people about blindness, is there something else that could be > done? For > example, should there be a law that all touch screen devices > have to be > accessible or have an option for accessibility? > The paper can be found at: > http://relationalagents.com/publications/CHI09.VirtualNurse.pdf > > Nicole > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.mol > loy%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma > hb%40earthl > ink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From k7uij at panix.com Sun May 1 23:28:00 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 16:28:00 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: <4dbde6ba.c53edc0a.210c.084d@mx.google.com> References: <4dbde6ba.c53edc0a.210c.084d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <005301cc0857$6983bd00$3c8b3700$@panix.com> Chris: With respect, I beg to differ with you. The americans with disabilities Act only covers some telecommunications gear (mostly for the deaf); such coverage is outlined in title V. Such coverage of other accessibility issues as the ADA has are the result of the Department of Justice rightly ruling that cyberspace is a place of public accommodation. Even though I think this view makes sense, I am not at all convinced that it could be made to stick were the issue to be taken all the way to the Supreme Court. Let's hope so or, if not, that no one has the stomach to challenge this notion and take it all the way to the Supreme Court. Bravo on your efforts as part of the LAW program; every member of Congress signed on is one more vote for the bill. The kicker will be whether we can get the bill introduced during this time of political acrimony. I will say no more on this as I have no wish to start up what would be an inappropriate political argument on this list. If we are going to change the world, we need clear-eyed thinking and need to realize what current law covers, what it does not and why and what we need to change to make it assist us. And we must also decide what we do *not* need to ask for because we have the ingenuity to find means of getting the job done *without* asking the world to change to suit us. Some people (both members and nonmembers) these days find that concept a bit tough to swallow. But a sober-minded assessment of what we can do for ourselves and what we need to ask of the world is essential to make progress. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 4:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Really? Stretch? The ADA? I'd doubt that one. It guarantees the right of all people with disabilities to access many pieces of technology along with other things. But, I do agree that there is still a lot of work to be done, hence the Technology Bill of Rights. Just FYI, I was at the LAW Program this year and talked to a few members of Congress. With some persuasion, Congressman Don Young from Alaska offered right then and there to not only cosponsor our Technology Bill of Rights when it is introduced in the House, but also take the lead in support of the bill. And big shocker, he's a Republican! At first he was doubtful of it, but once we told him that there are about 3.1 million blind people in the country who need this bill passed to access essential technology in home and work, he changed his mind. Awesome, isn't it? Also, my Congressman, Congressman Rosco Bartlett of Maryland will likely cosponsor the bill. We're making progress! Now, hopefully, the bill will be introduced. P.S. You can find the fact sheet and draft language at www.nfb.org. Please talk to your member of Congress and join in the fight for technology rights! Two is a start, but we need more! Please check out the draft language and fact sheet and talk to your member of Congress. Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" wrote: It continues to amaze me in how inaccessible new technologies can be. I don't think that the people who design them are purposefully making them inaccessible, but it is still very frustrating. For example, I just read a paper about a virtual nurse agent that is designed to help patients understand medical information before being discharged from the hospital. Although the system does talk, it has several other features, including a touchscreen and pointing at places in a print booklet, which would be completely inaccessible to the blind. My question then is, besides educating people about blindness, is there something else that could be done? For example, should there be a law that all touch screen devices have to be accessible or have an option for accessibility? The paper can be found at: http://relationalagents.com/publications/CHI09.VirtualNurse.pdf Nicole _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.mol loy%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma hb%40earthl ink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun May 1 23:35:03 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 19:35:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: References: <4dbde39e.9c4de50a.4304.ffff87a5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <3FAFBEE2B50F4CD1ACDF10BF2442431F@OwnerPC> The reading right coalitions was a group that NFB worked with- a group of disability groups, to secure the right to read the books on Kendel; it came about when NFB protested the text to speech silence on Amozon's Kendell. I'm not sure they won though; was the coalition vs the author's guild. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 6:53 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness I think so--don't quote me on it though. On May 1, 2011, at 6:49 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Okay, I'm gonna be like * really * NFB ignorant here, but what's the > Reading Rights Coalition? Is that part of NAPUB (National Association to > Promote the Use of Braille?" > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Sun, 1 May 2011 14:29:22 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Yup. Can you say "Reading Rights Coalition"? > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 8:01 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > And it's not just with technology. It's with so many other things, such > as > books. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 7:51 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > > We don't have that right; that's what we are trying to establish. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On Apr 30, 2011, at 17:51, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > > I'll say this again. So, we're a minority. Who cares? Should that > discourage us from at least trying to get all technology to be > accessible? My answer is a resounding, "No!" We have as much of a right > as anybody to have access to technology. We just need a few adaptations. > > Come on, guys, where's the NFB philosophy here? I can't be the only one > on an NFB-NET list who believes that we deserve the right of access to > technology and we need to fight for it! > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 19:24:46 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Patrick et al: > > I wouldn't count on increased numbers of visually impaired people to > drive > technology development. Even if the number were to double, visually > impaired people would still constitute a minority of the population. > Short > of legal requirements, development of technology is market-driven. And > although *we* don't like touch-screens and complaints of senior citizens > about them strike a chord with us, most people tend to like them and they > are far easier to maintain than are devices with buttons and dials that, > being mechanical devices, wear out easily. > > I agree that we should strive to educate technology vendors about our > needs > but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to respond short of legal > sanctions. In this connection, while not the whole answer, our > Technology > Bill of Rights would go a long way toward solving the problem. Even > then, > however, we will still face some technology barriers in that innovation > goes > on and, like it or not, it is geared toward the needs of the majority so > we, > the blind, are and probably always will be playing catch-up. > > Mike Freeman > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Patrick Molloy > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 5:20 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Nicole, > I agree with you. New technology continues to be a stumbling block, at > least in part. However, I think the answer is twofold: First, we > should strive to educate the people in charge of leading technology > companies with regards to blindness. Second, there really should be a > law mandating all touch screens be accessible. However, I feel that > progress will come. As the number of Americans with vision > impairment/vision loss increases, technology will HAVE to be made > accessible. > Just my thoughts, > Patrick > > On 4/29/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > It continues to amaze me in how inaccessible new technologies can be. I > don't think that the people who design them are purposefully making them > inaccessible, but it is still very frustrating. For example, I just read > > a > paper about a virtual nurse agent that is designed to help patients > understand medical information before being discharged from the hospital. > Although the system does talk, it has several other features, including a > touchscreen and pointing at places in a print booklet, which would be > completely inaccessible to the blind. My question then is, besides > educating > people about blindness, is there something else that could be done? For > example, should there be a law that all touch screen devices have to be > accessible or have an option for accessibility? > The paper can be found at: > http://relationalagents.com/publications/CHI09.VirtualNurse.pdf > > Nicole > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.mol > loy%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecab > le.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun May 1 23:36:30 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 19:36:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: <231260D57D6B4C209EE8288D2DBA9B0E@tinad85eb5cc31> References: <4dbde39e.9c4de50a.4304.ffff87a5@mx.google.com> <231260D57D6B4C209EE8288D2DBA9B0E@tinad85eb5cc31> Message-ID: <4567CFFFCDEA45909C1018CEB7B2DCD9@OwnerPC> Glad to have the coalition website; and did the kindle become accessible? -----Original Message----- From: Tina Hansen Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 7:04 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Maybe I can explain. The Reading Rights Coalition is not officially affiliated with the NFB, but it's a consortium of organizations who have voiced their concerns about access to the Kindle and other mainstream electronic books. The coalition is made up of blindness organizations as well as organizations with other disabilities that make reading print difficult. The web site is www.readingrights.org Thanks. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From th404 at comcast.net Mon May 2 00:07:28 2011 From: th404 at comcast.net (Tina Hansen) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 17:07:28 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness References: <4dbde896.52a3e60a.3cef.5bca@mx.google.com> Message-ID: The link is: http://audio.nabslinkaudio.org/presentations/ Thanks. From k7uij at panix.com Mon May 2 01:25:47 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 18:25:47 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: <4567CFFFCDEA45909C1018CEB7B2DCD9@OwnerPC> References: <4dbde39e.9c4de50a.4304.ffff87a5@mx.google.com> <231260D57D6B4C209EE8288D2DBA9B0E@tinad85eb5cc31> <4567CFFFCDEA45909C1018CEB7B2DCD9@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <000101cc0867$ddafc740$990f55c0$@panix.com> Partly. But we're nowhere near there yet and some Kindle books still don't allow speech access. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 4:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Glad to have the coalition website; and did the kindle become accessible? -----Original Message----- From: Tina Hansen Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 7:04 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Maybe I can explain. The Reading Rights Coalition is not officially affiliated with the NFB, but it's a consortium of organizations who have voiced their concerns about access to the Kindle and other mainstream electronic books. The coalition is made up of blindness organizations as well as organizations with other disabilities that make reading print difficult. The web site is www.readingrights.org Thanks. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Mon May 2 01:44:44 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sun, 01 May 2011 21:44:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. Message-ID: <20110502014444.28861.22086@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> I say that disability is a form of diversity, so I wouldn't want to erase it. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hello all, > This is an interesting discussion, so I thought I'd pop in for a minute. > This question goes, at the root of it, to how you view disability. If > you view it as an aspect that creates diversity, then erasing it would > be like erasing races or different languages. If you view disability as > a disease, then logically the first response would be to want to cure it. > What do you guys think? > Briley > On Apr 27, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Jorge Paez wrote: >> Arielle: >> I think blindness does play a roll--in that it is just one of many >> things that make up an individual, >> and in a world where genetics would be preprogramed, >> it just be too perfect. >> It'd just bee too flawless--too artificial. >> I'm sure some people would want it--but a world in which blindness and >> other disabilities are completely eradicated would just be too artificial, >> almost like we literally managed to create our own world in a way. >> Worse, it would make it a whole lot worse for any blind who were born >> cause then everyone would consider them a scientific failure so to speak. >> Of course, >> I'm hypothetically talking about a very cold world in which science >> would create people which I hope would never happen but its a good >> talking point anyway. >> Jorge >> On Apr 27, 2011, at 12:08 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> We recently had a discussion about how we would react if some of our >>> blind friends could become sighted, and we asked whether it would be >>> reasonable for a sighted person to want to go blind. This made me >>> think of an interesting, although a bit painful, question: >>> Would the world be better off, worse off, or about the same if >>> blindness were completely eradicated, through genetic engineering >>> and/or mandatory treatment of all causes of blindness? >>> The question may sound silly, but for many vision researchers, >>> eradication of blindness is a real goal. But does the presence of >>> blind people in our society have any benefit to the society or the >>> world as a whole? >>> Certainly there are costs of having a small group of people in society >>> who read and travel using different techniques than the rest. These >>> specialized techniques have to be taught, technology has to be adapted >>> to their use and negative public attitudes prevent this minority of >>> people who do things differently from having full access to societal >>> goods and opportunities. So would it be cheaper and less >>> resource-demanding if everybody could use the same visual techniques >>> to accomplish life tasks? >>> On the other hand, you could perhaps argue that having people who use >>> different senses to do things in society is advantageous. Technology >>> is forced to innovate to become usable by those who don't have vision >>> as well as those who do. And conceivably, if a darkness plague struck >>> the planet, it would be better for the species if some of its members >>> could fully function without light. >>> What do you think? Should we as a society make an effort to get rid of >>> blindness? Or does blindness serve any kind of social function? >>> There obviously isn't a right answer here, but it's something that, >>> for better or for worse, could become relevant to us someday. >>> Arielle >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Mon May 2 01:52:54 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sun, 01 May 2011 21:52:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindtlk] FW: Blindness in the News Message-ID: <20110502015254.2190.91563@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> The best story was the one about the wedding. But really and truly, these stories, when taken together, paint a rather bleak picture of blind existance. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Hi, everyone. > Here are some blindness-related news stories from the past few > days you all might be interested in. Enjoy! > Chris Nusbaum > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > ---- Original Message ------ > From: "Roberthansen1970 at gmail.com" Subject: [Blindtlk] FW: Blindness in the News > Date sent: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:23:51 -0700 (PDT) > -----Original Message----- > From: "Robert Hansen" Sent: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:12:57 Pacific Daylight Time > To: "roberthansen1970 at gmail.com" > ,"conibodyworks at gmail.com" > ,"don.gillmore at gmail.com" > Subject: FW: Blindness in the News > From: crisintern > Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 2:07 PM > To: LIGHTHOUSE; zapemantus at earthlink.net; randyvirden at att.net > Subject: Blindness in the News > Blindness in the News > April 28, 2011 > 1. Company paints word pictures of the wedding for the visually > impaired > The Globe and Mail > April 27, 2011 > 2. Lack of funding may spell end of classes for visually > impaired > Daily News > April 25, 2011 > 3. Marine Drive crossings unsafe, say vision impaired > BC Local News > April 27, 2011 > 4. New device puts vision impaired in the picture > Physorg > April 28, 2011 > 1. Company paints word pictures of the wedding for the visually > impaired > ["Nobody puts on a show like the Royal Family": A member of the > household cavalry rides down the Mall adorned in Union flags > ahead of Friday's Royal wedding. | Reuters] > TORONTO - From Wednesday's Globe and Mail > Feast your ears on this: A Toronto-based media company will > provide a live described-video broadcast of the royal wedding so > that blind and low-sighted people across the country can enjoy > all the pomp and pageantry of the big day. > "An event like the royal wedding is something that we think > should be accessible to all Canadians," says David Errington, > president of Accessible Media Inc. > "It's the first time that any event of this magnitude has ever > been DV'd live," says producer Simone Cupid. > Described video is much different than colour commentary: It's an > art form unto itself, especially when done live, Cupid says. > "A colour commentator offers interesting facts and details, and > where we are and some history about that place, whereas we're > trying to fill in the gaps for somebody who doesn't have the > advantage of sight," she says. "It's our job to fill in the > crowd's expression when [Kate Middleton] comes out of the > carriage, her mother's expression the first time she sees her in > her wedding dress, William when he sees her coming down the > aisle, the frescoes that are painted on the ceiling of the > abbey." > The two "describers," Sarah Mennell and Ruth Barrett, were chosen > after an audition in which they described footage of the 1981 > wedding of Prince Charles and Lady Diana Spencer. > They are now busy researching everything from who will be in the > audience to the type of horses that will be pulling Middleton's > carriage. > "That's where the art comes in, is what's worth describing and > what isn't," Mennell says. "It's a question of learning to pick > out very quickly what you're seeing and what you want to convey > to an audience." > They are also learning to abide by the cardinal rule of described > video: "We refrain from using any turn of phrase or word that > pertains to sight," Cupid says. "So we would never say something > like, 'William looks at his bride,' because all you're doing is > reminding your audience that they can't look and they can't see." > There is a huge amount of hype surrounding the wedding, which is > guaranteed to be a massive spectacle, and describing it live to a > visually impaired audience is sure to be a massive challenge, > Barrett says. But it's also going to be a fun one. > "Nobody puts on a show like the Royal Family," she says. > The broadcast will be available on The Accessible Channel - > TACtv. > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/company-paints-word-pictures- > of-the-wedding-for-the-visually-impaired/article1999475/ > 2. Lack of funding may spell end of classes for visually > impaired > VAN NUYS: Lack of funding may shut down campus for visually > impaired. > Sarah Greenseid contentedly worked her yarn on a recent morning, > her perpetual smile not entirely masking the anxiety felt by the > visually impaired 99-year-old. > "It's really too bad, the possibility of the school not > continuing," Greenseid said during a textile arts class at the > Van Nuys School for the Blind, located in a rented classroom > behind St. Andrew's Lutheran Church. "It's a very important > part of everyone's life to have a place to come to where we can > share our same problems, interact and still have a class. > "I will be sad if it doesn't continue." > As the Daily News reported in 2010, the school, also known as > Visually Handicapped Adults of the Valley, is in a month-to-month > struggle to keep offering the two classes it's managed to sustain > this year. If the money isn't raised to cover classroom rental, > the 39-year-old operation will have to close on May 19. > The main reason for the school's dire financial straits is the > loss of its annual $75,000 Los Angeles Community Development > Department grant, due to budget cutbacks and a restructuring of > the agency's qualification criteria. > Fundraising campaigns have kept the school going, and there are > last-ditch efforts to stave off closure. > Ophthalmologists Kerry Assil and Thomas Tooma have each donated > $6,000 Lasik surgeries to be raffled off for the benefit of > Retinitis Pigmentosa International, the school's parent > organization, named for a genetic eye condition that leads to > incurable blindness. > Each $25 donated will earn an entry in the raffle. Other details > are at www.rpinternational.org. > "We hope that the donation from NVision Laser Eye Centers will > help RPI reach its financial goals to help save the Van Nuys > School for the Blind because its program provides training for > the social, emotional and physical implications related to losing > one's vision," Tooma said in an emailed statement. > "It is their lifeline to the light," Tooma continued. "Without > that school, they are in the dark. That darkness is interrupted > for at least 48 hours during the week when they go to the school. > It also provides them lunch and they are even sent home with > food." > Back at the St. Andrew's campus, close to a dozen visually > impaired people were diligently making their rugs, mufflers and > caps. > "I've been coming here for nine years; I also go to ceramics on > Monday," said Patricia O'Connor of West Hills, who was creating a > colorful wall hanging. "It's almost like a family to us, we've > been meeting here for so long and we enjoy it so much. > "It gives people who have vision problems something really > worthwhile to do, and we can see the benefits of our own work." > The school's search for a less-expensive venue has, so far, > proven fruitless. The church is not unsympathetic, but has its > own funding needs and rents out its campus to other > organizations, including a Montessori preschool, to make ends > meet. > "Our people are low-vision and many of them completely blind, so > it's tricky to find another place for them," noted Laura Carlone, > the school's site coordinator. "Here we have access to a kitchen > and the run of the place, along with the preschool." > For Greenseid, who began volunteering at the school 29 years ago > and became a student when her eyesight started to fail, the > weekly class has become an important part of her independent > existence. > "It keeps me busy," the Sherman Oaks nonagenarian said. "I do my > own cooking, bookkeeping, banking and some shopping. My > lifestyle is dependent on doing as much as I can as often as I > can. Coming here is one of my very high priorities. > "Every day that I come here is important," Greenseid added. "I > relate to the students and it's very rewarding. It's a way from > them to get out of their homes." > http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_17925739 > 3. Marine Drive crossings unsafe, say vision impaired > [EyeDeal_4698.jpg] > A group of vision-impaired West Vancouver residents are sounding > the alarm on the district's pedestrian crossings. > Eye Deal, a four-year-old association with 35 members, is > concerned about the allotted time for pedestrians at the > municipality's crossing, particularly the lights along Marine > Drive. > "Our fear is the vision impaired do not have the time to cross > before the lights change," said Blair Baillie, the association's > honorary secretary. > Even with his sight, Baillie said, he sometimes finds it > difficult to make it to the other side before the flashing hand > appears. > In addition, not all the crossings have sound indicators to let > the blind and vision impaired know when it's safe to leave the > sidewalk, he noted. > These factors make vision impaired people nervous, Baillie said. > Often they'll rely on sighted pedestrians but it's not always an > option, he said. > "It just seems to me there are a bunch of things we should and > could be doing," Baillie said. > The organization has approached the district before with its > concerns. This time they're taking them to the engineers. > The district's pedestrian-timed signals are set up to allow > people one second to cover one to 1.2 metres. If anything, the > time allotment is generous compared to other municipalities, said > Raymond Fung, the district's director of engineering and > transportation. > There is a general misunderstanding regarding what each signal > means, he said. The walk sign indicates when one can safely > leave the sidewalk, while the hand requires one to stay on the > curb - it does not indicate a person should already be across the > street. > Between 11th and 19th along Marine Drive, five of the eight > traffic lights have audible pedestrian signals. The district is > adding the beepers as it upgrades intersections, Fung said. > The municipality has an accessibility and inclusion policy. > Recommendations from the Advisory Committee for Disability - such > as fitting audible walk signs, creating accessible transit > shelters and insuring grades are suitable for people in > wheelchairs to board busses - have been adopted over the years. > Creating intersections that facilitate pedestrians' requirements > and traffic follow is always juggling act, Fung said. > "We have to balance the needs," he said. > Eye Deal > Eye Deal aims to spotlight all issues affecting visually impaired > people in the district. The association recently extended its > membership to include all age groups. It organizes everything > from transportation to outings downtown to supplying talking > books to members to information sessions. "We are looking for > more volunteers," Baillie said. "There are more things we would > like to do." > http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/120808764.html > 4. New device puts vision impaired in the picture > (PhysOrg.com) -- Visually impaired people may soon have greater > access to graphical information thanks to a new device developed > by Monash University's Faculty of Information and Technology. > The device, called GraVVITAS, is a standard tablet PC with touch > screen technology that uses vibration and sounds to guide the > visually impaired user around a diagram. > It is designed to enable the user to build a picture of the > entire graphic in their mind. > Currently, visually impaired students are using tactile diagrams > to understand graphics. These raised shapes and textures are > produced on a particular type of paper by special purpose > printers, known as embossers. This method can prove to be > extremely costly and can take months to produce a textbook. > The Faculty of Information and Technology's Professor Kim > Marriott and PhD student Cagatay Goncu are working with Vision > Australia to develop the new technology, that will make accessing > diagrams for visually impaired students easier. > "The idea stemmed from a visually impaired student that I had > years ago in a unit that was very diagrammatic," Professor > Marriott said. > "This particular student had major problems understanding the > diagrams using the methods that were available to them at the > time. We wanted to try to increase accessibility to diagrams and > graphics in educational material, which is a huge issue for the > visually impaired." > The device, which is currently a prototype, has small external > vibrating motors that attach to the user's fingers. These motors > buzz when an object displayed on the screen is touched. > Cagatay Goncu said voice prompts and sounds also help to guide > the user to read the diagram. > "The basic idea is to guide the user to find the object by using > sound. Touching the object causes the sound to stop and a voice > explains what that object is and any other information associated > with it," Mr. Goncu said. > "If it's something on the left side, you will hear something in > your left ear and vice-versa." > Developing the technology has involved extensive testing with > visually impaired volunteers, which has allowed researchers to > have a better understanding of how they read diagrams. > The next stage of development will involve collaborating with > haptic feedback specialists from the Faculty of Engineering who > will further refine the touch technology associated with the > device. > http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-04-device-vision-impaired-pictur > e.html > The information transmitted is intended only for the person or > entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and > privileged material. Unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or > distribution is prohibited. If you receive this > material/information in error, please contact the sender and > destroy the material/information. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Mon May 2 01:57:10 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 21:57:10 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: <000101cc0867$ddafc740$990f55c0$@panix.com> References: <4dbde39e.9c4de50a.4304.ffff87a5@mx.google.com> <231260D57D6B4C209EE8288D2DBA9B0E@tinad85eb5cc31> <4567CFFFCDEA45909C1018CEB7B2DCD9@OwnerPC> <000101cc0867$ddafc740$990f55c0$@panix.com> Message-ID: Is it true they're not allowing it because "its a market?" In other words, they wanna record text to speech engines reading books to sell as part of mainstream sales later on and so they're not allowing it in current devices. On May 1, 2011, at 9:25 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > Partly. But we're nowhere near there yet and some Kindle books still don't > allow speech access. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 4:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Glad to have the coalition website; and did the kindle become accessible? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tina Hansen > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 7:04 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Maybe I can explain. The Reading Rights Coalition is not officially > affiliated with the NFB, but it's a consortium of organizations who have > voiced their concerns about access to the Kindle and other mainstream > electronic books. The coalition is made up of blindness organizations as > well as organizations with other disabilities that make reading print > difficult. The web site is > > www.readingrights.org > > Thanks. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Mon May 2 01:58:15 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 21:58:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. In-Reply-To: <20110502014444.28861.22086@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> References: <20110502014444.28861.22086@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: <361E0D99-0AA3-45A6-BE04-3EDC7C6EB6A8@gmail.com> Same here Jedi. On May 1, 2011, at 9:44 PM, Jedi wrote: > I say that disability is a form of diversity, so I wouldn't want to erase it. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> Hello all, > >> This is an interesting discussion, so I thought I'd pop in for a minute. > >> This question goes, at the root of it, to how you view disability. If you view it as an aspect that creates diversity, then erasing it would be like erasing races or different languages. If you view disability as a disease, then logically the first response would be to want to cure it. > >> What do you guys think? > >> Briley >> On Apr 27, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >>> Arielle: >>> I think blindness does play a roll--in that it is just one of many things that make up an individual, >>> and in a world where genetics would be preprogramed, >>> it just be too perfect. >>> It'd just bee too flawless--too artificial. >>> I'm sure some people would want it--but a world in which blindness and other disabilities are completely eradicated would just be too artificial, >>> almost like we literally managed to create our own world in a way. > >>> Worse, it would make it a whole lot worse for any blind who were born cause then everyone would consider them a scientific failure so to speak. >>> Of course, >>> I'm hypothetically talking about a very cold world in which science would create people which I hope would never happen but its a good talking point anyway. > >>> Jorge > > >>> On Apr 27, 2011, at 12:08 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >>>> Hi all, > >>>> We recently had a discussion about how we would react if some of our >>>> blind friends could become sighted, and we asked whether it would be >>>> reasonable for a sighted person to want to go blind. This made me >>>> think of an interesting, although a bit painful, question: >>>> Would the world be better off, worse off, or about the same if >>>> blindness were completely eradicated, through genetic engineering >>>> and/or mandatory treatment of all causes of blindness? >>>> The question may sound silly, but for many vision researchers, >>>> eradication of blindness is a real goal. But does the presence of >>>> blind people in our society have any benefit to the society or the >>>> world as a whole? > >>>> Certainly there are costs of having a small group of people in society >>>> who read and travel using different techniques than the rest. These >>>> specialized techniques have to be taught, technology has to be adapted >>>> to their use and negative public attitudes prevent this minority of >>>> people who do things differently from having full access to societal >>>> goods and opportunities. So would it be cheaper and less >>>> resource-demanding if everybody could use the same visual techniques >>>> to accomplish life tasks? >>>> On the other hand, you could perhaps argue that having people who use >>>> different senses to do things in society is advantageous. Technology >>>> is forced to innovate to become usable by those who don't have vision >>>> as well as those who do. And conceivably, if a darkness plague struck >>>> the planet, it would be better for the species if some of its members >>>> could fully function without light. > >>>> What do you think? Should we as a society make an effort to get rid of >>>> blindness? Or does blindness serve any kind of social function? >>>> There obviously isn't a right answer here, but it's something that, >>>> for better or for worse, could become relevant to us someday. > >>>> Arielle > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Mon May 2 02:14:55 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sun, 01 May 2011 22:14:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Message-ID: <20110502021455.20538.11308@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> No, it's an alliance of several disability-related organizations made of people who can't read standard print for whatever reason. The NFB is one group in this alliance. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Okay, I'm gonna be like * really * NFB ignorant here, but what's > the Reading Rights Coalition? Is that part of NAPUB (National > Association to Promote the Use of Braille?" > Chris Nusbaum > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Sun, 1 May 2011 14:29:22 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > Yup. Can you say "Reading Rights Coalition"? > Mike > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 8:01 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > And it's not just with technology. It's with so many other > things, such as > books. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 7:51 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > We don't have that right; that's what we are trying to > establish. > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > On Apr 30, 2011, at 17:51, Chris Nusbaum > wrote: > I'll say this again. So, we're a minority. Who cares? Should > that > discourage us from at least trying to get all technology to be > accessible? My answer is a resounding, "No!" We have as much of > a right > as anybody to have access to technology. We just need a few > adaptations. > Come on, guys, where's the NFB philosophy here? I can't be the > only one > on an NFB-NET list who believes that we deserve the right of > access to > technology and we need to fight for it! > Chris Nusbaum > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities > motto) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 19:24:46 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > Patrick et al: > I wouldn't count on increased numbers of visually impaired > people to > drive > technology development. Even if the number were to double, > visually > impaired people would still constitute a minority of the > population. > Short > of legal requirements, development of technology is > market-driven. And > although *we* don't like touch-screens and complaints of senior > citizens > about them strike a chord with us, most people tend to like them > and they > are far easier to maintain than are devices with buttons and > dials that, > being mechanical devices, wear out easily. > I agree that we should strive to educate technology vendors > about our > needs > but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to respond short > of legal > sanctions. In this connection, while not the whole answer, our > Technology > Bill of Rights would go a long way toward solving the problem. > Even > then, > however, we will still face some technology barriers in that > innovation > goes > on and, like it or not, it is geared toward the needs of the > majority so > we, > the blind, are and probably always will be playing catch-up. > Mike Freeman > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Patrick Molloy > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 5:20 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > Nicole, > I agree with you. New technology continues to be a stumbling > block, at > least in part. However, I think the answer is twofold: First, > we > should strive to educate the people in charge of leading > technology > companies with regards to blindness. Second, there really > should be a > law mandating all touch screens be accessible. However, I feel > that > progress will come. As the number of Americans with vision > impairment/vision loss increases, technology will HAVE to be > made > accessible. > Just my thoughts, > Patrick > On 4/29/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > wrote: > It continues to amaze me in how inaccessible new technologies > can be. I > don't think that the people who design them are purposefully > making them > inaccessible, but it is still very frustrating. For example, I > just read > a > paper about a virtual nurse agent that is designed to help > patients > understand medical information before being discharged from the > hospital. > Although the system does talk, it has several other features, > including a > touchscreen and pointing at places in a print booklet, which > would be > completely inaccessible to the blind. My question then is, > besides > educating > people about blindness, is there something else that could be > done? For > example, should there be a law that all touch screen devices > have to be > accessible or have an option for accessibility? > The paper can be found at: > http://relationalagents.com/publications/CHI09.VirtualNurse.pdf > Nicole > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.mol > loy%40gmail > .com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecab > le.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From k7uij at panix.com Mon May 2 04:23:29 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 21:23:29 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: References: <4dbde39e.9c4de50a.4304.ffff87a5@mx.google.com> <231260D57D6B4C209EE8288D2DBA9B0E@tinad85eb5cc31> <4567CFFFCDEA45909C1018CEB7B2DCD9@OwnerPC> <000101cc0867$ddafc740$990f55c0$@panix.com> Message-ID: <001401cc0880$b16600f0$143202d0$@panix.com> I don't think they're planning to actively market the value of text-to-speech as an audio medium. You'd have to ask Dr. Maurer or others involved in negotiations with publishers but I suspect that ultimately it's little more than a knee-jerk reaction to the word "audio". They *do* get quite a bit of money from human-read audio books so probably figure that allowing blanket use of text-to-speech would cut into this market or set a precedence for audio to be free. Both assertions are ridiculous. But their reasoning is so obscure and irrational to me that I truly can't answer the question intelligently. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jorge Paez Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 6:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Is it true they're not allowing it because "its a market?" In other words, they wanna record text to speech engines reading books to sell as part of mainstream sales later on and so they're not allowing it in current devices. On May 1, 2011, at 9:25 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > Partly. But we're nowhere near there yet and some Kindle books still > don't allow speech access. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 4:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Glad to have the coalition website; and did the kindle become accessible? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tina Hansen > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 7:04 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Maybe I can explain. The Reading Rights Coalition is not officially > affiliated with the NFB, but it's a consortium of organizations who > have voiced their concerns about access to the Kindle and other > mainstream electronic books. The coalition is made up of blindness > organizations as well as organizations with other disabilities that > make reading print difficult. The web site is > > www.readingrights.org > > Thanks. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40 > earthl > ink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix. > com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjo > rgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From k7uij at panix.com Mon May 2 04:25:10 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 21:25:10 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. In-Reply-To: <20110502014444.28861.22086@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> References: <20110502014444.28861.22086@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: <001501cc0880$ed3c9b70$c7b5d250$@panix.com> That presumes that diversity always equals benefit. You and I are going to have to differ on this one. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 6:45 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. I say that disability is a form of diversity, so I wouldn't want to erase it. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hello all, > This is an interesting discussion, so I thought I'd pop in for a minute. > This question goes, at the root of it, to how you view disability. If > you view it as an aspect that creates diversity, then erasing it would > be like erasing races or different languages. If you view disability > as a disease, then logically the first response would be to want to cure it. > What do you guys think? > Briley > On Apr 27, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Jorge Paez wrote: >> Arielle: >> I think blindness does play a roll--in that it is just one of many >> things that make up an individual, and in a world where genetics >> would be preprogramed, it just be too perfect. >> It'd just bee too flawless--too artificial. >> I'm sure some people would want it--but a world in which blindness >> and other disabilities are completely eradicated would just be too >> artificial, almost like we literally managed to create our own world in a way. >> Worse, it would make it a whole lot worse for any blind who were born >> cause then everyone would consider them a scientific failure so to speak. >> Of course, >> I'm hypothetically talking about a very cold world in which science >> would create people which I hope would never happen but its a good >> talking point anyway. >> Jorge >> On Apr 27, 2011, at 12:08 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> We recently had a discussion about how we would react if some of our >>> blind friends could become sighted, and we asked whether it would be >>> reasonable for a sighted person to want to go blind. This made me >>> think of an interesting, although a bit painful, question: >>> Would the world be better off, worse off, or about the same if >>> blindness were completely eradicated, through genetic engineering >>> and/or mandatory treatment of all causes of blindness? >>> The question may sound silly, but for many vision researchers, >>> eradication of blindness is a real goal. But does the presence of >>> blind people in our society have any benefit to the society or the >>> world as a whole? >>> Certainly there are costs of having a small group of people in >>> society who read and travel using different techniques than the >>> rest. These specialized techniques have to be taught, technology has >>> to be adapted to their use and negative public attitudes prevent >>> this minority of people who do things differently from having full >>> access to societal goods and opportunities. So would it be cheaper >>> and less resource-demanding if everybody could use the same visual >>> techniques to accomplish life tasks? >>> On the other hand, you could perhaps argue that having people who >>> use different senses to do things in society is advantageous. >>> Technology is forced to innovate to become usable by those who don't >>> have vision as well as those who do. And conceivably, if a darkness >>> plague struck the planet, it would be better for the species if some >>> of its members could fully function without light. >>> What do you think? Should we as a society make an effort to get rid >>> of blindness? Or does blindness serve any kind of social function? >>> There obviously isn't a right answer here, but it's something that, >>> for better or for worse, could become relevant to us someday. >>> Arielle >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertech >>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%40gma >> il.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi% > 40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon May 2 04:31:32 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 00:31:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material Message-ID: Hi all, College texts are full of words and examples. Frustrating when you cannot skim through especially when you need the highlights for a test. I take notes when reading. But my notes don’t always amount to what the professor tells us to study for the test, if they tell us. So what do you do when the professor has a study guide? Some students take it and jot down the coresponding pages to the study topics and study those pages. How do you use it? Sometimes professors give a list of terms/concepts to study or a list of questions to guide your preparation. My communication professor outlined on the board what concepts we needed to know for our final. But here’s the thing. I cannot skim the text or look up words. My notes may or may not have them. Even if they do, its still looking for a needle in a haystack when reviewing for finals! So I’ve usually had to ask a reader; they act as my eyes and look in the index for the key words or skim for the key words or headings in the chapter. For me, I usually use audio whenever possible. But even with e-texts, I cannot skim because I don’t know the exact phrase and without that the computer does Not know what to look for; also it is divided in to chapters and I cannot search across chapters. Another thing, how do you work with open book exams? Do you have a reader there and they look up any info from the book? That is what I’ve done. Again, openbook tests let you use it as a reference tool, but that is hard for us. So any tips for studying or “skimming” would be good. How can you direct a reader to actually skim? Usually they will read too much to me rather than just the main paragraph of the topic; generally under the main headings I find the introduction to the concept and smaller headings tell you details/examples. Ashley From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Mon May 2 04:51:36 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 21:51:36 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. References: <20110502014444.28861.22086@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <001501cc0880$ed3c9b70$c7b5d250$@panix.com> Message-ID: <35A8C8C2D1704C40964C5A5C52B6D7D9@stanford.edu> I like and greatly appreciate your willingness to agree to disagree. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 9:25 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. > That presumes that diversity always equals benefit. You and I are going > to > have to differ on this one. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Jedi > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 6:45 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. > > I say that disability is a form of diversity, so I wouldn't want to erase > it. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> Hello all, > >> This is an interesting discussion, so I thought I'd pop in for a minute. > >> This question goes, at the root of it, to how you view disability. If >> you view it as an aspect that creates diversity, then erasing it would >> be like erasing races or different languages. If you view disability >> as a disease, then logically the first response would be to want to cure > it. > >> What do you guys think? > >> Briley >> On Apr 27, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >>> Arielle: >>> I think blindness does play a roll--in that it is just one of many >>> things that make up an individual, and in a world where genetics >>> would be preprogramed, it just be too perfect. >>> It'd just bee too flawless--too artificial. >>> I'm sure some people would want it--but a world in which blindness >>> and other disabilities are completely eradicated would just be too >>> artificial, almost like we literally managed to create our own world in >>> a > way. > >>> Worse, it would make it a whole lot worse for any blind who were born >>> cause then everyone would consider them a scientific failure so to >>> speak. >>> Of course, >>> I'm hypothetically talking about a very cold world in which science >>> would create people which I hope would never happen but its a good >>> talking point anyway. > >>> Jorge > > >>> On Apr 27, 2011, at 12:08 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >>>> Hi all, > >>>> We recently had a discussion about how we would react if some of our >>>> blind friends could become sighted, and we asked whether it would be >>>> reasonable for a sighted person to want to go blind. This made me >>>> think of an interesting, although a bit painful, question: >>>> Would the world be better off, worse off, or about the same if >>>> blindness were completely eradicated, through genetic engineering >>>> and/or mandatory treatment of all causes of blindness? >>>> The question may sound silly, but for many vision researchers, >>>> eradication of blindness is a real goal. But does the presence of >>>> blind people in our society have any benefit to the society or the >>>> world as a whole? > >>>> Certainly there are costs of having a small group of people in >>>> society who read and travel using different techniques than the >>>> rest. These specialized techniques have to be taught, technology has >>>> to be adapted to their use and negative public attitudes prevent >>>> this minority of people who do things differently from having full >>>> access to societal goods and opportunities. So would it be cheaper >>>> and less resource-demanding if everybody could use the same visual >>>> techniques to accomplish life tasks? >>>> On the other hand, you could perhaps argue that having people who >>>> use different senses to do things in society is advantageous. >>>> Technology is forced to innovate to become usable by those who don't >>>> have vision as well as those who do. And conceivably, if a darkness >>>> plague struck the planet, it would be better for the species if some >>>> of its members could fully function without light. > >>>> What do you think? Should we as a society make an effort to get rid >>>> of blindness? Or does blindness serve any kind of social function? >>>> There obviously isn't a right answer here, but it's something that, >>>> for better or for worse, could become relevant to us someday. > >>>> Arielle > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertech >>>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%40gma >>> il.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi% >> 40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From eventhorizon315 at frontier.com Mon May 2 10:55:38 2011 From: eventhorizon315 at frontier.com (Bill) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 05:55:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7610DDCE367F4D328BB02B70A808AA0B@Bill> Hello, What I have found helpful is if you select all the text in each chapter and paste it in a new document you can do a word or phrase search and then you can save some time. Also you could separate the index and/or glossary in its own document, convert it into a text document and place it in your Reader stream for convenience. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 11:31 PM Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > Hi all, > > College texts are full of words and examples. Frustrating when you cannot > skim through especially when you need the highlights for a test. > I take notes when reading. But my notes don’t always amount to what the > professor tells us to study for the test, if they tell us. > > So what do you do when the professor has a study guide? > Some students take it and jot down the coresponding pages to the study > topics and study those pages. > How do you use it? > Sometimes professors give a list of terms/concepts to study or a list of > questions to guide your preparation. My communication professor outlined > on the board what concepts we needed to know for our final. > But here’s the thing. I cannot skim the text or look up words. My notes > may or may not have them. Even if they do, its still looking for a needle > in a haystack when reviewing for finals! So I’ve usually had to ask a > reader; they act as my eyes and look in the index for the key words or > skim for the key words or headings in the chapter. > > For me, I usually use audio whenever possible. But even with e-texts, I > cannot skim because I don’t know the exact phrase and without that the > computer does Not know what to look for; also > it is divided in to chapters and I cannot search across chapters. > Another thing, how do you work with open book exams? > Do you have a reader there and they look up any info from the book? That > is what I’ve done. > Again, openbook tests let you use it as a reference tool, but that is > hard for us. > > So any tips for studying or “skimming” would be good. How can you direct > a reader to actually skim? Usually they will read too much to me rather > than just the main paragraph of the topic; generally under the main > headings I find the introduction to the concept and smaller headings tell > you details/examples. > > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/eventhorizon315%40frontier.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon May 2 19:55:12 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 02 May 2011 15:55:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Message-ID: <4dbf0c3a.42abe60a.5d2a.6b95@mx.google.com> Thanks! I'll check that out. One more question, when is the next NABS conference call and can you send me the number and code to get in? Thanks! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tina Hansen" Being Devil's advocate, what negativity does diversity have? Diversity, by definition, isn't good nor bad, but just different. So, what is the negative impact of diversity on... who, society? Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" I totally agree! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jedi That's their argument, but it makes no sense to me. There are about 3.1 million blind people in the country. So the authors really would be getting * more * money from * more * customers wanting to buy and read their books, but can't because the E-books are inaccessible and only 5 percent of books are available in Braille. I don't get it! If they're worried about money from sold books so much, then they should be happy that in enableing text-to-speech on E-book readers like the Kindle, there would be more books sold. Therefore, by enableing TTS on the Kindle, the revenue from sold books coming into the authors would be * raised, * not lowered! See the iPad, hint hint. Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez I=20don't=20know=20whether=20you=20use=20a=20computer=20or=20notetaker=20to= =20read=20 E-texts,=20but=20if=20you=20have=20JAWS=20on=20a=20computer=20or=20use=20a= =20Braille-Note=20 BT,=20you=20can=20use=20a=20find=20command=20to=20find=20a=20text=20string,= =20or=20 word/phrase=20in=20a=20large=20document=20like=20a=20textbook.=20=20On=20a= =20 Braille-Note,=20hit=20space=20with=20F=20for=20the=20find=20command.=20=20T= hen=20it=20 will=20ask=20you,=20"Search=20forward=20or=20back?"=20If=20you=20want=20to= =20search=20for=20 something=20that=20you=20know=20is=20further=20into=20the=20text=20than=20y= ou=20 currently=20are,=20het=20f=20for=20forward,=20and=20to=20search=20for=20som= ething=20 before=20the=20place=20where=20you=20are,=20hit=20b=20for=20back.=20=20Then= ,=20it=20will=20 prompt=20"Find?"=20Type=20the=20text=20string=20you=20want=20to=20search=20= for=20and=20 hit=20Enter.=20=20If=20it=20finds=20the=20string=20you're=20searching=20for= ,=20it=20will=20 put=20your=20cursor=20under=20that=20string.=20=20If=20you=20use=20JAWS=20o= n=20your=20 computer,=20I=20think=20the=20find=20command=20is=20Alt=20F3,=20but=20don't= =20quote=20me=20 on=20that.=20=20I'll=20have=20to=20check=20and=20get=20back=20to=20you=20on= =20that.=20=20If=20 there's=20someone=20else=20on=20the=20list=20who=20knows=20what=20the=20Fin= d=20command=20 on=20JAWS=20is,=20please=20let=20us=20know.=20=20Hope=20that=20helps! Chris=20Nusbaum "A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abilit= ies=20motto) =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20 References: <4dbf0c45.42abe60a.5d2a.6b9c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: You can't really use the BN for that though can you? I've tried finding stuff in really large books and it just freezes the note. On May 2, 2011, at 3:55 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > I don't know whether you use a computer or notetaker to read E-texts, but if you have JAWS on a computer or use a Braille-Note BT, you can use a find command to find a text string, or word/phrase in a large document like a textbook. On a Braille-Note, hit space with F for the find command. Then it will ask you, "Search forward or back?" If you want to search for something that you know is further into the text than you currently are, het f for forward, and to search for something before the place where you are, hit b for back. Then, it will prompt "Find?" Type the text string you want to search for and hit Enter. If it finds the string you're searching for, it will put your cursor under that string. If you use JAWS on your computer, I think the find command is Alt F3, but don't quote me on that. I'll have to check and get back to you on that. If there's someone else on the list who knows what the Find command on JAWS is, please let us know. Hope that helps! > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 00:31:32 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > Hi all, > > College texts are full of words and examples. Frustrating when you cannot skim through especially when you need the highlights for a test. > I take notes when reading. But my notes don’t always amount to what the professor tells us to study for the test, if they tell us. > > So what do you do when the professor has a study guide? > Some students take it and jot down the coresponding pages to the study topics and study those pages. > How do you use it? > Sometimes professors give a list of terms/concepts to study or a list of questions to guide your preparation. My communication professor outlined on the board what concepts we needed to know for our final. > But here’s the thing. I cannot skim the text or look up words. My notes may or may not have them. Even if they do, its still looking for a needle in a haystack when reviewing for finals! So I’ve usually had to ask a reader; they act as my eyes and look in the index for the key words or skim for the key words or headings in the chapter. > > For me, I usually use audio whenever possible. But even with e-texts, I cannot skim because I don’t know the exact phrase and without that the computer does Not know what to look for; also > it is divided in to chapters and I cannot search across chapters. > Another thing, how do you work with open book exams? > Do you have a reader there and they look up any info from the book? That is what I’ve done. > Again, openbook tests let you use it as a reference tool, but that is hard for us. > > So any tips for studying or “skimming” would be good. How can you direct a reader to actually skim? Usually they will read too much to me rather than just the main paragraph of the topic; generally under the main headings I find the introduction to the concept and smaller headings tell you details/examples. > > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Mon May 2 21:24:32 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 17:24:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: <4dbf0c41.42abe60a.5d2a.6b9a@mx.google.com> References: <4dbf0c41.42abe60a.5d2a.6b9a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <74CCEC89-041A-4DE8-9AC0-5F635AC6A27A@gmail.com> Chris: Your logic is flawless. Taking it from a business point, it makes complete sense though. Here's the thing: those groups sometimes make very dumb decisions with a closed mind. For example: can you imagine they tried to attack the sale of second hand books? Like, say you have a book and sold it to someone who really wants it, well, they tried to classify that as a violation of copyright! law. So yeah, those groups aren't always logical about their decisions. Jorge On May 2, 2011, at 3:55 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > That's their argument, but it makes no sense to me. There are about 3.1 million blind people in the country. So the authors really would be getting * more * money from * more * customers wanting to buy and read their books, but can't because the E-books are inaccessible and only 5 percent of books are available in Braille. I don't get it! If they're worried about money from sold books so much, then they should be happy that in enableing text-to-speech on E-book readers like the Kindle, there would be more books sold. Therefore, by enableing TTS on the Kindle, the revenue from sold books coming into the authors would be * raised, * not lowered! See the iPad, hint hint. > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 1 May 2011 21:57:10 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Is it true they're not allowing it because "its a market?" > > In other words, > they wanna record text to speech engines reading books to sell as part of mainstream sales later on and so they're not allowing it in current devices. > > > On May 1, 2011, at 9:25 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > > Partly. But we're nowhere near there yet and some Kindle books still don't > allow speech access. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 4:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Glad to have the coalition website; and did the kindle become accessible? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tina Hansen > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 7:04 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Maybe I can explain. The Reading Rights Coalition is not officially > affiliated with the NFB, but it's a consortium of organizations who have > voiced their concerns about access to the Kindle and other mainstream > electronic books. The coalition is made up of blindness organizations as > well as organizations with other disabilities that make reading print > difficult. The web site is > > www.readingrights.org > > Thanks. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma > hb%40earthl > ink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon May 2 21:42:34 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 17:42:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material In-Reply-To: <4dbf0c45.42abe60a.5d2a.6b9c@mx.google.com> References: <4dbf0c45.42abe60a.5d2a.6b9c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <13F9180032F1485B9618380482D05488@OwnerPC> Chris, I use a computer; but as I said to find a text segment, you got to know the words exactly you're looking for. If you have a variation on it, that won't help. Plus some stuff is probably just in the index/glossary, like definitions. Often the index is not part of my e-text and even if it is, its so big that using a computer may not be practical to find it. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 3:55 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material I don't know whether you use a computer or notetaker to read E-texts, but if you have JAWS on a computer or use a Braille-Note BT, you can use a find command to find a text string, or word/phrase in a large document like a textbook. On a Braille-Note, hit space with F for the find command. Then it will ask you, "Search forward or back?" If you want to search for something that you know is further into the text than you currently are, het f for forward, and to search for something before the place where you are, hit b for back. Then, it will prompt "Find?" Type the text string you want to search for and hit Enter. If it finds the string you're searching for, it will put your cursor under that string. If you use JAWS on your computer, I think the find command is Alt F3, but don't quote me on that. I'll have to check and get back to you on that. If there's someone else on the list who knows what the Find command on JAWS is, please let us know. Hope that helps! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: Hi all, I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they are taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency topics and really trashing the NFB and they don’t know the real positions and facts. They think NFB opposes both. I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions? Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do you think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? Personally, I’d like the APS at intersections where you have to press the walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk signal to know when our time starts; you have to press the button in order to tell the computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk phase to cross the street. I think these are called actuated signals. These streets favor drivers, not pedestrians; the busier streets get more traffic time. That change of the signal is activated by a computer. At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, without a button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues to hear to cross. I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some signals even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk interval. So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient traffic cues to cross the street. I’ve tried to learn how to cross T streets, and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help there too. No parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on APS, so I’m not sure what it is now. I certainly don’t want them everywhere, but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see their use. Ashley From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Mon May 2 22:57:39 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 18:57:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS In-Reply-To: <20F30263B78D44D98DE4F17EDD02B660@OwnerPC> References: <20F30263B78D44D98DE4F17EDD02B660@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <76ECABBF-7025-4A70-A1B6-54DF93D9EC7E@gmail.com> I believe the national is officially against expanding the use of APS. As far as accessible currency, didn't the ACB already close that case in court? ACB V. US trasury 2009 or something like that? On May 2, 2011, at 6:36 PM, wrote: > Hi all, > > I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they are taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency > topics and really trashing the NFB and they don’t know the real positions and facts. > They think NFB opposes both. > I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions? Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. > > What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do you think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? > Personally, I’d like the APS at intersections where you have to press the walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk signal to know when our time starts; you have to press the button in order to tell the computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk phase to cross the street. I think these are called actuated signals. These streets favor drivers, not pedestrians; the busier streets get more traffic time. That change of the signal is activated by a computer. > > At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, without a button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues to hear to cross. > I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some signals even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk interval. > > So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient traffic cues to cross the street. I’ve tried to learn how to cross T streets, and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help there too. No parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. > > Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on APS, so I’m not sure what it is now. I certainly don’t want them everywhere, but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see their use. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon May 2 23:14:05 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 19:14:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS In-Reply-To: <76ECABBF-7025-4A70-A1B6-54DF93D9EC7E@gmail.com> References: <20F30263B78D44D98DE4F17EDD02B660@OwnerPC> <76ECABBF-7025-4A70-A1B6-54DF93D9EC7E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <613C0503A5A54ED89A6C7D97C6DB3AE1@OwnerPC> George, Actually the ACB seems as mad as ever; yes they won in the court; but the government has not produced accessible currency yet. Some do not feel the decision will be enforced. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS I believe the national is officially against expanding the use of APS. As far as accessible currency, didn't the ACB already close that case in court? ACB V. US trasury 2009 or something like that? On May 2, 2011, at 6:36 PM, wrote: > Hi all, > > I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they are > taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency > topics and really trashing the NFB and they don’t know the real positions > and facts. > They think NFB opposes both. > I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions? > Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. > > What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do you > think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? > Personally, I’d like the APS at intersections where you have to press the > walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk signal to know when > our time starts; you have to press the button in order to tell the > computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk phase to cross the > street. I think these are called actuated signals. These streets favor > drivers, not pedestrians; the busier streets get more traffic time. That > change of the signal is activated by a computer. > > At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, without a > button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues to hear to > cross. > I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn lanes > and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some signals even > talk to you and count down the time left in the walk interval. > > So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient traffic cues > to cross the street. I’ve tried to learn how to cross T streets, and > those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help there too. No parallel > traffic on T-shaped streets. > > Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on APS, > so I’m not sure what it is now. I certainly don’t want them everywhere, > but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see their use. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Mon May 2 23:15:56 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 19:15:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS In-Reply-To: <613C0503A5A54ED89A6C7D97C6DB3AE1@OwnerPC> References: <20F30263B78D44D98DE4F17EDD02B660@OwnerPC> <76ECABBF-7025-4A70-A1B6-54DF93D9EC7E@gmail.com> <613C0503A5A54ED89A6C7D97C6DB3AE1@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <089F83C8-C314-43F3-B922-28D184F7F486@gmail.com> I thought it wasn't supposed to be enforced till like 2012? On May 2, 2011, at 7:14 PM, wrote: > George, > Actually the ACB seems as mad as ever; yes they won in the court; but the government has not produced accessible currency yet. > Some do not feel the decision will be enforced. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS > > I believe the national is officially against expanding the use of APS. > > As far as accessible currency, didn't the ACB already close that case in court? > ACB V. US trasury 2009 or something like that? > > > On May 2, 2011, at 6:36 PM, wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they are taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency >> topics and really trashing the NFB and they don’t know the real positions and facts. >> They think NFB opposes both. >> I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions? Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. >> >> What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do you think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? >> Personally, I’d like the APS at intersections where you have to press the walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk signal to know when our time starts; you have to press the button in order to tell the computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk phase to cross the street. I think these are called actuated signals. These streets favor drivers, not pedestrians; the busier streets get more traffic time. That change of the signal is activated by a computer. >> >> At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, without a button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues to hear to cross. >> I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some signals even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk interval. >> >> So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient traffic cues to cross the street. I’ve tried to learn how to cross T streets, and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help there too. No parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. >> >> Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on APS, so I’m not sure what it is now. I certainly don’t want them everywhere, but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see their use. >> >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon May 2 23:30:00 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 19:30:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS In-Reply-To: <089F83C8-C314-43F3-B922-28D184F7F486@gmail.com> References: <20F30263B78D44D98DE4F17EDD02B660@OwnerPC><76ECABBF-7025-4A70-A1B6-54DF93D9EC7E@gmail.com><613C0503A5A54ED89A6C7D97C6DB3AE1@OwnerPC> <089F83C8-C314-43F3-B922-28D184F7F486@gmail.com> Message-ID: George, I don't know. I heard the treasury is studying what redesign should be done. -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 7:15 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS I thought it wasn't supposed to be enforced till like 2012? On May 2, 2011, at 7:14 PM, wrote: > George, > Actually the ACB seems as mad as ever; yes they won in the court; but the > government has not produced accessible currency yet. > Some do not feel the decision will be enforced. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS > > I believe the national is officially against expanding the use of APS. > > As far as accessible currency, didn't the ACB already close that case in > court? > ACB V. US trasury 2009 or something like that? > > > On May 2, 2011, at 6:36 PM, wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they are >> taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency >> topics and really trashing the NFB and they don’t know the real positions >> and facts. >> They think NFB opposes both. >> I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions? >> Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. >> >> What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do you >> think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? >> Personally, I’d like the APS at intersections where you have to press the >> walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk signal to know when >> our time starts; you have to press the button in order to tell the >> computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk phase to cross the >> street. I think these are called actuated signals. These streets favor >> drivers, not pedestrians; the busier streets get more traffic time. That >> change of the signal is activated by a computer. >> >> At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, without a >> button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues to hear to >> cross. >> I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn >> lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some signals >> even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk interval. >> >> So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient traffic >> cues to cross the street. I’ve tried to learn how to cross T streets, >> and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help there too. No >> parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. >> >> Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on APS, >> so I’m not sure what it is now. I certainly don’t want them everywhere, >> but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see their use. >> >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From gcazares10 at gmail.com Mon May 2 23:37:07 2011 From: gcazares10 at gmail.com (Gabriel Cazares) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 18:37:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Thank You for your Support! In-Reply-To: <1105336641650.1101553811939.23196.6.37095025@scheduler> References: <1105336641650.1101553811939.23196.6.37095025@scheduler> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Learning Ally, formerly RFB&D" Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 10:07:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Thank You for your Support! To: gcazares10 at gmail.com Having trouble viewing this email? Click here to view this email as a webpage. http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=dpqs87bab&v=001JbA8pPO1z-MhGsslJGOwOQrhHUKPKfZROcNJuT2qugDy9zjJwS0N0ZTPaco5TIEgbV2suMeaJiVt4A8bH6CsjOn9AvQvdAzGe3dA5eNmAEwKzLcGYmH-zcpsnhbfud9vn4Ql8NC_UmQL2RZ100rfGXnfNsibLTfrzQlwfGCV1zzLbt_MZsJCCFX7--7PN9i5Y6j-IMJcJhRE_D66I3_dKoh3hHY5wqrdl6L3U8s_vM4lS4MVOIt3esAnMtPlZuSbjQYUxlW5RvJt9A2p5_bdN2hDYlBOd6IEXwJPpqM8JRCBbez-1Bpafa600u3Vkz5gWU9kNKGLcqx-mXKTMk3aUcVpFIGy-C7GU2esRrcVe3zwo_pdOzBsUn0_x_CabOpbXUt2BIM2CUkbHw5D-4X-xw%3D%3D You're receiving this email because of your relationship with Learning Ally. Please confirm your continued interest in receiving email from us. http://visitor.r20.constantcontact.com/c.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&t=1105336641650.23196.123941028.2&m=1101553811939&wl=F You only have to do this once. You may unsubscribe http://visitor.constantcontact.com/do?p=un&m=001K33QEjKvDIIHs3UwsZPI7A%3D%3D&se=001IyrhS4OSBPQ%3D&t=0018WK4DlChgVvCBYZ1jrRsbw%3D%3D&lang=001FCSs65SMrsI%3D&reason=001y5KaVlBn7_Y%3D&llr=dpqs87bab if you no longer wish to receive our emails. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Stay Engaged, Spread the Word ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ May 2, 2011 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thank You and an Update on Federal DOE Funding for Accessible Educational Materials First, Thank you! Your rapid and clear call for continued support for accessible educational materials was heard by Members of Congress and had a positive impact on the FY 2011 appropriation to the Department of Education. The compelling testimonials many of you have shared with us added a depth and poignancy to the discussion that numbers alone could not convey. Your personal stories carried weight in Washington. Second, despite many key Members supporting the program, there was no specific funding appropriated for Learning Ally. This unfortunate loss of congressionally dedicated funding means that our campaign is far from over. Our efforts need to shift to the Department of Education and the decisions to be made by Secretary Duncan. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Fiscal Year 2011's Fight Shifts Under the budget plan passed by Congress, Secretary Duncan has the discretion to hold a competition for the development, production and distribution of educational materials in accessible formats to students with visual impairments and other print disabilities. Consequently, we at Learning Ally are working closely with our supporters on Capitol Hill to encourage the Secretary to prepare and publish a competition for a national program for accessible textbooks. This priority was part of President Obama's 2011 budget plan, and we are striving to preserve this going forward. We are working to encourage the Secretary to act quickly so there will be confidence in this program's future. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Next Year's Debate is Close at Hand While we continue to work on the FY 2011 program, we need to also turn our attention to the now emerging FY 2012 (October 1, 2011-September 30, 2012) budget and appropriations work. As in FY 2011, there will be no earmarks or dedicated funding for Learning Ally or hundreds of other valuable national programs. Our goal will be to protect the crucial ongoing funding that the Department of Education provides for accessible educational materials in the FY 2012 budget plan, and to ensure that the hundreds of thousands of students across the United States who depend on accessible materials for their education can continue to receive these tools. This debate will be ongoing throughout this spring, summer and well into autumn. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Stay Engaged, Spread the Word We expect your voice will play a crucial role in the debate. Members of Congress need to be reminded regularly of the real human impact that this program has. As we approach key milestones, your engagement will be needed to drive this point. We need you to be an evangelist; spreading the word to your family, friends and colleagues about this program and encouraging them to sign the petition at the link below and enlist in this endeavor.We need as many advocates to sign as possible, so please ask everyone you know to join us and sign the petition. http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/rfbd/ [http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&et=1105336641650&s=23196&e=001U2rP5AzTh0XdpdaaEP0Vf0vfMvWXsp3T6txf1N8nwPs4lAr8YfoaaJDpVfFxjdMVRxeO6XB6_nLFU3o87IpEAHG_xfXxUhwW4f7Osy9KFy6OF4R-wBW1ho6QNMquMRw6FsiIxHjk2Cs=] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Visit the Policy Advocates Center As we keep the pressure up on the Department of Education with our allies in Congress, we will update our Policy Advocates Center [http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&et=1105336641650&s=23196&e=001U2rP5AzTh0W6E_nXwJgKmg8wVvwM0cng1er2weMwiFuKWGBzJGyrJYC53GSgAiuKlHxU0ZbTB0fXwaP6cFsOVMnnocCkJs1XtAnDs6jOk7_hLXHPpLCoq6QWedyjbpjpNTL3eelqeQbSvT5i84cMcX7cyB_yae1xTzlP8duz130jarRe37l1Cg==] with developments as they occur. 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All rights reserved. LearningAlly(TM), Making reading accessible for all(TM), the "Access" icon, Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic®, RFB&D® and all trademarks and service marks are owned by Learning Ally, Inc. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Forward this email http://ui.constantcontact.com/sa/fwtf.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&m=1101553811939&ea=gcazares10 at gmail.com&a=1105336641650 This email was sent to gcazares10 at gmail.com by advocacy at learningally.org. Update Profile/Email Address http://visitor.constantcontact.com/do?p=oo&m=001K33QEjKvDIIHs3UwsZPI7A%3D%3D&se=001IyrhS4OSBPQ%3D&t=0018WK4DlChgVvCBYZ1jrRsbw%3D%3D&lang=001FCSs65SMrsI%3D&reason=001y5KaVlBn7_Y%3D&llr=dpqs87bab Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe(TM) http://visitor.constantcontact.com/do?p=un&m=001K33QEjKvDIIHs3UwsZPI7A%3D%3D&se=001IyrhS4OSBPQ%3D&t=0018WK4DlChgVvCBYZ1jrRsbw%3D%3D&lang=001FCSs65SMrsI%3D&reason=001y5KaVlBn7_Y%3D&llr=dpqs87bab Privacy Policy: http://ui.constantcontact.com/roving/CCPrivacyPolicy.jsp Learning Ally | 20 Roszel Road | Princeton | NJ | 08540 -- Gabriel M. Cazares, 2nd Vice President Texas Association of Blind Students - TABS (A Division of the National Federation of the Blind of Texas) www.nfb-texas.org/tabs.html Phone: 713-581-0619 "Of course, loyalty to one's friends is an important principle. But so is writing what you believe--otherwise, why bother to write at all?"-Arianna Huffington From nabs.president at gmail.com Mon May 2 23:42:00 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 17:42:00 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS In-Reply-To: <089F83C8-C314-43F3-B922-28D184F7F486@gmail.com> References: <20F30263B78D44D98DE4F17EDD02B660@OwnerPC> <76ECABBF-7025-4A70-A1B6-54DF93D9EC7E@gmail.com> <613C0503A5A54ED89A6C7D97C6DB3AE1@OwnerPC> <089F83C8-C314-43F3-B922-28D184F7F486@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Ashley and all, I don't know exactly what NFB's official position is at this point. I personally am a big fan of audible traffic signals, for a few reasons. First, as you pointed out, there are several kinds of intersections where the auditory cue to cross is rather subtle-such as T-intersections, those where the parallel street is generally quiet or those with leading turn arrows, where you have to listen for the turning traffic to stop before crossing. I know it is possible to reliably cross these kinds of intersections using traffic cues alone, but the potential for mistakes (both missing the cue to cross and inadvertently crossing at the wrong time) is substantial especially for those who have had insufficient training. Second, as far as I know, there is no reliable way to tell when your walk signal is about to end. So if you come up to an intersection and the light is in your favor, there's no way to tell whether you will have enough time to cross before the light changes. The only really safe way to handle this is to wait until the light turns red and then green again, which can be inconvenient. Trust me, I've gambled on these and tried to cross without enough time-the result is scary not to mention embarrassing. Finally, though I know this logic is not always popular, I do think that if the sighted are given a clear cue to cross the street and it is not an undue hardship to make that signal accessible to the blind, it should be done. I can't imagine an intersection where sighted pedestrians are expected to watch the traffic without any kind of walk signal or light indicating when it was safe to cross. That being said, I don't think this necessarily has to be our biggest priority at this time. I also recognize that some blind travelers find audible signals bothersome and I would support some way of making the sound optional or implementing a tactile (i.e. vibrating) signal, which would also benefit the deaf-blind. Arielle On 5/2/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > I thought it wasn't supposed to be enforced till like 2012? > > > On May 2, 2011, at 7:14 PM, wrote: > >> George, >> Actually the ACB seems as mad as ever; yes they won in the court; but the >> government has not produced accessible currency yet. >> Some do not feel the decision will be enforced. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez >> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:57 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS >> >> I believe the national is officially against expanding the use of APS. >> >> As far as accessible currency, didn't the ACB already close that case in >> court? >> ACB V. US trasury 2009 or something like that? >> >> >> On May 2, 2011, at 6:36 PM, wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they are >>> taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency >>> topics and really trashing the NFB and they don’t know the real positions >>> and facts. >>> They think NFB opposes both. >>> I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions? >>> Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. >>> >>> What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do you >>> think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? >>> Personally, I’d like the APS at intersections where you have to press the >>> walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk signal to know when >>> our time starts; you have to press the button in order to tell the >>> computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk phase to cross the >>> street. I think these are called actuated signals. These streets favor >>> drivers, not pedestrians; the busier streets get more traffic time. That >>> change of the signal is activated by a computer. >>> >>> At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, without a >>> button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues to hear to >>> cross. >>> I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn >>> lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some signals >>> even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk interval. >>> >>> So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient traffic >>> cues to cross the street. I’ve tried to learn how to cross T streets, >>> and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help there too. No >>> parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. >>> >>> Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on APS, >>> so I’m not sure what it is now. I certainly don’t want them everywhere, >>> but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see their use. >>> >>> Ashley >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue May 3 00:28:04 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 02 May 2011 20:28:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material Message-ID: <4dbf4c2d.8735e50a.7baa.ffffab0f@mx.google.com> WWVzLCB5b3UncmUgcmlnaHQhIFNvLCBsZXQgbWUgZ2l2ZSB5b3UgYW5vdGhlciBvcHRpb24uICBJ 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YiU0MGVhcnRobGluay5uZXQKCgoKLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0gbmV4dCBwYXJ0IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tCkEgbm9uLXRleHQgYXR0YWNobWVudCB3YXMgc2NydWJiZWQuLi4KTmFtZTogYXR0YWNobWVu dApUeXBlOiBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbi9vY3RldC1zdHJlYW0KU2l6ZTogMzEyIGJ5dGVzCkRlc2M6IG5v dCBhdmFpbGFibGUKVVJMOiA8aHR0cDovL25mYm5ldC5vcmcvcGlwZXJtYWlsL25hYnMtbF9uZmJu ZXQub3JnL2F0dGFjaG1lbnRzLzIwMTEwNTAyLzY4ODliODc4L2F0dGFjaG1lbnQuYT4K From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue May 3 00:44:30 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 02 May 2011 20:44:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Message-ID: <4dbf5007.42abe60a.5d2a.6f68@mx.google.com> Wow! Seriously? But how does it make sense from a business standpoint? Companies in the private sector only work for profit, right? They're all putting their good or service out to the world with the hopes of earning money (a profit) from that good or service. Using this example, the authors are putting their good (books) out to the world with the hopes that people will buy their books and therefore they will earn a profit off of the sold books. So, again, by enableing text-to-speech on E-book readers, the authors are opening the door to 1.3 million more potential buyers (and then some) than they're currently tapping into, which, if some of those 1.3 million people buy their books, will increase the profit coming into the authors, which is the end goal. What am I missing here? Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez On=20the=20Apex,=20it=20usually=20works=20fine...=20=20most=20of=20the=20ti= me.=20=20What=20 model=20do=20you=20have? Chris=20Nusbaum "A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abilit= ies=20motto) =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Jorge=20Paez=20 References: <4dbf4c2d.8735e50a.7baa.ffffab0f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <2CF8B64A184943328903C8CADDB5A8BA@OwnerPC> Oh, maybe the website for the publisher or book will explain the topics in the book. I'll check. Some books have a website with interactive quizzes, study guides, etc. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 8:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material Yes, you're right! So, let me give you another option. If you read a textbook online, usually the Web site will offer a form field where you can search for topics in the book. Although we don't use it a lot, we can get all our textbooks for class on either www.classzone.com or on the publisher's Web site, either for science and math: www.phsschool.com or for English: www.glencoe.com. If you're using JAWS and get your textbooks online, hit insert F 5 for the select a form field list. See if there's a "search book" or "search index" or something like that in the list. If so, try that! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: Not long ago, I learned that the Braille Institute in Los Angeles, California, produced a series of recordings called Sound Solutions. They present tools and techniques for coping with blindness and vision loss in a number of dramatic formats. I thought: it might be cool if we could do that. We do have a play at our National convention, but that's about it. I'm not sure if I agree with everything they present, but I still think we can learn from it. To get an idea of what they do, you can go to http://www.airsla.org/soundsolutions.asp The episodes cover topics such as: home management, coping skills, and many other topics, and with one exception, most of them are 30 minutes or less. I'm presenting this for what it's worth, since I know that we have some creative people out there, and I also know that if we can present our message in a creative way, it might interest the younger generation. Check it out. Thanks. From iperrault at hotmail.com Tue May 3 01:01:20 2011 From: iperrault at hotmail.com (Ian Perrault) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 21:01:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material In-Reply-To: <2CF8B64A184943328903C8CADDB5A8BA@OwnerPC> References: <4dbf4c2d.8735e50a.7baa.ffffab0f@mx.google.com> <2CF8B64A184943328903C8CADDB5A8BA@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi All, A tip: If I'm reading an e-text book on my laptop with JAWS, and I don't want to lose my place, I mark my place by putting *****, then saving the Word document since the book is in Word usually, then when I want to reread it, I just do a find and hit *****. I just came up with that method on my own, and it's five stars, not three as JAWS says. Ian Ian -----Original Message----- From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 8:50 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material Oh, maybe the website for the publisher or book will explain the topics in the book. I'll check. Some books have a website with interactive quizzes, study guides, etc. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 8:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material Yes, you're right! So, let me give you another option. If you read a textbook online, usually the Web site will offer a form field where you can search for topics in the book. Although we don't use it a lot, we can get all our textbooks for class on either www.classzone.com or on the publisher's Web site, either for science and math: www.phsschool.com or for English: www.glencoe.com. If you're using JAWS and get your textbooks online, hit insert F 5 for the select a form field list. See if there's a "search book" or "search index" or something like that in the list. If so, try that! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: <2CF8B64A184943328903C8CADDB5A8BA@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Also, if you have JAWS 12, and you need to mark your place just for the=20 moment while you go somewhere else in the document, you can use ALT, wind= ows=20 k to mark your place and windows k to return to it. I wish that FS would=20 allow for multiple place markers like the BrailleNote does. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Ian Perrault" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"=20 Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > Hi All, > A tip: If I'm reading an e-text book on my laptop with JAWS, and I don'= t > want to lose my place, I mark my place by putting *****, then saving th= e > Word document since the book is in Word usually, then when I want to=20 > reread > it, I just do a find and hit *****. I just came up with that method on = my > own, and it's five stars, not three as JAWS says. > Ian > Ian > > -----Original Message-----=20 > From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 8:50 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > Oh, maybe the website for the publisher or book will explain the topics= in > the book. I'll check. Some books have a website with interactive=20 > quizzes, > study guides, etc. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message-----=20 > From: Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 8:28 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > Yes, you're right! So, let me give you another option. If you > read a textbook online, usually the Web site will offer a form > field where you can search for topics in the book. Although we > don't use it a lot, we can get all our textbooks for class on > either www.classzone.com or on the publisher's Web site, either > for science and math: www.phsschool.com or for English: > www.glencoe.com. If you're using JAWS and get your textbooks > online, hit insert F 5 for the select a form field list. See if > there's a "search book" or "search index" or something like that > in the list. If so, try that! > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 17:42:34 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > Chris, > I use a computer; but as I said to find a text segment, you got > to know the > words exactly you're looking for. If you have a variation on it, > that won't > help. Plus some stuff is probably just in the index/glossary, > like > definitions. Often the index is not part of my e-text and even > if it is, > its so big that using a computer may not be practical to find it. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 3:55 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > I don't know whether you use a computer or notetaker to read > E-texts, but if you have JAWS on a computer or use a Braille-Note > BT, you can use a find command to find a text string, or > word/phrase in a large document like a textbook. On a > Braille-Note, hit space with F for the find command. Then it > will ask you, "Search forward or back?" If you want to search for > something that you know is further into the text than you > currently are, het f for forward, and to search for something > before the place where you are, hit b for back. Then, it will > prompt "Find?" Type the text string you want to search for and > hit Enter. If it finds the string you're searching for, it will > put your cursor under that string. If you use JAWS on your > computer, I think the find command is Alt F3, but don't quote me > on that. I'll have to check and get back to you on that. If > there's someone else on the list who knows what the Find command > on JAWS is, please let us know. Hope that helps! > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 00:31:32 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > Hi all, > > College texts are full of words and examples. Frustrating when > you cannot skim through especially when you need the highlights > for a test. > I take notes when reading. But my notes don?=99t always amount to > what the professor tells us to study for the test, if they tell > us. > > So what do you do when the professor has a study guide? > Some students take it and jot down the coresponding pages to the > study topics and study those pages. > How do you use it? > Sometimes professors give a list of terms/concepts to study or a > list of questions to guide your preparation. My communication > professor outlined on the board what concepts we needed to know > for our final. > But here?=99s the thing. I cannot skim the text or look up words. > My notes may or may not have them. Even if they do, its still > looking for a needle in a haystack when reviewing for finals! So > I?=99ve usually had to ask a reader; they act as my eyes and look > in the index for the key words or skim for the key words or > headings in the chapter. > > For me, I usually use audio whenever possible. But even with > e-texts, I cannot skim because I don?=99t know the exact phrase > and without that the computer does Not know what to look for; > also > it is divided in to chapters and I cannot search across chapters. > Another thing, how do you work with open book exams? > Do you have a reader there and they look up any info from the > book? That is what I?=99ve done. > Again, openbook tests let you use it as a reference tool, but > that is hard for us. > > So any tips for studying or ?=9Cskimming??would be good. How > can you direct a reader to actually skim? Usually they will read > too much to me rather than just the main paragraph of the topic; > generally under the main headings I find the introduction to the > concept and smaller headings tell you details/examples. > > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma > hb%40earthlink.net > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40e= arthlink.net > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iperrault%40hot= mail.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for=20 > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wa= vecable.com >=20 From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue May 3 01:19:46 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 21:19:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material In-Reply-To: References: <4dbf4c2d.8735e50a.7baa.ffffab0f@mx.google.com><2CF8B64A184943328903C8CADDB5A8BA@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <1783E14CB3F84ADCBDEE81AF0CB11783@OwnerPC> I have jaws 12 but as you said, a huge limitation to the place mark feature is one per document and that doesn't help much when studying since the text is over 20 pages per file which is a chapter. -----Original Message----- From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:09 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material Also, if you have JAWS 12, and you need to mark your place just for the moment while you go somewhere else in the document, you can use ALT, windows k to mark your place and windows k to return to it. I wish that FS would allow for multiple place markers like the BrailleNote does. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Perrault" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > Hi All, > A tip: If I'm reading an e-text book on my laptop with JAWS, and I don't > want to lose my place, I mark my place by putting *****, then saving the > Word document since the book is in Word usually, then when I want to > reread > it, I just do a find and hit *****. I just came up with that method on my > own, and it's five stars, not three as JAWS says. > Ian > Ian > > -----Original Message----- > From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 8:50 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > Oh, maybe the website for the publisher or book will explain the topics in > the book. I'll check. Some books have a website with interactive > quizzes, > study guides, etc. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 8:28 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > Yes, you're right! So, let me give you another option. If you > read a textbook online, usually the Web site will offer a form > field where you can search for topics in the book. Although we > don't use it a lot, we can get all our textbooks for class on > either www.classzone.com or on the publisher's Web site, either > for science and math: www.phsschool.com or for English: > www.glencoe.com. If you're using JAWS and get your textbooks > online, hit insert F 5 for the select a form field list. See if > there's a "search book" or "search index" or something like that > in the list. If so, try that! > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 17:42:34 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > Chris, > I use a computer; but as I said to find a text segment, you got > to know the > words exactly you're looking for. If you have a variation on it, > that won't > help. Plus some stuff is probably just in the index/glossary, > like > definitions. Often the index is not part of my e-text and even > if it is, > its so big that using a computer may not be practical to find it. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 3:55 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > I don't know whether you use a computer or notetaker to read > E-texts, but if you have JAWS on a computer or use a Braille-Note > BT, you can use a find command to find a text string, or > word/phrase in a large document like a textbook. On a > Braille-Note, hit space with F for the find command. Then it > will ask you, "Search forward or back?" If you want to search for > something that you know is further into the text than you > currently are, het f for forward, and to search for something > before the place where you are, hit b for back. Then, it will > prompt "Find?" Type the text string you want to search for and > hit Enter. If it finds the string you're searching for, it will > put your cursor under that string. If you use JAWS on your > computer, I think the find command is Alt F3, but don't quote me > on that. I'll have to check and get back to you on that. If > there's someone else on the list who knows what the Find command > on JAWS is, please let us know. Hope that helps! > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 00:31:32 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > Hi all, > > College texts are full of words and examples. Frustrating when > you cannot skim through especially when you need the highlights > for a test. > I take notes when reading. But my notes don?�t always amount to > what the professor tells us to study for the test, if they tell > us. > > So what do you do when the professor has a study guide? > Some students take it and jot down the coresponding pages to the > study topics and study those pages. > How do you use it? > Sometimes professors give a list of terms/concepts to study or a > list of questions to guide your preparation. My communication > professor outlined on the board what concepts we needed to know > for our final. > But here?�s the thing. I cannot skim the text or look up words. > My notes may or may not have them. Even if they do, its still > looking for a needle in a haystack when reviewing for finals! So > I?�ve usually had to ask a reader; they act as my eyes and look > in the index for the key words or skim for the key words or > headings in the chapter. > > For me, I usually use audio whenever possible. But even with > e-texts, I cannot skim because I don?�t know the exact phrase > and without that the computer does Not know what to look for; > also > it is divided in to chapters and I cannot search across chapters. > Another thing, how do you work with open book exams? > Do you have a reader there and they look up any info from the > book? That is what I?�ve done. > Again, openbook tests let you use it as a reference tool, but > that is hard for us. > > So any tips for studying or ?�skimming??would be good. How > can you direct a reader to actually skim? Usually they will read > too much to me rather than just the main paragraph of the topic; > generally under the main headings I find the introduction to the > concept and smaller headings tell you details/examples. > > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma > hb%40earthlink.net > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iperrault%40hotmail.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Tue May 3 01:21:02 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 21:21:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material In-Reply-To: <4dbf5009.42abe60a.5d2a.6f69@mx.google.com> References: <4dbf5009.42abe60a.5d2a.6f69@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <83DCF48C-7C01-45DB-BDFC-BBE63C50FA37@gmail.com> M-Power 18 running Keysoft 7.5 build 31. On May 2, 2011, at 8:44 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > On the Apex, it usually works fine... most of the time. What model do you have? > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 17:20:59 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > You can't really use the BN for that though can you? > > I've tried finding stuff in really large books and it just freezes the note. > > > On May 2, 2011, at 3:55 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > > I don't know whether you use a computer or notetaker to read E-texts, but if you have JAWS on a computer or use a Braille-Note BT, you can use a find command to find a text string, or word/phrase in a large document like a textbook. On a Braille-Note, hit space with F for the find command. Then it will ask you, "Search forward or back?" If you want to search for something that you know is further into the text than you currently are, het f for forward, and to search for something before the place where you are, hit b for back. Then, it will prompt "Find?" Type the text string you want to search for and hit Enter. If it finds the string you're searching for, it will put your cursor under that string. If you use JAWS on your computer, I think the find command is Alt F3, but don't quote me on that. I'll have to check and get back to you on that. If there's someone else on the list who knows what the Find command on JAWS is, please let us know. Hope that helps! > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 00:31:32 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > Hi all, > > College texts are full of words and examples. Frustrating when you cannot skim through especially when you need the highlights for a test. > I take notes when reading. But my notes don‚t always amount to what the professor tells us to study for the test, if they tell us. > > So what do you do when the professor has a study guide? > Some students take it and jot down the coresponding pages to the study topics and study those pages. > How do you use it? > Sometimes professors give a list of terms/concepts to study or a list of questions to guide your preparation. My communication professor outlined on the board what concepts we needed to know for our final. > But here‚s the thing. I cannot skim the text or look up words. My notes may or may not have them. Even if they do, its still looking for a needle in a haystack when reviewing for finals! So I‚ve usually had to ask a reader; they act as my eyes and look in the index for the key words or skim for the key words or headings in the chapter. > > For me, I usually use audio whenever possible. But even with e-texts, I cannot skim because I don‚t know the exact phrase and without that the computer does Not know what to look for; also > it is divided in to chapters and I cannot search across chapters. > Another thing, how do you work with open book exams? > Do you have a reader there and they look up any info from the book? That is what I‚ve done. > Again, openbook tests let you use it as a reference tool, but that is hard for us. > > So any tips for studying or „skimming‰ would be good. How can you direct a reader to actually skim? Usually they will read too much to me rather than just the main paragraph of the topic; generally under the main headings I find the introduction to the concept and smaller headings tell you details/examples. > > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Tue May 3 01:22:47 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 21:22:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: <4dbf5007.42abe60a.5d2a.6f68@mx.google.com> References: <4dbf5007.42abe60a.5d2a.6f68@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Chris: no--I meant making it available makes sence from a business standpoint. Sorry for the confusion. On May 2, 2011, at 8:44 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Wow! Seriously? But how does it make sense from a business standpoint? Companies in the private sector only work for profit, right? They're all putting their good or service out to the world with the hopes of earning money (a profit) from that good or service. Using this example, the authors are putting their good (books) out to the world with the hopes that people will buy their books and therefore they will earn a profit off of the sold books. So, again, by enableing text-to-speech on E-book readers, the authors are opening the door to 1.3 million more potential buyers (and then some) than they're currently tapping into, which, if some of those 1.3 million people buy their books, will increase the profit coming into the authors, which is the end goal. What am I missing here? > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 17:24:32 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Chris: > Your logic is flawless. > Taking it from a business point, > it makes complete sense though. > Here's the thing: > those groups sometimes make very dumb decisions with a closed mind. > For example: can you imagine they tried to attack the sale of second hand books? > > Like, > say you have a book and sold it to someone who really wants it, > well, they tried to classify that as a violation of copyright! law. > > > So yeah, those groups aren't always logical about their decisions. > > Jorge > > > > On May 2, 2011, at 3:55 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > > That's their argument, but it makes no sense to me. There are about 3.1 million blind people in the country. So the authors really would be getting * more * money from * more * customers wanting to buy and read their books, but can't because the E-books are inaccessible and only 5 percent of books are available in Braille. I don't get it! If they're worried about money from sold books so much, then they should be happy that in enableing text-to-speech on E-book readers like the Kindle, there would be more books sold. Therefore, by enableing TTS on the Kindle, the revenue from sold books coming into the authors would be * raised, * not lowered! See the iPad, hint hint. > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 1 May 2011 21:57:10 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Is it true they're not allowing it because "its a market?" > > In other words, > they wanna record text to speech engines reading books to sell as part of mainstream sales later on and so they're not allowing it in current devices. > > > On May 1, 2011, at 9:25 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > > Partly. But we're nowhere near there yet and some Kindle books still don't > allow speech access. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 4:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Glad to have the coalition website; and did the kindle become accessible? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tina Hansen > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 7:04 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Maybe I can explain. The Reading Rights Coalition is not officially > affiliated with the NFB, but it's a consortium of organizations who have > voiced their concerns about access to the Kindle and other mainstream > electronic books. The coalition is made up of blindness organizations as > well as organizations with other disabilities that make reading print > difficult. The web site is > > www.readingrights.org > > Thanks. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma > hb%40earthl > ink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Tue May 3 01:41:05 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 18:41:05 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material References: <4dbf4c2d.8735e50a.7baa.ffffab0f@mx.google.com><2CF8B64A184943328903C8CADDB5A8BA@OwnerPC> <1783E14CB3F84ADCBDEE81AF0CB11783@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Do you find the MSWord version of bookmarks kind of cumbersome to use? ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"=20 Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >I have jaws 12 but as you said, a huge limitation to the place mark feat= ure > is one per document and that doesn't help much when studying since the=20 > text > is over 20 pages per file which is a chapter. > > > -----Original Message-----=20 > From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:09 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > Also, if you have JAWS 12, and you need to mark your place just for the > moment while you go somewhere else in the document, you can use ALT,=20 > windows > k to mark your place and windows k to return to it. I wish that FS woul= d > allow for multiple place markers like the BrailleNote does. > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Ian Perrault" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:01 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > >> >> Hi All, >> A tip: If I'm reading an e-text book on my laptop with JAWS, and I don= 't >> want to lose my place, I mark my place by putting *****, then saving t= he >> Word document since the book is in Word usually, then when I want to >> reread >> it, I just do a find and hit *****. I just came up with that method on= my >> own, and it's five stars, not three as JAWS says. >> Ian >> Ian >> >> -----Original Message-----=20 >> From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net >> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 8:50 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >> >> Oh, maybe the website for the publisher or book will explain the topic= s=20 >> in >> the book. I'll check. Some books have a website with interactive >> quizzes, >> study guides, etc. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message-----=20 >> From: Chris Nusbaum >> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 8:28 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >> >> Yes, you're right! So, let me give you another option. If you >> read a textbook online, usually the Web site will offer a form >> field where you can search for topics in the book. Although we >> don't use it a lot, we can get all our textbooks for class on >> either www.classzone.com or on the publisher's Web site, either >> for science and math: www.phsschool.com or for English: >> www.glencoe.com. If you're using JAWS and get your textbooks >> online, hit insert F 5 for the select a form field list. See if >> there's a "search book" or "search index" or something like that >> in the list. If so, try that! >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 17:42:34 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >> >> Chris, >> I use a computer; but as I said to find a text segment, you got >> to know the >> words exactly you're looking for. If you have a variation on it, >> that won't >> help. Plus some stuff is probably just in the index/glossary, >> like >> definitions. Often the index is not part of my e-text and even >> if it is, >> its so big that using a computer may not be practical to find it. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Chris Nusbaum >> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 3:55 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >> >> I don't know whether you use a computer or notetaker to read >> E-texts, but if you have JAWS on a computer or use a Braille-Note >> BT, you can use a find command to find a text string, or >> word/phrase in a large document like a textbook. On a >> Braille-Note, hit space with F for the find command. Then it >> will ask you, "Search forward or back?" If you want to search for >> something that you know is further into the text than you >> currently are, het f for forward, and to search for something >> before the place where you are, hit b for back. Then, it will >> prompt "Find?" Type the text string you want to search for and >> hit Enter. If it finds the string you're searching for, it will >> put your cursor under that string. If you use JAWS on your >> computer, I think the find command is Alt F3, but don't quote me >> on that. I'll have to check and get back to you on that. If >> there's someone else on the list who knows what the Find command >> on JAWS is, please let us know. Hope that helps! >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 00:31:32 -0400 >> Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >> >> Hi all, >> >> College texts are full of words and examples. Frustrating when >> you cannot skim through especially when you need the highlights >> for a test. >> I take notes when reading. But my notes don?=99t always amount to >> what the professor tells us to study for the test, if they tell >> us. >> >> So what do you do when the professor has a study guide? >> Some students take it and jot down the coresponding pages to the >> study topics and study those pages. >> How do you use it? >> Sometimes professors give a list of terms/concepts to study or a >> list of questions to guide your preparation. My communication >> professor outlined on the board what concepts we needed to know >> for our final. >> But here?=99s the thing. I cannot skim the text or look up words. >> My notes may or may not have them. Even if they do, its still >> looking for a needle in a haystack when reviewing for finals! So >> I?=99ve usually had to ask a reader; they act as my eyes and look >> in the index for the key words or skim for the key words or >> headings in the chapter. >> >> For me, I usually use audio whenever possible. But even with >> e-texts, I cannot skim because I don?=99t know the exact phrase >> and without that the computer does Not know what to look for; >> also >> it is divided in to chapters and I cannot search across chapters. >> Another thing, how do you work with open book exams? >> Do you have a reader there and they look up any info from the >> book? That is what I?=99ve done. >> Again, openbook tests let you use it as a reference tool, but >> that is hard for us. >> >> So any tips for studying or ?=9Cskimming??would be good. How >> can you direct a reader to actually skim? Usually they will read >> too much to me rather than just the main paragraph of the topic; >> generally under the main headings I find the introduction to the >> concept and smaller headings tell you details/examples. >> >> >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma >> hb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40= earthlink.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iperrault%40ho= tmail.com >> >> >> > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40w= avecable.com >> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40e= arthlink.net > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for=20 > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wa= vecable.com >=20 From wujing19861209 at hotmail.com Tue May 3 01:41:58 2011 From: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Jing_Crystal_Wu_=E5=90=B4=E6=99=B6?=) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 03:41:58 +0200 Subject: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China References: <281C8306452748D89E95636DC277B1C4@tinad85eb5cc31> Message-ID: Dear all, I am currently working in an orphanage for the blind in Beijing. Bethel Home has 45 blind children, and it's a NGO orphanage run by a french couple. Just wonder if any students will be interested to do internship or volunteer work in Beijing. You may visit www.bethelchina.org Most of the kids speak English and Chinese. Many of the volunteers are from Europe and North America. Too bad I have to return to school in Stockholm this summer. Hope any of you can support and help the kids in any way you can. Thanks. Sincerely, Crystal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tina Hansen" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Cc: "Correspondence Committee Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:51 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Food for Thought: Presenting Our Message as Theater > Not long ago, I learned that the Braille Institute in Los Angeles, > California, produced a series of recordings called Sound Solutions. They > present tools and techniques for coping with blindness and vision loss in > a number of dramatic formats. I thought: it might be cool if we could do > that. We do have a play at our National convention, but that's about it. > > I'm not sure if I agree with everything they present, but I still think we > can learn from it. To get an idea of what they do, you can go to > > http://www.airsla.org/soundsolutions.asp > > The episodes cover topics such as: home management, coping skills, and > many other topics, and with one exception, most of them are 30 minutes or > less. > > I'm presenting this for what it's worth, since I know that we have some > creative people out there, and I also know that if we can present our > message in a creative way, it might interest the younger generation. Check > it out. Thanks. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com > From wujing19861209 at hotmail.com Tue May 3 01:51:42 2011 From: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Jing_Crystal_Wu_=E5=90=B4=E6=99=B6?=) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 03:51:42 +0200 Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material References: <4dbf4c2d.8735e50a.7baa.ffffab0f@mx.google.com><2CF8B64A184943328903C8CADDB5A8BA@OwnerPC> <1783E14CB3F84ADCBDEE81AF0CB11783@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Dear all, I am new here on the list. My name is Crystal, and I am studying in Stockholm University, Sweden. After reading these messages, I must say, yes, it always gives me headache to skim the book, especially when exams come. I have Jaws 11, haven't upgrate to 12 yet. Crystal ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:19 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >I have jaws 12 but as you said, a huge limitation to the place mark feature > is one per document and that doesn't help much when studying since the > text > is over 20 pages per file which is a chapter. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:09 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > Also, if you have JAWS 12, and you need to mark your place just for the > moment while you go somewhere else in the document, you can use ALT, > windows > k to mark your place and windows k to return to it. I wish that FS would > allow for multiple place markers like the BrailleNote does. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ian Perrault" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:01 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > >> >> Hi All, >> A tip: If I'm reading an e-text book on my laptop with JAWS, and I don't >> want to lose my place, I mark my place by putting *****, then saving the >> Word document since the book is in Word usually, then when I want to >> reread >> it, I just do a find and hit *****. I just came up with that method on my >> own, and it's five stars, not three as JAWS says. >> Ian >> Ian >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net >> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 8:50 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >> >> Oh, maybe the website for the publisher or book will explain the topics >> in >> the book. I'll check. Some books have a website with interactive >> quizzes, >> study guides, etc. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Chris Nusbaum >> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 8:28 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >> >> Yes, you're right! So, let me give you another option. If you >> read a textbook online, usually the Web site will offer a form >> field where you can search for topics in the book. Although we >> don't use it a lot, we can get all our textbooks for class on >> either www.classzone.com or on the publisher's Web site, either >> for science and math: www.phsschool.com or for English: >> www.glencoe.com. If you're using JAWS and get your textbooks >> online, hit insert F 5 for the select a form field list. See if >> there's a "search book" or "search index" or something like that >> in the list. If so, try that! >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 17:42:34 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >> >> Chris, >> I use a computer; but as I said to find a text segment, you got >> to know the >> words exactly you're looking for. If you have a variation on it, >> that won't >> help. Plus some stuff is probably just in the index/glossary, >> like >> definitions. Often the index is not part of my e-text and even >> if it is, >> its so big that using a computer may not be practical to find it. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Chris Nusbaum >> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 3:55 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >> >> I don't know whether you use a computer or notetaker to read >> E-texts, but if you have JAWS on a computer or use a Braille-Note >> BT, you can use a find command to find a text string, or >> word/phrase in a large document like a textbook. On a >> Braille-Note, hit space with F for the find command. Then it >> will ask you, "Search forward or back?" If you want to search for >> something that you know is further into the text than you >> currently are, het f for forward, and to search for something >> before the place where you are, hit b for back. Then, it will >> prompt "Find?" Type the text string you want to search for and >> hit Enter. If it finds the string you're searching for, it will >> put your cursor under that string. If you use JAWS on your >> computer, I think the find command is Alt F3, but don't quote me >> on that. I'll have to check and get back to you on that. If >> there's someone else on the list who knows what the Find command >> on JAWS is, please let us know. Hope that helps! >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 00:31:32 -0400 >> Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >> >> Hi all, >> >> College texts are full of words and examples. Frustrating when >> you cannot skim through especially when you need the highlights >> for a test. >> I take notes when reading. But my notes don?셳 always amount to >> what the professor tells us to study for the test, if they tell >> us. >> >> So what do you do when the professor has a study guide? >> Some students take it and jot down the coresponding pages to the >> study topics and study those pages. >> How do you use it? >> Sometimes professors give a list of terms/concepts to study or a >> list of questions to guide your preparation. My communication >> professor outlined on the board what concepts we needed to know >> for our final. >> But here?셲 the thing. I cannot skim the text or look up words. >> My notes may or may not have them. Even if they do, its still >> looking for a needle in a haystack when reviewing for finals! So >> I?셶e usually had to ask a reader; they act as my eyes and look >> in the index for the key words or skim for the key words or >> headings in the chapter. >> >> For me, I usually use audio whenever possible. But even with >> e-texts, I cannot skim because I don?셳 know the exact phrase >> and without that the computer does Not know what to look for; >> also >> it is divided in to chapters and I cannot search across chapters. >> Another thing, how do you work with open book exams? >> Do you have a reader there and they look up any info from the >> book? That is what I?셶e done. >> Again, openbook tests let you use it as a reference tool, but >> that is hard for us. >> >> So any tips for studying or ?쐓kimming??would be good. How >> can you direct a reader to actually skim? Usually they will read >> too much to me rather than just the main paragraph of the topic; >> generally under the main headings I find the introduction to the >> concept and smaller headings tell you details/examples. >> >> >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma >> hb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iperrault%40hotmail.com >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com > From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Tue May 3 01:57:40 2011 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 19:57:40 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China In-Reply-To: References: <281C8306452748D89E95636DC277B1C4@tinad85eb5cc31> Message-ID: Crystal, What can the folks at the CCB in Denver, Colorado do for the orphanage? What can any ordinary people do to help the kids? I am interested in helping blind people overseas too, but not China necessarily. But it's fascinating. Do you have Skype? Do write me off list at thebluesisloose at gmail.com Thank you, Beth Taurasi On 5/2/11, Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 wrote: > Dear all, > > I am currently working in an orphanage for the blind in Beijing. Bethel Home > has 45 blind children, and it's a NGO orphanage run by a french couple. Just > wonder if any students will be interested to do internship or volunteer work > in Beijing. You may visit > www.bethelchina.org > > Most of the kids speak English and Chinese. Many of the volunteers are from > Europe and North America. Too bad I have to return to school in Stockholm > this summer. Hope any of you can support and help the kids in any way you > can. Thanks. > > Sincerely, > Crystal > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tina Hansen" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Cc: "Correspondence Committee Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:51 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Food for Thought: Presenting Our Message as Theater > > >> Not long ago, I learned that the Braille Institute in Los Angeles, >> California, produced a series of recordings called Sound Solutions. They >> present tools and techniques for coping with blindness and vision loss in >> a number of dramatic formats. I thought: it might be cool if we could do >> that. We do have a play at our National convention, but that's about it. >> >> I'm not sure if I agree with everything they present, but I still think we >> >> can learn from it. To get an idea of what they do, you can go to >> >> http://www.airsla.org/soundsolutions.asp >> >> The episodes cover topics such as: home management, coping skills, and >> many other topics, and with one exception, most of them are 30 minutes or >> less. >> >> I'm presenting this for what it's worth, since I know that we have some >> creative people out there, and I also know that if we can present our >> message in a creative way, it might interest the younger generation. Check >> >> it out. Thanks. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From k7uij at panix.com Tue May 3 01:59:11 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 18:59:11 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: <4dbf5007.42abe60a.5d2a.6f68@mx.google.com> References: <4dbf5007.42abe60a.5d2a.6f68@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <00b901cc0935$b32c8de0$1985a9a0$@panix.com> Chris: I think we're bandying about statistics in cavalier fashion. I know 1.3 million is quoted. But how many of those individuals consider themselves visually impaired and hence won't touch anything having to do with adaptive tech unless it's a magnifying lens or machine? And if we're counting the elderly, how many actually will use a Kindle? I know my mother does (she's ninety-six) but she's very-much an exception. Finally, few realize it but if our Independence market sells twenty thousand of *any* item, it's doing a land-office business. Bottom line: people who consider that the blind constitute a tremendous new market ripe for the picking are IMO kidding themselves. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 5:45 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Wow! Seriously? But how does it make sense from a business standpoint? Companies in the private sector only work for profit, right? They're all putting their good or service out to the world with the hopes of earning money (a profit) from that good or service. Using this example, the authors are putting their good (books) out to the world with the hopes that people will buy their books and therefore they will earn a profit off of the sold books. So, again, by enableing text-to-speech on E-book readers, the authors are opening the door to 1.3 million more potential buyers (and then some) than they're currently tapping into, which, if some of those 1.3 million people buy their books, will increase the profit coming into the authors, which is the end goal. What am I missing here? Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez References: <20F30263B78D44D98DE4F17EDD02B660@OwnerPC> <76ECABBF-7025-4A70-A1B6-54DF93D9EC7E@gmail.com> <613C0503A5A54ED89A6C7D97C6DB3AE1@OwnerPC> <089F83C8-C314-43F3-B922-28D184F7F486@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00bb01cc0937$05920a50$10b61ef0$@panix.com> Arielle: I admire the clear presentation of your position. And if an audible traffic signal made one brief noise at the start of a WALK cycle and then shut up, I wouldn't be so disenchanted with them. However, I am one of those individuals who finds the majority of them distracting at a minimum. And I never found T intersections and turn-arrows to be a significant barrier to safe crossing; what *is* a barrier is cars that don't obey their *own* signals and APS's wouldn't help with this. Moreover, with respect to the deaf-blind, I think we of NFB and, for that matter, every other organization of the blind, speak with forked tongue. One the one hand, we often say that audible pedestrian signals are no substitute for good training and listening. Yet we speak of having vibrotactile signals for the deaf-blind who, by definition, cannot listen. We can't have it both ways. I know the deaf-blind don't like to hear this and we don't like to say it but methinks we need to adopt a consistent, congruent position on travel of the deaf-blind without reference to sentiment. Let the flames begin. (big smile) Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 4:42 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS Hi Ashley and all, I don't know exactly what NFB's official position is at this point. I personally am a big fan of audible traffic signals, for a few reasons. First, as you pointed out, there are several kinds of intersections where the auditory cue to cross is rather subtle-such as T-intersections, those where the parallel street is generally quiet or those with leading turn arrows, where you have to listen for the turning traffic to stop before crossing. I know it is possible to reliably cross these kinds of intersections using traffic cues alone, but the potential for mistakes (both missing the cue to cross and inadvertently crossing at the wrong time) is substantial especially for those who have had insufficient training. Second, as far as I know, there is no reliable way to tell when your walk signal is about to end. So if you come up to an intersection and the light is in your favor, there's no way to tell whether you will have enough time to cross before the light changes. The only really safe way to handle this is to wait until the light turns red and then green again, which can be inconvenient. Trust me, I've gambled on these and tried to cross without enough time-the result is scary not to mention embarrassing. Finally, though I know this logic is not always popular, I do think that if the sighted are given a clear cue to cross the street and it is not an undue hardship to make that signal accessible to the blind, it should be done. I can't imagine an intersection where sighted pedestrians are expected to watch the traffic without any kind of walk signal or light indicating when it was safe to cross. That being said, I don't think this necessarily has to be our biggest priority at this time. I also recognize that some blind travelers find audible signals bothersome and I would support some way of making the sound optional or implementing a tactile (i.e. vibrating) signal, which would also benefit the deaf-blind. Arielle On 5/2/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > I thought it wasn't supposed to be enforced till like 2012? > > > On May 2, 2011, at 7:14 PM, wrote: > >> George, >> Actually the ACB seems as mad as ever; yes they won in the court; but >> the government has not produced accessible currency yet. >> Some do not feel the decision will be enforced. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez >> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:57 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS >> >> I believe the national is officially against expanding the use of APS. >> >> As far as accessible currency, didn't the ACB already close that case >> in court? >> ACB V. US trasury 2009 or something like that? >> >> >> On May 2, 2011, at 6:36 PM, wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they >>> are taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency >>> topics and really trashing the NFB and they don't know the real >>> positions and facts. >>> They think NFB opposes both. >>> I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions? >>> Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. >>> >>> What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do >>> you think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? >>> Personally, I'd like the APS at intersections where you have to >>> press the walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk >>> signal to know when our time starts; you have to press the button in >>> order to tell the computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk >>> phase to cross the street. I think these are called actuated >>> signals. These streets favor drivers, not pedestrians; the busier >>> streets get more traffic time. That change of the signal is activated by a computer. >>> >>> At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, >>> without a button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues >>> to hear to cross. >>> I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn >>> lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some >>> signals even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk interval. >>> >>> So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient >>> traffic cues to cross the street. I've tried to learn how to cross >>> T streets, and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help >>> there too. No parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. >>> >>> Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on >>> APS, so I'm not sure what it is now. I certainly don't want them >>> everywhere, but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see their use. >>> >>> Ashley >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertech >>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >> 0earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechj >> orgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president > %40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From k7uij at panix.com Tue May 3 02:10:46 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 19:10:46 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Thank You for your Support! In-Reply-To: References: <1105336641650.1101553811939.23196.6.37095025@scheduler> Message-ID: <00bc01cc0937$50f73010$f2e59030$@panix.com> I think we should issue an ultimatum: change your name back and we will support. (evil grin) Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gabriel Cazares Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 4:37 PM To: tabs_students; nabs-l Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Thank You for your Support! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Learning Ally, formerly RFB&D" Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 10:07:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Thank You for your Support! To: gcazares10 at gmail.com Having trouble viewing this email? Click here to view this email as a webpage. http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=dpqs87bab&v=001JbA8pPO1z- MhGsslJGOwOQrhHUKPKfZROcNJuT2qugDy9zjJwS0N0ZTPaco5TIEgbV2suMeaJiVt4A8bH6CsjO n9AvQvdAzGe3dA5eNmAEwKzLcGYmH-zcpsnhbfud9vn4Ql8NC_UmQL2RZ100rfGXnfNsibLTfrzQ lwfGCV1zzLbt_MZsJCCFX7--7PN9i5Y6j-IMJcJhRE_D66I3_dKoh3hHY5wqrdl6L3U8s_vM4lS4 MVOIt3esAnMtPlZuSbjQYUxlW5RvJt9A2p5_bdN2hDYlBOd6IEXwJPpqM8JRCBbez-1Bpafa600u 3Vkz5gWU9kNKGLcqx-mXKTMk3aUcVpFIGy-C7GU2esRrcVe3zwo_pdOzBsUn0_x_CabOpbXUt2BI M2CUkbHw5D-4X-xw%3D%3D You're receiving this email because of your relationship with Learning Ally. Please confirm your continued interest in receiving email from us. http://visitor.r20.constantcontact.com/c.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&t=1105336641650.2 3196.123941028.2&m=1101553811939&wl=F You only have to do this once. You may unsubscribe http://visitor.constantcontact.com/do?p=un&m=001K33QEjKvDIIHs3UwsZPI7A%3D%3D &se=001IyrhS4OSBPQ%3D&t=0018WK4DlChgVvCBYZ1jrRsbw%3D%3D&lang=001FCSs65SMrsI% 3D&reason=001y5KaVlBn7_Y%3D&llr=dpqs87bab if you no longer wish to receive our emails. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ Stay Engaged, Spread the Word ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ May 2, 2011 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ Thank You and an Update on Federal DOE Funding for Accessible Educational Materials First, Thank you! Your rapid and clear call for continued support for accessible educational materials was heard by Members of Congress and had a positive impact on the FY 2011 appropriation to the Department of Education. The compelling testimonials many of you have shared with us added a depth and poignancy to the discussion that numbers alone could not convey. Your personal stories carried weight in Washington. Second, despite many key Members supporting the program, there was no specific funding appropriated for Learning Ally. This unfortunate loss of congressionally dedicated funding means that our campaign is far from over. Our efforts need to shift to the Department of Education and the decisions to be made by Secretary Duncan. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ Fiscal Year 2011's Fight Shifts Under the budget plan passed by Congress, Secretary Duncan has the discretion to hold a competition for the development, production and distribution of educational materials in accessible formats to students with visual impairments and other print disabilities. Consequently, we at Learning Ally are working closely with our supporters on Capitol Hill to encourage the Secretary to prepare and publish a competition for a national program for accessible textbooks. This priority was part of President Obama's 2011 budget plan, and we are striving to preserve this going forward. We are working to encourage the Secretary to act quickly so there will be confidence in this program's future. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ Next Year's Debate is Close at Hand While we continue to work on the FY 2011 program, we need to also turn our attention to the now emerging FY 2012 (October 1, 2011-September 30, 2012) budget and appropriations work. As in FY 2011, there will be no earmarks or dedicated funding for Learning Ally or hundreds of other valuable national programs. Our goal will be to protect the crucial ongoing funding that the Department of Education provides for accessible educational materials in the FY 2012 budget plan, and to ensure that the hundreds of thousands of students across the United States who depend on accessible materials for their education can continue to receive these tools. This debate will be ongoing throughout this spring, summer and well into autumn. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ Stay Engaged, Spread the Word We expect your voice will play a crucial role in the debate. Members of Congress need to be reminded regularly of the real human impact that this program has. As we approach key milestones, your engagement will be needed to drive this point. We need you to be an evangelist; spreading the word to your family, friends and colleagues about this program and encouraging them to sign the petition at the link below and enlist in this endeavor.We need as many advocates to sign as possible, so please ask everyone you know to join us and sign the petition. http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/rfbd/ [http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&et=1105336641650&s=23196&e=001U2rP5 AzTh0XdpdaaEP0Vf0vfMvWXsp3T6txf1N8nwPs4lAr8YfoaaJDpVfFxjdMVRxeO6XB6_nLFU3o87 IpEAHG_xfXxUhwW4f7Osy9KFy6OF4R-wBW1ho6QNMquMRw6FsiIxHjk2Cs=] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ Visit the Policy Advocates Center As we keep the pressure up on the Department of Education with our allies in Congress, we will update our Policy Advocates Center [http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&et=1105336641650&s=23196&e=001U2rP5 AzTh0W6E_nXwJgKmg8wVvwM0cng1er2weMwiFuKWGBzJGyrJYC53GSgAiuKlHxU0ZbTB0fXwaP6c FsOVMnnocCkJs1XtAnDs6jOk7_hLXHPpLCoq6QWedyjbpjpNTL3eelqeQbSvT5i84cMcX7cyB_ya e1xTzlP8duz130jarRe37l1Cg==] with developments as they occur. We will also share critical action alerts with you when key decisions are to be made. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ Thank you Your support has helped to preserve this program so far, and will be a key to its future! 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Update Profile/Email Address http://visitor.constantcontact.com/do?p=oo&m=001K33QEjKvDIIHs3UwsZPI7A%3D%3D &se=001IyrhS4OSBPQ%3D&t=0018WK4DlChgVvCBYZ1jrRsbw%3D%3D&lang=001FCSs65SMrsI% 3D&reason=001y5KaVlBn7_Y%3D&llr=dpqs87bab Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe(TM) http://visitor.constantcontact.com/do?p=un&m=001K33QEjKvDIIHs3UwsZPI7A%3D%3D &se=001IyrhS4OSBPQ%3D&t=0018WK4DlChgVvCBYZ1jrRsbw%3D%3D&lang=001FCSs65SMrsI% 3D&reason=001y5KaVlBn7_Y%3D&llr=dpqs87bab Privacy Policy: http://ui.constantcontact.com/roving/CCPrivacyPolicy.jsp Learning Ally | 20 Roszel Road | Princeton | NJ | 08540 -- Gabriel M. Cazares, 2nd Vice President Texas Association of Blind Students - TABS (A Division of the National Federation of the Blind of Texas) www.nfb-texas.org/tabs.html Phone: 713-581-0619 "Of course, loyalty to one's friends is an important principle. But so is writing what you believe--otherwise, why bother to write at all?"-Arianna Huffington _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From wujing19861209 at hotmail.com Tue May 3 02:13:59 2011 From: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Jing_Crystal_Wu_=E5=90=B4=E6=99=B6?=) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 04:13:59 +0200 Subject: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China References: <281C8306452748D89E95636DC277B1C4@tinad85eb5cc31> Message-ID: Dear Beth, I am teaching English at the center, and also doing project consultant work. So far, we have one mobility instructor from California, one multiple-disability educator from France, one blind Braille teacher, one music teacher, and five Chinese teachers. Of course, the orphanage have many care-givers, administraters, fund raisers, public relation manager and staff members. Bethel has foster care, education and self-care training for kids. Bethel even has its own farm field, so the kids can help to feed dogs, goats, chickens, ducks. Right now, I am trying to push to open up a job training course; however, I can't stay in Beijing for too long. If any of you is interested to do job training, counciling, independence training, I am sure you will be very helpful in Bethel. I must encourage kids to learn, to live and to travel independently. It'll be wonderful if we can something together. My skype is jing.wu.crystal MSN: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com Sincerely, Crystal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:57 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China > Crystal, > What can the folks at the CCB in Denver, Colorado do for the > orphanage? What can any ordinary people do to help the kids? I am > interested in helping blind people overseas too, but not China > necessarily. But it's fascinating. Do you have Skype? Do write me > off list at > thebluesisloose at gmail.com > > Thank you, > Beth Taurasi > > On 5/2/11, Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> I am currently working in an orphanage for the blind in Beijing. Bethel >> Home >> has 45 blind children, and it's a NGO orphanage run by a french couple. >> Just >> wonder if any students will be interested to do internship or volunteer >> work >> in Beijing. You may visit >> www.bethelchina.org >> >> Most of the kids speak English and Chinese. Many of the volunteers are >> from >> Europe and North America. Too bad I have to return to school in Stockholm >> this summer. Hope any of you can support and help the kids in any way you >> can. Thanks. >> >> Sincerely, >> Crystal >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tina Hansen" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Cc: "Correspondence Committee Mailing List" >> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:51 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Food for Thought: Presenting Our Message as Theater >> >> >>> Not long ago, I learned that the Braille Institute in Los Angeles, >>> California, produced a series of recordings called Sound Solutions. They >>> present tools and techniques for coping with blindness and vision loss >>> in >>> a number of dramatic formats. I thought: it might be cool if we could do >>> that. We do have a play at our National convention, but that's about it. >>> >>> I'm not sure if I agree with everything they present, but I still think >>> we >>> >>> can learn from it. To get an idea of what they do, you can go to >>> >>> http://www.airsla.org/soundsolutions.asp >>> >>> The episodes cover topics such as: home management, coping skills, and >>> many other topics, and with one exception, most of them are 30 minutes >>> or >>> less. >>> >>> I'm presenting this for what it's worth, since I know that we have some >>> creative people out there, and I also know that if we can present our >>> message in a creative way, it might interest the younger generation. >>> Check >>> >>> it out. Thanks. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue May 3 02:20:19 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Mon, 02 May 2011 22:20:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS Message-ID: <20110503022019.23715.62947@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> Mike, I don't think there's anything wrong or illogical in taking the position that, in the case of the blind, good training and listening usually do the trick. But as we all know, the deaf-blind don't have the ability to look or listen, so they will need a few more adaptations than we do. I don't think that acknowledging this fact is a problem. Of course, we would also have to take the position that the deaf-blind should get much better travel training than they currently get in order to make special devices more useful to them, and we'd have to make devices that are actually useful to the deaf-blind. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Arielle: > I admire the clear presentation of your position. And if an audible traffic > signal made one brief noise at the start of a WALK cycle and then shut up, I > wouldn't be so disenchanted with them. However, I am one of those > individuals who finds the majority of them distracting at a minimum. And I > never found T intersections and turn-arrows to be a significant barrier to > safe crossing; what *is* a barrier is cars that don't obey their *own* > signals and APS's wouldn't help with this. > Moreover, with respect to the deaf-blind, I think we of NFB and, for that > matter, every other organization of the blind, speak with forked tongue. > One the one hand, we often say that audible pedestrian signals are no > substitute for good training and listening. Yet we speak of having > vibrotactile signals for the deaf-blind who, by definition, cannot listen. > We can't have it both ways. I know the deaf-blind don't like to hear this > and we don't like to say it but methinks we need to adopt a consistent, > congruent position on travel of the deaf-blind without reference to > sentiment. > Let the flames begin. (big smile) > Mike > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Arielle Silverman > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 4:42 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS > Hi Ashley and all, > I don't know exactly what NFB's official position is at this point. I > personally am a big fan of audible traffic signals, for a few reasons. > First, as you pointed out, there are several kinds of intersections where > the auditory cue to cross is rather subtle-such as T-intersections, those > where the parallel street is generally quiet or those with leading turn > arrows, where you have to listen for the turning traffic to stop before > crossing. I know it is possible to reliably cross these kinds of > intersections using traffic cues alone, but the potential for mistakes (both > missing the cue to cross and inadvertently crossing at the wrong time) is > substantial especially for those who have had insufficient training. Second, > as far as I know, there is no reliable way to tell when your walk signal is > about to end. So if you come up to an intersection and the light is in your > favor, there's no way to tell whether you will have enough time to cross > before the light changes. The only really safe way to handle this is to wait > until the light turns red and then green again, which can be inconvenient. > Trust me, I've gambled on these and tried to cross without enough time-the > result is scary not to mention embarrassing. Finally, though I know this > logic is not always popular, I do think that if the sighted are given a > clear cue to cross the street and it is not an undue hardship to make that > signal accessible to the blind, it should be done. I can't imagine an > intersection where sighted pedestrians are expected to watch the traffic > without any kind of walk signal or light indicating when it was safe to > cross. > That being said, I don't think this necessarily has to be our biggest > priority at this time. I also recognize that some blind travelers find > audible signals bothersome and I would support some way of making the sound > optional or implementing a tactile (i.e. vibrating) signal, which would also > benefit the deaf-blind. > Arielle > On 5/2/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> I thought it wasn't supposed to be enforced till like 2012? >> On May 2, 2011, at 7:14 PM, wrote: >>> George, >>> Actually the ACB seems as mad as ever; yes they won in the court; but >>> the government has not produced accessible currency yet. >>> Some do not feel the decision will be enforced. >>> Ashley >>> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez >>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:57 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS >>> I believe the national is officially against expanding the use of APS. >>> As far as accessible currency, didn't the ACB already close that case >>> in court? >>> ACB V. US trasury 2009 or something like that? >>> On May 2, 2011, at 6:36 PM, wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they >>>> are taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency >>>> topics and really trashing the NFB and they don't know the real >>>> positions and facts. >>>> They think NFB opposes both. >>>> I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions? >>>> Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. >>>> What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do >>>> you think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? >>>> Personally, I'd like the APS at intersections where you have to >>>> press the walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk >>>> signal to know when our time starts; you have to press the button in >>>> order to tell the computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk >>>> phase to cross the street. I think these are called actuated >>>> signals. These streets favor drivers, not pedestrians; the busier >>>> streets get more traffic time. That change of the signal is activated > by a computer. >>>> At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, >>>> without a button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues >>>> to hear to cross. >>>> I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn >>>> lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some >>>> signals even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk > interval. >>>> So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient >>>> traffic cues to cross the street. I've tried to learn how to cross >>>> T streets, and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help >>>> there too. No parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. >>>> Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on >>>> APS, so I'm not sure what it is now. I certainly don't want them >>>> everywhere, but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see > their use. >>>> Ashley >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertech >>>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>> 0earthlink.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechj >>> orgepaez%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president >> %40gmail.com > -- > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > Phone: 602-502-2255 > Email: > nabs.president at gmail.com > Website: > www.nabslink.org > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Tue May 3 02:23:11 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 22:23:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Thank You for your Support! In-Reply-To: <00bc01cc0937$50f73010$f2e59030$@panix.com> References: <1105336641650.1101553811939.23196.6.37095025@scheduler> <00bc01cc0937$50f73010$f2e59030$@panix.com> Message-ID: <2C8AA6C0-7437-40FE-80FA-0D16C494DA71@gmail.com> Yep. On May 2, 2011, at 10:10 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > I think we should issue an ultimatum: change your name back and we will > support. (evil grin) > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Gabriel Cazares > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 4:37 PM > To: tabs_students; nabs-l > Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Thank You for your Support! > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Learning Ally, formerly RFB&D" > Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 10:07:38 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Thank You for your Support! > To: gcazares10 at gmail.com > > Having trouble viewing this email? > Click here to view this email as a webpage. > http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=dpqs87bab&v=001JbA8pPO1z- > MhGsslJGOwOQrhHUKPKfZROcNJuT2qugDy9zjJwS0N0ZTPaco5TIEgbV2suMeaJiVt4A8bH6CsjO > n9AvQvdAzGe3dA5eNmAEwKzLcGYmH-zcpsnhbfud9vn4Ql8NC_UmQL2RZ100rfGXnfNsibLTfrzQ > lwfGCV1zzLbt_MZsJCCFX7--7PN9i5Y6j-IMJcJhRE_D66I3_dKoh3hHY5wqrdl6L3U8s_vM4lS4 > MVOIt3esAnMtPlZuSbjQYUxlW5RvJt9A2p5_bdN2hDYlBOd6IEXwJPpqM8JRCBbez-1Bpafa600u > 3Vkz5gWU9kNKGLcqx-mXKTMk3aUcVpFIGy-C7GU2esRrcVe3zwo_pdOzBsUn0_x_CabOpbXUt2BI > M2CUkbHw5D-4X-xw%3D%3D > You're receiving this email because of your relationship with Learning Ally. > Please confirm your continued interest in receiving email from us. > http://visitor.r20.constantcontact.com/c.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&t=1105336641650.2 > 3196.123941028.2&m=1101553811939&wl=F > You only have to do this once. You may unsubscribe > http://visitor.constantcontact.com/do?p=un&m=001K33QEjKvDIIHs3UwsZPI7A%3D%3D > &se=001IyrhS4OSBPQ%3D&t=0018WK4DlChgVvCBYZ1jrRsbw%3D%3D&lang=001FCSs65SMrsI% > 3D&reason=001y5KaVlBn7_Y%3D&llr=dpqs87bab > if you no longer wish to receive our emails. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > Stay Engaged, Spread the Word > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > May 2, 2011 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > Thank You and an Update on Federal DOE Funding for Accessible Educational > Materials > > First, Thank you! Your rapid and clear call for continued support for > accessible educational materials was heard by Members of Congress and had a > positive impact on the FY 2011 appropriation to the Department of Education. > The compelling testimonials many of you have shared with us added a depth > and poignancy to the discussion that numbers alone could not convey. Your > personal stories carried weight in Washington. > Second, despite many key Members supporting the program, there was no > specific funding appropriated for Learning Ally. This unfortunate loss of > congressionally dedicated funding means that our campaign is far from over. > Our efforts need to shift to the Department of Education and the decisions > to be made by Secretary Duncan. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > Fiscal Year 2011's Fight Shifts > > Under the budget plan passed by Congress, Secretary Duncan has the > discretion to hold a competition for the development, production and > distribution of educational materials in accessible formats to students with > visual impairments and other print disabilities. > Consequently, we at Learning Ally are working closely with our supporters on > Capitol Hill to encourage the Secretary to prepare and publish a competition > for a national program for accessible textbooks. This priority was part of > President Obama's 2011 budget plan, and we are striving to preserve this > going forward. We are working to encourage the Secretary to act quickly so > there will be confidence in this program's future. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > Next Year's Debate is Close at Hand > > While we continue to work on the FY 2011 program, we need to also turn our > attention to the now emerging FY 2012 (October 1, 2011-September 30, 2012) > budget and appropriations work. As in FY 2011, there will be no earmarks or > dedicated funding for Learning Ally or hundreds of other valuable national > programs. > Our goal will be to protect the crucial ongoing funding that the Department > of Education provides for accessible educational materials in the FY 2012 > budget plan, and to ensure that the hundreds of thousands of students > across the United States who depend on accessible materials for their > education can continue to receive these tools. This debate will be ongoing > throughout this spring, summer and well into autumn. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > Stay Engaged, Spread the Word > > We expect your voice will play a crucial role in the debate. Members of > Congress need to be reminded regularly of the real human impact that this > program has. As we approach key milestones, your engagement will be needed > to drive this point. > We need you to be an evangelist; spreading the word to your family, friends > and colleagues about this program and encouraging them to sign the petition > at the link below and enlist in this endeavor.We need as many advocates to > sign as possible, so please ask everyone you know to join us and sign the > petition. > > > http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/rfbd/ > [http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&et=1105336641650&s=23196&e=001U2rP5 > AzTh0XdpdaaEP0Vf0vfMvWXsp3T6txf1N8nwPs4lAr8YfoaaJDpVfFxjdMVRxeO6XB6_nLFU3o87 > IpEAHG_xfXxUhwW4f7Osy9KFy6OF4R-wBW1ho6QNMquMRw6FsiIxHjk2Cs=] > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > Visit the Policy Advocates Center > As we keep the pressure up on the Department of Education with our allies in > Congress, we will update our Policy Advocates Center > [http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&et=1105336641650&s=23196&e=001U2rP5 > AzTh0W6E_nXwJgKmg8wVvwM0cng1er2weMwiFuKWGBzJGyrJYC53GSgAiuKlHxU0ZbTB0fXwaP6c > FsOVMnnocCkJs1XtAnDs6jOk7_hLXHPpLCoq6QWedyjbpjpNTL3eelqeQbSvT5i84cMcX7cyB_ya > e1xTzlP8duz130jarRe37l1Cg==] > with developments as they occur. 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Cazares, > 2nd Vice President > Texas Association of Blind Students - TABS (A Division of the National > Federation of the Blind of Texas) www.nfb-texas.org/tabs.html > Phone: 713-581-0619 > "Of course, loyalty to one's friends is an important principle. But so is > writing what you believe--otherwise, why bother to write at all?"-Arianna > Huffington > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Tue May 3 02:26:53 2011 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 22:26:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China References: <281C8306452748D89E95636DC277B1C4@tinad85eb5cc31> Message-ID: Is this a religious organization? RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 10:13 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China > Dear Beth, > > I am teaching English at the center, and also doing project consultant > work. So far, we have one mobility instructor from California, one > multiple-disability educator from France, one blind Braille teacher, one > music teacher, and five Chinese teachers. Of course, the orphanage have > many care-givers, administraters, fund raisers, public relation manager > and staff members. Bethel has foster care, education and self-care > training for kids. Bethel even has its own farm field, so the kids can > help to feed dogs, goats, chickens, ducks. Right now, I am trying to push > to open up a job training course; however, I can't stay in Beijing for too > long. If any of you is interested to do job training, counciling, > independence training, I am sure you will be very helpful in Bethel. > > I must encourage kids to learn, to live and to travel independently. It'll > be wonderful if we can something together. My skype is > jing.wu.crystal > MSN: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com > > Sincerely, > Crystal > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Beth" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:57 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China > > >> Crystal, >> What can the folks at the CCB in Denver, Colorado do for the >> orphanage? What can any ordinary people do to help the kids? I am >> interested in helping blind people overseas too, but not China >> necessarily. But it's fascinating. Do you have Skype? Do write me >> off list at >> thebluesisloose at gmail.com >> >> Thank you, >> Beth Taurasi >> >> On 5/2/11, Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 wrote: >>> Dear all, >>> >>> I am currently working in an orphanage for the blind in Beijing. Bethel >>> Home >>> has 45 blind children, and it's a NGO orphanage run by a french couple. >>> Just >>> wonder if any students will be interested to do internship or volunteer >>> work >>> in Beijing. You may visit >>> www.bethelchina.org >>> >>> Most of the kids speak English and Chinese. Many of the volunteers are >>> from >>> Europe and North America. Too bad I have to return to school in >>> Stockholm >>> this summer. Hope any of you can support and help the kids in any way >>> you >>> can. Thanks. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Crystal >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Tina Hansen" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Cc: "Correspondence Committee Mailing List" >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:51 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Food for Thought: Presenting Our Message as Theater >>> >>> >>>> Not long ago, I learned that the Braille Institute in Los Angeles, >>>> California, produced a series of recordings called Sound Solutions. >>>> They >>>> present tools and techniques for coping with blindness and vision loss >>>> in >>>> a number of dramatic formats. I thought: it might be cool if we could >>>> do >>>> that. We do have a play at our National convention, but that's about >>>> it. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure if I agree with everything they present, but I still think >>>> we >>>> >>>> can learn from it. To get an idea of what they do, you can go to >>>> >>>> http://www.airsla.org/soundsolutions.asp >>>> >>>> The episodes cover topics such as: home management, coping skills, and >>>> many other topics, and with one exception, most of them are 30 minutes >>>> or >>>> less. >>>> >>>> I'm presenting this for what it's worth, since I know that we have some >>>> creative people out there, and I also know that if we can present our >>>> message in a creative way, it might interest the younger generation. >>>> Check >>>> >>>> it out. Thanks. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com > From k7uij at panix.com Tue May 3 02:38:29 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 19:38:29 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material In-Reply-To: <13F9180032F1485B9618380482D05488@OwnerPC> References: <4dbf0c45.42abe60a.5d2a.6b9c@mx.google.com> <13F9180032F1485B9618380482D05488@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <00c201cc093b$308a6b40$919f41c0$@panix.com> I say again: the answer is a human reader. Look at the May, 1993 Braille Monitor for an article by Peggy Elliott on this subject and in Future Reflections (some time in 1995, I think) for = a similar article by Peggy Elliott and Barbara Cheadle. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 2:43 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material Chris, I use a computer; but as I said to find a text segment, you got to know = the words exactly you're looking for. If you have a variation on it, that won't help. Plus some stuff is probably just in the index/glossary, like definitions. Often the index is not part of my e-text and even if it = is, its so big that using a computer may not be practical to find it. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 3:55 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material I don't know whether you use a computer or notetaker to read E-texts, = but if you have JAWS on a computer or use a Braille-Note BT, you can use a = find command to find a text string, or word/phrase in a large document like a textbook. On a Braille-Note, hit space with F for the find command. = Then it will ask you, "Search forward or back?" If you want to search for something that you know is further into the text than you currently are, het f for forward, and to search for something before the place where = you are, hit b for back. Then, it will prompt "Find?" Type the text string = you want to search for and hit Enter. If it finds the string you're = searching for, it will put your cursor under that string. If you use JAWS on your computer, I think the find command is Alt F3, but don't quote me on = that. I'll have to check and get back to you on that. If there's someone else = on the list who knows what the Find command on JAWS is, please let us know. Hope that helps! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: References: <4dbf0c41.42abe60a.5d2a.6b9a@mx.google.com> <74CCEC89-041A-4DE8-9AC0-5F635AC6A27A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c301cc093b$7aca4ae0$705ee0a0$@panix.com> Remember the brouhaha over Napster? Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jorge Paez Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 2:25 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Chris: Your logic is flawless. Taking it from a business point, it makes complete sense though. Here's the thing: those groups sometimes make very dumb decisions with a closed mind. For example: can you imagine they tried to attack the sale of second hand books? Like, say you have a book and sold it to someone who really wants it, well, they tried to classify that as a violation of copyright! law. So yeah, those groups aren't always logical about their decisions. Jorge On May 2, 2011, at 3:55 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > That's their argument, but it makes no sense to me. There are about 3.1 million blind people in the country. So the authors really would be getting * more * money from * more * customers wanting to buy and read their books, but can't because the E-books are inaccessible and only 5 percent of books are available in Braille. I don't get it! If they're worried about money from sold books so much, then they should be happy that in enableing text-to-speech on E-book readers like the Kindle, there would be more books sold. Therefore, by enableing TTS on the Kindle, the revenue from sold books coming into the authors would be * raised, * not lowered! See the iPad, hint hint. > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Is it true they're not allowing it because "its a market?" > > In other words, > they wanna record text to speech engines reading books to sell as part of mainstream sales later on and so they're not allowing it in current devices. > > > On May 1, 2011, at 9:25 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > > Partly. But we're nowhere near there yet and some Kindle books still > don't allow speech access. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 4:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Glad to have the coalition website; and did the kindle become accessible? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tina Hansen > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 7:04 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Maybe I can explain. The Reading Rights Coalition is not officially > affiliated with the NFB, but it's a consortium of organizations who > have voiced their concerns about access to the Kindle and other > mainstream electronic books. The coalition is made up of blindness > organizations as well as organizations with other disabilities that > make reading print difficult. The web site is > > www.readingrights.org > > Thanks. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma > hb%40earthl > ink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjo > rgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From wujing19861209 at hotmail.com Tue May 3 02:50:29 2011 From: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Jing_Crystal_Wu_=E5=90=B4=E6=99=B6?=) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 04:50:29 +0200 Subject: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China References: <281C8306452748D89E95636DC277B1C4@tinad85eb5cc31> Message-ID: The French couple and some of the volunteers are Christians, but religion is not required. ----- Original Message ----- From: "RJ Sandefur" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 4:26 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China > Is this a religious organization? RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 10:13 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China > > >> Dear Beth, >> >> I am teaching English at the center, and also doing project consultant >> work. So far, we have one mobility instructor from California, one >> multiple-disability educator from France, one blind Braille teacher, one >> music teacher, and five Chinese teachers. Of course, the orphanage have >> many care-givers, administraters, fund raisers, public relation manager >> and staff members. Bethel has foster care, education and self-care >> training for kids. Bethel even has its own farm field, so the kids can >> help to feed dogs, goats, chickens, ducks. Right now, I am trying to push >> to open up a job training course; however, I can't stay in Beijing for >> too long. If any of you is interested to do job training, counciling, >> independence training, I am sure you will be very helpful in Bethel. >> >> I must encourage kids to learn, to live and to travel independently. >> It'll be wonderful if we can something together. My skype is >> jing.wu.crystal >> MSN: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com >> >> Sincerely, >> Crystal >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Beth" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:57 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China >> >> >>> Crystal, >>> What can the folks at the CCB in Denver, Colorado do for the >>> orphanage? What can any ordinary people do to help the kids? I am >>> interested in helping blind people overseas too, but not China >>> necessarily. But it's fascinating. Do you have Skype? Do write me >>> off list at >>> thebluesisloose at gmail.com >>> >>> Thank you, >>> Beth Taurasi >>> >>> On 5/2/11, Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 wrote: >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> I am currently working in an orphanage for the blind in Beijing. Bethel >>>> Home >>>> has 45 blind children, and it's a NGO orphanage run by a french couple. >>>> Just >>>> wonder if any students will be interested to do internship or volunteer >>>> work >>>> in Beijing. You may visit >>>> www.bethelchina.org >>>> >>>> Most of the kids speak English and Chinese. Many of the volunteers are >>>> from >>>> Europe and North America. Too bad I have to return to school in >>>> Stockholm >>>> this summer. Hope any of you can support and help the kids in any way >>>> you >>>> can. Thanks. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> Crystal >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Tina Hansen" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Cc: "Correspondence Committee Mailing List" >>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:51 AM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Food for Thought: Presenting Our Message as Theater >>>> >>>> >>>>> Not long ago, I learned that the Braille Institute in Los Angeles, >>>>> California, produced a series of recordings called Sound Solutions. >>>>> They >>>>> present tools and techniques for coping with blindness and vision loss >>>>> in >>>>> a number of dramatic formats. I thought: it might be cool if we could >>>>> do >>>>> that. We do have a play at our National convention, but that's about >>>>> it. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure if I agree with everything they present, but I still >>>>> think we >>>>> >>>>> can learn from it. To get an idea of what they do, you can go to >>>>> >>>>> http://www.airsla.org/soundsolutions.asp >>>>> >>>>> The episodes cover topics such as: home management, coping skills, and >>>>> many other topics, and with one exception, most of them are 30 minutes >>>>> or >>>>> less. >>>>> >>>>> I'm presenting this for what it's worth, since I know that we have >>>>> some >>>>> creative people out there, and I also know that if we can present our >>>>> message in a creative way, it might interest the younger generation. >>>>> Check >>>>> >>>>> it out. Thanks. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com > From k7uij at panix.com Tue May 3 02:55:33 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 19:55:33 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS In-Reply-To: <20110503022019.23715.62947@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> References: <20110503022019.23715.62947@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> Message-ID: <00d801cc093d$92886890$b79939b0$@panix.com> Agreed. But as it stands now, I think we ought to bite the bullet and admit that it's at least possible that at least for individuals who are totally deaf and totally blind, traveling is a case of Russian Roulette. I'm not saying they shouldn't travel; I merely opine that neither they nor we should kid ourselves. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 7:20 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS Mike, I don't think there's anything wrong or illogical in taking the position that, in the case of the blind, good training and listening usually do the trick. But as we all know, the deaf-blind don't have the ability to look or listen, so they will need a few more adaptations than we do. I don't think that acknowledging this fact is a problem. Of course, we would also have to take the position that the deaf-blind should get much better travel training than they currently get in order to make special devices more useful to them, and we'd have to make devices that are actually useful to the deaf-blind. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Arielle: > I admire the clear presentation of your position. And if an audible traffic > signal made one brief noise at the start of a WALK cycle and then shut up, I > wouldn't be so disenchanted with them. However, I am one of those > individuals who finds the majority of them distracting at a minimum. And I > never found T intersections and turn-arrows to be a significant barrier to > safe crossing; what *is* a barrier is cars that don't obey their *own* > signals and APS's wouldn't help with this. > Moreover, with respect to the deaf-blind, I think we of NFB and, for that > matter, every other organization of the blind, speak with forked tongue. > One the one hand, we often say that audible pedestrian signals are no > substitute for good training and listening. Yet we speak of having > vibrotactile signals for the deaf-blind who, by definition, cannot listen. > We can't have it both ways. I know the deaf-blind don't like to hear this > and we don't like to say it but methinks we need to adopt a consistent, > congruent position on travel of the deaf-blind without reference to > sentiment. > Let the flames begin. (big smile) > Mike > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Arielle Silverman > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 4:42 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS > Hi Ashley and all, > I don't know exactly what NFB's official position is at this point. I > personally am a big fan of audible traffic signals, for a few reasons. > First, as you pointed out, there are several kinds of intersections where > the auditory cue to cross is rather subtle-such as T-intersections, those > where the parallel street is generally quiet or those with leading turn > arrows, where you have to listen for the turning traffic to stop before > crossing. I know it is possible to reliably cross these kinds of > intersections using traffic cues alone, but the potential for mistakes (both > missing the cue to cross and inadvertently crossing at the wrong time) is > substantial especially for those who have had insufficient training. Second, > as far as I know, there is no reliable way to tell when your walk signal is > about to end. So if you come up to an intersection and the light is in your > favor, there's no way to tell whether you will have enough time to cross > before the light changes. The only really safe way to handle this is to wait > until the light turns red and then green again, which can be inconvenient. > Trust me, I've gambled on these and tried to cross without enough time-the > result is scary not to mention embarrassing. Finally, though I know this > logic is not always popular, I do think that if the sighted are given a > clear cue to cross the street and it is not an undue hardship to make that > signal accessible to the blind, it should be done. I can't imagine an > intersection where sighted pedestrians are expected to watch the traffic > without any kind of walk signal or light indicating when it was safe to > cross. > That being said, I don't think this necessarily has to be our biggest > priority at this time. I also recognize that some blind travelers find > audible signals bothersome and I would support some way of making the sound > optional or implementing a tactile (i.e. vibrating) signal, which would also > benefit the deaf-blind. > Arielle > On 5/2/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> I thought it wasn't supposed to be enforced till like 2012? >> On May 2, 2011, at 7:14 PM, wrote: >>> George, >>> Actually the ACB seems as mad as ever; yes they won in the court; but >>> the government has not produced accessible currency yet. >>> Some do not feel the decision will be enforced. >>> Ashley >>> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez >>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:57 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS >>> I believe the national is officially against expanding the use of APS. >>> As far as accessible currency, didn't the ACB already close that case >>> in court? >>> ACB V. US trasury 2009 or something like that? >>> On May 2, 2011, at 6:36 PM, wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they >>>> are taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency >>>> topics and really trashing the NFB and they don't know the real >>>> positions and facts. >>>> They think NFB opposes both. >>>> I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions? >>>> Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. >>>> What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do >>>> you think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? >>>> Personally, I'd like the APS at intersections where you have to >>>> press the walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk >>>> signal to know when our time starts; you have to press the button in >>>> order to tell the computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk >>>> phase to cross the street. I think these are called actuated >>>> signals. These streets favor drivers, not pedestrians; the busier >>>> streets get more traffic time. That change of the signal is activated > by a computer. >>>> At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, >>>> without a button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues >>>> to hear to cross. >>>> I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn >>>> lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some >>>> signals even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk > interval. >>>> So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient >>>> traffic cues to cross the street. I've tried to learn how to cross >>>> T streets, and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help >>>> there too. No parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. >>>> Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on >>>> APS, so I'm not sure what it is now. I certainly don't want them >>>> everywhere, but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see > their use. >>>> Ashley >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertech >>>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>> 0earthlink.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechj >>> orgepaez%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president >> %40gmail.com > -- > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > Phone: 602-502-2255 > Email: > nabs.president at gmail.com > Website: > www.nabslink.org > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo bile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From maurice.mines at gmail.com Tue May 3 02:57:34 2011 From: maurice.mines at gmail.com (Maurice Mines) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 20:57:34 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Thank You for your Support! In-Reply-To: <00bc01cc0937$50f73010$f2e59030$@panix.com> References: <1105336641650.1101553811939.23196.6.37095025@scheduler> <00bc01cc0937$50f73010$f2e59030$@panix.com> Message-ID: <1A7AC518-3402-43D5-A3D3-8BD7D0AFA3C0@gmail.com> I too, and must rise and ask for the same thing. I ate no debt this organization said that based on member survey material from many of the blind said they wanted blind taken out of the name. Recording for the blind and dyslexic worked fine for me. This do any key doesn't work fine for me on any level. I will tell you that from what I understand there are even rumblings within my own local chapter here in Colorado both wishing to cancel their subscriptions to save energy. My fellow Colorado Association of blind students board member, I hope you are having a meaningful discussion with this entity because I think it's a shame. As I said to Mr. Freeman earlier in a private e-mail. It's like the NAACP suddenly saying that they didn't wish to ponder a beverage of the many brave black citizens who withstood the worst of the civil rights era. In other words change the name back and I think all of us would feel a lot better. To quote our past leaders in the national Federation of the blind, it very much is respectable to be blind. Please note the opinions expressed are mine, they do not reflect the opinions of the board of the Colorado Association of blind students. Nor the opinions of the national Federation of the blind of Colorado. Also please note that I mean using dictation software, some words, phrases, and/or spellings might not be what they are supposed to be. Thank you very much for reading this. On May 2, 2011, at 8:10 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > I think we should issue an ultimatum: change your name back and we will > support. (evil grin) > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Gabriel Cazares > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 4:37 PM > To: tabs_students; nabs-l > Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Thank You for your Support! > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Learning Ally, formerly RFB&D" > Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 10:07:38 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Thank You for your Support! > To: gcazares10 at gmail.com > > Having trouble viewing this email? > Click here to view this email as a webpage. > http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=dpqs87bab&v=001JbA8pPO1z- > MhGsslJGOwOQrhHUKPKfZROcNJuT2qugDy9zjJwS0N0ZTPaco5TIEgbV2suMeaJiVt4A8bH6CsjO > n9AvQvdAzGe3dA5eNmAEwKzLcGYmH-zcpsnhbfud9vn4Ql8NC_UmQL2RZ100rfGXnfNsibLTfrzQ > lwfGCV1zzLbt_MZsJCCFX7--7PN9i5Y6j-IMJcJhRE_D66I3_dKoh3hHY5wqrdl6L3U8s_vM4lS4 > MVOIt3esAnMtPlZuSbjQYUxlW5RvJt9A2p5_bdN2hDYlBOd6IEXwJPpqM8JRCBbez-1Bpafa600u > 3Vkz5gWU9kNKGLcqx-mXKTMk3aUcVpFIGy-C7GU2esRrcVe3zwo_pdOzBsUn0_x_CabOpbXUt2BI > M2CUkbHw5D-4X-xw%3D%3D > You're receiving this email because of your relationship with Learning Ally. > Please confirm your continued interest in receiving email from us. > http://visitor.r20.constantcontact.com/c.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&t=1105336641650.2 > 3196.123941028.2&m=1101553811939&wl=F > You only have to do this once. You may unsubscribe > http://visitor.constantcontact.com/do?p=un&m=001K33QEjKvDIIHs3UwsZPI7A%3D%3D > &se=001IyrhS4OSBPQ%3D&t=0018WK4DlChgVvCBYZ1jrRsbw%3D%3D&lang=001FCSs65SMrsI% > 3D&reason=001y5KaVlBn7_Y%3D&llr=dpqs87bab > if you no longer wish to receive our emails. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > Stay Engaged, Spread the Word > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > May 2, 2011 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > Thank You and an Update on Federal DOE Funding for Accessible Educational > Materials > > First, Thank you! Your rapid and clear call for continued support for > accessible educational materials was heard by Members of Congress and had a > positive impact on the FY 2011 appropriation to the Department of Education. > The compelling testimonials many of you have shared with us added a depth > and poignancy to the discussion that numbers alone could not convey. Your > personal stories carried weight in Washington. > Second, despite many key Members supporting the program, there was no > specific funding appropriated for Learning Ally. This unfortunate loss of > congressionally dedicated funding means that our campaign is far from over. > Our efforts need to shift to the Department of Education and the decisions > to be made by Secretary Duncan. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > Fiscal Year 2011's Fight Shifts > > Under the budget plan passed by Congress, Secretary Duncan has the > discretion to hold a competition for the development, production and > distribution of educational materials in accessible formats to students with > visual impairments and other print disabilities. > Consequently, we at Learning Ally are working closely with our supporters on > Capitol Hill to encourage the Secretary to prepare and publish a competition > for a national program for accessible textbooks. This priority was part of > President Obama's 2011 budget plan, and we are striving to preserve this > going forward. We are working to encourage the Secretary to act quickly so > there will be confidence in this program's future. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > Next Year's Debate is Close at Hand > > While we continue to work on the FY 2011 program, we need to also turn our > attention to the now emerging FY 2012 (October 1, 2011-September 30, 2012) > budget and appropriations work. As in FY 2011, there will be no earmarks or > dedicated funding for Learning Ally or hundreds of other valuable national > programs. > Our goal will be to protect the crucial ongoing funding that the Department > of Education provides for accessible educational materials in the FY 2012 > budget plan, and to ensure that the hundreds of thousands of students > across the United States who depend on accessible materials for their > education can continue to receive these tools. This debate will be ongoing > throughout this spring, summer and well into autumn. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > Stay Engaged, Spread the Word > > We expect your voice will play a crucial role in the debate. Members of > Congress need to be reminded regularly of the real human impact that this > program has. As we approach key milestones, your engagement will be needed > to drive this point. > We need you to be an evangelist; spreading the word to your family, friends > and colleagues about this program and encouraging them to sign the petition > at the link below and enlist in this endeavor.We need as many advocates to > sign as possible, so please ask everyone you know to join us and sign the > petition. > > > http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/rfbd/ > [http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&et=1105336641650&s=23196&e=001U2rP5 > AzTh0XdpdaaEP0Vf0vfMvWXsp3T6txf1N8nwPs4lAr8YfoaaJDpVfFxjdMVRxeO6XB6_nLFU3o87 > IpEAHG_xfXxUhwW4f7Osy9KFy6OF4R-wBW1ho6QNMquMRw6FsiIxHjk2Cs=] > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > Visit the Policy Advocates Center > As we keep the pressure up on the Department of Education with our allies in > Congress, we will update our Policy Advocates Center > [http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&et=1105336641650&s=23196&e=001U2rP5 > AzTh0W6E_nXwJgKmg8wVvwM0cng1er2weMwiFuKWGBzJGyrJYC53GSgAiuKlHxU0ZbTB0fXwaP6c > FsOVMnnocCkJs1XtAnDs6jOk7_hLXHPpLCoq6QWedyjbpjpNTL3eelqeQbSvT5i84cMcX7cyB_ya > e1xTzlP8duz130jarRe37l1Cg==] > with developments as they occur. 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Cazares, > 2nd Vice President > Texas Association of Blind Students - TABS (A Division of the National > Federation of the Blind of Texas) www.nfb-texas.org/tabs.html > Phone: 713-581-0619 > "Of course, loyalty to one's friends is an important principle. But so is > writing what you believe--otherwise, why bother to write at all?"-Arianna > Huffington > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/maurice.mines%40gmail.com From k7uij at panix.com Tue May 3 03:19:02 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 20:19:02 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. In-Reply-To: <4dbf0c43.42abe60a.5d2a.6b9b@mx.google.com> References: <4dbf0c43.42abe60a.5d2a.6b9b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <00de01cc0940$da7a0b10$8f6e2130$@panix.com> Chris: I agree with you. I did not, in fact, say that diversity could be negative although I dare say that quite a number of high school kids trying to "fit in" might think so. In fact, to my way of thinking, physical diversity is neutral. Intellectual diversity is certainly an advantage. As for negative diversity -- let's see -- how about the presence of diseases such as sickle-cell anemia? After all, the genes that code for this disease also confer some immunity to malaria. Yet few would disagree with those who seek to cure or eliminate this disease. Now I'm not saying blindness is a disease. It is a physical condition resulting from the lack of one sense -- vision. That's far from being a disease in my book. But I don't believe blindness confers any advantages, either. Perhaps a sentence or two about my view of life might help you to understand where I'm coming from -- it's a view that Jedi does not subscribe to. Long live diversity, eh? Anyway, I am agnostic. Therefore, I do not believe there is any meaning in life apart from the meaning we give it by our own actions. Nor do I believe there is an ultimate purpose to existence except insofar as we overlay it with a gloss of meaning of our own making. Therefore, questions such as "why am I here? Why was I blind? What purpose does my blindness serve in the larger scheme of things?" have no answers and, in fact, make no sense to even ask. It's sort of like in quantum mechanics where it makes no sense to ask whether an electron is a wave or a particle. Anyway, with that world view in mind and bearing in mind that I subscribe to the NFB notion that with training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical inconvenience and that we, the blind, are simply normal people who cannot see, I do not see that having blind people around confers some special blessing on society. Blindness is just that -- the lack of sight. I do not believe that it renders us privy to special insights, miraculous talents or capacities or special cultural predilections. I am therefore not committed to its preservation. Neither, on the other hand, am I committed to its eradication. If it happens, so be it. If it does not, so be it. I'm not going to worry overly-much about it since it won't happen in my lifetime and there will be innumerable circumstances I cannot foresee so cannot make a binding judgment upon. Bottom line: I don't see how we can say that blindness is just the lack of eyesight while at the same time believing it confers special virtues or valuable traits for society. I truly do not believe blindness to be all that much of a muchness. Sometimes it's a pain; sometimes it's just there. In my experience, it's never the catalyst for wisdom or enlightenment. Now that I've written this to death, on to the next issue! (smile) Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 12:55 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. Being Devil's advocate, what negativity does diversity have? Diversity, by definition, isn't good nor bad, but just different. So, what is the negative impact of diversity on... who, society? Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" References: <281C8306452748D89E95636DC277B1C4@tinad85eb5cc31> Message-ID: Thanks, Crystal. I"ll add you and we can talk more, I have some ideas to share with you about my own projects, but I do care about the blind in China. Maybe I could help you find some people? Sincerely, Beth Taurasi On 5/2/11, Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 wrote: > The French couple and some of the volunteers are Christians, but religion is > not required. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "RJ Sandefur" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 4:26 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China > > >> Is this a religious organization? RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 10:13 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China >> >> >>> Dear Beth, >>> >>> I am teaching English at the center, and also doing project consultant >>> work. So far, we have one mobility instructor from California, one >>> multiple-disability educator from France, one blind Braille teacher, one >>> music teacher, and five Chinese teachers. Of course, the orphanage have >>> many care-givers, administraters, fund raisers, public relation manager >>> and staff members. Bethel has foster care, education and self-care >>> training for kids. Bethel even has its own farm field, so the kids can >>> help to feed dogs, goats, chickens, ducks. Right now, I am trying to push >>> >>> to open up a job training course; however, I can't stay in Beijing for >>> too long. If any of you is interested to do job training, counciling, >>> independence training, I am sure you will be very helpful in Bethel. >>> >>> I must encourage kids to learn, to live and to travel independently. >>> It'll be wonderful if we can something together. My skype is >>> jing.wu.crystal >>> MSN: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Crystal >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Beth" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:57 AM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China >>> >>> >>>> Crystal, >>>> What can the folks at the CCB in Denver, Colorado do for the >>>> orphanage? What can any ordinary people do to help the kids? I am >>>> interested in helping blind people overseas too, but not China >>>> necessarily. But it's fascinating. Do you have Skype? Do write me >>>> off list at >>>> thebluesisloose at gmail.com >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> Beth Taurasi >>>> >>>> On 5/2/11, Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 wrote: >>>>> Dear all, >>>>> >>>>> I am currently working in an orphanage for the blind in Beijing. Bethel >>>>> >>>>> Home >>>>> has 45 blind children, and it's a NGO orphanage run by a french couple. >>>>> >>>>> Just >>>>> wonder if any students will be interested to do internship or volunteer >>>>> >>>>> work >>>>> in Beijing. You may visit >>>>> www.bethelchina.org >>>>> >>>>> Most of the kids speak English and Chinese. Many of the volunteers are >>>>> from >>>>> Europe and North America. Too bad I have to return to school in >>>>> Stockholm >>>>> this summer. Hope any of you can support and help the kids in any way >>>>> you >>>>> can. Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> Crystal >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Tina Hansen" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Cc: "Correspondence Committee Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:51 AM >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Food for Thought: Presenting Our Message as Theater >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Not long ago, I learned that the Braille Institute in Los Angeles, >>>>>> California, produced a series of recordings called Sound Solutions. >>>>>> They >>>>>> present tools and techniques for coping with blindness and vision loss >>>>>> >>>>>> in >>>>>> a number of dramatic formats. I thought: it might be cool if we could >>>>>> do >>>>>> that. We do have a play at our National convention, but that's about >>>>>> it. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure if I agree with everything they present, but I still >>>>>> think we >>>>>> >>>>>> can learn from it. To get an idea of what they do, you can go to >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.airsla.org/soundsolutions.asp >>>>>> >>>>>> The episodes cover topics such as: home management, coping skills, and >>>>>> many other topics, and with one exception, most of them are 30 minutes >>>>>> >>>>>> or >>>>>> less. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm presenting this for what it's worth, since I know that we have >>>>>> some >>>>>> creative people out there, and I also know that if we can present our >>>>>> message in a creative way, it might interest the younger generation. >>>>>> Check >>>>>> >>>>>> it out. Thanks. >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From humbertoa5369 at netzero.net Tue May 3 03:43:01 2011 From: humbertoa5369 at netzero.net (humberto) Date: Mon, 02 May 2011 20:43:01 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Message-ID: Sorry, but your message came out blank: Subject: Re: [Nabs-l] New Technology And blindness, sent on Sonday may 1, 2011 at 9:33 AM > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Chris Nusbaum To: National Association of Blind Students mailing listDate sent: Sun, 01 May 2011 09:33:12 -0400 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa 5369%40netzero.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue May 3 04:17:50 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 22:17:50 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. In-Reply-To: <00de01cc0940$da7a0b10$8f6e2130$@panix.com> References: <4dbf0c43.42abe60a.5d2a.6b9b@mx.google.com> <00de01cc0940$da7a0b10$8f6e2130$@panix.com> Message-ID: Mike, Very, very well said. Except for the bit about no ultimate meaning except for what we make of life (which, really, is kind of beyond the scope of this meaningless conversation), I totally agree with you. Blindness is sometimes a pain in the ass, sometimes it really makes no difference to life one way or another. I guess the only benefit blindness has ever given me is the opportunity to meet some friends who I would otherwise never have known. Other than that, if I'm weighing pros and cons in my own life, blindness isn't really much of a good thing or a bad thing...it's just kind of there. It's certainly not a good thing, I don't think-but it's not really that bad either. At any rate, there's plenty more important things to worry about...like the NBA playoffs! :) Go Grizleys! (I kind of adopted them as my team after they upset the spurs-can you say bandwagon fan?) Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/2/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > Chris: > > I agree with you. I did not, in fact, say that diversity could be negative > although I dare say that quite a number of high school kids trying to "fit > in" might think so. In fact, to my way of thinking, physical diversity is > neutral. Intellectual diversity is certainly an advantage. As for negative > diversity -- let's see -- how about the presence of diseases such as > sickle-cell anemia? After all, the genes that code for this disease also > confer some immunity to malaria. Yet few would disagree with those who seek > to cure or eliminate this disease. > > Now I'm not saying blindness is a disease. It is a physical condition > resulting from the lack of one sense -- vision. That's far from being a > disease in my book. But I don't believe blindness confers any advantages, > either. > > Perhaps a sentence or two about my view of life might help you to understand > where I'm coming from -- it's a view that Jedi does not subscribe to. Long > live diversity, eh? Anyway, I am agnostic. Therefore, I do not believe > there is any meaning in life apart from the meaning we give it by our own > actions. Nor do I believe there is an ultimate purpose to existence except > insofar as we overlay it with a gloss of meaning of our own making. > Therefore, questions such as "why am I here? Why was I blind? What purpose > does my blindness serve in the larger scheme of things?" have no answers > and, in fact, make no sense to even ask. It's sort of like in quantum > mechanics where it makes no sense to ask whether an electron is a wave or a > particle. > > Anyway, with that world view in mind and bearing in mind that I subscribe to > the NFB notion that with training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced > to the level of a physical inconvenience and that we, the blind, are simply > normal people who cannot see, I do not see that having blind people around > confers some special blessing on society. Blindness is just that -- the > lack of sight. I do not believe that it renders us privy to special > insights, miraculous talents or capacities or special cultural > predilections. I am therefore not committed to its preservation. Neither, > on the other hand, am I committed to its eradication. If it happens, so be > it. If it does not, so be it. I'm not going to worry overly-much about it > since it won't happen in my lifetime and there will be innumerable > circumstances I cannot foresee so cannot make a binding judgment upon. > > Bottom line: I don't see how we can say that blindness is just the lack of > eyesight while at the same time believing it confers special virtues or > valuable traits for society. I truly do not believe blindness to be all > that much of a muchness. Sometimes it's a pain; sometimes it's just there. > In my experience, it's never the catalyst for wisdom or enlightenment. > > Now that I've written this to death, on to the next issue! (smile) > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 12:55 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. > > Being Devil's advocate, what negativity does diversity have? > Diversity, by definition, isn't good nor bad, but just different. > So, what is the negative impact of diversity on... who, society? > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Sun, 1 May 2011 21:25:10 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. > > That presumes that diversity always equals benefit. You and I are going to > have to differ on this one. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 6:45 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. > > I say that disability is a form of diversity, so I wouldn't want to erase > it. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: > Hello all, > > This is an interesting discussion, so I thought I'd pop in for a minute. > > This question goes, at the root of it, to how you view disability. If you > view it as an aspect that creates diversity, then erasing it would be like > erasing races or different languages. If you view disability as a disease, > then logically the first response would be to want to cure it. > > What do you guys think? > > Briley > On Apr 27, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Jorge Paez wrote: > > Arielle: > I think blindness does play a roll--in that it is just one of many things > that make up an individual, and in a world where genetics would be > preprogramed, it just be too perfect. > It'd just bee too flawless--too artificial. > I'm sure some people would want it--but a world in which blindness and > other disabilities are completely eradicated would just be too artificial, > almost like we literally managed to create our own world in a way. > > Worse, it would make it a whole lot worse for any blind who were born > cause then everyone would consider them a scientific failure so to speak. > Of course, > I'm hypothetically talking about a very cold world in which science would > create people which I hope would never happen but its a good talking point > anyway. > > Jorge > > > On Apr 27, 2011, at 12:08 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi all, > > We recently had a discussion about how we would react if some of our blind > friends could become sighted, and we asked whether it would be reasonable > for a sighted person to want to go blind. This made me think of an > interesting, although a bit painful, question: > Would the world be better off, worse off, or about the same if blindness > were completely eradicated, through genetic engineering and/or mandatory > treatment of all causes of blindness? > The question may sound silly, but for many vision researchers, eradication > of blindness is a real goal. But does the presence of blind people in our > society have any benefit to the society or the world as a whole? > > Certainly there are costs of having a small group of people in society who > read and travel using different techniques than the rest. These > specialized techniques have to be taught, technology has to be adapted to > their use and negative public attitudes prevent this minority of people who > do things differently from having full access to societal goods and > opportunities. So would it be cheaper and less resource-demanding if > everybody could use the same visual techniques to accomplish life tasks? > On the other hand, you could perhaps argue that having people who use > different senses to do things in society is advantageous. > Technology is forced to innovate to become usable by those who don't have > vision as well as those who do. And conceivably, if a darkness plague > struck the planet, it would be better for the species if some of its > members could fully function without light. > > What do you think? Should we as a society make an effort to get rid of > blindness? Or does blindness serve any kind of social function? > There obviously isn't a right answer here, but it's something that, for > better or for worse, could become relevant to us someday. > > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > ech > jorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 > 0gma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind > jedi% > 40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. > Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From k7uij at panix.com Tue May 3 04:32:04 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 21:32:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. In-Reply-To: <35A8C8C2D1704C40964C5A5C52B6D7D9@stanford.edu> References: <20110502014444.28861.22086@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <001501cc0880$ed3c9b70$c7b5d250$@panix.com> <35A8C8C2D1704C40964C5A5C52B6D7D9@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <00f801cc094b$0e94ed20$2bbec760$@panix.com> Of course. In any event, we agree on what should be done *now.* Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 9:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. I like and greatly appreciate your willingness to agree to disagree. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 9:25 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. > That presumes that diversity always equals benefit. You and I are going > to > have to differ on this one. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Jedi > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 6:45 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. > > I say that disability is a form of diversity, so I wouldn't want to erase > it. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> Hello all, > >> This is an interesting discussion, so I thought I'd pop in for a minute. > >> This question goes, at the root of it, to how you view disability. If >> you view it as an aspect that creates diversity, then erasing it would >> be like erasing races or different languages. If you view disability >> as a disease, then logically the first response would be to want to cure > it. > >> What do you guys think? > >> Briley >> On Apr 27, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >>> Arielle: >>> I think blindness does play a roll--in that it is just one of many >>> things that make up an individual, and in a world where genetics >>> would be preprogramed, it just be too perfect. >>> It'd just bee too flawless--too artificial. >>> I'm sure some people would want it--but a world in which blindness >>> and other disabilities are completely eradicated would just be too >>> artificial, almost like we literally managed to create our own world in >>> a > way. > >>> Worse, it would make it a whole lot worse for any blind who were born >>> cause then everyone would consider them a scientific failure so to >>> speak. >>> Of course, >>> I'm hypothetically talking about a very cold world in which science >>> would create people which I hope would never happen but its a good >>> talking point anyway. > >>> Jorge > > >>> On Apr 27, 2011, at 12:08 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >>>> Hi all, > >>>> We recently had a discussion about how we would react if some of our >>>> blind friends could become sighted, and we asked whether it would be >>>> reasonable for a sighted person to want to go blind. This made me >>>> think of an interesting, although a bit painful, question: >>>> Would the world be better off, worse off, or about the same if >>>> blindness were completely eradicated, through genetic engineering >>>> and/or mandatory treatment of all causes of blindness? >>>> The question may sound silly, but for many vision researchers, >>>> eradication of blindness is a real goal. But does the presence of >>>> blind people in our society have any benefit to the society or the >>>> world as a whole? > >>>> Certainly there are costs of having a small group of people in >>>> society who read and travel using different techniques than the >>>> rest. These specialized techniques have to be taught, technology has >>>> to be adapted to their use and negative public attitudes prevent >>>> this minority of people who do things differently from having full >>>> access to societal goods and opportunities. So would it be cheaper >>>> and less resource-demanding if everybody could use the same visual >>>> techniques to accomplish life tasks? >>>> On the other hand, you could perhaps argue that having people who >>>> use different senses to do things in society is advantageous. >>>> Technology is forced to innovate to become usable by those who don't >>>> have vision as well as those who do. And conceivably, if a darkness >>>> plague struck the planet, it would be better for the species if some >>>> of its members could fully function without light. > >>>> What do you think? Should we as a society make an effort to get rid >>>> of blindness? Or does blindness serve any kind of social function? >>>> There obviously isn't a right answer here, but it's something that, >>>> for better or for worse, could become relevant to us someday. > >>>> Arielle > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertech >>>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%40gma >>> il.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi% >> 40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecab le.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue May 3 04:34:49 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 22:34:49 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To all, Here's my take...and, because I enjoy being an argumentative pain in the neck, I'm going to enjoy this. :) But before I start, I want to make it perfectly clear that I'm absolutely for the Technology Bill of Rights, making new technology accessible ought to be a legal right, and we are at a disadvantage when technology, like the touch screens Ashley mentioned are being put in store checkout lines, is used. But we need to remember we are a minority and the majority of the population shouldn't bend over backwards to accomodate us. While having all new technology come to us perfectly accessible is a laudable goal, it's probably never going to totally be realized. Should we have the right? Absolutely. Will we ever have it totally? Probably not...even with the Technology bill of rights, this dream of Universal Design will probably never be totally realized. That doesn't mean we don't work towards it-it just means we need to learn how to live in a world where there are inconveniences we have to deal with. We may have to stand in lines instead of using the independent self checkout-deal with it. We may need to get a reader if our textbooks aren't accessible-too bad. We may need to get assistance using keosks in the airport-I'm terribly sorry, that's life. e maybe might even have to go with a trusted family member or friend when using an ATM...what a terrible tragedy! I can't believe we're so mistreated, abused, ignored, neglected, forgotten, and treated like crap by the rest of the evil sighted world that doesn't even give a damn about us! Life is aweful! This new technology isn't accessible-woe is me, we're dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed! Noone even cares about us! This is a terrible, terrible, no-good world we live in, because we need to get people to help us use touch screens...whatever are we going to do? Now of course that was an exhageration, and I certainly want technology to be accessible. But rather than spend so much time complaining about it, let's do our best to get around the inaccessibility and live our lives! I'm all for pushing to make this new technology independently usable...but it's probably never going to totally happen, deal with it. There will always be inconveniences and annoyences associated with being blind-get used to it. The world will never perfectly cater to our every whim, get over it. Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/2/11, humberto wrote: > Sorry, but your message came out blank: Subject: Re: [Nabs-l] New > Technology And blindness, sent on Sonday may 1, 2011 at 9:33 AM > >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: Chris Nusbaum >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing > list>Date sent: Sun, 01 May 2011 09:33:12 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa > 5369%40netzero.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From k7uij at panix.com Tue May 3 04:35:18 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 21:35:18 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. In-Reply-To: References: <4dbf0c43.42abe60a.5d2a.6b9b@mx.google.com> <00de01cc0940$da7a0b10$8f6e2130$@panix.com> Message-ID: <00f901cc094b$826695a0$8733c0e0$@panix.com> Hey Kirt: The Mavericks blitzed the Trailblazers so NBA is of no use to me anymore this year. (grin) Now if the Washington Capitals can knock off the Tampa Bay Lightning in the NHL so we can in the end have a Capitals Canuks Stanley Cup Final ... Now there's something to care about! :-) Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:18 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. Mike, Very, very well said. Except for the bit about no ultimate meaning except for what we make of life (which, really, is kind of beyond the scope of this meaningless conversation), I totally agree with you. Blindness is sometimes a pain in the ass, sometimes it really makes no difference to life one way or another. I guess the only benefit blindness has ever given me is the opportunity to meet some friends who I would otherwise never have known. Other than that, if I'm weighing pros and cons in my own life, blindness isn't really much of a good thing or a bad thing...it's just kind of there. It's certainly not a good thing, I don't think-but it's not really that bad either. At any rate, there's plenty more important things to worry about...like the NBA playoffs! :) Go Grizleys! (I kind of adopted them as my team after they upset the spurs-can you say bandwagon fan?) Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/2/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > Chris: > > I agree with you. I did not, in fact, say that diversity could be > negative although I dare say that quite a number of high school kids > trying to "fit in" might think so. In fact, to my way of thinking, > physical diversity is neutral. Intellectual diversity is certainly an > advantage. As for negative diversity -- let's see -- how about the > presence of diseases such as sickle-cell anemia? After all, the genes > that code for this disease also confer some immunity to malaria. Yet > few would disagree with those who seek to cure or eliminate this disease. > > Now I'm not saying blindness is a disease. It is a physical condition > resulting from the lack of one sense -- vision. That's far from being > a disease in my book. But I don't believe blindness confers any > advantages, either. > > Perhaps a sentence or two about my view of life might help you to > understand where I'm coming from -- it's a view that Jedi does not > subscribe to. Long live diversity, eh? Anyway, I am agnostic. > Therefore, I do not believe there is any meaning in life apart from > the meaning we give it by our own actions. Nor do I believe there is > an ultimate purpose to existence except insofar as we overlay it with a gloss of meaning of our own making. > Therefore, questions such as "why am I here? Why was I blind? What > purpose does my blindness serve in the larger scheme of things?" have > no answers and, in fact, make no sense to even ask. It's sort of like > in quantum mechanics where it makes no sense to ask whether an > electron is a wave or a particle. > > Anyway, with that world view in mind and bearing in mind that I > subscribe to the NFB notion that with training and opportunity, > blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical inconvenience and > that we, the blind, are simply normal people who cannot see, I do not > see that having blind people around confers some special blessing on > society. Blindness is just that -- the lack of sight. I do not > believe that it renders us privy to special insights, miraculous > talents or capacities or special cultural predilections. I am > therefore not committed to its preservation. Neither, on the other > hand, am I committed to its eradication. If it happens, so be it. If > it does not, so be it. I'm not going to worry overly-much about it > since it won't happen in my lifetime and there will be innumerable circumstances I cannot foresee so cannot make a binding judgment upon. > > Bottom line: I don't see how we can say that blindness is just the > lack of eyesight while at the same time believing it confers special > virtues or valuable traits for society. I truly do not believe > blindness to be all that much of a muchness. Sometimes it's a pain; sometimes it's just there. > In my experience, it's never the catalyst for wisdom or enlightenment. > > Now that I've written this to death, on to the next issue! (smile) > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 12:55 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. > > Being Devil's advocate, what negativity does diversity have? > Diversity, by definition, isn't good nor bad, but just different. > So, what is the negative impact of diversity on... who, society? > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Sun, 1 May 2011 21:25:10 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. > > That presumes that diversity always equals benefit. You and I are > going to have to differ on this one. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 6:45 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. > > I say that disability is a form of diversity, so I wouldn't want to > erase it. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: > Hello all, > > This is an interesting discussion, so I thought I'd pop in for a minute. > > This question goes, at the root of it, to how you view disability. > If you view it as an aspect that creates diversity, then erasing it > would be like erasing races or different languages. If you view > disability as a disease, then logically the first response would be to want to cure it. > > What do you guys think? > > Briley > On Apr 27, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Jorge Paez wrote: > > Arielle: > I think blindness does play a roll--in that it is just one of many > things that make up an individual, and in a world where genetics > would be preprogramed, it just be too perfect. > It'd just bee too flawless--too artificial. > I'm sure some people would want it--but a world in which blindness > and other disabilities are completely eradicated would just be too > artificial, almost like we literally managed to create our own world in a way. > > Worse, it would make it a whole lot worse for any blind who were born > cause then everyone would consider them a scientific failure so to speak. > Of course, > I'm hypothetically talking about a very cold world in which science > would create people which I hope would never happen but its a good > talking point anyway. > > Jorge > > > On Apr 27, 2011, at 12:08 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi all, > > We recently had a discussion about how we would react if some of our > blind friends could become sighted, and we asked whether it would be > reasonable for a sighted person to want to go blind. This made me > think of an interesting, although a bit painful, question: > Would the world be better off, worse off, or about the same if > blindness were completely eradicated, through genetic engineering > and/or mandatory treatment of all causes of blindness? > The question may sound silly, but for many vision researchers, > eradication of blindness is a real goal. But does the presence of > blind people in our society have any benefit to the society or the world as a whole? > > Certainly there are costs of having a small group of people in > society who read and travel using different techniques than the rest. > These specialized techniques have to be taught, technology has to be > adapted to their use and negative public attitudes prevent this > minority of people who do things differently from having full access > to societal goods and opportunities. So would it be cheaper and less > resource-demanding if everybody could use the same visual techniques to accomplish life tasks? > On the other hand, you could perhaps argue that having people who > use different senses to do things in society is advantageous. > Technology is forced to innovate to become usable by those who don't > have vision as well as those who do. And conceivably, if a darkness > plague struck the planet, it would be better for the species if some > of its members could fully function without light. > > What do you think? Should we as a society make an effort to get rid > of blindness? Or does blindness serve any kind of social function? > There obviously isn't a right answer here, but it's something that, > for better or for worse, could become relevant to us someday. > > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > ech > jorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 > 0gma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind > jedi% > 40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. > Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix. > com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude > %40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From humbertoa5369 at netzero.net Tue May 3 04:46:10 2011 From: humbertoa5369 at netzero.net (humberto) Date: Mon, 02 May 2011 21:46:10 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. Message-ID: Let's change the subject line now, shall we? * smile * > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 21:35:18 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >Hey Kirt: >The Mavericks blitzed the Trailblazers so NBA is of no use to me anymore >this year. (grin) >Now if the Washington Capitals can knock off the Tampa Bay Lightning in the >NHL so we can in the end have a Capitals Canuks Stanley Cup Final .. Now >there's something to care about! :-) >Mike >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >Of Kirt Manwaring >Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:18 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >Mike, > Very, very well said. Except for the bit about no ultimate meaning except >for what we make of life (which, really, is kind of beyond the scope of this >meaningless conversation), I totally agree with you. >Blindness is sometimes a pain in the ass, sometimes it really makes no >difference to life one way or another. I guess the only benefit blindness >has ever given me is the opportunity to meet some friends who I would >otherwise never have known. Other than that, if I'm weighing pros and cons >in my own life, blindness isn't really much of a good thing or a bad >thing...it's just kind of there. It's certainly not a good thing, I don't >think-but it's not really that bad either. >At any rate, there's plenty more important things to worry about...like the >NBA playoffs! :) Go Grizleys! (I kind of adopted them as my team after >they upset the spurs-can you say bandwagon fan?) > Warmest regards, >Kirt >On 5/2/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> Chris: >> I agree with you. I did not, in fact, say that diversity could be >> negative although I dare say that quite a number of high school kids >> trying to "fit in" might think so. In fact, to my way of thinking, >> physical diversity is neutral. Intellectual diversity is certainly an >> advantage. As for negative diversity -- let's see -- how about the >> presence of diseases such as sickle-cell anemia? After all, the genes >> that code for this disease also confer some immunity to malaria. Yet >> few would disagree with those who seek to cure or eliminate this disease. >> Now I'm not saying blindness is a disease. It is a physical condition >> resulting from the lack of one sense -- vision. That's far from being >> a disease in my book. But I don't believe blindness confers any >> advantages, either. >> Perhaps a sentence or two about my view of life might help you to >> understand where I'm coming from -- it's a view that Jedi does not >> subscribe to. Long live diversity, eh? Anyway, I am agnostic. >> Therefore, I do not believe there is any meaning in life apart from >> the meaning we give it by our own actions. Nor do I believe there is >> an ultimate purpose to existence except insofar as we overlay it with a >gloss of meaning of our own making. >> Therefore, questions such as "why am I here? Why was I blind? What >> purpose does my blindness serve in the larger scheme of things?" have >> no answers and, in fact, make no sense to even ask. It's sort of like >> in quantum mechanics where it makes no sense to ask whether an >> electron is a wave or a particle. >> Anyway, with that world view in mind and bearing in mind that I >> subscribe to the NFB notion that with training and opportunity, >> blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical inconvenience and >> that we, the blind, are simply normal people who cannot see, I do not >> see that having blind people around confers some special blessing on >> society. Blindness is just that -- the lack of sight. I do not >> believe that it renders us privy to special insights, miraculous >> talents or capacities or special cultural predilections. I am >> therefore not committed to its preservation. Neither, on the other >> hand, am I committed to its eradication. If it happens, so be it. If >> it does not, so be it. I'm not going to worry overly-much about it >> since it won't happen in my lifetime and there will be innumerable >circumstances I cannot foresee so cannot make a binding judgment upon. >> Bottom line: I don't see how we can say that blindness is just the >> lack of eyesight while at the same time believing it confers special >> virtues or valuable traits for society. I truly do not believe >> blindness to be all that much of a muchness. Sometimes it's a pain; >sometimes it's just there. >> In my experience, it's never the catalyst for wisdom or enlightenment. >> Now that I've written this to death, on to the next issue! (smile) >> Mike >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum >> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 12:55 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >> Being Devil's advocate, what negativity does diversity have? >> Diversity, by definition, isn't good nor bad, but just different. >> So, what is the negative impact of diversity on... who, society? >> Chris Nusbaum >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Freeman" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Date sent: Sun, 1 May 2011 21:25:10 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >> That presumes that diversity always equals benefit. You and I are >> going to have to differ on this one. >> Mike >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi >> Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 6:45 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >> I say that disability is a form of diversity, so I wouldn't want to >> erase it. >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> Original message: >> Hello all, >> This is an interesting discussion, so I thought I'd pop in for a minute. >> This question goes, at the root of it, to how you view disability. >> If you view it as an aspect that creates diversity, then erasing it >> would be like erasing races or different languages. If you view >> disability as a disease, then logically the first response would be to >want to cure it. >> What do you guys think? >> Briley >> On Apr 27, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Jorge Paez wrote: >> Arielle: >> I think blindness does play a roll--in that it is just one of many >> things that make up an individual, and in a world where genetics >> would be preprogramed, it just be too perfect. >> It'd just bee too flawless--too artificial. >> I'm sure some people would want it--but a world in which blindness >> and other disabilities are completely eradicated would just be too >> artificial, almost like we literally managed to create our own world in a >way. >> Worse, it would make it a whole lot worse for any blind who were born >> cause then everyone would consider them a scientific failure so to speak. >> Of course, >> I'm hypothetically talking about a very cold world in which science >> would create people which I hope would never happen but its a good >> talking point anyway. >> Jorge >> On Apr 27, 2011, at 12:08 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi all, >> We recently had a discussion about how we would react if some of our >> blind friends could become sighted, and we asked whether it would be >> reasonable for a sighted person to want to go blind. This made me >> think of an interesting, although a bit painful, question: >> Would the world be better off, worse off, or about the same if >> blindness were completely eradicated, through genetic engineering >> and/or mandatory treatment of all causes of blindness? >> The question may sound silly, but for many vision researchers, >> eradication of blindness is a real goal. But does the presence of >> blind people in our society have any benefit to the society or the world >as a whole? >> Certainly there are costs of having a small group of people in >> society who read and travel using different techniques than the rest. >> These specialized techniques have to be taught, technology has to be >> adapted to their use and negative public attitudes prevent this >> minority of people who do things differently from having full access >> to societal goods and opportunities. So would it be cheaper and less >> resource-demanding if everybody could use the same visual techniques to >accomplish life tasks? >> On the other hand, you could perhaps argue that having people who >> use different senses to do things in society is advantageous. >> Technology is forced to innovate to become usable by those who don't >> have vision as well as those who do. And conceivably, if a darkness >> plague struck the planet, it would be better for the species if some >> of its members could fully function without light. >> What do you think? Should we as a society make an effort to get rid >> of blindness? Or does blindness serve any kind of social function? >> There obviously isn't a right answer here, but it's something that, >> for better or for worse, could become relevant to us someday. >> Arielle >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >> ech >> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 >> 0gma >> il.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >> jedi% >> 40samobile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >> Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix. >> com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude >> %40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa 5369%40netzero.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue May 3 04:58:57 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 22:58:57 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NBA basketball Message-ID: So...how bout them Grizlies? ;) On 5/2/11, humberto wrote: > Let's change the subject line now, shall we? * smile * > >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Mike Freeman" >To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 21:35:18 -0700 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. > >>Hey Kirt: > >>The Mavericks blitzed the Trailblazers so NBA is of no use to me > anymore >>this year. (grin) > >>Now if the Washington Capitals can knock off the Tampa Bay > Lightning in the >>NHL so we can in the end have a Capitals Canuks Stanley Cup Final > .. Now >>there's something to care about! :-) > >>Mike > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>Of Kirt Manwaring >>Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:18 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. > >>Mike, >> Very, very well said. Except for the bit about no ultimate > meaning except >>for what we make of life (which, really, is kind of beyond the > scope of this >>meaningless conversation), I totally agree with you. >>Blindness is sometimes a pain in the ass, sometimes it really > makes no >>difference to life one way or another. I guess the only benefit > blindness >>has ever given me is the opportunity to meet some friends who I > would >>otherwise never have known. Other than that, if I'm weighing > pros and cons >>in my own life, blindness isn't really much of a good thing or a > bad >>thing...it's just kind of there. It's certainly not a good > thing, I don't >>think-but it's not really that bad either. >>At any rate, there's plenty more important things to worry > about...like the >>NBA playoffs! :) Go Grizleys! (I kind of adopted them as my > team after >>they upset the spurs-can you say bandwagon fan?) >> Warmest regards, >>Kirt > >>On 5/2/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> Chris: > >>> I agree with you. I did not, in fact, say that diversity could > be >>> negative although I dare say that quite a number of high school > kids >>> trying to "fit in" might think so. In fact, to my way of > thinking, >>> physical diversity is neutral. Intellectual diversity is > certainly an >>> advantage. As for negative diversity -- let's see -- how about > the >>> presence of diseases such as sickle-cell anemia? After all, the > genes >>> that code for this disease also confer some immunity to malaria. > Yet >>> few would disagree with those who seek to cure or eliminate this > disease. > >>> Now I'm not saying blindness is a disease. It is a physical > condition >>> resulting from the lack of one sense -- vision. That's far from > being >>> a disease in my book. But I don't believe blindness confers any >>> advantages, either. > >>> Perhaps a sentence or two about my view of life might help you > to >>> understand where I'm coming from -- it's a view that Jedi does > not >>> subscribe to. Long live diversity, eh? Anyway, I am agnostic. >>> Therefore, I do not believe there is any meaning in life apart > from >>> the meaning we give it by our own actions. Nor do I believe > there is >>> an ultimate purpose to existence except insofar as we overlay it > with a >>gloss of meaning of our own making. >>> Therefore, questions such as "why am I here? Why was I blind? > What >>> purpose does my blindness serve in the larger scheme of things?" > have >>> no answers and, in fact, make no sense to even ask. It's sort > of like >>> in quantum mechanics where it makes no sense to ask whether an >>> electron is a wave or a particle. > >>> Anyway, with that world view in mind and bearing in mind that I >>> subscribe to the NFB notion that with training and opportunity, >>> blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical > inconvenience and >>> that we, the blind, are simply normal people who cannot see, I > do not >>> see that having blind people around confers some special > blessing on >>> society. Blindness is just that -- the lack of sight. I do not >>> believe that it renders us privy to special insights, miraculous >>> talents or capacities or special cultural predilections. I am >>> therefore not committed to its preservation. Neither, on the > other >>> hand, am I committed to its eradication. If it happens, so be > it. If >>> it does not, so be it. I'm not going to worry overly-much about > it >>> since it won't happen in my lifetime and there will be > innumerable >>circumstances I cannot foresee so cannot make a binding judgment > upon. > >>> Bottom line: I don't see how we can say that blindness is just > the >>> lack of eyesight while at the same time believing it confers > special >>> virtues or valuable traits for society. I truly do not believe >>> blindness to be all that much of a muchness. Sometimes it's a > pain; >>sometimes it's just there. >>> In my experience, it's never the catalyst for wisdom or > enlightenment. > >>> Now that I've written this to death, on to the next issue! > (smile) > >>> Mike > > >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum >>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 12:55 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. > >>> Being Devil's advocate, what negativity does diversity have? >>> Diversity, by definition, isn't good nor bad, but just > different. >>> So, what is the negative impact of diversity on... who, > society? > >>> Chris Nusbaum > >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities > motto) > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Mike Freeman" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >> Date sent: Sun, 1 May 2011 21:25:10 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. > >>> That presumes that diversity always equals benefit. You and I > are >>> going to have to differ on this one. > >>> Mike > > >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi >>> Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 6:45 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. > >>> I say that disability is a form of diversity, so I wouldn't want > to >>> erase it. > >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi > >>> Original message: >>> Hello all, > >>> This is an interesting discussion, so I thought I'd pop in for > a minute. > >>> This question goes, at the root of it, to how you view > disability. >>> If you view it as an aspect that creates diversity, then > erasing it >>> would be like erasing races or different languages. If you > view >>> disability as a disease, then logically the first response > would be to >>want to cure it. > >>> What do you guys think? > >>> Briley >>> On Apr 27, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >>> Arielle: >>> I think blindness does play a roll--in that it is just one of > many >>> things that make up an individual, and in a world where genetics >>> would be preprogramed, it just be too perfect. >>> It'd just bee too flawless--too artificial. >>> I'm sure some people would want it--but a world in which > blindness >>> and other disabilities are completely eradicated would just be > too >>> artificial, almost like we literally managed to create our own > world in a >>way. > >>> Worse, it would make it a whole lot worse for any blind who > were born >>> cause then everyone would consider them a scientific failure so > to speak. >>> Of course, >>> I'm hypothetically talking about a very cold world in which > science >>> would create people which I hope would never happen but its a > good >>> talking point anyway. > >>> Jorge > > >>> On Apr 27, 2011, at 12:08 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >>> Hi all, > >>> We recently had a discussion about how we would react if some > of our >>> blind friends could become sighted, and we asked whether it > would be >>> reasonable for a sighted person to want to go blind. This made > me >>> think of an interesting, although a bit painful, question: >>> Would the world be better off, worse off, or about the same if >>> blindness were completely eradicated, through genetic > engineering >>> and/or mandatory treatment of all causes of blindness? >>> The question may sound silly, but for many vision researchers, >>> eradication of blindness is a real goal. But does the presence > of >>> blind people in our society have any benefit to the society or > the world >>as a whole? > >>> Certainly there are costs of having a small group of people in >>> society who read and travel using different techniques than the > rest. >>> These specialized techniques have to be taught, technology has > to be >>> adapted to their use and negative public attitudes prevent this >>> minority of people who do things differently from having full > access >>> to societal goods and opportunities. So would it be cheaper > and less >>> resource-demanding if everybody could use the same visual > techniques to >>accomplish life tasks? >>> On the other hand, you could perhaps argue that having people > who >>> use different senses to do things in society is advantageous. >>> Technology is forced to innovate to become usable by those who > don't >>> have vision as well as those who do. And conceivably, if a > darkness >>> plague struck the planet, it would be better for the species if > some >>> of its members could fully function without light. > >>> What do you think? Should we as a society make an effort to get > rid >>> of blindness? Or does blindness serve any kind of social > function? >>> There obviously isn't a right answer here, but it's something > that, >>> for better or for worse, could become relevant to us someday. > >>> Arielle > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >>> ech >>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 >>> 0gma >>> il.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >>> jedi% >>> 40samobile.net > >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >>> Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>> anix.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>> sbaum%40gmail.com > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix. >>> com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude >>> %40gmail.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa > 5369%40netzero.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Tue May 3 05:23:00 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (dsmithnfb at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 22:23:00 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NBA basketball In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Go sharks! * smile* Sent from my iPhone On May 2, 2011, at 9:58 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > So...how bout them Grizlies? ;) > > On 5/2/11, humberto wrote: >> Let's change the subject line now, shall we? * smile * >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Mike Freeman" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 21:35:18 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >> >>> Hey Kirt: >> >>> The Mavericks blitzed the Trailblazers so NBA is of no use to me >> anymore >>> this year. (grin) >> >>> Now if the Washington Capitals can knock off the Tampa Bay >> Lightning in the >>> NHL so we can in the end have a Capitals Canuks Stanley Cup Final >> .. Now >>> there's something to care about! :-) >> >>> Mike >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>> Of Kirt Manwaring >>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:18 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >> >>> Mike, >>> Very, very well said. Except for the bit about no ultimate >> meaning except >>> for what we make of life (which, really, is kind of beyond the >> scope of this >>> meaningless conversation), I totally agree with you. >>> Blindness is sometimes a pain in the ass, sometimes it really >> makes no >>> difference to life one way or another. I guess the only benefit >> blindness >>> has ever given me is the opportunity to meet some friends who I >> would >>> otherwise never have known. Other than that, if I'm weighing >> pros and cons >>> in my own life, blindness isn't really much of a good thing or a >> bad >>> thing...it's just kind of there. It's certainly not a good >> thing, I don't >>> think-but it's not really that bad either. >>> At any rate, there's plenty more important things to worry >> about...like the >>> NBA playoffs! :) Go Grizleys! (I kind of adopted them as my >> team after >>> they upset the spurs-can you say bandwagon fan?) >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >> >>> On 5/2/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>> Chris: >> >>>> I agree with you. I did not, in fact, say that diversity could >> be >>>> negative although I dare say that quite a number of high school >> kids >>>> trying to "fit in" might think so. In fact, to my way of >> thinking, >>>> physical diversity is neutral. Intellectual diversity is >> certainly an >>>> advantage. As for negative diversity -- let's see -- how about >> the >>>> presence of diseases such as sickle-cell anemia? After all, the >> genes >>>> that code for this disease also confer some immunity to malaria. >> Yet >>>> few would disagree with those who seek to cure or eliminate this >> disease. >> >>>> Now I'm not saying blindness is a disease. It is a physical >> condition >>>> resulting from the lack of one sense -- vision. That's far from >> being >>>> a disease in my book. But I don't believe blindness confers any >>>> advantages, either. >> >>>> Perhaps a sentence or two about my view of life might help you >> to >>>> understand where I'm coming from -- it's a view that Jedi does >> not >>>> subscribe to. Long live diversity, eh? Anyway, I am agnostic. >>>> Therefore, I do not believe there is any meaning in life apart >> from >>>> the meaning we give it by our own actions. Nor do I believe >> there is >>>> an ultimate purpose to existence except insofar as we overlay it >> with a >>> gloss of meaning of our own making. >>>> Therefore, questions such as "why am I here? Why was I blind? >> What >>>> purpose does my blindness serve in the larger scheme of things?" >> have >>>> no answers and, in fact, make no sense to even ask. It's sort >> of like >>>> in quantum mechanics where it makes no sense to ask whether an >>>> electron is a wave or a particle. >> >>>> Anyway, with that world view in mind and bearing in mind that I >>>> subscribe to the NFB notion that with training and opportunity, >>>> blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical >> inconvenience and >>>> that we, the blind, are simply normal people who cannot see, I >> do not >>>> see that having blind people around confers some special >> blessing on >>>> society. Blindness is just that -- the lack of sight. I do not >>>> believe that it renders us privy to special insights, miraculous >>>> talents or capacities or special cultural predilections. I am >>>> therefore not committed to its preservation. Neither, on the >> other >>>> hand, am I committed to its eradication. If it happens, so be >> it. If >>>> it does not, so be it. I'm not going to worry overly-much about >> it >>>> since it won't happen in my lifetime and there will be >> innumerable >>> circumstances I cannot foresee so cannot make a binding judgment >> upon. >> >>>> Bottom line: I don't see how we can say that blindness is just >> the >>>> lack of eyesight while at the same time believing it confers >> special >>>> virtues or valuable traits for society. I truly do not believe >>>> blindness to be all that much of a muchness. Sometimes it's a >> pain; >>> sometimes it's just there. >>>> In my experience, it's never the catalyst for wisdom or >> enlightenment. >> >>>> Now that I've written this to death, on to the next issue! >> (smile) >> >>>> Mike >> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum >>>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 12:55 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >> >>>> Being Devil's advocate, what negativity does diversity have? >>>> Diversity, by definition, isn't good nor bad, but just >> different. >>>> So, what is the negative impact of diversity on... who, >> society? >> >>>> Chris Nusbaum >> >>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities >> motto) >> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>> Date sent: Sun, 1 May 2011 21:25:10 -0700 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >> >>>> That presumes that diversity always equals benefit. You and I >> are >>>> going to have to differ on this one. >> >>>> Mike >> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi >>>> Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 6:45 PM >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >> >>>> I say that disability is a form of diversity, so I wouldn't want >> to >>>> erase it. >> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi >> >>>> Original message: >>>> Hello all, >> >>>> This is an interesting discussion, so I thought I'd pop in for >> a minute. >> >>>> This question goes, at the root of it, to how you view >> disability. >>>> If you view it as an aspect that creates diversity, then >> erasing it >>>> would be like erasing races or different languages. If you >> view >>>> disability as a disease, then logically the first response >> would be to >>> want to cure it. >> >>>> What do you guys think? >> >>>> Briley >>>> On Apr 27, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >>>> Arielle: >>>> I think blindness does play a roll--in that it is just one of >> many >>>> things that make up an individual, and in a world where genetics >>>> would be preprogramed, it just be too perfect. >>>> It'd just bee too flawless--too artificial. >>>> I'm sure some people would want it--but a world in which >> blindness >>>> and other disabilities are completely eradicated would just be >> too >>>> artificial, almost like we literally managed to create our own >> world in a >>> way. >> >>>> Worse, it would make it a whole lot worse for any blind who >> were born >>>> cause then everyone would consider them a scientific failure so >> to speak. >>>> Of course, >>>> I'm hypothetically talking about a very cold world in which >> science >>>> would create people which I hope would never happen but its a >> good >>>> talking point anyway. >> >>>> Jorge >> >> >>>> On Apr 27, 2011, at 12:08 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> >>>> Hi all, >> >>>> We recently had a discussion about how we would react if some >> of our >>>> blind friends could become sighted, and we asked whether it >> would be >>>> reasonable for a sighted person to want to go blind. This made >> me >>>> think of an interesting, although a bit painful, question: >>>> Would the world be better off, worse off, or about the same if >>>> blindness were completely eradicated, through genetic >> engineering >>>> and/or mandatory treatment of all causes of blindness? >>>> The question may sound silly, but for many vision researchers, >>>> eradication of blindness is a real goal. But does the presence >> of >>>> blind people in our society have any benefit to the society or >> the world >>> as a whole? >> >>>> Certainly there are costs of having a small group of people in >>>> society who read and travel using different techniques than the >> rest. >>>> These specialized techniques have to be taught, technology has >> to be >>>> adapted to their use and negative public attitudes prevent this >>>> minority of people who do things differently from having full >> access >>>> to societal goods and opportunities. So would it be cheaper >> and less >>>> resource-demanding if everybody could use the same visual >> techniques to >>> accomplish life tasks? >>>> On the other hand, you could perhaps argue that having people >> who >>>> use different senses to do things in society is advantageous. >>>> Technology is forced to innovate to become usable by those who >> don't >>>> have vision as well as those who do. And conceivably, if a >> darkness >>>> plague struck the planet, it would be better for the species if >> some >>>> of its members could fully function without light. >> >>>> What do you think? Should we as a society make an effort to get >> rid >>>> of blindness? Or does blindness serve any kind of social >> function? >>>> There obviously isn't a right answer here, but it's something >> that, >>>> for better or for worse, could become relevant to us someday. >> >>>> Arielle >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >>>> ech >>>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 >>>> 0gma >>>> il.com >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >>>> jedi% >>>> 40samobile.net >> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >>>> Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>>> anix.com >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>>> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix. >>>> com >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >> ydude >>>> %40gmail.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >> 5369%40netzero.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue May 3 05:35:55 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 23:35:55 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dang it! I tried to change the subject line and it started a new thread...oh well. Life hates me. On 5/2/11, humberto wrote: > Let's change the subject line now, shall we? * smile * > >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Mike Freeman" >To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 21:35:18 -0700 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. > >>Hey Kirt: > >>The Mavericks blitzed the Trailblazers so NBA is of no use to me > anymore >>this year. (grin) > >>Now if the Washington Capitals can knock off the Tampa Bay > Lightning in the >>NHL so we can in the end have a Capitals Canuks Stanley Cup Final > .. Now >>there's something to care about! :-) > >>Mike > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>Of Kirt Manwaring >>Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:18 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. > >>Mike, >> Very, very well said. Except for the bit about no ultimate > meaning except >>for what we make of life (which, really, is kind of beyond the > scope of this >>meaningless conversation), I totally agree with you. >>Blindness is sometimes a pain in the ass, sometimes it really > makes no >>difference to life one way or another. I guess the only benefit > blindness >>has ever given me is the opportunity to meet some friends who I > would >>otherwise never have known. Other than that, if I'm weighing > pros and cons >>in my own life, blindness isn't really much of a good thing or a > bad >>thing...it's just kind of there. It's certainly not a good > thing, I don't >>think-but it's not really that bad either. >>At any rate, there's plenty more important things to worry > about...like the >>NBA playoffs! :) Go Grizleys! (I kind of adopted them as my > team after >>they upset the spurs-can you say bandwagon fan?) >> Warmest regards, >>Kirt > >>On 5/2/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> Chris: > >>> I agree with you. I did not, in fact, say that diversity could > be >>> negative although I dare say that quite a number of high school > kids >>> trying to "fit in" might think so. In fact, to my way of > thinking, >>> physical diversity is neutral. Intellectual diversity is > certainly an >>> advantage. As for negative diversity -- let's see -- how about > the >>> presence of diseases such as sickle-cell anemia? After all, the > genes >>> that code for this disease also confer some immunity to malaria. > Yet >>> few would disagree with those who seek to cure or eliminate this > disease. > >>> Now I'm not saying blindness is a disease. It is a physical > condition >>> resulting from the lack of one sense -- vision. That's far from > being >>> a disease in my book. But I don't believe blindness confers any >>> advantages, either. > >>> Perhaps a sentence or two about my view of life might help you > to >>> understand where I'm coming from -- it's a view that Jedi does > not >>> subscribe to. Long live diversity, eh? Anyway, I am agnostic. >>> Therefore, I do not believe there is any meaning in life apart > from >>> the meaning we give it by our own actions. Nor do I believe > there is >>> an ultimate purpose to existence except insofar as we overlay it > with a >>gloss of meaning of our own making. >>> Therefore, questions such as "why am I here? Why was I blind? > What >>> purpose does my blindness serve in the larger scheme of things?" > have >>> no answers and, in fact, make no sense to even ask. It's sort > of like >>> in quantum mechanics where it makes no sense to ask whether an >>> electron is a wave or a particle. > >>> Anyway, with that world view in mind and bearing in mind that I >>> subscribe to the NFB notion that with training and opportunity, >>> blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical > inconvenience and >>> that we, the blind, are simply normal people who cannot see, I > do not >>> see that having blind people around confers some special > blessing on >>> society. Blindness is just that -- the lack of sight. I do not >>> believe that it renders us privy to special insights, miraculous >>> talents or capacities or special cultural predilections. I am >>> therefore not committed to its preservation. Neither, on the > other >>> hand, am I committed to its eradication. If it happens, so be > it. If >>> it does not, so be it. I'm not going to worry overly-much about > it >>> since it won't happen in my lifetime and there will be > innumerable >>circumstances I cannot foresee so cannot make a binding judgment > upon. > >>> Bottom line: I don't see how we can say that blindness is just > the >>> lack of eyesight while at the same time believing it confers > special >>> virtues or valuable traits for society. I truly do not believe >>> blindness to be all that much of a muchness. Sometimes it's a > pain; >>sometimes it's just there. >>> In my experience, it's never the catalyst for wisdom or > enlightenment. > >>> Now that I've written this to death, on to the next issue! > (smile) > >>> Mike > > >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum >>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 12:55 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. > >>> Being Devil's advocate, what negativity does diversity have? >>> Diversity, by definition, isn't good nor bad, but just > different. >>> So, what is the negative impact of diversity on... who, > society? > >>> Chris Nusbaum > >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities > motto) > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Mike Freeman" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >> Date sent: Sun, 1 May 2011 21:25:10 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. > >>> That presumes that diversity always equals benefit. You and I > are >>> going to have to differ on this one. > >>> Mike > > >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi >>> Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 6:45 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. > >>> I say that disability is a form of diversity, so I wouldn't want > to >>> erase it. > >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi > >>> Original message: >>> Hello all, > >>> This is an interesting discussion, so I thought I'd pop in for > a minute. > >>> This question goes, at the root of it, to how you view > disability. >>> If you view it as an aspect that creates diversity, then > erasing it >>> would be like erasing races or different languages. If you > view >>> disability as a disease, then logically the first response > would be to >>want to cure it. > >>> What do you guys think? > >>> Briley >>> On Apr 27, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >>> Arielle: >>> I think blindness does play a roll--in that it is just one of > many >>> things that make up an individual, and in a world where genetics >>> would be preprogramed, it just be too perfect. >>> It'd just bee too flawless--too artificial. >>> I'm sure some people would want it--but a world in which > blindness >>> and other disabilities are completely eradicated would just be > too >>> artificial, almost like we literally managed to create our own > world in a >>way. > >>> Worse, it would make it a whole lot worse for any blind who > were born >>> cause then everyone would consider them a scientific failure so > to speak. >>> Of course, >>> I'm hypothetically talking about a very cold world in which > science >>> would create people which I hope would never happen but its a > good >>> talking point anyway. > >>> Jorge > > >>> On Apr 27, 2011, at 12:08 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >>> Hi all, > >>> We recently had a discussion about how we would react if some > of our >>> blind friends could become sighted, and we asked whether it > would be >>> reasonable for a sighted person to want to go blind. This made > me >>> think of an interesting, although a bit painful, question: >>> Would the world be better off, worse off, or about the same if >>> blindness were completely eradicated, through genetic > engineering >>> and/or mandatory treatment of all causes of blindness? >>> The question may sound silly, but for many vision researchers, >>> eradication of blindness is a real goal. But does the presence > of >>> blind people in our society have any benefit to the society or > the world >>as a whole? > >>> Certainly there are costs of having a small group of people in >>> society who read and travel using different techniques than the > rest. >>> These specialized techniques have to be taught, technology has > to be >>> adapted to their use and negative public attitudes prevent this >>> minority of people who do things differently from having full > access >>> to societal goods and opportunities. So would it be cheaper > and less >>> resource-demanding if everybody could use the same visual > techniques to >>accomplish life tasks? >>> On the other hand, you could perhaps argue that having people > who >>> use different senses to do things in society is advantageous. >>> Technology is forced to innovate to become usable by those who > don't >>> have vision as well as those who do. And conceivably, if a > darkness >>> plague struck the planet, it would be better for the species if > some >>> of its members could fully function without light. > >>> What do you think? Should we as a society make an effort to get > rid >>> of blindness? Or does blindness serve any kind of social > function? >>> There obviously isn't a right answer here, but it's something > that, >>> for better or for worse, could become relevant to us someday. > >>> Arielle > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >>> ech >>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 >>> 0gma >>> il.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >>> jedi% >>> 40samobile.net > >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >>> Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>> anix.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>> sbaum%40gmail.com > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix. >>> com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude >>> %40gmail.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa > 5369%40netzero.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From ignasicambra at gmail.com Tue May 3 06:06:03 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 02:06:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7D6E735B-C42E-4676-AD34-E33A8496A500@gmail.com> Kirt, I disagree. I think eventually most touch screens of this kind will probably be accessible. Look at elevators, for example. These days, most public buildings have their elevator buttons labeled in Braille. Does every company ask for their elevators to be Brailled? They don't. But elevators come with braille buttons by default, and that's all there is to it. I guess at some point, most of these machines which are inaccessible today will have some kind of built-in accessibility from the beginning, so individual stores, airports etc will never have to think about making them accessible. It will take time, of course. But I don't see why this can't happen... On May 3, 2011, at 12:34 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > To all, > Here's my take...and, because I enjoy being an argumentative pain in > the neck, I'm going to enjoy this. :) But before I start, I want to > make it perfectly clear that I'm absolutely for the Technology Bill of > Rights, making new technology accessible ought to be a legal right, > and we are at a disadvantage when technology, like the touch screens > Ashley mentioned are being put in store checkout lines, is used. > But we need to remember we are a minority and the majority of the > population shouldn't bend over backwards to accomodate us. While > having all new technology come to us perfectly accessible is a > laudable goal, it's probably never going to totally be realized. > Should we have the right? Absolutely. Will we ever have it totally? > Probably not...even with the Technology bill of rights, this dream of > Universal Design will probably never be totally realized. That > doesn't mean we don't work towards it-it just means we need to learn > how to live in a world where there are inconveniences we have to deal > with. We may have to stand in lines instead of using the independent > self checkout-deal with it. We may need to get a reader if our > textbooks aren't accessible-too bad. We may need to get assistance > using keosks in the airport-I'm terribly sorry, that's life. e maybe > might even have to go with a trusted family member or friend when > using an ATM...what a terrible tragedy! I can't believe we're so > mistreated, abused, ignored, neglected, forgotten, and treated like > crap by the rest of the evil sighted world that doesn't even give a > damn about us! Life is aweful! This new technology isn't > accessible-woe is me, we're > dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed! Noone even > cares about us! This is a terrible, terrible, no-good world we live > in, because we need to get people to help us use touch > screens...whatever are we going to do? > Now of course that was an exhageration, and I certainly want > technology to be accessible. But rather than spend so much time > complaining about it, let's do our best to get around the > inaccessibility and live our lives! I'm all for pushing to make this > new technology independently usable...but it's probably never going to > totally happen, deal with it. There will always be inconveniences and > annoyences associated with being blind-get used to it. The world will > never perfectly cater to our every whim, get over it. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/2/11, humberto wrote: >> Sorry, but your message came out blank: Subject: Re: [Nabs-l] New >> Technology And blindness, sent on Sonday may 1, 2011 at 9:33 AM >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Chris Nusbaum >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list>> Date sent: Sun, 01 May 2011 09:33:12 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >> 5369%40netzero.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue May 3 06:10:26 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 00:10:26 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: <7D6E735B-C42E-4676-AD34-E33A8496A500@gmail.com> References: <7D6E735B-C42E-4676-AD34-E33A8496A500@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ignasi, I actually think you're right about touch screens-I was more talking about technology in general. By the time touch screens become universally accessible (or pretty close, I don't think they'll ever totally be completely universal) something new and probably inaccessible will come along. Accessibility will always be a step or two behind current technology, I think that's just life. Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/3/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > Kirt, > I disagree. I think eventually most touch screens of this kind will probably > be accessible. Look at elevators, for example. These days, most public > buildings have their elevator buttons labeled in Braille. Does every company > ask for their elevators to be Brailled? They don't. But elevators come with > braille buttons by default, and that's all there is to it. I guess at some > point, most of these machines which are inaccessible today will have some > kind of built-in accessibility from the beginning, so individual stores, > airports etc will never have to think about making them accessible. It will > take time, of course. But I don't see why this can't happen... > On May 3, 2011, at 12:34 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >> To all, >> Here's my take...and, because I enjoy being an argumentative pain in >> the neck, I'm going to enjoy this. :) But before I start, I want to >> make it perfectly clear that I'm absolutely for the Technology Bill of >> Rights, making new technology accessible ought to be a legal right, >> and we are at a disadvantage when technology, like the touch screens >> Ashley mentioned are being put in store checkout lines, is used. >> But we need to remember we are a minority and the majority of the >> population shouldn't bend over backwards to accomodate us. While >> having all new technology come to us perfectly accessible is a >> laudable goal, it's probably never going to totally be realized. >> Should we have the right? Absolutely. Will we ever have it totally? >> Probably not...even with the Technology bill of rights, this dream of >> Universal Design will probably never be totally realized. That >> doesn't mean we don't work towards it-it just means we need to learn >> how to live in a world where there are inconveniences we have to deal >> with. We may have to stand in lines instead of using the independent >> self checkout-deal with it. We may need to get a reader if our >> textbooks aren't accessible-too bad. We may need to get assistance >> using keosks in the airport-I'm terribly sorry, that's life. e maybe >> might even have to go with a trusted family member or friend when >> using an ATM...what a terrible tragedy! I can't believe we're so >> mistreated, abused, ignored, neglected, forgotten, and treated like >> crap by the rest of the evil sighted world that doesn't even give a >> damn about us! Life is aweful! This new technology isn't >> accessible-woe is me, we're >> dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed! Noone even >> cares about us! This is a terrible, terrible, no-good world we live >> in, because we need to get people to help us use touch >> screens...whatever are we going to do? >> Now of course that was an exhageration, and I certainly want >> technology to be accessible. But rather than spend so much time >> complaining about it, let's do our best to get around the >> inaccessibility and live our lives! I'm all for pushing to make this >> new technology independently usable...but it's probably never going to >> totally happen, deal with it. There will always be inconveniences and >> annoyences associated with being blind-get used to it. The world will >> never perfectly cater to our every whim, get over it. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/2/11, humberto wrote: >>> Sorry, but your message came out blank: Subject: Re: [Nabs-l] New >>> Technology And blindness, sent on Sonday may 1, 2011 at 9:33 AM >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Chris Nusbaum >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing >>> list>>> Date sent: Sun, 01 May 2011 09:33:12 -0400 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>> 5369%40netzero.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From ignasicambra at gmail.com Tue May 3 06:17:58 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 02:17:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material In-Reply-To: References: <4dbf4c2d.8735e50a.7baa.ffffab0f@mx.google.com><2CF8B64A184943328903C8CADDB5A8BA@OwnerPC> Message-ID: If you have a Mac, with VO you can mark up to 10 spots. On May 2, 2011, at 9:09 PM, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > Also, if you have JAWS 12, and you need to mark your place just for the moment while you go somewhere else in the document, you can use ALT, windows k to mark your place and windows k to return to it. I wish that FS would allow for multiple place markers like the BrailleNote does. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Perrault" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:01 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > >> >> Hi All, >> A tip: If I'm reading an e-text book on my laptop with JAWS, and I don't >> want to lose my place, I mark my place by putting *****, then saving the >> Word document since the book is in Word usually, then when I want to reread >> it, I just do a find and hit *****. I just came up with that method on my >> own, and it's five stars, not three as JAWS says. >> Ian >> Ian >> >> -----Original Message----- From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net >> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 8:50 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >> >> Oh, maybe the website for the publisher or book will explain the topics in >> the book. I'll check. Some books have a website with interactive quizzes, >> study guides, etc. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum >> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 8:28 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >> >> Yes, you're right! So, let me give you another option. If you >> read a textbook online, usually the Web site will offer a form >> field where you can search for topics in the book. Although we >> don't use it a lot, we can get all our textbooks for class on >> either www.classzone.com or on the publisher's Web site, either >> for science and math: www.phsschool.com or for English: >> www.glencoe.com. If you're using JAWS and get your textbooks >> online, hit insert F 5 for the select a form field list. See if >> there's a "search book" or "search index" or something like that >> in the list. If so, try that! >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 17:42:34 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >> >> Chris, >> I use a computer; but as I said to find a text segment, you got >> to know the >> words exactly you're looking for. If you have a variation on it, >> that won't >> help. Plus some stuff is probably just in the index/glossary, >> like >> definitions. Often the index is not part of my e-text and even >> if it is, >> its so big that using a computer may not be practical to find it. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Chris Nusbaum >> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 3:55 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >> >> I don't know whether you use a computer or notetaker to read >> E-texts, but if you have JAWS on a computer or use a Braille-Note >> BT, you can use a find command to find a text string, or >> word/phrase in a large document like a textbook. On a >> Braille-Note, hit space with F for the find command. Then it >> will ask you, "Search forward or back?" If you want to search for >> something that you know is further into the text than you >> currently are, het f for forward, and to search for something >> before the place where you are, hit b for back. Then, it will >> prompt "Find?" Type the text string you want to search for and >> hit Enter. If it finds the string you're searching for, it will >> put your cursor under that string. If you use JAWS on your >> computer, I think the find command is Alt F3, but don't quote me >> on that. I'll have to check and get back to you on that. If >> there's someone else on the list who knows what the Find command >> on JAWS is, please let us know. Hope that helps! >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 00:31:32 -0400 >> Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >> >> Hi all, >> >> College texts are full of words and examples. Frustrating when >> you cannot skim through especially when you need the highlights >> for a test. >> I take notes when reading. But my notes don?셳 always amount to >> what the professor tells us to study for the test, if they tell >> us. >> >> So what do you do when the professor has a study guide? >> Some students take it and jot down the coresponding pages to the >> study topics and study those pages. >> How do you use it? >> Sometimes professors give a list of terms/concepts to study or a >> list of questions to guide your preparation. My communication >> professor outlined on the board what concepts we needed to know >> for our final. >> But here?셲 the thing. I cannot skim the text or look up words. >> My notes may or may not have them. Even if they do, its still >> looking for a needle in a haystack when reviewing for finals! So >> I?셶e usually had to ask a reader; they act as my eyes and look >> in the index for the key words or skim for the key words or >> headings in the chapter. >> >> For me, I usually use audio whenever possible. But even with >> e-texts, I cannot skim because I don?셳 know the exact phrase >> and without that the computer does Not know what to look for; >> also >> it is divided in to chapters and I cannot search across chapters. >> Another thing, how do you work with open book exams? >> Do you have a reader there and they look up any info from the >> book? That is what I?셶e done. >> Again, openbook tests let you use it as a reference tool, but >> that is hard for us. >> >> So any tips for studying or ?쐓kimming??would be good. How >> can you direct a reader to actually skim? Usually they will read >> too much to me rather than just the main paragraph of the topic; >> generally under the main headings I find the introduction to the >> concept and smaller headings tell you details/examples. >> >> >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma >> hb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iperrault%40hotmail.com >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Tue May 3 06:19:23 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 02:19:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: References: <7D6E735B-C42E-4676-AD34-E33A8496A500@gmail.com> Message-ID: I completely agree:) I will admit that I did not finish reading your previous message before I responded. I think I've been having too much Red Bull today... On May 3, 2011, at 2:10 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Ignasi, > I actually think you're right about touch screens-I was more talking > about technology in general. By the time touch screens become > universally accessible (or pretty close, I don't think they'll ever > totally be completely universal) something new and probably > inaccessible will come along. Accessibility will always be a step or > two behind current technology, I think that's just life. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/3/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> Kirt, >> I disagree. I think eventually most touch screens of this kind will probably >> be accessible. Look at elevators, for example. These days, most public >> buildings have their elevator buttons labeled in Braille. Does every company >> ask for their elevators to be Brailled? They don't. But elevators come with >> braille buttons by default, and that's all there is to it. I guess at some >> point, most of these machines which are inaccessible today will have some >> kind of built-in accessibility from the beginning, so individual stores, >> airports etc will never have to think about making them accessible. It will >> take time, of course. But I don't see why this can't happen... >> On May 3, 2011, at 12:34 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >>> To all, >>> Here's my take...and, because I enjoy being an argumentative pain in >>> the neck, I'm going to enjoy this. :) But before I start, I want to >>> make it perfectly clear that I'm absolutely for the Technology Bill of >>> Rights, making new technology accessible ought to be a legal right, >>> and we are at a disadvantage when technology, like the touch screens >>> Ashley mentioned are being put in store checkout lines, is used. >>> But we need to remember we are a minority and the majority of the >>> population shouldn't bend over backwards to accomodate us. While >>> having all new technology come to us perfectly accessible is a >>> laudable goal, it's probably never going to totally be realized. >>> Should we have the right? Absolutely. Will we ever have it totally? >>> Probably not...even with the Technology bill of rights, this dream of >>> Universal Design will probably never be totally realized. That >>> doesn't mean we don't work towards it-it just means we need to learn >>> how to live in a world where there are inconveniences we have to deal >>> with. We may have to stand in lines instead of using the independent >>> self checkout-deal with it. We may need to get a reader if our >>> textbooks aren't accessible-too bad. We may need to get assistance >>> using keosks in the airport-I'm terribly sorry, that's life. e maybe >>> might even have to go with a trusted family member or friend when >>> using an ATM...what a terrible tragedy! I can't believe we're so >>> mistreated, abused, ignored, neglected, forgotten, and treated like >>> crap by the rest of the evil sighted world that doesn't even give a >>> damn about us! Life is aweful! This new technology isn't >>> accessible-woe is me, we're >>> dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed! Noone even >>> cares about us! This is a terrible, terrible, no-good world we live >>> in, because we need to get people to help us use touch >>> screens...whatever are we going to do? >>> Now of course that was an exhageration, and I certainly want >>> technology to be accessible. But rather than spend so much time >>> complaining about it, let's do our best to get around the >>> inaccessibility and live our lives! I'm all for pushing to make this >>> new technology independently usable...but it's probably never going to >>> totally happen, deal with it. There will always be inconveniences and >>> annoyences associated with being blind-get used to it. The world will >>> never perfectly cater to our every whim, get over it. >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/2/11, humberto wrote: >>>> Sorry, but your message came out blank: Subject: Re: [Nabs-l] New >>>> Technology And blindness, sent on Sonday may 1, 2011 at 9:33 AM >>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Chris Nusbaum >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>> list>>>> Date sent: Sun, 01 May 2011 09:33:12 -0400 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>>> 5369%40netzero.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Tue May 3 06:26:11 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 02:26:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS In-Reply-To: References: <20F30263B78D44D98DE4F17EDD02B660@OwnerPC> <76ECABBF-7025-4A70-A1B6-54DF93D9EC7E@gmail.com> <613C0503A5A54ED89A6C7D97C6DB3AE1@OwnerPC> <089F83C8-C314-43F3-B922-28D184F7F486@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5C9A9FFB-77A7-4CDA-B5BB-95753DE4188F@gmail.com> I like what we have in Barcelona (Spain): blind people can ask for a remote which can be used to activate audible traffic signals. This same remote can also be used to make a bus tell you its number when it comes. The system is not perfect yet, but it works most of the time. On May 2, 2011, at 7:42 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Ashley and all, > > I don't know exactly what NFB's official position is at this point. I > personally am a big fan of audible traffic signals, for a few reasons. > First, as you pointed out, there are several kinds of intersections > where the auditory cue to cross is rather subtle-such as > T-intersections, those where the parallel street is generally quiet or > those with leading turn arrows, where you have to listen for the > turning traffic to stop before crossing. I know it is possible to > reliably cross these kinds of intersections using traffic cues alone, > but the potential for mistakes (both missing the cue to cross and > inadvertently crossing at the wrong time) is substantial especially > for those who have had insufficient training. Second, as far as I > know, there is no reliable way to tell when your walk signal is about > to end. So if you come up to an intersection and the light is in your > favor, there's no way to tell whether you will have enough time to > cross before the light changes. The only really safe way to handle > this is to wait until the light turns red and then green again, which > can be inconvenient. Trust me, I've gambled on these and tried to > cross without enough time-the result is scary not to mention > embarrassing. Finally, though I know this logic is not always popular, > I do think that if the sighted are given a clear cue to cross the > street and it is not an undue hardship to make that signal accessible > to the blind, it should be done. I can't imagine an intersection where > sighted pedestrians are expected to watch the traffic without any kind > of walk signal or light indicating when it was safe to cross. > That being said, I don't think this necessarily has to be our biggest > priority at this time. I also recognize that some blind travelers find > audible signals bothersome and I would support some way of making the > sound optional or implementing a tactile (i.e. vibrating) signal, > which would also benefit the deaf-blind. > > Arielle > > On 5/2/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> I thought it wasn't supposed to be enforced till like 2012? >> >> >> On May 2, 2011, at 7:14 PM, wrote: >> >>> George, >>> Actually the ACB seems as mad as ever; yes they won in the court; but the >>> government has not produced accessible currency yet. >>> Some do not feel the decision will be enforced. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez >>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:57 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS >>> >>> I believe the national is officially against expanding the use of APS. >>> >>> As far as accessible currency, didn't the ACB already close that case in >>> court? >>> ACB V. US trasury 2009 or something like that? >>> >>> >>> On May 2, 2011, at 6:36 PM, wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they are >>>> taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency >>>> topics and really trashing the NFB and they don’t know the real positions >>>> and facts. >>>> They think NFB opposes both. >>>> I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions? >>>> Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. >>>> >>>> What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do you >>>> think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? >>>> Personally, I’d like the APS at intersections where you have to press the >>>> walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk signal to know when >>>> our time starts; you have to press the button in order to tell the >>>> computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk phase to cross the >>>> street. I think these are called actuated signals. These streets favor >>>> drivers, not pedestrians; the busier streets get more traffic time. That >>>> change of the signal is activated by a computer. >>>> >>>> At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, without a >>>> button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues to hear to >>>> cross. >>>> I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn >>>> lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some signals >>>> even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk interval. >>>> >>>> So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient traffic >>>> cues to cross the street. I’ve tried to learn how to cross T streets, >>>> and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help there too. No >>>> parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. >>>> >>>> Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on APS, >>>> so I’m not sure what it is now. I certainly don’t want them everywhere, >>>> but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see their use. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > Phone: 602-502-2255 > Email: > nabs.president at gmail.com > Website: > www.nabslink.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Tue May 3 09:29:34 2011 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 05:29:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China References: <281C8306452748D89E95636DC277B1C4@tinad85eb5cc31> Message-ID: I'm a licensed minister, and so when I heard Bethel, I thought it was christian based. Thanks for clarifing that for me. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 10:50 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China > The French couple and some of the volunteers are Christians, but religion > is not required. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "RJ Sandefur" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 4:26 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China > > >> Is this a religious organization? RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 10:13 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China >> >> >>> Dear Beth, >>> >>> I am teaching English at the center, and also doing project consultant >>> work. So far, we have one mobility instructor from California, one >>> multiple-disability educator from France, one blind Braille teacher, one >>> music teacher, and five Chinese teachers. Of course, the orphanage have >>> many care-givers, administraters, fund raisers, public relation manager >>> and staff members. Bethel has foster care, education and self-care >>> training for kids. Bethel even has its own farm field, so the kids can >>> help to feed dogs, goats, chickens, ducks. Right now, I am trying to >>> push to open up a job training course; however, I can't stay in Beijing >>> for too long. If any of you is interested to do job training, >>> counciling, independence training, I am sure you will be very helpful in >>> Bethel. >>> >>> I must encourage kids to learn, to live and to travel independently. >>> It'll be wonderful if we can something together. My skype is >>> jing.wu.crystal >>> MSN: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Crystal >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Beth" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:57 AM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China >>> >>> >>>> Crystal, >>>> What can the folks at the CCB in Denver, Colorado do for the >>>> orphanage? What can any ordinary people do to help the kids? I am >>>> interested in helping blind people overseas too, but not China >>>> necessarily. But it's fascinating. Do you have Skype? Do write me >>>> off list at >>>> thebluesisloose at gmail.com >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> Beth Taurasi >>>> >>>> On 5/2/11, Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 wrote: >>>>> Dear all, >>>>> >>>>> I am currently working in an orphanage for the blind in Beijing. >>>>> Bethel Home >>>>> has 45 blind children, and it's a NGO orphanage run by a french >>>>> couple. Just >>>>> wonder if any students will be interested to do internship or >>>>> volunteer work >>>>> in Beijing. You may visit >>>>> www.bethelchina.org >>>>> >>>>> Most of the kids speak English and Chinese. Many of the volunteers are >>>>> from >>>>> Europe and North America. Too bad I have to return to school in >>>>> Stockholm >>>>> this summer. Hope any of you can support and help the kids in any way >>>>> you >>>>> can. Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> Crystal >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Tina Hansen" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Cc: "Correspondence Committee Mailing List" >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:51 AM >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Food for Thought: Presenting Our Message as Theater >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Not long ago, I learned that the Braille Institute in Los Angeles, >>>>>> California, produced a series of recordings called Sound Solutions. >>>>>> They >>>>>> present tools and techniques for coping with blindness and vision >>>>>> loss in >>>>>> a number of dramatic formats. I thought: it might be cool if we could >>>>>> do >>>>>> that. We do have a play at our National convention, but that's about >>>>>> it. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure if I agree with everything they present, but I still >>>>>> think we >>>>>> >>>>>> can learn from it. To get an idea of what they do, you can go to >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.airsla.org/soundsolutions.asp >>>>>> >>>>>> The episodes cover topics such as: home management, coping skills, >>>>>> and >>>>>> many other topics, and with one exception, most of them are 30 >>>>>> minutes or >>>>>> less. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm presenting this for what it's worth, since I know that we have >>>>>> some >>>>>> creative people out there, and I also know that if we can present our >>>>>> message in a creative way, it might interest the younger generation. >>>>>> Check >>>>>> >>>>>> it out. Thanks. >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com > From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Tue May 3 11:39:30 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 07:39:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: <00c301cc093b$7aca4ae0$705ee0a0$@panix.com> References: <4dbf0c41.42abe60a.5d2a.6b9a@mx.google.com> <74CCEC89-041A-4DE8-9AC0-5F635AC6A27A@gmail.com> <00c301cc093b$7aca4ae0$705ee0a0$@panix.com> Message-ID: <51FB7FC6-4AC2-4287-B7C4-B9519C664A26@gmail.com> Yeah--another of those cases. Good point. On May 2, 2011, at 10:40 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > Remember the brouhaha over Napster? > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Jorge Paez > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 2:25 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Chris: > Your logic is flawless. > Taking it from a business point, > it makes complete sense though. > Here's the thing: > those groups sometimes make very dumb decisions with a closed mind. > For example: can you imagine they tried to attack the sale of second hand > books? > > Like, > say you have a book and sold it to someone who really wants it, well, they > tried to classify that as a violation of copyright! law. > > > So yeah, those groups aren't always logical about their decisions. > > Jorge > > > > On May 2, 2011, at 3:55 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > >> That's their argument, but it makes no sense to me. There are about 3.1 > million blind people in the country. So the authors really would be getting > * more * money from * more * customers wanting to buy and read their books, > but can't because the E-books are inaccessible and only 5 percent of books > are available in Braille. I don't get it! If they're worried about money > from sold books so much, then they should be happy that in enableing > text-to-speech on E-book readers like the Kindle, there would be more books > sold. Therefore, by enableing TTS on the Kindle, the revenue from sold > books coming into the authors would be * raised, * not lowered! See the > iPad, hint hint. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jorge Paez > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness >> >> Is it true they're not allowing it because "its a market?" >> >> In other words, >> they wanna record text to speech engines reading books to sell as part of > mainstream sales later on and so they're not allowing it in current devices. >> >> >> On May 1, 2011, at 9:25 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >> >> Partly. But we're nowhere near there yet and some Kindle books still >> don't allow speech access. >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net >> Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 4:37 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness >> >> Glad to have the coalition website; and did the kindle become accessible? >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tina Hansen >> Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 7:04 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness >> >> Maybe I can explain. The Reading Rights Coalition is not officially >> affiliated with the NFB, but it's a consortium of organizations who >> have voiced their concerns about access to the Kindle and other >> mainstream electronic books. The coalition is made up of blindness >> organizations as well as organizations with other disabilities that >> make reading print difficult. The web site is >> >> www.readingrights.org >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma >> hb%40earthl >> ink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >> echjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjo >> rgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Tue May 3 11:43:05 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 07:43:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NBA basketball In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <118BBEE4-A439-4CA0-B16C-641170F1D2CF@gmail.com> LOL. Thought it would be NHl you'd pick. On May 3, 2011, at 12:58 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > So...how bout them Grizlies? ;) > > On 5/2/11, humberto wrote: >> Let's change the subject line now, shall we? * smile * >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Mike Freeman" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 21:35:18 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >> >>> Hey Kirt: >> >>> The Mavericks blitzed the Trailblazers so NBA is of no use to me >> anymore >>> this year. (grin) >> >>> Now if the Washington Capitals can knock off the Tampa Bay >> Lightning in the >>> NHL so we can in the end have a Capitals Canuks Stanley Cup Final >> .. Now >>> there's something to care about! :-) >> >>> Mike >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>> Of Kirt Manwaring >>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:18 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >> >>> Mike, >>> Very, very well said. Except for the bit about no ultimate >> meaning except >>> for what we make of life (which, really, is kind of beyond the >> scope of this >>> meaningless conversation), I totally agree with you. >>> Blindness is sometimes a pain in the ass, sometimes it really >> makes no >>> difference to life one way or another. I guess the only benefit >> blindness >>> has ever given me is the opportunity to meet some friends who I >> would >>> otherwise never have known. Other than that, if I'm weighing >> pros and cons >>> in my own life, blindness isn't really much of a good thing or a >> bad >>> thing...it's just kind of there. It's certainly not a good >> thing, I don't >>> think-but it's not really that bad either. >>> At any rate, there's plenty more important things to worry >> about...like the >>> NBA playoffs! :) Go Grizleys! (I kind of adopted them as my >> team after >>> they upset the spurs-can you say bandwagon fan?) >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >> >>> On 5/2/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>> Chris: >> >>>> I agree with you. I did not, in fact, say that diversity could >> be >>>> negative although I dare say that quite a number of high school >> kids >>>> trying to "fit in" might think so. In fact, to my way of >> thinking, >>>> physical diversity is neutral. Intellectual diversity is >> certainly an >>>> advantage. As for negative diversity -- let's see -- how about >> the >>>> presence of diseases such as sickle-cell anemia? After all, the >> genes >>>> that code for this disease also confer some immunity to malaria. >> Yet >>>> few would disagree with those who seek to cure or eliminate this >> disease. >> >>>> Now I'm not saying blindness is a disease. It is a physical >> condition >>>> resulting from the lack of one sense -- vision. That's far from >> being >>>> a disease in my book. But I don't believe blindness confers any >>>> advantages, either. >> >>>> Perhaps a sentence or two about my view of life might help you >> to >>>> understand where I'm coming from -- it's a view that Jedi does >> not >>>> subscribe to. Long live diversity, eh? Anyway, I am agnostic. >>>> Therefore, I do not believe there is any meaning in life apart >> from >>>> the meaning we give it by our own actions. Nor do I believe >> there is >>>> an ultimate purpose to existence except insofar as we overlay it >> with a >>> gloss of meaning of our own making. >>>> Therefore, questions such as "why am I here? Why was I blind? >> What >>>> purpose does my blindness serve in the larger scheme of things?" >> have >>>> no answers and, in fact, make no sense to even ask. It's sort >> of like >>>> in quantum mechanics where it makes no sense to ask whether an >>>> electron is a wave or a particle. >> >>>> Anyway, with that world view in mind and bearing in mind that I >>>> subscribe to the NFB notion that with training and opportunity, >>>> blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical >> inconvenience and >>>> that we, the blind, are simply normal people who cannot see, I >> do not >>>> see that having blind people around confers some special >> blessing on >>>> society. Blindness is just that -- the lack of sight. I do not >>>> believe that it renders us privy to special insights, miraculous >>>> talents or capacities or special cultural predilections. I am >>>> therefore not committed to its preservation. Neither, on the >> other >>>> hand, am I committed to its eradication. If it happens, so be >> it. If >>>> it does not, so be it. I'm not going to worry overly-much about >> it >>>> since it won't happen in my lifetime and there will be >> innumerable >>> circumstances I cannot foresee so cannot make a binding judgment >> upon. >> >>>> Bottom line: I don't see how we can say that blindness is just >> the >>>> lack of eyesight while at the same time believing it confers >> special >>>> virtues or valuable traits for society. I truly do not believe >>>> blindness to be all that much of a muchness. Sometimes it's a >> pain; >>> sometimes it's just there. >>>> In my experience, it's never the catalyst for wisdom or >> enlightenment. >> >>>> Now that I've written this to death, on to the next issue! >> (smile) >> >>>> Mike >> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum >>>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 12:55 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >> >>>> Being Devil's advocate, what negativity does diversity have? >>>> Diversity, by definition, isn't good nor bad, but just >> different. >>>> So, what is the negative impact of diversity on... who, >> society? >> >>>> Chris Nusbaum >> >>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities >> motto) >> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>> Date sent: Sun, 1 May 2011 21:25:10 -0700 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >> >>>> That presumes that diversity always equals benefit. You and I >> are >>>> going to have to differ on this one. >> >>>> Mike >> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi >>>> Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 6:45 PM >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >> >>>> I say that disability is a form of diversity, so I wouldn't want >> to >>>> erase it. >> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi >> >>>> Original message: >>>> Hello all, >> >>>> This is an interesting discussion, so I thought I'd pop in for >> a minute. >> >>>> This question goes, at the root of it, to how you view >> disability. >>>> If you view it as an aspect that creates diversity, then >> erasing it >>>> would be like erasing races or different languages. If you >> view >>>> disability as a disease, then logically the first response >> would be to >>> want to cure it. >> >>>> What do you guys think? >> >>>> Briley >>>> On Apr 27, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >>>> Arielle: >>>> I think blindness does play a roll--in that it is just one of >> many >>>> things that make up an individual, and in a world where genetics >>>> would be preprogramed, it just be too perfect. >>>> It'd just bee too flawless--too artificial. >>>> I'm sure some people would want it--but a world in which >> blindness >>>> and other disabilities are completely eradicated would just be >> too >>>> artificial, almost like we literally managed to create our own >> world in a >>> way. >> >>>> Worse, it would make it a whole lot worse for any blind who >> were born >>>> cause then everyone would consider them a scientific failure so >> to speak. >>>> Of course, >>>> I'm hypothetically talking about a very cold world in which >> science >>>> would create people which I hope would never happen but its a >> good >>>> talking point anyway. >> >>>> Jorge >> >> >>>> On Apr 27, 2011, at 12:08 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> >>>> Hi all, >> >>>> We recently had a discussion about how we would react if some >> of our >>>> blind friends could become sighted, and we asked whether it >> would be >>>> reasonable for a sighted person to want to go blind. This made >> me >>>> think of an interesting, although a bit painful, question: >>>> Would the world be better off, worse off, or about the same if >>>> blindness were completely eradicated, through genetic >> engineering >>>> and/or mandatory treatment of all causes of blindness? >>>> The question may sound silly, but for many vision researchers, >>>> eradication of blindness is a real goal. But does the presence >> of >>>> blind people in our society have any benefit to the society or >> the world >>> as a whole? >> >>>> Certainly there are costs of having a small group of people in >>>> society who read and travel using different techniques than the >> rest. >>>> These specialized techniques have to be taught, technology has >> to be >>>> adapted to their use and negative public attitudes prevent this >>>> minority of people who do things differently from having full >> access >>>> to societal goods and opportunities. So would it be cheaper >> and less >>>> resource-demanding if everybody could use the same visual >> techniques to >>> accomplish life tasks? >>>> On the other hand, you could perhaps argue that having people >> who >>>> use different senses to do things in society is advantageous. >>>> Technology is forced to innovate to become usable by those who >> don't >>>> have vision as well as those who do. And conceivably, if a >> darkness >>>> plague struck the planet, it would be better for the species if >> some >>>> of its members could fully function without light. >> >>>> What do you think? Should we as a society make an effort to get >> rid >>>> of blindness? Or does blindness serve any kind of social >> function? >>>> There obviously isn't a right answer here, but it's something >> that, >>>> for better or for worse, could become relevant to us someday. >> >>>> Arielle >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >>>> ech >>>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 >>>> 0gma >>>> il.com >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >>>> jedi% >>>> 40samobile.net >> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >>>> Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>>> anix.com >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>>> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix. >>>> com >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >> ydude >>>> %40gmail.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >> 5369%40netzero.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Tue May 3 11:43:29 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 07:43:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NBA basketball In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <175909E5-BF1F-4277-B601-8409CA433A2F@gmail.com> Are the celtix still in? On May 3, 2011, at 1:23 AM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: > Go sharks! * smile* > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 2, 2011, at 9:58 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >> So...how bout them Grizlies? ;) >> >> On 5/2/11, humberto wrote: >>> Let's change the subject line now, shall we? * smile * >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >>> Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 21:35:18 -0700 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >>> >>>> Hey Kirt: >>> >>>> The Mavericks blitzed the Trailblazers so NBA is of no use to me >>> anymore >>>> this year. (grin) >>> >>>> Now if the Washington Capitals can knock off the Tampa Bay >>> Lightning in the >>>> NHL so we can in the end have a Capitals Canuks Stanley Cup Final >>> .. Now >>>> there's something to care about! :-) >>> >>>> Mike >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>>> Of Kirt Manwaring >>>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:18 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >>> >>>> Mike, >>>> Very, very well said. Except for the bit about no ultimate >>> meaning except >>>> for what we make of life (which, really, is kind of beyond the >>> scope of this >>>> meaningless conversation), I totally agree with you. >>>> Blindness is sometimes a pain in the ass, sometimes it really >>> makes no >>>> difference to life one way or another. I guess the only benefit >>> blindness >>>> has ever given me is the opportunity to meet some friends who I >>> would >>>> otherwise never have known. Other than that, if I'm weighing >>> pros and cons >>>> in my own life, blindness isn't really much of a good thing or a >>> bad >>>> thing...it's just kind of there. It's certainly not a good >>> thing, I don't >>>> think-but it's not really that bad either. >>>> At any rate, there's plenty more important things to worry >>> about...like the >>>> NBA playoffs! :) Go Grizleys! (I kind of adopted them as my >>> team after >>>> they upset the spurs-can you say bandwagon fan?) >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >>> >>>> On 5/2/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>>> Chris: >>> >>>>> I agree with you. I did not, in fact, say that diversity could >>> be >>>>> negative although I dare say that quite a number of high school >>> kids >>>>> trying to "fit in" might think so. In fact, to my way of >>> thinking, >>>>> physical diversity is neutral. Intellectual diversity is >>> certainly an >>>>> advantage. As for negative diversity -- let's see -- how about >>> the >>>>> presence of diseases such as sickle-cell anemia? After all, the >>> genes >>>>> that code for this disease also confer some immunity to malaria. >>> Yet >>>>> few would disagree with those who seek to cure or eliminate this >>> disease. >>> >>>>> Now I'm not saying blindness is a disease. It is a physical >>> condition >>>>> resulting from the lack of one sense -- vision. That's far from >>> being >>>>> a disease in my book. But I don't believe blindness confers any >>>>> advantages, either. >>> >>>>> Perhaps a sentence or two about my view of life might help you >>> to >>>>> understand where I'm coming from -- it's a view that Jedi does >>> not >>>>> subscribe to. Long live diversity, eh? Anyway, I am agnostic. >>>>> Therefore, I do not believe there is any meaning in life apart >>> from >>>>> the meaning we give it by our own actions. Nor do I believe >>> there is >>>>> an ultimate purpose to existence except insofar as we overlay it >>> with a >>>> gloss of meaning of our own making. >>>>> Therefore, questions such as "why am I here? Why was I blind? >>> What >>>>> purpose does my blindness serve in the larger scheme of things?" >>> have >>>>> no answers and, in fact, make no sense to even ask. It's sort >>> of like >>>>> in quantum mechanics where it makes no sense to ask whether an >>>>> electron is a wave or a particle. >>> >>>>> Anyway, with that world view in mind and bearing in mind that I >>>>> subscribe to the NFB notion that with training and opportunity, >>>>> blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical >>> inconvenience and >>>>> that we, the blind, are simply normal people who cannot see, I >>> do not >>>>> see that having blind people around confers some special >>> blessing on >>>>> society. Blindness is just that -- the lack of sight. I do not >>>>> believe that it renders us privy to special insights, miraculous >>>>> talents or capacities or special cultural predilections. I am >>>>> therefore not committed to its preservation. Neither, on the >>> other >>>>> hand, am I committed to its eradication. If it happens, so be >>> it. If >>>>> it does not, so be it. I'm not going to worry overly-much about >>> it >>>>> since it won't happen in my lifetime and there will be >>> innumerable >>>> circumstances I cannot foresee so cannot make a binding judgment >>> upon. >>> >>>>> Bottom line: I don't see how we can say that blindness is just >>> the >>>>> lack of eyesight while at the same time believing it confers >>> special >>>>> virtues or valuable traits for society. I truly do not believe >>>>> blindness to be all that much of a muchness. Sometimes it's a >>> pain; >>>> sometimes it's just there. >>>>> In my experience, it's never the catalyst for wisdom or >>> enlightenment. >>> >>>>> Now that I've written this to death, on to the next issue! >>> (smile) >>> >>>>> Mike >>> >>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum >>>>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 12:55 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >>> >>>>> Being Devil's advocate, what negativity does diversity have? >>>>> Diversity, by definition, isn't good nor bad, but just >>> different. >>>>> So, what is the negative impact of diversity on... who, >>> society? >>> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities >>> motto) >>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Sun, 1 May 2011 21:25:10 -0700 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >>> >>>>> That presumes that diversity always equals benefit. You and I >>> are >>>>> going to have to differ on this one. >>> >>>>> Mike >>> >>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi >>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 6:45 PM >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >>> >>>>> I say that disability is a form of diversity, so I wouldn't want >>> to >>>>> erase it. >>> >>>>> Respectfully, >>>>> Jedi >>> >>>>> Original message: >>>>> Hello all, >>> >>>>> This is an interesting discussion, so I thought I'd pop in for >>> a minute. >>> >>>>> This question goes, at the root of it, to how you view >>> disability. >>>>> If you view it as an aspect that creates diversity, then >>> erasing it >>>>> would be like erasing races or different languages. If you >>> view >>>>> disability as a disease, then logically the first response >>> would be to >>>> want to cure it. >>> >>>>> What do you guys think? >>> >>>>> Briley >>>>> On Apr 27, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> >>>>> Arielle: >>>>> I think blindness does play a roll--in that it is just one of >>> many >>>>> things that make up an individual, and in a world where genetics >>>>> would be preprogramed, it just be too perfect. >>>>> It'd just bee too flawless--too artificial. >>>>> I'm sure some people would want it--but a world in which >>> blindness >>>>> and other disabilities are completely eradicated would just be >>> too >>>>> artificial, almost like we literally managed to create our own >>> world in a >>>> way. >>> >>>>> Worse, it would make it a whole lot worse for any blind who >>> were born >>>>> cause then everyone would consider them a scientific failure so >>> to speak. >>>>> Of course, >>>>> I'm hypothetically talking about a very cold world in which >>> science >>>>> would create people which I hope would never happen but its a >>> good >>>>> talking point anyway. >>> >>>>> Jorge >>> >>> >>>>> On Apr 27, 2011, at 12:08 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> >>>>> Hi all, >>> >>>>> We recently had a discussion about how we would react if some >>> of our >>>>> blind friends could become sighted, and we asked whether it >>> would be >>>>> reasonable for a sighted person to want to go blind. This made >>> me >>>>> think of an interesting, although a bit painful, question: >>>>> Would the world be better off, worse off, or about the same if >>>>> blindness were completely eradicated, through genetic >>> engineering >>>>> and/or mandatory treatment of all causes of blindness? >>>>> The question may sound silly, but for many vision researchers, >>>>> eradication of blindness is a real goal. But does the presence >>> of >>>>> blind people in our society have any benefit to the society or >>> the world >>>> as a whole? >>> >>>>> Certainly there are costs of having a small group of people in >>>>> society who read and travel using different techniques than the >>> rest. >>>>> These specialized techniques have to be taught, technology has >>> to be >>>>> adapted to their use and negative public attitudes prevent this >>>>> minority of people who do things differently from having full >>> access >>>>> to societal goods and opportunities. So would it be cheaper >>> and less >>>>> resource-demanding if everybody could use the same visual >>> techniques to >>>> accomplish life tasks? >>>>> On the other hand, you could perhaps argue that having people >>> who >>>>> use different senses to do things in society is advantageous. >>>>> Technology is forced to innovate to become usable by those who >>> don't >>>>> have vision as well as those who do. And conceivably, if a >>> darkness >>>>> plague struck the planet, it would be better for the species if >>> some >>>>> of its members could fully function without light. >>> >>>>> What do you think? Should we as a society make an effort to get >>> rid >>>>> of blindness? Or does blindness serve any kind of social >>> function? >>>>> There obviously isn't a right answer here, but it's something >>> that, >>>>> for better or for worse, could become relevant to us someday. >>> >>>>> Arielle >>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>> >>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >>>>> ech >>>>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>> >>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 >>>>> 0gma >>>>> il.com >>> >>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>> >>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >>>>> jedi% >>>>> 40samobile.net >>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >>>>> Visit >>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> >>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>>>> anix.com >>> >>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>>>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>> anix. >>>>> com >>> >>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>> ydude >>>>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>> anix.com >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>> 5369%40netzero.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue May 3 13:41:16 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 09:41:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Thank You for your Support! In-Reply-To: <00bc01cc0937$50f73010$f2e59030$@panix.com> References: <1105336641650.1101553811939.23196.6.37095025@scheduler> <00bc01cc0937$50f73010$f2e59030$@panix.com> Message-ID: <166DF8841F2B428AB7E8C12C0A74E277@OwnerPC> Mike, This name is very disturbing because they are changing the name to expand and change the mission! No longer is it for those with blindness and learning challenges, it is now for those with any print impairment. They want to expand their scope. I do not believe they are expanding their staff though to meet the need. I'm young, but old fashioned and I like to talk to a live person rather than deal with their cluttered website to order books and get other questions answered. But now it seems like you wait on hold for longer. When they downsized their staff, they cut the full time librarian position; that sucks because when you have a topic, but not a title/author, they used to have the librarian give you a list of books on your topic. You can advance search to some extent on their website, but its not the same. If they want to change their mission, they ought to at least hire increased staff to meat the demand. They downsized, and now they need to up size. As for donations, I'm with you, change the name back and I'll donate. I believe membership is still free even though they lost the earmarks. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Mike Freeman Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 10:10 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: Thank You for your Support! I think we should issue an ultimatum: change your name back and we will support. (evil grin) Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gabriel Cazares Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 4:37 PM To: tabs_students; nabs-l Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Thank You for your Support! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Learning Ally, formerly RFB&D" Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 10:07:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Thank You for your Support! To: gcazares10 at gmail.com Having trouble viewing this email? Click here to view this email as a webpage. http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=dpqs87bab&v=001JbA8pPO1z- MhGsslJGOwOQrhHUKPKfZROcNJuT2qugDy9zjJwS0N0ZTPaco5TIEgbV2suMeaJiVt4A8bH6CsjO n9AvQvdAzGe3dA5eNmAEwKzLcGYmH-zcpsnhbfud9vn4Ql8NC_UmQL2RZ100rfGXnfNsibLTfrzQ lwfGCV1zzLbt_MZsJCCFX7--7PN9i5Y6j-IMJcJhRE_D66I3_dKoh3hHY5wqrdl6L3U8s_vM4lS4 MVOIt3esAnMtPlZuSbjQYUxlW5RvJt9A2p5_bdN2hDYlBOd6IEXwJPpqM8JRCBbez-1Bpafa600u 3Vkz5gWU9kNKGLcqx-mXKTMk3aUcVpFIGy-C7GU2esRrcVe3zwo_pdOzBsUn0_x_CabOpbXUt2BI M2CUkbHw5D-4X-xw%3D%3D You're receiving this email because of your relationship with Learning Ally. Please confirm your continued interest in receiving email from us. http://visitor.r20.constantcontact.com/c.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&t=1105336641650.2 3196.123941028.2&m=1101553811939&wl=F You only have to do this once. You may unsubscribe http://visitor.constantcontact.com/do?p=un&m=001K33QEjKvDIIHs3UwsZPI7A%3D%3D &se=001IyrhS4OSBPQ%3D&t=0018WK4DlChgVvCBYZ1jrRsbw%3D%3D&lang=001FCSs65SMrsI% 3D&reason=001y5KaVlBn7_Y%3D&llr=dpqs87bab if you no longer wish to receive our emails. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ Stay Engaged, Spread the Word ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ May 2, 2011 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ Thank You and an Update on Federal DOE Funding for Accessible Educational Materials First, Thank you! Your rapid and clear call for continued support for accessible educational materials was heard by Members of Congress and had a positive impact on the FY 2011 appropriation to the Department of Education. The compelling testimonials many of you have shared with us added a depth and poignancy to the discussion that numbers alone could not convey. Your personal stories carried weight in Washington. Second, despite many key Members supporting the program, there was no specific funding appropriated for Learning Ally. This unfortunate loss of congressionally dedicated funding means that our campaign is far from over. Our efforts need to shift to the Department of Education and the decisions to be made by Secretary Duncan. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ Fiscal Year 2011's Fight Shifts Under the budget plan passed by Congress, Secretary Duncan has the discretion to hold a competition for the development, production and distribution of educational materials in accessible formats to students with visual impairments and other print disabilities. Consequently, we at Learning Ally are working closely with our supporters on Capitol Hill to encourage the Secretary to prepare and publish a competition for a national program for accessible textbooks. This priority was part of President Obama's 2011 budget plan, and we are striving to preserve this going forward. We are working to encourage the Secretary to act quickly so there will be confidence in this program's future. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ Next Year's Debate is Close at Hand While we continue to work on the FY 2011 program, we need to also turn our attention to the now emerging FY 2012 (October 1, 2011-September 30, 2012) budget and appropriations work. As in FY 2011, there will be no earmarks or dedicated funding for Learning Ally or hundreds of other valuable national programs. Our goal will be to protect the crucial ongoing funding that the Department of Education provides for accessible educational materials in the FY 2012 budget plan, and to ensure that the hundreds of thousands of students across the United States who depend on accessible materials for their education can continue to receive these tools. This debate will be ongoing throughout this spring, summer and well into autumn. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ Stay Engaged, Spread the Word We expect your voice will play a crucial role in the debate. Members of Congress need to be reminded regularly of the real human impact that this program has. As we approach key milestones, your engagement will be needed to drive this point. We need you to be an evangelist; spreading the word to your family, friends and colleagues about this program and encouraging them to sign the petition at the link below and enlist in this endeavor.We need as many advocates to sign as possible, so please ask everyone you know to join us and sign the petition. http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/rfbd/ [http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&et=1105336641650&s=23196&e=001U2rP5 AzTh0XdpdaaEP0Vf0vfMvWXsp3T6txf1N8nwPs4lAr8YfoaaJDpVfFxjdMVRxeO6XB6_nLFU3o87 IpEAHG_xfXxUhwW4f7Osy9KFy6OF4R-wBW1ho6QNMquMRw6FsiIxHjk2Cs=] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ Visit the Policy Advocates Center As we keep the pressure up on the Department of Education with our allies in Congress, we will update our Policy Advocates Center [http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&et=1105336641650&s=23196&e=001U2rP5 AzTh0W6E_nXwJgKmg8wVvwM0cng1er2weMwiFuKWGBzJGyrJYC53GSgAiuKlHxU0ZbTB0fXwaP6c FsOVMnnocCkJs1XtAnDs6jOk7_hLXHPpLCoq6QWedyjbpjpNTL3eelqeQbSvT5i84cMcX7cyB_ya e1xTzlP8duz130jarRe37l1Cg==] with developments as they occur. We will also share critical action alerts with you when key decisions are to be made. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ Thank you Your support has helped to preserve this program so far, and will be a key to its future! 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All rights reserved. LearningAlly(TM), Making reading accessible for all(TM), the "Access" icon, Recording for the Blind & DyslexicR, RFB&DR and all trademarks and service marks are owned by Learning Ally, Inc. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ Forward this email http://ui.constantcontact.com/sa/fwtf.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&m=1101553811939&ea=g cazares10 at gmail.com&a=1105336641650 This email was sent to gcazares10 at gmail.com by advocacy at learningally.org. Update Profile/Email Address http://visitor.constantcontact.com/do?p=oo&m=001K33QEjKvDIIHs3UwsZPI7A%3D%3D &se=001IyrhS4OSBPQ%3D&t=0018WK4DlChgVvCBYZ1jrRsbw%3D%3D&lang=001FCSs65SMrsI% 3D&reason=001y5KaVlBn7_Y%3D&llr=dpqs87bab Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe(TM) http://visitor.constantcontact.com/do?p=un&m=001K33QEjKvDIIHs3UwsZPI7A%3D%3D &se=001IyrhS4OSBPQ%3D&t=0018WK4DlChgVvCBYZ1jrRsbw%3D%3D&lang=001FCSs65SMrsI% 3D&reason=001y5KaVlBn7_Y%3D&llr=dpqs87bab Privacy Policy: http://ui.constantcontact.com/roving/CCPrivacyPolicy.jsp Learning Ally | 20 Roszel Road | Princeton | NJ | 08540 -- Gabriel M. Cazares, 2nd Vice President Texas Association of Blind Students - TABS (A Division of the National Federation of the Blind of Texas) www.nfb-texas.org/tabs.html Phone: 713-581-0619 "Of course, loyalty to one's friends is an important principle. But so is writing what you believe--otherwise, why bother to write at all?"-Arianna Huffington _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue May 3 13:44:05 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 09:44:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material In-Reply-To: References: <4dbf4c2d.8735e50a.7baa.ffffab0f@mx.google.com><2CF8B64A184943328903C8CADDB5A8BA@OwnerPC><1783E14CB3F84ADCBDEE81AF0CB11783@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Nicole, some of the e-texts do not allow me to write/altar them; bookmarks will not work. But I don't know how to use them in MS office 2010. So, can anyone let me know? Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:41 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material Do you find the MSWord version of bookmarks kind of cumbersome to use? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >I have jaws 12 but as you said, a huge limitation to the place mark feature > is one per document and that doesn't help much when studying since the > text > is over 20 pages per file which is a chapter. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:09 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > Also, if you have JAWS 12, and you need to mark your place just for the > moment while you go somewhere else in the document, you can use ALT, > windows > k to mark your place and windows k to return to it. I wish that FS would > allow for multiple place markers like the BrailleNote does. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ian Perrault" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:01 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > >> >> Hi All, >> A tip: If I'm reading an e-text book on my laptop with JAWS, and I don't >> want to lose my place, I mark my place by putting *****, then saving the >> Word document since the book is in Word usually, then when I want to >> reread >> it, I just do a find and hit *****. I just came up with that method on my >> own, and it's five stars, not three as JAWS says. >> Ian >> Ian >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net >> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 8:50 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >> >> Oh, maybe the website for the publisher or book will explain the topics >> in >> the book. I'll check. Some books have a website with interactive >> quizzes, >> study guides, etc. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Chris Nusbaum >> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 8:28 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >> >> Yes, you're right! So, let me give you another option. If you >> read a textbook online, usually the Web site will offer a form >> field where you can search for topics in the book. Although we >> don't use it a lot, we can get all our textbooks for class on >> either www.classzone.com or on the publisher's Web site, either >> for science and math: www.phsschool.com or for English: >> www.glencoe.com. If you're using JAWS and get your textbooks >> online, hit insert F 5 for the select a form field list. See if >> there's a "search book" or "search index" or something like that >> in the list. If so, try that! >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 17:42:34 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >> >> Chris, >> I use a computer; but as I said to find a text segment, you got >> to know the >> words exactly you're looking for. If you have a variation on it, >> that won't >> help. Plus some stuff is probably just in the index/glossary, >> like >> definitions. Often the index is not part of my e-text and even >> if it is, >> its so big that using a computer may not be practical to find it. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Chris Nusbaum >> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 3:55 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >> >> I don't know whether you use a computer or notetaker to read >> E-texts, but if you have JAWS on a computer or use a Braille-Note >> BT, you can use a find command to find a text string, or >> word/phrase in a large document like a textbook. On a >> Braille-Note, hit space with F for the find command. Then it >> will ask you, "Search forward or back?" If you want to search for >> something that you know is further into the text than you >> currently are, het f for forward, and to search for something >> before the place where you are, hit b for back. Then, it will >> prompt "Find?" Type the text string you want to search for and >> hit Enter. If it finds the string you're searching for, it will >> put your cursor under that string. If you use JAWS on your >> computer, I think the find command is Alt F3, but don't quote me >> on that. I'll have to check and get back to you on that. If >> there's someone else on the list who knows what the Find command >> on JAWS is, please let us know. Hope that helps! >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 00:31:32 -0400 >> Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material >> >> Hi all, >> >> College texts are full of words and examples. Frustrating when >> you cannot skim through especially when you need the highlights >> for a test. >> I take notes when reading. But my notes don?�t always amount to >> what the professor tells us to study for the test, if they tell >> us. >> >> So what do you do when the professor has a study guide? >> Some students take it and jot down the coresponding pages to the >> study topics and study those pages. >> How do you use it? >> Sometimes professors give a list of terms/concepts to study or a >> list of questions to guide your preparation. My communication >> professor outlined on the board what concepts we needed to know >> for our final. >> But here?�s the thing. I cannot skim the text or look up words. >> My notes may or may not have them. Even if they do, its still >> looking for a needle in a haystack when reviewing for finals! So >> I?�ve usually had to ask a reader; they act as my eyes and look >> in the index for the key words or skim for the key words or >> headings in the chapter. >> >> For me, I usually use audio whenever possible. But even with >> e-texts, I cannot skim because I don?�t know the exact phrase >> and without that the computer does Not know what to look for; >> also >> it is divided in to chapters and I cannot search across chapters. >> Another thing, how do you work with open book exams? >> Do you have a reader there and they look up any info from the >> book? That is what I?�ve done. >> Again, openbook tests let you use it as a reference tool, but >> that is hard for us. >> >> So any tips for studying or ?�skimming??would be good. How >> can you direct a reader to actually skim? Usually they will read >> too much to me rather than just the main paragraph of the topic; >> generally under the main headings I find the introduction to the >> concept and smaller headings tell you details/examples. >> >> >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma >> hb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iperrault%40hotmail.com >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue May 3 13:50:06 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 09:50:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Thank You for your Support! In-Reply-To: <1A7AC518-3402-43D5-A3D3-8BD7D0AFA3C0@gmail.com> References: <1105336641650.1101553811939.23196.6.37095025@scheduler><00bc01cc0937$50f73010$f2e59030$@panix.com> <1A7AC518-3402-43D5-A3D3-8BD7D0AFA3C0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <81A512D331CF47DBA216D2E371BC0A28@OwnerPC> They did not survey blind people. They said they held focus groups and surveys; but they did not survey us. I think they made this decission quietly. No one I know even knew they were contemplating a changed name behind closed doors! I know many special ed teachers and blind people of both groups. This was a shock when they changed names. But we all really need to write RFB. Grumbling about it will not change anything. We have to stand up as a group and tell them. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Maurice Mines Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 10:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: Thank You for your Support! I too, and must rise and ask for the same thing. I ate no debt this organization said that based on member survey material from many of the blind said they wanted blind taken out of the name. Recording for the blind and dyslexic worked fine for me. This do any key doesn't work fine for me on any level. I will tell you that from what I understand there are even rumblings within my own local chapter here in Colorado both wishing to cancel their subscriptions to save energy. My fellow Colorado Association of blind students board member, I hope you are having a meaningful discussion with this entity because I think it's a shame. As I said to Mr. Freeman earlier in a private e-mail. It's like the NAACP suddenly saying that they didn't wish to ponder a beverage of the many brave black citizens who withstood the worst of the civil rights era. In other words change the name back and I think all of us would feel a lot better. To quote our past leaders in the national Federation of the blind, it very much is respectable to be blind. Please note the opinions expressed are mine, they do not reflect the opinions of the board of the Colorado Association of blind students. Nor the opinions of the national Federation of the blind of Colorado. Also please note that I mean using dictation software, some words, phrases, and/or spellings might not be what they are supposed to be. Thank you very much for reading this. On May 2, 2011, at 8:10 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > I think we should issue an ultimatum: change your name back and we will > support. (evil grin) > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Gabriel Cazares > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 4:37 PM > To: tabs_students; nabs-l > Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Thank You for your Support! > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Learning Ally, formerly RFB&D" > Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 10:07:38 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Thank You for your Support! > To: gcazares10 at gmail.com > > Having trouble viewing this email? > Click here to view this email as a webpage. > http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=dpqs87bab&v=001JbA8pPO1z- > MhGsslJGOwOQrhHUKPKfZROcNJuT2qugDy9zjJwS0N0ZTPaco5TIEgbV2suMeaJiVt4A8bH6CsjO > n9AvQvdAzGe3dA5eNmAEwKzLcGYmH-zcpsnhbfud9vn4Ql8NC_UmQL2RZ100rfGXnfNsibLTfrzQ > lwfGCV1zzLbt_MZsJCCFX7--7PN9i5Y6j-IMJcJhRE_D66I3_dKoh3hHY5wqrdl6L3U8s_vM4lS4 > MVOIt3esAnMtPlZuSbjQYUxlW5RvJt9A2p5_bdN2hDYlBOd6IEXwJPpqM8JRCBbez-1Bpafa600u > 3Vkz5gWU9kNKGLcqx-mXKTMk3aUcVpFIGy-C7GU2esRrcVe3zwo_pdOzBsUn0_x_CabOpbXUt2BI > M2CUkbHw5D-4X-xw%3D%3D > You're receiving this email because of your relationship with Learning > Ally. > Please confirm your continued interest in receiving email from us. > http://visitor.r20.constantcontact.com/c.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&t=1105336641650.2 > 3196.123941028.2&m=1101553811939&wl=F > You only have to do this once. You may unsubscribe > http://visitor.constantcontact.com/do?p=un&m=001K33QEjKvDIIHs3UwsZPI7A%3D%3D > &se=001IyrhS4OSBPQ%3D&t=0018WK4DlChgVvCBYZ1jrRsbw%3D%3D&lang=001FCSs65SMrsI% > 3D&reason=001y5KaVlBn7_Y%3D&llr=dpqs87bab > if you no longer wish to receive our emails. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > Stay Engaged, Spread the Word > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > May 2, 2011 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > Thank You and an Update on Federal DOE Funding for Accessible Educational > Materials > > First, Thank you! Your rapid and clear call for continued support for > accessible educational materials was heard by Members of Congress and had > a > positive impact on the FY 2011 appropriation to the Department of > Education. > The compelling testimonials many of you have shared with us added a depth > and poignancy to the discussion that numbers alone could not convey. Your > personal stories carried weight in Washington. > Second, despite many key Members supporting the program, there was no > specific funding appropriated for Learning Ally. This unfortunate loss of > congressionally dedicated funding means that our campaign is far from > over. > Our efforts need to shift to the Department of Education and the decisions > to be made by Secretary Duncan. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > Fiscal Year 2011's Fight Shifts > > Under the budget plan passed by Congress, Secretary Duncan has the > discretion to hold a competition for the development, production and > distribution of educational materials in accessible formats to students > with > visual impairments and other print disabilities. > Consequently, we at Learning Ally are working closely with our supporters > on > Capitol Hill to encourage the Secretary to prepare and publish a > competition > for a national program for accessible textbooks. This priority was part of > President Obama's 2011 budget plan, and we are striving to preserve this > going forward. We are working to encourage the Secretary to act quickly so > there will be confidence in this program's future. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > Next Year's Debate is Close at Hand > > While we continue to work on the FY 2011 program, we need to also turn our > attention to the now emerging FY 2012 (October 1, 2011-September 30, 2012) > budget and appropriations work. As in FY 2011, there will be no earmarks > or > dedicated funding for Learning Ally or hundreds of other valuable > national > programs. > Our goal will be to protect the crucial ongoing funding that the > Department > of Education provides for accessible educational materials in the FY 2012 > budget plan, and to ensure that the hundreds of thousands of students > across the United States who depend on accessible materials for their > education can continue to receive these tools. This debate will be > ongoing > throughout this spring, summer and well into autumn. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > Stay Engaged, Spread the Word > > We expect your voice will play a crucial role in the debate. Members of > Congress need to be reminded regularly of the real human impact that this > program has. As we approach key milestones, your engagement will be needed > to drive this point. > We need you to be an evangelist; spreading the word to your family, > friends > and colleagues about this program and encouraging them to sign the > petition > at the link below and enlist in this endeavor.We need as many advocates to > sign as possible, so please ask everyone you know to join us and sign the > petition. > > > http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/rfbd/ > [http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&et=1105336641650&s=23196&e=001U2rP5 > AzTh0XdpdaaEP0Vf0vfMvWXsp3T6txf1N8nwPs4lAr8YfoaaJDpVfFxjdMVRxeO6XB6_nLFU3o87 > IpEAHG_xfXxUhwW4f7Osy9KFy6OF4R-wBW1ho6QNMquMRw6FsiIxHjk2Cs=] > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > Visit the Policy Advocates Center > As we keep the pressure up on the Department of Education with our allies > in > Congress, we will update our Policy Advocates Center > [http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&et=1105336641650&s=23196&e=001U2rP5 > AzTh0W6E_nXwJgKmg8wVvwM0cng1er2weMwiFuKWGBzJGyrJYC53GSgAiuKlHxU0ZbTB0fXwaP6c > FsOVMnnocCkJs1XtAnDs6jOk7_hLXHPpLCoq6QWedyjbpjpNTL3eelqeQbSvT5i84cMcX7cyB_ya > e1xTzlP8duz130jarRe37l1Cg==] > with developments as they occur. 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Cazares, > 2nd Vice President > Texas Association of Blind Students - TABS (A Division of the National > Federation of the Blind of Texas) www.nfb-texas.org/tabs.html > Phone: 713-581-0619 > "Of course, loyalty to one's friends is an important principle. But so is > writing what you believe--otherwise, why bother to write at all?"-Arianna > Huffington > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/maurice.mines%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue May 3 16:39:10 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 10:39:10 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NBA basketball In-Reply-To: <175909E5-BF1F-4277-B601-8409CA433A2F@gmail.com> References: <175909E5-BF1F-4277-B601-8409CA433A2F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yeah-they're playing the Heat in the second round, lost by 9 in their first game. I'm actually kind of pulling for them cause the Heat need to lose. On 5/3/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > Are the celtix still in? > > > On May 3, 2011, at 1:23 AM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: > >> Go sharks! * smile* >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On May 2, 2011, at 9:58 PM, Kirt Manwaring >> wrote: >> >>> So...how bout them Grizlies? ;) >>> >>> On 5/2/11, humberto wrote: >>>> Let's change the subject line now, shall we? * smile * >>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 21:35:18 -0700 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >>>> >>>>> Hey Kirt: >>>> >>>>> The Mavericks blitzed the Trailblazers so NBA is of no use to me >>>> anymore >>>>> this year. (grin) >>>> >>>>> Now if the Washington Capitals can knock off the Tampa Bay >>>> Lightning in the >>>>> NHL so we can in the end have a Capitals Canuks Stanley Cup Final >>>> .. Now >>>>> there's something to care about! :-) >>>> >>>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>>>> Of Kirt Manwaring >>>>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:18 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >>>> >>>>> Mike, >>>>> Very, very well said. Except for the bit about no ultimate >>>> meaning except >>>>> for what we make of life (which, really, is kind of beyond the >>>> scope of this >>>>> meaningless conversation), I totally agree with you. >>>>> Blindness is sometimes a pain in the ass, sometimes it really >>>> makes no >>>>> difference to life one way or another. I guess the only benefit >>>> blindness >>>>> has ever given me is the opportunity to meet some friends who I >>>> would >>>>> otherwise never have known. Other than that, if I'm weighing >>>> pros and cons >>>>> in my own life, blindness isn't really much of a good thing or a >>>> bad >>>>> thing...it's just kind of there. It's certainly not a good >>>> thing, I don't >>>>> think-but it's not really that bad either. >>>>> At any rate, there's plenty more important things to worry >>>> about...like the >>>>> NBA playoffs! :) Go Grizleys! (I kind of adopted them as my >>>> team after >>>>> they upset the spurs-can you say bandwagon fan?) >>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>> Kirt >>>> >>>>> On 5/2/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>>>> Chris: >>>> >>>>>> I agree with you. I did not, in fact, say that diversity could >>>> be >>>>>> negative although I dare say that quite a number of high school >>>> kids >>>>>> trying to "fit in" might think so. In fact, to my way of >>>> thinking, >>>>>> physical diversity is neutral. Intellectual diversity is >>>> certainly an >>>>>> advantage. As for negative diversity -- let's see -- how about >>>> the >>>>>> presence of diseases such as sickle-cell anemia? After all, the >>>> genes >>>>>> that code for this disease also confer some immunity to malaria. >>>> Yet >>>>>> few would disagree with those who seek to cure or eliminate this >>>> disease. >>>> >>>>>> Now I'm not saying blindness is a disease. It is a physical >>>> condition >>>>>> resulting from the lack of one sense -- vision. That's far from >>>> being >>>>>> a disease in my book. But I don't believe blindness confers any >>>>>> advantages, either. >>>> >>>>>> Perhaps a sentence or two about my view of life might help you >>>> to >>>>>> understand where I'm coming from -- it's a view that Jedi does >>>> not >>>>>> subscribe to. Long live diversity, eh? Anyway, I am agnostic. >>>>>> Therefore, I do not believe there is any meaning in life apart >>>> from >>>>>> the meaning we give it by our own actions. Nor do I believe >>>> there is >>>>>> an ultimate purpose to existence except insofar as we overlay it >>>> with a >>>>> gloss of meaning of our own making. >>>>>> Therefore, questions such as "why am I here? Why was I blind? >>>> What >>>>>> purpose does my blindness serve in the larger scheme of things?" >>>> have >>>>>> no answers and, in fact, make no sense to even ask. It's sort >>>> of like >>>>>> in quantum mechanics where it makes no sense to ask whether an >>>>>> electron is a wave or a particle. >>>> >>>>>> Anyway, with that world view in mind and bearing in mind that I >>>>>> subscribe to the NFB notion that with training and opportunity, >>>>>> blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical >>>> inconvenience and >>>>>> that we, the blind, are simply normal people who cannot see, I >>>> do not >>>>>> see that having blind people around confers some special >>>> blessing on >>>>>> society. Blindness is just that -- the lack of sight. I do not >>>>>> believe that it renders us privy to special insights, miraculous >>>>>> talents or capacities or special cultural predilections. I am >>>>>> therefore not committed to its preservation. Neither, on the >>>> other >>>>>> hand, am I committed to its eradication. If it happens, so be >>>> it. If >>>>>> it does not, so be it. I'm not going to worry overly-much about >>>> it >>>>>> since it won't happen in my lifetime and there will be >>>> innumerable >>>>> circumstances I cannot foresee so cannot make a binding judgment >>>> upon. >>>> >>>>>> Bottom line: I don't see how we can say that blindness is just >>>> the >>>>>> lack of eyesight while at the same time believing it confers >>>> special >>>>>> virtues or valuable traits for society. I truly do not believe >>>>>> blindness to be all that much of a muchness. Sometimes it's a >>>> pain; >>>>> sometimes it's just there. >>>>>> In my experience, it's never the catalyst for wisdom or >>>> enlightenment. >>>> >>>>>> Now that I've written this to death, on to the next issue! >>>> (smile) >>>> >>>>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum >>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 12:55 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >>>> >>>>>> Being Devil's advocate, what negativity does diversity have? >>>>>> Diversity, by definition, isn't good nor bad, but just >>>> different. >>>>>> So, what is the negative impact of diversity on... who, >>>> society? >>>> >>>>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>> >>>>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities >>>> motto) >>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Sun, 1 May 2011 21:25:10 -0700 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >>>> >>>>>> That presumes that diversity always equals benefit. You and I >>>> are >>>>>> going to have to differ on this one. >>>> >>>>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 6:45 PM >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] If the World Went Sighted.. >>>> >>>>>> I say that disability is a form of diversity, so I wouldn't want >>>> to >>>>>> erase it. >>>> >>>>>> Respectfully, >>>>>> Jedi >>>> >>>>>> Original message: >>>>>> Hello all, >>>> >>>>>> This is an interesting discussion, so I thought I'd pop in for >>>> a minute. >>>> >>>>>> This question goes, at the root of it, to how you view >>>> disability. >>>>>> If you view it as an aspect that creates diversity, then >>>> erasing it >>>>>> would be like erasing races or different languages. If you >>>> view >>>>>> disability as a disease, then logically the first response >>>> would be to >>>>> want to cure it. >>>> >>>>>> What do you guys think? >>>> >>>>>> Briley >>>>>> On Apr 27, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> >>>>>> Arielle: >>>>>> I think blindness does play a roll--in that it is just one of >>>> many >>>>>> things that make up an individual, and in a world where genetics >>>>>> would be preprogramed, it just be too perfect. >>>>>> It'd just bee too flawless--too artificial. >>>>>> I'm sure some people would want it--but a world in which >>>> blindness >>>>>> and other disabilities are completely eradicated would just be >>>> too >>>>>> artificial, almost like we literally managed to create our own >>>> world in a >>>>> way. >>>> >>>>>> Worse, it would make it a whole lot worse for any blind who >>>> were born >>>>>> cause then everyone would consider them a scientific failure so >>>> to speak. >>>>>> Of course, >>>>>> I'm hypothetically talking about a very cold world in which >>>> science >>>>>> would create people which I hope would never happen but its a >>>> good >>>>>> talking point anyway. >>>> >>>>>> Jorge >>>> >>>> >>>>>> On Apr 27, 2011, at 12:08 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>>>> We recently had a discussion about how we would react if some >>>> of our >>>>>> blind friends could become sighted, and we asked whether it >>>> would be >>>>>> reasonable for a sighted person to want to go blind. This made >>>> me >>>>>> think of an interesting, although a bit painful, question: >>>>>> Would the world be better off, worse off, or about the same if >>>>>> blindness were completely eradicated, through genetic >>>> engineering >>>>>> and/or mandatory treatment of all causes of blindness? >>>>>> The question may sound silly, but for many vision researchers, >>>>>> eradication of blindness is a real goal. But does the presence >>>> of >>>>>> blind people in our society have any benefit to the society or >>>> the world >>>>> as a whole? >>>> >>>>>> Certainly there are costs of having a small group of people in >>>>>> society who read and travel using different techniques than the >>>> rest. >>>>>> These specialized techniques have to be taught, technology has >>>> to be >>>>>> adapted to their use and negative public attitudes prevent this >>>>>> minority of people who do things differently from having full >>>> access >>>>>> to societal goods and opportunities. So would it be cheaper >>>> and less >>>>>> resource-demanding if everybody could use the same visual >>>> techniques to >>>>> accomplish life tasks? >>>>>> On the other hand, you could perhaps argue that having people >>>> who >>>>>> use different senses to do things in society is advantageous. >>>>>> Technology is forced to innovate to become usable by those who >>>> don't >>>>>> have vision as well as those who do. And conceivably, if a >>>> darkness >>>>>> plague struck the planet, it would be better for the species if >>>> some >>>>>> of its members could fully function without light. >>>> >>>>>> What do you think? Should we as a society make an effort to get >>>> rid >>>>>> of blindness? Or does blindness serve any kind of social >>>> function? >>>>>> There obviously isn't a right answer here, but it's something >>>> that, >>>>>> for better or for worse, could become relevant to us someday. >>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >>>>>> ech >>>>>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 >>>>>> 0gma >>>>>> il.com >>>> >>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >>>>>> jedi% >>>>>> 40samobile.net >>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >>>>>> Visit >>>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>> >>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>>>>> anix.com >>>> >>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>>>>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>>> anix. >>>>>> com >>>> >>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>>> ydude >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>>> anix.com >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>>> 5369%40netzero.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue May 3 20:13:12 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 03 May 2011 16:13:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China Message-ID: <4dc061f2.c76b340a.182a.07a2@mx.google.com> Hi,=20Crystal. Good=20for=20you!=20I'm=20glad=20you're=20so=20active=20in=20helping=20blin= d=20children=20 overseas=20live=20fully=20independent=20lives!=20Maybe=20a=20good=20idea=20= would=20be=20 to=20write=20up=20a=20little=20article=20about=20Bethel=20and=20the=20kids= =20there=20to=20 put=20in=20the=20Braille=20Monitor.=20=20I=20think=20by=20putting=20somethi= ng=20in=20the=20 Monitor,=20you=20would=20be=20reaching=20out=20to=20a=20lot=20of=20people=20= who=20might=20 be=20able=20and=20willing=20to=20help!=20It=20says=20in=20the=20magazine=20= that=20 articles=20for=20the=20Monitor=20can=20go=20to=20the=20editor,=20Gary=20Wun= der,=20who=20 happens=20to=20be=20on=20the=20Blind=20Talk=20list=20if=20you're=20on=20tha= t.=20=20You=20can=20 mail=20your=20article=20to:=20National=20Federation=20of=20the=20Blind,=20A= ttention=20 Gary=20Wunder.=20=20200=20East=20Wells=20Street,=20Baltimore,=20Maryland,=20= 21230.=20=20 You=20can=20also=20email=20your=20article=20to=20gwunder at nfb.org.=20=20You= =20can=20go=20 to=20www.nfb.org=20for=20more=20information.=20=20Hope=20this=20helps! P.S.=20=20You=20could=20also=20put=20an=20article=20in=20the=20Matilda=20Zi= egler=20 Magazine=20for=20the=20Blind,=20an=20independent=20magazine=20for=20the=20b= lind,=20 not=20affiliated=20with=20any=20organization=20providing=20news,=20informat= ion,=20 and=20commentary=20on=20the=20issues=20facing=20the=20blind.=20=20You=20can= =20send=20an=20 email=20to=20Ross=20Hammond,=20the=20editor=20of=20the=20Ziegler=20at=20 editor at matildaziegler.com.=20=20You=20can=20check=20out=20 www.matildaziegler.com=20to=20get=20more=20info! P.P.S.=20=20Please=20understand=20that=20I'm=20not=20affiliated=20in=20any= =20way=20with=20 neither=20the=20Monitor=20nor=20the=20Ziegler.=20=20I'm=20just=20a=20reader= =20of=20both=20 who=20thought=20these=20magazines=20might=20help=20you=20in=20your=20effort= s. Chris=20Nusbaum "A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abilit= ies=20motto) -----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Jing=20Crystal=20Wu=20=E5=90=B4=E6=99=B6=20wrote: =20Dear=20all, =20I=20am=20currently=20working=20in=20an=20orphanage=20for=20the=20blind=20= in=20Beijing.=20=20 Bethel =20Home =20has=2045=20blind=20children,=20and=20it's=20a=20NGO=20orphanage=20run=20= by=20a=20french=20 couple. =20Just =20wonder=20if=20any=20students=20will=20be=20interested=20to=20do=20intern= ship=20or=20 volunteer =20work =20in=20Beijing.=20=20You=20may=20visit =20www.bethelchina.org =20Most=20of=20the=20kids=20speak=20English=20and=20Chinese.=20=20Many=20of= =20the=20 volunteers=20are =20from =20Europe=20and=20North=20America.=20=20Too=20bad=20I=20have=20to=20return= =20to=20school=20in=20 Stockholm =20this=20summer.=20=20Hope=20any=20of=20you=20can=20support=20and=20help=20= the=20kids=20in=20 any=20way=20you =20can.=20=20Thanks. =20Sincerely, =20Crystal =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Tina=20Hansen"=20 Napster? Don't remember that. Explain, please? Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" =20----=20Original=20Message=20------ From:=20David=20Andrews=20North=20 America Phone:=20202-707-0722,=20Email:=20jdix at loc.gov BANA=20Dialogues=20about=20Braille=20at=20Spring=20Board=20Meeting The=20Braille=20Authority=20of=20North=20America=20(BANA) held=20its=20spring=20meeting=20on=20April=201=20=96=203,=202011,=20in Cincinnati,=20Ohio.=20=20This=20meeting=20was=20hosted=20by=20The Clovernook=20Center=20for=20the=20Blind=20and=20Visually Impaired=20(CCBVI),=20a=20BANA=20member=20organization. The=20Board=20Meeting=20was=20preceded=20by=20its traditional=20open=20forum=20on=20the=20evening=20of Thursday,=20March=2031,=20at=20the=20Hyatt=20Regency.=20=20This round-table=20meeting=20provided=20an=20opportunity=20for participants=20to=20learn=20more=20about=20the=20workings=20of BANA=20and=20to=20offer=20feedback=20about=20issues=20surrounding=20braille= =20and=20 its=20future. The=20BANA=20Board=20welcomed=20two=20new=20participants. Friday=20morning,=20at=20the=20opening=20session=20of=20the business=20meeting,=20Chair=20Judy=20Dixon=20introduced Kim=20McEachirn,=20Clovernook=92s=20new=20representative to=20the=20BANA=20Board.=20=20Later=20in=20the=20business meeting,=20the=20Board=20voted=20unanimously=20to=20accept the=20application=20of=20Crawford=20Technologies=20to=20join BANA=20as=20an=20associate=20member.=20=20Congratulations=20to both=20Mr.=20=20McEachirn=20and=20Crawford=20Technologies. Topics=20on=20the=20agenda=20included=20tactile=20graphics, foreign=20language=20braille,=20strategic=20planning, and=20the=20recent=20review=20of=20the=20formats=20guidelines. Pete=20Osborne,=20Chair=20of=20the=20United=20Kingdom Association=20for=20Accessible=20Formats=20(UKAAF), attended=20the=20full=20meeting=20and=20provided=20a=20helpful international=20perspective.=20=20UKAAF=20was=20formed=20in 2009=20when=20the=20Braille=20Authority=20of=20the=20United Kingdom=20merged=20with=20two=20other=20industry=20organizations. The=20Board=20participated=20in=20lengthy=20and=20thoughtful deliberations=20as=20they=20explored=20the=20evolving=20ways in=20which=20braille=20is=20produced=20and=20used.=20=20These essential=20considerations=20have=20been=20spurred=20by the=20rapid=20changes=20and=20impact=20of=20technology=20as well=20as=20the=20escalation=20of=20changes=20in=20print=20materials. The=20Board=20approved=20a=20code=20change=20recommended=20by the=20Braille=20Mathematics=20Technical=20Committee. This=20change=20to=20Rule=20XXV=20Sections=20191a(v)=20and 191b(vi)=20in=20the=20Nemeth=20code=20is=20effective=20as=20of April=203,=202011.=20=20The=20change=20=96=20which=20is=20posted=20at http://www.brailleauthority.org/nemethupdates2011/rule25/inde x.html =96 eliminates=20the=20blank=20line=20between=20a=20cell-5 heading=20and=20directions=20that=20immediately=20follow=20the=20heading. For=20additional=20information=20and=20resources,=20visit www.brailleauthority.org The=20mission=20and=20purpose=20of=20the=20Braille=20Authority of=20North=20America=20are=20to=20assure=20literacy=20for tactile=20readers=20through=20the=20standardization=20of braille=20and/or=20tactile=20graphics.=20=20BANA=20promotes and=20facilitates=20the=20use,=20teaching,=20and production=20of=20braille.=20=20It=20publishes=20rules, interprets,=20and=20renders=20opinions=20pertaining=20to braille=20in=20all=20existing=20codes.=20=20It=20deals=20with codes=20now=20in=20existence=20or=20to=20be=20developed=20in=20the future,=20in=20collaboration=20with=20other=20countries using=20English=20braille.=20=20In=20exercising=20its function=20and=20authority,=20BANA=20considers=20the effects=20of=20its=20decisions=20on=20other=20existing braille=20codes=20and=20formats;=20the=20ease=20of production=20by=20various=20methods;=20and=20acceptability=20to=20readers. _______________________________________________ blindtlk=20mailing=20list blindtlk at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20blindtlk: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dotkid. nusbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue May 3 20:13:20 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 03 May 2011 16:13:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material Message-ID: <4dc061fa.c76b340a.182a.07a8@mx.google.com> VGhhdCdzIGEgZ3JlYXQgaWRlYSEgSSdsbCB0cnkgdGhhdC4gIEp1c3QgdG8gcmVmcmVzaCBteSBt ZW1vcnksIAp3aGF0J3MgdGhlIGZpbmQgY29tbWFuZCBvbiBKQVdTIHNvIEkgY2FuIGRvIHRoYXQ/ CgpDaHJpcyBOdXNiYXVtCgoiQSBsb3NzIG9mIHNpZ2h0LCBuZXZlciBhIGxvc3Mgb2YgdmlzaW9u ISIgKENhbXAgQWJpbGl0aWVzIG1vdHRvKQoKIC0tLS0tIE9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UgLS0tLS0K RnJvbTogIklhbiBQZXJyYXVsdCIgPGlwZXJyYXVsdEBob3RtYWlsLmNvbQpUbzogIk5hdGlvbmFs 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World Went Sighted.. Message-ID: <4dc061fe.c76b340a.182a.07ab@mx.google.com> Quite the philosopher, Mike. You remind me of Dr. Jernigan, smile. I completely understand that worldview. Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" Okay, well that doesn't have to be exact. A lot of elderly people won't use the Kindle. And no, the blind won't start a whole new market, but we will certainly add to the current market as long as the products on that market are accessible. Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" Thank you, Kirt! That's what I've thought for a long, long, time! Oh, here's something for you. Don't sighted people also have to deal with the world not always caring about their every need, too? Deal with reality, that's all I ask! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: Sorry, but your message came out blank: Subject: Re: [Nabs-l] New Technology And blindness, sent on Sonday may 1, 2011 at 9:33 AM ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Nusbaum Oh!=20If=20you=20can,=20I=20would=20reccomend=20getting=20the=20upgrade=20t= o=20the=20 Apex,=20then.=20=20It's=20a=20lot=20better=20in=20most=20of=20its=20feature= s.=20=20The=20only=20 downside=20is=20that=20it=20takes=20a=20lot=20longer=20to=20reboot=20then=20= the=20mPower=20 does,=20probably=20because=20the=20Apex=20is=20computer=20technology=20and= =20the=20 mPower=20is=20PDA. Chris=20Nusbaum "A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abilit= ies=20motto) =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Jorge=20Paez=20 Hi, all. Here's an interesting, maybe somewhat philosophical question for all of you. Sorry for those of you who don't like these topics, you don't have to reply. I've always been an NFB member (since I was very little) but I was never really active in it. Oh sure, I followed some of the issues and had some oppinions, but I never really was that active in the NFB itself. Now, after I went to the NFB's Leadership and Advocacy program, I seem to have a new sense of support for the Federation and as I'm learning more, I want to be more active in it. I really am starting to understand and strongly believe in the NFB philosophy, or at least how I interpret it. So I want to ask you a threefold question: what does Federationism mean to you, what do you think the NFB philosophy is, and why are you a Federationist? I'm not going to tell you my opinion just yet, mainly because I don't really have a strong one. That's why I want to hear from you, think about your opinions, and finally decide what I believe. I look forward to hearing all of your thoughts! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue May 3 20:38:20 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 14:38:20 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: <4dc06202.c76b340a.182a.07ae@mx.google.com> References: <4dc06202.c76b340a.182a.07ae@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Chris, Of course everyone has to deal with that...but we especially as blind people need to find ways to adapt to a world that shouldn't always have to adapt to us. Best regards, Kirt On 5/3/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Thank you, Kirt! That's what I've thought for a long, long, time! > Oh, here's something for you. Don't sighted people also have to > deal with the world not always caring about their every need, > too? Deal with reality, that's all I ask! > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 22:34:49 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > To all, > Here's my take...and, because I enjoy being an argumentative > pain in > the neck, I'm going to enjoy this. :) But before I start, I > want to > make it perfectly clear that I'm absolutely for the Technology > Bill of > Rights, making new technology accessible ought to be a legal > right, > and we are at a disadvantage when technology, like the touch > screens > Ashley mentioned are being put in store checkout lines, is used. > But we need to remember we are a minority and the majority of > the > population shouldn't bend over backwards to accomodate us. While > having all new technology come to us perfectly accessible is a > laudable goal, it's probably never going to totally be realized. > Should we have the right? Absolutely. Will we ever have it > totally? > Probably not...even with the Technology bill of rights, this > dream of > Universal Design will probably never be totally realized. That > doesn't mean we don't work towards it-it just means we need to > learn > how to live in a world where there are inconveniences we have to > deal > with. We may have to stand in lines instead of using the > independent > self checkout-deal with it. We may need to get a reader if our > textbooks aren't accessible-too bad. We may need to get > assistance > using keosks in the airport-I'm terribly sorry, that's life. e > maybe > might even have to go with a trusted family member or friend when > using an ATM...what a terrible tragedy! I can't believe we're so > mistreated, abused, ignored, neglected, forgotten, and treated > like > crap by the rest of the evil sighted world that doesn't even give > a > damn about us! Life is aweful! This new technology isn't > accessible-woe is me, we're > dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed! Noone > even > cares about us! This is a terrible, terrible, no-good world we > live > in, because we need to get people to help us use touch > screens...whatever are we going to do? > Now of course that was an exhageration, and I certainly want > technology to be accessible. But rather than spend so much time > complaining about it, let's do our best to get around the > inaccessibility and live our lives! I'm all for pushing to make > this > new technology independently usable...but it's probably never > going to > totally happen, deal with it. There will always be > inconveniences and > annoyences associated with being blind-get used to it. The world > will > never perfectly cater to our every whim, get over it. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/2/11, humberto wrote: > Sorry, but your message came out blank: Subject: Re: [Nabs-l] > New > Technology And blindness, sent on Sonday may 1, 2011 at 9:33 AM > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chris Nusbaum To: National Association of Blind Students mailing > list Date sent: Sun, 01 May 2011 09:33:12 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa > 5369%40netzero.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Tue May 3 20:55:19 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 16:55:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: <4dc061f7.c76b340a.182a.07a5@mx.google.com> References: <4dc061f7.c76b340a.182a.07a5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Napster V. Riaa, in 1999 over the whole issue of music downloads. You can read more info on that here: http://www.mp3newswire.net/stories/napster.html Jorge On May 3, 2011, at 4:13 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Napster? Don't remember that. Explain, please? > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date sent: Mon, 2 May 2011 19:40:34 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Remember the brouhaha over Napster? > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Jorge Paez > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 2:25 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Chris: > Your logic is flawless. > Taking it from a business point, > it makes complete sense though. > Here's the thing: > those groups sometimes make very dumb decisions with a closed mind. > For example: can you imagine they tried to attack the sale of second hand > books? > > Like, > say you have a book and sold it to someone who really wants it, well, they > tried to classify that as a violation of copyright! law. > > > So yeah, those groups aren't always logical about their decisions. > > Jorge > > > > On May 2, 2011, at 3:55 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > > That's their argument, but it makes no sense to me. There are about 3.1 > million blind people in the country. So the authors really would be getting > * more * money from * more * customers wanting to buy and read their books, > but can't because the E-books are inaccessible and only 5 percent of books > are available in Braille. I don't get it! If they're worried about money > from sold books so much, then they should be happy that in enableing > text-to-speech on E-book readers like the Kindle, there would be more books > sold. Therefore, by enableing TTS on the Kindle, the revenue from sold > books coming into the authors would be * raised, * not lowered! See the > iPad, hint hint. > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Is it true they're not allowing it because "its a market?" > > In other words, > they wanna record text to speech engines reading books to sell as part of > mainstream sales later on and so they're not allowing it in current devices. > > > On May 1, 2011, at 9:25 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > > Partly. But we're nowhere near there yet and some Kindle books still > don't allow speech access. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 4:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Glad to have the coalition website; and did the kindle become accessible? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tina Hansen > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 7:04 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Maybe I can explain. The Reading Rights Coalition is not officially > affiliated with the NFB, but it's a consortium of organizations who > have voiced their concerns about access to the Kindle and other > mainstream electronic books. The coalition is made up of blindness > organizations as well as organizations with other disabilities that > make reading print difficult. The web site is > > www.readingrights.org > > Thanks. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma > hb%40earthl > ink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjo > rgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue May 3 22:26:30 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 16:26:30 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] what is Federationism In-Reply-To: <4dc06641.0b5d340a.4245.0825@mx.google.com> References: <4dc06641.0b5d340a.4245.0825@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Chris, My philosophy is that being blind, if you have the propper training and attitude, is just an inconvenience. Not a debilitating disease, and not some amazingly wonderful blessing-just a minor annoyance. If that's Federationism, I guess I'm a Federationist. But I think you'll be surprised how diverse the NFB is in terms of philosophy, the extent which blindness shapes members' personal identity, opinions on various issues and so forth. I think the two things that basically every real serious member of the Federation believes are (1) blindness can be a mere inconvenience and (2) blind people are able to compete on equal terms with sighted peers. I also think the majority, although not all, are in favor of legal action to make technology accessible, to one level or another. Best regards, Kirt On 5/3/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi, all. > > Here's an interesting, maybe somewhat philosophical question for > all of you. Sorry for those of you who don't like these topics, > you don't have to reply. I've always been an NFB member (since I > was very little) but I was never really active in it. Oh sure, I > followed some of the issues and had some oppinions, but I never > really was that active in the NFB itself. Now, after I went to > the NFB's Leadership and Advocacy program, I seem to have a new > sense of support for the Federation and as I'm learning more, I > want to be more active in it. I really am starting to understand > and strongly believe in the NFB philosophy, or at least how I > interpret it. So I want to ask you a threefold question: what > does Federationism mean to you, what do you think the NFB > philosophy is, and why are you a Federationist? I'm not going to > tell you my opinion just yet, mainly because I don't really have > a strong one. That's why I want to hear from you, think about > your opinions, and finally decide what I believe. I look forward > to hearing all of your thoughts! > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From agrima at nbp.org Wed May 4 00:10:31 2011 From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima) Date: Tue, 03 May 2011 19:10:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NBP-Announce: Help name NBP's braille device! Message-ID: Hello! As you may have heard, National Braille Press is developing a braille-enabled device - a combination notetaker, smart phone, and PDA. We have some possible names selected, and we'd love to have your feedback on them. Please rate the four possible names - and suggest one of your own - at the SurveyMonkey link below. And thanks for your help! http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/5QWB2KG _______________________________________________ Nbp mailing list Nbp at nbp.org PLEASE DO NOT respond to this message! It is an automated message and your query will not reach us. Send questions to orders at nbp.org . Visit us at http://www.nbp.org From wujing19861209 at hotmail.com Wed May 4 01:14:32 2011 From: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Jing_Crystal_Wu_=E5=90=B4=E6=99=B6?=) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 03:14:32 +0200 Subject: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China References: <4dc061f2.c76b340a.182a.07a2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, Thanks for your suggestions. It's a great idea. I read both magazines myself as well. I am not sure if Matilda Ziegler still exist. I received an E-mail from Ruth Davis, former editor, last year, and she told me that the Ziegler family do not want to continue to sponsor the magazine anymore. Instead, they prefer to invest the money to Yale medical center to do research on eye disease related subject. Not sure if Gregory Evanina fought over the case. I visited their headquarter office in New York when I was 19 which was in 2007. I spoke to Gary a few times and had some contacts with him. I'll try to write an article about Bethel Home later for sure. Once again, your ideas are great! Thanks. Running around the world is pretty fun but get exhausted sometime. To adjust the jet lag several times a year is not that easy. Hope to see you at the NFB convention sometime. I am still deciding whether I should go this year or next. Regards, Crystal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:13 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China Hi, Crystal. Good for you! I'm glad you're so active in helping blind children overseas live fully independent lives! Maybe a good idea would be to write up a little article about Bethel and the kids there to put in the Braille Monitor. I think by putting something in the Monitor, you would be reaching out to a lot of people who might be able and willing to help! It says in the magazine that articles for the Monitor can go to the editor, Gary Wunder, who happens to be on the Blind Talk list if you're on that. You can mail your article to: National Federation of the Blind, Attention Gary Wunder. 200 East Wells Street, Baltimore, Maryland, 21230. You can also email your article to gwunder at nfb.org. You can go to www.nfb.org for more information. Hope this helps! P.S. You could also put an article in the Matilda Ziegler Magazine for the Blind, an independent magazine for the blind, not affiliated with any organization providing news, information, and commentary on the issues facing the blind. You can send an email to Ross Hammond, the editor of the Ziegler at editor at matildaziegler.com. You can check out www.matildaziegler.com to get more info! P.P.S. Please understand that I'm not affiliated in any way with neither the Monitor nor the Ziegler. I'm just a reader of both who thought these magazines might help you in your efforts. Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jing Crystal Wu ?닸쇂 wrote: Dear all, I am currently working in an orphanage for the blind in Beijing. Bethel Home has 45 blind children, and it's a NGO orphanage run by a french couple. Just wonder if any students will be interested to do internship or volunteer work in Beijing. You may visit www.bethelchina.org Most of the kids speak English and Chinese. Many of the volunteers are from Europe and North America. Too bad I have to return to school in Stockholm this summer. Hope any of you can support and help the kids in any way you can. Thanks. Sincerely, Crystal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tina Hansen" _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com > From k7uij at panix.com Wed May 4 01:36:14 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 18:36:14 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] what is Federationism In-Reply-To: <4dc06641.0b5d340a.4245.0825@mx.google.com> References: <4dc06641.0b5d340a.4245.0825@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <006b01cc09fb$a88017b0$f9804710$@panix.com> Chris: I conceive of Federationism as the attempt to live the Federation philosophy in one's own life. It is the active espousal of NFB philosophy in word and deed. What is the Federation philosophy? Here's what I wrote on the NFB of Washington website: The real problem of blindness is not the lack of eyesight; it is the misconceptions about blindness held by society. The blind are neither especially cursed nor especially blessed; they are normal people who cannot see. With training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a physical nuisance or inconvenience. With training and opportunity, the average blind person can perform the average job in the average workplace as well as can his/her sighted colleagues. The blind are a minority within society and virtually all of the problems of blindness are those experienced by other minorities within society, e.g., discriminatory treatment and lack of acceptance as persons of equal standing with the rest of society. In essence, NFB's philosophy of blindness amounts to the knowledge that it is respectable to be blind. Additionally, we of the NFB believe that we, the blind, can adapt to the world, requiring few modifications to function effectively in the world as it is. I joined the Federation and am still a Federationist because I believe in the tenets of NFB philosophy and, having had some difficulty securing employment, because I vowed that I would do what I could to see to it that such discrimination wouldn't happen to the blind of future generations. It is my way of doing what I can to see to it that the blind achieve first-class citizenship and complete integration into society on a basis of equality with the sighted. I've always been interested in the law, especially constitutional law, and the NFB is a great way for me to play lawyer without a law degree (I've authored several Washington laws) and gives me a chance to examine in detail such concepts as discrimination, what we can and should expect from society and, perhaps more importantly, what we shouldn't expect. Mike Freeman -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:32 PM To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] what is Federationism Hi, all. Here's an interesting, maybe somewhat philosophical question for all of you. Sorry for those of you who don't like these topics, you don't have to reply. I've always been an NFB member (since I was very little) but I was never really active in it. Oh sure, I followed some of the issues and had some oppinions, but I never really was that active in the NFB itself. Now, after I went to the NFB's Leadership and Advocacy program, I seem to have a new sense of support for the Federation and as I'm learning more, I want to be more active in it. I really am starting to understand and strongly believe in the NFB philosophy, or at least how I interpret it. So I want to ask you a threefold question: what does Federationism mean to you, what do you think the NFB philosophy is, and why are you a Federationist? I'm not going to tell you my opinion just yet, mainly because I don't really have a strong one. That's why I want to hear from you, think about your opinions, and finally decide what I believe. I look forward to hearing all of your thoughts! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed May 4 01:37:13 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 21:37:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China In-Reply-To: References: <4dc061f2.c76b340a.182a.07a2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <9A6B5C33-137A-4CF4-BFFF-B35E786D8F93@gmail.com> Yep, Matilda Ziegler still exists. On May 3, 2011, at 9:14 PM, Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 wrote: > Hi Chris, > > Thanks for your suggestions. It's a great idea. I read both magazines myself as well. I am not sure if Matilda Ziegler still exist. I received an E-mail from Ruth Davis, former editor, last year, and she told me that the Ziegler family do not want to continue to sponsor the magazine anymore. Instead, they prefer to invest the money to Yale medical center to do research on eye disease related subject. Not sure if Gregory Evanina fought over the case. I visited their headquarter office in New York when I was 19 which was in 2007. > > I spoke to Gary a few times and had some contacts with him. I'll try to write an article about Bethel Home later for sure. Once again, your ideas are great! Thanks. > > Running around the world is pretty fun but get exhausted sometime. To adjust the jet lag several times a year is not that easy. Hope to see you at the NFB convention sometime. I am still deciding whether I should go this year or next. > > Regards, > Crystal > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:13 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China > > > Hi, Crystal. > > Good for you! I'm glad you're so active in helping blind children > overseas live fully independent lives! Maybe a good idea would be > to write up a little article about Bethel and the kids there to > put in the Braille Monitor. I think by putting something in the > Monitor, you would be reaching out to a lot of people who might > be able and willing to help! It says in the magazine that > articles for the Monitor can go to the editor, Gary Wunder, who > happens to be on the Blind Talk list if you're on that. You can > mail your article to: National Federation of the Blind, Attention > Gary Wunder. 200 East Wells Street, Baltimore, Maryland, 21230. > You can also email your article to gwunder at nfb.org. You can go > to www.nfb.org for more information. Hope this helps! > P.S. You could also put an article in the Matilda Ziegler > Magazine for the Blind, an independent magazine for the blind, > not affiliated with any organization providing news, information, > and commentary on the issues facing the blind. You can send an > email to Ross Hammond, the editor of the Ziegler at > editor at matildaziegler.com. You can check out > www.matildaziegler.com to get more info! > P.P.S. Please understand that I'm not affiliated in any way with > neither the Monitor nor the Ziegler. I'm just a reader of both > who thought these magazines might help you in your efforts. > > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jing Crystal Wu ?닸쇂 To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Tue, 3 May 2011 04:13:59 +0200 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China > > Dear Beth, > > I am teaching English at the center, and also doing project > consultant work. > So far, we have one mobility instructor from California, one > multiple-disability educator from France, one blind Braille > teacher, one > music teacher, and five Chinese teachers. Of course, the > orphanage have many > care-givers, administraters, fund raisers, public relation > manager and staff > members. Bethel has foster care, education and self-care > training for kids. > Bethel even has its own farm field, so the kids can help to feed > dogs, > goats, chickens, ducks. Right now, I am trying to push to open > up a job > training course; however, I can't stay in Beijing for too long. > If any of > you is interested to do job training, counciling, independence > training, I > am sure you will be very helpful in Bethel. > > I must encourage kids to learn, to live and to travel > independently. It'll > be wonderful if we can something together. My skype is > jing.wu.crystal > MSN: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com > > Sincerely, > Crystal > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Beth" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:57 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China > > > Crystal, > What can the folks at the CCB in Denver, Colorado do for the > orphanage? What can any ordinary people do to help the kids? I > am > interested in helping blind people overseas too, but not China > necessarily. But it's fascinating. Do you have Skype? Do > write me > off list at > thebluesisloose at gmail.com > > Thank you, > Beth Taurasi > > On 5/2/11, Jing Crystal Wu ?닸쇂 > wrote: > Dear all, > > I am currently working in an orphanage for the blind in Beijing. > Bethel > Home > has 45 blind children, and it's a NGO orphanage run by a french > couple. > Just > wonder if any students will be interested to do internship or > volunteer > work > in Beijing. You may visit > www.bethelchina.org > > Most of the kids speak English and Chinese. Many of the > volunteers are > from > Europe and North America. Too bad I have to return to school in > Stockholm > this summer. Hope any of you can support and help the kids in > any way you > can. Thanks. > > Sincerely, > Crystal > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tina Hansen" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Cc: "Correspondence Committee Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:51 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Food for Thought: Presenting Our Message as > Theater > > > Not long ago, I learned that the Braille Institute in Los > Angeles, > California, produced a series of recordings called Sound > Solutions. They > present tools and techniques for coping with blindness and > vision loss > in > a number of dramatic formats. I thought: it might be cool if we > could do > that. We do have a play at our National convention, but that's > about it. > > I'm not sure if I agree with everything they present, but I > still think > we > > can learn from it. To get an idea of what they do, you can go > to > > http://www.airsla.org/soundsolutions.asp > > The episodes cover topics such as: home management, coping > skills, and > many other topics, and with one exception, most of them are 30 > minutes > or > less. > > I'm presenting this for what it's worth, since I know that we > have some > creative people out there, and I also know that if we can > present our > message in a creative way, it might interest the younger > generation. > Check > > it out. Thanks. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing198 > 61209%40hotmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesi > sloose%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing198 > 61209%40hotmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From trillian551 at gmail.com Wed May 4 01:38:59 2011 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 21:38:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China In-Reply-To: References: <4dc061f2.c76b340a.182a.07a2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Crystal, It's Mary Fernandez we met when you went to The atlanta convention. The Matilda Ziegler magazine does still exist. One of my friends is a writer for it. I'll get in touch with you and see if I can help in anyway. I'm always looking for great experiences for summers, so hopefully I can help. Talk toyou soon. Mary On 5/3/11, Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 wrote: > Hi Chris, > > Thanks for your suggestions. It's a great idea. I read both magazines myself > as well. I am not sure if Matilda Ziegler still exist. I received an E-mail > from Ruth Davis, former editor, last year, and she told me that the Ziegler > family do not want to continue to sponsor the magazine anymore. Instead, > they prefer to invest the money to Yale medical center to do research on eye > disease related subject. Not sure if Gregory Evanina fought over the case. I > visited their headquarter office in New York when I was 19 which was in > 2007. > > I spoke to Gary a few times and had some contacts with him. I'll try to > write an article about Bethel Home later for sure. Once again, your ideas > are great! Thanks. > > Running around the world is pretty fun but get exhausted sometime. To adjust > the jet lag several times a year is not that easy. Hope to see you at the > NFB convention sometime. I am still deciding whether I should go this year > or next. > > Regards, > Crystal > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Nusbaum" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:13 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China > > > Hi, Crystal. > > Good for you! I'm glad you're so active in helping blind children > overseas live fully independent lives! Maybe a good idea would be > to write up a little article about Bethel and the kids there to > put in the Braille Monitor. I think by putting something in the > Monitor, you would be reaching out to a lot of people who might > be able and willing to help! It says in the magazine that > articles for the Monitor can go to the editor, Gary Wunder, who > happens to be on the Blind Talk list if you're on that. You can > mail your article to: National Federation of the Blind, Attention > Gary Wunder. 200 East Wells Street, Baltimore, Maryland, 21230. > You can also email your article to gwunder at nfb.org. You can go > to www.nfb.org for more information. Hope this helps! > P.S. You could also put an article in the Matilda Ziegler > Magazine for the Blind, an independent magazine for the blind, > not affiliated with any organization providing news, information, > and commentary on the issues facing the blind. You can send an > email to Ross Hammond, the editor of the Ziegler at > editor at matildaziegler.com. You can check out > www.matildaziegler.com to get more info! > P.P.S. Please understand that I'm not affiliated in any way with > neither the Monitor nor the Ziegler. I'm just a reader of both > who thought these magazines might help you in your efforts. > > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jing Crystal Wu ?닸쇂 To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Tue, 3 May 2011 04:13:59 +0200 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China > > Dear Beth, > > I am teaching English at the center, and also doing project > consultant work. > So far, we have one mobility instructor from California, one > multiple-disability educator from France, one blind Braille > teacher, one > music teacher, and five Chinese teachers. Of course, the > orphanage have many > care-givers, administraters, fund raisers, public relation > manager and staff > members. Bethel has foster care, education and self-care > training for kids. > Bethel even has its own farm field, so the kids can help to feed > dogs, > goats, chickens, ducks. Right now, I am trying to push to open > up a job > training course; however, I can't stay in Beijing for too long. > If any of > you is interested to do job training, counciling, independence > training, I > am sure you will be very helpful in Bethel. > > I must encourage kids to learn, to live and to travel > independently. It'll > be wonderful if we can something together. My skype is > jing.wu.crystal > MSN: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com > > Sincerely, > Crystal > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Beth" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:57 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China > > > Crystal, > What can the folks at the CCB in Denver, Colorado do for the > orphanage? What can any ordinary people do to help the kids? I > am > interested in helping blind people overseas too, but not China > necessarily. But it's fascinating. Do you have Skype? Do > write me > off list at > thebluesisloose at gmail.com > > Thank you, > Beth Taurasi > > On 5/2/11, Jing Crystal Wu ?닸쇂 > wrote: > Dear all, > > I am currently working in an orphanage for the blind in Beijing. > Bethel > Home > has 45 blind children, and it's a NGO orphanage run by a french > couple. > Just > wonder if any students will be interested to do internship or > volunteer > work > in Beijing. You may visit > www.bethelchina.org > > Most of the kids speak English and Chinese. Many of the > volunteers are > from > Europe and North America. Too bad I have to return to school in > Stockholm > this summer. Hope any of you can support and help the kids in > any way you > can. Thanks. > > Sincerely, > Crystal > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tina Hansen" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Cc: "Correspondence Committee Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:51 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Food for Thought: Presenting Our Message as > Theater > > > Not long ago, I learned that the Braille Institute in Los > Angeles, > California, produced a series of recordings called Sound > Solutions. They > present tools and techniques for coping with blindness and > vision loss > in > a number of dramatic formats. I thought: it might be cool if we > could do > that. We do have a play at our National convention, but that's > about it. > > I'm not sure if I agree with everything they present, but I > still think > we > > can learn from it. To get an idea of what they do, you can go > to > > http://www.airsla.org/soundsolutions.asp > > The episodes cover topics such as: home management, coping > skills, and > many other topics, and with one exception, most of them are 30 > minutes > or > less. > > I'm presenting this for what it's worth, since I know that we > have some > creative people out there, and I also know that if we can > present our > message in a creative way, it might interest the younger > generation. > Check > > it out. Thanks. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing198 > 61209%40hotmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesi > sloose%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing198 > 61209%40hotmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory University 2012 P.O. Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. 30322 Phone: 732-857-7004 "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it." Terry Pratchett From nabs.president at gmail.com Wed May 4 02:30:25 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 20:30:25 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindtlk] FW: Blindness in the News In-Reply-To: <20110502015254.2190.91563@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> References: <20110502015254.2190.91563@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Wow! If my whole Ph.D. plan doesn't work out, it's good to know I can go to a school to make rugs, mufflers and caps all day. And they have free food? Arielle On 5/1/11, Jedi wrote: > The best story was the one about the wedding. But really and truly, > these stories, when taken together, paint a rather bleak picture of > blind existance. > > Respectfully Submitted > > Original message: >> Hi, everyone. > >> Here are some blindness-related news stories from the past few >> days you all might be interested in. Enjoy! > >> Chris Nusbaum > >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > >> ---- Original Message ------ >> From: "Roberthansen1970 at gmail.com" > Subject: [Blindtlk] FW: Blindness in the News >> Date sent: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:23:51 -0700 (PDT) > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "Robert Hansen" > Sent: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:12:57 Pacific Daylight Time >> To: "roberthansen1970 at gmail.com" >> ,"conibodyworks at gmail.com" >> ,"don.gillmore at gmail.com" >> > Subject: FW: Blindness in the News > > > >> From: crisintern >> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 2:07 PM >> To: LIGHTHOUSE; zapemantus at earthlink.net; randyvirden at att.net >> Subject: Blindness in the News > >> Blindness in the News >> April 28, 2011 > > > > >> 1. Company paints word pictures of the wedding for the visually >> impaired > >> The Globe and Mail > >> April 27, 2011 > > > >> 2. Lack of funding may spell end of classes for visually >> impaired > >> Daily News > >> April 25, 2011 > > > >> 3. Marine Drive crossings unsafe, say vision impaired > >> BC Local News > >> April 27, 2011 > > > >> 4. New device puts vision impaired in the picture > >> Physorg > >> April 28, 2011 > > > >> 1. Company paints word pictures of the wedding for the visually >> impaired > > > >> ["Nobody puts on a show like the Royal Family": A member of the >> household cavalry rides down the Mall adorned in Union flags >> ahead of Friday's Royal wedding. | Reuters] > > > > > >> TORONTO - From Wednesday's Globe and Mail > > > >> Feast your ears on this: A Toronto-based media company will >> provide a live described-video broadcast of the royal wedding so >> that blind and low-sighted people across the country can enjoy >> all the pomp and pageantry of the big day. > > > >> "An event like the royal wedding is something that we think >> should be accessible to all Canadians," says David Errington, >> president of Accessible Media Inc. > > > >> "It's the first time that any event of this magnitude has ever >> been DV'd live," says producer Simone Cupid. > > > >> Described video is much different than colour commentary: It's an >> art form unto itself, especially when done live, Cupid says. > > > >> "A colour commentator offers interesting facts and details, and >> where we are and some history about that place, whereas we're >> trying to fill in the gaps for somebody who doesn't have the >> advantage of sight," she says. "It's our job to fill in the >> crowd's expression when [Kate Middleton] comes out of the >> carriage, her mother's expression the first time she sees her in >> her wedding dress, William when he sees her coming down the >> aisle, the frescoes that are painted on the ceiling of the >> abbey." > > > >> The two "describers," Sarah Mennell and Ruth Barrett, were chosen >> after an audition in which they described footage of the 1981 >> wedding of Prince Charles and Lady Diana Spencer. > > > >> They are now busy researching everything from who will be in the >> audience to the type of horses that will be pulling Middleton's >> carriage. > > > >> "That's where the art comes in, is what's worth describing and >> what isn't," Mennell says. "It's a question of learning to pick >> out very quickly what you're seeing and what you want to convey >> to an audience." > > > >> They are also learning to abide by the cardinal rule of described >> video: "We refrain from using any turn of phrase or word that >> pertains to sight," Cupid says. "So we would never say something >> like, 'William looks at his bride,' because all you're doing is >> reminding your audience that they can't look and they can't see." > > > >> There is a huge amount of hype surrounding the wedding, which is >> guaranteed to be a massive spectacle, and describing it live to a >> visually impaired audience is sure to be a massive challenge, >> Barrett says. But it's also going to be a fun one. > > > >> "Nobody puts on a show like the Royal Family," she says. > > > >> The broadcast will be available on The Accessible Channel - >> TACtv. > > > >> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/company-paints-word-pictures- >> of-the-wedding-for-the-visually-impaired/article1999475/ > > > >> 2. Lack of funding may spell end of classes for visually >> impaired > > > >> VAN NUYS: Lack of funding may shut down campus for visually >> impaired. > > > >> Sarah Greenseid contentedly worked her yarn on a recent morning, >> her perpetual smile not entirely masking the anxiety felt by the >> visually impaired 99-year-old. > > > >> "It's really too bad, the possibility of the school not >> continuing," Greenseid said during a textile arts class at the >> Van Nuys School for the Blind, located in a rented classroom >> behind St. Andrew's Lutheran Church. "It's a very important >> part of everyone's life to have a place to come to where we can >> share our same problems, interact and still have a class. > > > >> "I will be sad if it doesn't continue." > > > >> As the Daily News reported in 2010, the school, also known as >> Visually Handicapped Adults of the Valley, is in a month-to-month >> struggle to keep offering the two classes it's managed to sustain >> this year. If the money isn't raised to cover classroom rental, >> the 39-year-old operation will have to close on May 19. > > > >> The main reason for the school's dire financial straits is the >> loss of its annual $75,000 Los Angeles Community Development >> Department grant, due to budget cutbacks and a restructuring of >> the agency's qualification criteria. > > > >> Fundraising campaigns have kept the school going, and there are >> last-ditch efforts to stave off closure. > > > >> Ophthalmologists Kerry Assil and Thomas Tooma have each donated >> $6,000 Lasik surgeries to be raffled off for the benefit of >> Retinitis Pigmentosa International, the school's parent >> organization, named for a genetic eye condition that leads to >> incurable blindness. > > > >> Each $25 donated will earn an entry in the raffle. Other details >> are at www.rpinternational.org. > > > >> "We hope that the donation from NVision Laser Eye Centers will >> help RPI reach its financial goals to help save the Van Nuys >> School for the Blind because its program provides training for >> the social, emotional and physical implications related to losing >> one's vision," Tooma said in an emailed statement. > > > >> "It is their lifeline to the light," Tooma continued. "Without >> that school, they are in the dark. That darkness is interrupted >> for at least 48 hours during the week when they go to the school. >> It also provides them lunch and they are even sent home with >> food." > > > >> Back at the St. Andrew's campus, close to a dozen visually >> impaired people were diligently making their rugs, mufflers and >> caps. > > > >> "I've been coming here for nine years; I also go to ceramics on >> Monday," said Patricia O'Connor of West Hills, who was creating a >> colorful wall hanging. "It's almost like a family to us, we've >> been meeting here for so long and we enjoy it so much. > > > >> "It gives people who have vision problems something really >> worthwhile to do, and we can see the benefits of our own work." > > > >> The school's search for a less-expensive venue has, so far, >> proven fruitless. The church is not unsympathetic, but has its >> own funding needs and rents out its campus to other >> organizations, including a Montessori preschool, to make ends >> meet. > > > >> "Our people are low-vision and many of them completely blind, so >> it's tricky to find another place for them," noted Laura Carlone, >> the school's site coordinator. "Here we have access to a kitchen >> and the run of the place, along with the preschool." > > > >> For Greenseid, who began volunteering at the school 29 years ago >> and became a student when her eyesight started to fail, the >> weekly class has become an important part of her independent >> existence. > > > >> "It keeps me busy," the Sherman Oaks nonagenarian said. "I do my >> own cooking, bookkeeping, banking and some shopping. My >> lifestyle is dependent on doing as much as I can as often as I >> can. Coming here is one of my very high priorities. > > > >> "Every day that I come here is important," Greenseid added. "I >> relate to the students and it's very rewarding. It's a way from >> them to get out of their homes." > > > >> http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_17925739 > > > > > >> 3. Marine Drive crossings unsafe, say vision impaired > > > >> [EyeDeal_4698.jpg] > > > >> A group of vision-impaired West Vancouver residents are sounding >> the alarm on the district's pedestrian crossings. > > > >> Eye Deal, a four-year-old association with 35 members, is >> concerned about the allotted time for pedestrians at the >> municipality's crossing, particularly the lights along Marine >> Drive. > > > >> "Our fear is the vision impaired do not have the time to cross >> before the lights change," said Blair Baillie, the association's >> honorary secretary. > > > >> Even with his sight, Baillie said, he sometimes finds it >> difficult to make it to the other side before the flashing hand >> appears. > > > >> In addition, not all the crossings have sound indicators to let >> the blind and vision impaired know when it's safe to leave the >> sidewalk, he noted. > > > >> These factors make vision impaired people nervous, Baillie said. >> Often they'll rely on sighted pedestrians but it's not always an >> option, he said. > > > >> "It just seems to me there are a bunch of things we should and >> could be doing," Baillie said. > > >> The organization has approached the district before with its >> concerns. This time they're taking them to the engineers. > > >> The district's pedestrian-timed signals are set up to allow >> people one second to cover one to 1.2 metres. If anything, the >> time allotment is generous compared to other municipalities, said >> Raymond Fung, the district's director of engineering and >> transportation. > > > >> There is a general misunderstanding regarding what each signal >> means, he said. The walk sign indicates when one can safely >> leave the sidewalk, while the hand requires one to stay on the >> curb - it does not indicate a person should already be across the >> street. > > >> Between 11th and 19th along Marine Drive, five of the eight >> traffic lights have audible pedestrian signals. The district is >> adding the beepers as it upgrades intersections, Fung said. > >> The municipality has an accessibility and inclusion policy. >> Recommendations from the Advisory Committee for Disability - such >> as fitting audible walk signs, creating accessible transit >> shelters and insuring grades are suitable for people in >> wheelchairs to board busses - have been adopted over the years. > > >> Creating intersections that facilitate pedestrians' requirements >> and traffic follow is always juggling act, Fung said. > > >> "We have to balance the needs," he said. > > > >> Eye Deal > > >> Eye Deal aims to spotlight all issues affecting visually impaired >> people in the district. The association recently extended its >> membership to include all age groups. It organizes everything >> from transportation to outings downtown to supplying talking >> books to members to information sessions. "We are looking for >> more volunteers," Baillie said. "There are more things we would >> like to do." > > > >> http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/120808764.html > > > > > >> 4. New device puts vision impaired in the picture > > > >> (PhysOrg.com) -- Visually impaired people may soon have greater >> access to graphical information thanks to a new device developed >> by Monash University's Faculty of Information and Technology. > > > >> The device, called GraVVITAS, is a standard tablet PC with touch >> screen technology that uses vibration and sounds to guide the >> visually impaired user around a diagram. > > > >> It is designed to enable the user to build a picture of the >> entire graphic in their mind. > > > >> Currently, visually impaired students are using tactile diagrams >> to understand graphics. These raised shapes and textures are >> produced on a particular type of paper by special purpose >> printers, known as embossers. This method can prove to be >> extremely costly and can take months to produce a textbook. > > > >> The Faculty of Information and Technology's Professor Kim >> Marriott and PhD student Cagatay Goncu are working with Vision >> Australia to develop the new technology, that will make accessing >> diagrams for visually impaired students easier. > > > >> "The idea stemmed from a visually impaired student that I had >> years ago in a unit that was very diagrammatic," Professor >> Marriott said. > > > >> "This particular student had major problems understanding the >> diagrams using the methods that were available to them at the >> time. We wanted to try to increase accessibility to diagrams and >> graphics in educational material, which is a huge issue for the >> visually impaired." > > > >> The device, which is currently a prototype, has small external >> vibrating motors that attach to the user's fingers. These motors >> buzz when an object displayed on the screen is touched. > > > >> Cagatay Goncu said voice prompts and sounds also help to guide >> the user to read the diagram. > > > >> "The basic idea is to guide the user to find the object by using >> sound. Touching the object causes the sound to stop and a voice >> explains what that object is and any other information associated >> with it," Mr. Goncu said. > > > >> "If it's something on the left side, you will hear something in >> your left ear and vice-versa." > > > >> Developing the technology has involved extensive testing with >> visually impaired volunteers, which has allowed researchers to >> have a better understanding of how they read diagrams. > > > >> The next stage of development will involve collaborating with >> haptic feedback specialists from the Faculty of Engineering who >> will further refine the touch technology associated with the >> device. > > > >> http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-04-device-vision-impaired-pictur >> e.html > > > > >> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or >> entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and >> privileged material. Unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or >> distribution is prohibited. If you receive this >> material/information in error, please contact the sender and >> destroy the material/information. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From wujing19861209 at hotmail.com Wed May 4 03:03:01 2011 From: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Jing_Crystal_Wu_=E5=90=B4=E6=99=B6?=) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 05:03:01 +0200 Subject: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China References: <4dc061f2.c76b340a.182a.07a2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Dear Mary, Are you still in New Jersey? I think we added each other on Skype. Great, if you want to experience something new, I have loads of ideas. haha Don't scared, it won't kill you. Look forward to talk to you. Crystal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Fernandez" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 3:38 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China > Hi Crystal, > It's Mary Fernandez we met when you went to The atlanta convention. > The Matilda Ziegler magazine does still exist. One of my friends is a > writer for it. > I'll get in touch with you and see if I can help in anyway. I'm always > looking for great experiences for summers, so hopefully I can help. > Talk toyou soon. > Mary > > On 5/3/11, Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 wrote: >> Hi Chris, >> >> Thanks for your suggestions. It's a great idea. I read both magazines >> myself >> as well. I am not sure if Matilda Ziegler still exist. I received an >> E-mail >> from Ruth Davis, former editor, last year, and she told me that the >> Ziegler >> family do not want to continue to sponsor the magazine anymore. Instead, >> they prefer to invest the money to Yale medical center to do research on >> eye >> disease related subject. Not sure if Gregory Evanina fought over the >> case. I >> visited their headquarter office in New York when I was 19 which was in >> 2007. >> >> I spoke to Gary a few times and had some contacts with him. I'll try to >> write an article about Bethel Home later for sure. Once again, your ideas >> are great! Thanks. >> >> Running around the world is pretty fun but get exhausted sometime. To >> adjust >> the jet lag several times a year is not that easy. Hope to see you at the >> NFB convention sometime. I am still deciding whether I should go this >> year >> or next. >> >> Regards, >> Crystal >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:13 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China >> >> >> Hi, Crystal. >> >> Good for you! I'm glad you're so active in helping blind children >> overseas live fully independent lives! Maybe a good idea would be >> to write up a little article about Bethel and the kids there to >> put in the Braille Monitor. I think by putting something in the >> Monitor, you would be reaching out to a lot of people who might >> be able and willing to help! It says in the magazine that >> articles for the Monitor can go to the editor, Gary Wunder, who >> happens to be on the Blind Talk list if you're on that. You can >> mail your article to: National Federation of the Blind, Attention >> Gary Wunder. 200 East Wells Street, Baltimore, Maryland, 21230. >> You can also email your article to gwunder at nfb.org. You can go >> to www.nfb.org for more information. Hope this helps! >> P.S. You could also put an article in the Matilda Ziegler >> Magazine for the Blind, an independent magazine for the blind, >> not affiliated with any organization providing news, information, >> and commentary on the issues facing the blind. You can send an >> email to Ross Hammond, the editor of the Ziegler at >> editor at matildaziegler.com. You can check out >> www.matildaziegler.com to get more info! >> P.P.S. Please understand that I'm not affiliated in any way with >> neither the Monitor nor the Ziegler. I'm just a reader of both >> who thought these magazines might help you in your efforts. >> >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jing Crystal Wu ?닸쇂> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Tue, 3 May 2011 04:13:59 +0200 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China >> >> Dear Beth, >> >> I am teaching English at the center, and also doing project >> consultant work. >> So far, we have one mobility instructor from California, one >> multiple-disability educator from France, one blind Braille >> teacher, one >> music teacher, and five Chinese teachers. Of course, the >> orphanage have many >> care-givers, administraters, fund raisers, public relation >> manager and staff >> members. Bethel has foster care, education and self-care >> training for kids. >> Bethel even has its own farm field, so the kids can help to feed >> dogs, >> goats, chickens, ducks. Right now, I am trying to push to open >> up a job >> training course; however, I can't stay in Beijing for too long. >> If any of >> you is interested to do job training, counciling, independence >> training, I >> am sure you will be very helpful in Bethel. >> >> I must encourage kids to learn, to live and to travel >> independently. It'll >> be wonderful if we can something together. My skype is >> jing.wu.crystal >> MSN: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com >> >> Sincerely, >> Crystal >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Beth" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:57 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China >> >> >> Crystal, >> What can the folks at the CCB in Denver, Colorado do for the >> orphanage? What can any ordinary people do to help the kids? I >> am >> interested in helping blind people overseas too, but not China >> necessarily. But it's fascinating. Do you have Skype? Do >> write me >> off list at >> thebluesisloose at gmail.com >> >> Thank you, >> Beth Taurasi >> >> On 5/2/11, Jing Crystal Wu ?닸쇂 >> wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> I am currently working in an orphanage for the blind in Beijing. >> Bethel >> Home >> has 45 blind children, and it's a NGO orphanage run by a french >> couple. >> Just >> wonder if any students will be interested to do internship or >> volunteer >> work >> in Beijing. You may visit >> www.bethelchina.org >> >> Most of the kids speak English and Chinese. Many of the >> volunteers are >> from >> Europe and North America. Too bad I have to return to school in >> Stockholm >> this summer. Hope any of you can support and help the kids in >> any way you >> can. Thanks. >> >> Sincerely, >> Crystal >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tina Hansen" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Cc: "Correspondence Committee Mailing List" >> > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:51 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Food for Thought: Presenting Our Message as >> Theater >> >> >> Not long ago, I learned that the Braille Institute in Los >> Angeles, >> California, produced a series of recordings called Sound >> Solutions. They >> present tools and techniques for coping with blindness and >> vision loss >> in >> a number of dramatic formats. I thought: it might be cool if we >> could do >> that. We do have a play at our National convention, but that's >> about it. >> >> I'm not sure if I agree with everything they present, but I >> still think >> we >> >> can learn from it. To get an idea of what they do, you can go >> to >> >> http://www.airsla.org/soundsolutions.asp >> >> The episodes cover topics such as: home management, coping >> skills, and >> many other topics, and with one exception, most of them are 30 >> minutes >> or >> less. >> >> I'm presenting this for what it's worth, since I know that we >> have some >> creative people out there, and I also know that if we can >> present our >> message in a creative way, it might interest the younger >> generation. >> Check >> >> it out. Thanks. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing198 >> 61209%40hotmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesi >> sloose%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing198 >> 61209%40hotmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > President: Georgia Association of Blind Students > Emory University 2012 > P.O. Box 123056 > Atlanta Ga. > 30322 > Phone: 732-857-7004 > > "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much > rather you weren't doing it." > Terry Pratchett > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com > From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Wed May 4 03:03:17 2011 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 21:03:17 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] what is Federationism In-Reply-To: <006b01cc09fb$a88017b0$f9804710$@panix.com> References: <4dc06641.0b5d340a.4245.0825@mx.google.com> <006b01cc09fb$a88017b0$f9804710$@panix.com> Message-ID: I've made this point many times before, but it's been a while; perhaps there are new subscribers who haven't heard it yet. I think Mike's characterization of federation philosophy is accurate, and there's a lot worth championing in that way of understanding blindness, but there's also, in my opinion, a serious inconsistency. Mike wrote, virtually all of the problems of blindness are those experienced by other minorities within society, e.g., discriminatory treatment and lack of acceptance as persons of equal standing with the rest of society. Mike also wrote, Additionally, we of the NFB believe that we, the blind, can adapt to the world, requiring few modifications to function effectively in the world as it is. I don't think this is quite write. It seems to me federationism not only suggests that we can adapt to the world as it is, but that we ought to adapt to the world as it is. And this is the aspect of federationism I think is problematic and inconsistent. My question is: why not adapt to the discrimination and unequal treatment? What I would argue is that designing products, services, institutions, etc in such a way that they are inaccessible is a form of discrimination. So federationism requires 1) that we stand up and resist discrimination and 2) that we accept and adapt to discrimination, and this is inconsistent. One could avoid the inconsistency by defining discrimination narrowly. You might say that discrimination requires intent and that badly designing various products, services, etc is not done with discriminatory intent, and thus does not qualify as discrimination. I could concede this point, but then I'd argue that recognizing these things as inaccessible and than failing to correct them is discrimination. It conceivably wasn't a discriminatory intention that led builders of the Canadian Parliament to fail to include enough women's washrooms. There weren't that many women in the building, and they certainly weren't sitting in the House of Commons, so there was no need to build washrooms for them. But when women did begin to be elected, failing to build the washrooms would be discriminatory. Nor was building the washrooms a matter of accommodating the special needs of women, doing so was required as a matter of justice, it was the correction of a flaw in the initial design. I think the same argument applies when it comes to altering the world to make it more accessible for blind people. Most things are designed under the assumption that they will be used by sighted rather than blind people. To design things in this way is wrong, just as it is wrong to design Parliament under the assumption that only men will use the washrooms. You could challenge me on what I mean by inaccessible, and here's another place where I suspect I clash with federation philosophy. A blind person shouldn't have to undergo significant blindness training in order to function in the world. She should absolutely have the opportunity to acquire such training, but she shouldn't be condemned to a life of poverty and isolation if she fails to receive such training. We should not be fighting for a world that only well-trained and qualified blind people can adapt to; we should be fighting for one where as many people as possible, with the widest variety of skills as possible, can flourish. This is an ideal; it's not a place we should ever expect to reach, but we should nevertheless strive to achieve it. To simply adapt to the world as it exists is to accept injustice and discrimination. Apologies for digressing from the intent of the original question. Cheers, Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] what is Federationism > Chris: > > I conceive of Federationism as the attempt to live the Federation > philosophy > in one's own life. It is the active espousal of NFB philosophy in word > and > deed. > > What is the Federation philosophy? Here's what I wrote on the NFB of > Washington website: > > The real problem of blindness is not the lack of eyesight; it is the > misconceptions about blindness held by society. > The blind are neither especially cursed nor especially blessed; they are > normal people who cannot see. > With training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a > physical nuisance or inconvenience. > With training and opportunity, the average blind person can perform the > average job in the average workplace as well as can his/her sighted > colleagues. > The blind are a minority within society and virtually all of the problems > of > blindness are those experienced by other minorities within society, e.g., > discriminatory treatment and lack of acceptance as persons of equal > standing > with the rest of society. > In essence, NFB's philosophy of blindness amounts to the knowledge that it > is respectable to be blind. > > Additionally, we of the NFB believe that we, the blind, can adapt to the > world, requiring few modifications to function effectively in the world as > it is. > > I joined the Federation and am still a Federationist because I believe in > the tenets of NFB philosophy and, having had some difficulty securing > employment, because I vowed that I would do what I could to see to it that > such discrimination wouldn't happen to the blind of future generations. > It > is my way of doing what I can to see to it that the blind achieve > first-class citizenship and complete integration into society on a basis > of > equality with the sighted. I've always been interested in the law, > especially constitutional law, and the NFB is a great way for me to play > lawyer without a law degree (I've authored several Washington laws) and > gives me a chance to examine in detail such concepts as discrimination, > what > we can and should expect from society and, perhaps more importantly, what > we > shouldn't expect. > > Mike Freeman > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:32 PM > To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org > Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] what is Federationism > > Hi, all. > > Here's an interesting, maybe somewhat philosophical question for all of > you. > Sorry for those of you who don't like these topics, you don't have to > reply. > I've always been an NFB member (since I was very little) but I was never > really active in it. Oh sure, I followed some of the issues and had some > oppinions, but I never really was that active in the NFB itself. Now, > after > I went to the NFB's Leadership and Advocacy program, I seem to have a new > sense of support for the Federation and as I'm learning more, I want to be > more active in it. I really am starting to understand and strongly > believe > in the NFB philosophy, or at least how I interpret it. So I want to ask > you > a threefold question: what does Federationism mean to you, what do you > think > the NFB philosophy is, and why are you a Federationist? I'm not going to > tell you my opinion just yet, mainly because I don't really have a strong > one. That's why I want to hear from you, think about your opinions, and > finally decide what I believe. I look forward to hearing all of your > thoughts! > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > From clb5590 at gmail.com Wed May 4 03:20:07 2011 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 23:20:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China In-Reply-To: References: <4dc061f2.c76b340a.182a.07a2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I think an article would be great. A publication that is on a smaller scale is our Student Slate. So, an article for that might not be as time consuming, and it is more specific to students. So, if you want to start somewhere, that is a great option. You can email me offlist if you are interested in writing an article for The Slate. I think it is great that you are doing international work! I know that sometimes I forget that blind people exist outside of the U.S. and while that sounds foolish, I think it is easy for us to get caught up in our own culture and to not be thankful for the ways Americans have access that many blind people in other countries have not yet gained. Cindy On 5/3/11, Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 wrote: > Dear Mary, > > Are you still in New Jersey? I think we added each other on Skype. Great, if > you want to experience something new, I have loads of ideas. haha Don't > scared, it won't kill you. > > Look forward to talk to you. > > Crystal > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mary Fernandez" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 3:38 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China > > >> Hi Crystal, >> It's Mary Fernandez we met when you went to The atlanta convention. >> The Matilda Ziegler magazine does still exist. One of my friends is a >> writer for it. >> I'll get in touch with you and see if I can help in anyway. I'm always >> looking for great experiences for summers, so hopefully I can help. >> Talk toyou soon. >> Mary >> >> On 5/3/11, Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 wrote: >>> Hi Chris, >>> >>> Thanks for your suggestions. It's a great idea. I read both magazines >>> myself >>> as well. I am not sure if Matilda Ziegler still exist. I received an >>> E-mail >>> from Ruth Davis, former editor, last year, and she told me that the >>> Ziegler >>> family do not want to continue to sponsor the magazine anymore. Instead, >>> they prefer to invest the money to Yale medical center to do research on >>> eye >>> disease related subject. Not sure if Gregory Evanina fought over the >>> case. I >>> visited their headquarter office in New York when I was 19 which was in >>> 2007. >>> >>> I spoke to Gary a few times and had some contacts with him. I'll try to >>> write an article about Bethel Home later for sure. Once again, your ideas >>> are great! Thanks. >>> >>> Running around the world is pretty fun but get exhausted sometime. To >>> adjust >>> the jet lag several times a year is not that easy. Hope to see you at the >>> NFB convention sometime. I am still deciding whether I should go this >>> year >>> or next. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Crystal >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:13 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China >>> >>> >>> Hi, Crystal. >>> >>> Good for you! I'm glad you're so active in helping blind children >>> overseas live fully independent lives! Maybe a good idea would be >>> to write up a little article about Bethel and the kids there to >>> put in the Braille Monitor. I think by putting something in the >>> Monitor, you would be reaching out to a lot of people who might >>> be able and willing to help! It says in the magazine that >>> articles for the Monitor can go to the editor, Gary Wunder, who >>> happens to be on the Blind Talk list if you're on that. You can >>> mail your article to: National Federation of the Blind, Attention >>> Gary Wunder. 200 East Wells Street, Baltimore, Maryland, 21230. >>> You can also email your article to gwunder at nfb.org. You can go >>> to www.nfb.org for more information. Hope this helps! >>> P.S. You could also put an article in the Matilda Ziegler >>> Magazine for the Blind, an independent magazine for the blind, >>> not affiliated with any organization providing news, information, >>> and commentary on the issues facing the blind. You can send an >>> email to Ross Hammond, the editor of the Ziegler at >>> editor at matildaziegler.com. You can check out >>> www.matildaziegler.com to get more info! >>> P.P.S. Please understand that I'm not affiliated in any way with >>> neither the Monitor nor the Ziegler. I'm just a reader of both >>> who thought these magazines might help you in your efforts. >>> >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Jing Crystal Wu ?닸쇂>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Date sent: Tue, 3 May 2011 04:13:59 +0200 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China >>> >>> Dear Beth, >>> >>> I am teaching English at the center, and also doing project >>> consultant work. >>> So far, we have one mobility instructor from California, one >>> multiple-disability educator from France, one blind Braille >>> teacher, one >>> music teacher, and five Chinese teachers. Of course, the >>> orphanage have many >>> care-givers, administraters, fund raisers, public relation >>> manager and staff >>> members. Bethel has foster care, education and self-care >>> training for kids. >>> Bethel even has its own farm field, so the kids can help to feed >>> dogs, >>> goats, chickens, ducks. Right now, I am trying to push to open >>> up a job >>> training course; however, I can't stay in Beijing for too long. >>> If any of >>> you is interested to do job training, counciling, independence >>> training, I >>> am sure you will be very helpful in Bethel. >>> >>> I must encourage kids to learn, to live and to travel >>> independently. It'll >>> be wonderful if we can something together. My skype is >>> jing.wu.crystal >>> MSN: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Crystal >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Beth" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:57 AM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China >>> >>> >>> Crystal, >>> What can the folks at the CCB in Denver, Colorado do for the >>> orphanage? What can any ordinary people do to help the kids? I >>> am >>> interested in helping blind people overseas too, but not China >>> necessarily. But it's fascinating. Do you have Skype? Do >>> write me >>> off list at >>> thebluesisloose at gmail.com >>> >>> Thank you, >>> Beth Taurasi >>> >>> On 5/2/11, Jing Crystal Wu ?닸쇂 >>> wrote: >>> Dear all, >>> >>> I am currently working in an orphanage for the blind in Beijing. >>> Bethel >>> Home >>> has 45 blind children, and it's a NGO orphanage run by a french >>> couple. >>> Just >>> wonder if any students will be interested to do internship or >>> volunteer >>> work >>> in Beijing. You may visit >>> www.bethelchina.org >>> >>> Most of the kids speak English and Chinese. Many of the >>> volunteers are >>> from >>> Europe and North America. Too bad I have to return to school in >>> Stockholm >>> this summer. Hope any of you can support and help the kids in >>> any way you >>> can. Thanks. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Crystal >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Tina Hansen" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Cc: "Correspondence Committee Mailing List" >>> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:51 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Food for Thought: Presenting Our Message as >>> Theater >>> >>> >>> Not long ago, I learned that the Braille Institute in Los >>> Angeles, >>> California, produced a series of recordings called Sound >>> Solutions. They >>> present tools and techniques for coping with blindness and >>> vision loss >>> in >>> a number of dramatic formats. I thought: it might be cool if we >>> could do >>> that. We do have a play at our National convention, but that's >>> about it. >>> >>> I'm not sure if I agree with everything they present, but I >>> still think >>> we >>> >>> can learn from it. To get an idea of what they do, you can go >>> to >>> >>> http://www.airsla.org/soundsolutions.asp >>> >>> The episodes cover topics such as: home management, coping >>> skills, and >>> many other topics, and with one exception, most of them are 30 >>> minutes >>> or >>> less. >>> >>> I'm presenting this for what it's worth, since I know that we >>> have some >>> creative people out there, and I also know that if we can >>> present our >>> message in a creative way, it might interest the younger >>> generation. >>> Check >>> >>> it out. Thanks. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing198 >>> 61209%40hotmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesi >>> sloose%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing198 >>> 61209%40hotmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Mary Fernandez >> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students >> Emory University 2012 >> P.O. Box 123056 >> Atlanta Ga. >> 30322 >> Phone: 732-857-7004 >> >> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much >> rather you weren't doing it." >> Terry Pratchett >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cindy Bennett UNC Wilmington Psychology major clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 From spangler.robert at gmail.com Wed May 4 03:26:38 2011 From: spangler.robert at gmail.com (Robert Spangler) Date: Tue, 03 May 2011 23:26:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS In-Reply-To: References: <20F30263B78D44D98DE4F17EDD02B660@OwnerPC> <76ECABBF-7025-4A70-A1B6-54DF93D9EC7E@gmail.com> <613C0503A5A54ED89A6C7D97C6DB3AE1@OwnerPC> <089F83C8-C314-43F3-B922-28D184F7F486@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4DC0C76E.1040502@gmail.com> Hello all, I, personally, do not have a problem with APS so long as they are spaced far enough apart and aren't too bothersome to the public. I also think that there should always be a button, in case those who find them annoying don't want to use them. I don't have an issue with their presence at high-traffic intersections or complex crossings such as those mentioned by other members of the list; however, imagine having APS at every intersection in a downtown area? That would be a nightmare for everyone! Thanks, Robby On 5/2/2011 7:42 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Ashley and all, > > I don't know exactly what NFB's official position is at this point. I > personally am a big fan of audible traffic signals, for a few reasons. > First, as you pointed out, there are several kinds of intersections > where the auditory cue to cross is rather subtle-such as > T-intersections, those where the parallel street is generally quiet or > those with leading turn arrows, where you have to listen for the > turning traffic to stop before crossing. I know it is possible to > reliably cross these kinds of intersections using traffic cues alone, > but the potential for mistakes (both missing the cue to cross and > inadvertently crossing at the wrong time) is substantial especially > for those who have had insufficient training. Second, as far as I > know, there is no reliable way to tell when your walk signal is about > to end. So if you come up to an intersection and the light is in your > favor, there's no way to tell whether you will have enough time to > cross before the light changes. The only really safe way to handle > this is to wait until the light turns red and then green again, which > can be inconvenient. Trust me, I've gambled on these and tried to > cross without enough time-the result is scary not to mention > embarrassing. Finally, though I know this logic is not always popular, > I do think that if the sighted are given a clear cue to cross the > street and it is not an undue hardship to make that signal accessible > to the blind, it should be done. I can't imagine an intersection where > sighted pedestrians are expected to watch the traffic without any kind > of walk signal or light indicating when it was safe to cross. > That being said, I don't think this necessarily has to be our biggest > priority at this time. I also recognize that some blind travelers find > audible signals bothersome and I would support some way of making the > sound optional or implementing a tactile (i.e. vibrating) signal, > which would also benefit the deaf-blind. > > Arielle > > On 5/2/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> I thought it wasn't supposed to be enforced till like 2012? >> >> >> On May 2, 2011, at 7:14 PM, wrote: >> >>> George, >>> Actually the ACB seems as mad as ever; yes they won in the court; but the >>> government has not produced accessible currency yet. >>> Some do not feel the decision will be enforced. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez >>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:57 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS >>> >>> I believe the national is officially against expanding the use of APS. >>> >>> As far as accessible currency, didn't the ACB already close that case in >>> court? >>> ACB V. US trasury 2009 or something like that? >>> >>> >>> On May 2, 2011, at 6:36 PM, wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they are >>>> taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency >>>> topics and really trashing the NFB and they don’t know the real positions >>>> and facts. >>>> They think NFB opposes both. >>>> I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions? >>>> Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. >>>> >>>> What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do you >>>> think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? >>>> Personally, I’d like the APS at intersections where you have to press the >>>> walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk signal to know when >>>> our time starts; you have to press the button in order to tell the >>>> computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk phase to cross the >>>> street. I think these are called actuated signals. These streets favor >>>> drivers, not pedestrians; the busier streets get more traffic time. That >>>> change of the signal is activated by a computer. >>>> >>>> At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, without a >>>> button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues to hear to >>>> cross. >>>> I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn >>>> lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some signals >>>> even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk interval. >>>> >>>> So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient traffic >>>> cues to cross the street. I’ve tried to learn how to cross T streets, >>>> and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help there too. No >>>> parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. >>>> >>>> Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on APS, >>>> so I’m not sure what it is now. I certainly don’t want them everywhere, >>>> but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see their use. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com >> > From k7uij at panix.com Wed May 4 04:25:18 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 21:25:18 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] what is Federationism In-Reply-To: References: <4dc06641.0b5d340a.4245.0825@mx.google.com> <006b01cc09fb$a88017b0$f9804710$@panix.com> Message-ID: <008901cc0a13$46b1b710$d4152530$@panix.com> Mark: I'll answer. First, I obviously disagree with your assertion that we should design the world for the lowest-skilled blind folks as well as those with skills. We do not do this for the sighted although I'll admit we're beginning to distressingly dumb down all too many aspects of our society. That way is not the way of excellence. But, for example, we push for literacy, not for everything to be so designed that no reading is necessary. To do otherwise is impossible in a practical sense. Likewise, trying to construct the world so that every blind person without training can function is a practical impossibility. Everyone needs training. And blind persons need more training than do the sighted in a world constructed for the sighted. That may not perhaps be fair but fairness doesn't enter into it in that life isn't fair. Moreover, trying to accommodate every disability will be a never-ending task. The only true way to accomplish it would be to eliminate those disabilities. So we're going to have to adapt to the world as it is to some extent. Universal design is a mirage. AS for discrimination, I define it using the strict legal definition: discrimination is treatment of a class that is detrimental, unreasonable and bears no relationship to the end that resulted in the classification. So what constitutes discriminatory treatment varies by generation and how we classify people and whether such classifications are considered reasonable or not. For example, before the Thirteenth and fourteenth Amendments, the classification of people as slaves was certainly detrimental to them but until the flowering of the Abolition Movement, many people considered it perfectly reasonable. Thankfully, that changed although it took considerable struggle to get anywhere near universal change and some would argue we're not there yet. Similarly, at one time many considered employment of the blind to be unreasonable so universal placement in sheltered shops or refusing to hire the blind in competitive industry wasn't viewed as discriminatory except, of course, by the Federation who considered the classification of unemployability both detrimental and unreasonable. AS more and more blind people proved themselves in the world of work and the Federation won concessions from employers both in the courts and in the venue of public opinion, the view that not hiring the blind wasn't discriminatory faded into history, at least in theory. So what does this have to do with technology access or such statutes as the Americans with Disabilities Act and the Twenty-first Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act? Well, I believe that in terms of classic discrimination theory, not much. But these laws and others like them and NFB's proposed Technology Bill of Rights Act made and will make new law in which certain acts and omissions are to be declared discriminatory by definition. We can argue whether these are "good law" but the majority of thinking people in this country, rightly, in my opinion, think they are. But even these laws have mechanisms for adjudging whether particular behavior or circumstances fit into a pattern of discrimination. All these laws have language in them such as "readily achievable" and "undue hardship" to qualify when particular behavior and circumstances or, more properly, remedies, are considered reasonable. This was why NFB opposed ACB's suit against the U.S. Treasury to gain "accessible" paper currency. WE did not deny that such currency might be useful or nice-to-have. In fact, we were working with the bureau of Printing and Engraving on how such currency might be designed. What we fought was the notion that *not* having it was discriminatory treatment of the blind in that we contended that blind people had been successfully using paper currency for many years. We lost. We're still working with the Bureau of Printing and Engraving. One final thing and then I'll cease and desist. We of NFB do not say that we *(never* ask the world to adapt. Our recent record in trying to make cyberspace accessible should speak for itself. What many of us *do* say is that we should carefully consider what we ask for and only ask for those adaptations where we haven't devised alternative techniques to accomplish tasks for ourselves or where we are completely shut out of opportunities (as with inaccessible airport kiosks). In other words, we do not automatically buy into the notion that if sighted persons accomplish a certain task in a certain way, provision must be made for the blind person to accomplish the same task in an analogous fashion. Sometimes this is the case; in other cases, there are ways of doing things that do *not* involve society's having to adapt for us. Apologies for the length of this post. Mike Freeman -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marc Workman Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 8:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] what is Federationism I've made this point many times before, but it's been a while; perhaps there are new subscribers who haven't heard it yet. I think Mike's characterization of federation philosophy is accurate, and there's a lot worth championing in that way of understanding blindness, but there's also, in my opinion, a serious inconsistency. Mike wrote, virtually all of the problems of blindness are those experienced by other minorities within society, e.g., discriminatory treatment and lack of acceptance as persons of equal standing with the rest of society. Mike also wrote, Additionally, we of the NFB believe that we, the blind, can adapt to the world, requiring few modifications to function effectively in the world as it is. I don't think this is quite write. It seems to me federationism not only suggests that we can adapt to the world as it is, but that we ought to adapt to the world as it is. And this is the aspect of federationism I think is problematic and inconsistent. My question is: why not adapt to the discrimination and unequal treatment? What I would argue is that designing products, services, institutions, etc in such a way that they are inaccessible is a form of discrimination. So federationism requires 1) that we stand up and resist discrimination and 2) that we accept and adapt to discrimination, and this is inconsistent. One could avoid the inconsistency by defining discrimination narrowly. You might say that discrimination requires intent and that badly designing various products, services, etc is not done with discriminatory intent, and thus does not qualify as discrimination. I could concede this point, but then I'd argue that recognizing these things as inaccessible and than failing to correct them is discrimination. It conceivably wasn't a discriminatory intention that led builders of the Canadian Parliament to fail to include enough women's washrooms. There weren't that many women in the building, and they certainly weren't sitting in the House of Commons, so there was no need to build washrooms for them. But when women did begin to be elected, failing to build the washrooms would be discriminatory. Nor was building the washrooms a matter of accommodating the special needs of women, doing so was required as a matter of justice, it was the correction of a flaw in the initial design. I think the same argument applies when it comes to altering the world to make it more accessible for blind people. Most things are designed under the assumption that they will be used by sighted rather than blind people. To design things in this way is wrong, just as it is wrong to design Parliament under the assumption that only men will use the washrooms. You could challenge me on what I mean by inaccessible, and here's another place where I suspect I clash with federation philosophy. A blind person shouldn't have to undergo significant blindness training in order to function in the world. She should absolutely have the opportunity to acquire such training, but she shouldn't be condemned to a life of poverty and isolation if she fails to receive such training. We should not be fighting for a world that only well-trained and qualified blind people can adapt to; we should be fighting for one where as many people as possible, with the widest variety of skills as possible, can flourish. This is an ideal; it's not a place we should ever expect to reach, but we should nevertheless strive to achieve it. To simply adapt to the world as it exists is to accept injustice and discrimination. Apologies for digressing from the intent of the original question. Cheers, Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] what is Federationism > Chris: > > I conceive of Federationism as the attempt to live the Federation > philosophy > in one's own life. It is the active espousal of NFB philosophy in word > and > deed. > > What is the Federation philosophy? Here's what I wrote on the NFB of > Washington website: > > The real problem of blindness is not the lack of eyesight; it is the > misconceptions about blindness held by society. > The blind are neither especially cursed nor especially blessed; they are > normal people who cannot see. > With training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to the level of a > physical nuisance or inconvenience. > With training and opportunity, the average blind person can perform the > average job in the average workplace as well as can his/her sighted > colleagues. > The blind are a minority within society and virtually all of the problems > of > blindness are those experienced by other minorities within society, e.g., > discriminatory treatment and lack of acceptance as persons of equal > standing > with the rest of society. > In essence, NFB's philosophy of blindness amounts to the knowledge that it > is respectable to be blind. > > Additionally, we of the NFB believe that we, the blind, can adapt to the > world, requiring few modifications to function effectively in the world as > it is. > > I joined the Federation and am still a Federationist because I believe in > the tenets of NFB philosophy and, having had some difficulty securing > employment, because I vowed that I would do what I could to see to it that > such discrimination wouldn't happen to the blind of future generations. > It > is my way of doing what I can to see to it that the blind achieve > first-class citizenship and complete integration into society on a basis > of > equality with the sighted. I've always been interested in the law, > especially constitutional law, and the NFB is a great way for me to play > lawyer without a law degree (I've authored several Washington laws) and > gives me a chance to examine in detail such concepts as discrimination, > what > we can and should expect from society and, perhaps more importantly, what > we > shouldn't expect. > > Mike Freeman > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:32 PM > To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org > Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] what is Federationism > > Hi, all. > > Here's an interesting, maybe somewhat philosophical question for all of > you. > Sorry for those of you who don't like these topics, you don't have to > reply. > I've always been an NFB member (since I was very little) but I was never > really active in it. Oh sure, I followed some of the issues and had some > oppinions, but I never really was that active in the NFB itself. Now, > after > I went to the NFB's Leadership and Advocacy program, I seem to have a new > sense of support for the Federation and as I'm learning more, I want to be > more active in it. I really am starting to understand and strongly > believe > in the NFB philosophy, or at least how I interpret it. So I want to ask > you > a threefold question: what does Federationism mean to you, what do you > think > the NFB philosophy is, and why are you a Federationist? I'm not going to > tell you my opinion just yet, mainly because I don't really have a strong > one. That's why I want to hear from you, think about your opinions, and > finally decide what I believe. I look forward to hearing all of your > thoughts! > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gma il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Wed May 4 05:29:51 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 01:29:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS In-Reply-To: <4DC0C76E.1040502@gmail.com> References: <20F30263B78D44D98DE4F17EDD02B660@OwnerPC> <76ECABBF-7025-4A70-A1B6-54DF93D9EC7E@gmail.com> <613C0503A5A54ED89A6C7D97C6DB3AE1@OwnerPC> <089F83C8-C314-43F3-B922-28D184F7F486@gmail.com> <4DC0C76E.1040502@gmail.com> Message-ID: I just remembered that in Madrid they have an other interesting system: where APS make this rather pleasant sound which sounds just like a bird singing. It's actually not annoying, and they have them literally all over the city. At this point it's just a sound that one identifies with Madrid. The bird also sings differently depending on how much time you have left to cross etc. The first time I heard it I thought it was funny, but the truth is that it doesn't bother people and it does the job. On May 3, 2011, at 11:26 PM, Robert Spangler wrote: > Hello all, > > I, personally, do not have a problem with APS so long as they are spaced far enough apart and aren't too bothersome to the public. I also think that there should always be a button, in case those who find them annoying don't want to use them. I don't have an issue with their presence at high-traffic intersections or complex crossings such as those mentioned by other members of the list; however, imagine having APS at every intersection in a downtown area? That would be a nightmare for everyone! > > Thanks, > Robby > On 5/2/2011 7:42 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi Ashley and all, >> >> I don't know exactly what NFB's official position is at this point. I >> personally am a big fan of audible traffic signals, for a few reasons. >> First, as you pointed out, there are several kinds of intersections >> where the auditory cue to cross is rather subtle-such as >> T-intersections, those where the parallel street is generally quiet or >> those with leading turn arrows, where you have to listen for the >> turning traffic to stop before crossing. I know it is possible to >> reliably cross these kinds of intersections using traffic cues alone, >> but the potential for mistakes (both missing the cue to cross and >> inadvertently crossing at the wrong time) is substantial especially >> for those who have had insufficient training. Second, as far as I >> know, there is no reliable way to tell when your walk signal is about >> to end. So if you come up to an intersection and the light is in your >> favor, there's no way to tell whether you will have enough time to >> cross before the light changes. The only really safe way to handle >> this is to wait until the light turns red and then green again, which >> can be inconvenient. Trust me, I've gambled on these and tried to >> cross without enough time-the result is scary not to mention >> embarrassing. Finally, though I know this logic is not always popular, >> I do think that if the sighted are given a clear cue to cross the >> street and it is not an undue hardship to make that signal accessible >> to the blind, it should be done. I can't imagine an intersection where >> sighted pedestrians are expected to watch the traffic without any kind >> of walk signal or light indicating when it was safe to cross. >> That being said, I don't think this necessarily has to be our biggest >> priority at this time. I also recognize that some blind travelers find >> audible signals bothersome and I would support some way of making the >> sound optional or implementing a tactile (i.e. vibrating) signal, >> which would also benefit the deaf-blind. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 5/2/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> I thought it wasn't supposed to be enforced till like 2012? >>> >>> >>> On May 2, 2011, at 7:14 PM, wrote: >>> >>>> George, >>>> Actually the ACB seems as mad as ever; yes they won in the court; but the >>>> government has not produced accessible currency yet. >>>> Some do not feel the decision will be enforced. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez >>>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:57 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS >>>> >>>> I believe the national is officially against expanding the use of APS. >>>> >>>> As far as accessible currency, didn't the ACB already close that case in >>>> court? >>>> ACB V. US trasury 2009 or something like that? >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 2, 2011, at 6:36 PM, wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they are >>>>> taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency >>>>> topics and really trashing the NFB and they don’t know the real positions >>>>> and facts. >>>>> They think NFB opposes both. >>>>> I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions? >>>>> Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. >>>>> >>>>> What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do you >>>>> think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? >>>>> Personally, I’d like the APS at intersections where you have to press the >>>>> walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk signal to know when >>>>> our time starts; you have to press the button in order to tell the >>>>> computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk phase to cross the >>>>> street. I think these are called actuated signals. These streets favor >>>>> drivers, not pedestrians; the busier streets get more traffic time. That >>>>> change of the signal is activated by a computer. >>>>> >>>>> At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, without a >>>>> button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues to hear to >>>>> cross. >>>>> I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn >>>>> lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some signals >>>>> even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk interval. >>>>> >>>>> So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient traffic >>>>> cues to cross the street. I’ve tried to learn how to cross T streets, >>>>> and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help there too. No >>>>> parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. >>>>> >>>>> Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on APS, >>>>> so I’m not sure what it is now. I certainly don’t want them everywhere, >>>>> but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see their use. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com >>> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed May 4 16:26:42 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Wed, 04 May 2011 12:26:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Message-ID: <20110504162642.8011.39003@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Kirt, I think the bottom line for me is this: can I do what I need to do in a manner that's convenient for me and everyone else around me? Goes back to that "Nature of Independence," doesn't it? You're right that not every technology is going to be accessible to us and that we will have to make work-arounds. No problem. We could say, going back to our "If the world went sighted" discussion, that if nothing else, blindness does encourage the development of problem-solving skills. Most of the time, getting help, if that's what's needed, is perfectly acceptable and sometimes easier or more convenient. For example, I personally find that I'd rather be checked in by a human than the touchscreens because it seems to me that touchscreen kiosks are kind of complicated (not the technology, but the systems they run on) when it may be just as easy to have an agent (or easier) check me in. And for now, that's fine given that many airlines still have agents that can do that for anyone. But for those airlines that don't even have agents, that's a problem. Sure, you could work around it by checking in online (and that's probably not a bad idea), but you may have instances where that is not possible for whatever reason. So it really is inconvenient to the self and others to track down the help you need and then find a way to get rid of them politely so you can go about your business and let them get back to theirs. the same issue goes for grocery lines. Here's where I draw the line though. I, generally speaking, refuse to allow anyone to help me at an ATM unless I absolutely know they can be trusted. There are few people I would entrust with this task, and none of them are members of my family. I have had a bad experience with someone who helped me: my sister stole money from my bank account when she helped me with an aTM. Long story short, i became very wary of assistance in this matter. So for things like that, I believe it's a right of privacy that's at stake here, and everyone ought to have to have that right whether they belong to the majority or not. Same with voting. I personally prefer the privacy that comes with an accessible vote than entrusting my vote to someone who may or may not agree with me acting as a reader. If everyone else in the country has the right to a private vote, so do I. Now, if I choose to have someone read my ballot to me anyway, that's my choice, but I still have that right to privacy thanks to the HAVA. Does any of this make sense? Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > To all, > Here's my take...and, because I enjoy being an argumentative pain in > the neck, I'm going to enjoy this. :) But before I start, I want to > make it perfectly clear that I'm absolutely for the Technology Bill of > Rights, making new technology accessible ought to be a legal right, > and we are at a disadvantage when technology, like the touch screens > Ashley mentioned are being put in store checkout lines, is used. > But we need to remember we are a minority and the majority of the > population shouldn't bend over backwards to accomodate us. While > having all new technology come to us perfectly accessible is a > laudable goal, it's probably never going to totally be realized. > Should we have the right? Absolutely. Will we ever have it totally? > Probably not...even with the Technology bill of rights, this dream of > Universal Design will probably never be totally realized. That > doesn't mean we don't work towards it-it just means we need to learn > how to live in a world where there are inconveniences we have to deal > with. We may have to stand in lines instead of using the independent > self checkout-deal with it. We may need to get a reader if our > textbooks aren't accessible-too bad. We may need to get assistance > using keosks in the airport-I'm terribly sorry, that's life. e maybe > might even have to go with a trusted family member or friend when > using an ATM...what a terrible tragedy! I can't believe we're so > mistreated, abused, ignored, neglected, forgotten, and treated like > crap by the rest of the evil sighted world that doesn't even give a > damn about us! Life is aweful! This new technology isn't > accessible-woe is me, we're > dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed! Noone even > cares about us! This is a terrible, terrible, no-good world we live > in, because we need to get people to help us use touch > screens...whatever are we going to do? > Now of course that was an exhageration, and I certainly want > technology to be accessible. But rather than spend so much time > complaining about it, let's do our best to get around the > inaccessibility and live our lives! I'm all for pushing to make this > new technology independently usable...but it's probably never going to > totally happen, deal with it. There will always be inconveniences and > annoyences associated with being blind-get used to it. The world will > never perfectly cater to our every whim, get over it. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > On 5/2/11, humberto wrote: >> Sorry, but your message came out blank: Subject: Re: [Nabs-l] New >> Technology And blindness, sent on Sonday may 1, 2011 at 9:33 AM >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Chris Nusbaum >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list>> Date sent: Sun, 01 May 2011 09:33:12 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >> 5369%40netzero.net >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed May 4 16:29:58 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Wed, 04 May 2011 12:29:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS Message-ID: <20110504162958.16078.69599@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Now that's a great idea that solves a lot of problems. I was thinking of a similar technology for the deaf-blind that would alert them to traffic patterns based on cars rather than the lights. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > I like what we have in Barcelona (Spain): blind people can ask for a > remote which can be used to activate audible traffic signals. This same > remote can also be used to make a bus tell you its number when it > comes. The system is not perfect yet, but it works most of the time. > On May 2, 2011, at 7:42 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi Ashley and all, >> I don't know exactly what NFB's official position is at this point. I >> personally am a big fan of audible traffic signals, for a few reasons. >> First, as you pointed out, there are several kinds of intersections >> where the auditory cue to cross is rather subtle-such as >> T-intersections, those where the parallel street is generally quiet or >> those with leading turn arrows, where you have to listen for the >> turning traffic to stop before crossing. I know it is possible to >> reliably cross these kinds of intersections using traffic cues alone, >> but the potential for mistakes (both missing the cue to cross and >> inadvertently crossing at the wrong time) is substantial especially >> for those who have had insufficient training. Second, as far as I >> know, there is no reliable way to tell when your walk signal is about >> to end. So if you come up to an intersection and the light is in your >> favor, there's no way to tell whether you will have enough time to >> cross before the light changes. The only really safe way to handle >> this is to wait until the light turns red and then green again, which >> can be inconvenient. Trust me, I've gambled on these and tried to >> cross without enough time-the result is scary not to mention >> embarrassing. Finally, though I know this logic is not always popular, >> I do think that if the sighted are given a clear cue to cross the >> street and it is not an undue hardship to make that signal accessible >> to the blind, it should be done. I can't imagine an intersection where >> sighted pedestrians are expected to watch the traffic without any kind >> of walk signal or light indicating when it was safe to cross. >> That being said, I don't think this necessarily has to be our biggest >> priority at this time. I also recognize that some blind travelers find >> audible signals bothersome and I would support some way of making the >> sound optional or implementing a tactile (i.e. vibrating) signal, >> which would also benefit the deaf-blind. >> Arielle >> On 5/2/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> I thought it wasn't supposed to be enforced till like 2012? >>> On May 2, 2011, at 7:14 PM, wrote: >>>> George, >>>> Actually the ACB seems as mad as ever; yes they won in the court; but the >>>> government has not produced accessible currency yet. >>>> Some do not feel the decision will be enforced. >>>> Ashley >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez >>>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:57 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS >>>> I believe the national is officially against expanding the use of APS. >>>> As far as accessible currency, didn't the ACB already close that case in >>>> court? >>>> ACB V. US trasury 2009 or something like that? >>>> On May 2, 2011, at 6:36 PM, wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they are >>>>> taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency >>>>> topics and really trashing the NFB and they don’t know the real positions >>>>> and facts. >>>>> They think NFB opposes both. >>>>> I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions? >>>>> Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. >>>>> What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do you >>>>> think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? >>>>> Personally, I’d like the APS at intersections where you have to press the >>>>> walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk signal to know when >>>>> our time starts; you have to press the button in order to tell the >>>>> computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk phase to cross the >>>>> street. I think these are called actuated signals. These streets favor >>>>> drivers, not pedestrians; the busier streets get more traffic time. That >>>>> change of the signal is activated by a computer. >>>>> At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, without a >>>>> button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues to hear to >>>>> cross. >>>>> I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn >>>>> lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some signals >>>>> even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk interval. >>>>> So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient traffic >>>>> cues to cross the street. I’ve tried to learn how to cross T streets, >>>>> and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help there too. No >>>>> parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. >>>>> Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on APS, >>>>> so I’m not sure what it is now. I certainly don’t want them everywhere, >>>>> but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see their use. >>>>> Ashley >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com >> -- >> Arielle Silverman >> President, National Association of Blind Students >> Phone: 602-502-2255 >> Email: >> nabs.president at gmail.com >> Website: >> www.nabslink.org >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed May 4 16:56:13 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Wed, 04 May 2011 12:56:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS Message-ID: <20110504165613.21838.2313@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> There's just one problem with that. I believe it's Australia. In fact, I'm sure it is. They have this bird called a lyrebird, and it has the ability to mimic the sounds it hears. So, if it hears this special bird song and mimics it, some blind person's life could be in danger if she or he doens't know how to read traffic. I've heard of other birds having a similar ability as the lyrebird. So, I'd vote for some other pleasant sound that's a little harder for wildlife to mimic such as a piano tune or something. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > I just remembered that in Madrid they have an other interesting system: > where APS make this rather pleasant sound which sounds just like a bird > singing. It's actually not annoying, and they have them literally all > over the city. At this point it's just a sound that one identifies with > Madrid. The bird also sings differently depending on how much time you > have left to cross etc. The first time I heard it I thought it was > funny, but the truth is that it doesn't bother people and it does the job. > On May 3, 2011, at 11:26 PM, Robert Spangler wrote: >> Hello all, >> I, personally, do not have a problem with APS so long as they are >> spaced far enough apart and aren't too bothersome to the public. I >> also think that there should always be a button, in case those who find >> them annoying don't want to use them. I don't have an issue with their >> presence at high-traffic intersections or complex crossings such as >> those mentioned by other members of the list; however, imagine having >> APS at every intersection in a downtown area? That would be a >> nightmare for everyone! >> Thanks, >> Robby >> On 5/2/2011 7:42 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Hi Ashley and all, >>> I don't know exactly what NFB's official position is at this point. I >>> personally am a big fan of audible traffic signals, for a few reasons. >>> First, as you pointed out, there are several kinds of intersections >>> where the auditory cue to cross is rather subtle-such as >>> T-intersections, those where the parallel street is generally quiet or >>> those with leading turn arrows, where you have to listen for the >>> turning traffic to stop before crossing. I know it is possible to >>> reliably cross these kinds of intersections using traffic cues alone, >>> but the potential for mistakes (both missing the cue to cross and >>> inadvertently crossing at the wrong time) is substantial especially >>> for those who have had insufficient training. Second, as far as I >>> know, there is no reliable way to tell when your walk signal is about >>> to end. So if you come up to an intersection and the light is in your >>> favor, there's no way to tell whether you will have enough time to >>> cross before the light changes. The only really safe way to handle >>> this is to wait until the light turns red and then green again, which >>> can be inconvenient. Trust me, I've gambled on these and tried to >>> cross without enough time-the result is scary not to mention >>> embarrassing. Finally, though I know this logic is not always popular, >>> I do think that if the sighted are given a clear cue to cross the >>> street and it is not an undue hardship to make that signal accessible >>> to the blind, it should be done. I can't imagine an intersection where >>> sighted pedestrians are expected to watch the traffic without any kind >>> of walk signal or light indicating when it was safe to cross. >>> That being said, I don't think this necessarily has to be our biggest >>> priority at this time. I also recognize that some blind travelers find >>> audible signals bothersome and I would support some way of making the >>> sound optional or implementing a tactile (i.e. vibrating) signal, >>> which would also benefit the deaf-blind. >>> Arielle >>> On 5/2/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> I thought it wasn't supposed to be enforced till like 2012? >>>> On May 2, 2011, at 7:14 PM, wrote: >>>>> George, >>>>> Actually the ACB seems as mad as ever; yes they won in the court; but the >>>>> government has not produced accessible currency yet. >>>>> Some do not feel the decision will be enforced. >>>>> Ashley >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez >>>>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:57 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS >>>>> I believe the national is officially against expanding the use of APS. >>>>> As far as accessible currency, didn't the ACB already close that case in >>>>> court? >>>>> ACB V. US trasury 2009 or something like that? >>>>> On May 2, 2011, at 6:36 PM, wrote: >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they are >>>>>> taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency >>>>>> topics and really trashing the NFB and they don’t know the real positions >>>>>> and facts. >>>>>> They think NFB opposes both. >>>>>> I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions? >>>>>> Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. >>>>>> What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do you >>>>>> think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? >>>>>> Personally, I’d like the APS at intersections where you have to press the >>>>>> walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk signal to know when >>>>>> our time starts; you have to press the button in order to tell the >>>>>> computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk phase to cross the >>>>>> street. I think these are called actuated signals. These streets favor >>>>>> drivers, not pedestrians; the busier streets get more traffic time. That >>>>>> change of the signal is activated by a computer. >>>>>> At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, without a >>>>>> button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues to hear to >>>>>> cross. >>>>>> I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn >>>>>> lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some signals >>>>>> even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk interval. >>>>>> So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient traffic >>>>>> cues to cross the street. I’ve tried to learn how to cross T streets, >>>>>> and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help there too. No >>>>>> parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. >>>>>> Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on APS, >>>>>> so I’m not sure what it is now. I certainly don’t want them everywhere, >>>>>> but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see their use. >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From liziswhatis at hotmail.com Wed May 4 17:48:07 2011 From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 12:48:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Nabs May Conference Call: ...And we have a Tie! Message-ID: Hello all, Here are the results from the voting to determine the next conference call put on by the NABS membership committee. We had a tie between Sports & Recreation and Technology. We need your help to break the tie. To cast your vote please contact nabs.membership at gmail.com by tomorrow (Thursday). Thank you for your help in breaking the tie! Sincerely, NABS Membership committee Liz Bottner Co-chair, Nabs Membership Committee Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed May 4 19:04:27 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 15:04:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS In-Reply-To: <20110504165613.21838.2313@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> References: <20110504165613.21838.2313@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Jedi: Going with that idea, putting a presto (fast) tune when you are to cross and a slower tune when you should not cross would work. Any thoughts? On May 4, 2011, at 12:56 PM, Jedi wrote: > There's just one problem with that. I believe it's Australia. In fact, I'm sure it is. They have this bird called a lyrebird, and it has the ability to mimic the sounds it hears. So, if it hears this special bird song and mimics it, some blind person's life could be in danger if she or he doens't know how to read traffic. I've heard of other birds having a similar ability as the lyrebird. So, I'd vote for some other pleasant sound that's a little harder for wildlife to mimic such as a piano tune or something. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> I just remembered that in Madrid they have an other interesting system: where APS make this rather pleasant sound which sounds just like a bird singing. It's actually not annoying, and they have them literally all over the city. At this point it's just a sound that one identifies with Madrid. The bird also sings differently depending on how much time you have left to cross etc. The first time I heard it I thought it was funny, but the truth is that it doesn't bother people and it does the job. >> On May 3, 2011, at 11:26 PM, Robert Spangler wrote: > >>> Hello all, > >>> I, personally, do not have a problem with APS so long as they are spaced far enough apart and aren't too bothersome to the public. I also think that there should always be a button, in case those who find them annoying don't want to use them. I don't have an issue with their presence at high-traffic intersections or complex crossings such as those mentioned by other members of the list; however, imagine having APS at every intersection in a downtown area? That would be a nightmare for everyone! > >>> Thanks, >>> Robby >>> On 5/2/2011 7:42 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> Hi Ashley and all, > >>>> I don't know exactly what NFB's official position is at this point. I >>>> personally am a big fan of audible traffic signals, for a few reasons. >>>> First, as you pointed out, there are several kinds of intersections >>>> where the auditory cue to cross is rather subtle-such as >>>> T-intersections, those where the parallel street is generally quiet or >>>> those with leading turn arrows, where you have to listen for the >>>> turning traffic to stop before crossing. I know it is possible to >>>> reliably cross these kinds of intersections using traffic cues alone, >>>> but the potential for mistakes (both missing the cue to cross and >>>> inadvertently crossing at the wrong time) is substantial especially >>>> for those who have had insufficient training. Second, as far as I >>>> know, there is no reliable way to tell when your walk signal is about >>>> to end. So if you come up to an intersection and the light is in your >>>> favor, there's no way to tell whether you will have enough time to >>>> cross before the light changes. The only really safe way to handle >>>> this is to wait until the light turns red and then green again, which >>>> can be inconvenient. Trust me, I've gambled on these and tried to >>>> cross without enough time-the result is scary not to mention >>>> embarrassing. Finally, though I know this logic is not always popular, >>>> I do think that if the sighted are given a clear cue to cross the >>>> street and it is not an undue hardship to make that signal accessible >>>> to the blind, it should be done. I can't imagine an intersection where >>>> sighted pedestrians are expected to watch the traffic without any kind >>>> of walk signal or light indicating when it was safe to cross. >>>> That being said, I don't think this necessarily has to be our biggest >>>> priority at this time. I also recognize that some blind travelers find >>>> audible signals bothersome and I would support some way of making the >>>> sound optional or implementing a tactile (i.e. vibrating) signal, >>>> which would also benefit the deaf-blind. > >>>> Arielle > >>>> On 5/2/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>> I thought it wasn't supposed to be enforced till like 2012? > > >>>>> On May 2, 2011, at 7:14 PM, wrote: > >>>>>> George, >>>>>> Actually the ACB seems as mad as ever; yes they won in the court; but the >>>>>> government has not produced accessible currency yet. >>>>>> Some do not feel the decision will be enforced. > >>>>>> Ashley > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez >>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:57 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS > >>>>>> I believe the national is officially against expanding the use of APS. > >>>>>> As far as accessible currency, didn't the ACB already close that case in >>>>>> court? >>>>>> ACB V. US trasury 2009 or something like that? > > >>>>>> On May 2, 2011, at 6:36 PM, wrote: > >>>>>>> Hi all, > >>>>>>> I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they are >>>>>>> taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency >>>>>>> topics and really trashing the NFB and they don’t know the real positions >>>>>>> and facts. >>>>>>> They think NFB opposes both. >>>>>>> I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions? >>>>>>> Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. > >>>>>>> What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do you >>>>>>> think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? >>>>>>> Personally, I’d like the APS at intersections where you have to press the >>>>>>> walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk signal to know when >>>>>>> our time starts; you have to press the button in order to tell the >>>>>>> computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk phase to cross the >>>>>>> street. I think these are called actuated signals. These streets favor >>>>>>> drivers, not pedestrians; the busier streets get more traffic time. That >>>>>>> change of the signal is activated by a computer. > >>>>>>> At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, without a >>>>>>> button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues to hear to >>>>>>> cross. >>>>>>> I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn >>>>>>> lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some signals >>>>>>> even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk interval. > >>>>>>> So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient traffic >>>>>>> cues to cross the street. I’ve tried to learn how to cross T streets, >>>>>>> and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help there too. No >>>>>>> parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. > >>>>>>> Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on APS, >>>>>>> so I’m not sure what it is now. I certainly don’t want them everywhere, >>>>>>> but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see their use. > >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > > > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From k7uij at panix.com Wed May 4 19:58:12 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 12:58:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS In-Reply-To: References: <20110504165613.21838.2313@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: <73CA26F8-6078-4133-A453-E68F69C3C540@panix.com> You're still depending upon the audio rather than upon your own observation. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 4, 2011, at 12:04, Jorge Paez wrote: > Jedi: > Going with that idea, > putting a presto (fast) tune when you are to cross and a slower tune when you should not cross would work. > Any thoughts? > > > On May 4, 2011, at 12:56 PM, Jedi wrote: > >> There's just one problem with that. I believe it's Australia. In fact, I'm sure it is. They have this bird called a lyrebird, and it has the ability to mimic the sounds it hears. So, if it hears this special bird song and mimics it, some blind person's life could be in danger if she or he doens't know how to read traffic. I've heard of other birds having a similar ability as the lyrebird. So, I'd vote for some other pleasant sound that's a little harder for wildlife to mimic such as a piano tune or something. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Original message: >>> I just remembered that in Madrid they have an other interesting system: where APS make this rather pleasant sound which sounds just like a bird singing. It's actually not annoying, and they have them literally all over the city. At this point it's just a sound that one identifies with Madrid. The bird also sings differently depending on how much time you have left to cross etc. The first time I heard it I thought it was funny, but the truth is that it doesn't bother people and it does the job. >>> On May 3, 2011, at 11:26 PM, Robert Spangler wrote: >> >>>> Hello all, >> >>>> I, personally, do not have a problem with APS so long as they are spaced far enough apart and aren't too bothersome to the public. I also think that there should always be a button, in case those who find them annoying don't want to use them. I don't have an issue with their presence at high-traffic intersections or complex crossings such as those mentioned by other members of the list; however, imagine having APS at every intersection in a downtown area? That would be a nightmare for everyone! >> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Robby >>>> On 5/2/2011 7:42 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>> Hi Ashley and all, >> >>>>> I don't know exactly what NFB's official position is at this point. I >>>>> personally am a big fan of audible traffic signals, for a few reasons. >>>>> First, as you pointed out, there are several kinds of intersections >>>>> where the auditory cue to cross is rather subtle-such as >>>>> T-intersections, those where the parallel street is generally quiet or >>>>> those with leading turn arrows, where you have to listen for the >>>>> turning traffic to stop before crossing. I know it is possible to >>>>> reliably cross these kinds of intersections using traffic cues alone, >>>>> but the potential for mistakes (both missing the cue to cross and >>>>> inadvertently crossing at the wrong time) is substantial especially >>>>> for those who have had insufficient training. Second, as far as I >>>>> know, there is no reliable way to tell when your walk signal is about >>>>> to end. So if you come up to an intersection and the light is in your >>>>> favor, there's no way to tell whether you will have enough time to >>>>> cross before the light changes. The only really safe way to handle >>>>> this is to wait until the light turns red and then green again, which >>>>> can be inconvenient. Trust me, I've gambled on these and tried to >>>>> cross without enough time-the result is scary not to mention >>>>> embarrassing. Finally, though I know this logic is not always popular, >>>>> I do think that if the sighted are given a clear cue to cross the >>>>> street and it is not an undue hardship to make that signal accessible >>>>> to the blind, it should be done. I can't imagine an intersection where >>>>> sighted pedestrians are expected to watch the traffic without any kind >>>>> of walk signal or light indicating when it was safe to cross. >>>>> That being said, I don't think this necessarily has to be our biggest >>>>> priority at this time. I also recognize that some blind travelers find >>>>> audible signals bothersome and I would support some way of making the >>>>> sound optional or implementing a tactile (i.e. vibrating) signal, >>>>> which would also benefit the deaf-blind. >> >>>>> Arielle >> >>>>> On 5/2/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>> I thought it wasn't supposed to be enforced till like 2012? >> >> >>>>>> On May 2, 2011, at 7:14 PM, wrote: >> >>>>>>> George, >>>>>>> Actually the ACB seems as mad as ever; yes they won in the court; but the >>>>>>> government has not produced accessible currency yet. >>>>>>> Some do not feel the decision will be enforced. >> >>>>>>> Ashley >> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:57 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS >> >>>>>>> I believe the national is officially against expanding the use of APS. >> >>>>>>> As far as accessible currency, didn't the ACB already close that case in >>>>>>> court? >>>>>>> ACB V. US trasury 2009 or something like that? >> >> >>>>>>> On May 2, 2011, at 6:36 PM, wrote: >> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >> >>>>>>>> I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they are >>>>>>>> taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency >>>>>>>> topics and really trashing the NFB and they don’t know the real positions >>>>>>>> and facts. >>>>>>>> They think NFB opposes both. >>>>>>>> I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions? >>>>>>>> Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. >> >>>>>>>> What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do you >>>>>>>> think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? >>>>>>>> Personally, I’d like the APS at intersections where you have to press the >>>>>>>> walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk signal to know when >>>>>>>> our time starts; you have to press the button in order to tell the >>>>>>>> computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk phase to cross the >>>>>>>> street. I think these are called actuated signals. These streets favor >>>>>>>> drivers, not pedestrians; the busier streets get more traffic time. That >>>>>>>> change of the signal is activated by a computer. >> >>>>>>>> At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, without a >>>>>>>> button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues to hear to >>>>>>>> cross. >>>>>>>> I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn >>>>>>>> lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some signals >>>>>>>> even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk interval. >> >>>>>>>> So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient traffic >>>>>>>> cues to cross the street. I’ve tried to learn how to cross T streets, >>>>>>>> and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help there too. No >>>>>>>> parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. >> >>>>>>>> Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on APS, >>>>>>>> so I’m not sure what it is now. I certainly don’t want them everywhere, >>>>>>>> but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see their use. >> >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed May 4 20:07:58 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 16:07:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS In-Reply-To: <73CA26F8-6078-4133-A453-E68F69C3C540@panix.com> References: <20110504165613.21838.2313@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <73CA26F8-6078-4133-A453-E68F69C3C540@panix.com> Message-ID: Very true. There would be a button to turn it on if you wish to use it otherwise you don't. Or there should be anyway. On May 4, 2011, at 3:58 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > You're still depending upon the audio rather than upon your own observation. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 4, 2011, at 12:04, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> Jedi: >> Going with that idea, >> putting a presto (fast) tune when you are to cross and a slower tune when you should not cross would work. >> Any thoughts? >> >> >> On May 4, 2011, at 12:56 PM, Jedi wrote: >> >>> There's just one problem with that. I believe it's Australia. In fact, I'm sure it is. They have this bird called a lyrebird, and it has the ability to mimic the sounds it hears. So, if it hears this special bird song and mimics it, some blind person's life could be in danger if she or he doens't know how to read traffic. I've heard of other birds having a similar ability as the lyrebird. So, I'd vote for some other pleasant sound that's a little harder for wildlife to mimic such as a piano tune or something. >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> >>> Original message: >>>> I just remembered that in Madrid they have an other interesting system: where APS make this rather pleasant sound which sounds just like a bird singing. It's actually not annoying, and they have them literally all over the city. At this point it's just a sound that one identifies with Madrid. The bird also sings differently depending on how much time you have left to cross etc. The first time I heard it I thought it was funny, but the truth is that it doesn't bother people and it does the job. >>>> On May 3, 2011, at 11:26 PM, Robert Spangler wrote: >>> >>>>> Hello all, >>> >>>>> I, personally, do not have a problem with APS so long as they are spaced far enough apart and aren't too bothersome to the public. I also think that there should always be a button, in case those who find them annoying don't want to use them. I don't have an issue with their presence at high-traffic intersections or complex crossings such as those mentioned by other members of the list; however, imagine having APS at every intersection in a downtown area? That would be a nightmare for everyone! >>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Robby >>>>> On 5/2/2011 7:42 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>>> Hi Ashley and all, >>> >>>>>> I don't know exactly what NFB's official position is at this point. I >>>>>> personally am a big fan of audible traffic signals, for a few reasons. >>>>>> First, as you pointed out, there are several kinds of intersections >>>>>> where the auditory cue to cross is rather subtle-such as >>>>>> T-intersections, those where the parallel street is generally quiet or >>>>>> those with leading turn arrows, where you have to listen for the >>>>>> turning traffic to stop before crossing. I know it is possible to >>>>>> reliably cross these kinds of intersections using traffic cues alone, >>>>>> but the potential for mistakes (both missing the cue to cross and >>>>>> inadvertently crossing at the wrong time) is substantial especially >>>>>> for those who have had insufficient training. Second, as far as I >>>>>> know, there is no reliable way to tell when your walk signal is about >>>>>> to end. So if you come up to an intersection and the light is in your >>>>>> favor, there's no way to tell whether you will have enough time to >>>>>> cross before the light changes. The only really safe way to handle >>>>>> this is to wait until the light turns red and then green again, which >>>>>> can be inconvenient. Trust me, I've gambled on these and tried to >>>>>> cross without enough time-the result is scary not to mention >>>>>> embarrassing. Finally, though I know this logic is not always popular, >>>>>> I do think that if the sighted are given a clear cue to cross the >>>>>> street and it is not an undue hardship to make that signal accessible >>>>>> to the blind, it should be done. I can't imagine an intersection where >>>>>> sighted pedestrians are expected to watch the traffic without any kind >>>>>> of walk signal or light indicating when it was safe to cross. >>>>>> That being said, I don't think this necessarily has to be our biggest >>>>>> priority at this time. I also recognize that some blind travelers find >>>>>> audible signals bothersome and I would support some way of making the >>>>>> sound optional or implementing a tactile (i.e. vibrating) signal, >>>>>> which would also benefit the deaf-blind. >>> >>>>>> Arielle >>> >>>>>> On 5/2/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>> I thought it wasn't supposed to be enforced till like 2012? >>> >>> >>>>>>> On May 2, 2011, at 7:14 PM, wrote: >>> >>>>>>>> George, >>>>>>>> Actually the ACB seems as mad as ever; yes they won in the court; but the >>>>>>>> government has not produced accessible currency yet. >>>>>>>> Some do not feel the decision will be enforced. >>> >>>>>>>> Ashley >>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:57 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS >>> >>>>>>>> I believe the national is officially against expanding the use of APS. >>> >>>>>>>> As far as accessible currency, didn't the ACB already close that case in >>>>>>>> court? >>>>>>>> ACB V. US trasury 2009 or something like that? >>> >>> >>>>>>>> On May 2, 2011, at 6:36 PM, wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>> >>>>>>>>> I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they are >>>>>>>>> taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency >>>>>>>>> topics and really trashing the NFB and they don’t know the real positions >>>>>>>>> and facts. >>>>>>>>> They think NFB opposes both. >>>>>>>>> I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions? >>>>>>>>> Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. >>> >>>>>>>>> What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do you >>>>>>>>> think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? >>>>>>>>> Personally, I’d like the APS at intersections where you have to press the >>>>>>>>> walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk signal to know when >>>>>>>>> our time starts; you have to press the button in order to tell the >>>>>>>>> computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk phase to cross the >>>>>>>>> street. I think these are called actuated signals. These streets favor >>>>>>>>> drivers, not pedestrians; the busier streets get more traffic time. That >>>>>>>>> change of the signal is activated by a computer. >>> >>>>>>>>> At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, without a >>>>>>>>> button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues to hear to >>>>>>>>> cross. >>>>>>>>> I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn >>>>>>>>> lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some signals >>>>>>>>> even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk interval. >>> >>>>>>>>> So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient traffic >>>>>>>>> cues to cross the street. I’ve tried to learn how to cross T streets, >>>>>>>>> and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help there too. No >>>>>>>>> parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. >>> >>>>>>>>> Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on APS, >>>>>>>>> so I’m not sure what it is now. I certainly don’t want them everywhere, >>>>>>>>> but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see their use. >>> >>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed May 4 20:15:18 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 04 May 2011 15:15:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] what is Federationism Message-ID: <4dc1b3f1.6a4b340a.3312.13f9@mx.google.com> Thanks, Kirt! I completely agree with that philosophy. Now as I think about it, I think Dr. Jernigan stated the NFB philosophy very clearly when he said, "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the lack of understanding and education which exist. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a minor physical nuissance." Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: Hi, all. Here's an interesting, maybe somewhat philosophical question for all of you. Sorry for those of you who don't like these topics, you don't have to reply. I've always been an NFB member (since I was very little) but I was never really active in it. Oh sure, I followed some of the issues and had some oppinions, but I never really was that active in the NFB itself. Now, after I went to the NFB's Leadership and Advocacy program, I seem to have a new sense of support for the Federation and as I'm learning more, I want to be more active in it. I really am starting to understand and strongly believe in the NFB philosophy, or at least how I interpret it. So I want to ask you a threefold question: what does Federationism mean to you, what do you think the NFB philosophy is, and why are you a Federationist? I'm not going to tell you my opinion just yet, mainly because I don't really have a strong one. That's why I want to hear from you, think about your opinions, and finally decide what I believe. I look forward to hearing all of your thoughts! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed May 4 20:27:04 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 16:27:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] what is Federationism In-Reply-To: <4dc1b3f1.6a4b340a.3312.13f9@mx.google.com> References: <4dc1b3f1.6a4b340a.3312.13f9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Chris: Those are my thoughts exactly. On May 4, 2011, at 4:15 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Thanks, Kirt! I completely agree with that philosophy. Now as I think about it, I think Dr. Jernigan stated the NFB philosophy very clearly when he said, "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the lack of understanding and education which exist. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a minor physical nuissance." > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my Braille-Note > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Tue, 3 May 2011 16:26:30 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] what is Federationism > > Chris, > My philosophy is that being blind, if you have the propper training > and attitude, is just an inconvenience. Not a debilitating disease, > and not some amazingly wonderful blessing-just a minor annoyance. If > that's Federationism, I guess I'm a Federationist. But I think you'll > be surprised how diverse the NFB is in terms of philosophy, the extent > which blindness shapes members' personal identity, opinions on various > issues and so forth. I think the two things that basically every real > serious member of the Federation believes are (1) blindness can be a > mere inconvenience and (2) blind people are able to compete on equal > terms with sighted peers. I also think the majority, although not > all, are in favor of legal action to make technology accessible, to > one level or another. > Best regards, > Kirt > > On 5/3/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi, all. > > Here's an interesting, maybe somewhat philosophical question for > all of you. Sorry for those of you who don't like these topics, > you don't have to reply. I've always been an NFB member (since I > was very little) but I was never really active in it. Oh sure, I > followed some of the issues and had some oppinions, but I never > really was that active in the NFB itself. Now, after I went to > the NFB's Leadership and Advocacy program, I seem to have a new > sense of support for the Federation and as I'm learning more, I > want to be more active in it. I really am starting to understand > and strongly believe in the NFB philosophy, or at least how I > interpret it. So I want to ask you a threefold question: what > does Federationism mean to you, what do you think the NFB > philosophy is, and why are you a Federationist? I'm not going to > tell you my opinion just yet, mainly because I don't really have > a strong one. That's why I want to hear from you, think about > your opinions, and finally decide what I believe. I look forward > to hearing all of your thoughts! > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed May 4 20:26:38 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 04 May 2011 16:26:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: [nfbcs] NBP-Announce: Help name NBP's braille device! Message-ID: <4dc1b6c2.ce5f340a.11a9.13a0@mx.google.com> ---- Original Message ------ From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Stanford" )" References: <20110504162642.8011.39003@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Jedi, Yeah-that does make a lot of sense. I agree with most of what you're saying, I think. And that's really aweful about your bank account, were you able to get the money back? But, the thing is, not all ATMs talk. Even though that's a legal requirement, under the ADA, in my experience maybe 1 in 3 ATM machines actually let me plug in headphones and do my business in private. Should it be that way? Of course not-both legally andmorally. (in this case) But it is and, even though I've called my bank and politely asked them to do something about the issue, it's still a few months down the line...and that's just my bank, I know lots of others that don't have speech access software on any ATM. So what do we do about it in the meantime? Not withdraw our money? Spend hours and hours on end complaining about how we're entitled to a right we don't have? I'd rather spend the time figuring out a way to work within the system, as it stands now, so I can do what I need to do. I'm not saying we don't push for equal access, we should. But It's more important to figure out how to work within a system that will never be equal. If that means I have to go with a roommate or family member who I trust to withdraw money, even baring in mind the unfortunate experience you had, so be it. I wish I didn't have to, but I do, for now. But I see your point and it's a good one. I find myself concurring with you on this one, at least with your last email. But I think it's important to realize we're not entitled to society going out of their way to make sure we can keep up. It's our responsibility to adapt and find ways to accomplish what we need to because, let's face it, we'll never be on equal footing with our sighted peers. Blindness is a disability (call it an inconvenience if you like) and it brings with it many annoyances and problems to work around-and those problems will never go away. So rather than ask "what can the world do to accommodate us?" I think it's better to ask "how can we adapt to the world?" I'm a little concerned by the mentality that we're entitled to all this stuff, all this money (how many of us actually pay our own tuition? I know not me and I feel a little guilty about it.), all this extra technology and all this extra consideration to make the world more fair for us. Do we want equality, or do we want special treatment? They aren't the same thing. Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/4/11, Jedi wrote: > Kirt, > > I think the bottom line for me is this: can I do what I need to do in a > manner that's convenient for me and everyone else around me? Goes back > to that "Nature of Independence," doesn't it? You're right that not > every technology is going to be accessible to us and that we will have > to make work-arounds. No problem. We could say, going back to our "If > the world went sighted" discussion, that if nothing else, blindness > does encourage the development of problem-solving skills. Most of the > time, getting help, if that's what's needed, is perfectly acceptable > and sometimes easier or more convenient. For example, I personally find > that I'd rather be checked in by a human than the touchscreens because > it seems to me that touchscreen kiosks are kind of complicated (not the > technology, but the systems they run on) when it may be just as easy to > have an agent (or easier) check me in. And for now, that's fine given > that many airlines still have agents that can do that for anyone. But > for those airlines that don't even have agents, that's a problem. Sure, > you could work around it by checking in online (and that's probably not > a bad idea), but you may have instances where that is not possible for > whatever reason. So it really is inconvenient to the self and others to > track down the help you need and then find a way to get rid of them > politely so you can go about your business and let them get back to > theirs. the same issue goes for grocery lines. > > Here's where I draw the line though. I, generally speaking, refuse to > allow anyone to help me at an ATM unless I absolutely know they can be > trusted. There are few people I would entrust with this task, and none > of them are members of my family. I have had a bad experience with > someone who helped me: my sister stole money from my bank account when > she helped me with an aTM. Long story short, i became very wary of > assistance in this matter. So for things like that, I believe it's a > right of privacy that's at stake here, and everyone ought to have to > have that right whether they belong to the majority or not. Same with > voting. I personally prefer the privacy that comes with an accessible > vote than entrusting my vote to someone who may or may not agree with > me acting as a reader. If everyone else in the country has the right to > a private vote, so do I. Now, if I choose to have someone read my > ballot to me anyway, that's my choice, but I still have that right to > privacy thanks to the HAVA. > > Does any of this make sense? > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> To all, >> Here's my take...and, because I enjoy being an argumentative pain in >> the neck, I'm going to enjoy this. :) But before I start, I want to >> make it perfectly clear that I'm absolutely for the Technology Bill of >> Rights, making new technology accessible ought to be a legal right, >> and we are at a disadvantage when technology, like the touch screens >> Ashley mentioned are being put in store checkout lines, is used. >> But we need to remember we are a minority and the majority of the >> population shouldn't bend over backwards to accomodate us. While >> having all new technology come to us perfectly accessible is a >> laudable goal, it's probably never going to totally be realized. >> Should we have the right? Absolutely. Will we ever have it totally? >> Probably not...even with the Technology bill of rights, this dream of >> Universal Design will probably never be totally realized. That >> doesn't mean we don't work towards it-it just means we need to learn >> how to live in a world where there are inconveniences we have to deal >> with. We may have to stand in lines instead of using the independent >> self checkout-deal with it. We may need to get a reader if our >> textbooks aren't accessible-too bad. We may need to get assistance >> using keosks in the airport-I'm terribly sorry, that's life. e maybe >> might even have to go with a trusted family member or friend when >> using an ATM...what a terrible tragedy! I can't believe we're so >> mistreated, abused, ignored, neglected, forgotten, and treated like >> crap by the rest of the evil sighted world that doesn't even give a >> damn about us! Life is aweful! This new technology isn't >> accessible-woe is me, we're >> dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed! Noone even >> cares about us! This is a terrible, terrible, no-good world we live >> in, because we need to get people to help us use touch >> screens...whatever are we going to do? >> Now of course that was an exhageration, and I certainly want >> technology to be accessible. But rather than spend so much time >> complaining about it, let's do our best to get around the >> inaccessibility and live our lives! I'm all for pushing to make this >> new technology independently usable...but it's probably never going to >> totally happen, deal with it. There will always be inconveniences and >> annoyences associated with being blind-get used to it. The world will >> never perfectly cater to our every whim, get over it. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt > >> On 5/2/11, humberto wrote: >>> Sorry, but your message came out blank: Subject: Re: [Nabs-l] New >>> Technology And blindness, sent on Sonday may 1, 2011 at 9:33 AM > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Chris Nusbaum >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing >>> list>>> Date sent: Sun, 01 May 2011 09:33:12 -0400 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>> 5369%40netzero.net > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed May 4 20:33:59 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 04 May 2011 16:33:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China Message-ID: <4dc1b87b.c76b340a.2e7e.141d@mx.google.com> Hi, Crystal. Yes, the Zeigler still exists. I don't know who's sponsoring them now, since I didn't even know the Ziegler family stopped. Ross Hammond is the current editor and the headquarters has moved from New York to Darion, CT. Hope my ideas work! Since I read both magazines, I'll get to read your article! Yea! About the convention, I haven't gone to a national convention in a while, but I would love to go to one! Hope to go to one soon and see you there! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu May 5 01:37:51 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 04 May 2011 20:37:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China Message-ID: <4dc1f160.a64ee50a.43e0.3e5f@mx.google.com> Just=20wondering,=20who=20is=20that=20friend=20who's=20a=20writer=20for=20t= he=20 Ziegler?=20I=20might=20read=20his/her=20articles. Chris=20Nusbaum "A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abilit= ies=20motto) ---=20Sent=20from=20my=20Braille-Note =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Mary=20Fernandez=20=20 wrote: =20Hi=20Chris, =20Thanks=20for=20your=20suggestions.=20=20It's=20a=20great=20idea.=20=20I= =20read=20both=20 magazines=20myself =20as=20well.=20=20I=20am=20not=20sure=20if=20Matilda=20Ziegler=20still=20e= xist.=20=20I=20 received=20an=20E-mail =20from=20Ruth=20Davis,=20former=20editor,=20last=20year,=20and=20she=20tol= d=20me=20that=20 the=20Ziegler =20family=20do=20not=20want=20to=20continue=20to=20sponsor=20the=20magazine= =20anymore.=20=20 Instead, =20they=20prefer=20to=20invest=20the=20money=20to=20Yale=20medical=20center= =20to=20do=20 research=20on=20eye =20disease=20related=20subject.=20=20Not=20sure=20if=20Gregory=20Evanina=20= fought=20 over=20the=20case.=20=20I =20visited=20their=20headquarter=20=20office=20in=20New=20York=20when=20I=20= was=2019=20 which=20was=20in =202007. =20I=20spoke=20to=20Gary=20a=20few=20times=20and=20had=20some=20contacts=20= with=20him.=20=20 I'll=20try=20to =20write=20an=20article=20about=20Bethel=20Home=20later=20for=20sure.=20=20= Once=20again,=20 your=20ideas =20are=20great!=20Thanks. =20Running=20around=20the=20world=20is=20pretty=20fun=20but=20get=20exhaust= ed=20 sometime.=20=20To=20adjust =20the=20jet=20lag=20several=20times=20a=20year=20is=20not=20that=20easy.=20= =20Hope=20to=20see=20 you=20at=20the =20NFB=20convention=20sometime.=20=20I=20am=20still=20deciding=20whether=20= I=20should=20 go=20this=20year =20or=20next. =20Regards, =20Crystal =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Chris=20Nusbaum"=20=20wrote: =20=20Dear=20all, =20=20I=20am=20currently=20working=20in=20an=20orphanage=20for=20the=20blin= d=20in=20 Beijing. =20Bethel =20=20Home =20=20has=2045=20blind=20children,=20and=20it's=20a=20NGO=20orphanage=20run= =20by=20a=20french =20couple. =20=20Just =20=20wonder=20if=20any=20students=20will=20be=20interested=20to=20do=20int= ernship=20or =20volunteer =20=20work =20=20in=20Beijing.=20=20You=20may=20visit =20=20www.bethelchina.org =20=20Most=20of=20the=20kids=20speak=20English=20and=20Chinese.=20=20Many=20= of=20the =20volunteers=20are =20=20from =20=20Europe=20and=20North=20America.=20=20Too=20bad=20I=20have=20to=20retu= rn=20to=20school=20 in =20Stockholm =20=20this=20summer.=20=20Hope=20any=20of=20you=20can=20support=20and=20hel= p=20the=20kids=20in =20any=20way=20you =20=20can.=20=20Thanks. =20=20Sincerely, =20=20Crystal =20=20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20=20From:=20"Tina=20Hansen"=20 Good points, Marc. Thank you! The only thing I would challenge you on is this: if technology is made inaccessible, it isn't always that the designer of that technology doesn't want it to be accessible, but rather that either the person doesn't know how to make the spesific technology accessible or that he/she doesn't consider the accessibility of it, being that the market of this country is generally sighted-based. When I told our Web designer that the site for our foundation isn't accessible, she automatically apologized and started on redesigning the site in an accessible format, as have other Web designers I've been in contact with over the accessibility (or lack thereof) of their Web site. Therefore in my view, the technology being inaccessible when first introduced isn't discrimination. What is discrimination, however, is when people and groups of people like the NFB bring to a person or company's attention that the technology they produce isn't accessible and they don't listen, leaving their technology totally inaccessible by nonvisual means without regard to the millions of blind people they could be helping. To use another example, during the Civil Rights movement, white-owned businesses and people segregated everything from schools to lunch counters on a basis of "white" or "black" only, without regard to the feelings of the people being discriminated against. That's discrimination, and that's what I believe the Federation is there to fight. Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Workman" I=20totally=20agree,=20Cindy.=20=20I=20sometimes=20forget,=20too.=20=20In=20= fact,=20I=20 never=20really=20thought=20about=20it=20much=20until=20Crystal=20posted=20t= hat=20 information=20about=20the=20Bethel=20home.=20=20By=20the=20way,=20is=20the= =20Slate=20a=20 local=20magazine=20or=20a=20NABS=20one?=20If=20it's=20a=20NABS=20one,=20how= =20do=20I=20sign=20 up=20to=20get=20it=20and=20how=20will=20I=20get=20it:=20email,=20Braille,=20= online? Chris=20Nusbaum "A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abilit= ies=20motto) ---=20Sent=20from=20my=20Braille-Note =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Cindy=20Bennett=20=20 wrote: =20Dear=20Mary, =20Are=20you=20still=20in=20New=20Jersey?=20I=20think=20we=20added=20each=20= other=20on=20 Skype.=20=20Great,=20if =20you=20want=20to=20experience=20something=20new,=20I=20have=20loads=20of= =20ideas.=20=20 haha=20Don't =20scared,=20it=20won't=20kill=20you. =20Look=20forward=20to=20talk=20to=20you. =20Crystal =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Mary=20Fernandez"=20=20wrote: =20Hi=20Chris, =20Thanks=20for=20your=20suggestions.=20=20It's=20a=20great=20idea.=20=20I= =20read=20both=20 magazines =20myself =20as=20well.=20=20I=20am=20not=20sure=20if=20Matilda=20Ziegler=20still=20e= xist.=20=20I=20 received=20an =20E-mail =20from=20Ruth=20Davis,=20former=20editor,=20last=20year,=20and=20she=20tol= d=20me=20that=20 the =20Ziegler =20family=20do=20not=20want=20to=20continue=20to=20sponsor=20the=20magazine= =20anymore.=20=20 Instead, =20they=20prefer=20to=20invest=20the=20money=20to=20Yale=20medical=20center= =20to=20do=20 research=20on =20eye =20disease=20related=20subject.=20=20Not=20sure=20if=20Gregory=20Evanina=20= fought=20 over=20the =20case.=20=20I =20visited=20their=20headquarter=20=20office=20in=20New=20York=20when=20I=20= was=2019=20 which=20was=20in =202007. =20I=20spoke=20to=20Gary=20a=20few=20times=20and=20had=20some=20contacts=20= with=20him.=20=20 I'll=20try=20to =20write=20an=20article=20about=20Bethel=20Home=20later=20for=20sure.=20=20= Once=20again,=20 your=20ideas =20are=20great!=20Thanks. =20Running=20around=20the=20world=20is=20pretty=20fun=20but=20get=20exhaust= ed=20 sometime.=20=20To =20adjust =20the=20jet=20lag=20several=20times=20a=20year=20is=20not=20that=20easy.=20= =20Hope=20to=20see=20 you=20at=20the =20NFB=20convention=20sometime.=20=20I=20am=20still=20deciding=20whether=20= I=20should=20 go=20this =20year =20or=20next. =20Regards, =20Crystal =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Chris=20Nusbaum"=20=20wrote: =20=20Dear=20all, =20=20I=20am=20currently=20working=20in=20an=20orphanage=20for=20the=20blin= d=20in=20 Beijing. =20Bethel =20=20Home =20=20has=2045=20blind=20children,=20and=20it's=20a=20NGO=20orphanage=20run= =20by=20a=20french =20couple. =20=20Just =20=20wonder=20if=20any=20students=20will=20be=20interested=20to=20do=20int= ernship=20or =20volunteer =20=20work =20=20in=20Beijing.=20=20You=20may=20visit =20=20www.bethelchina.org =20=20Most=20of=20the=20kids=20speak=20English=20and=20Chinese.=20=20Many=20= of=20the =20volunteers=20are =20=20from =20=20Europe=20and=20North=20America.=20=20Too=20bad=20I=20have=20to=20retu= rn=20to=20school=20 in =20Stockholm =20=20this=20summer.=20=20Hope=20any=20of=20you=20can=20support=20and=20hel= p=20the=20kids=20in =20any=20way=20you =20=20can.=20=20Thanks. =20=20Sincerely, =20=20Crystal =20=20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20=20From:=20"Tina=20Hansen"=20 References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Liz Bottner Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 12:48:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Nabs May Conference Call: ...And we have a Tie! To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Hello all, Here are the results from the voting to determine the next conference call put on by the NABS membership committee. We had a tie between Sports & Recreation and Technology. We need your help to break the tie. To cast your vote please contact nabs.membership at gmail.com by tomorrow (Thursday). Thank you for your help in breaking the tie! Sincerely, NABS Membership committee Liz Bottner Co-chair, Nabs Membership Committee Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Thu May 5 02:38:56 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Wed, 04 May 2011 22:38:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Message-ID: <20110505023856.25826.35587@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Kirt, While you're working to get those accessible ATM's, there is such a thing as using a bank teller or getting cash back at a store when making a purchase. I find these methods much better than having someone read me the ATM most of the time. As for your assertion about us never being on an equal footing with the sighted, I disagree wholeheartedly. Yes, there will probably be accessibility barriers for quite some time, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we're unequal to our sighted peers. You've been saying all along that we need to find work-arounds where necessary, and that's what makes that equality really happen for us regardless of what technology does. In other words, it's our problem-solving skills that make us equal to the sighted and have been doing so for some time. It's also our expectations for ourselves that we do what the sighted do in terms of work, social behavior, etc. But there are times when doing what the sighted do necessitates some adaptation because, as Mike pointed out, we haven't been able to work around some problem. This isn't special treatment, nor is it asking the world to bend over backward for us. This isn't about entitlement versus a "pull yourself up by the boot straps" mentality. I hate to break it to you Kirt, but the world doesn't work in those kinds of extremes. Most of the time, it's a gray area we all have to navigate, and we're all doing the best we can given what we've got. And yes, by and large, I think society is trying to work with us. Society, by and large, loves to create solutions to make our world more accessible. The problem is that they're going about it the wrong way by thinking of things we don't need rather than working with us on things we do need. So the intent is there, but the good sense isn't. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Jedi, > Yeah-that does make a lot of sense. I agree with most of what > you're saying, I think. And that's really aweful about your bank > account, were you able to get the money back? > But, the thing is, not all ATMs talk. Even though that's a legal > requirement, under the ADA, in my experience maybe 1 in 3 ATM machines > actually let me plug in headphones and do my business in private. > Should it be that way? Of course not-both legally andmorally. (in > this case) But it is and, even though I've called my bank and > politely asked them to do something about the issue, it's still a few > months down the line...and that's just my bank, I know lots of others > that don't have speech access software on any ATM. So what do we do > about it in the meantime? Not withdraw our money? Spend hours and > hours on end complaining about how we're entitled to a right we don't > have? I'd rather spend the time figuring out a way to work within the > system, as it stands now, so I can do what I need to do. I'm not > saying we don't push for equal access, we should. But It's more > important to figure out how to work within a system that will never be > equal. If that means I have to go with a roommate or family member > who I trust to withdraw money, even baring in mind the unfortunate > experience you had, so be it. I wish I didn't have to, but I do, for > now. > But I see your point and it's a good one. I find myself concurring > with you on this one, at least with your last email. But I think it's > important to realize we're not entitled to society going out of their > way to make sure we can keep up. It's our responsibility to adapt and > find ways to accomplish what we need to because, let's face it, we'll > never be on equal footing with our sighted peers. Blindness is a > disability (call it an inconvenience if you like) and it brings with > it many annoyances and problems to work around-and those problems will > never go away. So rather than ask "what can the world do to > accommodate us?" I think it's better to ask "how can we adapt to the > world?" I'm a little concerned by the mentality that we're entitled > to all this stuff, all this money (how many of us actually pay our own > tuition? I know not me and I feel a little guilty about it.), all > this extra technology and all this extra consideration to make the > world more fair for us. Do we want equality, or do we want special > treatment? They aren't the same thing. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > On 5/4/11, Jedi wrote: >> Kirt, >> I think the bottom line for me is this: can I do what I need to do in a >> manner that's convenient for me and everyone else around me? Goes back >> to that "Nature of Independence," doesn't it? You're right that not >> every technology is going to be accessible to us and that we will have >> to make work-arounds. No problem. We could say, going back to our "If >> the world went sighted" discussion, that if nothing else, blindness >> does encourage the development of problem-solving skills. Most of the >> time, getting help, if that's what's needed, is perfectly acceptable >> and sometimes easier or more convenient. For example, I personally find >> that I'd rather be checked in by a human than the touchscreens because >> it seems to me that touchscreen kiosks are kind of complicated (not the >> technology, but the systems they run on) when it may be just as easy to >> have an agent (or easier) check me in. And for now, that's fine given >> that many airlines still have agents that can do that for anyone. But >> for those airlines that don't even have agents, that's a problem. Sure, >> you could work around it by checking in online (and that's probably not >> a bad idea), but you may have instances where that is not possible for >> whatever reason. So it really is inconvenient to the self and others to >> track down the help you need and then find a way to get rid of them >> politely so you can go about your business and let them get back to >> theirs. the same issue goes for grocery lines. >> Here's where I draw the line though. I, generally speaking, refuse to >> allow anyone to help me at an ATM unless I absolutely know they can be >> trusted. There are few people I would entrust with this task, and none >> of them are members of my family. I have had a bad experience with >> someone who helped me: my sister stole money from my bank account when >> she helped me with an aTM. Long story short, i became very wary of >> assistance in this matter. So for things like that, I believe it's a >> right of privacy that's at stake here, and everyone ought to have to >> have that right whether they belong to the majority or not. Same with >> voting. I personally prefer the privacy that comes with an accessible >> vote than entrusting my vote to someone who may or may not agree with >> me acting as a reader. If everyone else in the country has the right to >> a private vote, so do I. Now, if I choose to have someone read my >> ballot to me anyway, that's my choice, but I still have that right to >> privacy thanks to the HAVA. >> Does any of this make sense? >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> Original message: >>> To all, >>> Here's my take...and, because I enjoy being an argumentative pain in >>> the neck, I'm going to enjoy this. :) But before I start, I want to >>> make it perfectly clear that I'm absolutely for the Technology Bill of >>> Rights, making new technology accessible ought to be a legal right, >>> and we are at a disadvantage when technology, like the touch screens >>> Ashley mentioned are being put in store checkout lines, is used. >>> But we need to remember we are a minority and the majority of the >>> population shouldn't bend over backwards to accomodate us. While >>> having all new technology come to us perfectly accessible is a >>> laudable goal, it's probably never going to totally be realized. >>> Should we have the right? Absolutely. Will we ever have it totally? >>> Probably not...even with the Technology bill of rights, this dream of >>> Universal Design will probably never be totally realized. That >>> doesn't mean we don't work towards it-it just means we need to learn >>> how to live in a world where there are inconveniences we have to deal >>> with. We may have to stand in lines instead of using the independent >>> self checkout-deal with it. We may need to get a reader if our >>> textbooks aren't accessible-too bad. We may need to get assistance >>> using keosks in the airport-I'm terribly sorry, that's life. e maybe >>> might even have to go with a trusted family member or friend when >>> using an ATM...what a terrible tragedy! I can't believe we're so >>> mistreated, abused, ignored, neglected, forgotten, and treated like >>> crap by the rest of the evil sighted world that doesn't even give a >>> damn about us! Life is aweful! This new technology isn't >>> accessible-woe is me, we're >>> dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed! Noone even >>> cares about us! This is a terrible, terrible, no-good world we live >>> in, because we need to get people to help us use touch >>> screens...whatever are we going to do? >>> Now of course that was an exhageration, and I certainly want >>> technology to be accessible. But rather than spend so much time >>> complaining about it, let's do our best to get around the >>> inaccessibility and live our lives! I'm all for pushing to make this >>> new technology independently usable...but it's probably never going to >>> totally happen, deal with it. There will always be inconveniences and >>> annoyences associated with being blind-get used to it. The world will >>> never perfectly cater to our every whim, get over it. >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> On 5/2/11, humberto wrote: >>>> Sorry, but your message came out blank: Subject: Re: [Nabs-l] New >>>> Technology And blindness, sent on Sonday may 1, 2011 at 9:33 AM >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Chris Nusbaum >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>> list>>>> Date sent: Sun, 01 May 2011 09:33:12 -0400 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>>> 5369%40netzero.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Thu May 5 03:40:12 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 21:40:12 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: <20110505023856.25826.35587@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> References: <20110505023856.25826.35587@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Jedi, Fair enough-you use bank tellers or get cash back at a store, I use friends I trust at an atm...either way works. As for equality and entitlement-what I should've said was we'll never have equal access. By the time touch screen accessibility comes around, there'll be some other inaccessible technology we have to worry about-when that's accessible, something else inaccessible will come along ad noseum. So we'll always be fighting an uphill battle and, in that way, we'll never be equal. That's what I meant. Unfortunately, the world's structured so that those with greater problem solving skills have a greater chance to succeed-it's true for sighted people and especially true for us. So, because we'll have to solve problems the sighted won't have to, we're not on an equal footing and we never will be. That means, as sad as this is, that an average blind person has to have an above-average ability to solve problems in order to work an average job-which is probably the biggest reason our unemployment rate is so high. That doesn't mean we can't compete on terms of equality-it just means we have to work damn hard to do so, thus making us not equal with our sighted peers. While blindness _can_ be reduced to a mere nuisence with propper training, the fact that we need to get training because of our blindness in order for blindness to only be an inconvenience shows that we aren't equal with the sighted world around us. Yes, we can compete on equal terms, although only a comparatively small percentage of us manage to do it. But blindness is a disability, often a disadvantage, and even when reduced to a mere nuisence it can still be a royal pain in the neck. (so I'm told, I've not gotten all the training I need yet) And, to be honest, based on the entitlement attitude I see in most of my blind friends, I'm not really hopeful we'll ever, as a whole, compete on equal terms with the sighted world. Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/4/11, Jedi wrote: > Kirt, > > While you're working to get those accessible ATM's, there is such a > thing as using a bank teller or getting cash back at a store when > making a purchase. I find these methods much better than having someone > read me the ATM most of the time. > > As for your assertion about us never being on an equal footing with the > sighted, I disagree wholeheartedly. Yes, there will probably be > accessibility barriers for quite some time, but that doesn't > necessarily mean that we're unequal to our sighted peers. You've been > saying all along that we need to find work-arounds where necessary, and > that's what makes that equality really happen for us regardless of what > technology does. In other words, it's our problem-solving skills that > make us equal to the sighted and have been doing so for some time. It's > also our expectations for ourselves that we do what the sighted do in > terms of work, social behavior, etc. But there are times when doing > what the sighted do necessitates some adaptation because, as Mike > pointed out, we haven't been able to work around some problem. This > isn't special treatment, nor is it asking the world to bend over > backward for us. This isn't about entitlement versus a "pull yourself > up by the boot straps" mentality. I hate to break it to you Kirt, but > the world doesn't work in those kinds of extremes. Most of the time, > it's a gray area we all have to navigate, and we're all doing the best > we can given what we've got. And yes, by and large, I think society is > trying to work with us. Society, by and large, loves to create > solutions to make our world more accessible. The problem is that > they're going about it the wrong way by thinking of things we don't > need rather than working with us on things we do need. So the intent is > there, but the good sense isn't. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> Jedi, >> Yeah-that does make a lot of sense. I agree with most of what >> you're saying, I think. And that's really aweful about your bank >> account, were you able to get the money back? >> But, the thing is, not all ATMs talk. Even though that's a legal >> requirement, under the ADA, in my experience maybe 1 in 3 ATM machines >> actually let me plug in headphones and do my business in private. >> Should it be that way? Of course not-both legally andmorally. (in >> this case) But it is and, even though I've called my bank and >> politely asked them to do something about the issue, it's still a few >> months down the line...and that's just my bank, I know lots of others >> that don't have speech access software on any ATM. So what do we do >> about it in the meantime? Not withdraw our money? Spend hours and >> hours on end complaining about how we're entitled to a right we don't >> have? I'd rather spend the time figuring out a way to work within the >> system, as it stands now, so I can do what I need to do. I'm not >> saying we don't push for equal access, we should. But It's more >> important to figure out how to work within a system that will never be >> equal. If that means I have to go with a roommate or family member >> who I trust to withdraw money, even baring in mind the unfortunate >> experience you had, so be it. I wish I didn't have to, but I do, for >> now. >> But I see your point and it's a good one. I find myself concurring >> with you on this one, at least with your last email. But I think it's >> important to realize we're not entitled to society going out of their >> way to make sure we can keep up. It's our responsibility to adapt and >> find ways to accomplish what we need to because, let's face it, we'll >> never be on equal footing with our sighted peers. Blindness is a >> disability (call it an inconvenience if you like) and it brings with >> it many annoyances and problems to work around-and those problems will >> never go away. So rather than ask "what can the world do to >> accommodate us?" I think it's better to ask "how can we adapt to the >> world?" I'm a little concerned by the mentality that we're entitled >> to all this stuff, all this money (how many of us actually pay our own >> tuition? I know not me and I feel a little guilty about it.), all >> this extra technology and all this extra consideration to make the >> world more fair for us. Do we want equality, or do we want special >> treatment? They aren't the same thing. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt > >> On 5/4/11, Jedi wrote: >>> Kirt, > >>> I think the bottom line for me is this: can I do what I need to do in a >>> manner that's convenient for me and everyone else around me? Goes back >>> to that "Nature of Independence," doesn't it? You're right that not >>> every technology is going to be accessible to us and that we will have >>> to make work-arounds. No problem. We could say, going back to our "If >>> the world went sighted" discussion, that if nothing else, blindness >>> does encourage the development of problem-solving skills. Most of the >>> time, getting help, if that's what's needed, is perfectly acceptable >>> and sometimes easier or more convenient. For example, I personally find >>> that I'd rather be checked in by a human than the touchscreens because >>> it seems to me that touchscreen kiosks are kind of complicated (not the >>> technology, but the systems they run on) when it may be just as easy to >>> have an agent (or easier) check me in. And for now, that's fine given >>> that many airlines still have agents that can do that for anyone. But >>> for those airlines that don't even have agents, that's a problem. Sure, >>> you could work around it by checking in online (and that's probably not >>> a bad idea), but you may have instances where that is not possible for >>> whatever reason. So it really is inconvenient to the self and others to >>> track down the help you need and then find a way to get rid of them >>> politely so you can go about your business and let them get back to >>> theirs. the same issue goes for grocery lines. > >>> Here's where I draw the line though. I, generally speaking, refuse to >>> allow anyone to help me at an ATM unless I absolutely know they can be >>> trusted. There are few people I would entrust with this task, and none >>> of them are members of my family. I have had a bad experience with >>> someone who helped me: my sister stole money from my bank account when >>> she helped me with an aTM. Long story short, i became very wary of >>> assistance in this matter. So for things like that, I believe it's a >>> right of privacy that's at stake here, and everyone ought to have to >>> have that right whether they belong to the majority or not. Same with >>> voting. I personally prefer the privacy that comes with an accessible >>> vote than entrusting my vote to someone who may or may not agree with >>> me acting as a reader. If everyone else in the country has the right to >>> a private vote, so do I. Now, if I choose to have someone read my >>> ballot to me anyway, that's my choice, but I still have that right to >>> privacy thanks to the HAVA. > >>> Does any of this make sense? > >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi > >>> Original message: >>>> To all, >>>> Here's my take...and, because I enjoy being an argumentative pain in >>>> the neck, I'm going to enjoy this. :) But before I start, I want to >>>> make it perfectly clear that I'm absolutely for the Technology Bill of >>>> Rights, making new technology accessible ought to be a legal right, >>>> and we are at a disadvantage when technology, like the touch screens >>>> Ashley mentioned are being put in store checkout lines, is used. >>>> But we need to remember we are a minority and the majority of the >>>> population shouldn't bend over backwards to accomodate us. While >>>> having all new technology come to us perfectly accessible is a >>>> laudable goal, it's probably never going to totally be realized. >>>> Should we have the right? Absolutely. Will we ever have it totally? >>>> Probably not...even with the Technology bill of rights, this dream of >>>> Universal Design will probably never be totally realized. That >>>> doesn't mean we don't work towards it-it just means we need to learn >>>> how to live in a world where there are inconveniences we have to deal >>>> with. We may have to stand in lines instead of using the independent >>>> self checkout-deal with it. We may need to get a reader if our >>>> textbooks aren't accessible-too bad. We may need to get assistance >>>> using keosks in the airport-I'm terribly sorry, that's life. e maybe >>>> might even have to go with a trusted family member or friend when >>>> using an ATM...what a terrible tragedy! I can't believe we're so >>>> mistreated, abused, ignored, neglected, forgotten, and treated like >>>> crap by the rest of the evil sighted world that doesn't even give a >>>> damn about us! Life is aweful! This new technology isn't >>>> accessible-woe is me, we're >>>> dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed! Noone even >>>> cares about us! This is a terrible, terrible, no-good world we live >>>> in, because we need to get people to help us use touch >>>> screens...whatever are we going to do? >>>> Now of course that was an exhageration, and I certainly want >>>> technology to be accessible. But rather than spend so much time >>>> complaining about it, let's do our best to get around the >>>> inaccessibility and live our lives! I'm all for pushing to make this >>>> new technology independently usable...but it's probably never going to >>>> totally happen, deal with it. There will always be inconveniences and >>>> annoyences associated with being blind-get used to it. The world will >>>> never perfectly cater to our every whim, get over it. >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt > >>>> On 5/2/11, humberto wrote: >>>>> Sorry, but your message came out blank: Subject: Re: [Nabs-l] New >>>>> Technology And blindness, sent on Sonday may 1, 2011 at 9:33 AM > >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Chris Nusbaum >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>>> list>>>>> Date sent: Sun, 01 May 2011 09:33:12 -0400 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>>>> 5369%40netzero.net > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dandrews at visi.com Thu May 5 16:31:35 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 11:31:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Deputy Director Position Florida Rehab Message-ID: FYI: People would like to get a good Federationist into a position like this... Dave > >---------- >From: Hildreth, Joyce >Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 12:25 PM >To: #$DBS_ALL_USERS >Subject: Deputy Director Position > >Hello All, >DBS is currently identifying candidates for consideration of the DBS >Deputy Director position. This is a highly responsible >administrative position that reports directly to the Division Director. > > >If you, or someone you know, is interested in being considered for >this position, please send your resume by May 11, 2011, to: > > > > Sheila White, HR Administrator, at: > >E-mail: sheila.white at dbs.fldoe.org > >The primary duties of the Deputy Director include: > > >Provides direction on administrative and program functions within the Division > > > >Works closely with the Director and Personnel Administrator on the >management of human resources including organizational changes, >allocation of personnel, and actions related to recruitment, >selection, transfer, reassignment, promotions and disciplinary actions > > > >Oversees the development and tracking of the DBS Strategic Plan and >related projects and ensures alignment with the State Plan and >findings of the Comprehensive Needs Assessment conducted every three years > > > >Works with auditors from the Department, Auditor General, and US >Department of Education to coordinate audit activities, the >Division's response and tracking of corrective actions > > > >Participates in legislative activities including presentations to >the Florida Legislature, preparation of proposed legislative bills, >and response to inquiries by legislators and other State officials > > > >Coordinates the submission of all federal and state reports and >ensures reports are submitted timely and reflect data that is based >on logical rationale > > > >Represents the Director in all matters including attendance at >meetings with other agencies, such as the Department of Financial >Services, Department of Management Services and Department of Education > > > >Collects, monitors and analyzes data in order to evaluate the >performance of the Division and makes recommendations for >corrective actions necessary to quality services and the Division's operation > > > >Joyce Hildreth, Director > >Florida Division of Blind Services > >850.245.0300 > >Joyce.Hildreth at dbs.fldoe.org > David Andrews and long white cane Harry, dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 From agrima at nbp.org Thu May 5 20:06:22 2011 From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 16:06:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] May print/braille book: Lilly! Message-ID: <008c01cc0b5f$e87c7150$b97553f0$@org> May 2011 Book Club Selection Lilly's Purple Plastic Purse Kevin Henkes Print/braille edition, $17.99 In contracted braille Ages 4-8 Lilly the mouse loves everything about school - even the squeaky chalk and the cafeteria food. But most of all, she idolizes her teacher, Mr. Slinger, who wears hip clothes and greets Lilly's artistic achievements with an impressed, "Wow!" When she comes to school flaunting three jingly quarters, movie-star glasses and a purple plastic purse that plays a jaunty tune when opened, she interrupts Mr. Slinger's lessons on "Types of Cheese" and words that rhyme with "mice." After one too many disruptions, he confiscates the purse for the rest of the day. Lilly, humiliated, takes revenge by slipping a mean drawing into Mr. Slinger's book bag - only to open her purse and find a kind note from her hero. She's filled with remorse and has to find a way to make things right again. Caldecott honoree Henkes understands the roller-coaster emotions of small children. He conveys Lilly's enthusiasm for her prize possessions, but astutely shows that Lilly goes too far when she acts up in class. He offers useful, timeless advice for apologizing to a friend and resolving a conflict. To order or read more about this book online, visit http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/BC1105-LILLY.html ****** To order any books, send payment to: NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 520. Or order any of our books online at http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html . From dandrews at visi.com Thu May 5 20:42:22 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 15:42:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Service release 2 for DBT 11.1 available Message-ID: > >Dear duxnews and duxuser listers, > >The second service release for DBT 11.1, i.e. DBT 11.1 SR2, has been >released and is now available on the Web for downloading to update >existing DBT 11.1 installations. Users of DBT 11.1 should select >"Help / Check for Updates" to obtain this free update. > >Those with existing licenses for versions prior to 11.1 can use >Help/Check for Updates (Alt-H-U) to download DBT 11.1 and check if >their licenses are within the eligibility period for receiving DBT >11.1 as a free update. Those with licenses outside of the >eligibility period can run DBT 11.1 as a time-limited trial for up to 45 days. > >DBT 11.1 can also be downloaded from our main web site home page: > > http://www.duxburysystems.com > >The DBT 11.1 download will run as a demo version for those without a license. > >This is primarily a maintenance release, but addresses the following issues: > >-- The DBT table formatter now handles tabular input from Scientific >Notebook and Infty Reader. >-- Reliability while switching between print and braille views of >tabular material has been improved. >-- Arabic braille-to-print now supports contracted braille. >-- Mathematics braille translation for British, American, and UEB >math has been improved. >-- Dzongkha table now includes the 2010 Code Revision. >-- Tamil table has minor improvements. >-- Armenian (Eastern and Western) print-to-braille translations have >more improvements. >-- JAWS scripts have stability and usability improvements: the >translated line voice has been set to be a bit slower than the >normal reading voice. >-- Nippon Telesoft "Super Gemini" embosser is supported. This unit >embosses braille and prints inkprint for many languages. >-- The DBT Installer improves the migration of embosser definitions >"for all users" from previous DBT versions for Windows operating >systems with user account controls (Vista and Windows 7). > >Note: Installations on servers, where only slsService is used, >should forgo updating the server to SR2. There's no point, because >slsService.exe hasn't changed. So the server can go on running SR1 >while clients update to SR2. > >For a more detailed list, see http://www.duxburysystems.com/dbtwhst.asp. > >Regards to all, >Joe Sullivan >President, Duxbury Systems, Inc. > >* * * >* This message is via list duxnews at freelists.org. >* To unsubscribe, send a blank message with >* unsubscribe >* as the subject to duxnews-request at freelists.org . You may also >* subscribe, unsubscribe, and set vacation mode and other subscription >* options by visiting http://www.freelists.org. The list archive >* is also located there. >* Duxbury Systems' web site is http://www.duxburysystems.com >* * * David Andrews and long white cane Harry, dandrews at visi.com Follow me on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920 From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu May 5 22:15:11 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 17:15:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Message-ID: <4dc31360.a54ee50a.1e5f.4514@mx.google.com> I agree! I was just thinking, maybe you could check in online for airlines... if their site is accessible. But if not, most blind people have a reader, right? Maybe you can ask your reader (if you trust them) to read you the site (if it's not accessible) and you can tell the reader what you want to click on. Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note ----- Original Message ----- From: Jedi wrote: Sorry, but your message came out blank: Subject: Re: [Nabs-l] New Technology And blindness, sent on Sonday may 1, 2011 at 9:33 AM ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Nusbaum References: <4dc31360.a54ee50a.1e5f.4514@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <95BFEB3A-11B1-49AB-AF3A-488903769E9C@panix.com> Yup, that's the way I do it. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 5, 2011, at 15:15, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > I agree! I was just thinking, maybe you could check in online for airlines... if their site is accessible. But if not, most blind people have a reader, right? Maybe you can ask your reader (if you trust them) to read you the site (if it's not accessible) and you can tell the reader what you want to click on. > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my Braille-Note > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Date sent: Wed, 04 May 2011 12:26:42 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > Kirt, > > I think the bottom line for me is this: can I do what I need to do in a > manner that's convenient for me and everyone else around me? Goes back > to that "Nature of Independence," doesn't it? You're right that not > every technology is going to be accessible to us and that we will have > to make work-arounds. No problem. We could say, going back to our "If > the world went sighted" discussion, that if nothing else, blindness > does encourage the development of problem-solving skills. Most of the > time, getting help, if that's what's needed, is perfectly acceptable > and sometimes easier or more convenient. For example, I personally find > that I'd rather be checked in by a human than the touchscreens because > it seems to me that touchscreen kiosks are kind of complicated (not the > technology, but the systems they run on) when it may be just as easy to > have an agent (or easier) check me in. And for now, that's fine given > that many airlines still have agents that can do that for anyone. But > for those airlines that don't even have agents, that's a problem. Sure, > you could work around it by checking in online (and that's probably not > a bad idea), but you may have instances where that is not possible for > whatever reason. So it really is inconvenient to the self and others to > track down the help you need and then find a way to get rid of them > politely so you can go about your business and let them get back to > theirs. the same issue goes for grocery lines. > > Here's where I draw the line though. I, generally speaking, refuse to > allow anyone to help me at an ATM unless I absolutely know they can be > trusted. There are few people I would entrust with this task, and none > of them are members of my family. I have had a bad experience with > someone who helped me: my sister stole money from my bank account when > she helped me with an aTM. Long story short, i became very wary of > assistance in this matter. So for things like that, I believe it's a > right of privacy that's at stake here, and everyone ought to have to > have that right whether they belong to the majority or not. Same with > voting. I personally prefer the privacy that comes with an accessible > vote than entrusting my vote to someone who may or may not agree with > me acting as a reader. If everyone else in the country has the right to > a private vote, so do I. Now, if I choose to have someone read my > ballot to me anyway, that's my choice, but I still have that right to > privacy thanks to the HAVA. > > Does any of this make sense? > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: > To all, > Here's my take...and, because I enjoy being an argumentative pain in > the neck, I'm going to enjoy this. :) But before I start, I want to > make it perfectly clear that I'm absolutely for the Technology Bill of > Rights, making new technology accessible ought to be a legal right, > and we are at a disadvantage when technology, like the touch screens > Ashley mentioned are being put in store checkout lines, is used. > But we need to remember we are a minority and the majority of the > population shouldn't bend over backwards to accomodate us. While > having all new technology come to us perfectly accessible is a > laudable goal, it's probably never going to totally be realized. > Should we have the right? Absolutely. Will we ever have it totally? > Probably not...even with the Technology bill of rights, this dream of > Universal Design will probably never be totally realized. That > doesn't mean we don't work towards it-it just means we need to learn > how to live in a world where there are inconveniences we have to deal > with. We may have to stand in lines instead of using the independent > self checkout-deal with it. We may need to get a reader if our > textbooks aren't accessible-too bad. We may need to get assistance > using keosks in the airport-I'm terribly sorry, that's life. e maybe > might even have to go with a trusted family member or friend when > using an ATM...what a terrible tragedy! I can't believe we're so > mistreated, abused, ignored, neglected, forgotten, and treated like > crap by the rest of the evil sighted world that doesn't even give a > damn about us! Life is aweful! This new technology isn't > accessible-woe is me, we're > dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed! Noone even > cares about us! This is a terrible, terrible, no-good world we live > in, because we need to get people to help us use touch > screens...whatever are we going to do? > Now of course that was an exhageration, and I certainly want > technology to be accessible. But rather than spend so much time > complaining about it, let's do our best to get around the > inaccessibility and live our lives! I'm all for pushing to make this > new technology independently usable...but it's probably never going to > totally happen, deal with it. There will always be inconveniences and > annoyences associated with being blind-get used to it. The world will > never perfectly cater to our every whim, get over it. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/2/11, humberto wrote: > Sorry, but your message came out blank: Subject: Re: [Nabs-l] New > Technology And blindness, sent on Sonday may 1, 2011 at 9:33 AM > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chris Nusbaum To: National Association of Blind Students mailing > list Date sent: Sun, 01 May 2011 09:33:12 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa > 5369%40netzero.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind > jedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Fri May 6 00:22:06 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 17:22:06 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College Message-ID: <0D8ADDC8AA11406DABC70F388D5A44D0@stanford.edu> What do you guys think of this? http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ From joshkart12 at gmail.com Fri May 6 00:49:23 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 20:49:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College In-Reply-To: <0D8ADDC8AA11406DABC70F388D5A44D0@stanford.edu> References: <0D8ADDC8AA11406DABC70F388D5A44D0@stanford.edu> Message-ID: I think the article was awesome, thanks, Nicole! I also think it shows us that we blind people can do anything we set our minds to, and, therefore, we can be equal to our sighted peers. Thoughts? Josh From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri May 6 00:51:49 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 18:51:49 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College In-Reply-To: <0D8ADDC8AA11406DABC70F388D5A44D0@stanford.edu> References: <0D8ADDC8AA11406DABC70F388D5A44D0@stanford.edu> Message-ID: Not perfect, but over-all I really enjoyed it...althoug that's more a credit to Matt than the reporters-it seems like they tried to make this a typical "oh my gosh the blind kid's amazing!" article, but he was able to toan it down a lot...just my thoughts. :) On 5/5/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > What do you guys think of this? > http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri May 6 00:52:56 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 18:52:56 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College In-Reply-To: References: <0D8ADDC8AA11406DABC70F388D5A44D0@stanford.edu> Message-ID: Josh, Can be equal, not equal by default. On 5/5/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Not perfect, but over-all I really enjoyed it...althoug that's more a > credit to Matt than the reporters-it seems like they tried to make > this a typical "oh my gosh the blind kid's amazing!" article, but he > was able to toan it down a lot...just my thoughts. :) > > On 5/5/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: >> What do you guys think of this? >> http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Fri May 6 00:57:50 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 20:57:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College In-Reply-To: References: <0D8ADDC8AA11406DABC70F388D5A44D0@stanford.edu> Message-ID: Oh I see your point, thanks. :) Josh On 5/5/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Josh, > Can be equal, not equal by default. > > On 5/5/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Not perfect, but over-all I really enjoyed it...althoug that's more a >> credit to Matt than the reporters-it seems like they tried to make >> this a typical "oh my gosh the blind kid's amazing!" article, but he >> was able to toan it down a lot...just my thoughts. :) >> >> On 5/5/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: >>> What do you guys think of this? >>> http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > -- The Ever-curious Master Yoda Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Fri May 6 01:01:04 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 18:01:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College References: <0D8ADDC8AA11406DABC70F388D5A44D0@stanford.edu> Message-ID: One tiny thing that was incorrect. Matt did not get his current guide dog, Loti, when he was 11. He got his first guide dog when he was 11, and Loti is his third. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 5:51 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College > Not perfect, but over-all I really enjoyed it...althoug that's more a > credit to Matt than the reporters-it seems like they tried to make > this a typical "oh my gosh the blind kid's amazing!" article, but he > was able to toan it down a lot...just my thoughts. :) > > On 5/5/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: >> What do you guys think of this? >> http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Fri May 6 01:23:56 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 21:23:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College In-Reply-To: References: <0D8ADDC8AA11406DABC70F388D5A44D0@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <4BA6E6BE-EA75-48D3-BCD6-BF5295C8C843@gmail.com> Agree it seemed too much like a "oh, he's blind so he must be so gifted…" but the attitude of the student in question kinda brought that down to more of a normal level. On May 5, 2011, at 8:51 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Not perfect, but over-all I really enjoyed it...althoug that's more a > credit to Matt than the reporters-it seems like they tried to make > this a typical "oh my gosh the blind kid's amazing!" article, but he > was able to toan it down a lot...just my thoughts. :) > > On 5/5/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: >> What do you guys think of this? >> http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From z.dreicer at emissives.com Fri May 6 01:58:14 2011 From: z.dreicer at emissives.com (dreicer, zachary) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 19:58:14 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College Message-ID: i like it greatly. Thanks for sharing! Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" Hi dear notetaker users: I'm going to graduate out of high school, and all the assistive technology such as my BrailleNote will have to be return to the school district as it isn't mine. With that in mind, I'm in the process of looking at notetakers which one is better, and which one might really soothe my needs in college. I'm also looking at prices. Do you know of any price list or comparison that I can find? Do you know any exact prices for notetakers such as the BrailleNote mPower, BrailleNote apex, and the Pacmate Omni with a Braille display? I'm considering 3 choices: An apex with a Braille style keyboard and 18 cell braille display, a BrailleNote mPower with the same specs as the apex, or a Pacmate QX 440 (With a querty keyboard and a 40 cell Braille display) which one of my best friends has and loves it -- But anyways, I would like some info on this. I've seen discussions on the list about these devices, but I would like some more information. Cheers, Humberto From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Fri May 6 03:37:00 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 20:37:00 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] notetaker prices References: Message-ID: <6F91F2606648490589163425FE40C742@stanford.edu> If you get a BrailleNote, you should definitely get an Apex instead of an MPower. Are you looking for a notetaker that is more like a computer or more of a closed system? ----- Original Message ----- From: "humberto" To: Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 8:30 PM Subject: [nabs-l] notetaker prices > Hi dear notetaker users: > I'm going to graduate out of high school, and all the assistive technology > such as my BrailleNote will have to be return to the school district as it > isn't mine. With that in mind, I'm in the process of looking at notetakers > which one is better, and which one might really soothe my needs in > college. I'm also looking at prices. Do you know of any price list or > comparison that I can find? Do you know any exact prices for notetakers > such as the BrailleNote mPower, BrailleNote apex, and the Pacmate Omni > with a Braille display? I'm considering 3 choices: An apex with a Braille > style keyboard and 18 cell braille display, a BrailleNote mPower with the > same specs as the apex, or a Pacmate QX 440 (With a querty keyboard and a > 40 cell Braille display) which one of my best friends has and loves it -- > But anyways, I would like some info on this. I've seen discussions on the > list about these devices, but I would like some more information. > Cheers, Humberto > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri May 6 03:50:28 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 23:50:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] notetaker prices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <889034505F6D4F6EAFCE99E57ABC8563@OwnerPC> Humberto, Get the latest technology; go with the Apex if you get a braille Note. I don't know of a price comparison. Whether freedom scientific, fs, or Humanware they are expensive. Brialle Note is about $6000 for a 32 cell display. I imagine a pacMate is about that as well. Just call the distributors to find out prices and make your own list. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: humberto Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 11:30 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] notetaker prices Hi dear notetaker users: I'm going to graduate out of high school, and all the assistive technology such as my BrailleNote will have to be return to the school district as it isn't mine. With that in mind, I'm in the process of looking at notetakers which one is better, and which one might really soothe my needs in college. I'm also looking at prices. Do you know of any price list or comparison that I can find? Do you know any exact prices for notetakers such as the BrailleNote mPower, BrailleNote apex, and the Pacmate Omni with a Braille display? I'm considering 3 choices: An apex with a Braille style keyboard and 18 cell braille display, a BrailleNote mPower with the same specs as the apex, or a Pacmate QX 440 (With a querty keyboard and a 40 cell Braille display) which one of my best friends has and loves it -- But anyways, I would like some info on this. I've seen discussions on the list about these devices, but I would like some more information. Cheers, Humberto _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri May 6 06:49:19 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 00:49:19 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Itunes and RFB app problem Message-ID: Dear nabs list, I'm hoping some of you ipod hobbiests can help me out here. I just bought the RFB Ipod app, and I'm trying to transfer books I've downloaded from my computer to my ipod. But, unfortunately, I can't find the "share" button on the itunes page anywhere, even after I've selected RFB&D from my apps list. (I couldn't figure out how to choose the device originally-mine was the only one that came up and I can't find a "devices" pain anywhere) So...how in the name of Marc Maurer am I supposed to transfer this dang thing? Warmest regards, Kirt From wujing19861209 at hotmail.com Fri May 6 07:16:10 2011 From: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Jing_Crystal_Wu_=E5=90=B4=E6=99=B6?=) Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 09:16:10 +0200 Subject: [nabs-l] Itunes and RFB app problem References: Message-ID: Unfortunately, I can't answer to this question. but, curious to learn more about this rfb Ipod app. Thanks. Crystal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 8:49 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Itunes and RFB app problem > Dear nabs list, > I'm hoping some of you ipod hobbiests can help me out here. I just > bought the RFB Ipod app, and I'm trying to transfer books I've > downloaded from my computer to my ipod. But, unfortunately, I can't > find the "share" button on the itunes page anywhere, even after I've > selected RFB&D from my apps list. (I couldn't figure out how to > choose the device originally-mine was the only one that came up and I > can't find a "devices" pain anywhere) So...how in the name of Marc > Maurer am I supposed to transfer this dang thing? > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com > From steve.jacobson at visi.com Fri May 6 14:20:01 2011 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 09:20:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] notetaker prices In-Reply-To: <889034505F6D4F6EAFCE99E57ABC8563@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Don't forget about the BrailleSense as well, some have had very good luck with that note taker from HIMS. GW Micro still has information about these note takers at http://www.gwmicro.com/Notetakers/ and there could be other dealers. Also don't overlook the approach of using a refreshable braille display with a laptop computer. In some ways this approach is less convenient while offering more flexibility. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Thu, 5 May 2011 23:50:28 -0400, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >Humberto, >Get the latest technology; go with the Apex if you get a braille Note. >I don't know of a price comparison. Whether freedom scientific, fs, or >Humanware they are expensive. Brialle Note is about $6000 for a 32 cell >display. >I imagine a pacMate is about that as well. Just call the distributors to >find out prices and make your own list. >Ashley >-----Original Message----- >From: humberto >Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 11:30 PM >To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >Subject: [nabs-l] notetaker prices >Hi dear notetaker users: >I'm going to graduate out of high school, and all the assistive >technology such as my BrailleNote will have to be return to the >school district as it isn't mine. With that in mind, I'm in the >process of looking at notetakers which one is better, and which >one might really soothe my needs in college. I'm also looking at >prices. Do you know of any price list or comparison that I can >find? Do you know any exact prices for notetakers such as the >BrailleNote mPower, BrailleNote apex, and the Pacmate Omni with a >Braille display? I'm considering 3 choices: An apex with a >Braille style keyboard and 18 cell braille display, a BrailleNote >mPower with the same specs as the apex, or a Pacmate QX 440 (With >a querty keyboard and a 40 cell Braille display) which one of my >best friends has and loves it -- But anyways, I would like some >info on this. I've seen discussions on the list about these >devices, but I would like some more information. >Cheers, Humberto >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From k7uij at panix.com Fri May 6 16:33:09 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 09:33:09 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Itunes and RFB app problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirt: I'm afraid this will end up being somewhat of a tome but it's a subject worth attention. I don't know how familiar you are with iTunes; I hope this post doesn't end up sounding condescending. First, I recommend listening to Freedom Scientific's podcasts for December 2010 and January 2011.; I believe they're FSCast 49 and FSCast 50 (or is it 50 and 51?). They deal with some elements of iTunes including navigation. It's interface, while quite manageable, isn't quite the standard Windows fare one is used to. To start with, the F6 key is your friend; it can quickly move you between what's called the "Source List", the "Search Box" and the items of interest, be they music items you have on your computer/iPod, radio stations or podcasts you've downloaded or subscribed to via iTunes etc. I shall presume you've selected List View via Control+Shift+3 (where 3 is on the number pad at the top of the QWERTY keyboard). The Source List will have all the items you've configured to show. The top one is always Music (who has an iPod without music?). Anyway, arrow down through the source List till you hear iTunes Store; then wait a second or two till the "blip" sound occurs which tells you that the store page is displayed. Now keep arrowing down; you'll hear "Purchased" and, perhaps, "Purchased on Kirt's iPod" or whatever you've called it. You'll get a window which (unless you've disabled it with the requisite checkbox) says something about what appears there but I forget since I don't listen to it; I just hit "OK". Keep arrowing down; you'll get to a "Devices" tree view. You'll see your iPod device. Hit right-arrow to open it. Start tabbing. You'll hear a bunch of buttons controlling iTunes playback. Eventually, you'll come to a button that says "Summary". It is checked by default. Keep tabbing till you hear a button that says "Apps". Hit spacebar to check it. You won't hear confirmation of this but if you hit "Say Line", you can hear that it's checked. Now check till you hear a message that says "The Items Below have File sharing Capability" or something similar -- I'm not at my computer to check this. Tabtill you hear a list of applications. Arrow down til you hear "RFB&D Audio". Now tab till you hear "Add". Hit ENTER. You'll be in a standard file specification dialog; what this looks like depends upon which version of Windows you are using. Select the RFB&D book in its zipfile form. Hit ENTER again and the book will be transferred. This is just a sketch of the process; if you wish, I can call you on the phone over the weekend and demonstrate it for you or go over it with you. HTH! Mike On May 5, 2011, at 23:49, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Dear nabs list, > I'm hoping some of you ipod hobbiests can help me out here. I just > bought the RFB Ipod app, and I'm trying to transfer books I've > downloaded from my computer to my ipod. But, unfortunately, I can't > find the "share" button on the itunes page anywhere, even after I've > selected RFB&D from my apps list. (I couldn't figure out how to > choose the device originally-mine was the only one that came up and I > can't find a "devices" pain anywhere) So...how in the name of Marc > Maurer am I supposed to transfer this dang thing? > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri May 6 16:43:22 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 10:43:22 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Itunes and RFB app problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, I think that's enough to get me started-thank you. I'm used to just opening programs and kind of figuring them out so that's why Itunes really threw me for a loop. You didn't sound condescending at all-to be fair, I should've looked up a few things before complaining to the list...but hey, I was tired! :) But I'll keep your offer for assistance in mind-if I can't figure this out I'll take you up on it. Oh-and Darian or Liz? Maybe using itunes could be the subject of some future NABS conference call, I'd certainly be there for that one. :) Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/6/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > Kirt: > > I'm afraid this will end up being somewhat of a tome but it's a subject > worth attention. I don't know how familiar you are with iTunes; I hope this > post doesn't end up sounding condescending. > > First, I recommend listening to Freedom Scientific's podcasts for December > 2010 and January 2011.; I believe they're FSCast 49 and FSCast 50 (or is it > 50 and 51?). They deal with some elements of iTunes including navigation. > It's interface, while quite manageable, isn't quite the standard Windows > fare one is used to. > > To start with, the F6 key is your friend; it can quickly move you between > what's called the "Source List", the "Search Box" and the items of interest, > be they music items you have on your computer/iPod, radio stations or > podcasts you've downloaded or subscribed to via iTunes etc. I shall presume > you've selected List View via Control+Shift+3 (where 3 is on the number pad > at the top of the QWERTY keyboard). The Source List will have all the items > you've configured to show. The top one is always Music (who has an iPod > without music?). > > Anyway, arrow down through the source List till you hear iTunes Store; then > wait a second or two till the "blip" sound occurs which tells you that the > store page is displayed. Now keep arrowing down; you'll hear "Purchased" > and, perhaps, "Purchased on Kirt's iPod" or whatever you've called it. > You'll get a window which (unless you've disabled it with the requisite > checkbox) says something about what appears there but I forget since I don't > listen to it; I just hit "OK". > > Keep arrowing down; you'll get to a "Devices" tree view. You'll see your > iPod device. Hit right-arrow to open it. > > Start tabbing. You'll hear a bunch of buttons controlling iTunes playback. > Eventually, you'll come to a button that says "Summary". It is checked by > default. Keep tabbing till you hear a button that says "Apps". Hit > spacebar to check it. You won't hear confirmation of this but if you hit > "Say Line", you can hear that it's checked. Now check till you hear a > message that says "The Items Below have File sharing Capability" or > something similar -- I'm not at my computer to check this. Tabtill you hear > a list of applications. Arrow down til you hear "RFB&D Audio". Now tab > till you hear "Add". Hit ENTER. You'll be in a standard file specification > dialog; what this looks like depends upon which version of Windows you are > using. Select the RFB&D book in its zipfile form. Hit ENTER again and the > book will be transferred. > > This is just a sketch of the process; if you wish, I can call you on the > phone over the weekend and demonstrate it for you or go over it with you. > > HTH! > > Mike > > > > > > On May 5, 2011, at 23:49, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >> Dear nabs list, >> I'm hoping some of you ipod hobbiests can help me out here. I just >> bought the RFB Ipod app, and I'm trying to transfer books I've >> downloaded from my computer to my ipod. But, unfortunately, I can't >> find the "share" button on the itunes page anywhere, even after I've >> selected RFB&D from my apps list. (I couldn't figure out how to >> choose the device originally-mine was the only one that came up and I >> can't find a "devices" pain anywhere) So...how in the name of Marc >> Maurer am I supposed to transfer this dang thing? >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Fri May 6 17:14:42 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 13:14:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Message-ID: <20110506171442.6647.13417@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> You bring up an interesting point, Chris. I think the reason why the sighted tend to choose unwisely about the technologies they create for our benefit is because they've got us as a population all wrong. Most of the technologies the sighted invent tend to substitute for something we lack: eyesight. Or, they try to help us with some task they think would be difficult for them if they were blind such as matching our clothes or finding a room in a complex. The funny part is, for the stuff we really need help with like accessing touch screens or web sites, I think the sighted assumption is that we have someone conveniently available to help us do these things. It is true that many of us use readers, and there's nothing wrong with that at all as it is a legitimate, and often useful/necessary, alternative technique. However, I think reader usage patterns are changing because of technologies that allow us to get a lot more done more quickly on our own. I've noticed that my reader usage patterns have change dramatically over the past five to ten years. But maybe in some ironic kind of way, the thinking behind the technologies the sighted choose or don't choose to make accessible kind of make sense. They figure we're so helpless that we need all kinds of weird gadgets, but of course we aren't out there in the world to use the normal gadgets they're using. *shrug* Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > I agree! I was just thinking, maybe you could check in online for > airlines... if their site is accessible. But if not, most blind > people have a reader, right? Maybe you can ask your reader (if > you trust them) to read you the site (if it's not accessible) and > you can tell the reader what you want to click on. > Chris Nusbaum > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > --- Sent from my Braille-Note > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Date sent: Wed, 04 May 2011 12:26:42 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > Kirt, > I think the bottom line for me is this: can I do what I need to > do in a > manner that's convenient for me and everyone else around me? Goes > back > to that "Nature of Independence," doesn't it? You're right that > not > every technology is going to be accessible to us and that we will > have > to make work-arounds. No problem. We could say, going back to > our "If > the world went sighted" discussion, that if nothing else, > blindness > does encourage the development of problem-solving skills. Most > of the > time, getting help, if that's what's needed, is perfectly > acceptable > and sometimes easier or more convenient. For example, I > personally find > that I'd rather be checked in by a human than the touchscreens > because > it seems to me that touchscreen kiosks are kind of complicated > (not the > technology, but the systems they run on) when it may be just as > easy to > have an agent (or easier) check me in. And for now, that's fine > given > that many airlines still have agents that can do that for anyone. > But > for those airlines that don't even have agents, that's a problem. > Sure, > you could work around it by checking in online (and that's > probably not > a bad idea), but you may have instances where that is not > possible for > whatever reason. So it really is inconvenient to the self and > others to > track down the help you need and then find a way to get rid of > them > politely so you can go about your business and let them get back > to > theirs. the same issue goes for grocery lines. > Here's where I draw the line though. I, generally speaking, > refuse to > allow anyone to help me at an ATM unless I absolutely know they > can be > trusted. There are few people I would entrust with this task, > and none > of them are members of my family. I have had a bad experience > with > someone who helped me: my sister stole money from my bank account > when > she helped me with an aTM. Long story short, i became very wary > of > assistance in this matter. So for things like that, I believe > it's a > right of privacy that's at stake here, and everyone ought to have > to > have that right whether they belong to the majority or not. Same > with > voting. I personally prefer the privacy that comes with an > accessible > vote than entrusting my vote to someone who may or may not agree > with > me acting as a reader. If everyone else in the country has the > right to > a private vote, so do I. Now, if I choose to have someone read > my > ballot to me anyway, that's my choice, but I still have that > right to > privacy thanks to the HAVA. > Does any of this make sense? > Respectfully, > Jedi > Original message: > To all, > Here's my take...and, because I enjoy being an argumentative > pain in > the neck, I'm going to enjoy this. :) But before I start, I > want to > make it perfectly clear that I'm absolutely for the Technology > Bill of > Rights, making new technology accessible ought to be a legal > right, > and we are at a disadvantage when technology, like the touch > screens > Ashley mentioned are being put in store checkout lines, is used. > But we need to remember we are a minority and the majority of > the > population shouldn't bend over backwards to accomodate us. > While > having all new technology come to us perfectly accessible is a > laudable goal, it's probably never going to totally be realized. > Should we have the right? Absolutely. Will we ever have it > totally? > Probably not...even with the Technology bill of rights, this > dream of > Universal Design will probably never be totally realized. That > doesn't mean we don't work towards it-it just means we need to > learn > how to live in a world where there are inconveniences we have to > deal > with. We may have to stand in lines instead of using the > independent > self checkout-deal with it. We may need to get a reader if our > textbooks aren't accessible-too bad. We may need to get > assistance > using keosks in the airport-I'm terribly sorry, that's life. e > maybe > might even have to go with a trusted family member or friend > when > using an ATM...what a terrible tragedy! I can't believe we're > so > mistreated, abused, ignored, neglected, forgotten, and treated > like > crap by the rest of the evil sighted world that doesn't even > give a > damn about us! Life is aweful! This new technology isn't > accessible-woe is me, we're > dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed! Noone > even > cares about us! This is a terrible, terrible, no-good world we > live > in, because we need to get people to help us use touch > screens...whatever are we going to do? > Now of course that was an exhageration, and I certainly want > technology to be accessible. But rather than spend so much time > complaining about it, let's do our best to get around the > inaccessibility and live our lives! I'm all for pushing to make > this > new technology independently usable...but it's probably never > going to > totally happen, deal with it. There will always be > inconveniences and > annoyences associated with being blind-get used to it. The > world will > never perfectly cater to our every whim, get over it. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > On 5/2/11, humberto wrote: > Sorry, but your message came out blank: Subject: Re: [Nabs-l] > New > Technology And blindness, sent on Sonday may 1, 2011 at 9:33 AM > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chris Nusbaum To: National Association of Blind Students mailing > list Date sent: Sun, 01 May 2011 09:33:12 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa > 5369%40netzero.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind > jedi%40samobile.net > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. > Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Fri May 6 17:20:40 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 13:20:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College Message-ID: <20110506172040.6660.44305@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him and was quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind of guy who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good kid. I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It makes so much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > What do you guys think of this? > http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Fri May 6 17:27:09 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 13:27:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College Message-ID: <20110506172709.13636.5331@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Kirt, I'm going to sound like a total a-hole when I say this, so just be prepared. I'm sorry you don't feel equal to the sighted by default, but I don't think that's how the rest of us feel, nor should it be. If we decide that we're not equal by default, we might as well pack it in and forget why we're even federated in the first place. Jacobus tenbroek and his supporters got together in 1940 because he thought we are fundamentally equal to the sighted community despite the fact that we do have the challenge of blindness. But he also points out, and that is the point of Jernigan's Handicap or Characteristic, that there are other challenges in life out there. Some of these challenges are more significant than others, but they are challenges nonetheless. Think about a poor person for example. They have to do a lot of problem-solving to get their needs met. They also don't have access to a lot of advantages that more well-off people have and probably won't for some time. But does that mean they're not equal? Just a thought. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Josh, > Can be equal, not equal by default. > On 5/5/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Not perfect, but over-all I really enjoyed it...althoug that's more a >> credit to Matt than the reporters-it seems like they tried to make >> this a typical "oh my gosh the blind kid's amazing!" article, but he >> was able to toan it down a lot...just my thoughts. :) >> On 5/5/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: >>> What do you guys think of this? >>> http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From k7uij at panix.com Fri May 6 17:41:36 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 10:41:36 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: <20110506171442.6647.13417@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> References: <20110506171442.6647.13417@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Jedi: That's a great insight. What's worse is that the reasoning you outline below is self-reinforcing. If we are helpless and witless, why should we be listened to -- or so the sighted may reason. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 6, 2011, at 10:14, Jedi wrote: > You bring up an interesting point, Chris. > > I think the reason why the sighted tend to choose unwisely about the technologies they create for our benefit is because they've got us as a population all wrong. Most of the technologies the sighted invent tend to substitute for something we lack: eyesight. Or, they try to help us with some task they think would be difficult for them if they were blind such as matching our clothes or finding a room in a complex. The funny part is, for the stuff we really need help with like accessing touch screens or web sites, I think the sighted assumption is that we have someone conveniently available to help us do these things. It is true that many of us use readers, and there's nothing wrong with that at all as it is a legitimate, and often useful/necessary, alternative technique. However, I think reader usage patterns are changing because of technologies that allow us to get a lot more done more quickly on our own. I've noticed that my reader usage patterns have change dramatically over the past five to ten years. > > But maybe in some ironic kind of way, the thinking behind the technologies the sighted choose or don't choose to make accessible kind of make sense. They figure we're so helpless that we need all kinds of weird gadgets, but of course we aren't out there in the world to use the normal gadgets they're using. *shrug* > > Respectfully, > Jedi > Original message: >> I agree! I was just thinking, maybe you could check in online for >> airlines... if their site is accessible. But if not, most blind >> people have a reader, right? Maybe you can ask your reader (if >> you trust them) to read you the site (if it's not accessible) and >> you can tell the reader what you want to click on. > >> Chris Nusbaum > >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > >> --- Sent from my Braille-Note > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jedi > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Date sent: Wed, 04 May 2011 12:26:42 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > >> Kirt, > >> I think the bottom line for me is this: can I do what I need to >> do in a >> manner that's convenient for me and everyone else around me? Goes >> back >> to that "Nature of Independence," doesn't it? You're right that >> not >> every technology is going to be accessible to us and that we will >> have >> to make work-arounds. No problem. We could say, going back to >> our "If >> the world went sighted" discussion, that if nothing else, >> blindness >> does encourage the development of problem-solving skills. Most >> of the >> time, getting help, if that's what's needed, is perfectly >> acceptable >> and sometimes easier or more convenient. For example, I >> personally find >> that I'd rather be checked in by a human than the touchscreens >> because >> it seems to me that touchscreen kiosks are kind of complicated >> (not the >> technology, but the systems they run on) when it may be just as >> easy to >> have an agent (or easier) check me in. And for now, that's fine >> given >> that many airlines still have agents that can do that for anyone. >> But >> for those airlines that don't even have agents, that's a problem. >> Sure, >> you could work around it by checking in online (and that's >> probably not >> a bad idea), but you may have instances where that is not >> possible for >> whatever reason. So it really is inconvenient to the self and >> others to >> track down the help you need and then find a way to get rid of >> them >> politely so you can go about your business and let them get back >> to >> theirs. the same issue goes for grocery lines. > >> Here's where I draw the line though. I, generally speaking, >> refuse to >> allow anyone to help me at an ATM unless I absolutely know they >> can be >> trusted. There are few people I would entrust with this task, >> and none >> of them are members of my family. I have had a bad experience >> with >> someone who helped me: my sister stole money from my bank account >> when >> she helped me with an aTM. Long story short, i became very wary >> of >> assistance in this matter. So for things like that, I believe >> it's a >> right of privacy that's at stake here, and everyone ought to have >> to >> have that right whether they belong to the majority or not. Same >> with >> voting. I personally prefer the privacy that comes with an >> accessible >> vote than entrusting my vote to someone who may or may not agree >> with >> me acting as a reader. If everyone else in the country has the >> right to >> a private vote, so do I. Now, if I choose to have someone read >> my >> ballot to me anyway, that's my choice, but I still have that >> right to >> privacy thanks to the HAVA. > >> Does any of this make sense? > >> Respectfully, >> Jedi > >> Original message: >> To all, >> Here's my take...and, because I enjoy being an argumentative >> pain in >> the neck, I'm going to enjoy this. :) But before I start, I >> want to >> make it perfectly clear that I'm absolutely for the Technology >> Bill of >> Rights, making new technology accessible ought to be a legal >> right, >> and we are at a disadvantage when technology, like the touch >> screens >> Ashley mentioned are being put in store checkout lines, is used. >> But we need to remember we are a minority and the majority of >> the >> population shouldn't bend over backwards to accomodate us. >> While >> having all new technology come to us perfectly accessible is a >> laudable goal, it's probably never going to totally be realized. >> Should we have the right? Absolutely. Will we ever have it >> totally? >> Probably not...even with the Technology bill of rights, this >> dream of >> Universal Design will probably never be totally realized. That >> doesn't mean we don't work towards it-it just means we need to >> learn >> how to live in a world where there are inconveniences we have to >> deal >> with. We may have to stand in lines instead of using the >> independent >> self checkout-deal with it. We may need to get a reader if our >> textbooks aren't accessible-too bad. We may need to get >> assistance >> using keosks in the airport-I'm terribly sorry, that's life. e >> maybe >> might even have to go with a trusted family member or friend >> when >> using an ATM...what a terrible tragedy! I can't believe we're >> so >> mistreated, abused, ignored, neglected, forgotten, and treated >> like >> crap by the rest of the evil sighted world that doesn't even >> give a >> damn about us! Life is aweful! This new technology isn't >> accessible-woe is me, we're >> dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed! Noone >> even >> cares about us! This is a terrible, terrible, no-good world we >> live >> in, because we need to get people to help us use touch >> screens...whatever are we going to do? >> Now of course that was an exhageration, and I certainly want >> technology to be accessible. But rather than spend so much time >> complaining about it, let's do our best to get around the >> inaccessibility and live our lives! I'm all for pushing to make >> this >> new technology independently usable...but it's probably never >> going to >> totally happen, deal with it. There will always be >> inconveniences and >> annoyences associated with being blind-get used to it. The >> world will >> never perfectly cater to our every whim, get over it. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt > >> On 5/2/11, humberto wrote: >> Sorry, but your message came out blank: Subject: Re: [Nabs-l] >> New >> Technology And blindness, sent on Sonday may 1, 2011 at 9:33 AM > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Chris Nusbaum > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list> Date sent: Sun, 01 May 2011 09:33:12 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >> for nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >> 5369%40netzero.net > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >> ydude%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >> jedi%40samobile.net > >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >> Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Fri May 6 17:48:08 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 13:48:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Message-ID: <20110506174808.21107.20311@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> *shrug* *nod* *giggle* Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Jedi: > That's a great insight. What's worse is that the reasoning you outline > below is self-reinforcing. If we are helpless and witless, why should > we be listened to -- or so the sighted may reason. > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > On May 6, 2011, at 10:14, Jedi wrote: >> You bring up an interesting point, Chris. >> I think the reason why the sighted tend to choose unwisely about the >> technologies they create for our benefit is because they've got us as a >> population all wrong. Most of the technologies the sighted invent tend >> to substitute for something we lack: eyesight. Or, they try to help us >> with some task they think would be difficult for them if they were >> blind such as matching our clothes or finding a room in a complex. The >> funny part is, for the stuff we really need help with like accessing >> touch screens or web sites, I think the sighted assumption is that we >> have someone conveniently available to help us do these things. It is >> true that many of us use readers, and there's nothing wrong with that >> at all as it is a legitimate, and often useful/necessary, alternative >> technique. However, I think reader usage patterns are changing because >> of technologies that allow us to get a lot more done more quickly on >> our own. I've noticed that my reader usage patterns have change dramatically o > ver the past five to ten years. >> But maybe in some ironic kind of way, the thinking behind the >> technologies the sighted choose or don't choose to make accessible kind >> of make sense. They figure we're so helpless that we need all kinds of >> weird gadgets, but of course we aren't out there in the world to use >> the normal gadgets they're using. *shrug* >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> Original message: >>> I agree! I was just thinking, maybe you could check in online for >>> airlines... if their site is accessible. But if not, most blind >>> people have a reader, right? Maybe you can ask your reader (if >>> you trust them) to read you the site (if it's not accessible) and >>> you can tell the reader what you want to click on. >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>> --- Sent from my Braille-Note >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Jedi >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Date sent: Wed, 04 May 2011 12:26:42 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness >>> Kirt, >>> I think the bottom line for me is this: can I do what I need to >>> do in a >>> manner that's convenient for me and everyone else around me? Goes >>> back >>> to that "Nature of Independence," doesn't it? You're right that >>> not >>> every technology is going to be accessible to us and that we will >>> have >>> to make work-arounds. No problem. We could say, going back to >>> our "If >>> the world went sighted" discussion, that if nothing else, >>> blindness >>> does encourage the development of problem-solving skills. Most >>> of the >>> time, getting help, if that's what's needed, is perfectly >>> acceptable >>> and sometimes easier or more convenient. For example, I >>> personally find >>> that I'd rather be checked in by a human than the touchscreens >>> because >>> it seems to me that touchscreen kiosks are kind of complicated >>> (not the >>> technology, but the systems they run on) when it may be just as >>> easy to >>> have an agent (or easier) check me in. And for now, that's fine >>> given >>> that many airlines still have agents that can do that for anyone. >>> But >>> for those airlines that don't even have agents, that's a problem. >>> Sure, >>> you could work around it by checking in online (and that's >>> probably not >>> a bad idea), but you may have instances where that is not >>> possible for >>> whatever reason. So it really is inconvenient to the self and >>> others to >>> track down the help you need and then find a way to get rid of >>> them >>> politely so you can go about your business and let them get back >>> to >>> theirs. the same issue goes for grocery lines. >>> Here's where I draw the line though. I, generally speaking, >>> refuse to >>> allow anyone to help me at an ATM unless I absolutely know they >>> can be >>> trusted. There are few people I would entrust with this task, >>> and none >>> of them are members of my family. I have had a bad experience >>> with >>> someone who helped me: my sister stole money from my bank account >>> when >>> she helped me with an aTM. Long story short, i became very wary >>> of >>> assistance in this matter. So for things like that, I believe >>> it's a >>> right of privacy that's at stake here, and everyone ought to have >>> to >>> have that right whether they belong to the majority or not. Same >>> with >>> voting. I personally prefer the privacy that comes with an >>> accessible >>> vote than entrusting my vote to someone who may or may not agree >>> with >>> me acting as a reader. If everyone else in the country has the >>> right to >>> a private vote, so do I. Now, if I choose to have someone read >>> my >>> ballot to me anyway, that's my choice, but I still have that >>> right to >>> privacy thanks to the HAVA. >>> Does any of this make sense? >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> Original message: >>> To all, >>> Here's my take...and, because I enjoy being an argumentative >>> pain in >>> the neck, I'm going to enjoy this. :) But before I start, I >>> want to >>> make it perfectly clear that I'm absolutely for the Technology >>> Bill of >>> Rights, making new technology accessible ought to be a legal >>> right, >>> and we are at a disadvantage when technology, like the touch >>> screens >>> Ashley mentioned are being put in store checkout lines, is used. >>> But we need to remember we are a minority and the majority of >>> the >>> population shouldn't bend over backwards to accomodate us. >>> While >>> having all new technology come to us perfectly accessible is a >>> laudable goal, it's probably never going to totally be realized. >>> Should we have the right? Absolutely. Will we ever have it >>> totally? >>> Probably not...even with the Technology bill of rights, this >>> dream of >>> Universal Design will probably never be totally realized. That >>> doesn't mean we don't work towards it-it just means we need to >>> learn >>> how to live in a world where there are inconveniences we have to >>> deal >>> with. We may have to stand in lines instead of using the >>> independent >>> self checkout-deal with it. We may need to get a reader if our >>> textbooks aren't accessible-too bad. We may need to get >>> assistance >>> using keosks in the airport-I'm terribly sorry, that's life. e >>> maybe >>> might even have to go with a trusted family member or friend >>> when >>> using an ATM...what a terrible tragedy! I can't believe we're >>> so >>> mistreated, abused, ignored, neglected, forgotten, and treated >>> like >>> crap by the rest of the evil sighted world that doesn't even >>> give a >>> damn about us! Life is aweful! This new technology isn't >>> accessible-woe is me, we're >>> dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed! Noone >>> even >>> cares about us! This is a terrible, terrible, no-good world we >>> live >>> in, because we need to get people to help us use touch >>> screens...whatever are we going to do? >>> Now of course that was an exhageration, and I certainly want >>> technology to be accessible. But rather than spend so much time >>> complaining about it, let's do our best to get around the >>> inaccessibility and live our lives! I'm all for pushing to make >>> this >>> new technology independently usable...but it's probably never >>> going to >>> totally happen, deal with it. There will always be >>> inconveniences and >>> annoyences associated with being blind-get used to it. The >>> world will >>> never perfectly cater to our every whim, get over it. >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> On 5/2/11, humberto wrote: >>> Sorry, but your message came out blank: Subject: Re: [Nabs-l] >>> New >>> Technology And blindness, sent on Sonday may 1, 2011 at 9:33 AM >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Chris Nusbaum >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing >>> list>> Date sent: Sun, 01 May 2011 09:33:12 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>> 5369%40netzero.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>> ydude%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >>> jedi%40samobile.net >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >>> Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From jp100 at earthlink.net Fri May 6 17:49:03 2011 From: jp100 at earthlink.net (Jim) Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 10:49:03 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness In-Reply-To: References: <20110506171442.6647.13417@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: <000501cc0c15$e411cc80$ac356580$@earthlink.net> I agree. That was very well put! -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Freeman Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 10:42 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness Jedi: That's a great insight. What's worse is that the reasoning you outline below is self-reinforcing. If we are helpless and witless, why should we be listened to -- or so the sighted may reason. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 6, 2011, at 10:14, Jedi wrote: > You bring up an interesting point, Chris. > > I think the reason why the sighted tend to choose unwisely about the technologies they create for our benefit is because they've got us as a population all wrong. Most of the technologies the sighted invent tend to substitute for something we lack: eyesight. Or, they try to help us with some task they think would be difficult for them if they were blind such as matching our clothes or finding a room in a complex. The funny part is, for the stuff we really need help with like accessing touch screens or web sites, I think the sighted assumption is that we have someone conveniently available to help us do these things. It is true that many of us use readers, and there's nothing wrong with that at all as it is a legitimate, and often useful/necessary, alternative technique. However, I think reader usage patterns are changing because of technologies that allow us to get a lot more done more quickly on our own. I've noticed that my reader usage patterns have change dramatically over the past five to ten years. > > But maybe in some ironic kind of way, the thinking behind the > technologies the sighted choose or don't choose to make accessible > kind of make sense. They figure we're so helpless that we need all > kinds of weird gadgets, but of course we aren't out there in the world > to use the normal gadgets they're using. *shrug* > > Respectfully, > Jedi > Original message: >> I agree! I was just thinking, maybe you could check in online for >> airlines... if their site is accessible. But if not, most blind >> people have a reader, right? Maybe you can ask your reader (if you >> trust them) to read you the site (if it's not accessible) and you can >> tell the reader what you want to click on. > >> Chris Nusbaum > >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > >> --- Sent from my Braille-Note > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jedi > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Date sent: Wed, 04 May 2011 12:26:42 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > >> Kirt, > >> I think the bottom line for me is this: can I do what I need to do in >> a manner that's convenient for me and everyone else around me? Goes >> back to that "Nature of Independence," doesn't it? You're right that >> not every technology is going to be accessible to us and that we will >> have to make work-arounds. No problem. We could say, going back to >> our "If the world went sighted" discussion, that if nothing else, >> blindness does encourage the development of problem-solving skills. >> Most of the time, getting help, if that's what's needed, is perfectly >> acceptable and sometimes easier or more convenient. For example, I >> personally find that I'd rather be checked in by a human than the >> touchscreens because it seems to me that touchscreen kiosks are kind >> of complicated (not the technology, but the systems they run on) when >> it may be just as easy to have an agent (or easier) check me in. And >> for now, that's fine given that many airlines still have agents that >> can do that for anyone. >> But >> for those airlines that don't even have agents, that's a problem. >> Sure, >> you could work around it by checking in online (and that's probably >> not a bad idea), but you may have instances where that is not >> possible for whatever reason. So it really is inconvenient to the >> self and others to track down the help you need and then find a way >> to get rid of them politely so you can go about your business and let >> them get back to theirs. the same issue goes for grocery lines. > >> Here's where I draw the line though. I, generally speaking, refuse >> to allow anyone to help me at an ATM unless I absolutely know they >> can be trusted. There are few people I would entrust with this task, >> and none of them are members of my family. I have had a bad >> experience with someone who helped me: my sister stole money from my >> bank account when she helped me with an aTM. Long story short, i >> became very wary of assistance in this matter. So for things like >> that, I believe it's a right of privacy that's at stake here, and >> everyone ought to have to have that right whether they belong to the >> majority or not. Same with voting. I personally prefer the privacy >> that comes with an accessible vote than entrusting my vote to someone >> who may or may not agree with me acting as a reader. If everyone >> else in the country has the right to a private vote, so do I. Now, >> if I choose to have someone read my ballot to me anyway, that's my >> choice, but I still have that right to privacy thanks to the HAVA. > >> Does any of this make sense? > >> Respectfully, >> Jedi > >> Original message: >> To all, >> Here's my take...and, because I enjoy being an argumentative pain >> in the neck, I'm going to enjoy this. :) But before I start, I want >> to make it perfectly clear that I'm absolutely for the Technology >> Bill of Rights, making new technology accessible ought to be a legal >> right, and we are at a disadvantage when technology, like the touch >> screens Ashley mentioned are being put in store checkout lines, is >> used. >> But we need to remember we are a minority and the majority of the >> population shouldn't bend over backwards to accomodate us. >> While >> having all new technology come to us perfectly accessible is a >> laudable goal, it's probably never going to totally be realized. >> Should we have the right? Absolutely. Will we ever have it totally? >> Probably not...even with the Technology bill of rights, this dream of >> Universal Design will probably never be totally realized. That >> doesn't mean we don't work towards it-it just means we need to learn >> how to live in a world where there are inconveniences we have to deal >> with. We may have to stand in lines instead of using the independent >> self checkout-deal with it. We may need to get a reader if our >> textbooks aren't accessible-too bad. We may need to get assistance >> using keosks in the airport-I'm terribly sorry, that's life. e maybe >> might even have to go with a trusted family member or friend when >> using an ATM...what a terrible tragedy! I can't believe we're so >> mistreated, abused, ignored, neglected, forgotten, and treated like >> crap by the rest of the evil sighted world that doesn't even give a >> damn about us! Life is aweful! This new technology isn't >> accessible-woe is me, we're >> dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomed! Noone even >> cares about us! This is a terrible, terrible, no-good world we live >> in, because we need to get people to help us use touch >> screens...whatever are we going to do? >> Now of course that was an exhageration, and I certainly want >> technology to be accessible. But rather than spend so much time >> complaining about it, let's do our best to get around the >> inaccessibility and live our lives! I'm all for pushing to make this >> new technology independently usable...but it's probably never going >> to totally happen, deal with it. There will always be inconveniences >> and annoyences associated with being blind-get used to it. The world >> will never perfectly cater to our every whim, get over it. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt > >> On 5/2/11, humberto wrote: >> Sorry, but your message came out blank: Subject: Re: [Nabs-l] New >> Technology And blindness, sent on Sonday may 1, 2011 at 9:33 AM > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Chris Nusbaum > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Technology and Blindness > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >> 5369%40netzero.net > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >> ydude%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >> jedi%40samobile.net > >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >> Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi >> %40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix. > com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jp100%40earthlink.ne t From jcmunoz1989 at gmail.com Fri May 6 18:58:26 2011 From: jcmunoz1989 at gmail.com (Juan Munoz) Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 13:58:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] And the winner is... Message-ID: Hello NABS, Thanks to your votes, the winning topic that will be May's conference call is technology. The call will take place on the evening of May 22nd. More information will be available soon. Till then, take care NABS. -- Respectfully, Juan Carlos Munoz President Texas Association of Blind Students www.nfb-texas.org/tabs.html From liziswhatis at hotmail.com Fri May 6 19:36:58 2011 From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 14:36:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] An Informal Poll: IOS Apps Message-ID: Hi all, I have been asked to make a list of the most commonly-used and recommended apps on the iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch by blind people and so turn to this list for input. If you have suggestions, please write me off list with "IOS Apps" in the subject line. Thank you, and take care. Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri May 6 19:59:30 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 15:59:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College Message-ID: <4dc45325.9247e60a.534b.317c@mx.google.com> From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri May 6 19:59:34 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 15:59:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindtlk] Ellen Bomer's Book "Miss Gloria" is finally available Message-ID: <4dc45328.9247e60a.534b.317d@mx.google.com> From joshkart12 at gmail.com Fri May 6 20:10:32 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 16:10:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindtlk] Ellen Bomer's Book "Miss Gloria" is finallyavailable Message-ID: <4dc455d4.9d7bdc0a.42ac.2a5b@mx.google.com> Just so you know: Unless you meant to only put something in the subject field, the following is a blank message. Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Nusbaum From k7uij at panix.com Fri May 6 21:57:29 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 14:57:29 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] And the winner is... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hmmm ... a very specific topic! :-) Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 6, 2011, at 11:58, Juan Munoz wrote: > Hello NABS, > > Thanks to your votes, the winning topic that will be May's conference > call is technology. The call will take place on the evening of May > 22nd. More information will be available soon. Till then, take care > NABS. > > -- > Respectfully, > > Juan Carlos Munoz > President > Texas Association of Blind Students > www.nfb-texas.org/tabs.html > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat May 7 03:31:30 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 23:31:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College In-Reply-To: <4dc45325.9247e60a.534b.317c@mx.google.com> References: <4dc45325.9247e60a.534b.317c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <57F8A73FB4BC4F1885274215BD38A0D9@OwnerPC> this message is blank. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 3:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From ignasicambra at gmail.com Sat May 7 08:32:23 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 04:32:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College In-Reply-To: <20110506172040.6660.44305@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> References: <20110506172040.6660.44305@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time back in 2004. I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was always playing outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the time and we were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. Actually, when they were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide dog, but Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog walking too fast :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is still working wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog they assigned me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the advantage of instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from for each person. IC On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: > I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him and was quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind of guy who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good kid. > > I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It makes so much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> What do you guys think of this? >> http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Sat May 7 08:38:33 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 04:38:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS In-Reply-To: <20110504165613.21838.2313@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> References: <20110504165613.21838.2313@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: <33605682-8DED-4051-A00A-6A77FB3C67AE@gmail.com> I don't think people would get confused though... I mean sounds are different when they come out of a speaker... Well, in any case I hope they don't have any of those birds in Madrid cause if they do they must be learning lots of things these days :). On May 4, 2011, at 12:56 PM, Jedi wrote: > There's just one problem with that. I believe it's Australia. In fact, I'm sure it is. They have this bird called a lyrebird, and it has the ability to mimic the sounds it hears. So, if it hears this special bird song and mimics it, some blind person's life could be in danger if she or he doens't know how to read traffic. I've heard of other birds having a similar ability as the lyrebird. So, I'd vote for some other pleasant sound that's a little harder for wildlife to mimic such as a piano tune or something. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> I just remembered that in Madrid they have an other interesting system: where APS make this rather pleasant sound which sounds just like a bird singing. It's actually not annoying, and they have them literally all over the city. At this point it's just a sound that one identifies with Madrid. The bird also sings differently depending on how much time you have left to cross etc. The first time I heard it I thought it was funny, but the truth is that it doesn't bother people and it does the job. >> On May 3, 2011, at 11:26 PM, Robert Spangler wrote: > >>> Hello all, > >>> I, personally, do not have a problem with APS so long as they are spaced far enough apart and aren't too bothersome to the public. I also think that there should always be a button, in case those who find them annoying don't want to use them. I don't have an issue with their presence at high-traffic intersections or complex crossings such as those mentioned by other members of the list; however, imagine having APS at every intersection in a downtown area? That would be a nightmare for everyone! > >>> Thanks, >>> Robby >>> On 5/2/2011 7:42 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> Hi Ashley and all, > >>>> I don't know exactly what NFB's official position is at this point. I >>>> personally am a big fan of audible traffic signals, for a few reasons. >>>> First, as you pointed out, there are several kinds of intersections >>>> where the auditory cue to cross is rather subtle-such as >>>> T-intersections, those where the parallel street is generally quiet or >>>> those with leading turn arrows, where you have to listen for the >>>> turning traffic to stop before crossing. I know it is possible to >>>> reliably cross these kinds of intersections using traffic cues alone, >>>> but the potential for mistakes (both missing the cue to cross and >>>> inadvertently crossing at the wrong time) is substantial especially >>>> for those who have had insufficient training. Second, as far as I >>>> know, there is no reliable way to tell when your walk signal is about >>>> to end. So if you come up to an intersection and the light is in your >>>> favor, there's no way to tell whether you will have enough time to >>>> cross before the light changes. The only really safe way to handle >>>> this is to wait until the light turns red and then green again, which >>>> can be inconvenient. Trust me, I've gambled on these and tried to >>>> cross without enough time-the result is scary not to mention >>>> embarrassing. Finally, though I know this logic is not always popular, >>>> I do think that if the sighted are given a clear cue to cross the >>>> street and it is not an undue hardship to make that signal accessible >>>> to the blind, it should be done. I can't imagine an intersection where >>>> sighted pedestrians are expected to watch the traffic without any kind >>>> of walk signal or light indicating when it was safe to cross. >>>> That being said, I don't think this necessarily has to be our biggest >>>> priority at this time. I also recognize that some blind travelers find >>>> audible signals bothersome and I would support some way of making the >>>> sound optional or implementing a tactile (i.e. vibrating) signal, >>>> which would also benefit the deaf-blind. > >>>> Arielle > >>>> On 5/2/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>> I thought it wasn't supposed to be enforced till like 2012? > > >>>>> On May 2, 2011, at 7:14 PM, wrote: > >>>>>> George, >>>>>> Actually the ACB seems as mad as ever; yes they won in the court; but the >>>>>> government has not produced accessible currency yet. >>>>>> Some do not feel the decision will be enforced. > >>>>>> Ashley > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez >>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:57 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS > >>>>>> I believe the national is officially against expanding the use of APS. > >>>>>> As far as accessible currency, didn't the ACB already close that case in >>>>>> court? >>>>>> ACB V. US trasury 2009 or something like that? > > >>>>>> On May 2, 2011, at 6:36 PM, wrote: > >>>>>>> Hi all, > >>>>>>> I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they are >>>>>>> taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency >>>>>>> topics and really trashing the NFB and they don’t know the real positions >>>>>>> and facts. >>>>>>> They think NFB opposes both. >>>>>>> I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions? >>>>>>> Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. > >>>>>>> What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do you >>>>>>> think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? >>>>>>> Personally, I’d like the APS at intersections where you have to press the >>>>>>> walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk signal to know when >>>>>>> our time starts; you have to press the button in order to tell the >>>>>>> computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk phase to cross the >>>>>>> street. I think these are called actuated signals. These streets favor >>>>>>> drivers, not pedestrians; the busier streets get more traffic time. That >>>>>>> change of the signal is activated by a computer. > >>>>>>> At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, without a >>>>>>> button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues to hear to >>>>>>> cross. >>>>>>> I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn >>>>>>> lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some signals >>>>>>> even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk interval. > >>>>>>> So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient traffic >>>>>>> cues to cross the street. I’ve tried to learn how to cross T streets, >>>>>>> and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help there too. No >>>>>>> parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. > >>>>>>> Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on APS, >>>>>>> so I’m not sure what it is now. I certainly don’t want them everywhere, >>>>>>> but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see their use. > >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > > > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat May 7 08:59:25 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 02:59:25 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College In-Reply-To: References: <20110506172040.6660.44305@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Jedi, Maybe it'll makemore sense if I say it this way. I wasn't refering to a person's intrinsic value. I should've said we can't compete on an equal level by default. I'm going to invert a statement you've heard a billion times. Without propper training and opportunity, blindness is a great deal more than a mere nuisence, and is, in fact, a very significant limitation. Would you agree? Best regards, Kirt On 5/7/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time back in 2004. > I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was always playing > outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the time and we > were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. Actually, when they > were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide dog, but > Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog walking too fast > :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is still working > wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog they assigned > me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the advantage of > instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from for each > person. > > IC > On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: > >> I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him and was >> quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind of guy >> who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good kid. >> >> I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It makes so >> much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible >> Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Original message: >>> What do you guys think of this? >>> http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From k7uij at panix.com Sat May 7 15:21:25 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 08:21:25 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS In-Reply-To: <33605682-8DED-4051-A00A-6A77FB3C67AE@gmail.com> References: <20110504165613.21838.2313@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <33605682-8DED-4051-A00A-6A77FB3C67AE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004001cc0cca$6ed82d50$4c8887f0$@panix.com> One of the guys in our Agriculture and Equestrian Division who lives in San diego tells of an instance when a car pulled up to an intersection with an APS (there are quite a number in that city) and, rather than looking at the light, just listened for the APS. He stepped on the gas and ran smackdab into a car broadside because the light wasn't in his favor. Turns out there was actually a bird that sounded like the APS and he thought it *was* the APS when, in fact, the APS hadn't sounded. (grin) I think the Ag and Eq division member's name is Fred chambers. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ignasi Cambra Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 1:39 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS I don't think people would get confused though... I mean sounds are different when they come out of a speaker... Well, in any case I hope they don't have any of those birds in Madrid cause if they do they must be learning lots of things these days :). On May 4, 2011, at 12:56 PM, Jedi wrote: > There's just one problem with that. I believe it's Australia. In fact, I'm sure it is. They have this bird called a lyrebird, and it has the ability to mimic the sounds it hears. So, if it hears this special bird song and mimics it, some blind person's life could be in danger if she or he doens't know how to read traffic. I've heard of other birds having a similar ability as the lyrebird. So, I'd vote for some other pleasant sound that's a little harder for wildlife to mimic such as a piano tune or something. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> I just remembered that in Madrid they have an other interesting system: where APS make this rather pleasant sound which sounds just like a bird singing. It's actually not annoying, and they have them literally all over the city. At this point it's just a sound that one identifies with Madrid. The bird also sings differently depending on how much time you have left to cross etc. The first time I heard it I thought it was funny, but the truth is that it doesn't bother people and it does the job. >> On May 3, 2011, at 11:26 PM, Robert Spangler wrote: > >>> Hello all, > >>> I, personally, do not have a problem with APS so long as they are spaced far enough apart and aren't too bothersome to the public. I also think that there should always be a button, in case those who find them annoying don't want to use them. I don't have an issue with their presence at high-traffic intersections or complex crossings such as those mentioned by other members of the list; however, imagine having APS at every intersection in a downtown area? That would be a nightmare for everyone! > >>> Thanks, >>> Robby >>> On 5/2/2011 7:42 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> Hi Ashley and all, > >>>> I don't know exactly what NFB's official position is at this point. I >>>> personally am a big fan of audible traffic signals, for a few reasons. >>>> First, as you pointed out, there are several kinds of intersections >>>> where the auditory cue to cross is rather subtle-such as >>>> T-intersections, those where the parallel street is generally quiet or >>>> those with leading turn arrows, where you have to listen for the >>>> turning traffic to stop before crossing. I know it is possible to >>>> reliably cross these kinds of intersections using traffic cues alone, >>>> but the potential for mistakes (both missing the cue to cross and >>>> inadvertently crossing at the wrong time) is substantial especially >>>> for those who have had insufficient training. Second, as far as I >>>> know, there is no reliable way to tell when your walk signal is about >>>> to end. So if you come up to an intersection and the light is in your >>>> favor, there's no way to tell whether you will have enough time to >>>> cross before the light changes. The only really safe way to handle >>>> this is to wait until the light turns red and then green again, which >>>> can be inconvenient. Trust me, I've gambled on these and tried to >>>> cross without enough time-the result is scary not to mention >>>> embarrassing. Finally, though I know this logic is not always popular, >>>> I do think that if the sighted are given a clear cue to cross the >>>> street and it is not an undue hardship to make that signal accessible >>>> to the blind, it should be done. I can't imagine an intersection where >>>> sighted pedestrians are expected to watch the traffic without any kind >>>> of walk signal or light indicating when it was safe to cross. >>>> That being said, I don't think this necessarily has to be our biggest >>>> priority at this time. I also recognize that some blind travelers find >>>> audible signals bothersome and I would support some way of making the >>>> sound optional or implementing a tactile (i.e. vibrating) signal, >>>> which would also benefit the deaf-blind. > >>>> Arielle > >>>> On 5/2/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>> I thought it wasn't supposed to be enforced till like 2012? > > >>>>> On May 2, 2011, at 7:14 PM, wrote: > >>>>>> George, >>>>>> Actually the ACB seems as mad as ever; yes they won in the court; but the >>>>>> government has not produced accessible currency yet. >>>>>> Some do not feel the decision will be enforced. > >>>>>> Ashley > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez >>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:57 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS > >>>>>> I believe the national is officially against expanding the use of APS. > >>>>>> As far as accessible currency, didn't the ACB already close that case in >>>>>> court? >>>>>> ACB V. US trasury 2009 or something like that? > > >>>>>> On May 2, 2011, at 6:36 PM, wrote: > >>>>>>> Hi all, > >>>>>>> I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they are >>>>>>> taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency >>>>>>> topics and really trashing the NFB and they don't know the real positions >>>>>>> and facts. >>>>>>> They think NFB opposes both. >>>>>>> I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions? >>>>>>> Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. > >>>>>>> What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do you >>>>>>> think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? >>>>>>> Personally, I'd like the APS at intersections where you have to press the >>>>>>> walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk signal to know when >>>>>>> our time starts; you have to press the button in order to tell the >>>>>>> computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk phase to cross the >>>>>>> street. I think these are called actuated signals. These streets favor >>>>>>> drivers, not pedestrians; the busier streets get more traffic time. That >>>>>>> change of the signal is activated by a computer. > >>>>>>> At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, without a >>>>>>> button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues to hear to >>>>>>> cross. >>>>>>> I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn >>>>>>> lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some signals >>>>>>> even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk interval. > >>>>>>> So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient traffic >>>>>>> cues to cross the street. I've tried to learn how to cross T streets, >>>>>>> and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help there too. No >>>>>>> parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. > >>>>>>> Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on APS, >>>>>>> so I'm not sure what it is now. I certainly don't want them everywhere, >>>>>>> but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see their use. > >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepae z%40gmail.com > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepae z%40gmail.com > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gma il.com > > > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail .com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo bile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sat May 7 17:06:52 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 10:06:52 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] And the winner is... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Suggestions Mr. Freeman? *smile* On 5/6/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > Hmmm ... a very specific topic! :-) > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 6, 2011, at 11:58, Juan Munoz wrote: > >> Hello NABS, >> >> Thanks to your votes, the winning topic that will be May's conference >> call is technology. The call will take place on the evening of May >> 22nd. More information will be available soon. Till then, take care >> NABS. >> >> -- >> Respectfully, >> >> Juan Carlos Munoz >> President >> Texas Association of Blind Students >> www.nfb-texas.org/tabs.html >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From k7uij at panix.com Sat May 7 17:31:37 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 10:31:37 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] And the winner is... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004101cc0cdc$9f0ba260$dd22e720$@panix.com> I wasn't panning the topic as such. I was merely gently intimating that it might be a bit broad! (grin) Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 10:07 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] And the winner is... Suggestions Mr. Freeman? *smile* On 5/6/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > Hmmm ... a very specific topic! :-) > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 6, 2011, at 11:58, Juan Munoz wrote: > >> Hello NABS, >> >> Thanks to your votes, the winning topic that will be May's conference >> call is technology. The call will take place on the evening of May >> 22nd. More information will be available soon. Till then, take care >> NABS. >> >> -- >> Respectfully, >> >> Juan Carlos Munoz >> President >> Texas Association of Blind Students >> www.nfb-texas.org/tabs.html >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >> .com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gm > ail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. - Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sat May 7 17:39:03 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 10:39:03 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] And the winner is... In-Reply-To: <004101cc0cdc$9f0ba260$dd22e720$@panix.com> References: <004101cc0cdc$9f0ba260$dd22e720$@panix.com> Message-ID: Agreed, Lucky for you, and Students across the nabs network, The membership committee (whoever they may bbe) is on the case! lol. On 5/7/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > I wasn't panning the topic as such. I was merely gently intimating that it > might be a bit broad! (grin) > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Darian Smith > Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 10:07 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] And the winner is... > > Suggestions Mr. Freeman? *smile* > > On 5/6/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> Hmmm ... a very specific topic! :-) >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 6, 2011, at 11:58, Juan Munoz wrote: >> >>> Hello NABS, >>> >>> Thanks to your votes, the winning topic that will be May's conference >>> call is technology. The call will take place on the evening of May >>> 22nd. More information will be available soon. Till then, take care >>> NABS. >>> >>> -- >>> Respectfully, >>> >>> Juan Carlos Munoz >>> President >>> Texas Association of Blind Students >>> www.nfb-texas.org/tabs.html >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >>> .com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gm >> ail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From seacknit at gmail.com Sat May 7 17:51:32 2011 From: seacknit at gmail.com (Sally Thomas) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 12:51:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF to WORD Converter software In-Reply-To: <004001cc0cca$6ed82d50$4c8887f0$@panix.com> References: <20110504165613.21838.2313@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal><33605682-8DED-4051-A00A-6A77FB3C67AE@gmail.com> <004001cc0cca$6ed82d50$4c8887f0$@panix.com> Message-ID: <176607B6B14249E68848B9E7017E74AE@OwnerPC> Hi Folks, Do any of you use pdf to Word converter software? Do you have favorites or any pitfalls to avoid? Thanks. Sally Thomas From z.dreicer at emissives.com Sat May 7 18:00:45 2011 From: z.dreicer at emissives.com (dreicer, zachary) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 12:00:45 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF to WORD Converter software Message-ID: i've heard a website will do that. I also have an email address for pdf to text. You know, David, Stephen or Jorge might know. Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sally Thomas" I could be wrong here Zach, but is the addressconvertfiles.com? Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: "dreicer, zachary" Hello Sally and everyone, We recently began using a product called "Doxillian" which is produced by a company in Australia called NCH Software. This package allows one to convert between different versions of Word, PDF, TXT,RTF, and other file formats. We've used it to convert Word .docx files to Word .doc files so we can read them in Word XP. Best of all this product is free and allows you to convert documents between multiple file formats. The direct URL for more information and to download the package is: http://www.nchsoftware.com/documentconvert/index.html Did I say that this product is completely free? That's right. NCH also offers a number of other packages for Windows and the MAC that work very well with screen reading software out-of-the-box. Their main site is at: http://www.nch.com.au Hope this helps. See y'all in Orlando. Peter Donahue "Will you come and awake our lost land from its slumber And her fetters we'll break, links that long are encumbered. And the air will resound with hosannas to greet you On the shore will be found gallant Irishmen to greet you." Will You Come to the Bower Traditional Irish Folk Song From z.dreicer at emissives.com Sat May 7 20:16:23 2011 From: z.dreicer at emissives.com (dreicer, zachary) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 14:16:23 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF to WORD Converter software Message-ID: i think so Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Josh Gregory Hello: I am Terri Wilcox, Secretary of the National Federation of the Blind of Michigan. My husband and I have the privilege of leading the Braille Camp this year at Camp Tuhsmeheta. Most of the students who attend are between twelve and eighteen years old. Most, but not all know Braille. Our emphasis is primarily on improving Braille reading speed. Our library at Camp Tuhsmeheta has many books for young children, but not many for this age range. Do any of you have, or know where I can obtain Braille books in the Harry Potter series for this camp. I would like to send every student home with one hard copy Braille book that they can keep for themselves. If anyone has books they would be willing to donate, please contact me at trising at sbcglobal.net If you have books that we could borrow but would need them back, please also contact me at the email address above. Thank you for your consideration of this matter. Terri Wilcox Secretary, National Federation of the Blind of Michigan Ann Arbor Chapter President From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sat May 7 20:20:16 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 16:20:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF to WORD Converter software Message-ID: <4dc5a99d.05a2e60a.3ca7.3def@mx.google.com> I have scene this site before, hmmm... wonder if it works. Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: "dreicer, zachary" Dear Nabs List, I'm helping a friend learn how to use computers. Due to some circumstances I don't want to go in to, he's pretty much on his own with money and he can afford a decent laptop. He has very little experience using computers. Since he can't afford jaws, I was thinking about setting him up with NVDA and getting him started that way. Do you guys think that's a viable option for basic computer use-web browsing, email, word processing and the like? If so, how steap is the learning curve. I consider myself an intermediate to advanced computer user, I've used jaws for years, but how similar is the NVDA interface with jaws? I'd appreciate it if any NVDA users could get in touch with me, either on or off-list. Warmest regards, Kirt From z.dreicer at emissives.com Sat May 7 20:38:45 2011 From: z.dreicer at emissives.com (dreicer, zachary) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 14:38:45 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] A few questions about NVDA Message-ID: it's sort-of simil Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring Message-ID: <721641CD16934405B1C5B5F93DE04906@stanford.edu> I think that NBP sells all seven of the books. ----- Original Message ----- From: "trising" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" ; "Michigan Association of Blind Students" ; "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" ; "NFBnet Blind Parents Mailing List" ; "NFBofMichigan List" Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 1:18 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Harry Potter Braille Books Needed > Hello: > I am Terri Wilcox, Secretary of the National Federation of the Blind of > Michigan. My husband and I have the privilege of leading > the Braille Camp this year at Camp Tuhsmeheta. Most of the students who > attend are between twelve and eighteen years old. Most, but > not all know Braille. Our emphasis is primarily on improving Braille > reading speed. Our library at Camp Tuhsmeheta has many books > for young children, but not many for this age range. Do any of you have, > or know where I can obtain Braille books in the Harry > Potter series for this camp. I would like to send every student home with > one hard copy Braille book that they can keep for > themselves. If anyone has books they would be willing to donate, please > contact me at > trising at sbcglobal.net > If you have books that we could borrow but would need them back, please > also contact me at the email address above. > Thank you for your consideration of this matter. > > Terri Wilcox > Secretary, National Federation of the Blind of Michigan > Ann Arbor Chapter President > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sat May 7 20:40:17 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 16:40:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A few questions about NVDA Message-ID: <4dc5ae4e.028de50a.19ad.ffff958e@mx.google.com> Kirt, from what I have seen and done with it, as I do have it, it's basically the same as JAWS but with a few command changes, to get to NVDA menu while in it press insert N, things like that. It's about as customizable as JAWS. You can change the NVDA key from insert to shift, things like that. The web browser experience is good, pretty similar to JAWS, form fields, headings, all that. Edit fields are similar to JAWS, tab to an edit box, type in your info and when you hit enter it'll give kind of a clicking sound to tell you the text has been entered. I imagine the rest of the browser stuff is the same as JAWS. That's the web browser portion of it, and I imagine that it'd work the same with JAWS as most other apps like MS word and email and stuff like that. What do people think? And, as I'm sure I've left * a lot * of stuff out, if I have, can people please add to this? Thanks! HTH, Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring References: <4dc5ae4e.028de50a.19ad.ffff958e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Josh, Does it work with with the new MS word (2007/2010?) On 5/7/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > Kirt, from what I have seen and done with it, as I do have it, > it's basically the same as JAWS but with a few command changes, > to get to NVDA menu while in it press insert N, things like that. > It's about as customizable as JAWS. You can change the NVDA key > from insert to shift, things like that. The web browser > experience is good, pretty similar to JAWS, form fields, > headings, all that. Edit fields are similar to JAWS, tab to an > edit box, type in your info and when you hit enter it'll give > kind of a clicking sound to tell you the text has been entered. > I imagine the rest of the browser stuff is the same as JAWS. > That's the web browser portion of it, and I imagine that it'd > work the same with JAWS as most other apps like MS word and email > and stuff like that. What do people think? And, as I'm sure I've > left * a lot * of stuff out, if I have, can people please add to > this? Thanks! > HTH, > Josh > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 7 May 2011 14:22:06 -0600 > Subject: [nabs-l] A few questions about NVDA > > Dear Nabs List, > I'm helping a friend learn how to use computers. Due to some > circumstances I don't want to go in to, he's pretty much on his > own > with money and he can afford a decent laptop. He has very little > experience using computers. Since he can't afford jaws, I was > thinking about setting him up with NVDA and getting him started > that > way. Do you guys think that's a viable option for basic computer > use-web browsing, email, word processing and the like? If so, > how > steap is the learning curve. I consider myself an intermediate > to > advanced computer user, I've used jaws for years, but how similar > is > the NVDA interface with jaws? I'd appreciate it if any NVDA > users > could get in touch with me, either on or off-list. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From k7uij at panix.com Sat May 7 21:06:23 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 14:06:23 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF to Word Converter In-Reply-To: <000301cc0ce7$802467f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <000301cc0ce7$802467f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <005101cc0cfa$9fb15ca0$df1415e0$@panix.com> Word XP? Office 2007 and Office 2010 run just fine under XP. Don't you mean MS Word 2003? Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 11:49 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Cc: Andy & Sally Thomas Subject: [nabs-l] PDF to Word Converter Hello Sally and everyone, We recently began using a product called "Doxillian" which is produced by a company in Australia called NCH Software. This package allows one to convert between different versions of Word, PDF, TXT,RTF, and other file formats. We've used it to convert Word .docx files to Word .doc files so we can read them in Word XP. Best of all this product is free and allows you to convert documents between multiple file formats. The direct URL for more information and to download the package is: http://www.nchsoftware.com/documentconvert/index.html Did I say that this product is completely free? That's right. NCH also offers a number of other packages for Windows and the MAC that work very well with screen reading software out-of-the-box. Their main site is at: http://www.nch.com.au Hope this helps. See y'all in Orlando. Peter Donahue "Will you come and awake our lost land from its slumber And her fetters we'll break, links that long are encumbered. And the air will resound with hosannas to greet you On the shore will be found gallant Irishmen to greet you." Will You Come to the Bower Traditional Irish Folk Song _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sat May 7 21:16:39 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 17:16:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF to WORD Converter software In-Reply-To: <176607B6B14249E68848B9E7017E74AE@OwnerPC> References: <20110504165613.21838.2313@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal><33605682-8DED-4051-A00A-6A77FB3C67AE@gmail.com> <004001cc0cca$6ed82d50$4c8887f0$@panix.com> <176607B6B14249E68848B9E7017E74AE@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <26D380EE-33EF-4797-A887-7B97BA6032F2@gmail.com> I don't use any software, but there is a site to do it. Its Zamzar.com, converts any files from any format into txt, doc, docx, etc. Jorge On May 7, 2011, at 1:51 PM, Sally Thomas wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Do any of you use pdf to Word converter software? Do you have favorites or any pitfalls to avoid? > > Thanks. > > Sally Thomas > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sat May 7 21:24:55 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 17:24:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A few questions about NVDA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <383DE84A-D618-4E44-8B1E-4F88AD7F3DDC@gmail.com> Certainly. NVDA has the basic command structure as JFW with some additions. Email me off list if you need help. Jorge On May 7, 2011, at 4:22 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Dear Nabs List, > I'm helping a friend learn how to use computers. Due to some > circumstances I don't want to go in to, he's pretty much on his own > with money and he can afford a decent laptop. He has very little > experience using computers. Since he can't afford jaws, I was > thinking about setting him up with NVDA and getting him started that > way. Do you guys think that's a viable option for basic computer > use-web browsing, email, word processing and the like? If so, how > steap is the learning curve. I consider myself an intermediate to > advanced computer user, I've used jaws for years, but how similar is > the NVDA interface with jaws? I'd appreciate it if any NVDA users > could get in touch with me, either on or off-list. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Sat May 7 21:51:21 2011 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 16:51:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF to Word Converter References: <000301cc0ce7$802467f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <005101cc0cfa$9fb15ca0$df1415e0$@panix.com> Message-ID: <000f01cc0d00$e76663f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Mike and everyone, We're still using Office XP here. It's meeting our needs well so we have had no need to upgrade though that may change in the near future. It's the old adage of "If it ain't broke don't fix it." Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF to Word Converter Word XP? Office 2007 and Office 2010 run just fine under XP. Don't you mean MS Word 2003? Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 11:49 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Cc: Andy & Sally Thomas Subject: [nabs-l] PDF to Word Converter Hello Sally and everyone, We recently began using a product called "Doxillian" which is produced by a company in Australia called NCH Software. This package allows one to convert between different versions of Word, PDF, TXT,RTF, and other file formats. We've used it to convert Word .docx files to Word .doc files so we can read them in Word XP. Best of all this product is free and allows you to convert documents between multiple file formats. The direct URL for more information and to download the package is: http://www.nchsoftware.com/documentconvert/index.html Did I say that this product is completely free? That's right. NCH also offers a number of other packages for Windows and the MAC that work very well with screen reading software out-of-the-box. Their main site is at: http://www.nch.com.au Hope this helps. See y'all in Orlando. Peter Donahue "Will you come and awake our lost land from its slumber And her fetters we'll break, links that long are encumbered. And the air will resound with hosannas to greet you On the shore will be found gallant Irishmen to greet you." Will You Come to the Bower Traditional Irish Folk Song _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sat May 7 21:53:10 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 17:53:10 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A few questions about NVDA Message-ID: <4dc5bf63.0ac6e60a.3598.3f78@mx.google.com> To be honest, I'm not sure. Does anybody know? Thanks. Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: Kirt, from what I have seen and done with it, as I do have it, it's basically the same as JAWS but with a few command changes, to get to NVDA menu while in it press insert N, things like that. It's about as customizable as JAWS. You can change the NVDA key from insert to shift, things like that. The web browser experience is good, pretty similar to JAWS, form fields, headings, all that. Edit fields are similar to JAWS, tab to an edit box, type in your info and when you hit enter it'll give kind of a clicking sound to tell you the text has been entered. I imagine the rest of the browser stuff is the same as JAWS. That's the web browser portion of it, and I imagine that it'd work the same with JAWS as most other apps like MS word and email and stuff like that. What do people think? And, as I'm sure I've left * a lot * of stuff out, if I have, can people please add to this? Thanks! HTH, Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring References: <4dc5bf63.0ac6e60a.3598.3f78@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <005701cc0d01$e024d3a0$a06e7ae0$@panix.com> The one thing you won't get, of course, is the JAWS virtual Ribbon Menu feature. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Josh Gregory Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 2:53 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A few questions about NVDA To be honest, I'm not sure. Does anybody know? Thanks. Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: Kirt, from what I have seen and done with it, as I do have it, it's basically the same as JAWS but with a few command changes, to get to NVDA menu while in it press insert N, things like that. It's about as customizable as JAWS. You can change the NVDA key from insert to shift, things like that. The web browser experience is good, pretty similar to JAWS, form fields, headings, all that. Edit fields are similar to JAWS, tab to an edit box, type in your info and when you hit enter it'll give kind of a clicking sound to tell you the text has been entered. I imagine the rest of the browser stuff is the same as JAWS. That's the web browser portion of it, and I imagine that it'd work the same with JAWS as most other apps like MS word and email and stuff like that. What do people think? And, as I'm sure I've left * a lot * of stuff out, if I have, can people please add to this? Thanks! HTH, Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring References: <4dc5bf63.0ac6e60a.3598.3f78@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <2432833E-42AE-4936-B321-5ECDF03F09D2@gmail.com> I know zamzar.com works, I don't know any other solution. On May 7, 2011, at 5:53 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: > To be honest, I'm not sure. Does anybody know? Thanks. > Josh > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 7 May 2011 14:59:32 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A few questions about NVDA > > Josh, > Does it work with with the new MS word (2007/2010?) > > On 5/7/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > Kirt, from what I have seen and done with it, as I do have it, > it's basically the same as JAWS but with a few command changes, > to get to NVDA menu while in it press insert N, things like that. > It's about as customizable as JAWS. You can change the NVDA key > from insert to shift, things like that. The web browser > experience is good, pretty similar to JAWS, form fields, > headings, all that. Edit fields are similar to JAWS, tab to an > edit box, type in your info and when you hit enter it'll give > kind of a clicking sound to tell you the text has been entered. > I imagine the rest of the browser stuff is the same as JAWS. > That's the web browser portion of it, and I imagine that it'd > work the same with JAWS as most other apps like MS word and email > and stuff like that. What do people think? And, as I'm sure I've > left * a lot * of stuff out, if I have, can people please add to > this? Thanks! > HTH, > Josh > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 7 May 2011 14:22:06 -0600 > Subject: [nabs-l] A few questions about NVDA > > Dear Nabs List, > I'm helping a friend learn how to use computers. Due to some > circumstances I don't want to go in to, he's pretty much on his > own > with money and he can afford a decent laptop. He has very little > experience using computers. Since he can't afford jaws, I was > thinking about setting him up with NVDA and getting him started > that > way. Do you guys think that's a viable option for basic computer > use-web browsing, email, word processing and the like? If so, > how > steap is the learning curve. I consider myself an intermediate > to > advanced computer user, I've used jaws for years, but how similar > is > the NVDA interface with jaws? I'd appreciate it if any NVDA > users > could get in touch with me, either on or off-list. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Sat May 7 22:29:16 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 15:29:16 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF to Word Converter References: <000301cc0ce7$802467f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><005101cc0cfa$9fb15ca0$df1415e0$@panix.com> <000f01cc0d00$e76663f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Amen. I am going to hold on to XP and Outlook Express for as long as I can. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF to Word Converter > Hello Mike and everyone, > > We're still using Office XP here. It's meeting our needs well so we have > had > no need to upgrade though that may change in the near future. It's the old > adage of "If it ain't broke don't fix it." > > Peter Donahue > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 4:06 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF to Word Converter > > > Word XP? Office 2007 and Office 2010 run just fine under XP. Don't you > mean MS Word 2003? > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Peter Donahue > Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 11:49 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Cc: Andy & Sally Thomas > Subject: [nabs-l] PDF to Word Converter > > Hello Sally and everyone, > > We recently began using a product called "Doxillian" which is produced > by a company in Australia called NCH Software. This package allows one to > convert between different versions of Word, PDF, TXT,RTF, and other file > formats. We've used it to convert Word .docx files to Word .doc files so > we > can read them in Word XP. Best of all this product is free and allows you > to > > convert documents between multiple file formats. The direct URL for more > information and to download the package is: > http://www.nchsoftware.com/documentconvert/index.html > > Did I say that this product is completely free? That's right. > > NCH also offers a number of other packages for Windows and the MAC that > work very well with screen reading software out-of-the-box. Their main > site > is at: > http://www.nch.com.au > > Hope this helps. See y'all in Orlando. > > Peter Donahue > > "Will you come and awake our lost land from its slumber > And her fetters we'll break, links that long are encumbered. > And the air will resound with hosannas to greet you > On the shore will be found gallant Irishmen to greet you." > Will You Come to the Bower > Traditional Irish Folk Song > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sat May 7 22:48:38 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 18:48:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A few questions about NVDA Message-ID: <4dc5cc64.454de50a.09b8.ffff98c1@mx.google.com> Can it convert audio files too? For instance, MP3 to WMA, WAV to AAC, etc? Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez wrote: Kirt, from what I have seen and done with it, as I do have it, it's basically the same as JAWS but with a few command changes, to get to NVDA menu while in it press insert N, things like that. It's about as customizable as JAWS. You can change the NVDA key from insert to shift, things like that. The web browser experience is good, pretty similar to JAWS, form fields, headings, all that. Edit fields are similar to JAWS, tab to an edit box, type in your info and when you hit enter it'll give kind of a clicking sound to tell you the text has been entered. I imagine the rest of the browser stuff is the same as JAWS. That's the web browser portion of it, and I imagine that it'd work the same with JAWS as most other apps like MS word and email and stuff like that. What do people think? And, as I'm sure I've left * a lot * of stuff out, if I have, can people please add to this? Thanks! HTH, Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring References: <4dc5cc64.454de50a.09b8.ffff98c1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <3627F7FC-DB21-4A8B-8C12-69FD664FE71A@gmail.com> Zamzar, yes. On May 7, 2011, at 6:48 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: > Can it convert audio files too? For instance, MP3 to WMA, WAV to AAC, etc? > Josh > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 7 May 2011 18:28:01 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A few questions about NVDA > > I know zamzar.com works, > I don't know any other solution. > > > On May 7, 2011, at 5:53 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: > > To be honest, I'm not sure. Does anybody know? Thanks. > Josh > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 7 May 2011 14:59:32 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A few questions about NVDA > > Josh, > Does it work with with the new MS word (2007/2010?) > > On 5/7/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > Kirt, from what I have seen and done with it, as I do have it, > it's basically the same as JAWS but with a few command changes, > to get to NVDA menu while in it press insert N, things like that. > It's about as customizable as JAWS. You can change the NVDA key > from insert to shift, things like that. The web browser > experience is good, pretty similar to JAWS, form fields, > headings, all that. Edit fields are similar to JAWS, tab to an > edit box, type in your info and when you hit enter it'll give > kind of a clicking sound to tell you the text has been entered. > I imagine the rest of the browser stuff is the same as JAWS. > That's the web browser portion of it, and I imagine that it'd > work the same with JAWS as most other apps like MS word and email > and stuff like that. What do people think? And, as I'm sure I've > left * a lot * of stuff out, if I have, can people please add to > this? Thanks! > HTH, > Josh > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 7 May 2011 14:22:06 -0600 > Subject: [nabs-l] A few questions about NVDA > > Dear Nabs List, > I'm helping a friend learn how to use computers. Due to some > circumstances I don't want to go in to, he's pretty much on his > own > with money and he can afford a decent laptop. He has very little > experience using computers. Since he can't afford jaws, I was > thinking about setting him up with NVDA and getting him started > that > way. Do you guys think that's a viable option for basic computer > use-web browsing, email, word processing and the like? If so, > how > steap is the learning curve. I consider myself an intermediate > to > advanced computer user, I've used jaws for years, but how similar > is > the NVDA interface with jaws? I'd appreciate it if any NVDA > users > could get in touch with me, either on or off-list. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sat May 7 22:57:45 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 18:57:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A few questions about NVDA Message-ID: <4dc5ce86.05a2e60a.3ca7.3f6d@mx.google.com> Cool! Thanks! Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez wrote: Kirt, from what I have seen and done with it, as I do have it, it's basically the same as JAWS but with a few command changes, to get to NVDA menu while in it press insert N, things like that. It's about as customizable as JAWS. You can change the NVDA key from insert to shift, things like that. The web browser experience is good, pretty similar to JAWS, form fields, headings, all that. Edit fields are similar to JAWS, tab to an edit box, type in your info and when you hit enter it'll give kind of a clicking sound to tell you the text has been entered. I imagine the rest of the browser stuff is the same as JAWS. That's the web browser portion of it, and I imagine that it'd work the same with JAWS as most other apps like MS word and email and stuff like that. What do people think? And, as I'm sure I've left * a lot * of stuff out, if I have, can people please add to this? Thanks! HTH, Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring References: <20110504165613.21838.2313@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <33605682-8DED-4051-A00A-6A77FB3C67AE@gmail.com> <004001cc0cca$6ed82d50$4c8887f0$@panix.com> Message-ID: I think it goes without saying that one shouldn't cross the street unless they both hear a favorable sound from the APS and also don't hear any perpendicular or turning traffic. There is one light with an APS that I use here in Boulder and I always wait a few seconds after the APS starts up to be sure nobody is running the light or making a quick turn. Still get across with plenty of time to spare. Arielle On 5/7/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > One of the guys in our Agriculture and Equestrian Division who lives in San > diego tells of an instance when a car pulled up to an intersection with an > APS (there are quite a number in that city) and, rather than looking at the > light, just listened for the APS. He stepped on the gas and ran smackdab > into a car broadside because the light wasn't in his favor. Turns out there > was actually a bird that sounded like the APS and he thought it *was* the > APS when, in fact, the APS hadn't sounded. (grin) I think the Ag and Eq > division member's name is Fred chambers. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Ignasi Cambra > Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 1:39 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS > > I don't think people would get confused though... I mean sounds are > different when they come out of a speaker... Well, in any case I hope they > don't have any of those birds in Madrid cause if they do they must be > learning lots of things these days :). > On May 4, 2011, at 12:56 PM, Jedi wrote: > >> There's just one problem with that. I believe it's Australia. In fact, I'm > sure it is. They have this bird called a lyrebird, and it has the ability to > mimic the sounds it hears. So, if it hears this special bird song and mimics > it, some blind person's life could be in danger if she or he doens't know > how to read traffic. I've heard of other birds having a similar ability as > the lyrebird. So, I'd vote for some other pleasant sound that's a little > harder for wildlife to mimic such as a piano tune or something. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Original message: >>> I just remembered that in Madrid they have an other interesting system: > where APS make this rather pleasant sound which sounds just like a bird > singing. It's actually not annoying, and they have them literally all over > the city. At this point it's just a sound that one identifies with Madrid. > The bird also sings differently depending on how much time you have left to > cross etc. The first time I heard it I thought it was funny, but the truth > is that it doesn't bother people and it does the job. >>> On May 3, 2011, at 11:26 PM, Robert Spangler wrote: >> >>>> Hello all, >> >>>> I, personally, do not have a problem with APS so long as they are spaced > far enough apart and aren't too bothersome to the public. I also think that > there should always be a button, in case those who find them annoying don't > want to use them. I don't have an issue with their presence at high-traffic > intersections or complex crossings such as those mentioned by other members > of the list; however, imagine having APS at every intersection in a downtown > area? That would be a nightmare for everyone! >> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Robby >>>> On 5/2/2011 7:42 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>> Hi Ashley and all, >> >>>>> I don't know exactly what NFB's official position is at this point. I >>>>> personally am a big fan of audible traffic signals, for a few reasons. >>>>> First, as you pointed out, there are several kinds of intersections >>>>> where the auditory cue to cross is rather subtle-such as >>>>> T-intersections, those where the parallel street is generally quiet or >>>>> those with leading turn arrows, where you have to listen for the >>>>> turning traffic to stop before crossing. I know it is possible to >>>>> reliably cross these kinds of intersections using traffic cues alone, >>>>> but the potential for mistakes (both missing the cue to cross and >>>>> inadvertently crossing at the wrong time) is substantial especially >>>>> for those who have had insufficient training. Second, as far as I >>>>> know, there is no reliable way to tell when your walk signal is about >>>>> to end. So if you come up to an intersection and the light is in your >>>>> favor, there's no way to tell whether you will have enough time to >>>>> cross before the light changes. The only really safe way to handle >>>>> this is to wait until the light turns red and then green again, which >>>>> can be inconvenient. Trust me, I've gambled on these and tried to >>>>> cross without enough time-the result is scary not to mention >>>>> embarrassing. Finally, though I know this logic is not always popular, >>>>> I do think that if the sighted are given a clear cue to cross the >>>>> street and it is not an undue hardship to make that signal accessible >>>>> to the blind, it should be done. I can't imagine an intersection where >>>>> sighted pedestrians are expected to watch the traffic without any kind >>>>> of walk signal or light indicating when it was safe to cross. >>>>> That being said, I don't think this necessarily has to be our biggest >>>>> priority at this time. I also recognize that some blind travelers find >>>>> audible signals bothersome and I would support some way of making the >>>>> sound optional or implementing a tactile (i.e. vibrating) signal, >>>>> which would also benefit the deaf-blind. >> >>>>> Arielle >> >>>>> On 5/2/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>> I thought it wasn't supposed to be enforced till like 2012? >> >> >>>>>> On May 2, 2011, at 7:14 PM, wrote: >> >>>>>>> George, >>>>>>> Actually the ACB seems as mad as ever; yes they won in the court; but > the >>>>>>> government has not produced accessible currency yet. >>>>>>> Some do not feel the decision will be enforced. >> >>>>>>> Ashley >> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:57 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS >> >>>>>>> I believe the national is officially against expanding the use of > APS. >> >>>>>>> As far as accessible currency, didn't the ACB already close that case > in >>>>>>> court? >>>>>>> ACB V. US trasury 2009 or something like that? >> >> >>>>>>> On May 2, 2011, at 6:36 PM, wrote: >> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >> >>>>>>>> I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they > are >>>>>>>> taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency >>>>>>>> topics and really trashing the NFB and they don't know the real > positions >>>>>>>> and facts. >>>>>>>> They think NFB opposes both. >>>>>>>> I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the > positions? >>>>>>>> Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. >> >>>>>>>> What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do > you >>>>>>>> think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? >>>>>>>> Personally, I'd like the APS at intersections where you have to > press the >>>>>>>> walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk signal to know > when >>>>>>>> our time starts; you have to press the button in order to tell the >>>>>>>> computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk phase to cross > the >>>>>>>> street. I think these are called actuated signals. These streets > favor >>>>>>>> drivers, not pedestrians; the busier streets get more traffic time. > That >>>>>>>> change of the signal is activated by a computer. >> >>>>>>>> At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, > without a >>>>>>>> button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues to hear to >>>>>>>> cross. >>>>>>>> I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn >>>>>>>> lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some > signals >>>>>>>> even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk interval. >> >>>>>>>> So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient > traffic >>>>>>>> cues to cross the street. I've tried to learn how to cross T > streets, >>>>>>>> and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help there too. No >>>>>>>> parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. >> >>>>>>>> Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on > APS, >>>>>>>> so I'm not sure what it is now. I certainly don't want them > everywhere, >>>>>>>> but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see their > use. >> >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepae > z%40gmail.com >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink.net >> >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepae > z%40gmail.com >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gma > il.com >> >> >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail > .com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo > bile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Sat May 7 23:48:56 2011 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 18:48:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College Message-ID: <004b01cc0d11$54c259d0$fe470d70$@com> Exactly on point, Kirt. Thanks for saying it so I didn't have to. One can accept that all people are of equal value, which I do, without thinking that all people are equal in any other regard. No two people are equal. I'd rather be bright than dull. I'd rather be strong than weak. I'd rather be healthy than infirm. And, yes, all else being equal, I'd rather be sighted than blind. Doesn't mean I'm not happy with who I am or think I am worthy of less consideration or moral value than anybody else, but it does mean that I do recognize that blindness impacts, constrains and restricts some of the things I am able to do. Anybody who does not accept this is, to my mind, kidding themselves. From kramc11 at gmail.com Sun May 8 00:29:17 2011 From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 20:29:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity References: <004b01cc0d11$54c259d0$fe470d70$@com> Message-ID: <0C98B647737B443D8B9C652DC044B1F0@cadiganpc> What is the NFB's view of the work being dun by the Foundation Fighting Blindness, and there philosophy? From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun May 8 01:39:33 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 21:39:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] And the winner is... Message-ID: <4dc5f458.a54ee50a.1e62.ffff8298@mx.google.com> Hi, Juan and all. Yea! That's awesome! Being a new member who doesn't know all this stuff, can you or someone else on the list please send me the phone number and the conference call code so I can join on the 22nd? Also, I know in Liz's first post about the topic, she said that we could suggest guest speakers on the call when voting if we wanted to. Will there be any... or is it a surprise? * Smile! Thanks! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note ----- Original Message ----- From: Juan Munoz References: <004b01cc0d11$54c259d0$fe470d70$@com> <0C98B647737B443D8B9C652DC044B1F0@cadiganpc> Message-ID: <006901cc0d21$4f288840$ed7998c0$@panix.com> NFB hasn't enunciated an official position insofar as I am aware. I suspect, however, that you could easily get a consensus from most NFB members who know much about the RP Foundation. Mostly, we and it just ignore each other. Mike Freeman -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. Cadigan Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 5:29 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity What is the NFB's view of the work being dun by the Foundation Fighting Blindness, and there philosophy? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun May 8 02:34:55 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 22:34:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College Message-ID: <20110508023455.16630.9590@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Yeah, I'd say so. But I was thinking a while ago and realized that there are loads of cases where training is required in order to function, not just blindness. I can't remember what specific examples I thought of at the time, but I'm sure they'll hit me at some God-forsaken hour of the night. Respectfully, JEdi Original message: > Jedi, > Maybe it'll makemore sense if I say it this way. I wasn't refering > to a person's intrinsic value. I should've said we can't compete on > an equal level by default. I'm going to invert a statement you've > heard a billion times. Without propper training and opportunity, > blindness is a great deal more than a mere nuisence, and is, in fact, > a very significant limitation. Would you agree? > Best regards, > Kirt > On 5/7/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time back in 2004. >> I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was always playing >> outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the time and we >> were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. Actually, when they >> were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide dog, but >> Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog walking too fast >> :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is still working >> wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog they assigned >> me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the advantage of >> instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from for each >> person. >> IC >> On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: >>> I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him and was >>> quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind of guy >>> who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good kid. >>> I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It makes so >>> much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible >>> Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> Original message: >>>> What do you guys think of this? >>>> http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun May 8 02:41:17 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 22:41:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity Message-ID: <20110508024117.16613.86658@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> I can't speak for the NFB, but I'll tell you what I think. I think it's unfortunate that the FFB uses fear to raise funds for ophthalmological research. For example, they do these dining in the dark experiences where sighted people have to try to eat without seeing. You can imagine what a disaster that is, so they then equate their experience with that of blind people and give money because, oh, isn't it aweful to be blind? From what I gather, they don't talk at all to people about the things that the blind are doing to live productively. It's all based in this medical model that sees us as sick or broken. I certainly don't see myself as that way, and I imagine that many of you all don't, either. But from what I gather, the blind guys that do participate at the FFB do think of themselves as sick or broken. On the other hand, I've heard rumors that some NFB guys have recently gotten involved for one reason or another. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > What is the NFB's view of the work being dun by the Foundation Fighting > Blindness, and there philosophy? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Sun May 8 03:06:13 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 20:06:13 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College References: <20110508023455.16630.9590@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Lol, yes. Why is it that everything comes to you when you are in bed? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jedi" To: Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 7:34 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College > Yeah, I'd say so. But I was thinking a while ago and realized that there > are loads of cases where training is required in order to function, not > just blindness. I can't remember what specific examples I thought of at > the time, but I'm sure they'll hit me at some God-forsaken hour of the > night. > > Respectfully, > JEdi > > Original message: >> Jedi, >> Maybe it'll makemore sense if I say it this way. I wasn't refering >> to a person's intrinsic value. I should've said we can't compete on >> an equal level by default. I'm going to invert a statement you've >> heard a billion times. Without propper training and opportunity, >> blindness is a great deal more than a mere nuisence, and is, in fact, >> a very significant limitation. Would you agree? >> Best regards, >> Kirt > >> On 5/7/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>> I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time back in >>> 2004. >>> I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was always >>> playing >>> outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the time and we >>> were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. Actually, when >>> they >>> were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide dog, but >>> Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog walking too >>> fast >>> :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is still >>> working >>> wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog they >>> assigned >>> me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the advantage of >>> instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from for each >>> person. > >>> IC >>> On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: > >>>> I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him and >>>> was >>>> quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind of >>>> guy >>>> who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good kid. > >>>> I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It makes >>>> so >>>> much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible >>>> Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. > >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi > >>>> Original message: >>>>> What do you guys think of this? >>>>> http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 8 03:09:18 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 23:09:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College Message-ID: <4dc6097c.a54ee50a.1e5f.ffff8518@mx.google.com> Um... maybe Cause your mind is more relaxed? You don't have to think about much so you can think more clearly? IDK. Just my late-night thoughts... Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" wrote: I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time back in 2004. I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was always playing outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the time and we were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. Actually, when they were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide dog, but Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog walking too fast :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is still working wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog they assigned me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the advantage of instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from for each person. IC On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him and was quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind of guy who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good kid. I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It makes so much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: What do you guys think of this? http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind jedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam bra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind jedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From k7uij at panix.com Sun May 8 03:11:53 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 20:11:53 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College In-Reply-To: References: <20110508023455.16630.9590@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: <007a01cc0d2d$aecfdfd0$0c6f9f70$@panix.com> Or in the shower? Some of my best philosophical writing got its start in the shower. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 8:06 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College Lol, yes. Why is it that everything comes to you when you are in bed? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jedi" To: Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 7:34 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College > Yeah, I'd say so. But I was thinking a while ago and realized that there > are loads of cases where training is required in order to function, not > just blindness. I can't remember what specific examples I thought of at > the time, but I'm sure they'll hit me at some God-forsaken hour of the > night. > > Respectfully, > JEdi > > Original message: >> Jedi, >> Maybe it'll makemore sense if I say it this way. I wasn't refering >> to a person's intrinsic value. I should've said we can't compete on >> an equal level by default. I'm going to invert a statement you've >> heard a billion times. Without propper training and opportunity, >> blindness is a great deal more than a mere nuisence, and is, in fact, >> a very significant limitation. Would you agree? >> Best regards, >> Kirt > >> On 5/7/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>> I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time back in >>> 2004. >>> I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was always >>> playing >>> outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the time and we >>> were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. Actually, when >>> they >>> were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide dog, but >>> Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog walking too >>> fast >>> :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is still >>> working >>> wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog they >>> assigned >>> me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the advantage of >>> instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from for each >>> person. > >>> IC >>> On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: > >>>> I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him and >>>> was >>>> quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind of >>>> guy >>>> who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good kid. > >>>> I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It makes >>>> so >>>> much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible >>>> Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. > >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi > >>>> Original message: >>>>> What do you guys think of this? >>>>> http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo bile.net > >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail .com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo bile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecab le.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From k7uij at panix.com Sun May 8 03:19:57 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 20:19:57 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College In-Reply-To: <4dc6097c.a54ee50a.1e5f.ffff8518@mx.google.com> References: <4dc6097c.a54ee50a.1e5f.ffff8518@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <008001cc0d2e$cf229ab0$6d67d010$@panix.com> Or perhaps whatever god you believe in knows you can't write your insights down so, taking a page from the Devil, inspires all sorts of universally true and enlightening insights a la Firmat's Theorem that will vanish into thin air in the morning. (grin) Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Josh Gregory Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 8:09 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College Um... maybe Cause your mind is more relaxed? You don't have to think about much so you can think more clearly? IDK. Just my late-night thoughts... Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" wrote: I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time back in 2004. I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was always playing outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the time and we were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. Actually, when they were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide dog, but Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog walking too fast :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is still working wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog they assigned me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the advantage of instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from for each person. IC On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him and was quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind of guy who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good kid. I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It makes so much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: What do you guys think of this? http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind jedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam bra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind jedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 8 03:21:06 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 23:21:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College Message-ID: <4dc60c40.9247e60a.28d8.4030@mx.google.com> Hmm... interesting. If I can say this here: I do * not * think we are helpless. I myself offten advocate for myself and while I sometimes do not like doing things for myself, I know that I have to, and so I do. I am in a house at the Maryland School for the Blind where this is promoted, the Rancher. If anyone wants to know of my experiences, (as I am in a wheelchair as well as blind) definitely feel free to write me offlist. Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" wrote: I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time back in 2004. I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was always playing outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the time and we were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. Actually, when they were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide dog, but Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog walking too fast :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is still working wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog they assigned me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the advantage of instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from for each person. IC On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him and was quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind of guy who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good kid. I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It makes so much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: What do you guys think of this? http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind jedi%40samo bile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam bra%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gma il.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind jedi%40samo bile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecab le.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 8 03:25:20 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 23:25:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College Message-ID: <4dc60d3e.05a2e60a.5d56.4056@mx.google.com> Hey, can you explain that? I find it interesting. Your thought, I mean. Feel free to write offlist if you want. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" wrote: I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time back in 2004. I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was always playing outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the time and we were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. Actually, when they were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide dog, but Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog walking too fast :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is still working wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog they assigned me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the advantage of instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from for each person. IC On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him and was quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind of guy who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good kid. I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It makes so much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: What do you guys think of this? http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind jedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam bra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind jedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Sun May 8 03:26:15 2011 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 23:26:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Feedback Wanted From Students Message-ID: Hi All! As you may or may not know, I am the one who is responsible for putting up the recordings of the conference calls for download, which you can expect some this week that I'm a little behind on due to pc issues. Once I get confirmation from the membership committee, I hope to be able to give you all some incredible news. But I am looking for some feedback: I know you can go to the site, see emails here, and view twitter to find out when shows are available. Is there any interest in receiving conference call notifications via text message to your cell phone too? The script that powers the archival of calls has just had some cool updates made to it, one of them being the ability to have archive notifications sent to someone by cell phone text. So all you have to do is click on the link using your phone. In addition, the script can email people individually about notifications, so if you know anyone who is not on this list but would like to know when calls can be downloaded, that can be arranged too. If you are interested in having messages sent to your phone when archives become available (normal texting rates apply) please email me at djdrocks4ever at gmail.com with your name, cell number, and carrier. I will not share this with anyone nor will I call you unless we are friends already or unless you ask me to do so. But this info is necessary for the script to deliver these notifications to you. You can also reply here or email me off list with questions. Thanks. >From David From k7uij at panix.com Sun May 8 03:35:15 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 20:35:15 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College In-Reply-To: <4dc60d3e.05a2e60a.5d56.4056@mx.google.com> References: <4dc60d3e.05a2e60a.5d56.4056@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <008101cc0d30$f2d55400$d87ffc00$@panix.com> Actually, I'll write online as I misspelled poor Fermat's name. I was just being mischievous in insinuating that God might himself/herself be mischievous and inspire you with all sorts of world-changing insights just when you either (a) couldn't write them down or (b) were so sleepy that you didn't have the energy to get up and write them down. In either case, by morning, you will have forgotten them and the world will remain the same humdrum place it was yesterday. 9grin) Fermat was a 17th-century French mathematician who postulated a theorem in number theory for which he said he had a proof but there wasn't enough room in the margin of the book he was reading to write the proof down. The theorem wasn't proved until quite recently and the proof was so esoteric in and of itself that few mathematicians understood it. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Josh Gregory Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 8:25 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College Hey, can you explain that? I find it interesting. Your thought, I mean. Feel free to write offlist if you want. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" wrote: I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time back in 2004. I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was always playing outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the time and we were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. Actually, when they were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide dog, but Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog walking too fast :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is still working wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog they assigned me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the advantage of instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from for each person. IC On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him and was quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind of guy who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good kid. I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It makes so much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: What do you guys think of this? http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind jedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam bra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind jedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sun May 8 03:35:49 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 23:35:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Feedback Wanted From Students In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <31179FD2-2B94-4141-9058-8B48C42838FF@gmail.com> > David: What script are you using? Just wondering. On May 7, 2011, at 11:26 PM, David Dunphy wrote: > Hi All! > As you may or may not know, I am the one who is responsible for > putting up the recordings of the conference calls for download, which > you can expect some this week that I'm a little behind on due to pc > issues. > Once I get confirmation from the membership committee, I hope to be > able to give you all some incredible news. > But I am looking for some feedback: > I know you can go to the site, see emails here, and view twitter to > find out when shows are available. Is there any interest in receiving > conference call notifications via text message to your cell phone too? > The script that powers the archival of calls has just had some cool > updates made to it, one of them being the ability to have archive > notifications sent to someone by cell phone text. So all you have to > do is click on the link using your phone. > In addition, the script can email people individually about > notifications, so if you know anyone who is not on this list but would > like to know when calls can be downloaded, that can be arranged too. > If you are interested in having messages sent to your phone when > archives become available (normal texting rates apply) please email me > at > djdrocks4ever at gmail.com > with your name, cell number, and carrier. I will not share this with > anyone nor will I call you unless we are friends already or unless you > ask me to do so. But this info is necessary for the script to deliver > these notifications to you. > You can also reply here or email me off list with questions. > Thanks. >> From David > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 8 03:42:30 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 23:42:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College Message-ID: <4dc61144.a559e60a.45e0.3f0d@mx.google.com> Ah, theorems... reminds me of geometry. Very interesting though. Gets quite philosophical :) But I believe there is logic to it... the world works in mysterious ways... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" wrote: I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time back in 2004. I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was always playing outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the time and we were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. Actually, when they were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide dog, but Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog walking too fast :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is still working wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog they assigned me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the advantage of instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from for each person. IC On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him and was quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind of guy who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good kid. I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It makes so much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: What do you guys think of this? http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind jedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam bra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind jedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun May 8 03:44:34 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 21:44:34 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College In-Reply-To: <4dc60d3e.05a2e60a.5d56.4056@mx.google.com> References: <4dc60d3e.05a2e60a.5d56.4056@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Jedi, (there are a lot of people I could reply to but I want to talk to Jedi right now), Fair enough-there are certainly other disabilities, both personal or circumstancial, that are as limiting as blindness is without training-what does that have to do with blindness making us unable to perform on an equal level as the rest of the world without training and opportunity? I mean, sure there are plenty of other limiting factors in life, what does that have to do with blindness being or not being a limiting factor? Josh-helpless is bad. I think we all agree on that here. But I still say we're not equal with the sighted world, in terms of capability, without propper training. And, I'd submit, even with propper training, blindness is stil a disability and, as such, will always cause problems here and there although they would be more inconveniences than drastic debilitating issues. Just my thoughts, Kirt On 5/7/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > Hey, can you explain that? I find it interesting. Your thought, > I mean. Feel free to write offlist if you want. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Sat, 7 May 2011 20:19:57 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy > College > > Or perhaps whatever god you believe in knows you can't write your > insights > down so, taking a page from the Devil, inspires all sorts of > universally > true and enlightening insights a la Firmat's Theorem that will > vanish into > thin air in the morning. (grin) > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Josh Gregory > Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 8:09 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy > College > > Um... maybe Cause your mind is more relaxed? You don't have to > think about > much so you can think more clearly? IDK. Just my late-night > thoughts... > Josh > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 7 May 2011 20:06:13 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy > College > > Lol, yes. Why is it that everything comes to you when you are in > bed? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jedi" To: Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 7:34 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy > College > > > Yeah, I'd say so. But I was thinking a while ago and realized > that there > are loads of cases where training is required in order to > function, not > just blindness. I can't remember what specific examples I > thought of at > the time, but I'm sure they'll hit me at some God-forsaken hour > of the > night. > > Respectfully, > JEdi > > Original message: > Jedi, > Maybe it'll makemore sense if I say it this way. I wasn't > refering > to a person's intrinsic value. I should've said we can't > compete on > an equal level by default. I'm going to invert a statement > you've > heard a billion times. Without propper training and > opportunity, > blindness is a great deal more than a mere nuisence, and is, in > fact, > a very significant limitation. Would you agree? > Best regards, > Kirt > > On 5/7/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time > back in > 2004. > I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was > always > playing > outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the > time and we > were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. > Actually, when > they > were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide > dog, but > Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog > walking too > fast > :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is > still > working > wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog > they > assigned > me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the > advantage of > instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from > for each > person. > > IC > On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: > > I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met > him and > was > quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth > kind of > guy > who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good > kid. > > I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It > makes > so > much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible > Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: > What do you guys think of this? > http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind > jedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. > Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam > bra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind > jedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. > Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Sun May 8 03:47:08 2011 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 23:47:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Feedback Wanted From Students In-Reply-To: <31179FD2-2B94-4141-9058-8B48C42838FF@gmail.com> References: <31179FD2-2B94-4141-9058-8B48C42838FF@gmail.com> Message-ID: It's one I paid Philip of BlastbayStudios http://www.blastbay.com to develop for archiving shows on my radio station. I use that same script here. On 5/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> David: > What script are you using? > Just wondering. > > > On May 7, 2011, at 11:26 PM, David Dunphy wrote: > >> Hi All! >> As you may or may not know, I am the one who is responsible for >> putting up the recordings of the conference calls for download, which >> you can expect some this week that I'm a little behind on due to pc >> issues. >> Once I get confirmation from the membership committee, I hope to be >> able to give you all some incredible news. >> But I am looking for some feedback: >> I know you can go to the site, see emails here, and view twitter to >> find out when shows are available. Is there any interest in receiving >> conference call notifications via text message to your cell phone too? >> The script that powers the archival of calls has just had some cool >> updates made to it, one of them being the ability to have archive >> notifications sent to someone by cell phone text. So all you have to >> do is click on the link using your phone. >> In addition, the script can email people individually about >> notifications, so if you know anyone who is not on this list but would >> like to know when calls can be downloaded, that can be arranged too. >> If you are interested in having messages sent to your phone when >> archives become available (normal texting rates apply) please email me >> at >> djdrocks4ever at gmail.com >> with your name, cell number, and carrier. I will not share this with >> anyone nor will I call you unless we are friends already or unless you >> ask me to do so. But this info is necessary for the script to deliver >> these notifications to you. >> You can also reply here or email me off list with questions. >> Thanks. >>> From David >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djdrocks4ever%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun May 8 03:47:27 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 21:47:27 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity In-Reply-To: <20110508024117.16613.86658@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> References: <20110508024117.16613.86658@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Mark, I remember a speech, either by dr. Jernigan or dr. Ten Broek (I think it was Ten Broek), where he mentioned that the aspiration to fight blindness was "no doubt a worthy goal", or something along those lines. But, as we've seen on other discussions on-list, opinions of individual Federationists would probably vary considerably. Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/7/11, Jedi wrote: > I can't speak for the NFB, but I'll tell you what I think. > > I think it's unfortunate that the FFB uses fear to raise funds for > ophthalmological research. For example, they do these dining in the > dark experiences where sighted people have to try to eat without > seeing. You can imagine what a disaster that is, so they then equate > their experience with that of blind people and give money because, oh, > isn't it aweful to be blind? From what I gather, they don't talk at all > to people about the things that the blind are doing to live > productively. It's all based in this medical model that sees us as sick > or broken. I certainly don't see myself as that way, and I imagine that > many of you all don't, either. But from what I gather, the blind guys > that do participate at the FFB do think of themselves as sick or > broken. On the other hand, I've heard rumors that some NFB guys have > recently gotten involved for one reason or another. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: > > >> What is the NFB's view of the work being dun by the Foundation Fighting >> Blindness, and there philosophy? > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 8 03:52:08 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 23:52:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College Message-ID: <4dc61386.a559e60a.253c.4366@mx.google.com> I agree completely. I mean, where would I be today without O and M or OT or any other therapy I had when I was in public school? I am, in fact, still having these therapies, so that, when I go out in the world in about a year or so when I will graduate from high school, I will be able to function to the best of my abilities. Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: Hey, can you explain that? I find it interesting. Your thought, I mean. Feel free to write offlist if you want. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" wrote: I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time back in 2004. I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was always playing outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the time and we were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. Actually, when they were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide dog, but Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog walking too fast :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is still working wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog they assigned me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the advantage of instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from for each person. IC On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him and was quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind of guy who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good kid. I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It makes so much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: What do you guys think of this? http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind jedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam bra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind jedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From nabs.president at gmail.com Sun May 8 04:20:36 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 22:20:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College In-Reply-To: References: <4dc60d3e.05a2e60a.5d56.4056@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Jedi and all, Funny-just a few nights ago I was also thinking about how sighted people also need training to function optimally in the world-maybe we were thinking about it at the same time? Anyway, sighted children are taught how to read, how to type on the computer and how to cross the street and sighted teens have to be taught how to drive. Sighted people also don't just magically know how to cook, clean or do laundry-all of that is taught from one person to another. So the sighted need training just as much as we do. For that matter, they also need opportunity-funds to pay for a college education, job openings they qualify for, etc. Without training and opportunity, anyone is disadvantaged-anyone in our society who is illiterate or who doesn't know how to cook for himself or who can't afford an education is at a relative disadvantage. The big "but" in all this is that even though the blind and sighted are equally in need of training and opportunity, sighted people are much more likely to have proper training and adequate opportunity than are the blind. This is because the training blind people need is different, highly specialized, and there are few people or entities qualified to provide it. For example, print literacy classes are simply much more prevalent than Braille-literacy ones. Most sighted teens can learn to drive from their parents, but most parents don't know how to teach basic cane technique, etc. And, because of the prevalence of low expectations and prejudice toward the blind, we are much more likely than the sighted to suffer from lack of opportunity-dealing with inaccessible technology, employment discrimination, and so on. So while all people's lives are dictated to a great extent by the availability of training and opportunity, the blind are disproportionately likely to suffer from a lack of one or both, which in turn constitutes a disadvantage. I submit, however, that most of this lack of training and opportunity comes from the fact that we are such a small minority, and not from inherent conditions of blindness. After all, if we were the majority, we could easily find qualified Braille and cane teachers and technology would be accessible to us as a rule. Arielle On 5/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Jedi, > (there are a lot of people I could reply to but I want to talk to > Jedi right now), > Fair enough-there are certainly other disabilities, both personal or > circumstancial, that are as limiting as blindness is without > training-what does that have to do with blindness making us unable to > perform on an equal level as the rest of the world without training > and opportunity? I mean, sure there are plenty of other limiting > factors in life, what does that have to do with blindness being or not > being a limiting factor? > Josh-helpless is bad. I think we all agree on that here. But I > still say we're not equal with the sighted world, in terms of > capability, without propper training. And, I'd submit, even with > propper training, blindness is stil a disability and, as such, will > always cause problems here and there although they would be more > inconveniences than drastic debilitating issues. > Just my thoughts, > Kirt > > On 5/7/11, Josh Gregory wrote: >> Hey, can you explain that? I find it interesting. Your thought, >> I mean. Feel free to write offlist if you want. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Freeman" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Date sent: Sat, 7 May 2011 20:19:57 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy >> College >> >> Or perhaps whatever god you believe in knows you can't write your >> insights >> down so, taking a page from the Devil, inspires all sorts of >> universally >> true and enlightening insights a la Firmat's Theorem that will >> vanish into >> thin air in the morning. (grin) >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Josh Gregory >> Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 8:09 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy >> College >> >> Um... maybe Cause your mind is more relaxed? You don't have to >> think about >> much so you can think more clearly? IDK. Just my late-night >> thoughts... >> Josh >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Sat, 7 May 2011 20:06:13 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy >> College >> >> Lol, yes. Why is it that everything comes to you when you are in >> bed? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jedi" > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 7:34 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy >> College >> >> >> Yeah, I'd say so. But I was thinking a while ago and realized >> that there >> are loads of cases where training is required in order to >> function, not >> just blindness. I can't remember what specific examples I >> thought of at >> the time, but I'm sure they'll hit me at some God-forsaken hour >> of the >> night. >> >> Respectfully, >> JEdi >> >> Original message: >> Jedi, >> Maybe it'll makemore sense if I say it this way. I wasn't >> refering >> to a person's intrinsic value. I should've said we can't >> compete on >> an equal level by default. I'm going to invert a statement >> you've >> heard a billion times. Without propper training and >> opportunity, >> blindness is a great deal more than a mere nuisence, and is, in >> fact, >> a very significant limitation. Would you agree? >> Best regards, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/7/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time >> back in >> 2004. >> I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was >> always >> playing >> outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the >> time and we >> were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. >> Actually, when >> they >> were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide >> dog, but >> Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog >> walking too >> fast >> :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is >> still >> working >> wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog >> they >> assigned >> me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the >> advantage of >> instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from >> for each >> person. >> >> IC >> On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: >> >> I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met >> him and >> was >> quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth >> kind of >> guy >> who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good >> kid. >> >> I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It >> makes >> so >> much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible >> Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Original message: >> What do you guys think of this? >> http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >> jedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >> Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam >> bra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >> ydude%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >> jedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >> Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin >> i%40wavecable.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >> 2%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >> 2%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From nabs.president at gmail.com Sun May 8 04:34:51 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 22:34:51 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <20110508024117.16613.86658@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Hi all, I personally don't have any objection to research on curing blindness as long as it isn't backed by the kind of depressing and insulting rhetoric that paints a tragic picture of the lives of blind people. If organizations like the FFB showcased real blind people who were happy and well-adjusted, but who were looking forward to the possibility of having sight as a way of increasing their avenues of access and opportunity, I would be behind that all the way. For example, Mike May was a blind man who I believe was one of the first corneal-transplant recipients who managed to gain a good deal of usable vision despite being blind since age three. I always liked how he talked about his rationale for gaining sight: he was happy as a blind person, had a good job and family life, but he thought that becoming sighted would be a fun adventure. I wish FFB would feature more people like him. But, obviously, that perspective doesn't pull on people's heartstrings and motivate them to give money as much as the tragic one does. Ah well. As for blindness "awareness" activities like the Dinners in the Dark: As I posted on this list a few months ago, I did a research project this year examining the effects of blindness simulations on people's attitudes toward the blind. In two experiments, we had people put on sleepshades for a short period of time (about 15 min in the first study, about 30 min in the second) and we had them do some menial tasks like walking around (they walked with a cane in the second study, but received no instruction on how to use it), pouring a glass of water, and sorting coins. Then we asked them to compare blind and sighted people on several dimensions. In both experiments, we got some stunning results. People who had been blindfolded rated the blind as less competent (compared with the sighted) than did people who had not been blindfolded. The blindfolded subjects also said they thought blind people were less capable of living on their own and doing certain manual jobs (again, as compared to the sighted) than the subjects who weren't blindfolded. I think these data support an intuition many of us have about these blindness simulation exercises. Yes, they build sympathy for the blind, but at the expense of making people think the blind are less capable, which is the last thing we need at this point. I'm hoping to show in a later study that giving blindfolded subjects a little bit of real blindness skills training undoes these negative effects. Arielle On 5/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Mark, > I remember a speech, either by dr. Jernigan or dr. Ten Broek (I > think it was Ten Broek), where he mentioned that the aspiration to > fight blindness was "no doubt a worthy goal", or something along those > lines. But, as we've seen on other discussions on-list, opinions of > individual Federationists would probably vary considerably. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/7/11, Jedi wrote: >> I can't speak for the NFB, but I'll tell you what I think. >> >> I think it's unfortunate that the FFB uses fear to raise funds for >> ophthalmological research. For example, they do these dining in the >> dark experiences where sighted people have to try to eat without >> seeing. You can imagine what a disaster that is, so they then equate >> their experience with that of blind people and give money because, oh, >> isn't it aweful to be blind? From what I gather, they don't talk at all >> to people about the things that the blind are doing to live >> productively. It's all based in this medical model that sees us as sick >> or broken. I certainly don't see myself as that way, and I imagine that >> many of you all don't, either. But from what I gather, the blind guys >> that do participate at the FFB do think of themselves as sick or >> broken. On the other hand, I've heard rumors that some NFB guys have >> recently gotten involved for one reason or another. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Original message: >> >> >>> What is the NFB's view of the work being dun by the Foundation Fighting >>> Blindness, and there philosophy? >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From nabs.president at gmail.com Sun May 8 04:43:42 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 22:43:42 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College In-Reply-To: References: <20110506172040.6660.44305@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Does anyone else get a guide dog at the age of 11? Just thought it was slightly strange.. Arielle On 5/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Jedi, > Maybe it'll makemore sense if I say it this way. I wasn't refering > to a person's intrinsic value. I should've said we can't compete on > an equal level by default. I'm going to invert a statement you've > heard a billion times. Without propper training and opportunity, > blindness is a great deal more than a mere nuisence, and is, in fact, > a very significant limitation. Would you agree? > Best regards, > Kirt > > On 5/7/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time back in >> 2004. >> I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was always >> playing >> outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the time and we >> were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. Actually, when they >> were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide dog, but >> Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog walking too fast >> :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is still working >> wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog they >> assigned >> me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the advantage of >> instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from for each >> person. >> >> IC >> On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: >> >>> I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him and was >>> quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind of guy >>> who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good kid. >>> >>> I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It makes so >>> much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible >>> Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> >>> Original message: >>>> What do you guys think of this? >>>> http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 8 05:25:01 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 01:25:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity Message-ID: <4dc6294a.454de50a.7493.ffff9f2e@mx.google.com> Um... they think we are less competent? Hmmm... Interesting... And you're right, we need them to see we can do things for ourselves, which we can. Look at the guy that climbed Mount Everest, wasn't the whole team blind? That's interesting, though. I wonder why they think that. Sent from my Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman wrote: Mark, I remember a speech, either by dr. Jernigan or dr. Ten Broek (I think it was Ten Broek), where he mentioned that the aspiration to fight blindness was "no doubt a worthy goal", or something along those lines. But, as we've seen on other discussions on-list, opinions of individual Federationists would probably vary considerably. Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/7/11, Jedi wrote: I can't speak for the NFB, but I'll tell you what I think. I think it's unfortunate that the FFB uses fear to raise funds for ophthalmological research. For example, they do these dining in the dark experiences where sighted people have to try to eat without seeing. You can imagine what a disaster that is, so they then equate their experience with that of blind people and give money because, oh, isn't it aweful to be blind? From what I gather, they don't talk at all to people about the things that the blind are doing to live productively. It's all based in this medical model that sees us as sick or broken. I certainly don't see myself as that way, and I imagine that many of you all don't, either. But from what I gather, the blind guys that do participate at the FFB do think of themselves as sick or broken. On the other hand, I've heard rumors that some NFB guys have recently gotten involved for one reason or another. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: What is the NFB's view of the work being dun by the Foundation Fighting Blindness, and there philosophy? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind jedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.pres ident%40gmail.com -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Sun May 8 06:26:19 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 23:26:19 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College References: <20110506172040.6660.44305@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: It's very rare. It means that he was very independent and responsible. Most guide dog schools have an age requirement because most people are not ready for a guide dog at a younger age. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 9:43 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College > Does anyone else get a guide dog at the age of 11? > Just thought it was slightly strange.. > Arielle > > On 5/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Jedi, >> Maybe it'll makemore sense if I say it this way. I wasn't refering >> to a person's intrinsic value. I should've said we can't compete on >> an equal level by default. I'm going to invert a statement you've >> heard a billion times. Without propper training and opportunity, >> blindness is a great deal more than a mere nuisence, and is, in fact, >> a very significant limitation. Would you agree? >> Best regards, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/7/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>> I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time back in >>> 2004. >>> I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was always >>> playing >>> outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the time and we >>> were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. Actually, when >>> they >>> were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide dog, but >>> Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog walking too >>> fast >>> :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is still >>> working >>> wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog they >>> assigned >>> me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the advantage of >>> instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from for each >>> person. >>> >>> IC >>> On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: >>> >>>> I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him and >>>> was >>>> quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind of >>>> guy >>>> who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good kid. >>>> >>>> I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It makes >>>> so >>>> much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible >>>> Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. >>>> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi >>>> >>>> Original message: >>>>> What do you guys think of this? >>>>> http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > Phone: 602-502-2255 > Email: > nabs.president at gmail.com > Website: > www.nabslink.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From davidschool97 at gmail.com Sun May 8 12:20:55 2011 From: davidschool97 at gmail.com (David Thomas) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 07:20:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College In-Reply-To: <20110508023455.16630.9590@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> References: <20110508023455.16630.9590@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: What does the FFB stand for? Sent from my iPhone On May 7, 2011, at 9:34 PM, Jedi wrote: > Yeah, I'd say so. But I was thinking a while ago and realized that there are loads of cases where training is required in order to function, not just blindness. I can't remember what specific examples I thought of at the time, but I'm sure they'll hit me at some God-forsaken hour of the night. > > Respectfully, > JEdi > > Original message: >> Jedi, >> Maybe it'll makemore sense if I say it this way. I wasn't refering >> to a person's intrinsic value. I should've said we can't compete on >> an equal level by default. I'm going to invert a statement you've >> heard a billion times. Without propper training and opportunity, >> blindness is a great deal more than a mere nuisence, and is, in fact, >> a very significant limitation. Would you agree? >> Best regards, >> Kirt > >> On 5/7/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>> I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time back in 2004. >>> I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was always playing >>> outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the time and we >>> were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. Actually, when they >>> were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide dog, but >>> Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog walking too fast >>> :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is still working >>> wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog they assigned >>> me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the advantage of >>> instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from for each >>> person. > >>> IC >>> On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: > >>>> I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him and was >>>> quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind of guy >>>> who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good kid. > >>>> I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It makes so >>>> much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible >>>> Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. > >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi > >>>> Original message: >>>>> What do you guys think of this? >>>>> http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidschool97%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sun May 8 14:30:32 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 10:30:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College In-Reply-To: References: <20110506172040.6660.44305@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: <52060E13-8F6F-407B-AB77-D41965A36F33@gmail.com> Arielle: That's very rare but I think I've heard of it before. On May 8, 2011, at 12:43 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Does anyone else get a guide dog at the age of 11? > Just thought it was slightly strange.. > Arielle > > On 5/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Jedi, >> Maybe it'll makemore sense if I say it this way. I wasn't refering >> to a person's intrinsic value. I should've said we can't compete on >> an equal level by default. I'm going to invert a statement you've >> heard a billion times. Without propper training and opportunity, >> blindness is a great deal more than a mere nuisence, and is, in fact, >> a very significant limitation. Would you agree? >> Best regards, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/7/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>> I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time back in >>> 2004. >>> I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was always >>> playing >>> outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the time and we >>> were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. Actually, when they >>> were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide dog, but >>> Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog walking too fast >>> :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is still working >>> wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog they >>> assigned >>> me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the advantage of >>> instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from for each >>> person. >>> >>> IC >>> On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: >>> >>>> I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him and was >>>> quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind of guy >>>> who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good kid. >>>> >>>> I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It makes so >>>> much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible >>>> Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. >>>> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi >>>> >>>> Original message: >>>>> What do you guys think of this? >>>>> http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > Phone: 602-502-2255 > Email: > nabs.president at gmail.com > Website: > www.nabslink.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun May 8 14:56:22 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 10:56:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College Message-ID: <4dc6af1a.4969e50a.3a62.ffffa542@mx.google.com> I know. When I sent it, I got a weird error message and then it was sent. That was weird! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note ----- Original Message ----- From: Message-ID: <0C64C1ED7DD444A79C5233FD6E311650@useripvq7z5u3t> Group, It's a little absurd to compare the NFB with the Foundation Fighting Blindness. The two have distinct missions and attract different memberships. The FFB focuses on the medical and scientific aspects of blindness. Take a look at their web site and the web site of their upcoming conference. http://www.blindness.org/ http://www.blindness.org/visions/ As for "Dining in the Dark", yes it is a fund raiser, but it is more than that. The wait staff is completely blind and the food is served in the dark. It is also an opportunity to educate the public. The wait staff instructs the diners on how to orient themselves to their place setting, locate, and identify their food and drink. To me this is educational and promotes the the vision that the blind are capable of living independent and productive lives. It is wrong to make blanket comments about other blindness organizations such as the FFB. The NFB, FFB, ACB, and dozens of other organizations whoo advocate for the blind are all striving to improve our lives. Whether you or I disagree with a specific policy or goal of a blindness organization is completely understandable. But by making a blanket statement about an entire organization makes the speaker sound uninformed and could alienate the listener. $0.02 worth from someone who is afiliated with both the NFB and FFB. Patrick From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun May 8 19:02:54 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 13:02:54 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity In-Reply-To: <0C64C1ED7DD444A79C5233FD6E311650@useripvq7z5u3t> References: <20110508024117.16613.86658@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <0C64C1ED7DD444A79C5233FD6E311650@useripvq7z5u3t> Message-ID: Patrick, Very, very well said-although I can understand why a lot of us don't like the way a lot of activities where people "pretend to be blind" are handled. Maybe the specific one you're talking about is better than the norm-I'll trust you on that. But, the vast majority of such exercises I've seen firsthand just, from my observations, increase the stereotypes a lot of people already have about blindness. They wonder how we can do common things and, since they are usually blindfolded without getting real propper training about how we do them, they leave with the impression that (a) being blind must be really hard and (b) those of us who manage to live independently must be extremely gifted because, of course, most people couldn't do it. We know better, but that doesn't mean everyone does. I'm not saying the idea of blindfolding sighted people is inherently wrong-I've also seen how it is a benefit if it's handled the right way. But usually it isn't. Just my thoughts. I do agree with the main message of your last post. Too many people look at other groups and condemn them as a whole when, in reality, they are mostly doing the best they can, as they see it. I have friends in the Council- I have friends in the Federation, the individual people really aren't that different although policies vary. Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/8/11, Patrick Johnson wrote: > Group, > > It's a little absurd to compare the NFB with the Foundation Fighting > Blindness. The two have distinct missions and attract different > memberships. The FFB focuses on the medical and scientific aspects of > blindness. Take a look at their web site and the web site of their upcoming > conference. > > http://www.blindness.org/ > http://www.blindness.org/visions/ > > As for "Dining in the Dark", yes it is a fund raiser, but it is more > than that. The wait staff is completely blind and the food is served in the > dark. It is also an opportunity to educate the public. The wait staff > instructs the diners on how to orient themselves to their place setting, > locate, and identify their food and drink. > > To me this is educational and promotes the the vision that the blind are > capable of living independent and productive lives. > > It is wrong to make blanket comments about other blindness organizations > such as the FFB. The NFB, FFB, ACB, and dozens of other organizations whoo > advocate for the blind are all striving to improve our lives. Whether you > or I disagree with a specific policy or goal of a blindness organization is > completely understandable. But by making a blanket statement about an > entire organization makes the speaker sound uninformed and could alienate > the listener. > > $0.02 worth from someone who is afiliated with both the NFB and FFB. > > Patrick > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From nabs.president at gmail.com Sun May 8 19:13:25 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 13:13:25 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity In-Reply-To: References: <20110508024117.16613.86658@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <0C64C1ED7DD444A79C5233FD6E311650@useripvq7z5u3t> Message-ID: Yes-it's all in the way the blindfold activities are handled. For example, it seems like in almost all blindness simulations participants aren't given canes. This may seem obvious, but without a cane or other mobility aid, it is very difficult to get around safely in a crowded, unfamiliar space-in fact, I'd say most if not all of us who are totally blind would never walk around independently in an unfamiliar place without a cane! So of course the blindfolded folks will have trouble getting around, and conclude that's how it is to be blind. Arielle On 5/8/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Patrick, > Very, very well said-although I can understand why a lot of us don't > like the way a lot of activities where people "pretend to be blind" > are handled. Maybe the specific one you're talking about is better > than the norm-I'll trust you on that. But, the vast majority of such > exercises I've seen firsthand just, from my observations, increase the > stereotypes a lot of people already have about blindness. They wonder > how we can do common things and, since they are usually blindfolded > without getting real propper training about how we do them, they leave > with the impression that (a) being blind must be really hard and (b) > those of us who manage to live independently must be extremely gifted > because, of course, most people couldn't do it. We know better, but > that doesn't mean everyone does. I'm not saying the idea of > blindfolding sighted people is inherently wrong-I've also seen how it > is a benefit if it's handled the right way. But usually it isn't. > Just my thoughts. I do agree with the main message of your last > post. Too many people look at other groups and condemn them as a > whole when, in reality, they are mostly doing the best they can, as > they see it. I have friends in the Council- I have friends in the > Federation, the individual people really aren't that different > although policies vary. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/8/11, Patrick Johnson wrote: >> Group, >> >> It's a little absurd to compare the NFB with the Foundation Fighting >> Blindness. The two have distinct missions and attract different >> memberships. The FFB focuses on the medical and scientific aspects of >> blindness. Take a look at their web site and the web site of their >> upcoming >> conference. >> >> http://www.blindness.org/ >> http://www.blindness.org/visions/ >> >> As for "Dining in the Dark", yes it is a fund raiser, but it is more >> than that. The wait staff is completely blind and the food is served in >> the >> dark. It is also an opportunity to educate the public. The wait staff >> instructs the diners on how to orient themselves to their place setting, >> locate, and identify their food and drink. >> >> To me this is educational and promotes the the vision that the blind >> are >> capable of living independent and productive lives. >> >> It is wrong to make blanket comments about other blindness >> organizations >> such as the FFB. The NFB, FFB, ACB, and dozens of other organizations >> whoo >> advocate for the blind are all striving to improve our lives. Whether you >> or I disagree with a specific policy or goal of a blindness organization >> is >> completely understandable. But by making a blanket statement about an >> entire organization makes the speaker sound uninformed and could alienate >> the listener. >> >> $0.02 worth from someone who is afiliated with both the NFB and FFB. >> >> Patrick >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 8 19:27:21 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 15:27:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity Message-ID: <4dc6eeb8.1192e60a.757c.45ed@mx.google.com> My school does or did something like that, they'll give all the teachers blindfolds, and I think canes, and have them walk to school like us students do. From what I have heard, they come away saying how different the experience was and (from a travel perspective anyway) how much more difficult it is to be blind than sighted. Josh sent from my Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman wrote: Patrick, Very, very well said-although I can understand why a lot of us don't like the way a lot of activities where people "pretend to be blind" are handled. Maybe the specific one you're talking about is better than the norm-I'll trust you on that. But, the vast majority of such exercises I've seen firsthand just, from my observations, increase the stereotypes a lot of people already have about blindness. They wonder how we can do common things and, since they are usually blindfolded without getting real propper training about how we do them, they leave with the impression that (a) being blind must be really hard and (b) those of us who manage to live independently must be extremely gifted because, of course, most people couldn't do it. We know better, but that doesn't mean everyone does. I'm not saying the idea of blindfolding sighted people is inherently wrong-I've also seen how it is a benefit if it's handled the right way. But usually it isn't. Just my thoughts. I do agree with the main message of your last post. Too many people look at other groups and condemn them as a whole when, in reality, they are mostly doing the best they can, as they see it. I have friends in the Council- I have friends in the Federation, the individual people really aren't that different although policies vary. Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/8/11, Patrick Johnson wrote: Group, It's a little absurd to compare the NFB with the Foundation Fighting Blindness. The two have distinct missions and attract different memberships. The FFB focuses on the medical and scientific aspects of blindness. Take a look at their web site and the web site of their upcoming conference. http://www.blindness.org/ http://www.blindness.org/visions/ As for "Dining in the Dark", yes it is a fund raiser, but it is more than that. The wait staff is completely blind and the food is served in the dark. It is also an opportunity to educate the public. The wait staff instructs the diners on how to orient themselves to their place setting, locate, and identify their food and drink. To me this is educational and promotes the the vision that the blind are capable of living independent and productive lives. It is wrong to make blanket comments about other blindness organizations such as the FFB. The NFB, FFB, ACB, and dozens of other organizations whoo advocate for the blind are all striving to improve our lives. Whether you or I disagree with a specific policy or goal of a blindness organization is completely understandable. But by making a blanket statement about an entire organization makes the speaker sound uninformed and could alienate the listener. $0.02 worth from someone who is afiliated with both the NFB and FFB. Patrick _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.pres ident%40gmail.com -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From amylsabo at comcast.net Sun May 8 20:02:10 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 20:02:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] Placement Exams In-Reply-To: <4DB36EDD.6020204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1662398959.11334.1304884930964.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> hello all, when i took my math placement exam at my community college in michigan i took the math part with a reader/scribe in the math lab department and, just recently i took the math part with a reader/scribe with the dss and, i also had double time for it as well. i hope this was helpful for you all! hugs, amy ----- Original Message ----- From: Jordyn Castor To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Sent: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 00:29:17 -0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] Placement Exams Hey NABS, I was accepted into a college and am required to take a math placement exam. If I register with the DSS office before I take the exam, can I request extra time or something? Will colleges make accommodations on those types of exams? If I'm not allotted extra time, any tips on taking this math exam not about the math itself but about like using the system? Thanks! Jordyn _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net From ignasicambra at gmail.com Sun May 8 20:05:00 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 16:05:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide dogs at an early age Message-ID: Someone asked in an other thread how Matt Cooper was given a guide dog at age 11. I got my dog at the same time as him from the Mira foundation in Quebec. Their website is www.mira.ca. They select a small group of children every summer and give them guide dogs. One needs to pass a few tests and be able to travel independently with a cane in order to get into the program. I still have the dog they gave me in 2004 and would never think of geting my next one from anywhere else. My experience with them was just fantastic. Sent from my iPhone From amylsabo at comcast.net Sun May 8 20:55:40 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 20:55:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] Feedback Wanted From Students In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <500555123.12477.1304888140341.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> hello david, thanks for sharing this cool thing that you can get to your phhone for show archieves besides the other methods through this list and also through twitter too! i cannot wait to see this and also use it too! thanks for sharing and, i will talk to you soon! hugs always, from amy ----- Original Message ----- From: David Dunphy To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 03:26:15 -0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] Feedback Wanted From Students Hi All! As you may or may not know, I am the one who is responsible for putting up the recordings of the conference calls for download, which you can expect some this week that I'm a little behind on due to pc issues. Once I get confirmation from the membership committee, I hope to be able to give you all some incredible news. But I am looking for some feedback: I know you can go to the site, see emails here, and view twitter to find out when shows are available. Is there any interest in receiving conference call notifications via text message to your cell phone too? The script that powers the archival of calls has just had some cool updates made to it, one of them being the ability to have archive notifications sent to someone by cell phone text. So all you have to do is click on the link using your phone. In addition, the script can email people individually about notifications, so if you know anyone who is not on this list but would like to know when calls can be downloaded, that can be arranged too. If you are interested in having messages sent to your phone when archives become available (normal texting rates apply) please email me at djdrocks4ever at gmail.com with your name, cell number, and carrier. I will not share this with anyone nor will I call you unless we are friends already or unless you ask me to do so. But this info is necessary for the script to deliver these notifications to you. You can also reply here or email me off list with questions. Thanks. >From David _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun May 8 20:57:56 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 16:57:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College Message-ID: <20110508205756.25386.31813@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> I tend to think a lot in the shower, too. Same with doing dishes. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Or in the shower? Some of my best philosophical writing got its start in the > shower. > Mike > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 8:06 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College > Lol, yes. Why is it that everything comes to you when you are in bed? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jedi" > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 7:34 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College >> Yeah, I'd say so. But I was thinking a while ago and realized that there >> are loads of cases where training is required in order to function, not >> just blindness. I can't remember what specific examples I thought of at >> the time, but I'm sure they'll hit me at some God-forsaken hour of the >> night. >> Respectfully, >> JEdi >> Original message: >>> Jedi, >>> Maybe it'll makemore sense if I say it this way. I wasn't refering >>> to a person's intrinsic value. I should've said we can't compete on >>> an equal level by default. I'm going to invert a statement you've >>> heard a billion times. Without propper training and opportunity, >>> blindness is a great deal more than a mere nuisence, and is, in fact, >>> a very significant limitation. Would you agree? >>> Best regards, >>> Kirt >>> On 5/7/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>> I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time back in >>>> 2004. >>>> I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was always >>>> playing >>>> outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the time and we >>>> were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. Actually, when >>>> they >>>> were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide dog, but >>>> Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog walking too >>>> fast >>>> :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is still >>>> working >>>> wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog they >>>> assigned >>>> me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the advantage of >>>> instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from for each >>>> person. >>>> IC >>>> On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: >>>>> I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him and >>>>> was >>>>> quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind of >>>>> guy >>>>> who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good kid. >>>>> I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It makes >>>>> so >>>>> much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible >>>>> Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. >>>>> Respectfully, >>>>> Jedi >>>>> Original message: >>>>>> What do you guys think of this? >>>>>> http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo > bile.net >>>>> -- >>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail > .com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma > il.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo > bile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecab > le.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun May 8 21:04:57 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 17:04:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College Message-ID: <20110508210457.25404.8223@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> Kirt, I think that if we decide to conclude that we will never be truly equal even with training based on the setbacks we experience, we've basically doomed ourselves to a kind of learned helplessness. Instead, I'd rather focus my energy on the intrensic value of blind people in society and our intrensic equality with the sighted because that's the philosophy that propels me to find solutions to the setbacks we do face and to gather the necessary cooperation from both the blind and the sighted to make them work. I think that's what Jacobus tenbroek did when he got the NFB started. Seems how it worked for him and the loads of leaders that have come after, I think I'll repeat this successful action. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Jedi, > (there are a lot of people I could reply to but I want to talk to > Jedi right now), > Fair enough-there are certainly other disabilities, both personal or > circumstancial, that are as limiting as blindness is without > training-what does that have to do with blindness making us unable to > perform on an equal level as the rest of the world without training > and opportunity? I mean, sure there are plenty of other limiting > factors in life, what does that have to do with blindness being or not > being a limiting factor? > Josh-helpless is bad. I think we all agree on that here. But I > still say we're not equal with the sighted world, in terms of > capability, without propper training. And, I'd submit, even with > propper training, blindness is stil a disability and, as such, will > always cause problems here and there although they would be more > inconveniences than drastic debilitating issues. > Just my thoughts, > Kirt > On 5/7/11, Josh Gregory wrote: >> Hey, can you explain that? I find it interesting. Your thought, >> I mean. Feel free to write offlist if you want. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Freeman" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Date sent: Sat, 7 May 2011 20:19:57 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy >> College >> Or perhaps whatever god you believe in knows you can't write your >> insights >> down so, taking a page from the Devil, inspires all sorts of >> universally >> true and enlightening insights a la Firmat's Theorem that will >> vanish into >> thin air in the morning. (grin) >> Mike >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Josh Gregory >> Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 8:09 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy >> College >> Um... maybe Cause your mind is more relaxed? You don't have to >> think about >> much so you can think more clearly? IDK. Just my late-night >> thoughts... >> Josh >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Sat, 7 May 2011 20:06:13 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy >> College >> Lol, yes. Why is it that everything comes to you when you are in >> bed? >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jedi" > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 7:34 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy >> College >> Yeah, I'd say so. But I was thinking a while ago and realized >> that there >> are loads of cases where training is required in order to >> function, not >> just blindness. I can't remember what specific examples I >> thought of at >> the time, but I'm sure they'll hit me at some God-forsaken hour >> of the >> night. >> Respectfully, >> JEdi >> Original message: >> Jedi, >> Maybe it'll makemore sense if I say it this way. I wasn't >> refering >> to a person's intrinsic value. I should've said we can't >> compete on >> an equal level by default. I'm going to invert a statement >> you've >> heard a billion times. Without propper training and >> opportunity, >> blindness is a great deal more than a mere nuisence, and is, in >> fact, >> a very significant limitation. Would you agree? >> Best regards, >> Kirt >> On 5/7/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time >> back in >> 2004. >> I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was >> always >> playing >> outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the >> time and we >> were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. >> Actually, when >> they >> were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide >> dog, but >> Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog >> walking too >> fast >> :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is >> still >> working >> wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog >> they >> assigned >> me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the >> advantage of >> instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from >> for each >> person. >> IC >> On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: >> I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met >> him and >> was >> quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth >> kind of >> guy >> who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good >> kid. >> I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It >> makes >> so >> much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible >> Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> Original message: >> What do you guys think of this? >> http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >> jedi%40samobile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >> Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam >> bra%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >> ydude%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >> jedi%40samobile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >> Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin >> i%40wavecable.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >> 2%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >> 2%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun May 8 21:13:37 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 17:13:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity Message-ID: <20110508211337.28092.56259@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Patrick, You really ought to read the press releases that come out from FFB regarding these dinners. Most people who attended don't talk about how educational it was in the sense that you do. They talk about how hard it was and how incompetent they felt. I don't think there are any blanket statements there at all; I'm just talking about what I've read. If you're a member of the FFB and the NFB, maybe it's a good idea for you to talk with the FFB about the negative impact they're inadvertently creating for the blindness community and help them find a way to meet their goals without damning us in the process. respectfully Submitted Original message: > Group, > It's a little absurd to compare the NFB with the Foundation Fighting > Blindness. The two have distinct missions and attract different > memberships. The FFB focuses on the medical and scientific aspects of > blindness. Take a look at their web site and the web site of their upcoming > conference. > http://www.blindness.org/ > http://www.blindness.org/visions/ > As for "Dining in the Dark", yes it is a fund raiser, but it is more > than that. The wait staff is completely blind and the food is served in the > dark. It is also an opportunity to educate the public. The wait staff > instructs the diners on how to orient themselves to their place setting, > locate, and identify their food and drink. > To me this is educational and promotes the the vision that the blind are > capable of living independent and productive lives. > It is wrong to make blanket comments about other blindness organizations > such as the FFB. The NFB, FFB, ACB, and dozens of other organizations whoo > advocate for the blind are all striving to improve our lives. Whether you > or I disagree with a specific policy or goal of a blindness organization is > completely understandable. But by making a blanket statement about an > entire organization makes the speaker sound uninformed and could alienate > the listener. > $0.02 worth from someone who is afiliated with both the NFB and FFB. > Patrick > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From k7uij at panix.com Sun May 8 21:16:53 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 14:16:53 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity In-Reply-To: <0C64C1ED7DD444A79C5233FD6E311650@useripvq7z5u3t> References: <20110508024117.16613.86658@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <0C64C1ED7DD444A79C5233FD6E311650@useripvq7z5u3t> Message-ID: <003401cc0dc5$41351ce0$c39f56a0$@panix.com> Patrick: If what we know about another organization causes us to believe that they are somewhere between misguided and absolutely wrong, why not be proud of our knowledge? Yes, we should be prepared for the possibility that we might be mistaken. But we might not be also. And I dare say that FFB would have little good to say about us, their whole focus being upon *fighting* blindness. Ours is upon *living* with it. AS for the dining in the dark nonsense, even if the wait staff is blind, the sighted will *still* come out thinking that it's damned difficult eating when one is blind and that the wait staff are living miracles -- so good, in fact, that the participants almost forget they're blind. (har) Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Johnson Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 11:09 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity Group, It's a little absurd to compare the NFB with the Foundation Fighting Blindness. The two have distinct missions and attract different memberships. The FFB focuses on the medical and scientific aspects of blindness. Take a look at their web site and the web site of their upcoming conference. http://www.blindness.org/ http://www.blindness.org/visions/ As for "Dining in the Dark", yes it is a fund raiser, but it is more than that. The wait staff is completely blind and the food is served in the dark. It is also an opportunity to educate the public. The wait staff instructs the diners on how to orient themselves to their place setting, locate, and identify their food and drink. To me this is educational and promotes the the vision that the blind are capable of living independent and productive lives. It is wrong to make blanket comments about other blindness organizations such as the FFB. The NFB, FFB, ACB, and dozens of other organizations whoo advocate for the blind are all striving to improve our lives. Whether you or I disagree with a specific policy or goal of a blindness organization is completely understandable. But by making a blanket statement about an entire organization makes the speaker sound uninformed and could alienate the listener. $0.02 worth from someone who is afiliated with both the NFB and FFB. Patrick _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun May 8 21:19:02 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 15:19:02 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity In-Reply-To: <4dc6eeb8.1192e60a.757c.45ed@mx.google.com> References: <4dc6eeb8.1192e60a.757c.45ed@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Josh, Thank you for proving my point-it's always nice when people back you up. :) Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/8/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > My school does or did something like that, they'll give all the > teachers blindfolds, and I think canes, and have them walk to > school like us students do. From what I have heard, they come > away saying how different the experience was and (from a travel > perspective anyway) how much more difficult it is to be blind > than sighted. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Arielle Silverman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 8 May 2011 13:13:25 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity > > Yes-it's all in the way the blindfold activities are handled. > For > example, it seems like in almost all blindness simulations > participants aren't given canes. This may seem obvious, but > without a > cane or other mobility aid, it is very difficult to get around > safely > in a crowded, unfamiliar space-in fact, I'd say most if not all > of us > who are totally blind would never walk around independently in an > unfamiliar place without a cane! So of course the blindfolded > folks > will have trouble getting around, and conclude that's how it is > to be > blind. > Arielle > > On 5/8/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Patrick, > Very, very well said-although I can understand why a lot of us > don't > like the way a lot of activities where people "pretend to be > blind" > are handled. Maybe the specific one you're talking about is > better > than the norm-I'll trust you on that. But, the vast majority of > such > exercises I've seen firsthand just, from my observations, > increase the > stereotypes a lot of people already have about blindness. They > wonder > how we can do common things and, since they are usually > blindfolded > without getting real propper training about how we do them, they > leave > with the impression that (a) being blind must be really hard and > (b) > those of us who manage to live independently must be extremely > gifted > because, of course, most people couldn't do it. We know better, > but > that doesn't mean everyone does. I'm not saying the idea of > blindfolding sighted people is inherently wrong-I've also seen > how it > is a benefit if it's handled the right way. But usually it > isn't. > Just my thoughts. I do agree with the main message of your > last > post. Too many people look at other groups and condemn them as > a > whole when, in reality, they are mostly doing the best they can, > as > they see it. I have friends in the Council- I have friends in > the > Federation, the individual people really aren't that different > although policies vary. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/8/11, Patrick Johnson wrote: > Group, > > It's a little absurd to compare the NFB with the Foundation > Fighting > Blindness. The two have distinct missions and attract different > memberships. The FFB focuses on the medical and scientific > aspects of > blindness. Take a look at their web site and the web site of > their > upcoming > conference. > > http://www.blindness.org/ > http://www.blindness.org/visions/ > > As for "Dining in the Dark", yes it is a fund raiser, but it > is more > than that. The wait staff is completely blind and the food is > served in > the > dark. It is also an opportunity to educate the public. The > wait staff > instructs the diners on how to orient themselves to their place > setting, > locate, and identify their food and drink. > > To me this is educational and promotes the the vision that > the blind > are > capable of living independent and productive lives. > > It is wrong to make blanket comments about other blindness > organizations > such as the FFB. The NFB, FFB, ACB, and dozens of other > organizations > whoo > advocate for the blind are all striving to improve our lives. > Whether you > or I disagree with a specific policy or goal of a blindness > organization > is > completely understandable. But by making a blanket statement > about an > entire organization makes the speaker sound uninformed and > could alienate > the listener. > > $0.02 worth from someone who is afiliated with both the NFB and > FFB. > > Patrick > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.pres > ident%40gmail.com > > > > -- > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > Phone: 602-502-2255 > Email: > nabs.president at gmail.com > Website: > www.nabslink.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 8 21:13:06 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 17:13:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College Message-ID: <4dc70781.52a3e60a.32ad.4579@mx.google.com> Hi, I think we * can * be equal with the proper training as others have said. And, even though I am in a wheelchair, I will strive to be as independent as I can possibly be. I may not always like it, but that's life. Josh sent from my Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Jedi wrote: Hey, can you explain that? I find it interesting. Your thought, I mean. Feel free to write offlist if you want. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" wrote: I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time back in 2004. I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was always playing outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the time and we were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. Actually, when they were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide dog, but Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog walking too fast :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is still working wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog they assigned me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the advantage of instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from for each person. IC On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him and was quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind of guy who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good kid. I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It makes so much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: What do you guys think of this? http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind jedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam bra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind jedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind jedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun May 8 21:22:10 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 15:22:10 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs Message-ID: Dear list, I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? Warmest regards, Kirt From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Sun May 8 21:40:28 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 14:40:28 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs References: Message-ID: <7A58AFAFBCE34E3DAF80748E1C4AEB89@stanford.edu> If you get a guide dog and then go to a training center, you should wait for at least a month if not two or three before going to the training center. The first few months with your dog are a crucial bonding time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 2:22 PM Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > Dear list, > I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to > try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably > go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it > ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know > that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a > cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I > get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any > problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a > guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From amylsabo at comcast.net Sun May 8 21:48:34 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 21:48:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <317475869.13423.1304891314579.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> hello kurt, i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring your guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions to this topic. take care and good luck in coming to ccb. hugs, amy ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs Dear list, I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? Warmest regards, Kirt _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net From amylsabo at comcast.net Sun May 8 21:57:43 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 21:57:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] what is Federationism In-Reply-To: <4dc06641.0b5d340a.4245.0825@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <323404644.13584.1304891863987.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> hello chris and all, this is a interesting topic and one that we all need to know why we joined the federation and what it means to be a federationist. it's meant to me that we can do anything like sighted can do with usingg alternative techniques and that we can live on equal terms with the sighted public. it's just a physical nuisance. it's also a part of me and who i'am. i didn't think this before until i found the ferdeation until 1995 but, in living in this world and living with the philosophy as who i'am and, who is what fedeerationis,mmeans to me. thanks for sharing and, i will talk to you all soon. hugs, from amy ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Nusbaum To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org Cc: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Sent: Tue, 03 May 2011 20:31:35 -0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] what is Federationism Hi, all. Here's an interesting, maybe somewhat philosophical question for all of you. Sorry for those of you who don't like these topics, you don't have to reply. I've always been an NFB member (since I was very little) but I was never really active in it. Oh sure, I followed some of the issues and had some oppinions, but I never really was that active in the NFB itself. Now, after I went to the NFB's Leadership and Advocacy program, I seem to have a new sense of support for the Federation and as I'm learning more, I want to be more active in it. I really am starting to understand and strongly believe in the NFB philosophy, or at least how I interpret it. So I want to ask you a threefold question: what does Federationism mean to you, what do you think the NFB philosophy is, and why are you a Federationist? I'm not going to tell you my opinion just yet, mainly because I don't really have a strong one. That's why I want to hear from you, think about your opinions, and finally decide what I believe. I look forward to hearing all of your thoughts! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun May 8 22:05:26 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 16:05:26 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: <317475869.13423.1304891314579.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <317475869.13423.1304891314579.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Amy, Nicole and all, If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: > hello kurt, > > i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring your > guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your > activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, > hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions to > this topic. > > take care and good luck in coming to ccb. > > > hugs, > amy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) > Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > > Dear list, > I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to > try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably > go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it > ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know > that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a > cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I > get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any > problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a > guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Sun May 8 22:11:07 2011 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 18:11:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs References: <317475869.13423.1304891314579.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <75ADE2B698D447599DF3C90476F9464D@hometwxakonvzn> Don't get a dog. Before you get a dog, your cane skills should be perfect. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > Amy, Nicole and all, > If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple > months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new > friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time > which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, > however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a > center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you > travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I > mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over > the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there > be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for > the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you > know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone > care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you > guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that > would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make > sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >> hello kurt, >> >> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >> your >> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >> to >> this topic. >> >> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >> >> >> hugs, >> amy >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kirt Manwaring >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >> Dear list, >> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From amylsabo at comcast.net Sun May 8 22:12:56 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 22:12:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS In-Reply-To: <20F30263B78D44D98DE4F17EDD02B660@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <495368532.13864.1304892776685.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> hello ashely and all, as to the topic on accessible signal aps i don;t use them that much but, there are times when i use them for my safety. i use it the most when they are at a busy area like nnear downtown denver where thetre are alot of traffic. but, for the rest of the time i don't use them. i think that they are helpful in someways but, not on other times when we don't need them. this is just my thoughts on this topic. thanks again and, i will talk to you all soon. hugs, amy ----- Original Message ----- From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Sent: Mon, 02 May 2011 22:36:42 -0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS Hi all, I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they are taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency topics and really trashing the NFB and they don’t know the real positions and facts. They think NFB opposes both. I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions? Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do you think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? Personally, I’d like the APS at intersections where you have to press the walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk signal to know when our time starts; you have to press the button in order to tell the computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk phase to cross the street. I think these are called actuated signals. These streets favor drivers, not pedestrians; the busier streets get more traffic time. That change of the signal is activated by a computer. At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, without a button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues to hear to cross. I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some signals even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk interval. So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient traffic cues to cross the street. I’ve tried to learn how to cross T streets, and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help there too. No parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on APS, so I’m not sure what it is now. I certainly don’t want them everywhere, but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see their use. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun May 8 22:18:16 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 18:18:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindtlk] Zoo Policies on Service Animals Message-ID: <4dc716b0.97abe60a.43f8.4650@mx.google.com> For all guide dog users... I thought you might be interested in this. This comes from a post to the Blind Talk list serve from Marion Gwizdala, president of the National Association of Guide Dog Users (NAGDU.) Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note ---- Original Message ------ From: "Marion Gwizdala" -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment Type: application/octet-stream Size: 322 bytes Desc: not available URL: From serena.c.cucco at gmail.com Sun May 8 22:22:53 2011 From: serena.c.cucco at gmail.com (Serena Cucco) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 18:22:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] gmail and Outlook 2003 problem Message-ID: <6AE5F434EC07485A937DEA335C60E642@SerenaPC> Hey Nabsters, I know this is more of a technology question than a blindness question, but seeing many of you use gmail, maybe you might have some ideas. I just started using Gmail with Microsoft Outlook 2003. (It's often difficult for me to go online and use web-based email with Jaws, so I use Outlook, instead.) Every time I open Outlook, the following error message is displayed: "Internet security warning dialogue: The server you are connected to is using a security certificate that cannot be verified. The CN name does not match the past value. Do you want to continue using this server?" I say yes and everything is fine, but it's quite annoying to keep getting the error message. What can be done to fix this? Thanks, Serena From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun May 8 22:29:19 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 18:29:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] zoo policies for service dogs survey attachment Message-ID: <4dc71948.81a5e60a.4d37.4696@mx.google.com> Hi, all. A couple minutes ago, I forwarded you the email about zoo policies for service dogs. This email contained an attachment about the policies in a Microsoft Word file. I've attached the file in a plain text, BRF (plain Braille file,) and RTF (rich text format file) for those of you who can't open Word files on your computer or prefer reading files in a plain text, BRF, or RTF format. Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: zoos Service animal Policies.txt Type: application/octet-stream Size: 13059 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: zoos Service animal Policies.brf Type: application/octet-stream Size: 10820 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: zoos Service animal Policies.rtf Type: application/octet-stream Size: 16395 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kramc11 at gmail.com Sun May 8 22:31:35 2011 From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 18:31:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs References: <317475869.13423.1304891314579.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <2AA656C163564C5C9812E8CBC57C9DBE@cadiganpc> Why can't you go to the training center, then get the dog. Why do you have to get the dog first? From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sun May 8 22:33:19 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 15:33:19 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: <75ADE2B698D447599DF3C90476F9464D@hometwxakonvzn> References: <317475869.13423.1304891314579.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <75ADE2B698D447599DF3C90476F9464D@hometwxakonvzn> Message-ID: Kirt and all, My suggesting would be to consider getting a dog post-training. I wouldn't say that your skills need to be perfect, because I highly doubt anyone's skills are "perfect". I would probably suggest that you have the best possible cane travel skill-set you can, in order to be sure that you are giving you and your dog guide the best chance of success. In general, you are going to be asked to use your cane during center hours and official center activities, but you can use whatever you would like to use outside of those times Regards, Darian On 5/8/11, RJ Sandefur wrote: > Don't get a dog. Before you get a dog, your cane skills should be perfect. > RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirt Manwaring" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > > >> Amy, Nicole and all, >> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>> hello kurt, >>> >>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>> your >>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>> to >>> this topic. >>> >>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >>> >>> >>> hugs, >>> amy >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> >>> Dear list, >>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sun May 8 22:36:51 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 18:36:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: <2AA656C163564C5C9812E8CBC57C9DBE@cadiganpc> References: <317475869.13423.1304891314579.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <2AA656C163564C5C9812E8CBC57C9DBE@cadiganpc> Message-ID: <09E77F38-D65D-4DDB-B07E-718A6235651F@gmail.com> Valid point. On May 8, 2011, at 6:31 PM, Mark J. Cadigan wrote: > Why can't you go to the training center, then get the dog. Why do you have to get the dog first? > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sun May 8 22:37:33 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 18:37:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] zoo policies for service dogs survey attachment In-Reply-To: <4dc71948.81a5e60a.4d37.4696@mx.google.com> References: <4dc71948.81a5e60a.4d37.4696@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <625775C8-5444-4B43-95CE-1BB33F1C9992@gmail.com> Nice gesture Chris. On May 8, 2011, at 6:29 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi, all. > > A couple minutes ago, I forwarded you the email about zoo policies for service dogs. This email contained an attachment about the policies in a Microsoft Word file. I've attached the file in a plain text, BRF (plain Braille file,) and RTF (rich text format file) for those of you who can't open Word files on your computer or prefer reading files in a plain text, BRF, or RTF format. > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my Braille-Note > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 8 22:38:22 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 18:38:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity Message-ID: <4dc71b7d.1192e60a.757c.4791@mx.google.com> This is on behalf of a lister who accidentally sent this just to me and not the list. Josh sent from my Apex ---- Original Message ------ From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: Kirt, Sure. Not a problem. BTW, do you use Facebook or google talk? Josh sent from my Apex From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sun May 8 22:43:18 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 15:43:18 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: <09E77F38-D65D-4DDB-B07E-718A6235651F@gmail.com> References: <317475869.13423.1304891314579.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <2AA656C163564C5C9812E8CBC57C9DBE@cadiganpc> <09E77F38-D65D-4DDB-B07E-718A6235651F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Gentleman, I'm sure that for each person, they have their reasons for what they may or may not do. What we can do is give constructive and thoughtful suggestions. Darian On 5/8/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > Valid point. > > > On May 8, 2011, at 6:31 PM, Mark J. Cadigan wrote: > >> Why can't you go to the training center, then get the dog. Why do you have >> to get the dog first? >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From amylsabo at comcast.net Sun May 8 22:50:37 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 22:50:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2005568966.14651.1304895037036.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> hello ashley and all, when i did study guides for my classes i would scan the study guide into kurtzwell and then copy and paste it into msword to do them. i would use my notes by copying and then pasting them into the studdy guide. as for looking for the material from the book i would use my cctvv to look them up in the index or the gllossary or if i couldn't use my cctv i would use a reader for it. i hope this is helpful for you. take care and, i will talk to you soon. hugs, amy ----- Original Message ----- From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Sent: Mon, 02 May 2011 04:31:32 -0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material Hi all, College texts are full of words and examples. Frustrating when you cannot skim through especially when you need the highlights for a test. I take notes when reading. But my notes don’t always amount to what the professor tells us to study for the test, if they tell us. So what do you do when the professor has a study guide? Some students take it and jot down the coresponding pages to the study topics and study those pages. How do you use it? Sometimes professors give a list of terms/concepts to study or a list of questions to guide your preparation. My communication professor outlined on the board what concepts we needed to know for our final. But here’s the thing. I cannot skim the text or look up words. My notes may or may not have them. Even if they do, its still looking for a needle in a haystack when reviewing for finals! So I’ve usually had to ask a reader; they act as my eyes and look in the index for the key words or skim for the key words or headings in the chapter. For me, I usually use audio whenever possible. But even with e-texts, I cannot skim because I don’t know the exact phrase and without that the computer does Not know what to look for; also it is divided in to chapters and I cannot search across chapters. Another thing, how do you work with open book exams? Do you have a reader there and they look up any info from the book? That is what I’ve done. Again, openbook tests let you use it as a reference tool, but that is hard for us. So any tips for studying or “skimming” would be good. How can you direct a reader to actually skim? Usually they will read too much to me rather than just the main paragraph of the topic; generally under the main headings I find the introduction to the concept and smaller headings tell you details/examples. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun May 8 23:04:51 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 19:04:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs Message-ID: <20110508230451.16633.74923@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Kirt, You can bring a guide dog to a training center. We have two students here at the LCB who have guide dogs. But coming from an O and M perspective, I highly recommend you get your blindness training in order first before getting a dog. The dog will only be as helpful to you as your travel skills are. So if you've not got the kind of travel skills you want, the dog probably won't be as helpful to you. I've heard both LCB guide dog users say that training has helped them use their dogs better, but both of them also recommended O and M cane training first in order to get those foundational concepts down, and I'm not just talking about the fundamentals of cane skills. More important, i'm talking about problem-solving; most of your training at CCB will consist of problem-solving training, so it's a good idea to hold off the dog until you're done. Just my thoughts. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Dear list, > I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to > try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably > go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it > ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know > that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a > cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I > get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any > problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a > guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? > Warmest regards, > Kirt > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun May 8 23:04:48 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 19:04:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF to WORD Converter software Message-ID: <4dc72194.454de50a.09b8.ffffaf03@mx.google.com> Does this email address, if you attach a PDF file to an email to that email address, automatically convert PDF to text and resend it to you? If not, how does it work? Can you please send me the email address? Thanks! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note ----- Original Message ----- From: "dreicer, zachary" I think I'll download that on my computer, thanks! Will this also work on notetakers? Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" Kirt, Sorry, I can't answer the question, as I use JAWS and have always used JAWS. FYI, I forwarded the email along to the other NFB-NET list I'm subscribed to, Blind Talk, and a few friends who use NVDA or have friends who do. I've heard the NVDA speech synthesizer before, and it has a pretty thick British accent. It almost sounds a little creepy to me, almost like a computer-voice Darth Vator, LOL. So, if your friend has trouble understanding some speech synthesizers, you might want to install Eloquence (if you can do that) or something. Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note ----- Original Message ----- From: Josh Gregory Hi, Terri. I know that all the Harry Potter books are available through the National Braille Press (NBP.) You can go to www.nbp.org to get more info. I'm sure they would be happy to donate to Camp Tusmehetta! I've seen a couple posts to the list that Dave Andrews has forwarded to us from the NBP Announce list. So maybe you could contact Dave and he might be able to get you in touch with his connections at NBP. By the way, I read the article about Camp Tussmeheta in the Braille Monitor and it sounds like a wonderful camp! Good for you and keep up the great work! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note ----- Original Message ----- From: "trising" , "Michigan Association of Blind Students" ,"NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,\(for parents of blind children\)" , "NFBnet Blind Parents Mailing List" ,"NFBofMichigan List" Chris, To me it sounds like this software will only work on pcs, does anybody know if this is correct? Josh sent from my Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Nusbaum Message-ID: <3FD0AC120CC74C51B8B333687E35936F@stanford.edu> If it's the BrailleNote, no. The only programs that work on the BrailleNote are those made by HumanWare, z games, and html programs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 4:04 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF to Word Converter >I think I'll download that on my computer, thanks! Will this also work on >notetakers? > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my Braille-Note > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter Donahue" To: Date sent: Sat, 7 May 2011 13:49:30 -0500 > Subject: [nabs-l] PDF to Word Converter > > Hello Sally and everyone, > > We recently began using a product called "Doxillian" which is produced > by a company in Australia called NCH Software. This package allows one to > convert between different versions of Word, PDF, TXT,RTF, and other file > formats. We've used it to convert Word .docx files to Word .doc files so > we > can read them in Word XP. Best of all this product is free and allows you > to > convert documents between multiple file formats. The direct URL for more > information and to download the package is: > http://www.nchsoftware.com/documentconvert/index.html > > Did I say that this product is completely free? That's right. > > NCH also offers a number of other packages for Windows and the MAC that > work very well with screen reading software out-of-the-box. Their main > site > is at: > http://www.nch.com.au > > Hope this helps. See y'all in Orlando. > > Peter Donahue > > "Will you come and awake our lost land from its slumber > And her fetters we'll break, links that long are encumbered. > And the air will resound with hosannas to greet you > On the shore will be found gallant Irishmen to greet you." > Will You Come to the Bower > Traditional Irish Folk Song > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From latinanewschic at gmail.com Sun May 8 23:17:29 2011 From: latinanewschic at gmail.com (Martha Harris) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 19:17:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3101D7B542594751BDC93FD5F64EF338@MarthaPC> Hi Kirt, I attended BLIND, Inc. last year with my lab Dee. I'm not sure if my info is right, but I think at CCB you are allowed to have the dog for four hours and the cane for the other four. At BLIND, Inc. I was allowed to work her to and from the center as well as at lunch and the breaks, but she was crated during classes. If you get a dog before you attend training, I'd suggest practicing leaving your dog alone where you live now, because it will help when the dog is separated from you. For the first day or two, she whined sometimes, but she got used to the routine. Before I went, I was strongly considering not going to an NFB center because of the dog policy. I was afraid my dog would lose her skills and not be useful to me anymore. That did not happen. Working in the city was a great environment for her. As long as you go places after school, the dog can get enough work. We always had to go grocery shopping or to the bank, or we spent time going to dinner, hiking, whatever activity you find enjoyable, and you have the dog all weekend. If you are there during convention time, you can work your guide there as well. What other questions do you have about guide dogs at NFB centers? Also, when it is your time, like when you travel and are not going to convention, center activities, or staying in the town where the center is, I think you can use whatever cane you want. On one of the breaks from training, I flew to Pennsylvania to see friends, and I worked my guide dog and had a telescoping cane in my bag. Oh, a tip for training, it is always a good idea to carry a telescoping or folding cane because you never know when your straight cane will break. Mine broke when we did a center activity going to the Minnesota state fair, and it is no fun to be stranded. HTH, Martha -------------------------------------------------- From: "Kirt Manwaring" Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 5:22 PM To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > Dear list, > I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to > try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably > go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it > ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know > that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a > cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I > get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any > problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a > guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/latinanewschic%40gmail.com > From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Sun May 8 23:30:46 2011 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 18:30:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF to Word Converter References: <4dc72197.454de50a.09b8.ffffaf04@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <003901cc0dd7$f54b6330$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Chris and everyone, It only works on Windows computers. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:04 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF to Word Converter I think I'll download that on my computer, thanks! Will this also work on notetakers? Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" Dear list, My name is Lauren Tuchman and I, along with Sarah Blake will be presenting a paper on the use of assistive technology in the study of Biblical languages by students who are blind and visually impaired at the Society Of Biblical Literature conference in San Francisco this November. As part of our presentation we are asking for input and feedback from those who took either Hebrew or Greek courses at the undergraduate or graduate level. Feedback is sought from both those who successfully completed coursework as well as from those who were not able to complete language courses due to issues of accessibility. We are asking respondants to fill out a brief survey, the results of which will be anonymous and kept in strictest confidence. For more information or to request a copy of the survey, please e-mail ltuchman1 at gmail.com. We ask that all responses be received by June 1. Thanks so much! If you know of anyone who may be interested, please feel free to forward this to them as well. Sincerely, Lauren Tuchman From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Mon May 9 02:37:10 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 20:37:10 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: <3101D7B542594751BDC93FD5F64EF338@MarthaPC> References: <3101D7B542594751BDC93FD5F64EF338@MarthaPC> Message-ID: To all, Thanks for the thoughts and info. Honestly, I'd prefer to get a dog after CCB but, the thing is, it's not often that a six week block of time conveniently opens up...and I happen to have that kind of time this summer. So, if I'm going to get a dog within the next year or so, soon is probably the best time...I know it's not ideal, I know it would probably be better if I did it the other way around, but I just wanted to get peoples' thoughts because I'm considering the idea. I appreciate all of you giving me your honest opinions because I've not yet made up my mind and any info I get, especially from people familiar with the process, helps. Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/8/11, Martha Harris wrote: > Hi Kirt, > I attended BLIND, Inc. last year with my lab Dee. I'm not sure if my info is > right, but I think at CCB you are allowed to have the dog for four hours and > the cane for the other four. At BLIND, Inc. I was allowed to work her to and > from the center as well as at lunch and the breaks, but she was crated > during classes. If you get a dog before you attend training, I'd suggest > practicing leaving your dog alone where you live now, because it will help > when the dog is separated from you. For the first day or two, she whined > sometimes, but she got used to the routine. Before I went, I was strongly > considering not going to an NFB center because of the dog policy. I was > afraid my dog would lose her skills and not be useful to me anymore. That > did not happen. Working in the city was a great environment for her. As long > as you go places after school, the dog can get enough work. We always had to > go grocery shopping or to the bank, or we spent time going to dinner, > hiking, whatever activity you find enjoyable, and you have the dog all > weekend. If you are there during convention time, you can work your guide > there as well. What other questions do you have about guide dogs at NFB > centers? > Also, when it is your time, like when you travel and are not going to > convention, center activities, or staying in the town where the center is, I > think you can use whatever cane you want. On one of the breaks from > training, I flew to Pennsylvania to see friends, and I worked my guide dog > and had a telescoping cane in my bag. Oh, a tip for training, it is always a > good idea to carry a telescoping or folding cane because you never know when > your straight cane will break. Mine broke when we did a center activity > going to the Minnesota state fair, and it is no fun to be stranded. > > HTH, > Martha > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Kirt Manwaring" > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 5:22 PM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > >> Dear list, >> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/latinanewschic%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Mon May 9 02:41:13 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 19:41:13 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: References: <3101D7B542594751BDC93FD5F64EF338@MarthaPC> Message-ID: And that's the beauty of list serves, plus knolageable, intelligent individuals, who will give thoughtful and honest feedback. I love the student division! :) On 5/8/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > To all, > Thanks for the thoughts and info. Honestly, I'd prefer to get a dog > after CCB but, the thing is, it's not often that a six week block of > time conveniently opens up...and I happen to have that kind of time > this summer. So, if I'm going to get a dog within the next year or > so, soon is probably the best time...I know it's not ideal, I know it > would probably be better if I did it the other way around, but I just > wanted to get peoples' thoughts because I'm considering the idea. I > appreciate all of you giving me your honest opinions because I've not > yet made up my mind and any info I get, especially from people > familiar with the process, helps. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/8/11, Martha Harris wrote: >> Hi Kirt, >> I attended BLIND, Inc. last year with my lab Dee. I'm not sure if my info >> is >> right, but I think at CCB you are allowed to have the dog for four hours >> and >> the cane for the other four. At BLIND, Inc. I was allowed to work her to >> and >> from the center as well as at lunch and the breaks, but she was crated >> during classes. If you get a dog before you attend training, I'd suggest >> practicing leaving your dog alone where you live now, because it will help >> when the dog is separated from you. For the first day or two, she whined >> sometimes, but she got used to the routine. Before I went, I was strongly >> considering not going to an NFB center because of the dog policy. I was >> afraid my dog would lose her skills and not be useful to me anymore. That >> did not happen. Working in the city was a great environment for her. As >> long >> as you go places after school, the dog can get enough work. We always had >> to >> go grocery shopping or to the bank, or we spent time going to dinner, >> hiking, whatever activity you find enjoyable, and you have the dog all >> weekend. If you are there during convention time, you can work your guide >> there as well. What other questions do you have about guide dogs at NFB >> centers? >> Also, when it is your time, like when you travel and are not going to >> convention, center activities, or staying in the town where the center is, >> I >> think you can use whatever cane you want. On one of the breaks from >> training, I flew to Pennsylvania to see friends, and I worked my guide dog >> and had a telescoping cane in my bag. Oh, a tip for training, it is always >> a >> good idea to carry a telescoping or folding cane because you never know >> when >> your straight cane will break. Mine broke when we did a center activity >> going to the Minnesota state fair, and it is no fun to be stranded. >> >> HTH, >> Martha >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 5:22 PM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >>> Dear list, >>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/latinanewschic%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Mon May 9 02:55:05 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 20:55:05 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: References: <3101D7B542594751BDC93FD5F64EF338@MarthaPC> Message-ID: Knoledgable? Intelligent? What the heck am I doing on here if those are the qualifications? *smile* On 5/8/11, Darian Smith wrote: > And that's the beauty of list serves, plus knolageable, intelligent > individuals, who will give thoughtful and honest feedback. I love > the student division! :) > > On 5/8/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> To all, >> Thanks for the thoughts and info. Honestly, I'd prefer to get a dog >> after CCB but, the thing is, it's not often that a six week block of >> time conveniently opens up...and I happen to have that kind of time >> this summer. So, if I'm going to get a dog within the next year or >> so, soon is probably the best time...I know it's not ideal, I know it >> would probably be better if I did it the other way around, but I just >> wanted to get peoples' thoughts because I'm considering the idea. I >> appreciate all of you giving me your honest opinions because I've not >> yet made up my mind and any info I get, especially from people >> familiar with the process, helps. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/8/11, Martha Harris wrote: >>> Hi Kirt, >>> I attended BLIND, Inc. last year with my lab Dee. I'm not sure if my info >>> is >>> right, but I think at CCB you are allowed to have the dog for four hours >>> and >>> the cane for the other four. At BLIND, Inc. I was allowed to work her to >>> and >>> from the center as well as at lunch and the breaks, but she was crated >>> during classes. If you get a dog before you attend training, I'd suggest >>> practicing leaving your dog alone where you live now, because it will >>> help >>> when the dog is separated from you. For the first day or two, she whined >>> sometimes, but she got used to the routine. Before I went, I was strongly >>> considering not going to an NFB center because of the dog policy. I was >>> afraid my dog would lose her skills and not be useful to me anymore. That >>> did not happen. Working in the city was a great environment for her. As >>> long >>> as you go places after school, the dog can get enough work. We always had >>> to >>> go grocery shopping or to the bank, or we spent time going to dinner, >>> hiking, whatever activity you find enjoyable, and you have the dog all >>> weekend. If you are there during convention time, you can work your guide >>> there as well. What other questions do you have about guide dogs at NFB >>> centers? >>> Also, when it is your time, like when you travel and are not going to >>> convention, center activities, or staying in the town where the center >>> is, >>> I >>> think you can use whatever cane you want. On one of the breaks from >>> training, I flew to Pennsylvania to see friends, and I worked my guide >>> dog >>> and had a telescoping cane in my bag. Oh, a tip for training, it is >>> always >>> a >>> good idea to carry a telescoping or folding cane because you never know >>> when >>> your straight cane will break. Mine broke when we did a center activity >>> going to the Minnesota state fair, and it is no fun to be stranded. >>> >>> HTH, >>> Martha >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 5:22 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> >>>> Dear list, >>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/latinanewschic%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Mon May 9 03:01:02 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 20:01:02 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: References: <3101D7B542594751BDC93FD5F64EF338@MarthaPC> Message-ID: Wait.. now that you mention it, what am I doing here! lol On 5/8/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Knoledgable? Intelligent? What the heck am I doing on here if those > are the qualifications? *smile* > > On 5/8/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> And that's the beauty of list serves, plus knolageable, intelligent >> individuals, who will give thoughtful and honest feedback. I love >> the student division! :) >> >> On 5/8/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> To all, >>> Thanks for the thoughts and info. Honestly, I'd prefer to get a dog >>> after CCB but, the thing is, it's not often that a six week block of >>> time conveniently opens up...and I happen to have that kind of time >>> this summer. So, if I'm going to get a dog within the next year or >>> so, soon is probably the best time...I know it's not ideal, I know it >>> would probably be better if I did it the other way around, but I just >>> wanted to get peoples' thoughts because I'm considering the idea. I >>> appreciate all of you giving me your honest opinions because I've not >>> yet made up my mind and any info I get, especially from people >>> familiar with the process, helps. >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/8/11, Martha Harris wrote: >>>> Hi Kirt, >>>> I attended BLIND, Inc. last year with my lab Dee. I'm not sure if my >>>> info >>>> is >>>> right, but I think at CCB you are allowed to have the dog for four hours >>>> and >>>> the cane for the other four. At BLIND, Inc. I was allowed to work her to >>>> and >>>> from the center as well as at lunch and the breaks, but she was crated >>>> during classes. If you get a dog before you attend training, I'd suggest >>>> practicing leaving your dog alone where you live now, because it will >>>> help >>>> when the dog is separated from you. For the first day or two, she whined >>>> sometimes, but she got used to the routine. Before I went, I was >>>> strongly >>>> considering not going to an NFB center because of the dog policy. I was >>>> afraid my dog would lose her skills and not be useful to me anymore. >>>> That >>>> did not happen. Working in the city was a great environment for her. As >>>> long >>>> as you go places after school, the dog can get enough work. We always >>>> had >>>> to >>>> go grocery shopping or to the bank, or we spent time going to dinner, >>>> hiking, whatever activity you find enjoyable, and you have the dog all >>>> weekend. If you are there during convention time, you can work your >>>> guide >>>> there as well. What other questions do you have about guide dogs at NFB >>>> centers? >>>> Also, when it is your time, like when you travel and are not going to >>>> convention, center activities, or staying in the town where the center >>>> is, >>>> I >>>> think you can use whatever cane you want. On one of the breaks from >>>> training, I flew to Pennsylvania to see friends, and I worked my guide >>>> dog >>>> and had a telescoping cane in my bag. Oh, a tip for training, it is >>>> always >>>> a >>>> good idea to carry a telescoping or folding cane because you never know >>>> when >>>> your straight cane will break. Mine broke when we did a center activity >>>> going to the Minnesota state fair, and it is no fun to be stranded. >>>> >>>> HTH, >>>> Martha >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 5:22 PM >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>> >>>>> Dear list, >>>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/latinanewschic%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> — Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From beckyasabo at gmail.com Mon May 9 03:03:09 2011 From: beckyasabo at gmail.com (becky sabo ) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 21:03:09 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: References: <3101D7B542594751BDC93FD5F64EF338@MarthaPC> Message-ID: <54A2E6E3571C400288852A9E5C6278CC@BeckySabo> Hi everyone, I went to ccb with a guide dog but I had to retire her. I learned how to use a cane. I went and got a new guide dog after I graduated from ccb. I am retiring my guide dog raven and going to get my third dog. Becky and raven -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 8:55 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs Knoledgable? Intelligent? What the heck am I doing on here if those are the qualifications? *smile* On 5/8/11, Darian Smith wrote: > And that's the beauty of list serves, plus knolageable, intelligent > individuals, who will give thoughtful and honest feedback. I love > the student division! :) > > On 5/8/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> To all, >> Thanks for the thoughts and info. Honestly, I'd prefer to get a dog >> after CCB but, the thing is, it's not often that a six week block of >> time conveniently opens up...and I happen to have that kind of time >> this summer. So, if I'm going to get a dog within the next year or >> so, soon is probably the best time...I know it's not ideal, I know it >> would probably be better if I did it the other way around, but I just >> wanted to get peoples' thoughts because I'm considering the idea. I >> appreciate all of you giving me your honest opinions because I've not >> yet made up my mind and any info I get, especially from people >> familiar with the process, helps. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/8/11, Martha Harris wrote: >>> Hi Kirt, >>> I attended BLIND, Inc. last year with my lab Dee. I'm not sure if my info >>> is >>> right, but I think at CCB you are allowed to have the dog for four hours >>> and >>> the cane for the other four. At BLIND, Inc. I was allowed to work her to >>> and >>> from the center as well as at lunch and the breaks, but she was crated >>> during classes. If you get a dog before you attend training, I'd suggest >>> practicing leaving your dog alone where you live now, because it will >>> help >>> when the dog is separated from you. For the first day or two, she whined >>> sometimes, but she got used to the routine. Before I went, I was strongly >>> considering not going to an NFB center because of the dog policy. I was >>> afraid my dog would lose her skills and not be useful to me anymore. That >>> did not happen. Working in the city was a great environment for her. As >>> long >>> as you go places after school, the dog can get enough work. We always had >>> to >>> go grocery shopping or to the bank, or we spent time going to dinner, >>> hiking, whatever activity you find enjoyable, and you have the dog all >>> weekend. If you are there during convention time, you can work your guide >>> there as well. What other questions do you have about guide dogs at NFB >>> centers? >>> Also, when it is your time, like when you travel and are not going to >>> convention, center activities, or staying in the town where the center >>> is, >>> I >>> think you can use whatever cane you want. On one of the breaks from >>> training, I flew to Pennsylvania to see friends, and I worked my guide >>> dog >>> and had a telescoping cane in my bag. Oh, a tip for training, it is >>> always >>> a >>> good idea to carry a telescoping or folding cane because you never know >>> when >>> your straight cane will break. Mine broke when we did a center activity >>> going to the Minnesota state fair, and it is no fun to be stranded. >>> >>> HTH, >>> Martha >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 5:22 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> >>>> Dear list, >>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/latinanewschic%40gma il.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.co m >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/beckyasabo%40gmail.c om From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon May 9 03:49:03 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 23:49:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material In-Reply-To: <2005568966.14651.1304895037036.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2005568966.14651.1304895037036.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Amy, Same here. I use MS word to see the study guide and make my own notes after the material. I use a reader the best I can with the time I have. -----Original Message----- From: Amy Sabo Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:50 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material hello ashley and all, when i did study guides for my classes i would scan the study guide into kurtzwell and then copy and paste it into msword to do them. i would use my notes by copying and then pasting them into the studdy guide. as for looking for the material from the book i would use my cctvv to look them up in the index or the gllossary or if i couldn't use my cctv i would use a reader for it. i hope this is helpful for you. take care and, i will talk to you soon. hugs, amy ----- Original Message ----- From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Sent: Mon, 02 May 2011 04:31:32 -0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material Hi all, College texts are full of words and examples. Frustrating when you cannot skim through especially when you need the highlights for a test. I take notes when reading. But my notes don’t always amount to what the professor tells us to study for the test, if they tell us. So what do you do when the professor has a study guide? Some students take it and jot down the coresponding pages to the study topics and study those pages. How do you use it? Sometimes professors give a list of terms/concepts to study or a list of questions to guide your preparation. My communication professor outlined on the board what concepts we needed to know for our final. But here’s the thing. I cannot skim the text or look up words. My notes may or may not have them. Even if they do, its still looking for a needle in a haystack when reviewing for finals! So I’ve usually had to ask a reader; they act as my eyes and look in the index for the key words or skim for the key words or headings in the chapter. For me, I usually use audio whenever possible. But even with e-texts, I cannot skim because I don’t know the exact phrase and without that the computer does Not know what to look for; also it is divided in to chapters and I cannot search across chapters. Another thing, how do you work with open book exams? Do you have a reader there and they look up any info from the book? That is what I’ve done. Again, openbook tests let you use it as a reference tool, but that is hard for us. So any tips for studying or “skimming” would be good. How can you direct a reader to actually skim? Usually they will read too much to me rather than just the main paragraph of the topic; generally under the main headings I find the introduction to the concept and smaller headings tell you details/examples. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon May 9 03:54:02 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 23:54:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: References: <317475869.13423.1304891314579.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Kirt, When on your own time you can use the cane of your choice; for classes and center activities they want the NFB straight cane. -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs Amy, Nicole and all, If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: > hello kurt, > > i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring > your > guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your > activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, > hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions to > this topic. > > take care and good luck in coming to ccb. > > > hugs, > amy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) > Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > > Dear list, > I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to > try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably > go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it > ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know > that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a > cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I > get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any > problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a > guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Mon May 9 04:04:38 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 22:04:38 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: References: <317475869.13423.1304891314579.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Becky, Did you have to retire your dog because she was with you at the CCB, or was it an unrelated reason? On 5/8/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Kirt, > When on your own time you can use the cane of your choice; for classes and > center activities they want the NFB straight cane. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > > Amy, Nicole and all, > If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple > months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new > friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time > which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, > however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a > center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you > travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I > mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over > the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there > be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for > the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you > know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone > care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you > guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that > would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make > sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >> hello kurt, >> >> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >> your >> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions to >> this topic. >> >> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >> >> >> hugs, >> amy >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kirt Manwaring >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >> Dear list, >> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Mon May 9 04:16:09 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 22:16:09 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material In-Reply-To: References: <2005568966.14651.1304895037036.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: To all, As is often the case, I find myself echoing Mike here. Readers seem like they're the best option, from my experience. If it's an etext, I'll usually just speed jaws up and listen-not as reliable as a reader and I've been known to hit down arrow/page down until it sounds like it's talking about what I need...but hey, it works. Kind of. Also, I don't know if you use daisy books but, if you do, bookmarks are lifesavers. But nothing beats a human reader. On 5/8/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Amy, > Same here. I use MS word to see the study guide and make my own notes after > the material. > I use a reader the best I can with the time I have. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Amy Sabo > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:50 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > hello ashley and all, > > when i did study guides for my classes i would scan the study guide into > kurtzwell and then copy and paste it into msword to do them. i would use my > notes by copying and then pasting them into the studdy guide. as for looking > for the material from the book i would use my cctvv to look them up in the > index or the gllossary or if i couldn't use my cctv i would use a reader for > it. > > i hope this is helpful for you. take care and, i will talk to you soon. > > > hugs, > amy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Sent: Mon, 02 May 2011 04:31:32 -0000 (UTC) > Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > > Hi all, > > > > College texts are full of words and examples. Frustrating when you cannot > skim through especially when you need the highlights for a test. > > I take notes when reading. But my notes don’t always amount to what the > professor tells us to study for the test, if they tell us. > > > > So what do you do when the professor has a study guide? > > Some students take it and jot down the coresponding pages to the study > topics and study those pages. > > How do you use it? > > Sometimes professors give a list of terms/concepts to study or a list of > questions to guide your preparation. My communication professor outlined on > the board what concepts we needed to know for our final. > > But here’s the thing. I cannot skim the text or look up words. My notes > may or may not have them. Even if they do, its still looking for a needle > in a haystack when reviewing for finals! So I’ve usually had to ask a > reader; they act as my eyes and look in the index for the key words or skim > for the key words or headings in the chapter. > > > > For me, I usually use audio whenever possible. But even with e-texts, I > cannot skim because I don’t know the exact phrase and without that the > computer does Not know what to look for; also > > it is divided in to chapters and I cannot search across chapters. > > Another thing, how do you work with open book exams? > > Do you have a reader there and they look up any info from the book? That is > what I’ve done. > > Again, openbook tests let you use it as a reference tool, but that is hard > for us. > > > > So any tips for studying or “skimming” would be good. How can you direct a > reader to actually skim? Usually they will read too much to me rather than > just the main paragraph of the topic; generally under the main headings I > find the introduction to the concept and smaller headings tell you > details/examples. > > > > > > Ashley > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Mon May 9 04:21:53 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 22:21:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF to Word Converter In-Reply-To: <003901cc0dd7$f54b6330$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <4dc72197.454de50a.09b8.ffffaf04@mx.google.com> <003901cc0dd7$f54b6330$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Peter, How does this program handle scanned PDF files? Best regards, Kirt On 5/8/11, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello Chris and everyone, > > It only works on Windows computers. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Nusbaum" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:04 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF to Word Converter > > > I think I'll download that on my computer, thanks! Will this also > work on notetakers? > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my Braille-Note > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter Donahue" To: Date sent: Sat, 7 May 2011 13:49:30 -0500 > Subject: [nabs-l] PDF to Word Converter > > Hello Sally and everyone, > > We recently began using a product called "Doxillian" which is > produced > by a company in Australia called NCH Software. This package > allows one to > convert between different versions of Word, PDF, TXT,RTF, and > other file > formats. We've used it to convert Word .docx files to Word .doc > files so we > can read them in Word XP. Best of all this product is free and > allows you to > convert documents between multiple file formats. The direct URL > for more > information and to download the package is: > http://www.nchsoftware.com/documentconvert/index.html > > Did I say that this product is completely free? That's right. > > NCH also offers a number of other packages for Windows and > the MAC that > work very well with screen reading software out-of-the-box. > Their main site > is at: > http://www.nch.com.au > > Hope this helps. See y'all in Orlando. > > Peter Donahue > > "Will you come and awake our lost land from its slumber > And her fetters we'll break, links that long are > encumbered. > And the air will resound with hosannas to greet you > On the shore will be found gallant Irishmen to greet you." > Will You Come to the Bower > Traditional Irish Folk Song > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Mon May 9 04:57:07 2011 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 23:57:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs Message-ID: <006801cc0e05$8d0c7150$a72553f0$@com> RJ, I don't know anybody with perfect cane skills. Does that mean that nobody ought to get a dog? Kirt, in my experience at LCB, what you do on your own time is your business. If you want to travel with a dog and throw a folding cane in your backpack there shouldn't be any problem with that. Take care, Sean From nabs.president at gmail.com Mon May 9 05:12:40 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 23:12:40 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: <006801cc0e05$8d0c7150$a72553f0$@com> References: <006801cc0e05$8d0c7150$a72553f0$@com> Message-ID: Each NFB center handles guide dog things a little differently, so I'd advise calling up Julie Deden or another staff member at the CCB to find out their specific rules. As others have said, I'm pretty sure that at CCB, you can work your dog and carry a folding cane during evenings and weekends and going to and from the center each day. Arielle On 5/8/11, Sean Whalen wrote: > RJ, I don't know anybody with perfect cane skills. Does that mean that > nobody ought to get a dog? > > > > Kirt, in my experience at LCB, what you do on your own time is your > business. If you want to travel with a dog and throw a folding cane in your > backpack there shouldn't be any problem with that. > > > > Take care, > > > > Sean > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From gpaikens at gmail.com Mon May 9 05:41:53 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 00:41:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: References: <3101D7B542594751BDC93FD5F64EF338@MarthaPC> Message-ID: <852C1790-B3A0-48D9-9F6E-E0077288B6B6@gmail.com> Kurt, Do some dog guide schools require a 6 week program? The one I attended and the others I checked out only had 4 week programs for first time dog users. -Greg On May 8, 2011, at 9:37 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > To all, > Thanks for the thoughts and info. Honestly, I'd prefer to get a dog > after CCB but, the thing is, it's not often that a six week block of > time conveniently opens up...and I happen to have that kind of time > this summer. So, if I'm going to get a dog within the next year or > so, soon is probably the best time...I know it's not ideal, I know it > would probably be better if I did it the other way around, but I just > wanted to get peoples' thoughts because I'm considering the idea. I > appreciate all of you giving me your honest opinions because I've not > yet made up my mind and any info I get, especially from people > familiar with the process, helps. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/8/11, Martha Harris wrote: >> Hi Kirt, >> I attended BLIND, Inc. last year with my lab Dee. I'm not sure if my info is >> right, but I think at CCB you are allowed to have the dog for four hours and >> the cane for the other four. At BLIND, Inc. I was allowed to work her to and >> from the center as well as at lunch and the breaks, but she was crated >> during classes. If you get a dog before you attend training, I'd suggest >> practicing leaving your dog alone where you live now, because it will help >> when the dog is separated from you. For the first day or two, she whined >> sometimes, but she got used to the routine. Before I went, I was strongly >> considering not going to an NFB center because of the dog policy. I was >> afraid my dog would lose her skills and not be useful to me anymore. That >> did not happen. Working in the city was a great environment for her. As long >> as you go places after school, the dog can get enough work. We always had to >> go grocery shopping or to the bank, or we spent time going to dinner, >> hiking, whatever activity you find enjoyable, and you have the dog all >> weekend. If you are there during convention time, you can work your guide >> there as well. What other questions do you have about guide dogs at NFB >> centers? >> Also, when it is your time, like when you travel and are not going to >> convention, center activities, or staying in the town where the center is, I >> think you can use whatever cane you want. On one of the breaks from >> training, I flew to Pennsylvania to see friends, and I worked my guide dog >> and had a telescoping cane in my bag. Oh, a tip for training, it is always a >> good idea to carry a telescoping or folding cane because you never know when >> your straight cane will break. Mine broke when we did a center activity >> going to the Minnesota state fair, and it is no fun to be stranded. >> >> HTH, >> Martha >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 5:22 PM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >>> Dear list, >>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/latinanewschic%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Mon May 9 05:55:32 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 23:55:32 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: <852C1790-B3A0-48D9-9F6E-E0077288B6B6@gmail.com> References: <3101D7B542594751BDC93FD5F64EF338@MarthaPC> <852C1790-B3A0-48D9-9F6E-E0077288B6B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: Greg, Seeing eye, the one I'm leaning towards and would probably choose if I decided to get a dog, requires 6 weeks. But even 4 weeks is easiest in the summer. I suppose I could wait until after I'm done at CCB (assuming rehab goes for it), then see what sort of free time opens up later. Arielle, Thanks. I'll certainly talk to Julie. Best regards, Kirt On 5/8/11, Greg Aikens wrote: > Kurt, > Do some dog guide schools require a 6 week program? The one I attended and > the others I checked out only had 4 week programs for first time dog users. > > -Greg > On May 8, 2011, at 9:37 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >> To all, >> Thanks for the thoughts and info. Honestly, I'd prefer to get a dog >> after CCB but, the thing is, it's not often that a six week block of >> time conveniently opens up...and I happen to have that kind of time >> this summer. So, if I'm going to get a dog within the next year or >> so, soon is probably the best time...I know it's not ideal, I know it >> would probably be better if I did it the other way around, but I just >> wanted to get peoples' thoughts because I'm considering the idea. I >> appreciate all of you giving me your honest opinions because I've not >> yet made up my mind and any info I get, especially from people >> familiar with the process, helps. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/8/11, Martha Harris wrote: >>> Hi Kirt, >>> I attended BLIND, Inc. last year with my lab Dee. I'm not sure if my info >>> is >>> right, but I think at CCB you are allowed to have the dog for four hours >>> and >>> the cane for the other four. At BLIND, Inc. I was allowed to work her to >>> and >>> from the center as well as at lunch and the breaks, but she was crated >>> during classes. If you get a dog before you attend training, I'd suggest >>> practicing leaving your dog alone where you live now, because it will >>> help >>> when the dog is separated from you. For the first day or two, she whined >>> sometimes, but she got used to the routine. Before I went, I was strongly >>> considering not going to an NFB center because of the dog policy. I was >>> afraid my dog would lose her skills and not be useful to me anymore. That >>> did not happen. Working in the city was a great environment for her. As >>> long >>> as you go places after school, the dog can get enough work. We always had >>> to >>> go grocery shopping or to the bank, or we spent time going to dinner, >>> hiking, whatever activity you find enjoyable, and you have the dog all >>> weekend. If you are there during convention time, you can work your guide >>> there as well. What other questions do you have about guide dogs at NFB >>> centers? >>> Also, when it is your time, like when you travel and are not going to >>> convention, center activities, or staying in the town where the center >>> is, I >>> think you can use whatever cane you want. On one of the breaks from >>> training, I flew to Pennsylvania to see friends, and I worked my guide >>> dog >>> and had a telescoping cane in my bag. Oh, a tip for training, it is >>> always a >>> good idea to carry a telescoping or folding cane because you never know >>> when >>> your straight cane will break. Mine broke when we did a center activity >>> going to the Minnesota state fair, and it is no fun to be stranded. >>> >>> HTH, >>> Martha >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 5:22 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> >>>> Dear list, >>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/latinanewschic%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From jessmonsilva2003 at sbcglobal.net Mon May 9 07:27:12 2011 From: jessmonsilva2003 at sbcglobal.net (Jessica Silva) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 00:27:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS In-Reply-To: <495368532.13864.1304892776685.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <17847.14288.qm@web83401.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I definitely do see use for the pedestrian signals in certain situations.  For instance, as someone else stated at least in my oppinion I find T intersections very hard to cross either do to the lack of paralell traffic or the infrequentness of it.  Secondly, I actually would think it could be pretty useful as well in some regular four way stops especially if you're crossing a busy street and the intersecting street doesn't have too much traffic.  I live right next to one of these intersections and I have to cross a major busy street to get to the bart station every morning.  The street I live on intersects with this busy street but there isn't enough traffic for me to really get enough of an idea when the cycle starts so I'm having to rely on good judgement and hope for the best.  While there are several times when a pedestrian is not necessary it's during these times that they do become necessary because it's just that much harder to cross a street just based on listening for paralell traffic. Jessica silva --- On Sun, 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: From: Amy Sabo Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date: Sunday, May 8, 2011, 4:12 PM hello ashely and all, as to the topic on accessible signal aps i don;t use them that much but, there are times when i use them for my safety. i use it the most when they are at a busy area like nnear downtown denver where thetre are alot of traffic. but, for the rest of the time i don't use them. i think that they are helpful in someways but, not on other times when we don't need them. this is just my thoughts on this topic. thanks again and, i will talk to you all soon. hugs, amy    ----- Original Message ----- From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Sent: Mon, 02 May 2011 22:36:42 -0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS Hi all, I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they are taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency topics and really trashing the NFB and they don’t know the real positions and facts.  They think NFB opposes both. I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions?  Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. What is the national position? Any late resolutions?  Also, what do you think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? Personally, I’d like the APS at intersections where you have to press the walk button as a pedestrian.  We cannot see the walk signal to know when our time starts; you have to press the button in order to tell the computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk phase to cross the street.  I think these are called actuated signals.  These streets favor drivers, not pedestrians; the busier streets get more traffic time.  That change of the signal is activated by a computer. At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, without a button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues to hear to cross.  I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great.  Some signals even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk interval. So I guess I see APS as a benefit  when you have insufficient traffic cues to cross the street.  I’ve tried to learn how to cross T streets, and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help there too.  No parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on APS, so I’m not sure what it is now.  I certainly don’t want them everywhere, but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see their use. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessmonsilva2003%40sbcglobal.net From ignasicambra at gmail.com Mon May 9 08:04:15 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 04:04:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: References: <3101D7B542594751BDC93FD5F64EF338@MarthaPC> Message-ID: <91C2F702-DB5C-42BB-AD71-6E4CA1907F3F@gmail.com> I don't understand... Aren't those training centers supposed to prepare you for real life? If real life for you is to have a guide dog, why in the world would they not allow you to bring it to class? IC On May 8, 2011, at 10:37 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > To all, > Thanks for the thoughts and info. Honestly, I'd prefer to get a dog > after CCB but, the thing is, it's not often that a six week block of > time conveniently opens up...and I happen to have that kind of time > this summer. So, if I'm going to get a dog within the next year or > so, soon is probably the best time...I know it's not ideal, I know it > would probably be better if I did it the other way around, but I just > wanted to get peoples' thoughts because I'm considering the idea. I > appreciate all of you giving me your honest opinions because I've not > yet made up my mind and any info I get, especially from people > familiar with the process, helps. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/8/11, Martha Harris wrote: >> Hi Kirt, >> I attended BLIND, Inc. last year with my lab Dee. I'm not sure if my info is >> right, but I think at CCB you are allowed to have the dog for four hours and >> the cane for the other four. At BLIND, Inc. I was allowed to work her to and >> from the center as well as at lunch and the breaks, but she was crated >> during classes. If you get a dog before you attend training, I'd suggest >> practicing leaving your dog alone where you live now, because it will help >> when the dog is separated from you. For the first day or two, she whined >> sometimes, but she got used to the routine. Before I went, I was strongly >> considering not going to an NFB center because of the dog policy. I was >> afraid my dog would lose her skills and not be useful to me anymore. That >> did not happen. Working in the city was a great environment for her. As long >> as you go places after school, the dog can get enough work. We always had to >> go grocery shopping or to the bank, or we spent time going to dinner, >> hiking, whatever activity you find enjoyable, and you have the dog all >> weekend. If you are there during convention time, you can work your guide >> there as well. What other questions do you have about guide dogs at NFB >> centers? >> Also, when it is your time, like when you travel and are not going to >> convention, center activities, or staying in the town where the center is, I >> think you can use whatever cane you want. On one of the breaks from >> training, I flew to Pennsylvania to see friends, and I worked my guide dog >> and had a telescoping cane in my bag. Oh, a tip for training, it is always a >> good idea to carry a telescoping or folding cane because you never know when >> your straight cane will break. Mine broke when we did a center activity >> going to the Minnesota state fair, and it is no fun to be stranded. >> >> HTH, >> Martha >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 5:22 PM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >>> Dear list, >>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/latinanewschic%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Mon May 9 08:06:49 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 04:06:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A few questions about NVDA In-Reply-To: <4dc7219e.454de50a.09b8.ffffaf08@mx.google.com> References: <4dc7219e.454de50a.09b8.ffffaf08@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <21500D34-D2EB-4B13-B861-9AA92F8F0799@gmail.com> NVDA uses Espeak as its synthesizer. It's not the best, but it definitely works and it's not bad at all for something that you can get for free. On May 8, 2011, at 7:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Kirt, > > Sorry, I can't answer the question, as I use JAWS and have always used JAWS. FYI, I forwarded the email along to the other NFB-NET list I'm subscribed to, Blind Talk, and a few friends who use NVDA or have friends who do. I've heard the NVDA speech synthesizer before, and it has a pretty thick British accent. It almost sounds a little creepy to me, almost like a computer-voice Darth Vator, LOL. So, if your friend has trouble understanding some speech synthesizers, you might want to install Eloquence (if you can do that) or something. > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my Braille-Note > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Josh Gregory To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 07 May 2011 16:40:17 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A few questions about NVDA > > Kirt, from what I have seen and done with it, as I do have it, > it's basically the same as JAWS but with a few command changes, > to get to NVDA menu while in it press insert N, things like that. > It's about as customizable as JAWS. You can change the NVDA key > from insert to shift, things like that. The web browser > experience is good, pretty similar to JAWS, form fields, > headings, all that. Edit fields are similar to JAWS, tab to an > edit box, type in your info and when you hit enter it'll give > kind of a clicking sound to tell you the text has been entered. > I imagine the rest of the browser stuff is the same as JAWS. > That's the web browser portion of it, and I imagine that it'd > work the same with JAWS as most other apps like MS word and email > and stuff like that. What do people think? And, as I'm sure I've > left * a lot * of stuff out, if I have, can people please add to > this? Thanks! > HTH, > Josh > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 7 May 2011 14:22:06 -0600 > Subject: [nabs-l] A few questions about NVDA > > Dear Nabs List, > I'm helping a friend learn how to use computers. Due to some > circumstances I don't want to go in to, he's pretty much on his > own > with money and he can afford a decent laptop. He has very little > experience using computers. Since he can't afford jaws, I was > thinking about setting him up with NVDA and getting him started > that > way. Do you guys think that's a viable option for basic computer > use-web browsing, email, word processing and the like? If so, > how > steap is the learning curve. I consider myself an intermediate > to > advanced computer user, I've used jaws for years, but how similar > is > the NVDA interface with jaws? I'd appreciate it if any NVDA > users > could get in touch with me, either on or off-list. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Mon May 9 09:42:56 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 05:42:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] gmail and Outlook 2003 problem In-Reply-To: <6AE5F434EC07485A937DEA335C60E642@SerenaPC> References: <6AE5F434EC07485A937DEA335C60E642@SerenaPC> Message-ID: <705146D0-A4C4-4352-BEEE-0DC5D6284FB6@gmail.com> Did you install all the updates to Office 2003? That version is pretty old... On May 8, 2011, at 6:22 PM, Serena Cucco wrote: > Hey Nabsters, > > > > I know this is more of a technology question than a blindness question, but > seeing many of you use gmail, maybe you might have some ideas. I just > started using Gmail with Microsoft Outlook 2003. (It's often difficult for > me to go online and use web-based email with Jaws, so I use Outlook, > instead.) Every time I open Outlook, the following error message is > displayed: "Internet security warning dialogue: The server you are connected > to is using a security certificate that cannot be verified. The CN name > does not match the past value. Do you want to continue using this server?" > I say yes and everything is fine, but it's quite annoying to keep getting > the error message. What can be done to fix this? > > > > Thanks, > > Serena > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Mon May 9 09:46:11 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 05:46:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: <75ADE2B698D447599DF3C90476F9464D@hometwxakonvzn> References: <317475869.13423.1304891314579.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <75ADE2B698D447599DF3C90476F9464D@hometwxakonvzn> Message-ID: <47AA9D43-9FDF-42D8-9884-21701C7AE18B@gmail.com> I think the answer to your problem is quite simple: are you good at traveling with a cane? Sometimes I feel like people simply don't try to go to places by themselves until they attend a training center. The truth is that if you have good O&M skills, it doesn't matter if you get the dog before or after you attend the training center. If, on the other hand, you are planning on getting all your O&M at the center, it's probably best to get the dog afterwards. On May 8, 2011, at 6:11 PM, RJ Sandefur wrote: > Don't get a dog. Before you get a dog, your cane skills should be perfect. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > > >> Amy, Nicole and all, >> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>> hello kurt, >>> >>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring your >>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions to >>> this topic. >>> >>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >>> >>> >>> hugs, >>> amy >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> >>> Dear list, >>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Mon May 9 10:20:52 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 06:20:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College In-Reply-To: <20110508210457.25404.8223@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> References: <20110508210457.25404.8223@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> Message-ID: <47526C59-C316-4311-8047-03CECE1CD1DD@gmail.com> I think many times the problem is that we literally want to consider ourselves equal to the sighted in every way. I think it's obvious that as blind people we do pretty much everything we need to do with more or less training. But if you ask me, I'm not doing any of those things because I want to be equal with anybody else. I do what I do because I need to do it, and if I need to learn some blindness-specific techniques to accomplish something I will learn them because it's good for me. In most cases, successful blind people are equal to successful sighted people in terms of how competent they are at what they do, in terms of their skills etc. But there are some facts which are undeniable: for example, blind people are not able to drive a car independently to go to work every day. We don't know what will happen in the future, but today, this is a fact. Does this make us inferior to the sighted? Of course it doesn't, because we can find alternative ways of getting to places. But are we equal to the sighted in terms of being able to travel to places independently? I think we are not and, if you ask me, it's not such a huge drama to think about it in this way. I'm not saying that blind people are worse than sighted people in any way, I'm just saying that in a world created mostly for sighted people, being blind has some disadvantages which cannot be mitigated with training and/or opportunity. Fortunately enough, those disadvantages are really not too bad after all, and blind people can be, in most ways, just like anyone else. Is it really so hard to accept that there are a few things out there which really cannot be done without sight? As blind people, we of course need to find ways to do those things in the future if technology can help, but at the same time we need to be realistic. I do believe that some things which we consider impossible right now will be possible in the future, but I don't see the point of saying that we are equal to the sighted in every possible way. I don't mind accepting that there are a few things that I can't do as a blind person, because even if I tell myself that I can do them if I want to, I still won't be able to do them. If at some point in the future I see that I actually have a practical and realistic way of doing those things, then I will tell myself that I can do them. On May 8, 2011, at 5:04 PM, Jedi wrote: > Kirt, > > I think that if we decide to conclude that we will never be truly equal even with training based on the setbacks we experience, we've basically doomed ourselves to a kind of learned helplessness. Instead, I'd rather focus my energy on the intrensic value of blind people in society and our intrensic equality with the sighted because that's the philosophy that propels me to find solutions to the setbacks we do face and to gather the necessary cooperation from both the blind and the sighted to make them work. I think that's what Jacobus tenbroek did when he got the NFB started. Seems how it worked for him and the loads of leaders that have come after, I think I'll repeat this successful action. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> Jedi, >> (there are a lot of people I could reply to but I want to talk to >> Jedi right now), >> Fair enough-there are certainly other disabilities, both personal or >> circumstancial, that are as limiting as blindness is without >> training-what does that have to do with blindness making us unable to >> perform on an equal level as the rest of the world without training >> and opportunity? I mean, sure there are plenty of other limiting >> factors in life, what does that have to do with blindness being or not >> being a limiting factor? >> Josh-helpless is bad. I think we all agree on that here. But I >> still say we're not equal with the sighted world, in terms of >> capability, without propper training. And, I'd submit, even with >> propper training, blindness is stil a disability and, as such, will >> always cause problems here and there although they would be more >> inconveniences than drastic debilitating issues. >> Just my thoughts, >> Kirt > >> On 5/7/11, Josh Gregory wrote: >>> Hey, can you explain that? I find it interesting. Your thought, >>> I mean. Feel free to write offlist if you want. > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Mike Freeman" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >> Date sent: Sat, 7 May 2011 20:19:57 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy >>> College > >>> Or perhaps whatever god you believe in knows you can't write your >>> insights >>> down so, taking a page from the Devil, inspires all sorts of >>> universally >>> true and enlightening insights a la Firmat's Theorem that will >>> vanish into >>> thin air in the morning. (grin) > >>> Mike > > >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>> Of Josh Gregory >>> Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 8:09 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy >>> College > >>> Um... maybe Cause your mind is more relaxed? You don't have to >>> think about >>> much so you can think more clearly? IDK. Just my late-night >>> thoughts... >>> Josh > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Date sent: Sat, 7 May 2011 20:06:13 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy >>> College > >>> Lol, yes. Why is it that everything comes to you when you are in >>> bed? > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Jedi" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 7:34 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy >>> College > > >>> Yeah, I'd say so. But I was thinking a while ago and realized >>> that there >>> are loads of cases where training is required in order to >>> function, not >>> just blindness. I can't remember what specific examples I >>> thought of at >>> the time, but I'm sure they'll hit me at some God-forsaken hour >>> of the >>> night. > >>> Respectfully, >>> JEdi > >>> Original message: >>> Jedi, >>> Maybe it'll makemore sense if I say it this way. I wasn't >>> refering >>> to a person's intrinsic value. I should've said we can't >>> compete on >>> an equal level by default. I'm going to invert a statement >>> you've >>> heard a billion times. Without propper training and >>> opportunity, >>> blindness is a great deal more than a mere nuisence, and is, in >>> fact, >>> a very significant limitation. Would you agree? >>> Best regards, >>> Kirt > >>> On 5/7/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>> I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time >>> back in >>> 2004. >>> I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was >>> always >>> playing >>> outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the >>> time and we >>> were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. >>> Actually, when >>> they >>> were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide >>> dog, but >>> Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog >>> walking too >>> fast >>> :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is >>> still >>> working >>> wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog >>> they >>> assigned >>> me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the >>> advantage of >>> instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from >>> for each >>> person. > >>> IC >>> On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: > >>> I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met >>> him and >>> was >>> quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth >>> kind of >>> guy >>> who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good >>> kid. > >>> I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It >>> makes >>> so >>> much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible >>> Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. > >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi > >>> Original message: >>> What do you guys think of this? >>> http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >>> jedi%40samobile.net > >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >>> Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam >>> bra%40gmail.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>> ydude%40gmail.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >>> jedi%40samobile.net > >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >>> Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin >>> i%40wavecable.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >>> 2%40gmail.com > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>> anix.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >>> 2%40gmail.com > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Mon May 9 10:22:56 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 06:22:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College In-Reply-To: <20110508205756.25386.31813@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> References: <20110508205756.25386.31813@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> Message-ID: I think a lot while doing dishes too. All those noises are very stimulating, aren't they? And if your soap smells good then it's even better :)! On May 8, 2011, at 4:57 PM, Jedi wrote: > I tend to think a lot in the shower, too. Same with doing dishes. > > Respectfully Submitted > > Original message: >> Or in the shower? Some of my best philosophical writing got its start in the >> shower. > >> Mike > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >> Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 8:06 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College > >> Lol, yes. Why is it that everything comes to you when you are in bed? > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jedi" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 7:34 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College > > >>> Yeah, I'd say so. But I was thinking a while ago and realized that there >>> are loads of cases where training is required in order to function, not >>> just blindness. I can't remember what specific examples I thought of at >>> the time, but I'm sure they'll hit me at some God-forsaken hour of the >>> night. > >>> Respectfully, >>> JEdi > >>> Original message: >>>> Jedi, >>>> Maybe it'll makemore sense if I say it this way. I wasn't refering >>>> to a person's intrinsic value. I should've said we can't compete on >>>> an equal level by default. I'm going to invert a statement you've >>>> heard a billion times. Without propper training and opportunity, >>>> blindness is a great deal more than a mere nuisence, and is, in fact, >>>> a very significant limitation. Would you agree? >>>> Best regards, >>>> Kirt > >>>> On 5/7/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>> I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time back in >>>>> 2004. >>>>> I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was always >>>>> playing >>>>> outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the time and we >>>>> were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. Actually, when >>>>> they >>>>> were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide dog, but >>>>> Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog walking too >>>>> fast >>>>> :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is still >>>>> working >>>>> wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog they >>>>> assigned >>>>> me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the advantage of >>>>> instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from for each >>>>> person. > >>>>> IC >>>>> On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: > >>>>>> I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him and >>>>>> was >>>>>> quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind of >>>>>> guy >>>>>> who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good kid. > >>>>>> I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It makes >>>>>> so >>>>>> much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible >>>>>> Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. > >>>>>> Respectfully, >>>>>> Jedi > >>>>>> Original message: >>>>>>> What do you guys think of this? >>>>>>> http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo >> bile.net > >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >> .com > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >> il.com > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo >> bile.net > >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecab >> le.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Mon May 9 16:15:11 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 10:15:11 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College In-Reply-To: References: <20110508205756.25386.31813@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> Message-ID: Jedi, I never said we aren't equal after training-I think we are, for all intents and purposes. That being said, blindness is still an inconvenience after any sort of training I saw a well-trained, totally respectable leader in the NFB, who I'm sure you know by name, take a big group in to a vending machine because he thought that's where the door was. Of course he fixed his mistake, but it still set us back a minute or so. And I can't really think of many better trained or more "equal" blind people than this gentleman, for whom I have the utmost respect. Fact is, that's a mistake a sighted person probably wouldn't have made. (or, at least, a sighted person would've figured out we were going the wrong way quite a while before we actually touched the drink machines with our canes) So all I'm saying is that, even with propper training, there are still inconveniences associated with blindness. I suppose you could say that makes us nominally not equal from a utilitarian standpoint but really, that's just silly. As far as practical life is concerned, I think propper training levels the playing field and, in the context of equality meaning ability to work on the same level as the sighted world, makes us pretty much equal. Ionly say "pretty much" because there are still inconveniences that come with blindness, like the example I gave, which the general populus doesn't have to face. I'm aware that each person, whether blind or sighted or smart or talented or whatever, needs training and opporutunity to succeed. I'm also aware that each "equal" person has individual inconveniences and annoyances to get past-all I'm saying is the inconveniences and annoyances that come with blindness come in adition to whatever other personal inconveniences a blind person has, so, if we're being technical and stupid, that makes us not equal from the standpoint of productivity because we have more potential hinderences. However, with the right training, I say those hinderences can't hold us back, even though they may be annoying and get in the way, training allows us to achieve on whatever level we want so, although we aren't "equal" from a technical standpoint, (and I'm still talking about productivity potential, not intrinsic value), those inequalities become nominal rather than debilitating. Just my thoughts, Kirt On 5/9/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > I think a lot while doing dishes too. All those noises are very stimulating, > aren't they? And if your soap smells good then it's even better :)! > On May 8, 2011, at 4:57 PM, Jedi wrote: > >> I tend to think a lot in the shower, too. Same with doing dishes. >> >> Respectfully Submitted >> >> Original message: >>> Or in the shower? Some of my best philosophical writing got its start in >>> the >>> shower. >> >>> Mike >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>> Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 8:06 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College >> >>> Lol, yes. Why is it that everything comes to you when you are in bed? >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Jedi" >>> To: >>> Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 7:34 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College >> >> >>>> Yeah, I'd say so. But I was thinking a while ago and realized that there >>>> are loads of cases where training is required in order to function, not >>>> just blindness. I can't remember what specific examples I thought of at >>>> the time, but I'm sure they'll hit me at some God-forsaken hour of the >>>> night. >> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> JEdi >> >>>> Original message: >>>>> Jedi, >>>>> Maybe it'll makemore sense if I say it this way. I wasn't refering >>>>> to a person's intrinsic value. I should've said we can't compete on >>>>> an equal level by default. I'm going to invert a statement you've >>>>> heard a billion times. Without propper training and opportunity, >>>>> blindness is a great deal more than a mere nuisence, and is, in fact, >>>>> a very significant limitation. Would you agree? >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> Kirt >> >>>>> On 5/7/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>>> I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time back in >>>>>> 2004. >>>>>> I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was always >>>>>> playing >>>>>> outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the time and >>>>>> we >>>>>> were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. Actually, when >>>>>> they >>>>>> were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide dog, >>>>>> but >>>>>> Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog walking too >>>>>> fast >>>>>> :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is still >>>>>> working >>>>>> wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog they >>>>>> assigned >>>>>> me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the advantage >>>>>> of >>>>>> instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from for each >>>>>> person. >> >>>>>> IC >>>>>> On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: >> >>>>>>> I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him and >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind of >>>>>>> guy >>>>>>> who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good kid. >> >>>>>>> I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It makes >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible >>>>>>> Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. >> >>>>>>> Respectfully, >>>>>>> Jedi >> >>>>>>> Original message: >>>>>>>> What do you guys think of this? >>>>>>>> http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo >>> bile.net >> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>> .com >> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>> il.com >> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo >>> bile.net >> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecab >>> le.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Mon May 9 16:24:59 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 10:24:59 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College In-Reply-To: References: <20110508205756.25386.31813@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> Message-ID: Jedi, I just realized, if you're being all gramatical and stuff, my last post totally contradicts itself. (and has so many punctuation and spelling problems...but let's not go there, ok? :)) First I said it's silly for people to think we're "nominally not equal from a utilitarian standpoint" and, at the end of my messafge, I said training makes inequalities "nominal rather than debilitating." I shouldn't have said "nominally not equal from a Utilitarian standpoint"-I should've said "not equal from a Utilitarian standpoint." In any case, I think training totally allows any blind person to get past nominal inequalities and do any average job as well as the average person doing it. That's what the NFB is all about, to me-getting people the propper training, making sure the menial inconveniences of blindness don't hold us back under the law, and instilling us with the confidence that we are capable of making blindness a small inconvenience (a small inequality from a Utilitarian point of view) and doing whatever we choose as well as we choose to do it. Hope that clarifies, Kirt On 5/9/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Jedi, > I never said we aren't equal after training-I think we are, for all > intents and purposes. That being said, blindness is still an > inconvenience after any sort of training I saw a well-trained, totally > respectable leader in the NFB, who I'm sure you know by name, take a > big group in to a vending machine because he thought that's where the > door was. Of course he fixed his mistake, but it still set us back a > minute or so. And I can't really think of many better trained or more > "equal" blind people than this gentleman, for whom I have the utmost > respect. Fact is, that's a mistake a sighted person probably wouldn't > have made. (or, at least, a sighted person would've figured out we > were going the wrong way quite a while before we actually touched the > drink machines with our canes) So all I'm saying is that, even with > propper training, there are still inconveniences associated with > blindness. I suppose you could say that makes us nominally not equal > from a utilitarian standpoint but really, that's just silly. As far > as practical life is concerned, I think propper training levels the > playing field and, in the context of equality meaning ability to work > on the same level as the sighted world, makes us pretty much equal. > Ionly say "pretty much" because there are still inconveniences that > come with blindness, like the example I gave, which the general > populus doesn't have to face. I'm aware that each person, whether > blind or sighted or smart or talented or whatever, needs training and > opporutunity to succeed. I'm also aware that each "equal" person has > individual inconveniences and annoyances to get past-all I'm saying is > the inconveniences and annoyances that come with blindness come in > adition to whatever other personal inconveniences a blind person has, > so, if we're being technical and stupid, that makes us not equal from > the standpoint of productivity because we have more potential > hinderences. However, with the right training, I say those > hinderences can't hold us back, even though they may be annoying and > get in the way, training allows us to achieve on whatever level we > want so, although we aren't "equal" from a technical standpoint, (and > I'm still talking about productivity potential, not intrinsic value), > those inequalities become nominal rather than debilitating. > Just my thoughts, > Kirt > > On 5/9/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> I think a lot while doing dishes too. All those noises are very >> stimulating, >> aren't they? And if your soap smells good then it's even better :)! >> On May 8, 2011, at 4:57 PM, Jedi wrote: >> >>> I tend to think a lot in the shower, too. Same with doing dishes. >>> >>> Respectfully Submitted >>> >>> Original message: >>>> Or in the shower? Some of my best philosophical writing got its start >>>> in >>>> the >>>> shower. >>> >>>> Mike >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>>> Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 8:06 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College >>> >>>> Lol, yes. Why is it that everything comes to you when you are in bed? >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Jedi" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 7:34 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] An Article about another Student at Myy College >>> >>> >>>>> Yeah, I'd say so. But I was thinking a while ago and realized that >>>>> there >>>>> are loads of cases where training is required in order to function, >>>>> not >>>>> just blindness. I can't remember what specific examples I thought of >>>>> at >>>>> the time, but I'm sure they'll hit me at some God-forsaken hour of the >>>>> night. >>> >>>>> Respectfully, >>>>> JEdi >>> >>>>> Original message: >>>>>> Jedi, >>>>>> Maybe it'll makemore sense if I say it this way. I wasn't refering >>>>>> to a person's intrinsic value. I should've said we can't compete on >>>>>> an equal level by default. I'm going to invert a statement you've >>>>>> heard a billion times. Without propper training and opportunity, >>>>>> blindness is a great deal more than a mere nuisence, and is, in fact, >>>>>> a very significant limitation. Would you agree? >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> Kirt >>> >>>>>> On 5/7/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>>>> I think I know him too. We got our guide dogs at the same time back >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> 2004. >>>>>>> I remember Matt really loved baseball at the time, and he was always >>>>>>> playing >>>>>>> outside with his dad. I couldn't really speak English at the time >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> were very young, so I don't think we got to talk much. Actually, >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> were matching dogs with owners he got assigned my current guide dog, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> Matt walked too slow for the dog, or maybe it was the dog walking >>>>>>> too >>>>>>> fast >>>>>>> :). But the fact is that I ended up with that dog, which is still >>>>>>> working >>>>>>> wonderfully! I was always walking a little faster than the dog they >>>>>>> assigned >>>>>>> me at first, so it worked out very well. I guess that's the >>>>>>> advantage >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> instructors having a huge pool of trained dogs to choose from for >>>>>>> each >>>>>>> person. >>> >>>>>>> IC >>>>>>> On May 6, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Jedi wrote: >>> >>>>>>>> I believe Matt Cooper participated in Youth Slam 2007. I met him >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> quite impressed with him just because he was a down-to-earth kind >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> guy >>>>>>>> who didn't toot his own horn to much. He was an all-around good >>>>>>>> kid. >>> >>>>>>>> I really liked the title the school gives to its DSS office. It >>>>>>>> makes >>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>> much sense and isn't euphemistic at all. "Office for Accessible >>>>>>>> Education." I think I might suggest that to my school. >>> >>>>>>>> Respectfully, >>>>>>>> Jedi >>> >>>>>>>> Original message: >>>>>>>>> What do you guys think of this? >>>>>>>>> http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/04/seeing-it-through/ >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo >>>> bile.net >>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>>>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> >>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>>> .com >>> >>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>> il.com >>> >>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo >>>> bile.net >>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> >>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecab >>>> le.com >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > From dandrews at visi.com Mon May 9 17:07:21 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Mon, 09 May 2011 12:07:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Reminder: Seminars@Hadley Presents: Braille Exchange Message-ID: >Seminars at Hadley Presents: Braille Exchange > >Date: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 > >Time: 11:00 AM CDT, 16:00 GMT > >You've all heard of a cookie exchange, a recipe exchange and even >the stock exchange. How about a braille exchange? Whether you're new >to braille, a veteran or just thinking about learning, you're sure >to come away with some new ideas and thoughts. Learn fun and >interesting ways to put your braille to work for you. >Join Seminars at Hadley and share your thoughts and ideas with Hadley >faculty Susan Fisher and Sharon Howerton as well as a host of Hadley students. > >This 60 minute open discussion seminar will be moderated by Hadley >Outreach Coordinator Billy Brookshire. Come ready to join the discussion! > >Space in this seminar is limited. Please only register if you know >you are available to attend so that others are not closed out. To >register for this seminar, follow this link: >http://hadley.edu/5_c_seminarAtHadley.asp > >This message was sent to Dandrews at visi.com from: >The Hadley School for the Blind | 700 Elm St. | Winnetka, IL 60093 From agrima at nbp.org Mon May 9 17:54:11 2011 From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 13:54:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Graduation Gift Ideas from NBP! Message-ID: <00cb01cc0e72$1aec34d0$50c49e70$@org> Terrific Graduation Gift Ideas! YOUNGER GRADS "Oh, The Places You'll Go!" $17.00, print/braille picture book Our most popular graduation gift, courtesy of Dr. Seuss! http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/PLACES.html "Of Thee I Sing" $17.99, print/braille picture book President Obama's first children's book is a moving tribute to thirteen inspirational, groundbreaking Americans, including Jackie Robinson, Billie Holiday, George Washington. http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/THEESING.html OUTGOING GRADS "Sites Unseen: Traveling the World without Sight" $19.95, in braille, eBraille, DAISY text-to-speech audio, and accessible PDF Give someone the world and how to navigate it. Wendy David covers every aspect of traveling independently as a blind person by plane, train, boat... camel? http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/TRAVEL.html "Internet Your Way to a New Job" $10.95, in braille or eBraille Teaches a grad how to use social networking sites to find a job. http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/JOBONLINE.html ASTUTE GRADS "Monday Morning Quotations" $9.00, in spiral-bound braille Fifty-two unique quotations - one for each week - from folks as varied as Babe Ruth, the Dalai Lama, Albert Einstein, Steve Jobs, and Oscar Wilde! http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/QUOTES2011.html "Tao Te Ching" $10.95, in braille (1 vol.) Powerful poems that distill centuries of wisdom. http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/TAO.html Syndicated Columnists Weekly $24 for 52 issues Provocative editorial columns from major newspapers. (Subscriptions make great gifts!) http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/SCW-1YR.html Our Special Magazine $15 for six issues Written and edited especially for blind women covering career issues, fashion, parenting, cooking, handicrafts, travel, fiction, and health. http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/OS.html DECORATIVE MAGNETS Slip an inspirational print/braille magnet into a graduation card! $4.95 each (with free shipping) "Be the change you want to see in the world." - Gandhi http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/MAG-GANDHI.html "Do one thing every day that scares you." - Eleanor Roosevelt http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/MAG-ROOSE.html "What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us." - Emerson http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/MAG-EMERSON.html "Good friends are like stars. You don't always see them, but you know they're always there!" - Old Saying" http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/MAG-STARS.html CELEBRATING BRAILLE Braille "Love" pendants Dark copper, 1.25" x .25" pendant on a 16-inch waxed cotton cord: $25 plus shipping http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/PENDANT-LOVE.html Bright copper, 1.25" x .25" pendant on 20-inch bright solid copper ball chain: $32 plus shipping http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/PENDANT-LOVE-BRIGHT.html "Braille Opens Doors" keychain: $5.00 http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/LB-KEY.html Louis Braille note cards $7.99, (10 4.25" x 5" cards & envelopes in a sturdy box) http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/LB-NOTE.html ****** To order, send payment to: NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 520. Or order any of our books online at http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html . From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon May 9 19:51:15 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 09 May 2011 15:51:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] gmail and Outlook 2003 problem Message-ID: <4dc845b8.0d7bdc0a.625d.3aac@mx.google.com> Hi, Serena. I don't know about the error in Outlook, but I get the same dialogue box sometimes when I'm in some Web sites (the NFB site included) on my Braille-Note. Weird! Why is it hard for you to use Gmail online with JAWS? Here's how I do it: go to the start menu by pressing the Windows key (to the left of alt) and press p for the programs submenu, then i for Internet Explorer. When it's done connecting, it will take you to your homepage. I would recommend changing your home page to the Gmail Web site, if you haven't done so already. If Gmail isn't your homepage, hit alt d for the address bar. Then type in www.gmail.com. I wouldn't try typing in mail.google.com, as I think that way is kind of confusing. When you hit Enter after typing in the address, your page will load, and it will automatically put you in the form field that asks for your username. Type that in (it's the same as your email address, including the @gmail.com part. Once finished typing in the username, press tab. The next form field will be the Password form field. Type in your password and hit Tab again. You will hear sort of a popping sound. That just means you're out of the form field. The next thing JAWS will announce is "stay signed in check box not checked." If you're on your home computer, I would suggest checking this box by hitting Space so you don't have to type that information in every time you get on the Web site to check your email. If you're on any other computer, don't check the box. That way other people using the same computer won't go into your email without your permission. After you've checked (or left unchecked) the check box, hit Tab again. The next item is the Sign In button. Hit space on this button. (Keep in mind if you check the stay signed in check box, you won't have to go through this whole process the next time you go into your email. It will then place you automatically in your Inbox.) From there, the Inbox will load and, when done, JAWS will say Gmail- Inbox. When you get into your Inbox, your emails will appear in a table, assuming that you're viewing Gmail in Basic HTML view. Hit t for table and it will put you at the top of your email table. Please email me off list at: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com if you need any more help. If needed, I can also give you my cell number (off list of course) and we can do it together. Hope this helps! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serena Cucco" Thank you, Patrick! Can you tell that to some of the leadership in all these organizations, even ours? * Smile! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Johnson" Mike: Because in an organization of thousands of people, you can't make generalizations about the whole organization from what you know about certain people in that organization, even if that person(s) is/are in a leadership role in that organization. For example, ACB can't make any real generalisations (although they do) about all fifty thousand members of the NFB based on views (or interpretations of views) from certain people in the NFB, even if that person or people are leaders in the NFB (Dr. Maurer, Dr. Jernigan, a state affiliate leader, etc.) Likewise, we can't make assumptions about the tens of thousands of ACB members from the views of certain people in the ACB. That's exactly what happened to me, and why I posted the "what is Federationism" question. As I had said in a prior post, I had always been a reluctant Federationists because I wasn't sure if the extrexe views I was hearing out of some NFB members (and leaders at that) represented the * entire * organization. All fifty thousand of them! I did a little research and also asked my fellow listers, and decided that those views didn't represent the idea of Federationism itself, and I decided I liked the philosophy and joined the Federation. Does this make sense? Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" Hello! My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications and Journalism. At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which was suggested by my Placement officer. Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best option for a blind student? I also would like to know which is the best option academically speaking. Thank you for attending this message. Best, -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. From kat.bottner at gmail.com Mon May 9 22:51:56 2011 From: kat.bottner at gmail.com (Kat Bottner) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 18:51:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12821B62C7FC40E38D88B2F56CDBFE84@KatPC> HeyAdriana, I've heard that NIU is a great school for people with disabilities, my sister happens to be there currectly getting her masters, and she is very pleased with the staff there. I'm not sure about the other schools that you mentioned,but I do know a few blind people who are currently at NIU besides my sister and they say that love the staff there and the fields of study etc. I know that NIU has a few blind staff there as well, but then again, I'm not sure if the blind professers are only in the fields of study having to deal with teaching the blind. I hope this helps, and my sister is on this list, so hopefully she will respond to this topic and maybe she can give you some advice about NIU. Take Care, Kat -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ADRIANA PULIDO Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 6:01 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question Hello! My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications and Journalism. At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which was suggested by my Placement officer. Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best option for a blind student? I also would like to know which is the best option academically speaking. Thank you for attending this message. Best, -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kat.bottner%40gmail. com From marsha.drenth at gmail.com Mon May 9 22:57:39 2011 From: marsha.drenth at gmail.com (Marsha Drenth) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 18:57:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Kirt, Seeing eye program In-Reply-To: References: <3101D7B542594751BDC93FD5F64EF338@MarthaPC><852C1790-B3A0-48D9-9F6E-E0077288B6B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: Kirt, I am a seeing eye grad, there program is 4 weeks for new students. Not 6 weeks. 4 weeks or 28 days. A great resource is the NFB's NAGDU list, I know there are lots of people on here who have guides. But NAGDU is a dedicated list just about guides. Marsha -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 1:56 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs Greg, Seeing eye, the one I'm leaning towards and would probably choose if I decided to get a dog, requires 6 weeks. But even 4 weeks is easiest in the summer. I suppose I could wait until after I'm done at CCB (assuming rehab goes for it), then see what sort of free time opens up later. Arielle, Thanks. I'll certainly talk to Julie. Best regards, Kirt On 5/8/11, Greg Aikens wrote: > Kurt, > Do some dog guide schools require a 6 week program? The one I attended and > the others I checked out only had 4 week programs for first time dog users. > > -Greg > On May 8, 2011, at 9:37 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >> To all, >> Thanks for the thoughts and info. Honestly, I'd prefer to get a dog >> after CCB but, the thing is, it's not often that a six week block of >> time conveniently opens up...and I happen to have that kind of time >> this summer. So, if I'm going to get a dog within the next year or >> so, soon is probably the best time...I know it's not ideal, I know it >> would probably be better if I did it the other way around, but I just >> wanted to get peoples' thoughts because I'm considering the idea. I >> appreciate all of you giving me your honest opinions because I've not >> yet made up my mind and any info I get, especially from people >> familiar with the process, helps. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/8/11, Martha Harris wrote: >>> Hi Kirt, >>> I attended BLIND, Inc. last year with my lab Dee. I'm not sure if my info >>> is >>> right, but I think at CCB you are allowed to have the dog for four hours >>> and >>> the cane for the other four. At BLIND, Inc. I was allowed to work her to >>> and >>> from the center as well as at lunch and the breaks, but she was crated >>> during classes. If you get a dog before you attend training, I'd suggest >>> practicing leaving your dog alone where you live now, because it will >>> help >>> when the dog is separated from you. For the first day or two, she whined >>> sometimes, but she got used to the routine. Before I went, I was strongly >>> considering not going to an NFB center because of the dog policy. I was >>> afraid my dog would lose her skills and not be useful to me anymore. That >>> did not happen. Working in the city was a great environment for her. As >>> long >>> as you go places after school, the dog can get enough work. We always had >>> to >>> go grocery shopping or to the bank, or we spent time going to dinner, >>> hiking, whatever activity you find enjoyable, and you have the dog all >>> weekend. If you are there during convention time, you can work your guide >>> there as well. What other questions do you have about guide dogs at NFB >>> centers? >>> Also, when it is your time, like when you travel and are not going to >>> convention, center activities, or staying in the town where the center >>> is, I >>> think you can use whatever cane you want. On one of the breaks from >>> training, I flew to Pennsylvania to see friends, and I worked my guide >>> dog >>> and had a telescoping cane in my bag. Oh, a tip for training, it is >>> always a >>> good idea to carry a telescoping or folding cane because you never know >>> when >>> your straight cane will break. Mine broke when we did a center activity >>> going to the Minnesota state fair, and it is no fun to be stranded. >>> >>> HTH, >>> Martha >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 5:22 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> >>>> Dear list, >>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/latinanewschic%40gma il.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai l.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6107 (20110509) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6108 (20110509) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6108 (20110509) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon May 9 23:06:14 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 09 May 2011 19:06:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindtlk] A few questions about NVDA Message-ID: <4dc8736c.a64ee50a.5837.ffffd44b@mx.google.com> Kirt, I forwarded your NVDA questions to the Blind Talk list. This is in response to that. Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note ---- Original Message ------ From: "Nikki Wunderlich" References: <3101D7B542594751BDC93FD5F64EF338@MarthaPC> <852C1790-B3A0-48D9-9F6E-E0077288B6B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: Typically, schools are about 4 weeks or 28 days, with some hovering around the two-three week range, and others inbetween. Agreed, nagdu is good for more detailed info, but nabs has quite a few folks who are experts here, and might be good for starters as well On 5/9/11, Marsha Drenth wrote: > Kirt, > > I am a seeing eye grad, there program is 4 weeks for new students. Not 6 > weeks. 4 weeks or 28 days. A great resource is the NFB's NAGDU list, I know > there are lots of people on here who have guides. But NAGDU is a dedicated > list just about guides. > > Marsha > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 1:56 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > > Greg, > Seeing eye, the one I'm leaning towards and would probably choose if > I decided to get a dog, requires 6 weeks. But even 4 weeks is easiest > in the summer. I suppose I could wait until after I'm done at CCB > (assuming rehab goes for it), then see what sort of free time opens up > later. > Arielle, > Thanks. I'll certainly talk to Julie. > Best regards, > Kirt > > On 5/8/11, Greg Aikens wrote: >> Kurt, >> Do some dog guide schools require a 6 week program? The one I attended > and >> the others I checked out only had 4 week programs for first time dog > users. >> >> -Greg >> On May 8, 2011, at 9:37 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >>> To all, >>> Thanks for the thoughts and info. Honestly, I'd prefer to get a dog >>> after CCB but, the thing is, it's not often that a six week block of >>> time conveniently opens up...and I happen to have that kind of time >>> this summer. So, if I'm going to get a dog within the next year or >>> so, soon is probably the best time...I know it's not ideal, I know it >>> would probably be better if I did it the other way around, but I just >>> wanted to get peoples' thoughts because I'm considering the idea. I >>> appreciate all of you giving me your honest opinions because I've not >>> yet made up my mind and any info I get, especially from people >>> familiar with the process, helps. >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/8/11, Martha Harris wrote: >>>> Hi Kirt, >>>> I attended BLIND, Inc. last year with my lab Dee. I'm not sure if my > info >>>> is >>>> right, but I think at CCB you are allowed to have the dog for four hours >>>> and >>>> the cane for the other four. At BLIND, Inc. I was allowed to work her to >>>> and >>>> from the center as well as at lunch and the breaks, but she was crated >>>> during classes. If you get a dog before you attend training, I'd suggest >>>> practicing leaving your dog alone where you live now, because it will >>>> help >>>> when the dog is separated from you. For the first day or two, she whined >>>> sometimes, but she got used to the routine. Before I went, I was > strongly >>>> considering not going to an NFB center because of the dog policy. I was >>>> afraid my dog would lose her skills and not be useful to me anymore. > That >>>> did not happen. Working in the city was a great environment for her. As >>>> long >>>> as you go places after school, the dog can get enough work. We always > had >>>> to >>>> go grocery shopping or to the bank, or we spent time going to dinner, >>>> hiking, whatever activity you find enjoyable, and you have the dog all >>>> weekend. If you are there during convention time, you can work your > guide >>>> there as well. What other questions do you have about guide dogs at NFB >>>> centers? >>>> Also, when it is your time, like when you travel and are not going to >>>> convention, center activities, or staying in the town where the center >>>> is, I >>>> think you can use whatever cane you want. On one of the breaks from >>>> training, I flew to Pennsylvania to see friends, and I worked my guide >>>> dog >>>> and had a telescoping cane in my bag. Oh, a tip for training, it is >>>> always a >>>> good idea to carry a telescoping or folding cane because you never know >>>> when >>>> your straight cane will break. Mine broke when we did a center activity >>>> going to the Minnesota state fair, and it is no fun to be stranded. >>>> >>>> HTH, >>>> Martha >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 5:22 PM >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>> >>>>> Dear list, >>>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/latinanewschic%40gma > il.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma > il.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma > il.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai > l.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 6107 (20110509) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 6108 (20110509) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 6108 (20110509) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From adrimpc80 at gmail.com Tue May 10 00:19:15 2011 From: adrimpc80 at gmail.com (ADRIANA PULIDO) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 19:19:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: <12821B62C7FC40E38D88B2F56CDBFE84@KatPC> References: <12821B62C7FC40E38D88B2F56CDBFE84@KatPC> Message-ID: Thank you kat! 2011/5/9, Kat Bottner : > HeyAdriana, > I've heard that NIU is a great school for people with disabilities, my > sister happens to be there currectly getting her masters, and she is very > pleased with the staff there. > I'm not sure about the other schools that you mentioned,but I do know a few > blind people who are currently at NIU besides my sister and they say that > love the staff there and the fields of study etc. > I know that NIU has a few blind staff there as well, but then again, I'm not > sure if the blind professers are only in the fields of study having to deal > with teaching the blind. I hope this helps, and my sister is on this list, > so hopefully she will respond to this topic and maybe she can give you some > advice about NIU. > > Take Care, > Kat > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of ADRIANA PULIDO > Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 6:01 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question > > Hello! > > My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from > Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications > and Journalism. > At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my > admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University > of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, > Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which > was suggested by my Placement officer. > > Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best > option for a blind student? > I also would like to know which is the best option academically speaking. > > Thank you for attending this > message. > > > Best, > > > > -- > Adriana Pulido > Filóloga y músico de la Universidad > Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kat.bottner%40gmail. > com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrimpc80%40gmail.com > -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue May 10 01:43:08 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 19:43:08 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindtlk] A few questions about NVDA In-Reply-To: <4dc8736c.a64ee50a.5837.ffffd44b@mx.google.com> References: <4dc8736c.a64ee50a.5837.ffffd44b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Dear all, Thanks for the info. I think I'll give it a try. On 5/9/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Kirt, > > I forwarded your NVDA questions to the Blind Talk list. This is > in response to that. > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my Braille-Note > > ---- Original Message ------ > From: "Nikki Wunderlich" Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] [nabs-l] A few questions about NVDA > Date sent: Mon, 9 May 2011 10:03:15 -0500 > > I go back and forth between jaws and NVDA. They're similar in > the fact that > they're both screen readers, and that you can have them start > when your > computer starts. You can also use either of them for email or > word > processing really easily, especially if you use an email program > such as > outlook express or Microsoft office outlook. It's also fairly > easy to use on > the internet, I've not figured out if NVDA has a links list > command like > jaws or not, but like I said it is fairly easy to use. > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM > To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org; Josh Gregory; bnstar1998 at gmail.com > Subject: [Blindtlk] [nabs-l] A few questions about NVDA > > > > ---- Original Message ------ > From: Kirt Manwaring Subject: [nabs-l] A few questions about NVDA > Date sent: Sat, 7 May 2011 14:22:06 -0600 > > Dear Nabs List, > I'm helping a friend learn how to use computers. Due to some > circumstances I don't want to go in to, he's pretty much on his > own > with money and he can afford a decent laptop. He has very little > experience using computers. Since he can't afford jaws, I was > thinking about setting him up with NVDA and getting him started > that > way. Do you guys think that's a viable option for basic computer > use-web browsing, email, word processing and the like? If so, > how > steap is the learning curve. I consider myself an intermediate > to > advanced computer user, I've used jaws for years, but how similar > is > the NVDA interface with jaws? I'd appreciate it if any NVDA > users > could get in touch with me, either on or off-list. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > blindtlk mailing list > blindtlk at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > blindtlk: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/nikki02 > 22%40gmail. > com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindtlk mailing list > blindtlk at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for blindtlk: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dotkid. > nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue May 10 01:58:59 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Mon, 09 May 2011 21:58:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs Message-ID: <20110510015859.18673.216@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Kirt, How on Earth do you figure you'll be able to attend CCB if you are having a hard enough time getting a 6-week window open for guide dog training? You do realize that CCB training takes six to nine months, right? But here's the other thing. You can get a guide dog at just about any time in your life, but annecdotal experience from a lot of folks suggests that major transition points (like from high school to college or from college to work) are the best times to do blindness training. So yeah, i'd focus on that blindness training first. Just my thoughts. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > To all, > Thanks for the thoughts and info. Honestly, I'd prefer to get a dog > after CCB but, the thing is, it's not often that a six week block of > time conveniently opens up...and I happen to have that kind of time > this summer. So, if I'm going to get a dog within the next year or > so, soon is probably the best time...I know it's not ideal, I know it > would probably be better if I did it the other way around, but I just > wanted to get peoples' thoughts because I'm considering the idea. I > appreciate all of you giving me your honest opinions because I've not > yet made up my mind and any info I get, especially from people > familiar with the process, helps. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > On 5/8/11, Martha Harris wrote: >> Hi Kirt, >> I attended BLIND, Inc. last year with my lab Dee. I'm not sure if my info is >> right, but I think at CCB you are allowed to have the dog for four hours and >> the cane for the other four. At BLIND, Inc. I was allowed to work her to and >> from the center as well as at lunch and the breaks, but she was crated >> during classes. If you get a dog before you attend training, I'd suggest >> practicing leaving your dog alone where you live now, because it will help >> when the dog is separated from you. For the first day or two, she whined >> sometimes, but she got used to the routine. Before I went, I was strongly >> considering not going to an NFB center because of the dog policy. I was >> afraid my dog would lose her skills and not be useful to me anymore. That >> did not happen. Working in the city was a great environment for her. As long >> as you go places after school, the dog can get enough work. We always had to >> go grocery shopping or to the bank, or we spent time going to dinner, >> hiking, whatever activity you find enjoyable, and you have the dog all >> weekend. If you are there during convention time, you can work your guide >> there as well. What other questions do you have about guide dogs at NFB >> centers? >> Also, when it is your time, like when you travel and are not going to >> convention, center activities, or staying in the town where the center is, I >> think you can use whatever cane you want. On one of the breaks from >> training, I flew to Pennsylvania to see friends, and I worked my guide dog >> and had a telescoping cane in my bag. Oh, a tip for training, it is always a >> good idea to carry a telescoping or folding cane because you never know when >> your straight cane will break. Mine broke when we did a center activity >> going to the Minnesota state fair, and it is no fun to be stranded. >> HTH, >> Martha >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 5:22 PM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> Dear list, >>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/latinanewschic%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue May 10 02:01:44 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Mon, 09 May 2011 22:01:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs Message-ID: <20110510020144.18974.98600@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> at the LCB, they require that you use the NFB straight cane for all on and off hours while in training. But when you put a dog in the mix, they ask you to use the straight cane if you plan on using a cane more than a dog. If you must use a cane while using a dog (i.e. for varification or something), they probably want you using the telescoping cane because it has more of the properties that make the straight hollow fiberglass cane such a great tool than do the conventional folding canes. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Kirt, > When on your own time you can use the cane of your choice; for classes and > center activities they want the NFB straight cane. > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > Amy, Nicole and all, > If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple > months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new > friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time > which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, > however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a > center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you > travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I > mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over > the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there > be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for > the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you > know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone > care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you > guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that > would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make > sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >> hello kurt, >> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >> your >> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions to >> this topic. >> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >> hugs, >> amy >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kirt Manwaring >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> Dear list, >> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue May 10 02:21:52 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Mon, 09 May 2011 22:21:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question Message-ID: <20110510022152.18672.56077@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Adriana, There is no such thing as "the best university program out there for blind people." At least, not in the context you're in. The fact is that you should choose a university you're genuinely interested in. The blindness stuff can be worked out wherever you are. The only concern that might be valid as a blind person is transportation. You want a university that's close to things or that has good transport so you can go places. But beyond that, the world is your apple and I suggest you have a bite. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hello! > My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from > Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications > and Journalism. > At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my > admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University > of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, > Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which > was suggested by my Placement officer. > Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best > option for a blind student? > I also would like to know which is the best option academically speaking. > Thank you for attending this message. > Best, > -- > Adriana Pulido > Filóloga y músico de la Universidad > Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue May 10 02:25:14 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 20:25:14 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: <20110510020144.18974.98600@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> References: <20110510020144.18974.98600@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Jedi, I've already blocked time off from school for CCb-I'm totally aware of the time commitments involved. And I see your point. Sincerely, Kirt On 5/9/11, Jedi wrote: > at the LCB, they require that you use the NFB straight cane for all on > and off hours while in training. But when you put a dog in the mix, > they ask you to use the straight cane if you plan on using a cane more > than a dog. If you must use a cane while using a dog (i.e. for > varification or something), they probably want you using the > telescoping cane because it has more of the properties that make the > straight hollow fiberglass cane such a great tool than do the > conventional folding canes. > > Respectfully Submitted > > Original message: >> Kirt, >> When on your own time you can use the cane of your choice; for classes and >> center activities they want the NFB straight cane. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > >> Amy, Nicole and all, >> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt > >> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>> hello kurt, > >>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>> your >>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>> to >>> this topic. > >>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. > > >>> hugs, >>> amy > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > >>> Dear list, >>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue May 10 02:29:56 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 20:29:56 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: References: <20110510020144.18974.98600@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Jedi, Thanks-that's exactly the kind of info I needed. I'll talk to Julie to see what specific CCB policy is like. Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/9/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Jedi, > I've already blocked time off from school for CCb-I'm totally aware > of the time commitments involved. And I see your point. > Sincerely, > Kirt > > On 5/9/11, Jedi wrote: >> at the LCB, they require that you use the NFB straight cane for all on >> and off hours while in training. But when you put a dog in the mix, >> they ask you to use the straight cane if you plan on using a cane more >> than a dog. If you must use a cane while using a dog (i.e. for >> varification or something), they probably want you using the >> telescoping cane because it has more of the properties that make the >> straight hollow fiberglass cane such a great tool than do the >> conventional folding canes. >> >> Respectfully Submitted >> >> Original message: >>> Kirt, >>> When on your own time you can use the cane of your choice; for classes >>> and >>> center activities they want the NFB straight cane. >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >>> Amy, Nicole and all, >>> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >>> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >>> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >>> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >>> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >>> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >>> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >>> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >>> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >>> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >>> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >>> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >>> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >>> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >>> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >>> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >> >>> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>>> hello kurt, >> >>>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>>> your >>>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>>> to >>>> this topic. >> >>>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >> >> >>>> hugs, >>>> amy >> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >>>> Dear list, >>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Tue May 10 02:36:25 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 19:36:25 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs References: <20110510020144.18974.98600@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: <9820B08AEE744ED893C3CD59C7767A7B@stanford.edu> Unless you are in a situation with work, school, or something else in which you know that you will be using your cane more than your dog, I do not think that it is fair to ask someone if he/she is going to use a cane more than the dog. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jedi" To: Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 7:01 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > at the LCB, they require that you use the NFB straight cane for all on and > off hours while in training. But when you put a dog in the mix, they ask > you to use the straight cane if you plan on using a cane more than a dog. > If you must use a cane while using a dog (i.e. for varification or > something), they probably want you using the telescoping cane because it > has more of the properties that make the straight hollow fiberglass cane > such a great tool than do the conventional folding canes. > > Respectfully Submitted > > Original message: >> Kirt, >> When on your own time you can use the cane of your choice; for classes >> and >> center activities they want the NFB straight cane. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > >> Amy, Nicole and all, >> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt > >> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>> hello kurt, > >>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>> your >>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>> to >>> this topic. > >>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. > > >>> hugs, >>> amy > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > >>> Dear list, >>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue May 10 02:40:39 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 20:40:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: <9820B08AEE744ED893C3CD59C7767A7B@stanford.edu> References: <20110510020144.18974.98600@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <9820B08AEE744ED893C3CD59C7767A7B@stanford.edu> Message-ID: Oh no, here we go.. *pulls out some popcorn and gets ready to enjoy the show* :) On 5/9/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > Unless you are in a situation with work, school, or something else in which > you know that you will be using your cane more than your dog, I do not think > that it is fair to ask someone if he/she is going to use a cane more than > the dog. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jedi" > To: > Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 7:01 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > > >> at the LCB, they require that you use the NFB straight cane for all on and >> >> off hours while in training. But when you put a dog in the mix, they ask >> you to use the straight cane if you plan on using a cane more than a dog. >> If you must use a cane while using a dog (i.e. for varification or >> something), they probably want you using the telescoping cane because it >> has more of the properties that make the straight hollow fiberglass cane >> such a great tool than do the conventional folding canes. >> >> Respectfully Submitted >> >> Original message: >>> Kirt, >>> When on your own time you can use the cane of your choice; for classes >>> and >>> center activities they want the NFB straight cane. >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >>> Amy, Nicole and all, >>> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >>> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >>> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >>> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >>> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >>> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >>> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >>> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >>> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >>> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >>> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >>> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >>> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >>> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >>> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >>> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >> >>> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>>> hello kurt, >> >>>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>>> your >>>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>>> to >>>> this topic. >> >>>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >> >> >>>> hugs, >>>> amy >> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >>>> Dear list, >>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue May 10 03:03:03 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 23:03:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: References: <20110510020144.18974.98600@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal><9820B08AEE744ED893C3CD59C7767A7B@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <7F8DE24F9036477C83B7775D34905261@OwnerPC> Kirt, Sounds like the LCB seems a bit restrictive about dog use. I think of the three centers Colorado would be most blind friendly. But as others have said, call the centers and ask. Remember if you have a dog you want to work it enough outside school so it keeps its training and gets the proper amount of exercise. You want to ensure you are around the dog working enough to not disrupt the bond between you and the dog or the dog loses its training. I have not been to a training center and I am a cane user. But I have heard from more than one source that Colorado is more dog friendly. Gedi said they prefer you to use the NFB straight cane during school and off hours, so sounds like that leaves little room for a dog. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 10:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs Oh no, here we go.. *pulls out some popcorn and gets ready to enjoy the show* :) On 5/9/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > Unless you are in a situation with work, school, or something else in > which > you know that you will be using your cane more than your dog, I do not > think > that it is fair to ask someone if he/she is going to use a cane more than > the dog. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jedi" > To: > Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 7:01 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > > >> at the LCB, they require that you use the NFB straight cane for all on >> and >> >> off hours while in training. But when you put a dog in the mix, they ask >> you to use the straight cane if you plan on using a cane more than a dog. >> If you must use a cane while using a dog (i.e. for varification or >> something), they probably want you using the telescoping cane because it >> has more of the properties that make the straight hollow fiberglass cane >> such a great tool than do the conventional folding canes. >> >> Respectfully Submitted >> >> Original message: >>> Kirt, >>> When on your own time you can use the cane of your choice; for classes >>> and >>> center activities they want the NFB straight cane. >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >>> Amy, Nicole and all, >>> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >>> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >>> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >>> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >>> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >>> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >>> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >>> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >>> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >>> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >>> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >>> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >>> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >>> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >>> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >>> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >> >>> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>>> hello kurt, >> >>>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>>> your >>>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>>> to >>>> this topic. >> >>>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >> >> >>>> hugs, >>>> amy >> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >>>> Dear list, >>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue May 10 03:03:42 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Mon, 09 May 2011 23:03:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs Message-ID: <20110510030342.18972.48815@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> Let me give you an example then, because this not a question of fairness. Let's say that a student is going to convention but decides that she wants to bring her dog along with her. During off-time activities, most center policies have no problem with her working her dog, so she would probably then decide to carry a collapsable cane for those just in case moments. But during on hours, she may just leave her dog in her room and use her straight cane. but if she really wanted to get him out, she may decide to heel her dog on his leash, but she'll be using her straight cane as is required by the center during these times. I have seen this arrangement before, so don't think it doesn't happen! *grin* Respectfully submitted Original message: > Unless you are in a situation with work, school, or something else in which > you know that you will be using your cane more than your dog, I do not think > that it is fair to ask someone if he/she is going to use a cane more than > the dog. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jedi" > To: > Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 7:01 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> at the LCB, they require that you use the NFB straight cane for all on and >> off hours while in training. But when you put a dog in the mix, they ask >> you to use the straight cane if you plan on using a cane more than a dog. >> If you must use a cane while using a dog (i.e. for varification or >> something), they probably want you using the telescoping cane because it >> has more of the properties that make the straight hollow fiberglass cane >> such a great tool than do the conventional folding canes. >> Respectfully Submitted >> Original message: >>> Kirt, >>> When on your own time you can use the cane of your choice; for classes >>> and >>> center activities they want the NFB straight cane. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> Amy, Nicole and all, >>> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >>> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >>> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >>> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >>> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >>> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >>> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >>> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >>> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >>> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >>> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >>> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >>> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >>> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >>> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >>> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>>> hello kurt, >>>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>>> your >>>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>>> to >>>> this topic. >>>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >>>> hugs, >>>> amy >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>> Dear list, >>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue May 10 03:06:05 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Mon, 09 May 2011 23:06:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs Message-ID: <20110510030605.18971.49232@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> No, that is not what I said. I said that LCB requires that one uses the straight cane on hours for sure. But if one chooses to use the cane during off hours, then the straight cane should be used as it is with all cane-using students. However, if the student decides to use the dog during off-hours, they may. In these cases, it is probably best (if one chooses to carry a cane anyway) to use the NFB telescoping cane because it has most of the characteristics of the NFB cane that makes it the cane of choice at these centers. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Kirt, > Sounds like the LCB seems a bit restrictive about dog use. I think of the > three centers Colorado would be most blind friendly. But as others have > said, call the centers and ask. > Remember if you have a dog you want to work it enough outside school so it > keeps its training and gets the proper amount of exercise. You want to > ensure you are around the dog working enough to not disrupt the bond between > you and the dog or the dog loses its training. > I have not been to a training center and I am a cane user. But I have heard > from more than one source that Colorado is more dog friendly. > Gedi said they prefer you to use the NFB straight cane during school and > off hours, so sounds like that leaves little room for a dog. > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 10:40 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > Oh no, here we go.. *pulls out some popcorn and gets ready to enjoy > the show* :) > On 5/9/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: >> Unless you are in a situation with work, school, or something else in >> which >> you know that you will be using your cane more than your dog, I do not >> think >> that it is fair to ask someone if he/she is going to use a cane more than >> the dog. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jedi" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 7:01 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> at the LCB, they require that you use the NFB straight cane for all on >>> and >>> off hours while in training. But when you put a dog in the mix, they ask >>> you to use the straight cane if you plan on using a cane more than a dog. >>> If you must use a cane while using a dog (i.e. for varification or >>> something), they probably want you using the telescoping cane because it >>> has more of the properties that make the straight hollow fiberglass cane >>> such a great tool than do the conventional folding canes. >>> Respectfully Submitted >>> Original message: >>>> Kirt, >>>> When on your own time you can use the cane of your choice; for classes >>>> and >>>> center activities they want the NFB straight cane. >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>> Amy, Nicole and all, >>>> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >>>> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >>>> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >>>> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >>>> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >>>> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >>>> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >>>> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >>>> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >>>> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >>>> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >>>> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >>>> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >>>> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >>>> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >>>> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >>>> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>>>> hello kurt, >>>>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>>>> your >>>>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>>>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>>>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>>>> to >>>>> this topic. >>>>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >>>>> hugs, >>>>> amy >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>>> Dear list, >>>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue May 10 03:11:35 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 21:11:35 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: <20110510022152.18672.56077@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> References: <20110510022152.18672.56077@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Jedi, I pretty much agree with you here-although I would add one more consideration to the mix. All disability resource centers are not created equal. Some have the capability to produce braille books, others do not. Some have the ability to scan large textbooks and convert them to suitable computer files while others don't. The reliability and quality of volunteer reader programs can vary considerably from university to university. Adriana, I suggest you do a little research on the disability centers at each of the universities you're considering. Look at their web sites, send them emails-if you can, call them up and see if they can do an over-the-phone appointment to talk about their capabilities and limits. If you need any help finding contact info for the disability centers, I'm sure someone on this list can be of assistance. We're here to share information, after all. Hope that helps, Kirt On 5/9/11, Jedi wrote: > Adriana, > > There is no such thing as "the best university program out there for > blind people." At least, not in the context you're in. The fact is that > you should choose a university you're genuinely interested in. The > blindness stuff can be worked out wherever you are. The only concern > that might be valid as a blind person is transportation. You want a > university that's close to things or that has good transport so you can > go places. But beyond that, the world is your apple and I suggest you > have a bite. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> Hello! > >> My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from >> Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications >> and Journalism. >> At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my >> admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University >> of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, >> Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which >> was suggested by my Placement officer. > >> Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best >> option for a blind student? >> I also would like to know which is the best option academically speaking. > >> Thank you for attending this >> message. > > >> Best, > > > >> -- >> Adriana Pulido >> Filóloga y músico de la Universidad >> Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue May 10 03:18:40 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 23:18:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: <9820B08AEE744ED893C3CD59C7767A7B@stanford.edu> References: <20110510020144.18974.98600@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <9820B08AEE744ED893C3CD59C7767A7B@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <849C8790F50C4FE791C4A519FEF5BF2B@OwnerPC> Nicole, Are you a dog user? -----Original Message----- From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 10:36 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs Unless you are in a situation with work, school, or something else in which you know that you will be using your cane more than your dog, I do not think that it is fair to ask someone if he/she is going to use a cane more than the dog. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jedi" To: Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 7:01 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > at the LCB, they require that you use the NFB straight cane for all on and > off hours while in training. But when you put a dog in the mix, they ask > you to use the straight cane if you plan on using a cane more than a dog. > If you must use a cane while using a dog (i.e. for varification or > something), they probably want you using the telescoping cane because it > has more of the properties that make the straight hollow fiberglass cane > such a great tool than do the conventional folding canes. > > Respectfully Submitted > > Original message: >> Kirt, >> When on your own time you can use the cane of your choice; for classes >> and >> center activities they want the NFB straight cane. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > >> Amy, Nicole and all, >> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt > >> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>> hello kurt, > >>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>> your >>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>> to >>> this topic. > >>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. > > >>> hugs, >>> amy > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > >>> Dear list, >>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Tue May 10 03:23:51 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 20:23:51 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs References: <20110510020144.18974.98600@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal><9820B08AEE744ED893C3CD59C7767A7B@stanford.edu> <849C8790F50C4FE791C4A519FEF5BF2B@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <79E6FEED32A94CA0AFDAE6E7BD8086E2@stanford.edu> Yes. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 8:18 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > Nicole, > Are you a dog user? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 10:36 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > > Unless you are in a situation with work, school, or something else in > which > you know that you will be using your cane more than your dog, I do not > think > that it is fair to ask someone if he/she is going to use a cane more than > the dog. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jedi" > To: > Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 7:01 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > > >> at the LCB, they require that you use the NFB straight cane for all on >> and off hours while in training. But when you put a dog in the mix, they >> ask you to use the straight cane if you plan on using a cane more than a >> dog. If you must use a cane while using a dog (i.e. for varification or >> something), they probably want you using the telescoping cane because it >> has more of the properties that make the straight hollow fiberglass cane >> such a great tool than do the conventional folding canes. >> >> Respectfully Submitted >> >> Original message: >>> Kirt, >>> When on your own time you can use the cane of your choice; for classes >>> and >>> center activities they want the NFB straight cane. >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >>> Amy, Nicole and all, >>> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >>> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >>> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >>> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >>> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >>> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >>> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >>> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >>> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >>> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >>> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >>> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >>> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >>> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >>> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >>> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >> >>> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>>> hello kurt, >> >>>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>>> your >>>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>>> to >>>> this topic. >> >>>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >> >> >>>> hugs, >>>> amy >> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >>>> Dear list, >>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Tue May 10 03:41:44 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 20:41:44 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: <79E6FEED32A94CA0AFDAE6E7BD8086E2@stanford.edu> References: <20110510020144.18974.98600@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <9820B08AEE744ED893C3CD59C7767A7B@stanford.edu> <849C8790F50C4FE791C4A519FEF5BF2B@OwnerPC> <79E6FEED32A94CA0AFDAE6E7BD8086E2@stanford.edu> Message-ID: Would it be much simpler to say that the main idea is to get a solid foundation in cane travel (how to use a cane in all kinds of situations, problem-solving, and the like)? doing this will best allow you to make the best dicision for yourself in regards to if you really want to go the cane or dog guide route (both respectable choices). However you choose to go about this is how you choose to do it, but it's probably key to think about what's the most fair to you and your dog guide, because after all, you and your four-legged friend are a team. *smile* does that make sense? On 5/9/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > Yes. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 8:18 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > > >> Nicole, >> Are you a dog user? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 10:36 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >> Unless you are in a situation with work, school, or something else in >> which >> you know that you will be using your cane more than your dog, I do not >> think >> that it is fair to ask someone if he/she is going to use a cane more than >> the dog. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jedi" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 7:01 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >> >>> at the LCB, they require that you use the NFB straight cane for all on >>> and off hours while in training. But when you put a dog in the mix, they >>> ask you to use the straight cane if you plan on using a cane more than a >>> dog. If you must use a cane while using a dog (i.e. for varification or >>> something), they probably want you using the telescoping cane because it >>> has more of the properties that make the straight hollow fiberglass cane >>> such a great tool than do the conventional folding canes. >>> >>> Respectfully Submitted >>> >>> Original message: >>>> Kirt, >>>> When on your own time you can use the cane of your choice; for classes >>>> and >>>> center activities they want the NFB straight cane. >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> >>>> Amy, Nicole and all, >>>> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >>>> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >>>> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >>>> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >>>> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >>>> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >>>> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >>>> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >>>> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >>>> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >>>> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >>>> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >>>> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >>>> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >>>> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >>>> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >>> >>>> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>>>> hello kurt, >>> >>>>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>>>> your >>>>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>>>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>>>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> this topic. >>> >>>>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >>> >>> >>>>> hugs, >>>>> amy >>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> >>>>> Dear list, >>>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>> Kirt >>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Tue May 10 03:53:33 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 20:53:33 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs References: <20110510020144.18974.98600@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal><9820B08AEE744ED893C3CD59C7767A7B@stanford.edu><849C8790F50C4FE791C4A519FEF5BF2B@OwnerPC><79E6FEED32A94CA0AFDAE6E7BD8086E2@stanford.edu> Message-ID: Yes. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darian Smith" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 8:41 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs Would it be much simpler to say that the main idea is to get a solid foundation in cane travel (how to use a cane in all kinds of situations, problem-solving, and the like)? doing this will best allow you to make the best dicision for yourself in regards to if you really want to go the cane or dog guide route (both respectable choices). However you choose to go about this is how you choose to do it, but it's probably key to think about what's the most fair to you and your dog guide, because after all, you and your four-legged friend are a team. *smile* does that make sense? On 5/9/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > Yes. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 8:18 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > > >> Nicole, >> Are you a dog user? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 10:36 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >> Unless you are in a situation with work, school, or something else in >> which >> you know that you will be using your cane more than your dog, I do not >> think >> that it is fair to ask someone if he/she is going to use a cane more than >> the dog. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jedi" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 7:01 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >> >>> at the LCB, they require that you use the NFB straight cane for all on >>> and off hours while in training. But when you put a dog in the mix, they >>> ask you to use the straight cane if you plan on using a cane more than a >>> dog. If you must use a cane while using a dog (i.e. for varification or >>> something), they probably want you using the telescoping cane because it >>> has more of the properties that make the straight hollow fiberglass cane >>> such a great tool than do the conventional folding canes. >>> >>> Respectfully Submitted >>> >>> Original message: >>>> Kirt, >>>> When on your own time you can use the cane of your choice; for classes >>>> and >>>> center activities they want the NFB straight cane. >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> >>>> Amy, Nicole and all, >>>> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >>>> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >>>> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >>>> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >>>> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >>>> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >>>> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >>>> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >>>> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >>>> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >>>> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >>>> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >>>> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >>>> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >>>> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >>>> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >>> >>>> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>>>> hello kurt, >>> >>>>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>>>> your >>>>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>>>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>>>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and >>>>> suggestions >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> this topic. >>> >>>>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >>> >>> >>>>> hugs, >>>>> amy >>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> >>>>> Dear list, >>>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>> Kirt >>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue May 10 04:08:59 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 22:08:59 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: References: <20110510020144.18974.98600@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <9820B08AEE744ED893C3CD59C7767A7B@stanford.edu> <849C8790F50C4FE791C4A519FEF5BF2B@OwnerPC> <79E6FEED32A94CA0AFDAE6E7BD8086E2@stanford.edu> Message-ID: Darian, That does make sense. And it's a valid, very important point for me to consider. But here are some important factors I also have to weigh: 1. Improving my O&M is one of many reasons I'd have to attend a traiing center. 2. I have the fundamentals of cane travel down pat. (I've been using a cane my whole life) 3. My biggest weakness in O&M is a lack of confidence and experience in urban areas. 4. Although my cane skills are solid, I struggle with walking a straight line across streets-I've had guide dogs recommended to me as a possible solution to the problem by many people, blind and sighted alike, both cane and dog users. 5. Based on past experience, my problem solving skills are mostly solid, although I need work and experience in more varied environments. 6. Even if my cane skills met RJ's standard of perfection, I'd still probably want to get more training in daily living, confidence-building activities like wood shop, advanced technology instruction and braille (I've been reading braille my whole life, I read contracted braille at around 130 words a minute and I'm not good at slate and stylus-plenty to work on there.) So, basically, I want to explore as many options as I can here. If a dog guide could help me do what I need to do, and I have free time this summer I wouldn't have during normal school time, why not take advantage? I could always wait till one more semester is done before I take my nine-month break from school; I guarantee pushing the center back 4 months from myinitial plans won't kill anyone. Assuming I go the dog route, that would give me and Fido some more time to get to know each other. Of course, since my state center is increasingly adopting the NFB training model, there's a chance rehab won't pay for me to go out-of-state when a similar program is available here. Of course, maybe I'll realize a dog isn't the right fit for me and a cane would be better-who knows? If that happens, this is all moot anyhow. I was just looking at this as a possible option-I'm not saying it's what I'm planning on or what I think I should do. Again, thanks everyone for the input, suggestions and constructive discussion. I'm tired-have a great night! Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/9/11, Darian Smith wrote: > Would it be much simpler to say that the main idea is to get a > solid foundation in cane travel (how to use a cane in all kinds of > situations, problem-solving, and the like)? doing this will best > allow you to make the best dicision for yourself in regards to if you > really want to go the cane or dog guide route (both respectable > choices). > However you choose to go about this is how you choose to do it, but > it's probably key to think about what's the most fair to you and your > dog guide, because after all, you and your four-legged friend are a > team. *smile* > does that make sense? > > On 5/9/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: >> Yes. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 8:18 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >> >>> Nicole, >>> Are you a dog user? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 10:36 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> >>> Unless you are in a situation with work, school, or something else in >>> which >>> you know that you will be using your cane more than your dog, I do not >>> think >>> that it is fair to ask someone if he/she is going to use a cane more than >>> the dog. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Jedi" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 7:01 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> >>> >>>> at the LCB, they require that you use the NFB straight cane for all on >>>> and off hours while in training. But when you put a dog in the mix, they >>>> ask you to use the straight cane if you plan on using a cane more than a >>>> dog. If you must use a cane while using a dog (i.e. for varification or >>>> something), they probably want you using the telescoping cane because it >>>> has more of the properties that make the straight hollow fiberglass cane >>>> such a great tool than do the conventional folding canes. >>>> >>>> Respectfully Submitted >>>> >>>> Original message: >>>>> Kirt, >>>>> When on your own time you can use the cane of your choice; for classes >>>>> and >>>>> center activities they want the NFB straight cane. >>>> >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>> >>>>> Amy, Nicole and all, >>>>> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >>>>> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >>>>> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >>>>> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >>>>> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >>>>> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >>>>> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >>>>> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >>>>> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >>>>> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >>>>> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >>>>> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >>>>> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >>>>> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >>>>> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >>>>> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>> Kirt >>>> >>>>> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>>>>> hello kurt, >>>> >>>>>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>>>>> your >>>>>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>>>>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>>>>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and >>>>>> suggestions >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> this topic. >>>> >>>>>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >>>> >>>> >>>>>> hugs, >>>>>> amy >>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>> >>>>>> Dear list, >>>>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>>> Kirt >>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From k7uij at panix.com Tue May 10 04:36:58 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 21:36:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity In-Reply-To: <4dc845bf.0d7bdc0a.625d.3ab2@mx.google.com> References: <4dc845bf.0d7bdc0a.625d.3ab2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <00e101cc0ecb$e6c74230$b455c690$@panix.com> Chris: With respect, in an ideal world, what you say below would make sense. But this isn't an ideal world so, in fact, no, it *doesn't* make sense. Consider: while one shouldn't generalize about the character of the Federation from only a few members -- after all, we're all different -- I dare say that most members subscribe to most aspects of our philosophy else they'd leave the NFB. And even if they *don't* like some aspects of NFB's policies and programs but wish to stay in, they don't express their views in public because they subscribe to the NFB Pledge which says, in effect, that members *actively* promote the philosophy, policies and programs of NFB. Also, although NFB leadership certainly may not share all characteristics of the rank-and-file membership, I say it *does* represent the NFB and its philosophy because (a) it was elected to do so and (b) the policies and programs of the Federation are the result of resolutions passed at NFB national conventions and the NFB constitution says that the national convention is the *supreme* authority of the Federation. Moreover, given that NFB aspires to nothing less than to change society's attitudes about blindness and the blind, it causes reactions from incredulity to outright hostility on the part of the general public and, sadly, often among agency personnel who ostensibly also are trying to help the blind take their places as first-class citizens. And NFB leaders are a symbol of the organization, if only because they speak for it and represent it to the public. That's just the way politics works. If I might be so bold, I invite you to write me off-list to tell me what policies or statements made you uneasy about NFB. I shall try to explain the policies to you or we can agree to disagree. Take care. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 12:51 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity Mike: Because in an organization of thousands of people, you can't make generalizations about the whole organization from what you know about certain people in that organization, even if that person(s) is/are in a leadership role in that organization. For example, ACB can't make any real generalisations (although they do) about all fifty thousand members of the NFB based on views (or interpretations of views) from certain people in the NFB, even if that person or people are leaders in the NFB (Dr. Maurer, Dr. Jernigan, a state affiliate leader, etc.) Likewise, we can't make assumptions about the tens of thousands of ACB members from the views of certain people in the ACB. That's exactly what happened to me, and why I posted the "what is Federationism" question. As I had said in a prior post, I had always been a reluctant Federationists because I wasn't sure if the extrexe views I was hearing out of some NFB members (and leaders at that) represented the * entire * organization. All fifty thousand of them! I did a little research and also asked my fellow listers, and decided that those views didn't represent the idea of Federationism itself, and I decided I liked the philosophy and joined the Federation. Does this make sense? Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" References: <20110510020144.18974.98600@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <9820B08AEE744ED893C3CD59C7767A7B@stanford.edu> <849C8790F50C4FE791C4A519FEF5BF2B@OwnerPC> <79E6FEED32A94CA0AFDAE6E7BD8086E2@stanford.edu> Message-ID: Hi Kirt. I am currently a dog user. Yes, dogs do help the straight line problem. I have that too. It's a serious pain, and I notice it much more when I walk with a cane now that I have a dog. I never noticed the difference before I got a dog. I don't know if that makes sense. Honestly, the training centers sound great. All the reasons you have listed above are good ones for going to the center. I'm also interested in knowing CCB's policy because if you really get to use the dog for part of the day, I think that is fair. I know their concentration at those centers are cane skills, but there are other reasons(like you pointed out) for going to a center than to work on cane skills, and if I am going to use a dog for the majority of my travel, I just feel that what I do in the center should reflect what I will do in real life. I'm not trying to start anything. These are just my thoughts. I may poke around on the CCB's webcite or call to find out myself their policy. Good luck! On 5/9/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Darian, > That does make sense. And it's a valid, very important point for me > to consider. But here are some important factors I also have to > weigh: > 1. Improving my O&M is one of many reasons I'd have to attend a traiing > center. > 2. I have the fundamentals of cane travel down pat. (I've been using > a cane my whole life) > 3. My biggest weakness in O&M is a lack of confidence and experience > in urban areas. > 4. Although my cane skills are solid, I struggle with walking a > straight line across streets-I've had guide dogs recommended to me as > a possible solution to the problem by many people, blind and sighted > alike, both cane and dog users. > 5. Based on past experience, my problem solving skills are mostly > solid, although I need work and experience in more varied > environments. > 6. Even if my cane skills met RJ's standard of perfection, I'd still > probably want to get more training in daily living, > confidence-building activities like wood shop, advanced technology > instruction and braille (I've been reading braille my whole life, I > read contracted braille at around 130 words a minute and I'm not good > at slate and stylus-plenty to work on there.) > So, basically, I want to explore as many options as I can here. If > a dog guide could help me do what I need to do, and I have free time > this summer I wouldn't have during normal school time, why not take > advantage? I could always wait till one more semester is done before > I take my nine-month break from school; I guarantee pushing the center > back 4 months from myinitial plans won't kill anyone. Assuming I go > the dog route, that would give me and Fido some more time to get to > know each other. Of course, since my state center is increasingly > adopting the NFB training model, there's a chance rehab won't pay for > me to go out-of-state when a similar program is available here. Of > course, maybe I'll realize a dog isn't the right fit for me and a cane > would be better-who knows? If that happens, this is all moot anyhow. > I was just looking at this as a possible option-I'm not saying it's > what I'm planning on or what I think I should do. Again, thanks > everyone for the input, suggestions and constructive discussion. I'm > tired-have a great night! > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/9/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> Would it be much simpler to say that the main idea is to get a >> solid foundation in cane travel (how to use a cane in all kinds of >> situations, problem-solving, and the like)? doing this will best >> allow you to make the best dicision for yourself in regards to if you >> really want to go the cane or dog guide route (both respectable >> choices). >> However you choose to go about this is how you choose to do it, but >> it's probably key to think about what's the most fair to you and your >> dog guide, because after all, you and your four-legged friend are a >> team. *smile* >> does that make sense? >> >> On 5/9/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: >>> Yes. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 8:18 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> >>> >>>> Nicole, >>>> Are you a dog user? >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>>> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 10:36 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>> >>>> Unless you are in a situation with work, school, or something else in >>>> which >>>> you know that you will be using your cane more than your dog, I do not >>>> think >>>> that it is fair to ask someone if he/she is going to use a cane more >>>> than >>>> the dog. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Jedi" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 7:01 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>> >>>> >>>>> at the LCB, they require that you use the NFB straight cane for all on >>>>> and off hours while in training. But when you put a dog in the mix, >>>>> they >>>>> ask you to use the straight cane if you plan on using a cane more than >>>>> a >>>>> dog. If you must use a cane while using a dog (i.e. for varification or >>>>> something), they probably want you using the telescoping cane because >>>>> it >>>>> has more of the properties that make the straight hollow fiberglass >>>>> cane >>>>> such a great tool than do the conventional folding canes. >>>>> >>>>> Respectfully Submitted >>>>> >>>>> Original message: >>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>> When on your own time you can use the cane of your choice; for classes >>>>>> and >>>>>> center activities they want the NFB straight cane. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>>> >>>>>> Amy, Nicole and all, >>>>>> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >>>>>> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >>>>>> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >>>>>> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >>>>>> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >>>>>> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >>>>>> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >>>>>> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >>>>>> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >>>>>> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >>>>>> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >>>>>> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >>>>>> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >>>>>> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >>>>>> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >>>>>> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >>>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>>> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>>>>>> hello kurt, >>>>> >>>>>>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can >>>>>>> bring >>>>>>> your >>>>>>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of >>>>>>> your >>>>>>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>>>>>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and >>>>>>> suggestions >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> this topic. >>>>> >>>>>>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> hugs, >>>>>>> amy >>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>>> >>>>>>> Dear list, >>>>>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>>>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>>>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>>>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>>>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>>>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>>>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> — Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding Eyes for the Blind "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From ignasicambra at gmail.com Tue May 10 05:19:36 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 01:19:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: References: <20110510020144.18974.98600@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <9820B08AEE744ED893C3CD59C7767A7B@stanford.edu> <849C8790F50C4FE791C4A519FEF5BF2B@OwnerPC> <79E6FEED32A94CA0AFDAE6E7BD8086E2@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <49397785-87D2-44D5-BBB8-1B6AAEF7FCE8@gmail.com> The question is: what if you already have a good foundation in cane travel? What if you learned by yourself or somewhere other than the training center' Are you just not supposed to go at all? I would definitely not consider a training center for o&m reasons because I feel like I am good enough at it. On the other hand, maybe there are other things in training programs that I could be interested in. If I ever go, I simply don't want to be bothered with having to leave my dog somewhere for a number of hours etc. On May 9, 2011, at 11:41 PM, Darian Smith wrote: > Would it be much simpler to say that the main idea is to get a > solid foundation in cane travel (how to use a cane in all kinds of > situations, problem-solving, and the like)? doing this will best > allow you to make the best dicision for yourself in regards to if you > really want to go the cane or dog guide route (both respectable > choices). > However you choose to go about this is how you choose to do it, but > it's probably key to think about what's the most fair to you and your > dog guide, because after all, you and your four-legged friend are a > team. *smile* > does that make sense? > > On 5/9/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: >> Yes. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 8:18 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >> >>> Nicole, >>> Are you a dog user? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 10:36 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> >>> Unless you are in a situation with work, school, or something else in >>> which >>> you know that you will be using your cane more than your dog, I do not >>> think >>> that it is fair to ask someone if he/she is going to use a cane more than >>> the dog. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Jedi" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 7:01 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> >>> >>>> at the LCB, they require that you use the NFB straight cane for all on >>>> and off hours while in training. But when you put a dog in the mix, they >>>> ask you to use the straight cane if you plan on using a cane more than a >>>> dog. If you must use a cane while using a dog (i.e. for varification or >>>> something), they probably want you using the telescoping cane because it >>>> has more of the properties that make the straight hollow fiberglass cane >>>> such a great tool than do the conventional folding canes. >>>> >>>> Respectfully Submitted >>>> >>>> Original message: >>>>> Kirt, >>>>> When on your own time you can use the cane of your choice; for classes >>>>> and >>>>> center activities they want the NFB straight cane. >>>> >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>> >>>>> Amy, Nicole and all, >>>>> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >>>>> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >>>>> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >>>>> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >>>>> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >>>>> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >>>>> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >>>>> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >>>>> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >>>>> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >>>>> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >>>>> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >>>>> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >>>>> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >>>>> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >>>>> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>> Kirt >>>> >>>>> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>>>>> hello kurt, >>>> >>>>>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>>>>> your >>>>>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>>>>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>>>>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> this topic. >>>> >>>>>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >>>> >>>> >>>>>> hugs, >>>>>> amy >>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>> >>>>>> Dear list, >>>>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>>> Kirt >>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From adrimpc80 at gmail.com Tue May 10 15:59:32 2011 From: adrimpc80 at gmail.com (ADRIANA PULIDO) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 10:59:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: References: <20110510022152.18672.56077@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Ok. Thanks a lot! 2011/5/9, Kirt Manwaring : > Jedi, > I pretty much agree with you here-although I would add one more > consideration to the mix. All disability resource centers are not > created equal. Some have the capability to produce braille books, > others do not. Some have the ability to scan large textbooks and > convert them to suitable computer files while others don't. The > reliability and quality of volunteer reader programs can vary > considerably from university to university. > Adriana, > I suggest you do a little research on the disability centers at each > of the universities you're considering. Look at their web sites, send > them emails-if you can, call them up and see if they can do an > over-the-phone appointment to talk about their capabilities and > limits. If you need any help finding contact info for the disability > centers, I'm sure someone on this list can be of assistance. We're > here to share information, after all. > Hope that helps, > Kirt > > On 5/9/11, Jedi wrote: >> Adriana, >> >> There is no such thing as "the best university program out there for >> blind people." At least, not in the context you're in. The fact is that >> you should choose a university you're genuinely interested in. The >> blindness stuff can be worked out wherever you are. The only concern >> that might be valid as a blind person is transportation. You want a >> university that's close to things or that has good transport so you can >> go places. But beyond that, the world is your apple and I suggest you >> have a bite. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Original message: >>> Hello! >> >>> My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from >>> Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications >>> and Journalism. >>> At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my >>> admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University >>> of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, >>> Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which >>> was suggested by my Placement officer. >> >>> Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best >>> option for a blind student? >>> I also would like to know which is the best option academically speaking. >> >>> Thank you for attending this >>> message. >> >> >>> Best, >> >> >> >>> -- >>> Adriana Pulido >>> Filóloga y músico de la Universidad >>> Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrimpc80%40gmail.com > -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. From adrimpc80 at gmail.com Tue May 10 16:52:11 2011 From: adrimpc80 at gmail.com (ADRIANA PULIDO) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 11:52:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: References: <20110510022152.18672.56077@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: High everyone! I just have an additional question : Regarding transportation , which of these places is the best? Gainesville, Tampa, Philadelphia, Fayetteville, or DeKalb? Thank you again! Adriana P. 2011/5/10, ADRIANA PULIDO : > Ok. Thanks a lot! > > 2011/5/9, Kirt Manwaring : >> Jedi, >> I pretty much agree with you here-although I would add one more >> consideration to the mix. All disability resource centers are not >> created equal. Some have the capability to produce braille books, >> others do not. Some have the ability to scan large textbooks and >> convert them to suitable computer files while others don't. The >> reliability and quality of volunteer reader programs can vary >> considerably from university to university. >> Adriana, >> I suggest you do a little research on the disability centers at each >> of the universities you're considering. Look at their web sites, send >> them emails-if you can, call them up and see if they can do an >> over-the-phone appointment to talk about their capabilities and >> limits. If you need any help finding contact info for the disability >> centers, I'm sure someone on this list can be of assistance. We're >> here to share information, after all. >> Hope that helps, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/9/11, Jedi wrote: >>> Adriana, >>> >>> There is no such thing as "the best university program out there for >>> blind people." At least, not in the context you're in. The fact is that >>> you should choose a university you're genuinely interested in. The >>> blindness stuff can be worked out wherever you are. The only concern >>> that might be valid as a blind person is transportation. You want a >>> university that's close to things or that has good transport so you can >>> go places. But beyond that, the world is your apple and I suggest you >>> have a bite. >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> >>> Original message: >>>> Hello! >>> >>>> My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from >>>> Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications >>>> and Journalism. >>>> At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my >>>> admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University >>>> of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, >>>> Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which >>>> was suggested by my Placement officer. >>> >>>> Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best >>>> option for a blind student? >>>> I also would like to know which is the best option academically >>>> speaking. >>> >>>> Thank you for attending this >>>> message. >>> >>> >>>> Best, >>> >>> >>> >>>> -- >>>> Adriana Pulido >>>> Filóloga y músico de la Universidad >>>> Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrimpc80%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Adriana Pulido > Filóloga y músico de la Universidad > Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. > -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Tue May 10 17:13:08 2011 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 13:13:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question References: <20110510022152.18672.56077@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: <829AF202078C4FF6A57D2B2390884555@hometwxakonvzn> Adrana, I understand Ganesville is good. I live in Florida my self. If you use skype, I might be able to give you some pointers. My skype name is: smallistbaby1979 Robert James Sandefur ----- Original Message ----- From: "ADRIANA PULIDO" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 12:52 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question High everyone! I just have an additional question : Regarding transportation , which of these places is the best? Gainesville, Tampa, Philadelphia, Fayetteville, or DeKalb? Thank you again! Adriana P. 2011/5/10, ADRIANA PULIDO : > Ok. Thanks a lot! > > 2011/5/9, Kirt Manwaring : >> Jedi, >> I pretty much agree with you here-although I would add one more >> consideration to the mix. All disability resource centers are not >> created equal. Some have the capability to produce braille books, >> others do not. Some have the ability to scan large textbooks and >> convert them to suitable computer files while others don't. The >> reliability and quality of volunteer reader programs can vary >> considerably from university to university. >> Adriana, >> I suggest you do a little research on the disability centers at each >> of the universities you're considering. Look at their web sites, send >> them emails-if you can, call them up and see if they can do an >> over-the-phone appointment to talk about their capabilities and >> limits. If you need any help finding contact info for the disability >> centers, I'm sure someone on this list can be of assistance. We're >> here to share information, after all. >> Hope that helps, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/9/11, Jedi wrote: >>> Adriana, >>> >>> There is no such thing as "the best university program out there for >>> blind people." At least, not in the context you're in. The fact is that >>> you should choose a university you're genuinely interested in. The >>> blindness stuff can be worked out wherever you are. The only concern >>> that might be valid as a blind person is transportation. You want a >>> university that's close to things or that has good transport so you can >>> go places. But beyond that, the world is your apple and I suggest you >>> have a bite. >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> >>> Original message: >>>> Hello! >>> >>>> My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from >>>> Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications >>>> and Journalism. >>>> At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my >>>> admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University >>>> of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, >>>> Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which >>>> was suggested by my Placement officer. >>> >>>> Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best >>>> option for a blind student? >>>> I also would like to know which is the best option academically >>>> speaking. >>> >>>> Thank you for attending this >>>> message. >>> >>> >>>> Best, >>> >>> >>> >>>> -- >>>> Adriana Pulido >>>> Filóloga y músico de la Universidad >>>> Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrimpc80%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Adriana Pulido > Filóloga y músico de la Universidad > Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. > -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Tue May 10 19:29:11 2011 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 14:29:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question Message-ID: <003e01cc0f48$8adb46b0$a091d410$@com> Adriana, As you might imagine, that is a difficult question to answer. Without being able to speak to somebody who has lived in all five cities for long enough to become well-acquainted with their transit systems, all you can really get are relatively uninformed and/or biased opinions. If I had to take a stab at it, I would say that you would likely find the most transportation options in Philadelphia, as it is the largest city of those you mentioned. You would probably be best off spending some time online looking at the various options in each area. You may also want to look at your particular living situation and location. A walkable location with a lot of shops, restaurants, and other facilities around can mitigate the damage of a subpar transit system. Really the best answer is to determine what is important to you (subway, buses, walkability, plentiful taxis, paratransit?) and do some research. Congrats on the Fulbright though. That's a great award! Take care, Sean From marsha.drenth at gmail.com Tue May 10 20:37:14 2011 From: marsha.drenth at gmail.com (Marsha Drenth) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 16:37:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: References: <20110510022152.18672.56077@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: <94881E38B1364C3F8677F35033B8A8C0@Cptr233> Adrianna, I can only speak of Philadelphia. We have many many types of transportation here. If your in a urban area like where Temple is located you can walk every where. But if you do need to go some place you have the choice of cabs, buses, train (regional rail( subway, elevated rail, trolley. I again can only speak of Temple University, as I will be transferring in the spring of 2011 myself. From what I have heard of other blind people here in the state who have attended Temple the disability services are good, not perfect, but good. State services are not great, but that really depends on the counselor you get. Downtown Philly has lots to do, places to go, lots of places to eat, and lots of things to do. Temple is an excellent university, and I have heard of no one who did not like it. Also, as a added bonus, there is a NFB chapter in Philadelphia you could join, that is very close to Temple. I live about an hour north of Philadelphia, and travel into the city quite a bit. I have lived here for about a year and half. In comparison, Philly ranks very high in my list, as I have lived in other cities like Dallas and Baltimore. Philly has much better transportation than those cities. Good luck in your decision, Marsha -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ADRIANA PULIDO Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 12:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question High everyone! I just have an additional question : Regarding transportation , which of these places is the best? Gainesville, Tampa, Philadelphia, Fayetteville, or DeKalb? Thank you again! Adriana P. 2011/5/10, ADRIANA PULIDO : > Ok. Thanks a lot! > > 2011/5/9, Kirt Manwaring : >> Jedi, >> I pretty much agree with you here-although I would add one more >> consideration to the mix. All disability resource centers are not >> created equal. Some have the capability to produce braille books, >> others do not. Some have the ability to scan large textbooks and >> convert them to suitable computer files while others don't. The >> reliability and quality of volunteer reader programs can vary >> considerably from university to university. >> Adriana, >> I suggest you do a little research on the disability centers at each >> of the universities you're considering. Look at their web sites, send >> them emails-if you can, call them up and see if they can do an >> over-the-phone appointment to talk about their capabilities and >> limits. If you need any help finding contact info for the disability >> centers, I'm sure someone on this list can be of assistance. We're >> here to share information, after all. >> Hope that helps, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/9/11, Jedi wrote: >>> Adriana, >>> >>> There is no such thing as "the best university program out there for >>> blind people." At least, not in the context you're in. The fact is that >>> you should choose a university you're genuinely interested in. The >>> blindness stuff can be worked out wherever you are. The only concern >>> that might be valid as a blind person is transportation. You want a >>> university that's close to things or that has good transport so you can >>> go places. But beyond that, the world is your apple and I suggest you >>> have a bite. >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> >>> Original message: >>>> Hello! >>> >>>> My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from >>>> Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications >>>> and Journalism. >>>> At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my >>>> admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University >>>> of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, >>>> Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which >>>> was suggested by my Placement officer. >>> >>>> Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best >>>> option for a blind student? >>>> I also would like to know which is the best option academically >>>> speaking. >>> >>>> Thank you for attending this >>>> message. >>> >>> >>>> Best, >>> >>> >>> >>>> -- >>>> Adriana Pulido >>>> Filóloga y músico de la Universidad >>>> Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo bile.net >>> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrimpc80%40gmail.co m >> > > > -- > Adriana Pulido > Filóloga y músico de la Universidad > Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. > -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai l.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6110 (20110510) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6110 (20110510) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From marsha.drenth at gmail.com Tue May 10 20:46:41 2011 From: marsha.drenth at gmail.com (Marsha Drenth) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 16:46:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: <003e01cc0f48$8adb46b0$a091d410$@com> References: <003e01cc0f48$8adb46b0$a091d410$@com> Message-ID: <3E5629E120E248EAB610EFD3DC1BBD12@Cptr233> Adriana, Good point Shawn. Ok with that said, Philly does have a extensive transportation system, as I stated in a prevous message. If your interested in getting to know more about the transportation in Philly and the surrounding area, the system is called SEPTA. It stands for South Eastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority. Long name I know, that is why we call it SEPTA. Their website is a little awkward, but if you're a good JAWS user you can navigate it well. SEPTA also has a number you can call for help at: 215-580-7800. They will help with trip planning, explain your visually impaired and need to know specifics. And furthermore, if you want advice from others, besides me who live in Philly, you can call the NFB of Pennsylvania affiliate president, who can tell you anything you want to know about the area at: 215-988-0888. You can also find his info on the NFB.org website. His name is Jim. Tell him, I referred you, and that you're a student looking to possibily attend Temple. He will help in any way he can. HTH Marsha -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sean Whalen Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 3:29 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question Adriana, As you might imagine, that is a difficult question to answer. Without being able to speak to somebody who has lived in all five cities for long enough to become well-acquainted with their transit systems, all you can really get are relatively uninformed and/or biased opinions. If I had to take a stab at it, I would say that you would likely find the most transportation options in Philadelphia, as it is the largest city of those you mentioned. You would probably be best off spending some time online looking at the various options in each area. You may also want to look at your particular living situation and location. A walkable location with a lot of shops, restaurants, and other facilities around can mitigate the damage of a subpar transit system. Really the best answer is to determine what is important to you (subway, buses, walkability, plentiful taxis, paratransit?) and do some research. Congrats on the Fulbright though. That's a great award! Take care, Sean _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai l.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6110 (20110510) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6110 (20110510) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Tue May 10 20:52:06 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 16:52:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: References: <20110510022152.18672.56077@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: <46278499-8476-4FCC-A168-8686A1FE3D85@gmail.com> I'd say Philadelphia. Although I don't know much of FL I don't think they have a lot of public transportation. Jorge On May 10, 2011, at 12:52 PM, ADRIANA PULIDO wrote: > High everyone! > > I just have an additional question : > Regarding transportation , which of these places is the best? > Gainesville, Tampa, Philadelphia, Fayetteville, or DeKalb? > > Thank you again! > > Adriana P. > > 2011/5/10, ADRIANA PULIDO : >> Ok. Thanks a lot! >> >> 2011/5/9, Kirt Manwaring : >>> Jedi, >>> I pretty much agree with you here-although I would add one more >>> consideration to the mix. All disability resource centers are not >>> created equal. Some have the capability to produce braille books, >>> others do not. Some have the ability to scan large textbooks and >>> convert them to suitable computer files while others don't. The >>> reliability and quality of volunteer reader programs can vary >>> considerably from university to university. >>> Adriana, >>> I suggest you do a little research on the disability centers at each >>> of the universities you're considering. Look at their web sites, send >>> them emails-if you can, call them up and see if they can do an >>> over-the-phone appointment to talk about their capabilities and >>> limits. If you need any help finding contact info for the disability >>> centers, I'm sure someone on this list can be of assistance. We're >>> here to share information, after all. >>> Hope that helps, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/9/11, Jedi wrote: >>>> Adriana, >>>> >>>> There is no such thing as "the best university program out there for >>>> blind people." At least, not in the context you're in. The fact is that >>>> you should choose a university you're genuinely interested in. The >>>> blindness stuff can be worked out wherever you are. The only concern >>>> that might be valid as a blind person is transportation. You want a >>>> university that's close to things or that has good transport so you can >>>> go places. But beyond that, the world is your apple and I suggest you >>>> have a bite. >>>> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi >>>> >>>> Original message: >>>>> Hello! >>>> >>>>> My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from >>>>> Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications >>>>> and Journalism. >>>>> At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my >>>>> admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University >>>>> of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, >>>>> Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which >>>>> was suggested by my Placement officer. >>>> >>>>> Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best >>>>> option for a blind student? >>>>> I also would like to know which is the best option academically >>>>> speaking. >>>> >>>>> Thank you for attending this >>>>> message. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Best, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Adriana Pulido >>>>> Filóloga y músico de la Universidad >>>>> Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrimpc80%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Adriana Pulido >> Filóloga y músico de la Universidad >> Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. >> > > > -- > Adriana Pulido > Filóloga y músico de la Universidad > Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue May 10 21:06:04 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 17:06:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Adriana, Good luck with your decission. Services vary. Although it should not determine where you go, I suggest talking to the DSS office and seeing what they offer. All schools should make testing accomodations via readers or computers for you. All schools should get you accessible texts via audio or the publisher; the audio you can get yourself via your own account. But you need DSS to request the electronic text from the publisher because they want your dss counselor to fill it out and have proof of disability and proof you bought the book. If they do not provide these services, if I were you I'd fight to get them at the school because its your right to have them. Next about transportation. The best thing to do is your own research. But as others said, I heard Philidephia has an extensive transit system. They have subways, buses and it is accessible via Amtrack train. In that city you can walk many places too. My brother lived in Tampa briefly; its smaller. Tampa has sparcer transit, but you may be able to walk where you need. What Fayetville are you referencing? If Fayeteville, NC, it has a bus system I think, but nothing else except for cabs. I'm glad you are getting into grad school for this. Good luck. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: ADRIANA PULIDO Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 6:00 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question Hello! My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications and Journalism. At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which was suggested by my Placement officer. Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best option for a blind student? I also would like to know which is the best option academically speaking. Thank you for attending this message. Best, -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue May 10 21:43:59 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 17:43:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board Message-ID: Hi all, I thought Blackboard was supposed to be more accessible. I wish they would make headings for major topics. Also I noticed the discussion board is not accessible. When you attempt to create a new thread and post a comment, jaws will not let you into the body of the message to post. I am not sure how you read other student comments either. Are you supposed to click on their name or the discussion thread’s name? Are you able to read other comments fine? This annoying since I could not post my homework online this semester like everyone else. Ashley From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Tue May 10 21:53:37 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 17:53:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87B4B70E-36BD-485A-995B-5D6C8B07C2AE@gmail.com> Keep in mind accessibility only improoved for I bbelieve either version 8 or 9 On May 10, 2011, at 5:43 PM, wrote: > Hi all, > I thought Blackboard was supposed to be more accessible. I wish they would make headings for major topics. > Also I noticed the discussion board is not accessible. When you attempt to create a new thread and post a comment, jaws will not let you into the body of the message to post. I am not sure how you read other student comments either. Are you supposed to click on their name or the discussion thread’s name? Are you able to read other comments fine? > > This annoying since I could not post my homework online this semester like everyone else. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From trillian551 at gmail.com Tue May 10 21:54:41 2011 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 17:54:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: References: <20110510022152.18672.56077@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Hi Adriana! My name is Mary Fernandez and I am from Cartagena. Congratulations on the Fulbright, that is a truly incredible opportunity! As far as universities, I think that Temple is a very respected institution. Furthermore, I've been to Philadelphia quite often since I live in New Jersey and it's fairly close. It's a very lively place, and the transportation as always fairly easy to use. I'm not familiar with the Temple area however, but it looks like some other people on here are. Let me know if you ahve any questions, and and if you do decide to go to either Temple or Florida, let me know. I attend school in Atlanta so Florida is pretty close and I would love to meet you. Feel free to contact me with any questions. Buena suerte amiga, y felicidads. Sincerely, Mary Fernandez On 5/10/11, ADRIANA PULIDO wrote: > Ok. Thanks a lot! > > 2011/5/9, Kirt Manwaring : >> Jedi, >> I pretty much agree with you here-although I would add one more >> consideration to the mix. All disability resource centers are not >> created equal. Some have the capability to produce braille books, >> others do not. Some have the ability to scan large textbooks and >> convert them to suitable computer files while others don't. The >> reliability and quality of volunteer reader programs can vary >> considerably from university to university. >> Adriana, >> I suggest you do a little research on the disability centers at each >> of the universities you're considering. Look at their web sites, send >> them emails-if you can, call them up and see if they can do an >> over-the-phone appointment to talk about their capabilities and >> limits. If you need any help finding contact info for the disability >> centers, I'm sure someone on this list can be of assistance. We're >> here to share information, after all. >> Hope that helps, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/9/11, Jedi wrote: >>> Adriana, >>> >>> There is no such thing as "the best university program out there for >>> blind people." At least, not in the context you're in. The fact is that >>> you should choose a university you're genuinely interested in. The >>> blindness stuff can be worked out wherever you are. The only concern >>> that might be valid as a blind person is transportation. You want a >>> university that's close to things or that has good transport so you can >>> go places. But beyond that, the world is your apple and I suggest you >>> have a bite. >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> >>> Original message: >>>> Hello! >>> >>>> My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from >>>> Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications >>>> and Journalism. >>>> At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my >>>> admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University >>>> of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, >>>> Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which >>>> was suggested by my Placement officer. >>> >>>> Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best >>>> option for a blind student? >>>> I also would like to know which is the best option academically >>>> speaking. >>> >>>> Thank you for attending this >>>> message. >>> >>> >>>> Best, >>> >>> >>> >>>> -- >>>> Adriana Pulido >>>> Filóloga y músico de la Universidad >>>> Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrimpc80%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Adriana Pulido > Filóloga y músico de la Universidad > Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory University 2012 P.O. Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. 30322 Phone: 732-857-7004 "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it." Terry Pratchett From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue May 10 22:42:46 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 18:42:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question Message-ID: <20110510224246.24733.53442@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> I've decided that, for me on the whole, disability service offices are highly over-rated. Usually, I just make my own accessible documents, especially since e-mail is so easy to get at these days. Most instructors are pretty cool with making on-the-fly adaptations for assignments and tests as needed. As for books, I usually just order mine or get my own reader. the only time i tend to use the DSS offices is for those classes where I can't do something for myself. For example, I needed a Braille math text that wasn't printed yet, so I got the DSS office to get me an electronic brf that I read through my notetaker. I used the DSS for science lab readers and a tactile interpreter for ASL classes. But this particular office was one of the better ones. But generally speaking, I just do my own stuff out of the box. So, I guess what I'm saying is that your need for a DSS office will greatly depend on your courses and what you can do for yourself. If your need is low, then DSS offices might not be as concerning to you. But if your need is high, you bet that the DSS office will on the top of your quality control list. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Jedi, > I pretty much agree with you here-although I would add one more > consideration to the mix. All disability resource centers are not > created equal. Some have the capability to produce braille books, > others do not. Some have the ability to scan large textbooks and > convert them to suitable computer files while others don't. The > reliability and quality of volunteer reader programs can vary > considerably from university to university. > Adriana, > I suggest you do a little research on the disability centers at each > of the universities you're considering. Look at their web sites, send > them emails-if you can, call them up and see if they can do an > over-the-phone appointment to talk about their capabilities and > limits. If you need any help finding contact info for the disability > centers, I'm sure someone on this list can be of assistance. We're > here to share information, after all. > Hope that helps, > Kirt > On 5/9/11, Jedi wrote: >> Adriana, >> There is no such thing as "the best university program out there for >> blind people." At least, not in the context you're in. The fact is that >> you should choose a university you're genuinely interested in. The >> blindness stuff can be worked out wherever you are. The only concern >> that might be valid as a blind person is transportation. You want a >> university that's close to things or that has good transport so you can >> go places. But beyond that, the world is your apple and I suggest you >> have a bite. >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> Original message: >>> Hello! >>> My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from >>> Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications >>> and Journalism. >>> At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my >>> admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University >>> of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, >>> Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which >>> was suggested by my Placement officer. >>> Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best >>> option for a blind student? >>> I also would like to know which is the best option academically speaking. >>> Thank you for attending this >>> message. >>> Best, >>> -- >>> Adriana Pulido >>> Filóloga y músico de la Universidad >>> Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue May 10 22:44:50 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 18:44:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board In-Reply-To: <87B4B70E-36BD-485A-995B-5D6C8B07C2AE@gmail.com> References: <87B4B70E-36BD-485A-995B-5D6C8B07C2AE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <79B2DB46A5044C369D4A9919F92C5D15@OwnerPC> I know and they have version 9. -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 5:53 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board Keep in mind accessibility only improoved for I bbelieve either version 8 or 9 On May 10, 2011, at 5:43 PM, wrote: > Hi all, > I thought Blackboard was supposed to be more accessible. I wish they would > make headings for major topics. > Also I noticed the discussion board is not accessible. When you attempt > to create a new thread and post a comment, jaws will not let you into the > body of the message to post. I am not sure how you read other student > comments either. Are you supposed to click on their name or the > discussion thread’s name? Are you able to read other comments fine? > > This annoying since I could not post my homework online this semester like > everyone else. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From adrimpc80 at gmail.com Tue May 10 22:57:49 2011 From: adrimpc80 at gmail.com (ADRIANA PULIDO) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 17:57:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: References: <20110510022152.18672.56077@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Hi Mary! Thank you very much for your interest! I will let you know as soon as I make a decision. Adriana P. 2011/5/10, Mary Fernandez : > Hi Adriana! > My name is Mary Fernandez and I am from Cartagena. Congratulations on > the Fulbright, that is a truly incredible opportunity! As far as > universities, I think that Temple is a very respected institution. > Furthermore, I've been to Philadelphia quite often since I live in New > Jersey and it's fairly close. It's a very lively place, and the > transportation as always fairly easy to use. I'm not familiar with the > Temple area however, but it looks like some other people on here are. > Let me know if you ahve any questions, and and if you do decide to go > to either Temple or Florida, let me know. I attend school in Atlanta > so Florida is pretty close and I would love to meet you. Feel free to > contact me with any questions. Buena suerte amiga, y felicidads. > Sincerely, > Mary Fernandez > > On 5/10/11, ADRIANA PULIDO wrote: >> Ok. Thanks a lot! >> >> 2011/5/9, Kirt Manwaring : >>> Jedi, >>> I pretty much agree with you here-although I would add one more >>> consideration to the mix. All disability resource centers are not >>> created equal. Some have the capability to produce braille books, >>> others do not. Some have the ability to scan large textbooks and >>> convert them to suitable computer files while others don't. The >>> reliability and quality of volunteer reader programs can vary >>> considerably from university to university. >>> Adriana, >>> I suggest you do a little research on the disability centers at each >>> of the universities you're considering. Look at their web sites, send >>> them emails-if you can, call them up and see if they can do an >>> over-the-phone appointment to talk about their capabilities and >>> limits. If you need any help finding contact info for the disability >>> centers, I'm sure someone on this list can be of assistance. We're >>> here to share information, after all. >>> Hope that helps, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/9/11, Jedi wrote: >>>> Adriana, >>>> >>>> There is no such thing as "the best university program out there for >>>> blind people." At least, not in the context you're in. The fact is that >>>> you should choose a university you're genuinely interested in. The >>>> blindness stuff can be worked out wherever you are. The only concern >>>> that might be valid as a blind person is transportation. You want a >>>> university that's close to things or that has good transport so you can >>>> go places. But beyond that, the world is your apple and I suggest you >>>> have a bite. >>>> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi >>>> >>>> Original message: >>>>> Hello! >>>> >>>>> My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from >>>>> Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications >>>>> and Journalism. >>>>> At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my >>>>> admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University >>>>> of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, >>>>> Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which >>>>> was suggested by my Placement officer. >>>> >>>>> Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best >>>>> option for a blind student? >>>>> I also would like to know which is the best option academically >>>>> speaking. >>>> >>>>> Thank you for attending this >>>>> message. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Best, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Adriana Pulido >>>>> Filóloga y músico de la Universidad >>>>> Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrimpc80%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Adriana Pulido >> Filóloga y músico de la Universidad >> Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > President: Georgia Association of Blind Students > Emory University 2012 > P.O. Box 123056 > Atlanta Ga. > 30322 > Phone: 732-857-7004 > > "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much > rather you weren't doing it." > Terry Pratchett > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrimpc80%40gmail.com > -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue May 10 23:08:19 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 19:08:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: <20110510224246.24733.53442@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> References: <20110510224246.24733.53442@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: <05C0D2A4469143D0AE91905501CAEB16@OwnerPC> Gedi, I do my own stuff as much as I can too. For books, I've hired readers as I much prefer that to electronic text anyway; e-text you miss the tables and graphics in the text and my psychology classes had plenty of that. I ordered books as well from RFB. But you got to go through DSS to get an accomodation letter. If you need a notetaker, you have to go through DSS; same for testing accomodations, unless your professor lets you take the test on your laptop or something. But at least at Nova (community college) they do not let you pick your own readers for tests and notetakers. So you are pretty much stuck with them. I think they should provide such accomodations; it should not be our job to pay a notetaker for something like a math class, but students should have that option. Often the notetakers and readers are bad quality and a student would be better off using their own people. But you got to use their readers for tests. When I had my own reader and my DSS counselor found out, she almost got mad because she thought I used her for the exam and I explained I used my college assigned reader. "You have to use our reader/scribes." she said. I explained that the reader helped me prepare for the test by reading material, not take the test. She thought I had used her for the exam because the reader tried to get a room in the counseling center for us to study since the library was full and that is how word got to her. Oh and as for professors emailing handouts, I had a lot of issues this semester. So its not as easy to work with professors as you make it seem, at least for some professors. I tried it on my own. The professor ignored me. Then DSS had to tell him and copied the dean on the email request, and then finally something got done! I guess my point here is that we can do it, but I think its good to form a good relationship with your DSS staff because you never know when you may need them like when I needed them to back me up on following my accomodations to get electronic handouts. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Jedi Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 6:42 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question I've decided that, for me on the whole, disability service offices are highly over-rated. Usually, I just make my own accessible documents, especially since e-mail is so easy to get at these days. Most instructors are pretty cool with making on-the-fly adaptations for assignments and tests as needed. As for books, I usually just order mine or get my own reader. the only time i tend to use the DSS offices is for those classes where I can't do something for myself. For example, I needed a Braille math text that wasn't printed yet, so I got the DSS office to get me an electronic brf that I read through my notetaker. I used the DSS for science lab readers and a tactile interpreter for ASL classes. But this particular office was one of the better ones. But generally speaking, I just do my own stuff out of the box. So, I guess what I'm saying is that your need for a DSS office will greatly depend on your courses and what you can do for yourself. If your need is low, then DSS offices might not be as concerning to you. But if your need is high, you bet that the DSS office will on the top of your quality control list. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Jedi, > I pretty much agree with you here-although I would add one more > consideration to the mix. All disability resource centers are not > created equal. Some have the capability to produce braille books, > others do not. Some have the ability to scan large textbooks and > convert them to suitable computer files while others don't. The > reliability and quality of volunteer reader programs can vary > considerably from university to university. > Adriana, > I suggest you do a little research on the disability centers at each > of the universities you're considering. Look at their web sites, send > them emails-if you can, call them up and see if they can do an > over-the-phone appointment to talk about their capabilities and > limits. If you need any help finding contact info for the disability > centers, I'm sure someone on this list can be of assistance. We're > here to share information, after all. > Hope that helps, > Kirt > On 5/9/11, Jedi wrote: >> Adriana, >> There is no such thing as "the best university program out there for >> blind people." At least, not in the context you're in. The fact is that >> you should choose a university you're genuinely interested in. The >> blindness stuff can be worked out wherever you are. The only concern >> that might be valid as a blind person is transportation. You want a >> university that's close to things or that has good transport so you can >> go places. But beyond that, the world is your apple and I suggest you >> have a bite. >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> Original message: >>> Hello! >>> My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from >>> Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications >>> and Journalism. >>> At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my >>> admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University >>> of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, >>> Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which >>> was suggested by my Placement officer. >>> Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best >>> option for a blind student? >>> I also would like to know which is the best option academically >>> speaking. >>> Thank you for attending this >>> message. >>> Best, >>> -- >>> Adriana Pulido >>> Filóloga y músico de la Universidad >>> Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue May 10 23:21:26 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 19:21:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question Message-ID: <20110510232126.24719.62927@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> That's one reason why I avoid DSS offices if at all possible. DSS offices should work like any other entity serving people with disabilities: they should honor consumer choice. I think it's fair to say that a reader for an exam should not be the same individual who helped you prepare. And if need be, the reader could sign a statement or something. But as a consumer, you should be able to pick your reader because you want to choose a reader/scribe who will reflect your intelligence, not their ability to read the material and relay it to you in a way that makes sense. So in other words, your test should be a reflection of your ability, not your reader's. I've had that problem before and it was damn annoying! Same goes for notetakers. You want someone who will take the notes you want them to take rather than the notes they think they should take. And how else would someone know what to take down unless they've worked for you and know what's important to you? But in my opinion, I really think it's up to the student to take notes for themselves for that very reason: you want notes that emphasize what you're interested in in a way that will make sense to you sometime down the line when you study. A notetaker kind of puts a kink in that system just because the information has to filter through someone else's brain before it gets to yours. The only place where I'd feel all right using a notetaker is for diagrams drawn on a board, but I would tell them that I want them to tactally draw exactly what they see with no interpretation on their part whatsoever. Luckily, technology is making that happen much more easily than it used to. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Gedi, > I do my own stuff as much as I can too. For books, I've hired readers as I > much prefer that to electronic text anyway; e-text you miss the tables and > graphics in the text and my psychology classes had plenty of that. > I ordered books as well from RFB. But you got to go through DSS to get an > accomodation letter. > If you need a notetaker, you have to go through DSS; same for testing > accomodations, unless your professor lets you take the test on your laptop > or something. > But at least at Nova (community college) they do not let you pick your own > readers for tests and notetakers. So you are pretty much stuck with them. I > think they should provide such accomodations; it should not be our job to > pay a notetaker for something like a math class, but students should have > that option. Often the notetakers and readers are bad quality and a student > would be better off using their own people. But you got to use their > readers for tests. When I had my own reader and my DSS counselor found out, > she almost got mad because she thought I used her for the exam and I > explained I used my college assigned reader. "You have to use our > reader/scribes." she said. > I explained that the reader helped me prepare for the test by reading > material, not take the test. She thought I had used her for the exam because > the reader tried to get a room in the counseling center for us to study > since the library was full and that is how word got to her. > Oh and as for professors emailing handouts, I had a lot of issues this > semester. > So its not as easy to work with professors as you make it seem, at least for > some professors. > I tried it on my own. The professor ignored me. Then DSS had to tell him > and copied the dean on the email request, and then finally something got > done! > I guess my point here is that we can do it, but I think its good to form a > good relationship with your DSS staff because you never know when you may > need them like when I needed them to back me up on following my > accomodations to get electronic handouts. > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Jedi > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 6:42 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question > I've decided that, for me on the whole, disability service offices are > highly over-rated. Usually, I just make my own accessible documents, > especially since e-mail is so easy to get at these days. Most > instructors are pretty cool with making on-the-fly adaptations for > assignments and tests as needed. As for books, I usually just order > mine or get my own reader. the only time i tend to use the DSS offices > is for those classes where I can't do something for myself. For > example, I needed a Braille math text that wasn't printed yet, so I got > the DSS office to get me an electronic brf that I read through my > notetaker. I used the DSS for science lab readers and a tactile > interpreter for ASL classes. But this particular office was one of the > better ones. But generally speaking, I just do my own stuff out of the > box. So, I guess what I'm saying is that your need for a DSS office > will greatly depend on your courses and what you can do for yourself. > If your need is low, then DSS offices might not be as concerning to > you. But if your need is high, you bet that the DSS office will on the > top of your quality control list. > Respectfully Submitted > Original message: >> Jedi, >> I pretty much agree with you here-although I would add one more >> consideration to the mix. All disability resource centers are not >> created equal. Some have the capability to produce braille books, >> others do not. Some have the ability to scan large textbooks and >> convert them to suitable computer files while others don't. The >> reliability and quality of volunteer reader programs can vary >> considerably from university to university. >> Adriana, >> I suggest you do a little research on the disability centers at each >> of the universities you're considering. Look at their web sites, send >> them emails-if you can, call them up and see if they can do an >> over-the-phone appointment to talk about their capabilities and >> limits. If you need any help finding contact info for the disability >> centers, I'm sure someone on this list can be of assistance. We're >> here to share information, after all. >> Hope that helps, >> Kirt >> On 5/9/11, Jedi wrote: >>> Adriana, >>> There is no such thing as "the best university program out there for >>> blind people." At least, not in the context you're in. The fact is that >>> you should choose a university you're genuinely interested in. The >>> blindness stuff can be worked out wherever you are. The only concern >>> that might be valid as a blind person is transportation. You want a >>> university that's close to things or that has good transport so you can >>> go places. But beyond that, the world is your apple and I suggest you >>> have a bite. >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> Original message: >>>> Hello! >>>> My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from >>>> Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications >>>> and Journalism. >>>> At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my >>>> admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University >>>> of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, >>>> Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which >>>> was suggested by my Placement officer. >>>> Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best >>>> option for a blind student? >>>> I also would like to know which is the best option academically >>>> speaking. >>>> Thank you for attending this >>>> message. >>>> Best, >>>> -- >>>> Adriana Pulido >>>> Filóloga y músico de la Universidad >>>> Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue May 10 23:28:14 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 19:28:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: <20110510232126.24719.62927@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> References: <20110510232126.24719.62927@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: <2EE03A8AC1F543FB89932F05A931F8C2@OwnerPC> Hi Gedi, I agree; we need consumer choice; we need DSS to do their job-- approve accomodations. I think its fine to have your official memo stating what accomodations you need so professors really know what you need like what is legitimate. But beyond that, you should have the freedom to choose a reader. I felt that the exam tested my ability to work with an untrained reader, not the content. The college reader / scribe was bad; he mumbled and did not read at a consistent good pace. I circumvented that reader issue by politely demanding my exam be brailled, so they did it. I hope I do not get forced to get another bad reader because it affects your ability to do the test. It sucks. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Jedi Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 7:21 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question That's one reason why I avoid DSS offices if at all possible. DSS offices should work like any other entity serving people with disabilities: they should honor consumer choice. I think it's fair to say that a reader for an exam should not be the same individual who helped you prepare. And if need be, the reader could sign a statement or something. But as a consumer, you should be able to pick your reader because you want to choose a reader/scribe who will reflect your intelligence, not their ability to read the material and relay it to you in a way that makes sense. So in other words, your test should be a reflection of your ability, not your reader's. I've had that problem before and it was damn annoying! Same goes for notetakers. You want someone who will take the notes you want them to take rather than the notes they think they should take. And how else would someone know what to take down unless they've worked for you and know what's important to you? But in my opinion, I really think it's up to the student to take notes for themselves for that very reason: you want notes that emphasize what you're interested in in a way that will make sense to you sometime down the line when you study. A notetaker kind of puts a kink in that system just because the information has to filter through someone else's brain before it gets to yours. The only place where I'd feel all right using a notetaker is for diagrams drawn on a board, but I would tell them that I want them to tactally draw exactly what they see with no interpretation on their part whatsoever. Luckily, technology is making that happen much more easily than it used to. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Gedi, > I do my own stuff as much as I can too. For books, I've hired readers as I > much prefer that to electronic text anyway; e-text you miss the tables and > graphics in the text and my psychology classes had plenty of that. > I ordered books as well from RFB. But you got to go through DSS to get an > accomodation letter. > If you need a notetaker, you have to go through DSS; same for testing > accomodations, unless your professor lets you take the test on your laptop > or something. > But at least at Nova (community college) they do not let you pick your > own > readers for tests and notetakers. So you are pretty much stuck with them. > I > think they should provide such accomodations; it should not be our job to > pay a notetaker for something like a math class, but students should have > that option. Often the notetakers and readers are bad quality and a > student > would be better off using their own people. But you got to use their > readers for tests. When I had my own reader and my DSS counselor found > out, > she almost got mad because she thought I used her for the exam and I > explained I used my college assigned reader. "You have to use our > reader/scribes." she said. > I explained that the reader helped me prepare for the test by reading > material, not take the test. She thought I had used her for the exam > because > the reader tried to get a room in the counseling center for us to study > since the library was full and that is how word got to her. > Oh and as for professors emailing handouts, I had a lot of issues this > semester. > So its not as easy to work with professors as you make it seem, at least > for > some professors. > I tried it on my own. The professor ignored me. Then DSS had to tell him > and copied the dean on the email request, and then finally something got > done! > I guess my point here is that we can do it, but I think its good to form a > good relationship with your DSS staff because you never know when you may > need them like when I needed them to back me up on following my > accomodations to get electronic handouts. > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Jedi > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 6:42 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question > I've decided that, for me on the whole, disability service offices are > highly over-rated. Usually, I just make my own accessible documents, > especially since e-mail is so easy to get at these days. Most > instructors are pretty cool with making on-the-fly adaptations for > assignments and tests as needed. As for books, I usually just order > mine or get my own reader. the only time i tend to use the DSS offices > is for those classes where I can't do something for myself. For > example, I needed a Braille math text that wasn't printed yet, so I got > the DSS office to get me an electronic brf that I read through my > notetaker. I used the DSS for science lab readers and a tactile > interpreter for ASL classes. But this particular office was one of the > better ones. But generally speaking, I just do my own stuff out of the > box. So, I guess what I'm saying is that your need for a DSS office > will greatly depend on your courses and what you can do for yourself. > If your need is low, then DSS offices might not be as concerning to > you. But if your need is high, you bet that the DSS office will on the > top of your quality control list. > Respectfully Submitted > Original message: >> Jedi, >> I pretty much agree with you here-although I would add one more >> consideration to the mix. All disability resource centers are not >> created equal. Some have the capability to produce braille books, >> others do not. Some have the ability to scan large textbooks and >> convert them to suitable computer files while others don't. The >> reliability and quality of volunteer reader programs can vary >> considerably from university to university. >> Adriana, >> I suggest you do a little research on the disability centers at each >> of the universities you're considering. Look at their web sites, send >> them emails-if you can, call them up and see if they can do an >> over-the-phone appointment to talk about their capabilities and >> limits. If you need any help finding contact info for the disability >> centers, I'm sure someone on this list can be of assistance. We're >> here to share information, after all. >> Hope that helps, >> Kirt >> On 5/9/11, Jedi wrote: >>> Adriana, >>> There is no such thing as "the best university program out there for >>> blind people." At least, not in the context you're in. The fact is that >>> you should choose a university you're genuinely interested in. The >>> blindness stuff can be worked out wherever you are. The only concern >>> that might be valid as a blind person is transportation. You want a >>> university that's close to things or that has good transport so you can >>> go places. But beyond that, the world is your apple and I suggest you >>> have a bite. >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> Original message: >>>> Hello! >>>> My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from >>>> Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications >>>> and Journalism. >>>> At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my >>>> admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University >>>> of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, >>>> Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which >>>> was suggested by my Placement officer. >>>> Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best >>>> option for a blind student? >>>> I also would like to know which is the best option academically >>>> speaking. >>>> Thank you for attending this >>>> message. >>>> Best, >>>> -- >>>> Adriana Pulido >>>> Filóloga y músico de la Universidad >>>> Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 11 00:16:40 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 18:16:40 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: <2EE03A8AC1F543FB89932F05A931F8C2@OwnerPC> References: <20110510232126.24719.62927@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <2EE03A8AC1F543FB89932F05A931F8C2@OwnerPC> Message-ID: To all, I guess my university's volunteer reader program's exceptional then. I've used them mostly for exams, had to make last-minute schedule changes sometimes and I never had even a minor problem. The readers were all very clear and read exactly how I told them to. Occasionally a reader would think I needed something repeated when really I didn't;but, compared to some of the problems I'm hearing about from you guys, that seems awesome. Is my experience really that unique? Best regards, Kirt On 5/10/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi Gedi, > I agree; we need consumer choice; we need DSS to do their job-- approve > accomodations. I think its fine to have your official memo stating what > accomodations you need so professors really know what you need like what is > legitimate. But beyond that, you should have the freedom to choose a reader. > I felt that the exam tested my ability to work with an untrained reader, not > the content. The college reader / scribe was bad; he mumbled and did not > read at a consistent good pace. I circumvented that reader issue by > politely demanding my exam be brailled, so they did it. > > I hope I do not get forced to get another bad reader because it affects > your ability to do the test. It sucks. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Jedi > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 7:21 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question > > That's one reason why I avoid DSS offices if at all possible. DSS > offices should work like any other entity serving people with > disabilities: they should honor consumer choice. I think it's fair to > say that a reader for an exam should not be the same individual who > helped you prepare. And if need be, the reader could sign a statement > or something. But as a consumer, you should be able to pick your reader > because you want to choose a reader/scribe who will reflect your > intelligence, not their ability to read the material and relay it to > you in a way that makes sense. So in other words, your test should be a > reflection of your ability, not your reader's. I've had that problem > before and it was damn annoying! Same goes for notetakers. You want > someone who will take the notes you want them to take rather than the > notes they think they should take. And how else would someone know what > to take down unless they've worked for you and know what's important to > you? But in my opinion, I really think it's up to the student to take > notes for themselves for that very reason: you want notes that > emphasize what you're interested in in a way that will make sense to > you sometime down the line when you study. A notetaker kind of puts a > kink in that system just because the information has to filter through > someone else's brain before it gets to yours. The only place where I'd > feel all right using a notetaker is for diagrams drawn on a board, but > I would tell them that I want them to tactally draw exactly what they > see with no interpretation on their part whatsoever. Luckily, > technology is making that happen much more easily than it used to. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> Gedi, >> I do my own stuff as much as I can too. For books, I've hired readers as I >> much prefer that to electronic text anyway; e-text you miss the tables and >> graphics in the text and my psychology classes had plenty of that. >> I ordered books as well from RFB. But you got to go through DSS to get an >> accomodation letter. >> If you need a notetaker, you have to go through DSS; same for testing >> accomodations, unless your professor lets you take the test on your laptop >> or something. >> But at least at Nova (community college) they do not let you pick your >> own >> readers for tests and notetakers. So you are pretty much stuck with them. >> I >> think they should provide such accomodations; it should not be our job to >> pay a notetaker for something like a math class, but students should have >> that option. Often the notetakers and readers are bad quality and a >> student >> would be better off using their own people. But you got to use their >> readers for tests. When I had my own reader and my DSS counselor found >> out, >> she almost got mad because she thought I used her for the exam and I >> explained I used my college assigned reader. "You have to use our >> reader/scribes." she said. >> I explained that the reader helped me prepare for the test by reading >> material, not take the test. She thought I had used her for the exam >> because >> the reader tried to get a room in the counseling center for us to study >> since the library was full and that is how word got to her. >> Oh and as for professors emailing handouts, I had a lot of issues this >> semester. >> So its not as easy to work with professors as you make it seem, at least >> for >> some professors. >> I tried it on my own. The professor ignored me. Then DSS had to tell him >> and copied the dean on the email request, and then finally something got >> done! > >> I guess my point here is that we can do it, but I think its good to form a >> good relationship with your DSS staff because you never know when you may >> need them like when I needed them to back me up on following my >> accomodations to get electronic handouts. > >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jedi >> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 6:42 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question > >> I've decided that, for me on the whole, disability service offices are >> highly over-rated. Usually, I just make my own accessible documents, >> especially since e-mail is so easy to get at these days. Most >> instructors are pretty cool with making on-the-fly adaptations for >> assignments and tests as needed. As for books, I usually just order >> mine or get my own reader. the only time i tend to use the DSS offices >> is for those classes where I can't do something for myself. For >> example, I needed a Braille math text that wasn't printed yet, so I got >> the DSS office to get me an electronic brf that I read through my >> notetaker. I used the DSS for science lab readers and a tactile >> interpreter for ASL classes. But this particular office was one of the >> better ones. But generally speaking, I just do my own stuff out of the >> box. So, I guess what I'm saying is that your need for a DSS office >> will greatly depend on your courses and what you can do for yourself. >> If your need is low, then DSS offices might not be as concerning to >> you. But if your need is high, you bet that the DSS office will on the >> top of your quality control list. > >> Respectfully Submitted > >> Original message: >>> Jedi, >>> I pretty much agree with you here-although I would add one more >>> consideration to the mix. All disability resource centers are not >>> created equal. Some have the capability to produce braille books, >>> others do not. Some have the ability to scan large textbooks and >>> convert them to suitable computer files while others don't. The >>> reliability and quality of volunteer reader programs can vary >>> considerably from university to university. >>> Adriana, >>> I suggest you do a little research on the disability centers at each >>> of the universities you're considering. Look at their web sites, send >>> them emails-if you can, call them up and see if they can do an >>> over-the-phone appointment to talk about their capabilities and >>> limits. If you need any help finding contact info for the disability >>> centers, I'm sure someone on this list can be of assistance. We're >>> here to share information, after all. >>> Hope that helps, >>> Kirt > >>> On 5/9/11, Jedi wrote: >>>> Adriana, > >>>> There is no such thing as "the best university program out there for >>>> blind people." At least, not in the context you're in. The fact is that >>>> you should choose a university you're genuinely interested in. The >>>> blindness stuff can be worked out wherever you are. The only concern >>>> that might be valid as a blind person is transportation. You want a >>>> university that's close to things or that has good transport so you can >>>> go places. But beyond that, the world is your apple and I suggest you >>>> have a bite. > >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi > >>>> Original message: >>>>> Hello! > >>>>> My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from >>>>> Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications >>>>> and Journalism. >>>>> At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my >>>>> admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University >>>>> of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, >>>>> Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which >>>>> was suggested by my Placement officer. > >>>>> Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best >>>>> option for a blind student? >>>>> I also would like to know which is the best option academically >>>>> speaking. > >>>>> Thank you for attending this >>>>> message. > > >>>>> Best, > > > >>>>> -- >>>>> Adriana Pulido >>>>> Filóloga y músico de la Universidad >>>>> Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From k7uij at panix.com Wed May 11 00:46:33 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 17:46:33 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board In-Reply-To: <79B2DB46A5044C369D4A9919F92C5D15@OwnerPC> References: <87B4B70E-36BD-485A-995B-5D6C8B07C2AE@gmail.com> <79B2DB46A5044C369D4A9919F92C5D15@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <006c01cc0f74$e08a1330$a19e3990$@panix.com> Have you called the IBTC to see if there's a way around your difficulties? Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 3:45 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board I know and they have version 9. -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 5:53 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board Keep in mind accessibility only improoved for I bbelieve either version 8 or 9 On May 10, 2011, at 5:43 PM, wrote: > Hi all, > I thought Blackboard was supposed to be more accessible. I wish they would > make headings for major topics. > Also I noticed the discussion board is not accessible. When you attempt > to create a new thread and post a comment, jaws will not let you into the > body of the message to post. I am not sure how you read other student > comments either. Are you supposed to click on their name or the > discussion thread's name? Are you able to read other comments fine? > > This annoying since I could not post my homework online this semester like > everyone else. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepae z%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From k7uij at panix.com Wed May 11 00:51:00 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 17:51:00 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: <003e01cc0f48$8adb46b0$a091d410$@com> References: <003e01cc0f48$8adb46b0$a091d410$@com> Message-ID: <006d01cc0f75$7fb52530$7f1f6f90$@panix.com> Philadelphia is a *great* city to get around. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sean Whalen Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 12:29 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question Adriana, As you might imagine, that is a difficult question to answer. Without being able to speak to somebody who has lived in all five cities for long enough to become well-acquainted with their transit systems, all you can really get are relatively uninformed and/or biased opinions. If I had to take a stab at it, I would say that you would likely find the most transportation options in Philadelphia, as it is the largest city of those you mentioned. You would probably be best off spending some time online looking at the various options in each area. You may also want to look at your particular living situation and location. A walkable location with a lot of shops, restaurants, and other facilities around can mitigate the damage of a subpar transit system. Really the best answer is to determine what is important to you (subway, buses, walkability, plentiful taxis, paratransit?) and do some research. Congrats on the Fulbright though. That's a great award! Take care, Sean _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From dandrews at visi.com Wed May 11 01:02:32 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 20:02:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [HIMS-News] Enter for a chance to win a free SenseView LIGHT. Message-ID: >From: "Jenny Axler" >To: >Subject: [HIMS-News] Enter for a chance to win a free SenseView LIGHT. >Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 16:46:24 -0500 > >Hello again everyone: >Due to the overwhelming customer response to >April’s BookSense DS giveaway, HIMS is pleased >to offer a chance to win another HIMS product in May. > >Visit our website before May 31 and enter for a >chance to win a free SenseView LIGHT, our >pocket-sized video magnifier with an AMOLED >screen, . if you are low vision, or know someone >who is, visit the following link and register your entry today: >http://www.hims-inc.com/enter-chance-win-free-senseview-light > >Jenny Axler >Technical Support Specialist >HIMS, Inc. >4616 West Howard Lane, Suite 960 >Austin, Texas 78728 >Phone: 512-837-2000 >email: Jenny at hims-inc.com >Web: www.hims-inc.com From serena.c.cucco at gmail.com Wed May 11 02:04:20 2011 From: serena.c.cucco at gmail.com (Serena Cucco) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 22:04:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] gmail and Outlook 2003 problem In-Reply-To: <705146D0-A4C4-4352-BEEE-0DC5D6284FB6@gmail.com> Message-ID: My computer genious cousin and I figured it out. It turned out I forgot to change the server type for the incoming server from pop3 to imap. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ignasi Cambra Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 5:43 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] gmail and Outlook 2003 problem Did you install all the updates to Office 2003? That version is pretty old... On May 8, 2011, at 6:22 PM, Serena Cucco wrote: > Hey Nabsters, > > > > I know this is more of a technology question than a blindness question, but > seeing many of you use gmail, maybe you might have some ideas. I just > started using Gmail with Microsoft Outlook 2003. (It's often difficult for > me to go online and use web-based email with Jaws, so I use Outlook, > instead.) Every time I open Outlook, the following error message is > displayed: "Internet security warning dialogue: The server you are connected > to is using a security certificate that cannot be verified. The CN name > does not match the past value. Do you want to continue using this server?" > I say yes and everything is fine, but it's quite annoying to keep getting > the error message. What can be done to fix this? > > > > Thanks, > > Serena > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serena.c.cucco%40gma il.com From gpaikens at gmail.com Wed May 11 02:08:07 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 21:08:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0C5A1FC5-F6A0-457A-8478-3FA4D5A3EECA@gmail.com> Hi Ashley, Maybe you could be more specific with your questions about the accessibility of the discussion board. I have been able to start new discussion threads and reply to the threads of others without difficulty. I do think opening threads and replies may have been tricky at first but I tried clicking on different things and eventually figured it out. I wish I remembered the answer to your question. This could be a JAWS issue as well. I am using a mac with voiceover and have been able to access the discussion boards just fine. I don't have the ability to look at blackboard with jaws anymore or I could give you more specific help. -Greg On May 10, 2011, at 4:43 PM, wrote: > Hi all, > I thought Blackboard was supposed to be more accessible. I wish they would make headings for major topics. > Also I noticed the discussion board is not accessible. When you attempt to create a new thread and post a comment, jaws will not let you into the body of the message to post. I am not sure how you read other student comments either. Are you supposed to click on their name or the discussion thread’s name? Are you able to read other comments fine? > > This annoying since I could not post my homework online this semester like everyone else. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed May 11 02:15:32 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 22:15:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board In-Reply-To: <006c01cc0f74$e08a1330$a19e3990$@panix.com> References: <87B4B70E-36BD-485A-995B-5D6C8B07C2AE@gmail.com><79B2DB46A5044C369D4A9919F92C5D15@OwnerPC> <006c01cc0f74$e08a1330$a19e3990$@panix.com> Message-ID: <5126E71B0FBA443183441FCBA46542FF@OwnerPC> Mike, Good idea. Who would I contact there? Curtis Chong? I have jaws 12, but still issues and I could not use the discussion board and this is problematic for my online class as well. I just found out one of our last assignments entails commenting on other students comments on the discussion board. Yikes. So not only do I need to post, but I need to read comments too! -----Original Message----- From: Mike Freeman Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 8:46 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board Have you called the IBTC to see if there's a way around your difficulties? Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 3:45 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board I know and they have version 9. -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 5:53 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board Keep in mind accessibility only improoved for I bbelieve either version 8 or 9 On May 10, 2011, at 5:43 PM, wrote: > Hi all, > I thought Blackboard was supposed to be more accessible. I wish they would > make headings for major topics. > Also I noticed the discussion board is not accessible. When you attempt > to create a new thread and post a comment, jaws will not let you into the > body of the message to post. I am not sure how you read other student > comments either. Are you supposed to click on their name or the > discussion thread's name? Are you able to read other comments fine? > > This annoying since I could not post my homework online this semester like > everyone else. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepae z%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From k7uij at panix.com Wed May 11 02:44:04 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 19:44:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board In-Reply-To: <5126E71B0FBA443183441FCBA46542FF@OwnerPC> References: <87B4B70E-36BD-485A-995B-5D6C8B07C2AE@gmail.com><79B2DB46A5044C369D4A9919F92C5D15@OwnerPC> <006c01cc0f74$e08a1330$a19e3990$@panix.com> <5126E71B0FBA443183441FCBA46542FF@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <007701cc0f85$4b8e5d70$e2ab1850$@panix.com> Ashley: When you call, you'll get a recording. State your problem and someone there will get back to you. Curtis no longer works there. Tony Olivero works there and comes to mind but not sure this is his specialty. Why not also call JAWS Tech Support if you're using JAWS? Or look thru the FS knowledge base? Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 7:16 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board Mike, Good idea. Who would I contact there? Curtis Chong? I have jaws 12, but still issues and I could not use the discussion board and this is problematic for my online class as well. I just found out one of our last assignments entails commenting on other students comments on the discussion board. Yikes. So not only do I need to post, but I need to read comments too! -----Original Message----- From: Mike Freeman Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 8:46 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board Have you called the IBTC to see if there's a way around your difficulties? Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 3:45 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board I know and they have version 9. -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 5:53 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board Keep in mind accessibility only improoved for I bbelieve either version 8 or 9 On May 10, 2011, at 5:43 PM, wrote: > Hi all, > I thought Blackboard was supposed to be more accessible. I wish they would > make headings for major topics. > Also I noticed the discussion board is not accessible. When you attempt > to create a new thread and post a comment, jaws will not let you into the > body of the message to post. I am not sure how you read other student > comments either. Are you supposed to click on their name or the > discussion thread's name? Are you able to read other comments fine? > > This annoying since I could not post my homework online this semester like > everyone else. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepae z%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed May 11 02:54:11 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 22:54:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board In-Reply-To: <007701cc0f85$4b8e5d70$e2ab1850$@panix.com> References: <87B4B70E-36BD-485A-995B-5D6C8B07C2AE@gmail.com><79B2DB46A5044C369D4A9919F92C5D15@OwnerPC> <006c01cc0f74$e08a1330$a19e3990$@panix.com><5126E71B0FBA443183441FCBA46542FF@OwnerPC> <007701cc0f85$4b8e5d70$e2ab1850$@panix.com> Message-ID: <33969020B9EF4C2D9D5AF7E89295C64A@OwnerPC> Yep, I;'ll leave a message there; good tip. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Freeman Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 10:44 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board Ashley: When you call, you'll get a recording. State your problem and someone there will get back to you. Curtis no longer works there. Tony Olivero works there and comes to mind but not sure this is his specialty. Why not also call JAWS Tech Support if you're using JAWS? Or look thru the FS knowledge base? Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 7:16 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board Mike, Good idea. Who would I contact there? Curtis Chong? I have jaws 12, but still issues and I could not use the discussion board and this is problematic for my online class as well. I just found out one of our last assignments entails commenting on other students comments on the discussion board. Yikes. So not only do I need to post, but I need to read comments too! -----Original Message----- From: Mike Freeman Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 8:46 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board Have you called the IBTC to see if there's a way around your difficulties? Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 3:45 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board I know and they have version 9. -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 5:53 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board Keep in mind accessibility only improoved for I bbelieve either version 8 or 9 On May 10, 2011, at 5:43 PM, wrote: > Hi all, > I thought Blackboard was supposed to be more accessible. I wish they would > make headings for major topics. > Also I noticed the discussion board is not accessible. When you attempt > to create a new thread and post a comment, jaws will not let you into the > body of the message to post. I am not sure how you read other student > comments either. Are you supposed to click on their name or the > discussion thread's name? Are you able to read other comments fine? > > This annoying since I could not post my homework online this semester like > everyone else. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepae z%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From ignasicambra at gmail.com Wed May 11 10:48:46 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 06:48:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: <2EE03A8AC1F543FB89932F05A931F8C2@OwnerPC> References: <20110510232126.24719.62927@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <2EE03A8AC1F543FB89932F05A931F8C2@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <1F6BA032-BA13-4169-B392-0E7C09E5DC77@gmail.com> I am surprised every time I hear people saying that they need to use human readers... In my university everything is put in word format for me including textbooks, assignments, exams and everything else. They have a few laptops with JAWS installed and a couple of Macs which do not have internet access and can be used to take exams. Why would I ever need a reader? I guess my question is if people use readers because they like using them or because there is no other choice? I have never used a reader before, but can only imagine how annoying it would be... On May 10, 2011, at 7:28 PM, wrote: > Hi Gedi, > I agree; we need consumer choice; we need DSS to do their job-- approve accomodations. I think its fine to have your official memo stating what accomodations you need so professors really know what you need like what is legitimate. But beyond that, you should have the freedom to choose a reader. > I felt that the exam tested my ability to work with an untrained reader, not the content. The college reader / scribe was bad; he mumbled and did not read at a consistent good pace. I circumvented that reader issue by politely demanding my exam be brailled, so they did it. > > I hope I do not get forced to get another bad reader because it affects your ability to do the test. It sucks. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- From: Jedi > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 7:21 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question > > That's one reason why I avoid DSS offices if at all possible. DSS > offices should work like any other entity serving people with > disabilities: they should honor consumer choice. I think it's fair to > say that a reader for an exam should not be the same individual who > helped you prepare. And if need be, the reader could sign a statement > or something. But as a consumer, you should be able to pick your reader > because you want to choose a reader/scribe who will reflect your > intelligence, not their ability to read the material and relay it to > you in a way that makes sense. So in other words, your test should be a > reflection of your ability, not your reader's. I've had that problem > before and it was damn annoying! Same goes for notetakers. You want > someone who will take the notes you want them to take rather than the > notes they think they should take. And how else would someone know what > to take down unless they've worked for you and know what's important to > you? But in my opinion, I really think it's up to the student to take > notes for themselves for that very reason: you want notes that > emphasize what you're interested in in a way that will make sense to > you sometime down the line when you study. A notetaker kind of puts a > kink in that system just because the information has to filter through > someone else's brain before it gets to yours. The only place where I'd > feel all right using a notetaker is for diagrams drawn on a board, but > I would tell them that I want them to tactally draw exactly what they > see with no interpretation on their part whatsoever. Luckily, > technology is making that happen much more easily than it used to. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> Gedi, >> I do my own stuff as much as I can too. For books, I've hired readers as I >> much prefer that to electronic text anyway; e-text you miss the tables and >> graphics in the text and my psychology classes had plenty of that. >> I ordered books as well from RFB. But you got to go through DSS to get an >> accomodation letter. >> If you need a notetaker, you have to go through DSS; same for testing >> accomodations, unless your professor lets you take the test on your laptop >> or something. >> But at least at Nova (community college) they do not let you pick your own >> readers for tests and notetakers. So you are pretty much stuck with them. I >> think they should provide such accomodations; it should not be our job to >> pay a notetaker for something like a math class, but students should have >> that option. Often the notetakers and readers are bad quality and a student >> would be better off using their own people. But you got to use their >> readers for tests. When I had my own reader and my DSS counselor found out, >> she almost got mad because she thought I used her for the exam and I >> explained I used my college assigned reader. "You have to use our >> reader/scribes." she said. >> I explained that the reader helped me prepare for the test by reading >> material, not take the test. She thought I had used her for the exam because >> the reader tried to get a room in the counseling center for us to study >> since the library was full and that is how word got to her. >> Oh and as for professors emailing handouts, I had a lot of issues this >> semester. >> So its not as easy to work with professors as you make it seem, at least for >> some professors. >> I tried it on my own. The professor ignored me. Then DSS had to tell him >> and copied the dean on the email request, and then finally something got >> done! > >> I guess my point here is that we can do it, but I think its good to form a >> good relationship with your DSS staff because you never know when you may >> need them like when I needed them to back me up on following my >> accomodations to get electronic handouts. > >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jedi >> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 6:42 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question > >> I've decided that, for me on the whole, disability service offices are >> highly over-rated. Usually, I just make my own accessible documents, >> especially since e-mail is so easy to get at these days. Most >> instructors are pretty cool with making on-the-fly adaptations for >> assignments and tests as needed. As for books, I usually just order >> mine or get my own reader. the only time i tend to use the DSS offices >> is for those classes where I can't do something for myself. For >> example, I needed a Braille math text that wasn't printed yet, so I got >> the DSS office to get me an electronic brf that I read through my >> notetaker. I used the DSS for science lab readers and a tactile >> interpreter for ASL classes. But this particular office was one of the >> better ones. But generally speaking, I just do my own stuff out of the >> box. So, I guess what I'm saying is that your need for a DSS office >> will greatly depend on your courses and what you can do for yourself. >> If your need is low, then DSS offices might not be as concerning to >> you. But if your need is high, you bet that the DSS office will on the >> top of your quality control list. > >> Respectfully Submitted > >> Original message: >>> Jedi, >>> I pretty much agree with you here-although I would add one more >>> consideration to the mix. All disability resource centers are not >>> created equal. Some have the capability to produce braille books, >>> others do not. Some have the ability to scan large textbooks and >>> convert them to suitable computer files while others don't. The >>> reliability and quality of volunteer reader programs can vary >>> considerably from university to university. >>> Adriana, >>> I suggest you do a little research on the disability centers at each >>> of the universities you're considering. Look at their web sites, send >>> them emails-if you can, call them up and see if they can do an >>> over-the-phone appointment to talk about their capabilities and >>> limits. If you need any help finding contact info for the disability >>> centers, I'm sure someone on this list can be of assistance. We're >>> here to share information, after all. >>> Hope that helps, >>> Kirt > >>> On 5/9/11, Jedi wrote: >>>> Adriana, > >>>> There is no such thing as "the best university program out there for >>>> blind people." At least, not in the context you're in. The fact is that >>>> you should choose a university you're genuinely interested in. The >>>> blindness stuff can be worked out wherever you are. The only concern >>>> that might be valid as a blind person is transportation. You want a >>>> university that's close to things or that has good transport so you can >>>> go places. But beyond that, the world is your apple and I suggest you >>>> have a bite. > >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi > >>>> Original message: >>>>> Hello! > >>>>> My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from >>>>> Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications >>>>> and Journalism. >>>>> At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my >>>>> admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University >>>>> of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, >>>>> Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which >>>>> was suggested by my Placement officer. > >>>>> Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best >>>>> option for a blind student? >>>>> I also would like to know which is the best option academically >>>>> speaking. > >>>>> Thank you for attending this >>>>> message. > > >>>>> Best, > > > >>>>> -- >>>>> Adriana Pulido >>>>> Filóloga y músico de la Universidad >>>>> Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Wed May 11 10:52:48 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 06:52:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: <05C0D2A4469143D0AE91905501CAEB16@OwnerPC> References: <20110510224246.24733.53442@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <05C0D2A4469143D0AE91905501CAEB16@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <3D094E08-925A-4C42-8CCA-E606D68961B5@gmail.com> In my university there is both a DSS office and an Adaptive Technology Center. I basically have no relationship at all with the DSS, because I find it a lot easier to deal with professors directly. The Adaptive Technology Center is extremely useful though. They have access to handouts etc when they are posted online and they send them to me in accessible formats very, very quickly. On May 10, 2011, at 7:08 PM, wrote: > Gedi, > I do my own stuff as much as I can too. For books, I've hired readers as I much prefer that to electronic text anyway; e-text you miss the tables and graphics in the text and my psychology classes had plenty of that. > I ordered books as well from RFB. But you got to go through DSS to get an accomodation letter. > If you need a notetaker, you have to go through DSS; same for testing accomodations, unless your professor lets you take the test on your laptop or something. > But at least at Nova (community college) they do not let you pick your own readers for tests and notetakers. So you are pretty much stuck with them. I think they should provide such accomodations; it should not be our job to pay a notetaker for something like a math class, but students should have that option. Often the notetakers and readers are bad quality and a student would be better off using their own people. But you got to use their readers for tests. When I had my own reader and my DSS counselor found out, she almost got mad because she thought I used her for the exam and I explained I used my college assigned reader. "You have to use our reader/scribes." she said. > I explained that the reader helped me prepare for the test by reading material, not take the test. She thought I had used her for the exam because the reader tried to get a room in the counseling center for us to study since the library was full and that is how word got to her. > Oh and as for professors emailing handouts, I had a lot of issues this semester. > So its not as easy to work with professors as you make it seem, at least for some professors. > I tried it on my own. The professor ignored me. Then DSS had to tell him and copied the dean on the email request, and then finally something got done! > > I guess my point here is that we can do it, but I think its good to form a good relationship with your DSS staff because you never know when you may need them like when I needed them to back me up on following my accomodations to get electronic handouts. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- From: Jedi > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 6:42 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question > > I've decided that, for me on the whole, disability service offices are > highly over-rated. Usually, I just make my own accessible documents, > especially since e-mail is so easy to get at these days. Most > instructors are pretty cool with making on-the-fly adaptations for > assignments and tests as needed. As for books, I usually just order > mine or get my own reader. the only time i tend to use the DSS offices > is for those classes where I can't do something for myself. For > example, I needed a Braille math text that wasn't printed yet, so I got > the DSS office to get me an electronic brf that I read through my > notetaker. I used the DSS for science lab readers and a tactile > interpreter for ASL classes. But this particular office was one of the > better ones. But generally speaking, I just do my own stuff out of the > box. So, I guess what I'm saying is that your need for a DSS office > will greatly depend on your courses and what you can do for yourself. > If your need is low, then DSS offices might not be as concerning to > you. But if your need is high, you bet that the DSS office will on the > top of your quality control list. > > Respectfully Submitted > > Original message: >> Jedi, >> I pretty much agree with you here-although I would add one more >> consideration to the mix. All disability resource centers are not >> created equal. Some have the capability to produce braille books, >> others do not. Some have the ability to scan large textbooks and >> convert them to suitable computer files while others don't. The >> reliability and quality of volunteer reader programs can vary >> considerably from university to university. >> Adriana, >> I suggest you do a little research on the disability centers at each >> of the universities you're considering. Look at their web sites, send >> them emails-if you can, call them up and see if they can do an >> over-the-phone appointment to talk about their capabilities and >> limits. If you need any help finding contact info for the disability >> centers, I'm sure someone on this list can be of assistance. We're >> here to share information, after all. >> Hope that helps, >> Kirt > >> On 5/9/11, Jedi wrote: >>> Adriana, > >>> There is no such thing as "the best university program out there for >>> blind people." At least, not in the context you're in. The fact is that >>> you should choose a university you're genuinely interested in. The >>> blindness stuff can be worked out wherever you are. The only concern >>> that might be valid as a blind person is transportation. You want a >>> university that's close to things or that has good transport so you can >>> go places. But beyond that, the world is your apple and I suggest you >>> have a bite. > >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi > >>> Original message: >>>> Hello! > >>>> My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from >>>> Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications >>>> and Journalism. >>>> At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my >>>> admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University >>>> of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, >>>> Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which >>>> was suggested by my Placement officer. > >>>> Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best >>>> option for a blind student? >>>> I also would like to know which is the best option academically speaking. > >>>> Thank you for attending this >>>> message. > > >>>> Best, > > > >>>> -- >>>> Adriana Pulido >>>> Filóloga y músico de la Universidad >>>> Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From kevinchao89 at gmail.com Wed May 11 13:48:44 2011 From: kevinchao89 at gmail.com (Kevin Chao) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 08:48:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board In-Reply-To: <33969020B9EF4C2D9D5AF7E89295C64A@OwnerPC> References: <87B4B70E-36BD-485A-995B-5D6C8B07C2AE@gmail.com> <79B2DB46A5044C369D4A9919F92C5D15@OwnerPC> <006c01cc0f74$e08a1330$a19e3990$@panix.com> <5126E71B0FBA443183441FCBA46542FF@OwnerPC> <007701cc0f85$4b8e5d70$e2ab1850$@panix.com> <33969020B9EF4C2D9D5AF7E89295C64A@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <4CC973E1-2BE0-45A2-A81A-1C7145AA2D22@gmail.com> I've used Blakcboard 7.3 and 9.1. Discussion board (viewing, posting, and replying), announcements, assignments, learning module, course docs, course info, contact, and entire aspect are mostly screen reader accessible with: * Windows JAWS and NVDA * Mac OS X and iOS (iPad and iPhone apps) VoiceOver If there are specific task, which people are having difficulties with... Please provide specifics: Windows /Mac OS X, web browser, screen reader, problem. Given that info, I'll provide specifics steps of how to perform these task. Sent from my iPad On May 10, 2011, at 9:54 PM, wrote: > Yep, I;'ll leave a message there; good tip. > > -----Original Message----- From: Mike Freeman > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 10:44 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board > > Ashley: > > When you call, you'll get a recording. State your problem and someone there > will get back to you. Curtis no longer works there. Tony Olivero works there > and comes to mind but not sure this is his specialty. Why not also call JAWS > Tech Support if you're using JAWS? Or look thru the FS knowledge base? > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 7:16 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board > > Mike, > Good idea. Who would I contact there? Curtis Chong? I have jaws 12, but > still issues and I could not use the discussion board and this is > problematic for my online class as well. > I just found out one of our last assignments entails commenting on other > students comments on the discussion board. > Yikes. > So not only do I need to post, but I need to read comments too! > > > -----Original Message----- From: Mike Freeman > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 8:46 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board > > Have you called the IBTC to see if there's a way around your difficulties? > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 3:45 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board > > I know and they have version 9. > > -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 5:53 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board > > Keep in mind accessibility only improoved for I bbelieve either version 8 or > > 9 > > > On May 10, 2011, at 5:43 PM, wrote: > >> Hi all, >> I thought Blackboard was supposed to be more accessible. I wish they would > >> make headings for major topics. >> Also I noticed the discussion board is not accessible. When you attempt >> to create a new thread and post a comment, jaws will not let you into the >> body of the message to post. I am not sure how you read other student >> comments either. Are you supposed to click on their name or the >> discussion thread's name? Are you able to read other comments fine? >> >> This annoying since I could not post my homework online this semester like > >> everyone else. >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepae > z%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com From adrimpc80 at gmail.com Wed May 11 16:02:04 2011 From: adrimpc80 at gmail.com (ADRIANA PULIDO) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 11:02:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: <3D094E08-925A-4C42-8CCA-E606D68961B5@gmail.com> References: <20110510224246.24733.53442@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <05C0D2A4469143D0AE91905501CAEB16@OwnerPC> <3D094E08-925A-4C42-8CCA-E606D68961B5@gmail.com> Message-ID: To all. After hearing your experiences with readers, I'm absolutely convinced that It's going to be better for me to use technology. In the undergraduate program, I normally used human readers who recorded the texts on a tape. nevertheless, by the end of my program, I started to scanned books and read E books by using Jaws. Thanks to this software, I could deeplly explore readings, and become much more independent. So in my degree program, i'll surely use assistive techhnology! Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and experiences! Adriana P. 2011/5/11, Ignasi Cambra : > In my university there is both a DSS office and an Adaptive Technology > Center. I basically have no relationship at all with the DSS, because I find > it a lot easier to deal with professors directly. The Adaptive Technology > Center is extremely useful though. They have access to handouts etc when > they are posted online and they send them to me in accessible formats very, > very quickly. > On May 10, 2011, at 7:08 PM, > wrote: > >> Gedi, >> I do my own stuff as much as I can too. For books, I've hired readers as I >> much prefer that to electronic text anyway; e-text you miss the tables and >> graphics in the text and my psychology classes had plenty of that. >> I ordered books as well from RFB. But you got to go through DSS to get an >> accomodation letter. >> If you need a notetaker, you have to go through DSS; same for testing >> accomodations, unless your professor lets you take the test on your laptop >> or something. >> But at least at Nova (community college) they do not let you pick your >> own readers for tests and notetakers. So you are pretty much stuck with >> them. I think they should provide such accomodations; it should not be >> our job to pay a notetaker for something like a math class, but students >> should have that option. Often the notetakers and readers are bad quality >> and a student would be better off using their own people. But you got to >> use their readers for tests. When I had my own reader and my DSS >> counselor found out, she almost got mad because she thought I used her for >> the exam and I explained I used my college assigned reader. "You have to >> use our reader/scribes." she said. >> I explained that the reader helped me prepare for the test by reading >> material, not take the test. She thought I had used her for the exam >> because the reader tried to get a room in the counseling center for us to >> study since the library was full and that is how word got to her. >> Oh and as for professors emailing handouts, I had a lot of issues this >> semester. >> So its not as easy to work with professors as you make it seem, at least >> for some professors. >> I tried it on my own. The professor ignored me. Then DSS had to tell him >> and copied the dean on the email request, and then finally something got >> done! >> >> I guess my point here is that we can do it, but I think its good to form a >> good relationship with your DSS staff because you never know when you may >> need them like when I needed them to back me up on following my >> accomodations to get electronic handouts. >> >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- From: Jedi >> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 6:42 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question >> >> I've decided that, for me on the whole, disability service offices are >> highly over-rated. Usually, I just make my own accessible documents, >> especially since e-mail is so easy to get at these days. Most >> instructors are pretty cool with making on-the-fly adaptations for >> assignments and tests as needed. As for books, I usually just order >> mine or get my own reader. the only time i tend to use the DSS offices >> is for those classes where I can't do something for myself. For >> example, I needed a Braille math text that wasn't printed yet, so I got >> the DSS office to get me an electronic brf that I read through my >> notetaker. I used the DSS for science lab readers and a tactile >> interpreter for ASL classes. But this particular office was one of the >> better ones. But generally speaking, I just do my own stuff out of the >> box. So, I guess what I'm saying is that your need for a DSS office >> will greatly depend on your courses and what you can do for yourself. >> If your need is low, then DSS offices might not be as concerning to >> you. But if your need is high, you bet that the DSS office will on the >> top of your quality control list. >> >> Respectfully Submitted >> >> Original message: >>> Jedi, >>> I pretty much agree with you here-although I would add one more >>> consideration to the mix. All disability resource centers are not >>> created equal. Some have the capability to produce braille books, >>> others do not. Some have the ability to scan large textbooks and >>> convert them to suitable computer files while others don't. The >>> reliability and quality of volunteer reader programs can vary >>> considerably from university to university. >>> Adriana, >>> I suggest you do a little research on the disability centers at each >>> of the universities you're considering. Look at their web sites, send >>> them emails-if you can, call them up and see if they can do an >>> over-the-phone appointment to talk about their capabilities and >>> limits. If you need any help finding contact info for the disability >>> centers, I'm sure someone on this list can be of assistance. We're >>> here to share information, after all. >>> Hope that helps, >>> Kirt >> >>> On 5/9/11, Jedi wrote: >>>> Adriana, >> >>>> There is no such thing as "the best university program out there for >>>> blind people." At least, not in the context you're in. The fact is that >>>> you should choose a university you're genuinely interested in. The >>>> blindness stuff can be worked out wherever you are. The only concern >>>> that might be valid as a blind person is transportation. You want a >>>> university that's close to things or that has good transport so you can >>>> go places. But beyond that, the world is your apple and I suggest you >>>> have a bite. >> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi >> >>>> Original message: >>>>> Hello! >> >>>>> My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from >>>>> Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications >>>>> and Journalism. >>>>> At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my >>>>> admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University >>>>> of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, >>>>> Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which >>>>> was suggested by my Placement officer. >> >>>>> Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best >>>>> option for a blind student? >>>>> I also would like to know which is the best option academically >>>>> speaking. >> >>>>> Thank you for attending this >>>>> message. >> >> >>>>> Best, >> >> >> >>>>> -- >>>>> Adriana Pulido >>>>> Filóloga y músico de la Universidad >>>>> Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrimpc80%40gmail.com > -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed May 11 17:27:33 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 13:27:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: <1F6BA032-BA13-4169-B392-0E7C09E5DC77@gmail.com> References: <20110510232126.24719.62927@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal><2EE03A8AC1F543FB89932F05A931F8C2@OwnerPC> <1F6BA032-BA13-4169-B392-0E7C09E5DC77@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ignosi, If your DSs puts everything in word format for you, then you are quite spoiled. I tried to get a book this semester in text format and the publisher did not release it; I went through the DSs and submitted my receit. As for exams, as I've said before, I cannot do the computer because our jaws is out of date and I'd have to get permission from my professor to use the computer. Besides, part of me does not want to because its easier to cheat. I've used readers ever since I was a freshman in college. Back then scanning made more errors, so I chose not to scan. Now scanning OCR is better, so I use it a little more. Even now, to look up material and study for an exam, readers have served me well to skim through stuff or look up something in an index/glossary. A human reader is a good tool in the tool box and it’s a good idea to learn how to work with them. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Ignasi Cambra Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 6:48 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question I am surprised every time I hear people saying that they need to use human readers... In my university everything is put in word format for me including textbooks, assignments, exams and everything else. They have a few laptops with JAWS installed and a couple of Macs which do not have internet access and can be used to take exams. Why would I ever need a reader? I guess my question is if people use readers because they like using them or because there is no other choice? I have never used a reader before, but can only imagine how annoying it would be... On May 10, 2011, at 7:28 PM, wrote: > Hi Gedi, > I agree; we need consumer choice; we need DSS to do their job-- approve > accomodations. I think its fine to have your official memo stating what > accomodations you need so professors really know what you need like what > is legitimate. But beyond that, you should have the freedom to choose a > reader. > I felt that the exam tested my ability to work with an untrained reader, > not the content. The college reader / scribe was bad; he mumbled and did > not read at a consistent good pace. I circumvented that reader issue by > politely demanding my exam be brailled, so they did it. > > I hope I do not get forced to get another bad reader because it affects > your ability to do the test. It sucks. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- From: Jedi > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 7:21 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question > > That's one reason why I avoid DSS offices if at all possible. DSS > offices should work like any other entity serving people with > disabilities: they should honor consumer choice. I think it's fair to > say that a reader for an exam should not be the same individual who > helped you prepare. And if need be, the reader could sign a statement > or something. But as a consumer, you should be able to pick your reader > because you want to choose a reader/scribe who will reflect your > intelligence, not their ability to read the material and relay it to > you in a way that makes sense. So in other words, your test should be a > reflection of your ability, not your reader's. I've had that problem > before and it was damn annoying! Same goes for notetakers. You want > someone who will take the notes you want them to take rather than the > notes they think they should take. And how else would someone know what > to take down unless they've worked for you and know what's important to > you? But in my opinion, I really think it's up to the student to take > notes for themselves for that very reason: you want notes that > emphasize what you're interested in in a way that will make sense to > you sometime down the line when you study. A notetaker kind of puts a > kink in that system just because the information has to filter through > someone else's brain before it gets to yours. The only place where I'd > feel all right using a notetaker is for diagrams drawn on a board, but > I would tell them that I want them to tactally draw exactly what they > see with no interpretation on their part whatsoever. Luckily, > technology is making that happen much more easily than it used to. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> Gedi, >> I do my own stuff as much as I can too. For books, I've hired readers as >> I >> much prefer that to electronic text anyway; e-text you miss the tables >> and >> graphics in the text and my psychology classes had plenty of that. >> I ordered books as well from RFB. But you got to go through DSS to get an >> accomodation letter. >> If you need a notetaker, you have to go through DSS; same for testing >> accomodations, unless your professor lets you take the test on your >> laptop >> or something. >> But at least at Nova (community college) they do not let you pick your >> own >> readers for tests and notetakers. So you are pretty much stuck with them. >> I >> think they should provide such accomodations; it should not be our job to >> pay a notetaker for something like a math class, but students should have >> that option. Often the notetakers and readers are bad quality and a >> student >> would be better off using their own people. But you got to use their >> readers for tests. When I had my own reader and my DSS counselor found >> out, >> she almost got mad because she thought I used her for the exam and I >> explained I used my college assigned reader. "You have to use our >> reader/scribes." she said. >> I explained that the reader helped me prepare for the test by reading >> material, not take the test. She thought I had used her for the exam >> because >> the reader tried to get a room in the counseling center for us to study >> since the library was full and that is how word got to her. >> Oh and as for professors emailing handouts, I had a lot of issues this >> semester. >> So its not as easy to work with professors as you make it seem, at least >> for >> some professors. >> I tried it on my own. The professor ignored me. Then DSS had to tell him >> and copied the dean on the email request, and then finally something got >> done! > >> I guess my point here is that we can do it, but I think its good to form >> a >> good relationship with your DSS staff because you never know when you may >> need them like when I needed them to back me up on following my >> accomodations to get electronic handouts. > >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jedi >> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 6:42 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question > >> I've decided that, for me on the whole, disability service offices are >> highly over-rated. Usually, I just make my own accessible documents, >> especially since e-mail is so easy to get at these days. Most >> instructors are pretty cool with making on-the-fly adaptations for >> assignments and tests as needed. As for books, I usually just order >> mine or get my own reader. the only time i tend to use the DSS offices >> is for those classes where I can't do something for myself. For >> example, I needed a Braille math text that wasn't printed yet, so I got >> the DSS office to get me an electronic brf that I read through my >> notetaker. I used the DSS for science lab readers and a tactile >> interpreter for ASL classes. But this particular office was one of the >> better ones. But generally speaking, I just do my own stuff out of the >> box. So, I guess what I'm saying is that your need for a DSS office >> will greatly depend on your courses and what you can do for yourself. >> If your need is low, then DSS offices might not be as concerning to >> you. But if your need is high, you bet that the DSS office will on the >> top of your quality control list. > >> Respectfully Submitted > >> Original message: >>> Jedi, >>> I pretty much agree with you here-although I would add one more >>> consideration to the mix. All disability resource centers are not >>> created equal. Some have the capability to produce braille books, >>> others do not. Some have the ability to scan large textbooks and >>> convert them to suitable computer files while others don't. The >>> reliability and quality of volunteer reader programs can vary >>> considerably from university to university. >>> Adriana, >>> I suggest you do a little research on the disability centers at each >>> of the universities you're considering. Look at their web sites, send >>> them emails-if you can, call them up and see if they can do an >>> over-the-phone appointment to talk about their capabilities and >>> limits. If you need any help finding contact info for the disability >>> centers, I'm sure someone on this list can be of assistance. We're >>> here to share information, after all. >>> Hope that helps, >>> Kirt > >>> On 5/9/11, Jedi wrote: >>>> Adriana, > >>>> There is no such thing as "the best university program out there for >>>> blind people." At least, not in the context you're in. The fact is that >>>> you should choose a university you're genuinely interested in. The >>>> blindness stuff can be worked out wherever you are. The only concern >>>> that might be valid as a blind person is transportation. You want a >>>> university that's close to things or that has good transport so you can >>>> go places. But beyond that, the world is your apple and I suggest you >>>> have a bite. > >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi > >>>> Original message: >>>>> Hello! > >>>>> My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from >>>>> Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications >>>>> and Journalism. >>>>> At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my >>>>> admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University >>>>> of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, >>>>> Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which >>>>> was suggested by my Placement officer. > >>>>> Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best >>>>> option for a blind student? >>>>> I also would like to know which is the best option academically >>>>> speaking. > >>>>> Thank you for attending this >>>>> message. > > >>>>> Best, > > > >>>>> -- >>>>> Adriana Pulido >>>>> Filóloga y músico de la Universidad >>>>> Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed May 11 17:34:03 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 13:34:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: References: <20110510224246.24733.53442@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal><05C0D2A4469143D0AE91905501CAEB16@OwnerPC><3D094E08-925A-4C42-8CCA-E606D68961B5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Adriana, I have my hired readers record on tape as well. Its not perfect, but IMO it beats attempting to find something with jaws that often will not yeild the search string you want. Its hard to find the material you need within a chapter to study without knowing the exact phrase you need to type. Also, your college may demand you use their readers for tests, not your own, although I suppose you could just use the computer. I hope the technology works for you; it did not work for me because I found the need to skim/scan over pages and irrelevant passages. A reader can do this, not a computer though. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: ADRIANA PULIDO Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 12:02 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question To all. After hearing your experiences with readers, I'm absolutely convinced that It's going to be better for me to use technology. In the undergraduate program, I normally used human readers who recorded the texts on a tape. nevertheless, by the end of my program, I started to scanned books and read E books by using Jaws. Thanks to this software, I could deeplly explore readings, and become much more independent. So in my degree program, i'll surely use assistive techhnology! Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and experiences! Adriana P. 2011/5/11, Ignasi Cambra : > In my university there is both a DSS office and an Adaptive Technology > Center. I basically have no relationship at all with the DSS, because I > find > it a lot easier to deal with professors directly. The Adaptive Technology > Center is extremely useful though. They have access to handouts etc when > they are posted online and they send them to me in accessible formats > very, > very quickly. > On May 10, 2011, at 7:08 PM, > wrote: > >> Gedi, >> I do my own stuff as much as I can too. For books, I've hired readers as >> I >> much prefer that to electronic text anyway; e-text you miss the tables >> and >> graphics in the text and my psychology classes had plenty of that. >> I ordered books as well from RFB. But you got to go through DSS to get an >> accomodation letter. >> If you need a notetaker, you have to go through DSS; same for testing >> accomodations, unless your professor lets you take the test on your >> laptop >> or something. >> But at least at Nova (community college) they do not let you pick your >> own readers for tests and notetakers. So you are pretty much stuck with >> them. I think they should provide such accomodations; it should not be >> our job to pay a notetaker for something like a math class, but students >> should have that option. Often the notetakers and readers are bad >> quality >> and a student would be better off using their own people. But you got to >> use their readers for tests. When I had my own reader and my DSS >> counselor found out, she almost got mad because she thought I used her >> for >> the exam and I explained I used my college assigned reader. "You have to >> use our reader/scribes." she said. >> I explained that the reader helped me prepare for the test by reading >> material, not take the test. She thought I had used her for the exam >> because the reader tried to get a room in the counseling center for us to >> study since the library was full and that is how word got to her. >> Oh and as for professors emailing handouts, I had a lot of issues this >> semester. >> So its not as easy to work with professors as you make it seem, at least >> for some professors. >> I tried it on my own. The professor ignored me. Then DSS had to tell him >> and copied the dean on the email request, and then finally something got >> done! >> >> I guess my point here is that we can do it, but I think its good to form >> a >> good relationship with your DSS staff because you never know when you may >> need them like when I needed them to back me up on following my >> accomodations to get electronic handouts. >> >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- From: Jedi >> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 6:42 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question >> >> I've decided that, for me on the whole, disability service offices are >> highly over-rated. Usually, I just make my own accessible documents, >> especially since e-mail is so easy to get at these days. Most >> instructors are pretty cool with making on-the-fly adaptations for >> assignments and tests as needed. As for books, I usually just order >> mine or get my own reader. the only time i tend to use the DSS offices >> is for those classes where I can't do something for myself. For >> example, I needed a Braille math text that wasn't printed yet, so I got >> the DSS office to get me an electronic brf that I read through my >> notetaker. I used the DSS for science lab readers and a tactile >> interpreter for ASL classes. But this particular office was one of the >> better ones. But generally speaking, I just do my own stuff out of the >> box. So, I guess what I'm saying is that your need for a DSS office >> will greatly depend on your courses and what you can do for yourself. >> If your need is low, then DSS offices might not be as concerning to >> you. But if your need is high, you bet that the DSS office will on the >> top of your quality control list. >> >> Respectfully Submitted >> >> Original message: >>> Jedi, >>> I pretty much agree with you here-although I would add one more >>> consideration to the mix. All disability resource centers are not >>> created equal. Some have the capability to produce braille books, >>> others do not. Some have the ability to scan large textbooks and >>> convert them to suitable computer files while others don't. The >>> reliability and quality of volunteer reader programs can vary >>> considerably from university to university. >>> Adriana, >>> I suggest you do a little research on the disability centers at each >>> of the universities you're considering. Look at their web sites, send >>> them emails-if you can, call them up and see if they can do an >>> over-the-phone appointment to talk about their capabilities and >>> limits. If you need any help finding contact info for the disability >>> centers, I'm sure someone on this list can be of assistance. We're >>> here to share information, after all. >>> Hope that helps, >>> Kirt >> >>> On 5/9/11, Jedi wrote: >>>> Adriana, >> >>>> There is no such thing as "the best university program out there for >>>> blind people." At least, not in the context you're in. The fact is that >>>> you should choose a university you're genuinely interested in. The >>>> blindness stuff can be worked out wherever you are. The only concern >>>> that might be valid as a blind person is transportation. You want a >>>> university that's close to things or that has good transport so you can >>>> go places. But beyond that, the world is your apple and I suggest you >>>> have a bite. >> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi >> >>>> Original message: >>>>> Hello! >> >>>>> My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from >>>>> Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications >>>>> and Journalism. >>>>> At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my >>>>> admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University >>>>> of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, >>>>> Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which >>>>> was suggested by my Placement officer. >> >>>>> Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best >>>>> option for a blind student? >>>>> I also would like to know which is the best option academically >>>>> speaking. >> >>>>> Thank you for attending this >>>>> message. >> >> >>>>> Best, >> >> >> >>>>> -- >>>>> Adriana Pulido >>>>> Filóloga y músico de la Universidad >>>>> Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrimpc80%40gmail.com > -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Wed May 11 18:46:20 2011 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 13:46:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question Message-ID: <000001cc100b$b8d31e30$2a795a90$@com> As eager as I was to point out the many advantages of electronic texts, I think anybody who thinks that human readers are never a better option must be doing course work in only a limited range of subjects. For advanced math, economics, statistics, sciences, and others, human readers to describe diagrams, tables, graphs and other visual elements are valuable tools. Of course you can get by without them, just as you can get by without etexts if you wish, but why would one choose to? They are two distinct tools, each with their own particular advantages and disadvantages. The question of which is better is meaningless without being placed in the context of the specific task one is trying to perform. Neither is absolutely necessary. Both are extremely useful. And, Kirt, I had plenty of excellent readers in college, but virtually all of them were simply classmates who I studied with and used as readers and were not provided by DSS. Certainly there are good and bad readers in volunteer programs. The "reader" the LSAC tried to give me for the LSAT, well, now that is another story. No redeeming qualities there! Sean From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 11 19:35:18 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 13:35:18 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: <000001cc100b$b8d31e30$2a795a90$@com> References: <000001cc100b$b8d31e30$2a795a90$@com> Message-ID: Sean, I've had volunteer readers and I've had classmates read stuff-on the whole, I've found my volunteer readers to be better in virtually every way. Maybe my DSS is just awesome...based on past experiences (admitedly only one year), I'd prefer one of their readers to a classmate for taking exams and reading me info from a textbook when needed, and I'd prefer a classmate as a study partner. Best regards, Kirt On 5/11/11, Sean Whalen wrote: > As eager as I was to point out the many advantages of electronic texts, I > think anybody who thinks that human readers are never a better option must > be doing course work in only a limited range of subjects. For advanced math, > economics, statistics, sciences, and others, human readers to describe > diagrams, tables, graphs and other visual elements are valuable tools. Of > course you can get by without them, just as you can get by without etexts if > you wish, but why would one choose to? They are two distinct tools, each > with their own particular advantages and disadvantages. The question of > which is better is meaningless without being placed in the context of the > specific task one is trying to perform. Neither is absolutely necessary. > Both are extremely useful. > > > > And, Kirt, I had plenty of excellent readers in college, but virtually all > of them were simply classmates who I studied with and used as readers and > were not provided by DSS. Certainly there are good and bad readers in > volunteer programs. The "reader" the LSAC tried to give me for the LSAT, > well, now that is another story. No redeeming qualities there! > > > > Sean > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From debbiewunder at earthlink.net Wed May 11 19:45:41 2011 From: debbiewunder at earthlink.net (Debbie Wunder) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 14:45:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs References: Message-ID: <77C676BCDC164E3F979CBE7D4FC7C7A3@DEBBIECOMPUTER> hello, I believe that you are able to bring the guide dog, but could not use the dog during class times. I think it is great if you wish to try a guide dog, I went in November to the GDB, but I would reccommend that you do so after your training program is complete. The reason I suggest this is because you will need to spend a great deal of time with your new guide becoming a team. I am both a cane user and guide dog user, both offer great mobility differences. Good Luck with what ever you decide. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 4:22 PM Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > Dear list, > I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to > try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably > go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it > ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know > that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a > cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I > get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any > problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a > guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/debbiewunder%40earthlink.net From kevinchao89 at gmail.com Wed May 11 19:47:29 2011 From: kevinchao89 at gmail.com (Kevin Chao) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 14:47:29 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Spring Closing: Future of eTextBooks Message-ID: <3051F09A-4A2F-4E3D-A087-3BBEA4DB723B@gmail.com> With spring drawing to a close, it's time to start hunting for accessible textbooks for summer and/or fall. Against popular belief, , there is a mainstream, fully accessible, cheap, and innovative eTextBook platform that I have been using with great success since fall 2010. And, I will be using them again for summer and fall. WHo is this company? CourseSmart What will it work with? Windows NVDA or jAWS; Mac OS X and iOS VoiceOver (I use it on all of these platforms/screen readers) Why? mainstream, innovative, 60% off regular textbooks, accessible, no need for disabled student services What other benefits? go-to-page, search, full table of contents, HTML tags/navigation (headings, lists, tables, and alt text for graphics) CourseSmart is worlds largest eTextBook company for higher education, and it's great that accessibility commitment and work is stellar, top-notch, and nothing better! Will you break from the status quo, join the innovation, and be a part of the future? Sent from my iPad From debbiewunder at earthlink.net Wed May 11 19:56:17 2011 From: debbiewunder at earthlink.net (Debbie Wunder) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 14:56:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs References: <3101D7B542594751BDC93FD5F64EF338@MarthaPC> Message-ID: Hi, some schools have a two week program even for first time users. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 9:37 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > To all, > Thanks for the thoughts and info. Honestly, I'd prefer to get a dog > after CCB but, the thing is, it's not often that a six week block of > time conveniently opens up...and I happen to have that kind of time > this summer. So, if I'm going to get a dog within the next year or > so, soon is probably the best time...I know it's not ideal, I know it > would probably be better if I did it the other way around, but I just > wanted to get peoples' thoughts because I'm considering the idea. I > appreciate all of you giving me your honest opinions because I've not > yet made up my mind and any info I get, especially from people > familiar with the process, helps. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/8/11, Martha Harris wrote: >> Hi Kirt, >> I attended BLIND, Inc. last year with my lab Dee. I'm not sure if my info >> is >> right, but I think at CCB you are allowed to have the dog for four hours >> and >> the cane for the other four. At BLIND, Inc. I was allowed to work her to >> and >> from the center as well as at lunch and the breaks, but she was crated >> during classes. If you get a dog before you attend training, I'd suggest >> practicing leaving your dog alone where you live now, because it will >> help >> when the dog is separated from you. For the first day or two, she whined >> sometimes, but she got used to the routine. Before I went, I was strongly >> considering not going to an NFB center because of the dog policy. I was >> afraid my dog would lose her skills and not be useful to me anymore. That >> did not happen. Working in the city was a great environment for her. As >> long >> as you go places after school, the dog can get enough work. We always had >> to >> go grocery shopping or to the bank, or we spent time going to dinner, >> hiking, whatever activity you find enjoyable, and you have the dog all >> weekend. If you are there during convention time, you can work your guide >> there as well. What other questions do you have about guide dogs at NFB >> centers? >> Also, when it is your time, like when you travel and are not going to >> convention, center activities, or staying in the town where the center >> is, I >> think you can use whatever cane you want. On one of the breaks from >> training, I flew to Pennsylvania to see friends, and I worked my guide >> dog >> and had a telescoping cane in my bag. Oh, a tip for training, it is >> always a >> good idea to carry a telescoping or folding cane because you never know >> when >> your straight cane will break. Mine broke when we did a center activity >> going to the Minnesota state fair, and it is no fun to be stranded. >> >> HTH, >> Martha >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 5:22 PM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >>> Dear list, >>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/latinanewschic%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/debbiewunder%40earthlink.net From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed May 11 19:57:20 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 15:57:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard and discussion board Message-ID: <4dcaea27.2d5c340a.4499.0914@mx.google.com> I=20thought=20NFB=20had=20reached=20a=20court=20settlement=20with=20Blackbo= ard=20to=20 make=20it=20more=20accessible.=20=20Hmm...=20=20hello=20NFB-NVA=20Accessibi= lity=20 Certification=20Program?=20I=20know=20there's=20an=20episode=20of=20Straigh= t=20Talk=20 about=20Vision=20Loss=20on=20NFB's=20site=20where=20Mark=20Riccobono=20inte= rviews=20 one=20of=20the=20higher-ups=20(I=20can't=20remember=20the=20exact=20title)= =20at=20 Blackboard=20about=20its=20settlement=20and=20plans=20of=20accessibility.=20= =20I=20 don't=20remember=20the=20episode=20number,=20but=20I=20know=20it's=20on=20t= he=20site.=20=20 Go=20to=20www.nfb.org,=20click=20on=20the=20Publications=20link,=20then=20o= n=20the=20 Audio/Video=20Center,=20then=20click=20on=20Video.=20=20From=20there,=20the= re's=20a=20 page=20for=20Straight=20Talk=20about=20Vision=20Loss.=20=20Click=20on=20the= =20link=20and=20 you=20should=20find=20it=20there.=20=20Hope=20this=20helps!=20Don't=20know= =20what's=20 going=20on=20there. Chris=20Nusbaum "A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abilit= ies=20motto) ---=20Sent=20from=20my=20Braille-Note -----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20 Hi all, Several people referenced the technology bill of rights. Can you all tell me more about it? Which technology does it cover? How many co-sponsors do we have? Was this introduced in the House, Senate or both? I’d like to contact my congressmen about it, but before that I need some more info on the bill including its number. Thanks. Ashley From ignasicambra at gmail.com Wed May 11 23:16:26 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 19:16:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: <000001cc100b$b8d31e30$2a795a90$@com> References: <000001cc100b$b8d31e30$2a795a90$@com> Message-ID: <9BB8E4D7-1EC1-4640-8F98-B78B0C2EC65B@gmail.com> Sean, As you said, it's just a matter of preference. I have taken advanced math and economics classes, and I always find it a lot more efficient to use tactile graphics produced by Adaptive Technology on campus than using anyone to describe them to me. I wasn't saying that I have anything against readers, I was just wondering if people use them because they like it or because they think it's useful. IC On May 11, 2011, at 2:46 PM, Sean Whalen wrote: > As eager as I was to point out the many advantages of electronic texts, I > think anybody who thinks that human readers are never a better option must > be doing course work in only a limited range of subjects. For advanced math, > economics, statistics, sciences, and others, human readers to describe > diagrams, tables, graphs and other visual elements are valuable tools. Of > course you can get by without them, just as you can get by without etexts if > you wish, but why would one choose to? They are two distinct tools, each > with their own particular advantages and disadvantages. The question of > which is better is meaningless without being placed in the context of the > specific task one is trying to perform. Neither is absolutely necessary. > Both are extremely useful. > > > > And, Kirt, I had plenty of excellent readers in college, but virtually all > of them were simply classmates who I studied with and used as readers and > were not provided by DSS. Certainly there are good and bad readers in > volunteer programs. The "reader" the LSAC tried to give me for the LSAT, > well, now that is another story. No redeeming qualities there! > > > > Sean > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu May 12 01:51:45 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 21:51:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] volunteering with homeless population Message-ID: <99DC5C36CFED45008D8C0F3C106AC817@OwnerPC> Hi all, Have any of you worked at soup kitchens or food pantries? How about an area where you either sort out clothes or give them out? How did it go? If you are serving, how did you know when they were there? When my dad and I served at a shelter, they would line up quietly. I did not always know when someone new was coming up. I have tunnel vision, so spotting a person was not always doable. My dad would say someone was there. They lined up together, but sometimes people came in later during that hour at random times. Since we cannot read clothes tags or labels on items, I’m not sure we can sort food/clothes/everyday items. I’ve not served at a soup kitchen, just shelters. I wonder if a soup kitchen is different and run more assembly line method. That would be easier. Each volunteer in the assembly line would serve an item and the plate would be passed down. Just asking so if I decide to volunteer, I know what alternative techniques others have used. Ashley From freethaught at gmail.com Thu May 12 01:52:08 2011 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 21:52:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material References: Message-ID: Hi Ashley, I can not identify with not having notes on tometing that was talked about in class. Note-taking is a strength of mine, and this does mean not taking too many notes at times. Here is the relevant tip or two I can share from a class I took on Urban Government. The professor would walk in the class room and interrupt my listening of Morning Edition, how rude. He'd write his notes on the board. They were the outline of the lecture, and any related key consepts. I'd make sure a class mate would read me the notes. The teacher allowed some time for this, and the process would only take about 3 minutes. He'd teach from his outline, and I'd fill in the information in the notes, editting on the braille lite at the time. I'd go home, read some of the book and fill in more of the blanks in a separate file. He gave study guides before exams, I'd scan it or have it dictated to me. They were not that long for me. I pasted the study guide into the class notes file, and searched for study terms in the same file. Once I found the answers in my notes, I'd paste the response just below the study question. Now I had access to the exam expectations right along with answers. I'd cram as hard as I could on the bus on the way to school, and my grades were okay for the class. I actually would ace the exams even thought i feared his method of testing us 4 times a semester with essay questions only, and that was that. Each test was 25 percent of your grade, and no multiple choice. His class was at 8:00, and he was what I'd call a hart *** professor. Just the setting I like the best. One of the best community college professors around. Reader dirrections are not difficult as long as you have a good working rhythm with your reader. I say things like Next paragraph, skip, next heading, read the ittalics words, previous sentense, two sentenses ahead, repeat sentense, and the like. the reader is your eyes. A cursor on the printed page, and you'll need to have them read as fast or as slow as you need. They may dictate text, or read text onto recording for you. You can take dictation for later transcription into electronic notes you can search, but be careful not to forget to listen later. It's amazint how many notes I've recorder and meant to write down. Electronic versions of your notes allow you to manipulate, search, and edit the text. Hope this helps, and let me go see what other recent NABS messages I might read and enloy since my last post a while ago. There's got to be something interesting out there. Thanks for your question. There was a similar thread back when I last read the list. I think I opened the skimming can of worms back then. Antonio Guimaraes ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 12:31 AM Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material > Hi all, > > College texts are full of words and examples. Frustrating when you cannot > skim through especially when you need the highlights for a test. > I take notes when reading. But my notes don’t always amount to what the > professor tells us to study for the test, if they tell us. > > So what do you do when the professor has a study guide? > Some students take it and jot down the coresponding pages to the study > topics and study those pages. > How do you use it? > Sometimes professors give a list of terms/concepts to study or a list of > questions to guide your preparation. My communication professor outlined > on the board what concepts we needed to know for our final. > But here’s the thing. I cannot skim the text or look up words. My notes > may or may not have them. Even if they do, its still looking for a needle > in a haystack when reviewing for finals! So I’ve usually had to ask a > reader; they act as my eyes and look in the index for the key words or > skim for the key words or headings in the chapter. > > For me, I usually use audio whenever possible. But even with e-texts, I > cannot skim because I don’t know the exact phrase and without that the > computer does Not know what to look for; also > it is divided in to chapters and I cannot search across chapters. > Another thing, how do you work with open book exams? > Do you have a reader there and they look up any info from the book? That > is what I’ve done. > Again, openbook tests let you use it as a reference tool, but that is > hard for us. > > So any tips for studying or “skimming” would be good. How can you direct > a reader to actually skim? Usually they will read too much to me rather > than just the main paragraph of the topic; generally under the main > headings I find the introduction to the concept and smaller headings tell > you details/examples. > > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com > From freethaught at gmail.com Thu May 12 02:02:43 2011 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 22:02:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material References: <4dbf0c45.42abe60a.5d2a.6b9c@mx.google.com><13F9180032F1485B9618380482D05488@OwnerPC> <00c201cc093b$308a6b40$919f41c0$@panix.com> Message-ID: Hi Mike, 1993 and 1995 was a long time ago. I say this in good fun, but would add taht human readers cost money. I'm facing a budget crisis just like our nation, and can not afford one. What is one to dop? Really, I've got Powerpoints golore ahead of finishing a science class for this semester, and I go to school online, where no class mate can help me. The solutions are outside of what I can affort. 1. Human readers who know powerpoint. 2. Buy a book on the subject of Powerpoint and screen readers. I think her name is Mary ann Mertha, she sells these wonderful books, and would be glad to sell me one. I could fight for Services for the Blind to buy me the book I need to learn the much needed skill, and the book would arive along with my next semester, ad the new cources. In time for new powerpoint projects but not the task at hand, the science. I have bennefited from reader services, but someone's got to pay for it. I think I can work well with readers, but I can't carry one in my pocket, or pull one out of a bottle whenever I need. And no, the KNFB reader does not do the trick for me. Antonio Guimaraes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material I say again: the answer is a human reader. Look at the May, 1993 Braille Monitor for an article by Peggy Elliott on this subject and in Future Reflections (some time in 1995, I think) for a similar article by Peggy Elliott and Barbara Cheadle. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 2:43 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material Chris, I use a computer; but as I said to find a text segment, you got to know the words exactly you're looking for. If you have a variation on it, that won't help. Plus some stuff is probably just in the index/glossary, like definitions. Often the index is not part of my e-text and even if it is, its so big that using a computer may not be practical to find it. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 3:55 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material I don't know whether you use a computer or notetaker to read E-texts, but if you have JAWS on a computer or use a Braille-Note BT, you can use a find command to find a text string, or word/phrase in a large document like a textbook. On a Braille-Note, hit space with F for the find command. Then it will ask you, "Search forward or back?" If you want to search for something that you know is further into the text than you currently are, het f for forward, and to search for something before the place where you are, hit b for back. Then, it will prompt "Find?" Type the text string you want to search for and hit Enter. If it finds the string you're searching for, it will put your cursor under that string. If you use JAWS on your computer, I think the find command is Alt F3, but don't quote me on that. I'll have to check and get back to you on that. If there's someone else on the list who knows what the Find command on JAWS is, please let us know. Hope that helps! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com > From freethaught at gmail.com Thu May 12 02:25:45 2011 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 22:25:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs References: <317475869.13423.1304891314579.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Kirt, You're probably better off geting a guide dog after your training at CCB. While CCB is known for being the most dog-friendly of NFB training centers, you still spend most of your day without your guide, and attend class travel the building and such with your long cane. You're free to leave the the training grounds with your guide dog in toe, and will use the dog on your activities outside the formal training setting. The time you spend away from your dog is time your dog is just sitting with another instructor, not bonding with you, unlearning good behavior, and forgetting its place in the pack of two. Other people, including the dog sitter for the day take your place as the alfa dog, and this does nothing for your team. this is just how I see the picture. I have been at CCB long enough, but others may have a different story. You'd need only ask Julie Deeden about the policies and she'll tell you all about them. No dogs durring the training day. Dog stays with someone else, and not with handler, and such. So get some good training under your belt, then interview and train with a dog after, I say. You'll have superb cane travel skills, and will be ready to take on dog travel with renewed confidence. Best, Antonio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > Amy, Nicole and all, > If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple > months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new > friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time > which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, > however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a > center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you > travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I > mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over > the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there > be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for > the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you > know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone > care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you > guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that > would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make > sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >> hello kurt, >> >> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >> your >> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >> to >> this topic. >> >> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >> >> >> hugs, >> amy >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kirt Manwaring >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >> Dear list, >> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com > From k7uij at panix.com Thu May 12 02:43:32 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 19:43:32 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material In-Reply-To: References: <4dbf0c45.42abe60a.5d2a.6b9c@mx.google.com><13F9180032F1485B9618380482D05488@OwnerPC> <00c201cc093b$308a6b40$919f41c0$@panix.com> Message-ID: <009101cc104e$62b0f700$2812e500$@panix.com> No one ever said blindness wasn't a nuisance! Go after your rehab = counselor to get you some reader service time. Obviously, you won't have a reader = in your pocket. You might (gasp) actually have to plan out time and/or have the reader with you in computer lab or whatever. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Guimaraes Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 7:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material Hi Mike, 1993 and 1995 was a long time ago. I say this in good fun, but would add taht human readers cost money. I'm facing a budget crisis just like our nation, and can not afford one. = What is one to dop? Really, I've got Powerpoints golore ahead of finishing a science class = for this semester, and I go to school online, where no class mate can help = me. The solutions are outside of what I can affort. 1. Human readers who know powerpoint. 2. Buy a book on the subject of Powerpoint and screen readers. I think = her name is Mary ann Mertha, she sells these wonderful books, and would be = glad to sell me one. I could fight for Services for the Blind to buy me the book I need to = learn the much needed skill, and the book would arive along with my next semester, ad the new cources. In time for new powerpoint projects but = not the task at hand, the science. I have bennefited from reader services, but someone's got to pay for it. I think I can work well with readers, but I can't carry one in my = pocket, or pull one out of a bottle whenever I need. And no, the KNFB reader does not do the trick for me. Antonio Guimaraes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"=20 Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material I say again: the answer is a human reader. Look at the May, 1993 Braille Monitor for an article by Peggy Elliott on this subject and in Future Reflections (some time in 1995, I think) for = a similar article by Peggy Elliott and Barbara Cheadle. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 2:43 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material Chris, I use a computer; but as I said to find a text segment, you got to know = the words exactly you're looking for. If you have a variation on it, that won't help. Plus some stuff is probably just in the index/glossary, like definitions. Often the index is not part of my e-text and even if it = is, its so big that using a computer may not be practical to find it. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 3:55 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying, skimming and reference material I don't know whether you use a computer or notetaker to read E-texts, = but if you have JAWS on a computer or use a Braille-Note BT, you can use a = find command to find a text string, or word/phrase in a large document like a textbook. On a Braille-Note, hit space with F for the find command. = Then it will ask you, "Search forward or back?" If you want to search for something that you know is further into the text than you currently are, het f for forward, and to search for something before the place where = you are, hit b for back. Then, it will prompt "Find?" Type the text string = you want to search for and hit Enter. If it finds the string you're = searching for, it will put your cursor under that string. If you use JAWS on your computer, I think the find command is Alt F3, but don't quote me on = that. I'll have to check and get back to you on that. If there's someone else = on the list who knows what the Find command on JAWS is, please let us know. Hope that helps! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) ----- Original Message ----- From: _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for=20 > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs- l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >=20 From k7uij at panix.com Thu May 12 02:50:00 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 19:50:00 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] volunteering with homeless population In-Reply-To: <99DC5C36CFED45008D8C0F3C106AC817@OwnerPC> References: <99DC5C36CFED45008D8C0F3C106AC817@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <009201cc104f$49ed96f0$ddc8c4d0$@panix.com> Ashley: I suspect that procedures vary from soup kitchen to soup kitchen. Perhaps the best plan is to go to the one you're thinking of volunteering for and talk to the manager. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 6:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] volunteering with homeless population Hi all, Have any of you worked at soup kitchens or food pantries? How about an area where you either sort out clothes or give them out? How did it go? If you are serving, how did you know when they were there? When my dad and I served at a shelter, they would line up quietly. I did not always know when someone new was coming up. I have tunnel vision, so spotting a person was not always doable. My dad would say someone was there. They lined up together, but sometimes people came in later during that hour at random times. Since we cannot read clothes tags or labels on items, I’m not sure we can sort food/clothes/everyday items. I’ve not served at a soup kitchen, just shelters. I wonder if a soup kitchen is different and run more assembly line method. That would be easier. Each volunteer in the assembly line would serve an item and the plate would be passed down. Just asking so if I decide to volunteer, I know what alternative techniques others have used. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Thu May 12 02:58:50 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 20:58:50 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: References: <317475869.13423.1304891314579.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: To all, Very good points-I know I probably am better off getting a dog after training. And I'm really considering it-the more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards that option. But here's the thing. Due to rehab bureaucracy and slowness (namely, taking a month to even get in touch with me to schedule an appointment...but let's not go there), It's pretty much not possible for me to do training on the original time table I wanted to. And, the more I think about it, the more I'm seeing a lot of cons to training (although I'm still probably going to do it). In a lot of areas the center spends a lot of time on, my skills are superb. Those that need work are improving at a very good clip already-I'm already independent enough to do pretty much whatever I want to do, whenever I want to do it, without too much trouble. My o&m isn't great, but it's good and getting better fast. My daily living isn't all that good but it's improving at a rapid clip as well because I'm having to figure out stuff on my own and I'm making tones of progress there. So my question is this...and let's drop talking about a dog for a minute because I don't know what to do about that just yet. While training would certainly be beneficial, I've come to realize my biggest hinderence is a lack of confidence rather than a lack of skill-I've been doing more o&m and cooking recently, and my skills are a lot better than I thought they were. While I'm not denying training would give me the confidence I'd need-would I gain that confidence working on the skills I already have in a real-world environment? (namely college) I mean-would it be a better use of my time to go to training and re-learn a lot of what I already know and gain confidence, or would I be better served spending those 6-9 months in a college classroom, in my own apartment, practicing and improving the considerable skills I already have and gaining confidence that way? I honestly don't know. I'm not denying I need serious improvement in some areas (and I could improve even on the skills I excell at), but it's not as if I'm starting from scratch-and I honestly feel like I know enough to learn anything else I need to know with practice. On the one hand, training would improve those skills faster than college would-I'd certainly come out of it more efficient and empowered. On the other hand-I'm already quite efficient and empowered already, and I know my efficiency and empowerment will improve with time so long as I keep working at it. Thoughts, anyone? Would I gain more by keeping up with my college education, or going to a center? I'm really not sure anymore. Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/11/11, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: > Kirt, > > You're probably better off geting a guide dog after your training at CCB. > > While CCB is known for being the most dog-friendly of NFB training centers, > you still spend most of your day without your guide, and attend class travel > the building and such with your long cane. > > You're free to leave the the training grounds with your guide dog in toe, > and will use the dog on your activities outside the formal training setting. > > The time you spend away from your dog is time your dog is just sitting with > another instructor, not bonding with you, unlearning good behavior, and > forgetting its place in the pack of two. > > Other people, including the dog sitter for the day take your place as the > alfa dog, and this does nothing for your team. > > this is just how I see the picture. I have been at CCB long enough, but > others may have a different story. > > You'd need only ask Julie Deeden about the policies and she'll tell you all > about them. No dogs durring the training day. Dog stays with someone else, > and not with handler, and such. > > So get some good training under your belt, then interview and train with a > dog after, I say. You'll have superb cane travel skills, and will be ready > to take on dog travel with renewed confidence. > > Best, > > Antonio > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirt Manwaring" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > > >> Amy, Nicole and all, >> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>> hello kurt, >>> >>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>> your >>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>> to >>> this topic. >>> >>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >>> >>> >>> hugs, >>> amy >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> >>> Dear list, >>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From freethaught at gmail.com Thu May 12 03:56:31 2011 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 23:56:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity References: <20110508024117.16613.86658@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <0C64C1ED7DD444A79C5233FD6E311650@useripvq7z5u3t> Message-ID: <9B1BAC72280045E6B040BC90667F61DB@antonioa544aa0> Hello Patrick and others, I wonder if anyone has heard of Dialogue in the Dark? http://www.dialogue-in-the-dark.com/ A friend in Brazil participated in one of their workshops, and They did take take sighted people through a blindness experience in the dark. The difference is they had discussions about life as a real blind person, not a fabricated dinner experience. I thought the events to be educational and thought-provoking. Arielle's research reveals what many in the blindness field have thought to be true. Giving an artificial blindness experience for some short period only scares people into thinking they can never deal with being blind. How many of you have heard "I wonder how he/she can do that." I bet some have heard this even today. Dialogue in the Dark is lead by blind people who explain nuances we nabs students might cover with a sighted friend over lunch. There isn't much opportunity for a full imersion into blindness there, but the people I like to share a meal with are already open to blindness, and understand some of my capabilities. I may want to hide my limitations from them, but they are smart enough to figure them out too. Blanket statements are never good, and some times we tend to have a chip on the sholder when it comes to the sighted. Most inteligent and educated sighted, socially adjusted people know a cool blind person when they see one. Said blind person need not try to prove himself to others. If others put barriers to interacting with, or having no regard for a blind person, they will have no regard for other people who are different from them. I tend to have mostly pleasant social contact these days. I snicker at the ones that smack of ignorance or fear and move on. These come mostly from people in my subsidised housing building who tend to be older, and from a limited background. I have molded to some of the NFb positions on many things, and I do not believe an extensive search for curing blindness to be very useful. I am glad for friends who will challenge current thought, and find a middle ground. Yes, that's you Kirt. But there are many who hold religious dogma who think God created people to be healthy, including the sightless. They are the ones who will stop a group of 3 blind mice out in Boston, place a hand on each of their sholders, and say "restore thy site," one prayer for each poor unfortunate unseen creature. We, I was one of the mice, didn't get our sites restored, so the praying person came back and repeated the ritual. We were all born blind, so no site could be restored since none was ever lost. I once wrote a somewhat angry set of verse about this sort of thing, but now I just refer the prayerer to Exodus 4, verses 11 and 12. God did create the seeing, and even the blind created he. I didn't mean to get carried away on religion, but this happens more often than I care to admit, and is relevant to curing blindness from a theological model. Best, Antonio Guimaraes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Johnson" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity > Group, > > It's a little absurd to compare the NFB with the Foundation Fighting > Blindness. The two have distinct missions and attract different > memberships. The FFB focuses on the medical and scientific aspects of > blindness. Take a look at their web site and the web site of their > upcoming conference. > > http://www.blindness.org/ > http://www.blindness.org/visions/ > > As for "Dining in the Dark", yes it is a fund raiser, but it is more > than that. The wait staff is completely blind and the food is served in > the dark. It is also an opportunity to educate the public. The wait > staff instructs the diners on how to orient themselves to their place > setting, locate, and identify their food and drink. > > To me this is educational and promotes the the vision that the blind > are capable of living independent and productive lives. > > It is wrong to make blanket comments about other blindness > organizations such as the FFB. The NFB, FFB, ACB, and dozens of other > organizations whoo advocate for the blind are all striving to improve our > lives. Whether you or I disagree with a specific policy or goal of a > blindness organization is completely understandable. But by making a > blanket statement about an entire organization makes the speaker sound > uninformed and could alienate the listener. > > $0.02 worth from someone who is afiliated with both the NFB and FFB. > > Patrick > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com > From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Thu May 12 04:02:12 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 21:02:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs References: <317475869.13423.1304891314579.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: I guess the question is if you are going to push yourself. It's one thing to say that you are going to do it, but another to actually do it. Although I have never been to a training center, I have a pretty good feeling that you have to do stuff, whether you want/need to or not. Are you going to be able to do that for yourself? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "Antonio Guimaraes" ; "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > To all, > Very good points-I know I probably am better off getting a dog after > training. And I'm really considering it-the more I think about it, > the more I'm leaning towards that option. But here's the thing. Due > to rehab bureaucracy and slowness (namely, taking a month to even get > in touch with me to schedule an appointment...but let's not go > there), It's pretty much not possible for me to do training on the > original time table I wanted to. And, the more I think about it, the > more I'm seeing a lot of cons to training (although I'm still probably > going to do it). In a lot of areas the center spends a lot of time > on, my skills are superb. Those that need work are improving at a > very good clip already-I'm already independent enough to do pretty > much whatever I want to do, whenever I want to do it, without too much > trouble. My o&m isn't great, but it's good and getting better fast. > My daily living isn't all that good but it's improving at a rapid clip > as well because I'm having to figure out stuff on my own and I'm > making tones of progress there. > So my question is this...and let's drop talking about a dog for a > minute because I don't know what to do about that just yet. While > training would certainly be beneficial, I've come to realize my > biggest hinderence is a lack of confidence rather than a lack of > skill-I've been doing more o&m and cooking recently, and my skills are > a lot better than I thought they were. While I'm not denying training > would give me the confidence I'd need-would I gain that confidence > working on the skills I already have in a real-world environment? > (namely college) I mean-would it be a better use of my time to go to > training and re-learn a lot of what I already know and gain > confidence, or would I be better served spending those 6-9 months in a > college classroom, in my own apartment, practicing and improving the > considerable skills I already have and gaining confidence that way? I > honestly don't know. I'm not denying I need serious improvement in > some areas (and I could improve even on the skills I excell at), but > it's not as if I'm starting from scratch-and I honestly feel like I > know enough to learn anything else I need to know with practice. On > the one hand, training would improve those skills faster than college > would-I'd certainly come out of it more efficient and empowered. On > the other hand-I'm already quite efficient and empowered already, and > I know my efficiency and empowerment will improve with time so long as > I keep working at it. Thoughts, anyone? Would I gain more by keeping > up with my college education, or going to a center? I'm really not > sure anymore. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/11/11, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: >> Kirt, >> >> You're probably better off geting a guide dog after your training at CCB. >> >> While CCB is known for being the most dog-friendly of NFB training >> centers, >> you still spend most of your day without your guide, and attend class >> travel >> the building and such with your long cane. >> >> You're free to leave the the training grounds with your guide dog in toe, >> and will use the dog on your activities outside the formal training >> setting. >> >> The time you spend away from your dog is time your dog is just sitting >> with >> another instructor, not bonding with you, unlearning good behavior, and >> forgetting its place in the pack of two. >> >> Other people, including the dog sitter for the day take your place as the >> alfa dog, and this does nothing for your team. >> >> this is just how I see the picture. I have been at CCB long enough, but >> others may have a different story. >> >> You'd need only ask Julie Deeden about the policies and she'll tell you >> all >> about them. No dogs durring the training day. Dog stays with someone >> else, >> and not with handler, and such. >> >> So get some good training under your belt, then interview and train with >> a >> dog after, I say. You'll have superb cane travel skills, and will be >> ready >> to take on dog travel with renewed confidence. >> >> Best, >> >> Antonio >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >> >>> Amy, Nicole and all, >>> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >>> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >>> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >>> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >>> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >>> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >>> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >>> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >>> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >>> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >>> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >>> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >>> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >>> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >>> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >>> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>>> hello kurt, >>>> >>>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>>> your >>>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>>> to >>>> this topic. >>>> >>>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >>>> >>>> >>>> hugs, >>>> amy >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>> >>>> Dear list, >>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From k7uij at panix.com Thu May 12 04:07:28 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 21:07:28 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs Message-ID: <009c01cc105a$1c28aab0$547a0010$@panix.com> Kirt: Far be it from me to say that a person can't succeed without training in a NFB center. I am not one of those who say "it's a NFB center or nothing!". I sometimes think there's a bit too much of that in our outfit. To some degree, this is understandable; if one has a product that works superbly, one wishes to spread the Gospel. However, I think this does a disservice to those of us who did *not* attend a NFB-inspired training center, who *did* receive good training elsewhere and who have been and are still living normal, fulfilled lives. WE don't want to completely fall into the trap of "my way or no way". That said, however, I would ask that you consider the following: how do you *know* that your skills will naturally improve (both O&M and daily living skills)? And how do you know that your confidence will increase simply by living your life? I admit that it's probably more likely than not that your skills and confidence will increase whether you go to a NFB center or not. However, I submit that you'll have nothing to measure this by; there will be no peers to encourage you, to kick you in the posterior when you need it and to serve as a yardstick by which you can truly judge your progress. And there may be skill deficiencies you haven't noticed yet that could be remedied at a NFB center. In other words, without NFB center training (or training at any other halfway decent orientation and training center, for that matter), you'll be strictly on your own. That may be what you want. God knows I might not have lasted more than a day at the old Iowa Commission for the Blind center under Dr. Jernigan even though I would have believed in the training; when I was your age, I was quite maverick. But would I not have been almost insufferably arrogant? I mean, when Spiro T. Agnew called college students "an effete corps of impudent snobs" in around 1970, I knew he was looking straight at me and I loved it! But was such arrogance wise? You might well be missing out on some valuable experiences -- even in the skills you think you're good at, you can always learn *something* in organized training you might not have thought of otherwise. And why are you in such an all-fired hurry? I can tell you this: the likelihood is *very* high that if you eschew training now, you'll never take it. Adult life and responsibilities have an insidious way of creeping up on you and taking all your time. So for practical purposes, your choice is not to finish college and *then* take training but rather to finish college and immediately enter the world of work (after all, you'll have student loans to pay off) with little prospect that you'll ever be able to carve out the time to get NFB center training in the future, Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 7:59 PM To: Antonio Guimaraes; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs To all, Very good points-I know I probably am better off getting a dog after training. And I'm really considering it-the more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards that option. But here's the thing. Due to rehab bureaucracy and slowness (namely, taking a month to even get in touch with me to schedule an appointment...but let's not go there), It's pretty much not possible for me to do training on the original time table I wanted to. And, the more I think about it, the more I'm seeing a lot of cons to training (although I'm still probably going to do it). In a lot of areas the center spends a lot of time on, my skills are superb. Those that need work are improving at a very good clip already-I'm already independent enough to do pretty much whatever I want to do, whenever I want to do it, without too much trouble. My o&m isn't great, but it's good and getting better fast. My daily living isn't all that good but it's improving at a rapid clip as well because I'm having to figure out stuff on my own and I'm making tones of progress there. So my question is this...and let's drop talking about a dog for a minute because I don't know what to do about that just yet. While training would certainly be beneficial, I've come to realize my biggest hinderence is a lack of confidence rather than a lack of skill-I've been doing more o&m and cooking recently, and my skills are a lot better than I thought they were. While I'm not denying training would give me the confidence I'd need-would I gain that confidence working on the skills I already have in a real-world environment? (namely college) I mean-would it be a better use of my time to go to training and re-learn a lot of what I already know and gain confidence, or would I be better served spending those 6-9 months in a college classroom, in my own apartment, practicing and improving the considerable skills I already have and gaining confidence that way? I honestly don't know. I'm not denying I need serious improvement in some areas (and I could improve even on the skills I excell at), but it's not as if I'm starting from scratch-and I honestly feel like I know enough to learn anything else I need to know with practice. On the one hand, training would improve those skills faster than college would-I'd certainly come out of it more efficient and empowered. On the other hand-I'm already quite efficient and empowered already, and I know my efficiency and empowerment will improve with time so long as I keep working at it. Thoughts, anyone? Would I gain more by keeping up with my college education, or going to a center? I'm really not sure anymore. Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/11/11, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: > Kirt, > > You're probably better off geting a guide dog after your training at CCB. > > While CCB is known for being the most dog-friendly of NFB training > centers, you still spend most of your day without your guide, and > attend class travel the building and such with your long cane. > > You're free to leave the the training grounds with your guide dog in > toe, and will use the dog on your activities outside the formal training setting. > > The time you spend away from your dog is time your dog is just sitting > with another instructor, not bonding with you, unlearning good > behavior, and forgetting its place in the pack of two. > > Other people, including the dog sitter for the day take your place as > the alfa dog, and this does nothing for your team. > > this is just how I see the picture. I have been at CCB long enough, > but others may have a different story. > > You'd need only ask Julie Deeden about the policies and she'll tell > you all about them. No dogs durring the training day. Dog stays with > someone else, and not with handler, and such. > > So get some good training under your belt, then interview and train > with a dog after, I say. You'll have superb cane travel skills, and > will be ready to take on dog travel with renewed confidence. > > Best, > > Antonio > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirt Manwaring" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > > >> Amy, Nicole and all, >> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would >> there be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along >> for the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane >> but...you know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would >> anyone care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, >> you guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course >> that would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to >> always make sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>> hello kurt, >>> >>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can >>> bring your guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for >>> some of your activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is >>> helpful to you and, hopefully others here will chime in with their >>> comments and suggestions to this topic. >>> >>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >>> >>> >>> hugs, >>> amy >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> >>> Dear list, >>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going >>> to try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will >>> probably go through the process of getting one. So my question is >>> this. Is it ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I >>> mean, I know that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need >>> to use a cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I >>> could do, if I get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But >>> would there be any problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work >>> out, with bringing a guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40c >>> omcast.net _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydu >>> de%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%4 >> 0gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude > %40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From wujing19861209 at hotmail.com Thu May 12 05:19:35 2011 From: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Jing_Crystal_Wu_=E5=90=B4=E6=99=B6?=) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 07:19:35 +0200 Subject: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity References: <20110508024117.16613.86658@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal><0C64C1ED7DD444A79C5233FD6E311650@useripvq7z5u3t> <9B1BAC72280045E6B040BC90667F61DB@antonioa544aa0> Message-ID: Dear Antonio and others, Yes, I have heard of Dialogue in the Dark and have been to their headquarter in Hamburg, Germany. I also attended their workshop both in Hong Kong and Germany. It's a very good educational event for sighted people. I introduced DID to some of my sighted friends and received positive feedback from them. DID also try to open franchizie in different countries. Regards, Crystal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Antonio Guimaraes" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 5:56 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity > Hello Patrick and others, > > I wonder if anyone has heard of Dialogue in the Dark? > > > http://www.dialogue-in-the-dark.com/ > > A friend in Brazil participated in one of their workshops, and They did > take take sighted people through a blindness experience in the dark. The > difference is they had discussions about life as a real blind person, not > a fabricated dinner experience. > > I thought the events to be educational and thought-provoking. > > Arielle's research reveals what many in the blindness field have thought > to be true. Giving an artificial blindness experience for some short > period only scares people into thinking they can never deal with being > blind. > > How many of you have heard "I wonder how he/she can do that." I bet some > have heard this even today. > > Dialogue in the Dark is lead by blind people who explain nuances we nabs > students might cover with a sighted friend over lunch. > > There isn't much opportunity for a full imersion into blindness there, but > the people I like to share a meal with are already open to blindness, and > understand some of my capabilities. > > I may want to hide my limitations from them, but they are smart enough to > figure them out too. > > Blanket statements are never good, and some times we tend to have a chip > on the sholder when it comes to the sighted. > > Most inteligent and educated sighted, socially adjusted people know a cool > blind person when they see one. Said blind person need not try to prove > himself to others. If others put barriers to interacting with, or having > no regard for a blind person, they will have no regard for other people > who are different from them. > > I tend to have mostly pleasant social contact these days. I snicker at the > ones that smack of ignorance or fear and move on. > > These come mostly from people in my subsidised housing building who tend > to be older, and from a limited background. > > I have molded to some of the NFb positions on many things, and I do not > believe an extensive search for curing blindness to be very useful. I am > glad for friends who will challenge current thought, and find a middle > ground. Yes, that's you Kirt. > > But there are many who hold religious dogma who think God created people > to be healthy, including the sightless. They are the ones who will stop a > group of 3 blind mice out in Boston, place a hand on each of their > sholders, and say "restore thy site," one prayer for each poor unfortunate > unseen creature. > > We, I was one of the mice, didn't get our sites restored, so the praying > person came back and repeated the ritual. We were all born blind, so no > site could be restored since none was ever lost. > > I once wrote a somewhat angry set of verse about this sort of thing, but > now I just refer the prayerer to Exodus 4, verses 11 and 12. > > God did create the seeing, and even the blind created he. > > I didn't mean to get carried away on religion, but this happens more often > than I care to admit, and is relevant to curing blindness from a > theological model. > > Best, > > Antonio Guimaraes > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Patrick Johnson" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 2:08 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Out of curiosity > > >> Group, >> >> It's a little absurd to compare the NFB with the Foundation Fighting >> Blindness. The two have distinct missions and attract different >> memberships. The FFB focuses on the medical and scientific aspects of >> blindness. Take a look at their web site and the web site of their >> upcoming conference. >> >> http://www.blindness.org/ >> http://www.blindness.org/visions/ >> >> As for "Dining in the Dark", yes it is a fund raiser, but it is more >> than that. The wait staff is completely blind and the food is served in >> the dark. It is also an opportunity to educate the public. The wait >> staff instructs the diners on how to orient themselves to their place >> setting, locate, and identify their food and drink. >> >> To me this is educational and promotes the the vision that the blind >> are capable of living independent and productive lives. >> >> It is wrong to make blanket comments about other blindness >> organizations such as the FFB. The NFB, FFB, ACB, and dozens of other >> organizations whoo advocate for the blind are all striving to improve our >> lives. Whether you or I disagree with a specific policy or goal of a >> blindness organization is completely understandable. But by making a >> blanket statement about an entire organization makes the speaker sound >> uninformed and could alienate the listener. >> >> $0.02 worth from someone who is afiliated with both the NFB and FFB. >> >> Patrick >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com > From ignasicambra at gmail.com Thu May 12 10:31:34 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 06:31:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: References: <317475869.13423.1304891314579.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <7D866523-CFE5-46C1-8851-5AB1048D8FFA@gmail.com> Kirt, In my personal opinion, I feel as though you would be better off just staying in college. If things are working well for you and you think you're improving, I don't see why you would want to postpone everything 9 months. I never received any formal training other than what I learned from my sighted parents while I was growing up, and some o&m instruction from a teacher here in Spain when I was pretty young. I was able to get a guide dog really early and at this point O&M is not a problem for me. Even though I'm aware that my skills in other things such as cooking are not the best, I would not spend 9 months somewhere just to learn those things. There are probably faster ways of getting it done, and I don't feel as though I would benefit enough from a full 9 month program. What I would consider though would be to spend a month or so at a training center so that I can get better at certain things. I don't even know if that's possible, but whenever I have time and I don't have any concerts to play in a couple of months I will try to see what options I have. Many times I feel like blindness skills are more about having common sense than anything else. After all, O&M, daily living etc are not tremendously complicated things which cannot be mastered with experience and by living in the real world :). Again these are just my opinions and everyone will probably have different ideas. In any case, I find this to be an interesting subject. IC On May 11, 2011, at 10:58 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > To all, > Very good points-I know I probably am better off getting a dog after > training. And I'm really considering it-the more I think about it, > the more I'm leaning towards that option. But here's the thing. Due > to rehab bureaucracy and slowness (namely, taking a month to even get > in touch with me to schedule an appointment...but let's not go > there), It's pretty much not possible for me to do training on the > original time table I wanted to. And, the more I think about it, the > more I'm seeing a lot of cons to training (although I'm still probably > going to do it). In a lot of areas the center spends a lot of time > on, my skills are superb. Those that need work are improving at a > very good clip already-I'm already independent enough to do pretty > much whatever I want to do, whenever I want to do it, without too much > trouble. My o&m isn't great, but it's good and getting better fast. > My daily living isn't all that good but it's improving at a rapid clip > as well because I'm having to figure out stuff on my own and I'm > making tones of progress there. > So my question is this...and let's drop talking about a dog for a > minute because I don't know what to do about that just yet. While > training would certainly be beneficial, I've come to realize my > biggest hinderence is a lack of confidence rather than a lack of > skill-I've been doing more o&m and cooking recently, and my skills are > a lot better than I thought they were. While I'm not denying training > would give me the confidence I'd need-would I gain that confidence > working on the skills I already have in a real-world environment? > (namely college) I mean-would it be a better use of my time to go to > training and re-learn a lot of what I already know and gain > confidence, or would I be better served spending those 6-9 months in a > college classroom, in my own apartment, practicing and improving the > considerable skills I already have and gaining confidence that way? I > honestly don't know. I'm not denying I need serious improvement in > some areas (and I could improve even on the skills I excell at), but > it's not as if I'm starting from scratch-and I honestly feel like I > know enough to learn anything else I need to know with practice. On > the one hand, training would improve those skills faster than college > would-I'd certainly come out of it more efficient and empowered. On > the other hand-I'm already quite efficient and empowered already, and > I know my efficiency and empowerment will improve with time so long as > I keep working at it. Thoughts, anyone? Would I gain more by keeping > up with my college education, or going to a center? I'm really not > sure anymore. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/11/11, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: >> Kirt, >> >> You're probably better off geting a guide dog after your training at CCB. >> >> While CCB is known for being the most dog-friendly of NFB training centers, >> you still spend most of your day without your guide, and attend class travel >> the building and such with your long cane. >> >> You're free to leave the the training grounds with your guide dog in toe, >> and will use the dog on your activities outside the formal training setting. >> >> The time you spend away from your dog is time your dog is just sitting with >> another instructor, not bonding with you, unlearning good behavior, and >> forgetting its place in the pack of two. >> >> Other people, including the dog sitter for the day take your place as the >> alfa dog, and this does nothing for your team. >> >> this is just how I see the picture. I have been at CCB long enough, but >> others may have a different story. >> >> You'd need only ask Julie Deeden about the policies and she'll tell you all >> about them. No dogs durring the training day. Dog stays with someone else, >> and not with handler, and such. >> >> So get some good training under your belt, then interview and train with a >> dog after, I say. You'll have superb cane travel skills, and will be ready >> to take on dog travel with renewed confidence. >> >> Best, >> >> Antonio >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >> >>> Amy, Nicole and all, >>> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >>> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >>> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >>> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >>> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >>> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >>> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >>> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >>> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >>> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >>> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >>> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >>> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >>> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >>> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >>> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>>> hello kurt, >>>> >>>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>>> your >>>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>>> to >>>> this topic. >>>> >>>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >>>> >>>> >>>> hugs, >>>> amy >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>> >>>> Dear list, >>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Thu May 12 11:34:33 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 07:34:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs Message-ID: <20110512113433.1282.58756@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Kirt, I felt much the same way about my skills that you do about yours. And you're right: training isn't the only way to improve skills, but it's a great idea if the opportunity presents itself. And the fact that you seem to have expressed two different oppinions about your skills tells me that training would be a good idea. On one hand, you say your skills are superb. On the other, you say you need improvement. So which is it? If it's confidence that's holding you back, training is a good way to go for a few reasons. First, we're all surrounded by public attitudes that keep us from meeting our full potential in a number of domains. Being in a training environment like CCB removes that factor for a little while to a considerable degree. Also, when you're in training, you've got all the time in the world to focus on blindness skills. when you're in college, not so much; you'll be lucky if you have a quick minute to fix yourself something to eat! More important though, research tells us that self-efficacy comes through social learning; its sped along in contexts where we have positive role models who can encourage us and help us tackle the right amount of challenge as we continually improve. We also know from research that mentors can help us bridge that gap between what we can do on our own and what we need help doing. Those reasons alone are great reasons to go through a training center because a training center has all those characteristics: you've got those positive role models, people to push and challenge you, people to encourage you, tons of time to just focus on your blindness skills without life distractions and with fewer public attitudes to deal with. And with anything in life, we often don't know what we don't know until we find out. that was my experience when I attended the LCB; I thought I had it good until I realized there was a lot of stuff I just didn't have much opportunity to get growing up. But if you want to know whether or not training is right for you, I'd read Freedom for the Blind and do some serious reflection. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > To all, > Very good points-I know I probably am better off getting a dog after > training. And I'm really considering it-the more I think about it, > the more I'm leaning towards that option. But here's the thing. Due > to rehab bureaucracy and slowness (namely, taking a month to even get > in touch with me to schedule an appointment...but let's not go > there), It's pretty much not possible for me to do training on the > original time table I wanted to. And, the more I think about it, the > more I'm seeing a lot of cons to training (although I'm still probably > going to do it). In a lot of areas the center spends a lot of time > on, my skills are superb. Those that need work are improving at a > very good clip already-I'm already independent enough to do pretty > much whatever I want to do, whenever I want to do it, without too much > trouble. My o&m isn't great, but it's good and getting better fast. > My daily living isn't all that good but it's improving at a rapid clip > as well because I'm having to figure out stuff on my own and I'm > making tones of progress there. > So my question is this...and let's drop talking about a dog for a > minute because I don't know what to do about that just yet. While > training would certainly be beneficial, I've come to realize my > biggest hinderence is a lack of confidence rather than a lack of > skill-I've been doing more o&m and cooking recently, and my skills are > a lot better than I thought they were. While I'm not denying training > would give me the confidence I'd need-would I gain that confidence > working on the skills I already have in a real-world environment? > (namely college) I mean-would it be a better use of my time to go to > training and re-learn a lot of what I already know and gain > confidence, or would I be better served spending those 6-9 months in a > college classroom, in my own apartment, practicing and improving the > considerable skills I already have and gaining confidence that way? I > honestly don't know. I'm not denying I need serious improvement in > some areas (and I could improve even on the skills I excell at), but > it's not as if I'm starting from scratch-and I honestly feel like I > know enough to learn anything else I need to know with practice. On > the one hand, training would improve those skills faster than college > would-I'd certainly come out of it more efficient and empowered. On > the other hand-I'm already quite efficient and empowered already, and > I know my efficiency and empowerment will improve with time so long as > I keep working at it. Thoughts, anyone? Would I gain more by keeping > up with my college education, or going to a center? I'm really not > sure anymore. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > On 5/11/11, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: >> Kirt, >> You're probably better off geting a guide dog after your training at CCB. >> While CCB is known for being the most dog-friendly of NFB training centers, >> you still spend most of your day without your guide, and attend class travel >> the building and such with your long cane. >> You're free to leave the the training grounds with your guide dog in toe, >> and will use the dog on your activities outside the formal training setting. >> The time you spend away from your dog is time your dog is just sitting with >> another instructor, not bonding with you, unlearning good behavior, and >> forgetting its place in the pack of two. >> Other people, including the dog sitter for the day take your place as the >> alfa dog, and this does nothing for your team. >> this is just how I see the picture. I have been at CCB long enough, but >> others may have a different story. >> You'd need only ask Julie Deeden about the policies and she'll tell you all >> about them. No dogs durring the training day. Dog stays with someone else, >> and not with handler, and such. >> So get some good training under your belt, then interview and train with a >> dog after, I say. You'll have superb cane travel skills, and will be ready >> to take on dog travel with renewed confidence. >> Best, >> Antonio >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> Amy, Nicole and all, >>> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >>> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >>> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >>> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >>> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >>> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >>> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >>> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >>> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >>> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >>> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >>> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >>> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >>> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >>> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >>> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>>> hello kurt, >>>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>>> your >>>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>>> to >>>> this topic. >>>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >>>> hugs, >>>> amy >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>> Dear list, >>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From debbiewunder at earthlink.net Thu May 12 14:43:31 2011 From: debbiewunder at earthlink.net (Debbie Wunder) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 09:43:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs References: <317475869.13423.1304891314579.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Hello, blindness skills that you will need to be successful in college or on the job are things such as note taking, writing, Brailled, study skills, mobility, and good listening skills. Do you feel that these skills are already homed? When I was younger and went to college, I never gave these things much thought, but every one of them are a huge part of what will be your succes in life. If they are not up to parr, then I would go to the center. By the way people always use the term in the real world, I am not sure what isn't the real world. Learning skills certainly is, going to school certainly is, and later find employment is. Never sell short what you are working to improve upon or what you are learning. Good Luck! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "Antonio Guimaraes" ; "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 9:58 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > To all, > Very good points-I know I probably am better off getting a dog after > training. And I'm really considering it-the more I think about it, > the more I'm leaning towards that option. But here's the thing. Due > to rehab bureaucracy and slowness (namely, taking a month to even get > in touch with me to schedule an appointment...but let's not go > there), It's pretty much not possible for me to do training on the > original time table I wanted to. And, the more I think about it, the > more I'm seeing a lot of cons to training (although I'm still probably > going to do it). In a lot of areas the center spends a lot of time > on, my skills are superb. Those that need work are improving at a > very good clip already-I'm already independent enough to do pretty > much whatever I want to do, whenever I want to do it, without too much > trouble. My o&m isn't great, but it's good and getting better fast. > My daily living isn't all that good but it's improving at a rapid clip > as well because I'm having to figure out stuff on my own and I'm > making tones of progress there. > So my question is this...and let's drop talking about a dog for a > minute because I don't know what to do about that just yet. While > training would certainly be beneficial, I've come to realize my > biggest hinderence is a lack of confidence rather than a lack of > skill-I've been doing more o&m and cooking recently, and my skills are > a lot better than I thought they were. While I'm not denying training > would give me the confidence I'd need-would I gain that confidence > working on the skills I already have in a real-world environment? > (namely college) I mean-would it be a better use of my time to go to > training and re-learn a lot of what I already know and gain > confidence, or would I be better served spending those 6-9 months in a > college classroom, in my own apartment, practicing and improving the > considerable skills I already have and gaining confidence that way? I > honestly don't know. I'm not denying I need serious improvement in > some areas (and I could improve even on the skills I excell at), but > it's not as if I'm starting from scratch-and I honestly feel like I > know enough to learn anything else I need to know with practice. On > the one hand, training would improve those skills faster than college > would-I'd certainly come out of it more efficient and empowered. On > the other hand-I'm already quite efficient and empowered already, and > I know my efficiency and empowerment will improve with time so long as > I keep working at it. Thoughts, anyone? Would I gain more by keeping > up with my college education, or going to a center? I'm really not > sure anymore. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/11/11, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: >> Kirt, >> >> You're probably better off geting a guide dog after your training at CCB. >> >> While CCB is known for being the most dog-friendly of NFB training >> centers, >> you still spend most of your day without your guide, and attend class >> travel >> the building and such with your long cane. >> >> You're free to leave the the training grounds with your guide dog in toe, >> and will use the dog on your activities outside the formal training >> setting. >> >> The time you spend away from your dog is time your dog is just sitting >> with >> another instructor, not bonding with you, unlearning good behavior, and >> forgetting its place in the pack of two. >> >> Other people, including the dog sitter for the day take your place as the >> alfa dog, and this does nothing for your team. >> >> this is just how I see the picture. I have been at CCB long enough, but >> others may have a different story. >> >> You'd need only ask Julie Deeden about the policies and she'll tell you >> all >> about them. No dogs durring the training day. Dog stays with someone >> else, >> and not with handler, and such. >> >> So get some good training under your belt, then interview and train with >> a >> dog after, I say. You'll have superb cane travel skills, and will be >> ready >> to take on dog travel with renewed confidence. >> >> Best, >> >> Antonio >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >> >>> Amy, Nicole and all, >>> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >>> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >>> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >>> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >>> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >>> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >>> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >>> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >>> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >>> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >>> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >>> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >>> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >>> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >>> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >>> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>>> hello kurt, >>>> >>>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>>> your >>>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>>> to >>>> this topic. >>>> >>>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >>>> >>>> >>>> hugs, >>>> amy >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>> >>>> Dear list, >>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/debbiewunder%40earthlink.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Thu May 12 15:10:39 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 09:10:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: <20110512113433.1282.58756@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> References: <20110512113433.1282.58756@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Jedi, Some of my skills are superb-some are not-they could all use improvement. I definitely have a high enough skill level to thrive in college, in the workplace, and, should I choose, in the family. On the other hand, I have to take your word about training showing you deficiencies you didn't know you had because you've been there and I haven't. I'll read the book-I read it a few years back but that was before I really understood what was going on and such. Warmly, Kirt On 5/12/11, Jedi wrote: > Kirt, > > I felt much the same way about my skills that you do about yours. And > you're right: training isn't the only way to improve skills, but it's a > great idea if the opportunity presents itself. And the fact that you > seem to have expressed two different oppinions about your skills tells > me that training would be a good idea. On one hand, you say your skills > are superb. On the other, you say you need improvement. So which is it? > > If it's confidence that's holding you back, training is a good way to > go for a few reasons. First, we're all surrounded by public attitudes > that keep us from meeting our full potential in a number of domains. > Being in a training environment like CCB removes that factor for a > little while to a considerable degree. Also, when you're in training, > you've got all the time in the world to focus on blindness skills. when > you're in college, not so much; you'll be lucky if you have a quick > minute to fix yourself something to eat! More important though, > research tells us that self-efficacy comes through social learning; its > sped along in contexts where we have positive role models who can > encourage us and help us tackle the right amount of challenge as we > continually improve. We also know from research that mentors can help > us bridge that gap between what we can do on our own and what we need > help doing. Those reasons alone are great reasons to go through a > training center because a training center has all those > characteristics: you've got those positive role models, people to push > and challenge you, people to encourage you, tons of time to just focus > on your blindness skills without life distractions and with fewer > public attitudes to deal with. And with anything in life, we often > don't know what we don't know until we find out. that was my experience > when I attended the LCB; I thought I had it good until I realized there > was a lot of stuff I just didn't have much opportunity to get growing > up. But if you want to know whether or not training is right for you, > I'd read Freedom for the Blind and do some serious reflection. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> To all, >> Very good points-I know I probably am better off getting a dog after >> training. And I'm really considering it-the more I think about it, >> the more I'm leaning towards that option. But here's the thing. Due >> to rehab bureaucracy and slowness (namely, taking a month to even get >> in touch with me to schedule an appointment...but let's not go >> there), It's pretty much not possible for me to do training on the >> original time table I wanted to. And, the more I think about it, the >> more I'm seeing a lot of cons to training (although I'm still probably >> going to do it). In a lot of areas the center spends a lot of time >> on, my skills are superb. Those that need work are improving at a >> very good clip already-I'm already independent enough to do pretty >> much whatever I want to do, whenever I want to do it, without too much >> trouble. My o&m isn't great, but it's good and getting better fast. >> My daily living isn't all that good but it's improving at a rapid clip >> as well because I'm having to figure out stuff on my own and I'm >> making tones of progress there. >> So my question is this...and let's drop talking about a dog for a >> minute because I don't know what to do about that just yet. While >> training would certainly be beneficial, I've come to realize my >> biggest hinderence is a lack of confidence rather than a lack of >> skill-I've been doing more o&m and cooking recently, and my skills are >> a lot better than I thought they were. While I'm not denying training >> would give me the confidence I'd need-would I gain that confidence >> working on the skills I already have in a real-world environment? >> (namely college) I mean-would it be a better use of my time to go to >> training and re-learn a lot of what I already know and gain >> confidence, or would I be better served spending those 6-9 months in a >> college classroom, in my own apartment, practicing and improving the >> considerable skills I already have and gaining confidence that way? I >> honestly don't know. I'm not denying I need serious improvement in >> some areas (and I could improve even on the skills I excell at), but >> it's not as if I'm starting from scratch-and I honestly feel like I >> know enough to learn anything else I need to know with practice. On >> the one hand, training would improve those skills faster than college >> would-I'd certainly come out of it more efficient and empowered. On >> the other hand-I'm already quite efficient and empowered already, and >> I know my efficiency and empowerment will improve with time so long as >> I keep working at it. Thoughts, anyone? Would I gain more by keeping >> up with my college education, or going to a center? I'm really not >> sure anymore. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt > >> On 5/11/11, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: >>> Kirt, > >>> You're probably better off geting a guide dog after your training at CCB. > >>> While CCB is known for being the most dog-friendly of NFB training >>> centers, >>> you still spend most of your day without your guide, and attend class >>> travel >>> the building and such with your long cane. > >>> You're free to leave the the training grounds with your guide dog in toe, >>> and will use the dog on your activities outside the formal training >>> setting. > >>> The time you spend away from your dog is time your dog is just sitting >>> with >>> another instructor, not bonding with you, unlearning good behavior, and >>> forgetting its place in the pack of two. > >>> Other people, including the dog sitter for the day take your place as the >>> alfa dog, and this does nothing for your team. > >>> this is just how I see the picture. I have been at CCB long enough, but >>> others may have a different story. > >>> You'd need only ask Julie Deeden about the policies and she'll tell you >>> all >>> about them. No dogs durring the training day. Dog stays with someone >>> else, >>> and not with handler, and such. > >>> So get some good training under your belt, then interview and train with >>> a >>> dog after, I say. You'll have superb cane travel skills, and will be >>> ready >>> to take on dog travel with renewed confidence. > >>> Best, > >>> Antonio > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > > >>>> Amy, Nicole and all, >>>> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >>>> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >>>> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >>>> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >>>> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >>>> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >>>> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >>>> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >>>> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >>>> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >>>> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >>>> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >>>> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >>>> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >>>> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >>>> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt > >>>> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>>>> hello kurt, > >>>>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>>>> your >>>>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>>>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>>>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>>>> to >>>>> this topic. > >>>>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. > > >>>>> hugs, >>>>> amy > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > >>>>> Dear list, >>>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>> Kirt > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com > > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Thu May 12 15:15:24 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 09:15:24 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: References: <317475869.13423.1304891314579.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Debby, My notetaking, braille, technology and listening skills are definitely above par-they'd give me an eagle or a hole in one. If we're sticking with the golf analogy, my o&m skills and daily living skills are maybe at a bogie...where a couple years ago they would've got me kicked off the tour! ;) Warmly, Kirt Ignasi, I do see your point. But could you deny that 6-9 months training would benefit you more than a month in the areas like cooking where you say you lack? Warmly, Kirt On 5/12/11, Debbie Wunder wrote: > Hello, blindness skills that you will need to be successful in college or on > the job are things such as note taking, writing, Brailled, study skills, > mobility, and good listening skills. Do you feel that these skills are > already homed? When I was younger and went to college, I never gave these > things much thought, but every one of them are a huge part of what will be > your succes in life. If they are not up to parr, then I would go to the > center. By the way people always use the term in the real world, I am not > sure what isn't the real world. Learning skills certainly is, going to > school certainly is, and later find employment is. Never sell short what you > are working to improve upon or what you are learning. > > Good Luck! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirt Manwaring" > To: "Antonio Guimaraes" ; "National Association of > Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 9:58 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > > >> To all, >> Very good points-I know I probably am better off getting a dog after >> training. And I'm really considering it-the more I think about it, >> the more I'm leaning towards that option. But here's the thing. Due >> to rehab bureaucracy and slowness (namely, taking a month to even get >> in touch with me to schedule an appointment...but let's not go >> there), It's pretty much not possible for me to do training on the >> original time table I wanted to. And, the more I think about it, the >> more I'm seeing a lot of cons to training (although I'm still probably >> going to do it). In a lot of areas the center spends a lot of time >> on, my skills are superb. Those that need work are improving at a >> very good clip already-I'm already independent enough to do pretty >> much whatever I want to do, whenever I want to do it, without too much >> trouble. My o&m isn't great, but it's good and getting better fast. >> My daily living isn't all that good but it's improving at a rapid clip >> as well because I'm having to figure out stuff on my own and I'm >> making tones of progress there. >> So my question is this...and let's drop talking about a dog for a >> minute because I don't know what to do about that just yet. While >> training would certainly be beneficial, I've come to realize my >> biggest hinderence is a lack of confidence rather than a lack of >> skill-I've been doing more o&m and cooking recently, and my skills are >> a lot better than I thought they were. While I'm not denying training >> would give me the confidence I'd need-would I gain that confidence >> working on the skills I already have in a real-world environment? >> (namely college) I mean-would it be a better use of my time to go to >> training and re-learn a lot of what I already know and gain >> confidence, or would I be better served spending those 6-9 months in a >> college classroom, in my own apartment, practicing and improving the >> considerable skills I already have and gaining confidence that way? I >> honestly don't know. I'm not denying I need serious improvement in >> some areas (and I could improve even on the skills I excell at), but >> it's not as if I'm starting from scratch-and I honestly feel like I >> know enough to learn anything else I need to know with practice. On >> the one hand, training would improve those skills faster than college >> would-I'd certainly come out of it more efficient and empowered. On >> the other hand-I'm already quite efficient and empowered already, and >> I know my efficiency and empowerment will improve with time so long as >> I keep working at it. Thoughts, anyone? Would I gain more by keeping >> up with my college education, or going to a center? I'm really not >> sure anymore. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/11/11, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: >>> Kirt, >>> >>> You're probably better off geting a guide dog after your training at CCB. >>> >>> While CCB is known for being the most dog-friendly of NFB training >>> centers, >>> you still spend most of your day without your guide, and attend class >>> travel >>> the building and such with your long cane. >>> >>> You're free to leave the the training grounds with your guide dog in toe, >>> and will use the dog on your activities outside the formal training >>> setting. >>> >>> The time you spend away from your dog is time your dog is just sitting >>> with >>> another instructor, not bonding with you, unlearning good behavior, and >>> forgetting its place in the pack of two. >>> >>> Other people, including the dog sitter for the day take your place as the >>> alfa dog, and this does nothing for your team. >>> >>> this is just how I see the picture. I have been at CCB long enough, but >>> others may have a different story. >>> >>> You'd need only ask Julie Deeden about the policies and she'll tell you >>> all >>> about them. No dogs durring the training day. Dog stays with someone >>> else, >>> and not with handler, and such. >>> >>> So get some good training under your belt, then interview and train with >>> a >>> dog after, I say. You'll have superb cane travel skills, and will be >>> ready >>> to take on dog travel with renewed confidence. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Antonio >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> >>> >>>> Amy, Nicole and all, >>>> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >>>> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >>>> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >>>> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >>>> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >>>> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >>>> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >>>> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >>>> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >>>> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >>>> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >>>> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >>>> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >>>> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >>>> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >>>> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>>>> hello kurt, >>>>> >>>>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>>>> your >>>>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>>>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>>>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>>>> to >>>>> this topic. >>>>> >>>>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> hugs, >>>>> amy >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>>> >>>>> Dear list, >>>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/debbiewunder%40earthlink.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net Thu May 12 16:04:08 2011 From: gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net (Hai Nguyen Ly) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 11:04:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Toshiba Satellite A205-S5810 laptop, Pentium Dual, 2GB RAM, 120GB HDD - $250 Message-ID: <20F09376-73FA-4D7C-9AAA-724A1DBBA11A@sbcglobal.net> Greetings all, I am posting the following item for a friend. Please feel free to respond with any questions and or call: 347-422-7085. Regards: Hai *** This is a used laptop recently reformatted, in perfect condition. Works perfect. Specs: Processor: Intel® Pentium® Dual Core T2330 1.6 GHZ Memory: 2048MB (2GB) PC-5300 | Memory Slots available for Upgrade: 0 | Maximum RAM per available slot: 1024MB Hard Drive: 120GB 5400rpm Serial-ATA Optical Drives: DVD SuperMulti (+/-R double layer) drive supporting 11 formats Maximum speed and compatibility: CD-ROM (24x), CD-R (24x), CD-RW (10x), DVD-ROM (8x), DVD-R (Single Layer, (8x)), DVD-R (Double Layer, (4x)), DVD-RW (4x), DVD+R (Single Layer, (8x)), DVD+R (Double Layer, (4x)), DVD+RW (4x), DVDRAM (5x) Cache: 1 MB L2 Cache Screen: 15.4" WXGA TFT LCD TruBrite (Resolution: 1280 x 800 pixels) Graphics card: Intel Graphics Media Accelerator X3100 (358MB shared) Audio card: Sound Volume Control Dial Speakers: built-in Stereo Speakers Networking: Atheros (802.11b/g) wireless-LAN 10/100 Base-TX Ethernet modem Ports/Slots: microphone input port, ExpressCard/34/54 Slot, 5-in-1 Bridge Media Adapter, USB2.0, FireWire/iLink, VGA out (Monitor), Line-In, Ethernet Jack Mouse/Pointer: Touchpad Pointing Device Keyboard: 86 key US keyboard Battery [Life]: Lithium Ion 4000mAh [2.0hrs max] Power Req: 75W (19V 3.95A) 100-240V/50-60Hz Size: 14.3 x 10.5 x 1.32/1.55 inches Weight: 6.0 lbs (2.7 kg) OS: Microsoft® Windows® Vista Home Premium Website with more specs and pictures: http://www.clearanceclub.com/products/9307-Satellite-A205-S5810 From gpaikens at gmail.com Thu May 12 18:13:04 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 13:13:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] volunteering with homeless population In-Reply-To: <99DC5C36CFED45008D8C0F3C106AC817@OwnerPC> References: <99DC5C36CFED45008D8C0F3C106AC817@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <31D9BFA0-923F-428C-94B2-34624EAB5EC5@gmail.com> Hi Ashley, I have volunteered with a few different homeless shelters. In one, I helped with dinner, stayed the night, and helped with breakfast in the morning. I knew that serving would be difficult so I always volunteered to be the dish washer. Its not something I love doing but it was the most readily accessible job. After dinner we spent time with the men in the shelter and I usually brought a deck of braille cards to play spades with some of the men. Each of us had to take a 2 hour shift with a partner during the night to watch the video monitors and make sure everyone was ok. I couldn't monitor the cameras but I was able to help by talking to whoever my partner was to help keep them awake. At another shelter I helped sort and roll silverware before the meal was served and helped serve drinks during the meal. The drinks were in those big coolers with a spout at the bottom and I was able to judge when the cup was full by the weight, instead of using my finger like I do in my own drink. There are lots of ways you can participate and contribute. Finding a specific shelter and discovering how they do things will probably be the best way to figure out how you can help. Take a friend or a family member who is familiar with your abilities with you to help identify possible ways you can help. Or arrange to show up a little early to meet with someone at the shelter and have them show you around before it is time to start. I applaud you for wanting to serve in this way. Service is character building and I think its a great way to change attitudes toward blindness. -Greg On May 11, 2011, at 8:51 PM, wrote: > Hi all, > > Have any of you worked at soup kitchens or food pantries? How about an area where you either sort out clothes or give them out? > How did it go? If you are serving, how did you know when they were there? When my dad and I served at a shelter, they would line up > quietly. I did not always know when someone new was coming up. I have tunnel vision, so spotting a person was not always doable. My dad would say someone was there. They lined up together, but sometimes people came in later during that hour at random times. > Since we cannot read clothes tags or labels on items, I’m not sure we can sort food/clothes/everyday items. > I’ve not served at a soup kitchen, just shelters. I wonder if a soup kitchen is different and run more assembly line method. That would be easier. Each volunteer in the assembly line would serve an item and the plate would be passed down. > > Just asking so if I decide to volunteer, I know what alternative techniques others have used. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu May 12 21:12:50 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 17:12:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] gmail and Outlook 2003 problem Message-ID: <4dcc4d5b.1245960a.3102.4a9d@mx.google.com> Yeah, that's kind of important, * smile! Let me know if you have any more questions. Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serena Cucco" References: <2597044.20259.1305224516299.JavaMail.questionpro@qpmail> Message-ID: Hi, it's Joshua Lester. I canceled my subscription to the online stuff, for Learning Ally. Why, then, did I receive this E-mail? I'm kind of frustrated! Have any of you had to deal with this? Blessings, Joshua ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rose Crowell Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 11:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tell us what you think about Learning Ally's ReadHear software To: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu
Learning Ally, formerly known as Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic
Dear Member, You recently ordered a copy of our ReadHear software by gh from Learning Ally™, formerly known as Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic®. We would appreciate hearing about your experiences. http://questionpro.com/t/CJz6SZFHg6S Your feedback as a user plays a critical role in helping us make changes to improve our member offering. The survey takes about 5 to 10 minutes to complete and if you have any questions, you can contact us at research at LearningAlly.org. Thank you for your time and for helping us to continually improve our products and services. With kind regards, Rose Crowell Research Analyst Strategic Initiatives ___________________________________ Learning Ally™ Formerly Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic 20 Roszel Road | Princeton, NJ 08540 Office: 609.651.8544 rCrowell at LearningAlly.org www.LearningAlly.org __________________________________________________________________________ This email was sent to jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu on behalf of: Rose Crowell Learning Ally 20 Roszel Road Princeton, NJ 08540 USA Unsubscribe: http://www.questionpro.com//akira/unsubscribeEmail.do?id=104109167 Report Abuse: http://www.questionpro.com/akira/rptabuse/1-70936918-1331779-104109167 From ignasicambra at gmail.com Thu May 12 22:22:52 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 18:22:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: References: <317475869.13423.1304891314579.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Kirt, I'm sure 6-9 months of training would end up being useful in ways that I can't imagine right now because sometimes we are not even aware of things that we can improve in. All I'm saying is that I feel as though in a month or two I could get enough training to see substantial improvements in the areas where I know I need them. In other words, the opportunity cost of staying in a center for 9 months seems to high for me at this point. I think that it's probably easier to do these things after college if, as you say, you are basically just fine right now and you know you will do well even if you don't get training right away. In any case, I'm sure all of us do things in different ways, and what works for me might not work for you. Please do let us know what you do though!!! IC On May 12, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Debby, > My notetaking, braille, technology and listening skills are > definitely above par-they'd give me an eagle or a hole in one. If > we're sticking with the golf analogy, my o&m skills and daily living > skills are maybe at a bogie...where a couple years ago they would've > got me kicked off the tour! ;) > Warmly, > Kirt > Ignasi, > I do see your point. But could you deny that 6-9 months training > would benefit you more than a month in the areas like cooking where > you say you lack? > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/12/11, Debbie Wunder wrote: >> Hello, blindness skills that you will need to be successful in college or on >> the job are things such as note taking, writing, Brailled, study skills, >> mobility, and good listening skills. Do you feel that these skills are >> already homed? When I was younger and went to college, I never gave these >> things much thought, but every one of them are a huge part of what will be >> your succes in life. If they are not up to parr, then I would go to the >> center. By the way people always use the term in the real world, I am not >> sure what isn't the real world. Learning skills certainly is, going to >> school certainly is, and later find employment is. Never sell short what you >> are working to improve upon or what you are learning. >> >> Good Luck! >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >> To: "Antonio Guimaraes" ; "National Association of >> Blind Students mailing list" >> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 9:58 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >> >>> To all, >>> Very good points-I know I probably am better off getting a dog after >>> training. And I'm really considering it-the more I think about it, >>> the more I'm leaning towards that option. But here's the thing. Due >>> to rehab bureaucracy and slowness (namely, taking a month to even get >>> in touch with me to schedule an appointment...but let's not go >>> there), It's pretty much not possible for me to do training on the >>> original time table I wanted to. And, the more I think about it, the >>> more I'm seeing a lot of cons to training (although I'm still probably >>> going to do it). In a lot of areas the center spends a lot of time >>> on, my skills are superb. Those that need work are improving at a >>> very good clip already-I'm already independent enough to do pretty >>> much whatever I want to do, whenever I want to do it, without too much >>> trouble. My o&m isn't great, but it's good and getting better fast. >>> My daily living isn't all that good but it's improving at a rapid clip >>> as well because I'm having to figure out stuff on my own and I'm >>> making tones of progress there. >>> So my question is this...and let's drop talking about a dog for a >>> minute because I don't know what to do about that just yet. While >>> training would certainly be beneficial, I've come to realize my >>> biggest hinderence is a lack of confidence rather than a lack of >>> skill-I've been doing more o&m and cooking recently, and my skills are >>> a lot better than I thought they were. While I'm not denying training >>> would give me the confidence I'd need-would I gain that confidence >>> working on the skills I already have in a real-world environment? >>> (namely college) I mean-would it be a better use of my time to go to >>> training and re-learn a lot of what I already know and gain >>> confidence, or would I be better served spending those 6-9 months in a >>> college classroom, in my own apartment, practicing and improving the >>> considerable skills I already have and gaining confidence that way? I >>> honestly don't know. I'm not denying I need serious improvement in >>> some areas (and I could improve even on the skills I excell at), but >>> it's not as if I'm starting from scratch-and I honestly feel like I >>> know enough to learn anything else I need to know with practice. On >>> the one hand, training would improve those skills faster than college >>> would-I'd certainly come out of it more efficient and empowered. On >>> the other hand-I'm already quite efficient and empowered already, and >>> I know my efficiency and empowerment will improve with time so long as >>> I keep working at it. Thoughts, anyone? Would I gain more by keeping >>> up with my college education, or going to a center? I'm really not >>> sure anymore. >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/11/11, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: >>>> Kirt, >>>> >>>> You're probably better off geting a guide dog after your training at CCB. >>>> >>>> While CCB is known for being the most dog-friendly of NFB training >>>> centers, >>>> you still spend most of your day without your guide, and attend class >>>> travel >>>> the building and such with your long cane. >>>> >>>> You're free to leave the the training grounds with your guide dog in toe, >>>> and will use the dog on your activities outside the formal training >>>> setting. >>>> >>>> The time you spend away from your dog is time your dog is just sitting >>>> with >>>> another instructor, not bonding with you, unlearning good behavior, and >>>> forgetting its place in the pack of two. >>>> >>>> Other people, including the dog sitter for the day take your place as the >>>> alfa dog, and this does nothing for your team. >>>> >>>> this is just how I see the picture. I have been at CCB long enough, but >>>> others may have a different story. >>>> >>>> You'd need only ask Julie Deeden about the policies and she'll tell you >>>> all >>>> about them. No dogs durring the training day. Dog stays with someone >>>> else, >>>> and not with handler, and such. >>>> >>>> So get some good training under your belt, then interview and train with >>>> a >>>> dog after, I say. You'll have superb cane travel skills, and will be >>>> ready >>>> to take on dog travel with renewed confidence. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Antonio >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>> >>>> >>>>> Amy, Nicole and all, >>>>> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >>>>> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >>>>> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >>>>> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >>>>> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >>>>> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >>>>> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >>>>> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >>>>> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >>>>> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >>>>> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >>>>> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >>>>> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >>>>> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >>>>> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >>>>> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>>>>> hello kurt, >>>>>> >>>>>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>>>>> your >>>>>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>>>>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>>>>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>>>>> to >>>>>> this topic. >>>>>> >>>>>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> hugs, >>>>>> amy >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear list, >>>>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/debbiewunder%40earthlink.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri May 13 01:28:51 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 21:28:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Tell us what you think about Learning Ally's ReadHearsoftware In-Reply-To: References: <2597044.20259.1305224516299.JavaMail.questionpro@qpmail> Message-ID: <1E58E4031CB844288C80301B0D6AD753@OwnerPC> Josh, You need to make sure your email address was removed from their electronic list. I think with every newsletter there is an unsubscribe link. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 5:56 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Tell us what you think about Learning Ally's ReadHearsoftware Hi, it's Joshua Lester. I canceled my subscription to the online stuff, for Learning Ally. Why, then, did I receive this E-mail? I'm kind of frustrated! Have any of you had to deal with this? Blessings, Joshua ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rose Crowell Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 11:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tell us what you think about Learning Ally's ReadHear software To: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu
Learning Ally, formerly known as Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic
Dear Member, You recently ordered a copy of our ReadHear software by gh from Learning Ally™, formerly known as Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic®. We would appreciate hearing about your experiences. http://questionpro.com/t/CJz6SZFHg6S Your feedback as a user plays a critical role in helping us make changes to improve our member offering. The survey takes about 5 to 10 minutes to complete and if you have any questions, you can contact us at research at LearningAlly.org. Thank you for your time and for helping us to continually improve our products and services. With kind regards, Rose Crowell Research Analyst Strategic Initiatives ___________________________________ Learning Ally™ Formerly Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic 20 Roszel Road | Princeton, NJ 08540 Office: 609.651.8544 rCrowell at LearningAlly.org www.LearningAlly.org __________________________________________________________________________ This email was sent to jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu on behalf of: Rose Crowell Learning Ally 20 Roszel Road Princeton, NJ 08540 USA Unsubscribe: http://www.questionpro.com//akira/unsubscribeEmail.do?id=104109167 Report Abuse: http://www.questionpro.com/akira/rptabuse/1-70936918-1331779-104109167 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From k7uij at panix.com Fri May 13 01:33:58 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 18:33:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Tell us what you think about Learning Ally's ReadHear software In-Reply-To: References: <2597044.20259.1305224516299.JavaMail.questionpro@qpmail> Message-ID: <008f01cc110d$d55a1740$800e45c0$@panix.com> I think there's a separate procedure to unsubscribe from the list. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 2:56 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Tell us what you think about Learning Ally's ReadHear software Hi, it's Joshua Lester. I canceled my subscription to the online stuff, for Learning Ally. Why, then, did I receive this E-mail? I'm kind of frustrated! Have any of you had to deal with this? Blessings, Joshua ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rose Crowell Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 11:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tell us what you think about Learning Ally's ReadHear software To: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu
Learning Ally, formerly known as Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic
Dear Member, You recently ordered a copy of our ReadHear software by gh from Learning AllyT, formerly known as Recording for the Blind & DyslexicR. We would appreciate hearing about your experiences. http://questionpro.com/t/CJz6SZFHg6S Your feedback as a user plays a critical role in helping us make changes to improve our member offering. The survey takes about 5 to 10 minutes to complete and if you have any questions, you can contact us at research at LearningAlly.org. Thank you for your time and for helping us to continually improve our products and services. With kind regards, Rose Crowell Research Analyst Strategic Initiatives ___________________________________ Learning AllyT Formerly Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic 20 Roszel Road | Princeton, NJ 08540 Office: 609.651.8544 rCrowell at LearningAlly.org www.LearningAlly.org __________________________________________________________________________ This email was sent to jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu on behalf of: Rose Crowell Learning Ally 20 Roszel Road Princeton, NJ 08540 USA Unsubscribe: http://www.questionpro.com//akira/unsubscribeEmail.do?id=104109167 Report Abuse: http://www.questionpro.com/akira/rptabuse/1-70936918-1331779-104109167 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Fri May 13 02:08:27 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 21:08:27 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Tell us what you think about Learning Ally's ReadHearsoftware In-Reply-To: <1E58E4031CB844288C80301B0D6AD753@OwnerPC> References: <2597044.20259.1305224516299.JavaMail.questionpro@qpmail> <1E58E4031CB844288C80301B0D6AD753@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Mike, and Ashley, thanks for the response. I read the E-mail, and it's a notification about some software that I was supposed to have ordered. I didn't order any software. I think my college did, without my permission. I took care of it. Blessings, Joshua On 5/12/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Josh, > You need to make sure your email address was removed from their electronic > list. I think with every newsletter there is an unsubscribe link. > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 5:56 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Tell us what you think about Learning Ally's > ReadHearsoftware > > Hi, it's Joshua Lester. > I canceled my subscription to the online stuff, for Learning Ally. > Why, then, did I receive this E-mail? > I'm kind of frustrated! > Have any of you had to deal with this? > Blessings, Joshua > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Rose Crowell > Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 11:21:56 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: Tell us what you think about Learning Ally's ReadHear software > To: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu > >
src="http://www.questionpro.com//userimages/sub-2/1331779/Learning-Ally-Logo-wRFBD-smaller.jpg" > alt="Learning Ally, formerly known as Recording for the Blind & > Dyslexic">
> > Dear Member, > > You recently ordered a copy of our ReadHear software by gh from > Learning Ally™, formerly known as Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic®. > We would appreciate hearing about your experiences. > http://questionpro.com/t/CJz6SZFHg6S > > Your feedback as a user plays a critical role in helping us make > changes to improve our member offering. The survey takes about 5 to 10 > minutes to complete and if you have any questions, you can contact us > at research at LearningAlly.org. > > Thank you for your time and for helping us to continually improve our > products and services. > > With kind regards, > > Rose Crowell > Research Analyst > Strategic Initiatives > ___________________________________ > > Learning Ally™ > Formerly Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic > 20 Roszel Road | Princeton, NJ 08540 > Office: 609.651.8544 > rCrowell at LearningAlly.org > www.LearningAlly.org > > __________________________________________________________________________ > This email was sent to jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu on behalf of: > > Rose Crowell > Learning Ally > 20 Roszel Road > Princeton, NJ 08540 > USA > > Unsubscribe: > http://www.questionpro.com//akira/unsubscribeEmail.do?id=104109167 > > > Report Abuse: > http://www.questionpro.com/akira/rptabuse/1-70936918-1331779-104109167 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Fri May 13 02:18:35 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 22:18:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Tell us what you think about Learning Ally's ReadHearsoftware In-Reply-To: References: <2597044.20259.1305224516299.JavaMail.questionpro@qpmail> <1E58E4031CB844288C80301B0D6AD753@OwnerPC> Message-ID: If you ever have trouble unsubscribing from a newsletter of listserv, try out unsubscribe.com. It has a free account option and you just forward the e-mail to the address and it unsubscribes you. It has worked great for me! ~Jewel On 5/12/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > Mike, and Ashley, thanks for the response. > I read the E-mail, and it's a notification about some software that I > was supposed to have ordered. > I didn't order any software. > I think my college did, without my permission. > I took care of it. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 5/12/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Josh, >> You need to make sure your email address was removed from their electronic >> list. I think with every newsletter there is an unsubscribe link. >> Ashley >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joshua Lester >> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 5:56 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Tell us what you think about Learning Ally's >> ReadHearsoftware >> >> Hi, it's Joshua Lester. >> I canceled my subscription to the online stuff, for Learning Ally. >> Why, then, did I receive this E-mail? >> I'm kind of frustrated! >> Have any of you had to deal with this? >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Rose Crowell >> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 11:21:56 -0700 (PDT) >> Subject: Tell us what you think about Learning Ally's ReadHear software >> To: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu >> >>
> src="http://www.questionpro.com//userimages/sub-2/1331779/Learning-Ally-Logo-wRFBD-smaller.jpg" >> alt="Learning Ally, formerly known as Recording for the Blind & >> Dyslexic">
>> >> Dear Member, >> >> You recently ordered a copy of our ReadHear software by gh from >> Learning Ally™, formerly known as Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic®. >> We would appreciate hearing about your experiences. >> http://questionpro.com/t/CJz6SZFHg6S >> >> Your feedback as a user plays a critical role in helping us make >> changes to improve our member offering. The survey takes about 5 to 10 >> minutes to complete and if you have any questions, you can contact us >> at research at LearningAlly.org. >> >> Thank you for your time and for helping us to continually improve our >> products and services. >> >> With kind regards, >> >> Rose Crowell >> Research Analyst >> Strategic Initiatives >> ___________________________________ >> >> Learning Ally™ >> Formerly Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic >> 20 Roszel Road | Princeton, NJ 08540 >> Office: 609.651.8544 >> rCrowell at LearningAlly.org >> www.LearningAlly.org >> >> __________________________________________________________________________ >> This email was sent to jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu on behalf of: >> >> Rose Crowell >> Learning Ally >> 20 Roszel Road >> Princeton, NJ 08540 >> USA >> >> Unsubscribe: >> http://www.questionpro.com//akira/unsubscribeEmail.do?id=104109167 >> >> >> Report Abuse: >> http://www.questionpro.com/akira/rptabuse/1-70936918-1331779-104109167 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Fri May 13 02:21:49 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 21:21:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Tell us what you think about Learning Ally's ReadHearsoftware In-Reply-To: References: <2597044.20259.1305224516299.JavaMail.questionpro@qpmail> <1E58E4031CB844288C80301B0D6AD753@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Thanks for that helpful response, as well. Blessings, joshua On 5/12/11, Jewel wrote: > If you ever have trouble unsubscribing from a newsletter of listserv, > try out unsubscribe.com. It has a free account option and you just > forward the e-mail to the address and it unsubscribes you. It has > worked great for me! > > ~Jewel > > On 5/12/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >> Mike, and Ashley, thanks for the response. >> I read the E-mail, and it's a notification about some software that I >> was supposed to have ordered. >> I didn't order any software. >> I think my college did, without my permission. >> I took care of it. >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 5/12/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>> Josh, >>> You need to make sure your email address was removed from their >>> electronic >>> list. I think with every newsletter there is an unsubscribe link. >>> Ashley >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Joshua Lester >>> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 5:56 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Tell us what you think about Learning Ally's >>> ReadHearsoftware >>> >>> Hi, it's Joshua Lester. >>> I canceled my subscription to the online stuff, for Learning Ally. >>> Why, then, did I receive this E-mail? >>> I'm kind of frustrated! >>> Have any of you had to deal with this? >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: Rose Crowell >>> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 11:21:56 -0700 (PDT) >>> Subject: Tell us what you think about Learning Ally's ReadHear software >>> To: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu >>> >>>
>> src="http://www.questionpro.com//userimages/sub-2/1331779/Learning-Ally-Logo-wRFBD-smaller.jpg" >>> alt="Learning Ally, formerly known as Recording for the Blind & >>> Dyslexic">
>>> >>> Dear Member, >>> >>> You recently ordered a copy of our ReadHear software by gh from >>> Learning Ally™, formerly known as Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic®. >>> We would appreciate hearing about your experiences. >>> http://questionpro.com/t/CJz6SZFHg6S >>> >>> Your feedback as a user plays a critical role in helping us make >>> changes to improve our member offering. The survey takes about 5 to 10 >>> minutes to complete and if you have any questions, you can contact us >>> at research at LearningAlly.org. >>> >>> Thank you for your time and for helping us to continually improve our >>> products and services. >>> >>> With kind regards, >>> >>> Rose Crowell >>> Research Analyst >>> Strategic Initiatives >>> ___________________________________ >>> >>> Learning Ally™ >>> Formerly Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic >>> 20 Roszel Road | Princeton, NJ 08540 >>> Office: 609.651.8544 >>> rCrowell at LearningAlly.org >>> www.LearningAlly.org >>> >>> __________________________________________________________________________ >>> This email was sent to jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu on behalf of: >>> >>> Rose Crowell >>> Learning Ally >>> 20 Roszel Road >>> Princeton, NJ 08540 >>> USA >>> >>> Unsubscribe: >>> http://www.questionpro.com//akira/unsubscribeEmail.do?id=104109167 >>> >>> >>> Report Abuse: >>> http://www.questionpro.com/akira/rptabuse/1-70936918-1331779-104109167 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From k7uij at panix.com Fri May 13 02:43:32 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 19:43:32 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: <7D866523-CFE5-46C1-8851-5AB1048D8FFA@gmail.com> References: <317475869.13423.1304891314579.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <7D866523-CFE5-46C1-8851-5AB1048D8FFA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000601cc1117$8d4dfc00$a7e9f400$@panix.com> Ignaci: There are a number of things involving this thread that are being left unsaid. One of them is that we view our NFB-oriented training centers not merely as facilities for blindness skills training but,rather, as attitude factories. We believe that society's mistaken notions and erroneous stereotypes about the blind are so pervasive that we, the blind, can't help but buy into them, at least to some extent. If one goes to a NFB center where one is surrounded by high expectations, encouragement and constant emphasis on stretching oneself to do things one believes he/she cannot do so that one is de-programmed from society's discount of the blind, one is in a far better position both to get the full benefit of skills training and to go out and grab the world by the horns and insist upon first-class treatment -- not because one deserves to have it because of some notion of fairness but because one *expects* it as a matter of belief and right. Call this brain-washing if you wish; NFB has been accused of this many times in the past. But we've found that out of our attitude factories come well-adjusted blind persons who are ready and eager to take their places in society willing to exercise both the rights and the responsibilities of citizenship. Mike Freeman -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ignasi Cambra Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 3:32 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs Kirt, In my personal opinion, I feel as though you would be better off just staying in college. If things are working well for you and you think you're improving, I don't see why you would want to postpone everything 9 months. I never received any formal training other than what I learned from my sighted parents while I was growing up, and some o&m instruction from a teacher here in Spain when I was pretty young. I was able to get a guide dog really early and at this point O&M is not a problem for me. Even though I'm aware that my skills in other things such as cooking are not the best, I would not spend 9 months somewhere just to learn those things. There are probably faster ways of getting it done, and I don't feel as though I would benefit enough from a full 9 month program. What I would consider though would be to spend a month or so at a training center so that I can get better at certain things. I don't even know if that's possible, but whenever I have time and I don't have any concerts to play in a couple of months I will try to see what options I have. Many times I feel like blindness skills are more about having common sense than anything else. After all, O&M, daily living etc are not tremendously complicated things which cannot be mastered with experience and by living in the real world :). Again these are just my opinions and everyone will probably have different ideas. In any case, I find this to be an interesting subject. IC On May 11, 2011, at 10:58 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > To all, > Very good points-I know I probably am better off getting a dog after > training. And I'm really considering it-the more I think about it, > the more I'm leaning towards that option. But here's the thing. Due > to rehab bureaucracy and slowness (namely, taking a month to even get > in touch with me to schedule an appointment...but let's not go > there), It's pretty much not possible for me to do training on the > original time table I wanted to. And, the more I think about it, the > more I'm seeing a lot of cons to training (although I'm still probably > going to do it). In a lot of areas the center spends a lot of time > on, my skills are superb. Those that need work are improving at a > very good clip already-I'm already independent enough to do pretty > much whatever I want to do, whenever I want to do it, without too much > trouble. My o&m isn't great, but it's good and getting better fast. > My daily living isn't all that good but it's improving at a rapid clip > as well because I'm having to figure out stuff on my own and I'm > making tones of progress there. > So my question is this...and let's drop talking about a dog for a > minute because I don't know what to do about that just yet. While > training would certainly be beneficial, I've come to realize my > biggest hinderence is a lack of confidence rather than a lack of > skill-I've been doing more o&m and cooking recently, and my skills are > a lot better than I thought they were. While I'm not denying training > would give me the confidence I'd need-would I gain that confidence > working on the skills I already have in a real-world environment? > (namely college) I mean-would it be a better use of my time to go to > training and re-learn a lot of what I already know and gain > confidence, or would I be better served spending those 6-9 months in a > college classroom, in my own apartment, practicing and improving the > considerable skills I already have and gaining confidence that way? I > honestly don't know. I'm not denying I need serious improvement in > some areas (and I could improve even on the skills I excell at), but > it's not as if I'm starting from scratch-and I honestly feel like I > know enough to learn anything else I need to know with practice. On > the one hand, training would improve those skills faster than college > would-I'd certainly come out of it more efficient and empowered. On > the other hand-I'm already quite efficient and empowered already, and > I know my efficiency and empowerment will improve with time so long as > I keep working at it. Thoughts, anyone? Would I gain more by keeping > up with my college education, or going to a center? I'm really not > sure anymore. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/11/11, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: >> Kirt, >> >> You're probably better off geting a guide dog after your training at CCB. >> >> While CCB is known for being the most dog-friendly of NFB training centers, >> you still spend most of your day without your guide, and attend class travel >> the building and such with your long cane. >> >> You're free to leave the the training grounds with your guide dog in toe, >> and will use the dog on your activities outside the formal training setting. >> >> The time you spend away from your dog is time your dog is just sitting with >> another instructor, not bonding with you, unlearning good behavior, and >> forgetting its place in the pack of two. >> >> Other people, including the dog sitter for the day take your place as the >> alfa dog, and this does nothing for your team. >> >> this is just how I see the picture. I have been at CCB long enough, but >> others may have a different story. >> >> You'd need only ask Julie Deeden about the policies and she'll tell you all >> about them. No dogs durring the training day. Dog stays with someone else, >> and not with handler, and such. >> >> So get some good training under your belt, then interview and train with a >> dog after, I say. You'll have superb cane travel skills, and will be ready >> to take on dog travel with renewed confidence. >> >> Best, >> >> Antonio >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >> >> >>> Amy, Nicole and all, >>> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >>> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >>> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >>> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >>> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >>> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >>> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >>> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >>> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >>> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >>> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >>> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >>> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >>> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >>> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >>> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>>> hello kurt, >>>> >>>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>>> your >>>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>>> to >>>> this topic. >>>> >>>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >>>> >>>> >>>> hugs, >>>> amy >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>> >>>> Dear list, >>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.n et >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail. com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From liziswhatis at hotmail.com Fri May 13 05:55:40 2011 From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 00:55:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Membership Committee Presents: A Call on Technology! Message-ID: Hello again NABS (from your Membership Committee): It goes beep, bop, boop, it clicks, it hums, and today, it even talks to you. It's all around us, and it's technology. We use it every day to keep in touch with friends and family, do assignments for school, and all sorts of other things. This month's conference call will focus on devices we can use and the methods by which we can use them for school, home, on the road, and even work. In no particular order, we will have Dale Sczweck (pronounced Shweck) speaking to the recreational side of technology, our own Liz Bottner on the academic side of it all, and Tony Olivero on the professional/work side of things. Here's the info because we know you can't wait. Who: The NABS Membership Committee, of course What: Conference call on technology use at school, work, and everywhere else. When: Sunday May 22 at 7:00 PM ET. Where: (712) 775-7100, followed by the pass code 257963. Why: Because wherever you are, you can use technology to your advantage, and we can get you started in how to do that. We look forward to a great conversation, great insight, and neat strategies from our speakers and you. So why not join us? You can really learn a lot. See you there! Sincerely, Your wonderful NABS Membership Committee Liz Bottner Co-Chair, NABS Membership Committee Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Fri May 13 16:00:04 2011 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 10:00:04 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: [DRBA] Scholarship for Law Students with Disabilities at Denver Message-ID: <45972C2EAF334794805B17BB9E02E5CB@labarre> Greetings, please pass the word to thos who may be interested in such things. We're always happy to have more good folks here in the Mile High City. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rovner, Laura" To: Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 8:45 PM Subject: [DRBA] Scholarship for Law Students with Disabilities at Denver Friends, Below is a description of a scholarship at the University of Denver College of Law open to law students with disabilities. Please feel free to distribute widely. Thanks. -- Laura -- Laura L. Rovner Associate Professor of Law & Interim Director of Clinical Programs Director, Civil Rights Clinic University of Denver Sturm College of Law 2255 E. Evans Ave. Denver, CO 80208 303.871.6140 lrovner at law.du.edu Charles M. Johnson Memorial Scholarship Fund An endowed fund to provide support to a law student with extraordinary merit (high scores or grades) and need. Preference is given to a student whose physical disabilities or handicaps require him or her to need reasonable assistance to attend law school, with specific preference to individuals who use a wheelchair. Lacey McFall Student Financial Management University of Denver Sturm College of Law 303.871.6536 REMINDER: The DRBA listserv is intended to facilitate open discussion and sharing of ideas. Members need to feel confident that their discussions will not be distributed beyond the group unnecessarily. PLEASE CONSULT WITH THE SENDER(S) BEFORE FORWARDING ANY LISTSERV DISCUSSIONS BEYOND THE DRBA GROUP. From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri May 13 18:57:37 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 11:57:37 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Membership Committee Presents: A Call on Technology! Message-ID: Hello again NABS (from your Membership Committee): It goes beep, bop, boop, it clicks, it hums, and today, it even talks to you. It's all around us, and it's technology. We use it every day to keep in touch with friends and family, do assignments for school, and all sorts of other things. This month's conference call will focus on devices we can use and the methods by which we can use them for school, home, on the road, and even work. In no particular order, we will have Dale Sczweck (pronounced Shweck) speaking to the recreational side of technology, our own Liz Bottner on the academic side of it all, and Tony Olivero on the professional/work side of things. Here's the info because we know you can't wait. Who: The NABS Membership Committee, of course What: Conference call on technology use at school, work, and everywhere else. When: Sunday May 22 at 7:00 PM ET. Where: (712) 775-7100, followed by the pass code 257963. Why: Because wherever you are, you can use technology to your advantage, and we can get you started in how to do that. We look forward to a great conversation, great insight, and neat strategies from our speakers and you. So why not  join us? You can really learn a lot. See you there! Sincerely, Your wonderful NABS Membership Committee -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From BJLejeune at colled.msstate.edu Fri May 13 19:42:19 2011 From: BJLejeune at colled.msstate.edu (B.J. LeJeune) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 14:42:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ann Macy Sullivan Scholarship In-Reply-To: <4dcc4d5b.1245960a.3102.4a9d@mx.google.com> References: <4dcc4d5b.1245960a.3102.4a9d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4DCD434B020000F000021167@mailhost.groupwise.msstate.edu> Here is a great opportunity for someone either interested in getting a PhD or someone who is looking for some research experience after completing their PhD. This is specifically designed to encourage persons who are blind or visually impaired to be able to obtain education and experience in the field of blindness rehabilitation. Our university programs need more PhD's and this is a great opportunity to invest in the future. Besides, Starkville MS is a great place to live! Thanks, BJ LeJeune Mississippi State University Applications Invited for Research Training Program Mississippi State University’s Research and Training Center on Blindness and Low Vision (MSU-RTC), an independent center within the College of Education, is seeking a Ph.D. graduate student or post-doctoral candidate as the new Anne Sullivan Macy Scholar beginning in the Fall of 2011 or Spring of 2012. This program honors the unique contribution of Anne Sullivan Macy to the extraordinary educational experience of Helen Keller. A candidate who is blind or visually impaired is preferred, but applicants with significant experience in the blindness field who are not blind or visually impaired will also be considered. Candidates must have or be seeking a Ph.D. in the social sciences (e.g., rehabilitation counseling, psychology, social work, sociology, special education). Since 1981, MSU-RTC’s mission has been to enhance employment and independent living outcomes for individuals who are blind or visually impaired. In keeping with this mission, the goal of this training program is to support development of a scientist-practitioner who is well grounded in state-of-the-science research methods and practices, focused within the field of blindness and low vision. As a post-doctoral position, the program offers salary with full benefits and a tuition waiver for up to six credit hours. A student working toward a Ph.D. receives a full tuition waiver and monthly stipend. In either case, the recipient will participate in ongoing applied research, will have opportunities to participate in knowledge translation activities with professional and consumer advocacy organizations, state vocational rehabilitation agencies for the blind, and will attend regional and national training conferences. The Anne Sullivan Macy Research Training Program was established in 1992, supported in part by funding from the National Institute on Disability and Rehabilitation Research (NIDRR). Previous award recipients have gone on to work as researchers, professors, and administrators. The very first Anne Sullivan Macy Scholar, Dr. Brenda Cavenaugh, served as Interim Director of MSU-RTC from 2007 – 2010. The current research training program will be funded under MSU-RTC’s current 5-year NIDRR grant: Rehabilitation Research and Training Center (RRTC) on Employment Outcomes for Individuals Who are Blind or Visually Impaired. To learn more and to apply for the Anne Sullivan Macy Research Training Program, visit MSU-RTC’s website at http://www.blind.msstate.edu and select the “Employment Opportunities” button on the front page. Potential applicants are also encouraged to contact Dr. Michele C. McDonnall, MSU-RTC Interim Director, at (662) 325-2001 or via email at M.Mcdonnall at msstate.edu From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sat May 14 00:59:19 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 17:59:19 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: <000601cc1117$8d4dfc00$a7e9f400$@panix.com> References: <317475869.13423.1304891314579.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <7D866523-CFE5-46C1-8851-5AB1048D8FFA@gmail.com> <000601cc1117$8d4dfc00$a7e9f400$@panix.com> Message-ID: Ultimately, I think it's important to consider the rules of engagement here and work with or not with them if that's how you feel. i will say, for the sake of discussion that many people go into a training center environment with the idea that they know all of what they need to know in a certain area, or in the majority of the core areas of instruction. To some this may or may not be true, but I doubt that even experts stop learning. I've always looked at the training that our three centers provide as essential tools from which we can build the foundation of our confidence. It is true that we won't remember every single thing that we are taught, but we will learn that we can feel more comfortable with a slate, or that the stove is a wonderful tool, if used safely, that power tools are things that blind people can use, you can conduct large research tasks on the computer using a screen reader, or take on that scary intersection using your alternitive techniques and a cane. I don't think this means that you (not kirt, but in general) should be discouraged from taking a guide to a center, but to be aware of what that may mean for you both as a team, and your development as a confident blind person (this also impacts you both as a team). We in the National Federation of the Blind believe that the successful blind person has the skills and confidence in Home management/activities of daily living, access technology, Braille reading and writing (both with the brailler and the slate), and Cane travel. The belief shared at our three centers is that emurtion into a program that teaches these skills utilizing non-visual techniques will yield the optimum outcome for the consumer. Have people gained these skills and confidence, and the positive philosiphy of blindness without having attended an NFB center? sure they have, and I encourage one to consider those avanues as well as LCB, CCB or BLIND inc. just some thoughts. Best, Darian On 5/12/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > Ignaci: > > There are a number of things involving this thread that are being left > unsaid. One of them is that we view our NFB-oriented training centers not > merely as facilities for blindness skills training but,rather, as attitude > factories. We believe that society's mistaken notions and erroneous > stereotypes about the blind are so pervasive that we, the blind, can't help > but buy into them, at least to some extent. If one goes to a NFB center > where one is surrounded by high expectations, encouragement and constant > emphasis on stretching oneself to do things one believes he/she cannot do so > that one is de-programmed from society's discount of the blind, one is in a > far better position both to get the full benefit of skills training and to > go out and grab the world by the horns and insist upon first-class treatment > -- not because one deserves to have it because of some notion of fairness > but because one *expects* it as a matter of belief and right. > > Call this brain-washing if you wish; NFB has been accused of this many times > in the past. But we've found that out of our attitude factories come > well-adjusted blind persons who are ready and eager to take their places in > society willing to exercise both the rights and the responsibilities of > citizenship. > > Mike Freeman > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Ignasi Cambra > Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 3:32 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > > Kirt, > In my personal opinion, I feel as though you would be better off just > staying in college. If things are working well for you and you think you're > improving, I don't see why you would want to postpone everything 9 months. I > never received any formal training other than what I learned from my sighted > parents while I was growing up, and some o&m instruction from a teacher here > in Spain when I was pretty young. I was able to get a guide dog really early > and at this point O&M is not a problem for me. Even though I'm aware that my > skills in other things such as cooking are not the best, I would not spend 9 > months somewhere just to learn those things. There are probably faster ways > of getting it done, and I don't feel as though I would benefit enough from a > full 9 month program. > What I would consider though would be to spend a month or so at a training > center so that I can get better at certain things. I don't even know if > that's possible, but whenever I have time and I don't have any concerts to > play in a couple of months I will try to see what options I have. > Many times I feel like blindness skills are more about having common sense > than anything else. After all, O&M, daily living etc are not tremendously > complicated things which cannot be mastered with experience and by living in > the real world :). > Again these are just my opinions and everyone will probably have different > ideas. In any case, I find this to be an interesting subject. > > IC > On May 11, 2011, at 10:58 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >> To all, >> Very good points-I know I probably am better off getting a dog after >> training. And I'm really considering it-the more I think about it, >> the more I'm leaning towards that option. But here's the thing. Due >> to rehab bureaucracy and slowness (namely, taking a month to even get >> in touch with me to schedule an appointment...but let's not go >> there), It's pretty much not possible for me to do training on the >> original time table I wanted to. And, the more I think about it, the >> more I'm seeing a lot of cons to training (although I'm still probably >> going to do it). In a lot of areas the center spends a lot of time >> on, my skills are superb. Those that need work are improving at a >> very good clip already-I'm already independent enough to do pretty >> much whatever I want to do, whenever I want to do it, without too much >> trouble. My o&m isn't great, but it's good and getting better fast. >> My daily living isn't all that good but it's improving at a rapid clip >> as well because I'm having to figure out stuff on my own and I'm >> making tones of progress there. >> So my question is this...and let's drop talking about a dog for a >> minute because I don't know what to do about that just yet. While >> training would certainly be beneficial, I've come to realize my >> biggest hinderence is a lack of confidence rather than a lack of >> skill-I've been doing more o&m and cooking recently, and my skills are >> a lot better than I thought they were. While I'm not denying training >> would give me the confidence I'd need-would I gain that confidence >> working on the skills I already have in a real-world environment? >> (namely college) I mean-would it be a better use of my time to go to >> training and re-learn a lot of what I already know and gain >> confidence, or would I be better served spending those 6-9 months in a >> college classroom, in my own apartment, practicing and improving the >> considerable skills I already have and gaining confidence that way? I >> honestly don't know. I'm not denying I need serious improvement in >> some areas (and I could improve even on the skills I excell at), but >> it's not as if I'm starting from scratch-and I honestly feel like I >> know enough to learn anything else I need to know with practice. On >> the one hand, training would improve those skills faster than college >> would-I'd certainly come out of it more efficient and empowered. On >> the other hand-I'm already quite efficient and empowered already, and >> I know my efficiency and empowerment will improve with time so long as >> I keep working at it. Thoughts, anyone? Would I gain more by keeping >> up with my college education, or going to a center? I'm really not >> sure anymore. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/11/11, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: >>> Kirt, >>> >>> You're probably better off geting a guide dog after your training at CCB. >>> >>> While CCB is known for being the most dog-friendly of NFB training > centers, >>> you still spend most of your day without your guide, and attend class > travel >>> the building and such with your long cane. >>> >>> You're free to leave the the training grounds with your guide dog in toe, >>> and will use the dog on your activities outside the formal training > setting. >>> >>> The time you spend away from your dog is time your dog is just sitting > with >>> another instructor, not bonding with you, unlearning good behavior, and >>> forgetting its place in the pack of two. >>> >>> Other people, including the dog sitter for the day take your place as the >>> alfa dog, and this does nothing for your team. >>> >>> this is just how I see the picture. I have been at CCB long enough, but >>> others may have a different story. >>> >>> You'd need only ask Julie Deeden about the policies and she'll tell you > all >>> about them. No dogs durring the training day. Dog stays with someone > else, >>> and not with handler, and such. >>> >>> So get some good training under your belt, then interview and train with > a >>> dog after, I say. You'll have superb cane travel skills, and will be > ready >>> to take on dog travel with renewed confidence. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Antonio >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> >>> >>>> Amy, Nicole and all, >>>> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >>>> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >>>> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >>>> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >>>> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >>>> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >>>> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >>>> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >>>> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >>>> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >>>> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >>>> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >>>> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >>>> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >>>> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >>>> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>>>> hello kurt, >>>>> >>>>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring >>>>> your >>>>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>>>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>>>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions >>>>> to >>>>> this topic. >>>>> >>>>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> hugs, >>>>> amy >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>>>> >>>>> Dear list, >>>>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>>>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>>>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>>>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>>>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>>>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>>>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>>>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>>>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.n > et >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma > il.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail. > com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma > il.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat May 14 01:58:29 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 21:58:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Membership Committee Presents: A Call on Technology! Message-ID: <4dcde1d0.8b8de50a.6702.571e@mx.google.com> Thanks, Liz and membership committee! I'm there!!! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note ----- Original Message ----- From: Liz Bottner liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: Hi Ashley and all. Ashley, you posted to the NABS list a couple days ago asking for some information on the Technology Bill of Rights. Being that I was at the LAW Program, I emailed Lauren McLarney, one of the government affairs specialists at the NFB and asked her to send me the draft language and fact sheet we got at the LAW Program in hardcopy Braille. She is a great resource for you (from personal experience) and, as you can see in the email, would be happy to help you in your making the ask to your Congressman. Attached is the information, and below is the email she sent. Her email, by the way, is: lmclarney at nfb.org. I would strongly suggest emailing her. To all the other members of the lists, I hope you'll find this information useful. I'm sure if any of you would also be interested in talking to your member of Congress, you can email her too. Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note ---- Original Message ------ From: "McLarney, Lauren" -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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ZCBKZXJuaWdhbiBJbnN0aXR1dGUsIHRoZSBmaXJzdCByZXNlYXJjaCBhbmQKdHJhaW5pbmcgY2Vu dGVyIGluIHRoZSBVbml0ZWQgU3RhdGVzIGZvciB0aGUgYmxpbmQgbGVkIGJ5IHRoZSAKYmxpbmQu CgoKCgoKCgoKCgoKLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0gbmV4dCBwYXJ0IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tCkEgbm9u LXRleHQgYXR0YWNobWVudCB3YXMgc2NydWJiZWQuLi4KTmFtZTogYXR0YWNobWVudApUeXBlOiBh cHBsaWNhdGlvbi9vY3RldC1zdHJlYW0KU2l6ZTogMTE1IGJ5dGVzCkRlc2M6IG5vdCBhdmFpbGFi bGUKVVJMOiA8aHR0cDovL25mYm5ldC5vcmcvcGlwZXJtYWlsL25hYnMtbF9uZmJuZXQub3JnL2F0 dGFjaG1lbnRzLzIwMTEwNTE0LzhiNmQzMWU5L2F0dGFjaG1lbnQuYT4K From liziswhatis at hotmail.com Sat May 14 17:27:47 2011 From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 12:27:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Adriana, My name is Liz Bottner. I am currently studying for a Masters degree in rehabilitation teaching for blind adults and assistive technology at Northern Illinois University. I will agree with what others have said on list, that your choice of university should be related to what school will work best for you and not which school would be the best option for a blind student. Challenges and accessibility barriers can be worked around with the right attitude and cooperation. While I have no experience of academic programs outside the Visual Disabilities department here, I am enjoying my experience. A lot of my accommodations are handled by my graduate department and so I don't necessary have too much experience with the office for students with disabilities. I have heard good and bad things about this office. The experiences that I have had with them have been good, though. I will reiterate what I said above in that any roadblocks can be surmounted with the right attitude and cooperation. If you already have skills in areas such as OCR/scanning materials and if need be and in self-advocacy, that's a fantastic start! As far as transportation, getting anywhere in and around DeKalb is very doable with help from the campus transportation services that is provided to NIU students with disabilities. With this service, you can easily go to grocery stores, (Wal-Mart, Target, etc), restaurants, although there are a lot of restaurants that you do not need transport to as they are in walking distance, (depending on where you are living - would you be living in the dorms or off campus? I myself live off campus in a townhouse with friends), and other such places needed for errands and the like. To get outside of DeKalb is a little more tricky in that you need to take a cab from DeKalb to the next town over to get to the train station. That can be a bit expensive if you need to do that a lot, but I have found that riding with friends or other people you can split the cost so that it isn't the worst thing ever. TO be honest, grad school keeps me so busy that I usually don't have time to leave DeKalb even if I wanted to! Ha ha! Take care, hopefully that has answered some of your questions, and if I can be of further assistance to you, please free to contact me off list. My e-mail address is in my signature. Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ADRIANA PULIDO Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 5:01 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] A blind Fulbright grantee's question Hello! My name is Adriana Pulido. I'm a blind Fulbright grantee from Colombia, and I'm going to study a Master's degree in communications and Journalism. At this moment, a placement officer at LASPAU is working on my admission process. I have 5 university options, namely: the University of Florida, the University of South Florida, Temple University, Northern Illinois University, and the University of Arkansas, which was suggested by my Placement officer. Could you please tell me which of these universities is the best option for a blind student? I also would like to know which is the best option academically speaking. Thank you for attending this message. Best, -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai l.com From liziswhatis at hotmail.com Sat May 14 17:30:16 2011 From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 12:30:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs In-Reply-To: <47AA9D43-9FDF-42D8-9884-21701C7AE18B@gmail.com> References: <317475869.13423.1304891314579.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <75ADE2B698D447599DF3C90476F9464D@hometwxakonvzn> <47AA9D43-9FDF-42D8-9884-21701C7AE18B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I would say that it may matter if you get a dog before or after going to a training center in that the time it takes to form a truly bonded team with your dog can take a solid six months to a year or so, and if you attend a training center very shortly after getting a dog, that may not be the best thing as far as the team (dog and handler) is concerned. Just my thoughts. Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ignasi Cambra Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 4:46 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs I think the answer to your problem is quite simple: are you good at traveling with a cane? Sometimes I feel like people simply don't try to go to places by themselves until they attend a training center. The truth is that if you have good O&M skills, it doesn't matter if you get the dog before or after you attend the training center. If, on the other hand, you are planning on getting all your O&M at the center, it's probably best to get the dog afterwards. On May 8, 2011, at 6:11 PM, RJ Sandefur wrote: > Don't get a dog. Before you get a dog, your cane skills should be perfect. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:05 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs > > >> Amy, Nicole and all, >> If I get a dog (which is a huge if), I'd wait at least a couple >> months before going to a training center. I'm guessing me and my new >> friend would need some time to really get to know each other-time >> which would probably be in short supply at a training center. I do, >> however, have a question which is probably silly. When attending a >> center, are you under contract to use a straight cane whenever you >> travel anywhere-whether in class time or just on your own time? I >> mean...let's say me and my dog want to go see a friend in Denver over >> the weekend (I have a few friends, hard to believe. :)). Would there >> be any official policy against me bringing a folding cane along for >> the trip, in the event I'd need it? I'd do a straight cane but...you >> know, those don't really fit in backpacks very well. Would anyone >> care if I did that, on my own time? From what I understand, you >> guys'll probably say that's a really dumb question and of course that >> would be fine. But my experience with life has told me to always make >> sure I know what's going on before I get in to it. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/8/11, Amy Sabo wrote: >>> hello kurt, >>> >>> i see that you want to attend ccb which is awesome! yes, you can bring your >>> guide dog to the ccb but, you will have to use a cane for some of your >>> activities oncluding travel class. i hope this is helpful to you and, >>> hopefully others here will chime in with their comments and suggestions to >>> this topic. >>> >>> take care and good luck in coming to ccb. >>> >>> >>> hugs, >>> amy >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Sent: Sun, 08 May 2011 21:22:10 -0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB training centers and guide dogs >>> >>> Dear list, >>> I'm thinking of attending the CCB sometime soon. I'm also going to >>> try out using a guide dog and, if I find it beneficial, will probably >>> go through the process of getting one. So my question is this. Is it >>> ok to bring a guide dog to an NFB training center? I mean, I know >>> that during my official day-time lessons I'd just need to use a >>> cane-and I'm fine with that. I think the worst thing I could do, if I >>> get a guide dog, is let my cane skills slip. But would there be any >>> problems, aside from logistics I'd have to work out, with bringing a >>> guide dog to a training center? Anyone done it? >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.n et >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai l.com From liziswhatis at hotmail.com Sat May 14 17:59:57 2011 From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 12:59:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS In-Reply-To: <004001cc0cca$6ed82d50$4c8887f0$@panix.com> References: <20110504165613.21838.2313@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <33605682-8DED-4051-A00A-6A77FB3C67AE@gmail.com> <004001cc0cca$6ed82d50$4c8887f0$@panix.com> Message-ID: That really is funny. Thanks, Mike, for the laugh! Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Freeman Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 10:21 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS One of the guys in our Agriculture and Equestrian Division who lives in San diego tells of an instance when a car pulled up to an intersection with an APS (there are quite a number in that city) and, rather than looking at the light, just listened for the APS. He stepped on the gas and ran smackdab into a car broadside because the light wasn't in his favor. Turns out there was actually a bird that sounded like the APS and he thought it *was* the APS when, in fact, the APS hadn't sounded. (grin) I think the Ag and Eq division member's name is Fred chambers. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ignasi Cambra Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 1:39 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS I don't think people would get confused though... I mean sounds are different when they come out of a speaker... Well, in any case I hope they don't have any of those birds in Madrid cause if they do they must be learning lots of things these days :). On May 4, 2011, at 12:56 PM, Jedi wrote: > There's just one problem with that. I believe it's Australia. In fact, I'm sure it is. They have this bird called a lyrebird, and it has the ability to mimic the sounds it hears. So, if it hears this special bird song and mimics it, some blind person's life could be in danger if she or he doens't know how to read traffic. I've heard of other birds having a similar ability as the lyrebird. So, I'd vote for some other pleasant sound that's a little harder for wildlife to mimic such as a piano tune or something. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> I just remembered that in Madrid they have an other interesting system: where APS make this rather pleasant sound which sounds just like a bird singing. It's actually not annoying, and they have them literally all over the city. At this point it's just a sound that one identifies with Madrid. The bird also sings differently depending on how much time you have left to cross etc. The first time I heard it I thought it was funny, but the truth is that it doesn't bother people and it does the job. >> On May 3, 2011, at 11:26 PM, Robert Spangler wrote: > >>> Hello all, > >>> I, personally, do not have a problem with APS so long as they are spaced far enough apart and aren't too bothersome to the public. I also think that there should always be a button, in case those who find them annoying don't want to use them. I don't have an issue with their presence at high-traffic intersections or complex crossings such as those mentioned by other members of the list; however, imagine having APS at every intersection in a downtown area? That would be a nightmare for everyone! > >>> Thanks, >>> Robby >>> On 5/2/2011 7:42 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> Hi Ashley and all, > >>>> I don't know exactly what NFB's official position is at this point. I >>>> personally am a big fan of audible traffic signals, for a few reasons. >>>> First, as you pointed out, there are several kinds of intersections >>>> where the auditory cue to cross is rather subtle-such as >>>> T-intersections, those where the parallel street is generally quiet or >>>> those with leading turn arrows, where you have to listen for the >>>> turning traffic to stop before crossing. I know it is possible to >>>> reliably cross these kinds of intersections using traffic cues alone, >>>> but the potential for mistakes (both missing the cue to cross and >>>> inadvertently crossing at the wrong time) is substantial especially >>>> for those who have had insufficient training. Second, as far as I >>>> know, there is no reliable way to tell when your walk signal is about >>>> to end. So if you come up to an intersection and the light is in your >>>> favor, there's no way to tell whether you will have enough time to >>>> cross before the light changes. The only really safe way to handle >>>> this is to wait until the light turns red and then green again, which >>>> can be inconvenient. Trust me, I've gambled on these and tried to >>>> cross without enough time-the result is scary not to mention >>>> embarrassing. Finally, though I know this logic is not always popular, >>>> I do think that if the sighted are given a clear cue to cross the >>>> street and it is not an undue hardship to make that signal accessible >>>> to the blind, it should be done. I can't imagine an intersection where >>>> sighted pedestrians are expected to watch the traffic without any kind >>>> of walk signal or light indicating when it was safe to cross. >>>> That being said, I don't think this necessarily has to be our biggest >>>> priority at this time. I also recognize that some blind travelers find >>>> audible signals bothersome and I would support some way of making the >>>> sound optional or implementing a tactile (i.e. vibrating) signal, >>>> which would also benefit the deaf-blind. > >>>> Arielle > >>>> On 5/2/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>> I thought it wasn't supposed to be enforced till like 2012? > > >>>>> On May 2, 2011, at 7:14 PM, wrote: > >>>>>> George, >>>>>> Actually the ACB seems as mad as ever; yes they won in the court; but the >>>>>> government has not produced accessible currency yet. >>>>>> Some do not feel the decision will be enforced. > >>>>>> Ashley > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez >>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:57 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS > >>>>>> I believe the national is officially against expanding the use of APS. > >>>>>> As far as accessible currency, didn't the ACB already close that case in >>>>>> court? >>>>>> ACB V. US trasury 2009 or something like that? > > >>>>>> On May 2, 2011, at 6:36 PM, wrote: > >>>>>>> Hi all, > >>>>>>> I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they are >>>>>>> taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency >>>>>>> topics and really trashing the NFB and they don't know the real positions >>>>>>> and facts. >>>>>>> They think NFB opposes both. >>>>>>> I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the positions? >>>>>>> Nfb is not opposed to APS fully. > >>>>>>> What is the national position? Any late resolutions? Also, what do you >>>>>>> think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful? >>>>>>> Personally, I'd like the APS at intersections where you have to press the >>>>>>> walk button as a pedestrian. We cannot see the walk signal to know when >>>>>>> our time starts; you have to press the button in order to tell the >>>>>>> computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk phase to cross the >>>>>>> street. I think these are called actuated signals. These streets favor >>>>>>> drivers, not pedestrians; the busier streets get more traffic time. That >>>>>>> change of the signal is activated by a computer. > >>>>>>> At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross, without a >>>>>>> button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues to hear to >>>>>>> cross. >>>>>>> I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn >>>>>>> lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great. Some signals >>>>>>> even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk interval. > >>>>>>> So I guess I see APS as a benefit when you have insufficient traffic >>>>>>> cues to cross the street. I've tried to learn how to cross T streets, >>>>>>> and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help there too. No >>>>>>> parallel traffic on T-shaped streets. > >>>>>>> Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on APS, >>>>>>> so I'm not sure what it is now. I certainly don't want them everywhere, >>>>>>> but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can see their use. > >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepae z%40gmail.com > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepae z%40gmail.com > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gma il.com > > > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail .com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo bile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai l.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sat May 14 18:46:47 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 11:46:47 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) Message-ID: Hi all, I promise, if this was a nagdu list thing, then I would post it there! :) Anyway, do people notice a trending in the number of cane users, or dog guide handlers? )more of one, less of another, or about an even number?) if there is ashift in anyway, do you think this signifies any sort of message or meaning? What have you noticed? what does it mean to you, and why? Best, Darian -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From liziswhatis at hotmail.com Sat May 14 19:01:41 2011 From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 14:01:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, I am way late on this discussion, but I will agree with what everyone has said in that a braille is useful no matter the technology you have to use as a supplement. I personally am not a fan of the new, plastic brailler and am in complete favor of the older-style, metal Perkins. You can't go wrong with it! Take care. Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brianna Scerenscko Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 5:38 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College Hello NABS Members, I was going to justify one of the new, plastic braillers to have instead of my old one because of portability; however, one of my old braille instructores said that I won't need a brailler if I have a Braille Note. But what about using it for math? I would assume that I will need it for math. Any imput would be helpfull. Thank You Brianna On 3/23/11, Karla Gilbride wrote: > Thanks; I just heard her voice. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Mary Fernandez > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 8:44 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues > > Dear Ashley, > Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, but for all of > America. I think that you have done some good things already by modifying > your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just wanted to look and > feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size six with a wonderfu > program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is really really simple, and > you will actually learn the routine pretty well. Most of the stuff she does > is squats, and launges, things we all know how to do. Go to > www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly affordable I think, and it is > definiely worth the investment. I would say to do the whole hting with a > sighted friend, or perhaps your mom the first time so that you get a good > idea of what she's doing. Then, you can do it on your own. I promise it > works, it's easy, and it's absolutely worth it. If you have specific > quetions about it, please let me know and I'll be more than happy to help. > I'm glad that you are taking the initiative to be healthier. So many of us > are not blessed with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle with looking > gorgeous and feeling great. So good luck sincerely, Mary F > > On 3/21/11, humberto wrote: >> Hi, >> >> This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, that I am >> getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what are the >> most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is it normal for >> a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing where your >> abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, and to me it >> works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not working. She tells >> me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do it because I do those >> exercises in PE anyways. >> any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, this >> can result in a discussion that can lead to great other discussions >> about blindness and appearance among sighted public. >> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >>Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >>>Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >> >>>Hi all, >> >>>I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in >> the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained weight >> upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food there. The >> freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but did gain some >> weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly noticed it until I put >> on different clothes. >>>BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount >> university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my mom >> isn’t satisfied. >> >>>I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat tissue >> is in my middle, the abdominal area. >>>I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >>>My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI is a >>>person’s weight over height squared. >>>But its not far off. >>>I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since it >> does affect your image and health. >>>Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated with >> more health risks. I took a health class in college. >> >>>I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early >> May and to have a better weight overall. >> >>>Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some >> complex carbs. >>>For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no fat >> milk. >>>I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do >> not eat fried food or drink sodas. >>>I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The worse >> food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >>>So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for >> several years and do not see many results. I live with parents and my >> mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. >> If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not the >> refined kind! >> >> >>>I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I cannot >> fit in a size 14 dress! >> >>>What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on >> less calories? >>>I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger and >> crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! >> >> >>>Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate in >> as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or soccer. >>>I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor lead >> classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >>>I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I >> could not follow the fast pace! >>>I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the most >> accessible. >> >>>I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to >> workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in the back >> basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is too >> stagnant or something being in the basement! >>>I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not enough. >> >> >>>I wish someone would make a described workout video for aerobics! >> >>>Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what >> worked for you. >>>My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t admit >> weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the mid >> section is the hardest to lose. >>>Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place >> you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >>>Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to lose >> it. >>>I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too >> many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when I’m out at >> a restaurant. >>>As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. >> Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain tap >> water. >>>I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes I >> have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at night. >>>I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack instead. >> But fruit never fills me up. >>>Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat >> peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. >>>But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks I >> am. >> >> >>>Let me know your ideas. >>>Ashley >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >> 5369%40netzero.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40 >> gmail.com >> > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory University 2012 P.O. > Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. > 30322 > Phone: 732-857-7004 > > "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather > you weren't doing it." > Terry Pratchett > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dralegal.org > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > -- Brianna Scerenscko _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun May 15 06:03:27 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 00:03:27 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Darian, I honestly never really payed attention to the numbers until the last few years. I'd be interested to hear observations from people who've been around the block a few times (Mike? *smile*) But I'd say the numbers of both are increasing-although that may just be because I'm meeting more blind people as life goes on. Warmly, Kirt On 5/14/11, Darian Smith wrote: > Hi all, > I promise, if this was a nagdu list thing, then I would post it there! :) > Anyway, do people notice a trending in the number of cane users, or > dog guide handlers? )more of one, less of another, or about an even > number?) if there is ashift in anyway, do you think this signifies > any sort of message or meaning? What have you noticed? what does > it mean to you, and why? > Best, > Darian > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun May 15 20:07:20 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 16:07:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) Message-ID: <20110515200720.16217.54233@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> It seems to me that we have a 2/3 cane and 1/3 dog mix or thereabouts. But in th NFB, there are definitely more cane users than dog users, but I don't know if the mix is the same in other sections of the blindness community. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Hi all, > I promise, if this was a nagdu list thing, then I would post it there! :) > Anyway, do people notice a trending in the number of cane users, or > dog guide handlers? )more of one, less of another, or about an even > number?) if there is ashift in anyway, do you think this signifies > any sort of message or meaning? What have you noticed? what does > it mean to you, and why? > Best, > Darian > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > — Robert Byrne > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sun May 15 20:32:47 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 16:32:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20110515200720.16217.54233@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> References: <20110515200720.16217.54233@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> Message-ID: <4F1E71B5-92FE-4D66-8988-88E758E14B07@gmail.com> I'd say 90% cane in my experience. I've only met like 3 or 4 dog handlers in my experience, and that's towards the high side. On May 15, 2011, at 4:07 PM, Jedi wrote: > It seems to me that we have a 2/3 cane and 1/3 dog mix or thereabouts. But in th NFB, there are definitely more cane users than dog users, but I don't know if the mix is the same in other sections of the blindness community. > > Respectfully Submitted > > Original message: >> Hi all, >> I promise, if this was a nagdu list thing, then I would post it there! :) >> Anyway, do people notice a trending in the number of cane users, or >> dog guide handlers? )more of one, less of another, or about an even >> number?) if there is ashift in anyway, do you think this signifies >> any sort of message or meaning? What have you noticed? what does >> it mean to you, and why? >> Best, >> Darian >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > >> — Robert Byrne > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Sun May 15 21:02:09 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 14:02:09 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] No Subject Emails Re: (no subject) References: <20110515200720.16217.54233@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> <4F1E71B5-92FE-4D66-8988-88E758E14B07@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7FCCF79AE72445A691575A5F42CA74FC@stanford.edu> Umm, can people please try to not send emails that do not have subjects? It makes sorting emails a lot easier when they have subjects. Also, if you reply to a message that does not have a subject, could you please add one? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2011 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] (no subject) I'd say 90% cane in my experience. I've only met like 3 or 4 dog handlers in my experience, and that's towards the high side. On May 15, 2011, at 4:07 PM, Jedi wrote: > It seems to me that we have a 2/3 cane and 1/3 dog mix or thereabouts. But > in th NFB, there are definitely more cane users than dog users, but I > don't know if the mix is the same in other sections of the blindness > community. > > Respectfully Submitted > > Original message: >> Hi all, >> I promise, if this was a nagdu list thing, then I would post it there! >> :) >> Anyway, do people notice a trending in the number of cane users, or >> dog guide handlers? )more of one, less of another, or about an even >> number?) if there is ashift in anyway, do you think this signifies >> any sort of message or meaning? What have you noticed? what does >> it mean to you, and why? >> Best, >> Darian >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > >> — Robert Byrne > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Sun May 15 21:55:15 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 14:55:15 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Dogs and Canes Re: (no subject) References: Message-ID: I really do not pay attention to the number of dog and cane users. I do not really think that it matters. I think what matters is that people receive good O&M training, that people use what works best for them, that people understand that a guide dog is not a solution to lack of O&M skills, and that people get the chance to try all of the options. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darian Smith" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2011 11:46 AM Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) Hi all, I promise, if this was a nagdu list thing, then I would post it there! :) Anyway, do people notice a trending in the number of cane users, or dog guide handlers? )more of one, less of another, or about an even number?) if there is ashift in anyway, do you think this signifies any sort of message or meaning? What have you noticed? what does it mean to you, and why? Best, Darian -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From nabs.president at gmail.com Sun May 15 23:07:25 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 17:07:25 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <4F1E71B5-92FE-4D66-8988-88E758E14B07@gmail.com> References: <20110515200720.16217.54233@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> <4F1E71B5-92FE-4D66-8988-88E758E14B07@gmail.com> Message-ID: I was told once that in the United States, it's a 90:10 split. I'm not sure how accurate that is and I'm sure the percentage of dog handlers is higher in other parts of the world. When I was growing up, almost all the blind adults I knew were dog handlers, so I was surprised to hear that statistic. Arielle On 5/15/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > I'd say 90% cane in my experience. > I've only met like 3 or 4 dog handlers in my experience, and that's towards > the high side. > > > On May 15, 2011, at 4:07 PM, Jedi wrote: > >> It seems to me that we have a 2/3 cane and 1/3 dog mix or thereabouts. But >> in th NFB, there are definitely more cane users than dog users, but I >> don't know if the mix is the same in other sections of the blindness >> community. >> >> Respectfully Submitted >> >> Original message: >>> Hi all, >>> I promise, if this was a nagdu list thing, then I would post it there! >>> :) >>> Anyway, do people notice a trending in the number of cane users, or >>> dog guide handlers? )more of one, less of another, or about an even >>> number?) if there is ashift in anyway, do you think this signifies >>> any sort of message or meaning? What have you noticed? what does >>> it mean to you, and why? >>> Best, >>> Darian >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >>> — Robert Byrne >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sun May 15 23:41:46 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 16:41:46 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] No Subject Emails Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <7FCCF79AE72445A691575A5F42CA74FC@stanford.edu> References: <20110515200720.16217.54233@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> <4F1E71B5-92FE-4D66-8988-88E758E14B07@gmail.com> <7FCCF79AE72445A691575A5F42CA74FC@stanford.edu> Message-ID: My appoligies! being on both sides of that, I completely understand! was absolutely not my intention. additionally, I just tend not to open them, meaning that if someone didn't open the one I sent, I would have just re-sent with a subject :) On 5/15/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > Umm, can people please try to not send emails that do not have subjects? It > makes sorting emails a lot easier when they have subjects. Also, if you > reply to a message that does not have a subject, could you please add one? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2011 1:32 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] (no subject) > > > I'd say 90% cane in my experience. > I've only met like 3 or 4 dog handlers in my experience, and that's towards > the high side. > > > On May 15, 2011, at 4:07 PM, Jedi wrote: > >> It seems to me that we have a 2/3 cane and 1/3 dog mix or thereabouts. But >> >> in th NFB, there are definitely more cane users than dog users, but I >> don't know if the mix is the same in other sections of the blindness >> community. >> >> Respectfully Submitted >> >> Original message: >>> Hi all, >>> I promise, if this was a nagdu list thing, then I would post it there! >>> :) >>> Anyway, do people notice a trending in the number of cane users, or >>> dog guide handlers? )more of one, less of another, or about an even >>> number?) if there is ashift in anyway, do you think this signifies >>> any sort of message or meaning? What have you noticed? what does >>> it mean to you, and why? >>> Best, >>> Darian >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >>> — Robert Byrne >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Mon May 16 02:37:09 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 20:37:09 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <20110515200720.16217.54233@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> <4F1E71B5-92FE-4D66-8988-88E758E14B07@gmail.com> Message-ID: Arielle, I'd say it's about 80:20 with the blind people I know...but that's a rough estimate. Sincerely, Kirt On 5/15/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > I was told once that in the United States, it's a 90:10 split. I'm not > sure how accurate that is and I'm sure the percentage of dog handlers > is higher in other parts of the world. When I was growing up, almost > all the blind adults I knew were dog handlers, so I was surprised to > hear that statistic. > > Arielle > > On 5/15/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> I'd say 90% cane in my experience. >> I've only met like 3 or 4 dog handlers in my experience, and that's >> towards >> the high side. >> >> >> On May 15, 2011, at 4:07 PM, Jedi wrote: >> >>> It seems to me that we have a 2/3 cane and 1/3 dog mix or thereabouts. >>> But >>> in th NFB, there are definitely more cane users than dog users, but I >>> don't know if the mix is the same in other sections of the blindness >>> community. >>> >>> Respectfully Submitted >>> >>> Original message: >>>> Hi all, >>>> I promise, if this was a nagdu list thing, then I would post it there! >>>> :) >>>> Anyway, do people notice a trending in the number of cane users, or >>>> dog guide handlers? )more of one, less of another, or about an even >>>> number?) if there is ashift in anyway, do you think this signifies >>>> any sort of message or meaning? What have you noticed? what does >>>> it mean to you, and why? >>>> Best, >>>> Darian >>>> -- >>>> Darian Smith >>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>>> — Robert Byrne >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > Phone: 602-502-2255 > Email: > nabs.president at gmail.com > Website: > www.nabslink.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From ignasicambra at gmail.com Mon May 16 09:03:28 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 05:03:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <20110515200720.16217.54233@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> <4F1E71B5-92FE-4D66-8988-88E758E14B07@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0AFB51E3-38B3-4711-84FF-9BC0E4340A85@gmail.com> As someone said before, it depends on the country. In Spain, for example, it's fairly easy to get a guide dog at no cost from the blind organization here. People have to stay in a waitlist for a while but it's not too bad. That's why many many people have dogs. I would say probably half of the blind people I've seen around here have one. On May 15, 2011, at 10:37 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Arielle, > I'd say it's about 80:20 with the blind people I know...but that's a > rough estimate. > Sincerely, > Kirt > > On 5/15/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> I was told once that in the United States, it's a 90:10 split. I'm not >> sure how accurate that is and I'm sure the percentage of dog handlers >> is higher in other parts of the world. When I was growing up, almost >> all the blind adults I knew were dog handlers, so I was surprised to >> hear that statistic. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 5/15/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> I'd say 90% cane in my experience. >>> I've only met like 3 or 4 dog handlers in my experience, and that's >>> towards >>> the high side. >>> >>> >>> On May 15, 2011, at 4:07 PM, Jedi wrote: >>> >>>> It seems to me that we have a 2/3 cane and 1/3 dog mix or thereabouts. >>>> But >>>> in th NFB, there are definitely more cane users than dog users, but I >>>> don't know if the mix is the same in other sections of the blindness >>>> community. >>>> >>>> Respectfully Submitted >>>> >>>> Original message: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> I promise, if this was a nagdu list thing, then I would post it there! >>>>> :) >>>>> Anyway, do people notice a trending in the number of cane users, or >>>>> dog guide handlers? )more of one, less of another, or about an even >>>>> number?) if there is ashift in anyway, do you think this signifies >>>>> any sort of message or meaning? What have you noticed? what does >>>>> it mean to you, and why? >>>>> Best, >>>>> Darian >>>>> -- >>>>> Darian Smith >>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>> >>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>> >>>>> — Robert Byrne >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Arielle Silverman >> President, National Association of Blind Students >> Phone: 602-502-2255 >> Email: >> nabs.president at gmail.com >> Website: >> www.nabslink.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From marsha.drenth at gmail.com Mon May 16 16:47:37 2011 From: marsha.drenth at gmail.com (Marsha Drenth) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 12:47:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Arielle In-Reply-To: References: <20110515200720.16217.54233@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal><4F1E71B5-92FE-4D66-8988-88E758E14B07@gmail.com> Message-ID: <98DCC45A171B419888AE1FE422DEFFA7@Cptr233> Arielle, Can you please email me off list, I have a question I would like to ask, please. Marsha.drenth at gmail.com Thank you, Marsha Drenth __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6126 (20110516) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From AZNOR99 at aol.com Mon May 16 18:10:55 2011 From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 14:10:55 EDT Subject: [nabs-l] Pac-Mate QX w/ Braille Display for Sale Message-ID: <5aa4.1755c8b8.3b02c2af@aol.com> I am selling a Pac-Mate QX with 20 Cell Braille Display and all its accessories. This device has literally only been used once and is in new condition. Most of the accessories are still in their plastic wrapping. Asking price = $2,000 or best offer. Willing to negotiate. Please contact me at 708-829-0523 or _aznor99 at aol.com_ (mailto:aznor99 at aol.com) . Thanks, Ronza Othman From kim at senderogroup.com Tue May 17 00:15:26 2011 From: kim at senderogroup.com (Kim Casey) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 19:15:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Announcing Sendero GPS 2011 Message-ID: Announcing Sendero GPS 2011 Davis, California, May 16, 2011 GPS Version 2011 is Sendero's fifteenth version since the laptop GPS was first released in 2000. It has been 18 years since the founders of Sendero began working on the first GPS prototypes. The Sendero GPS 2011 version available today is for the BrailleNote family of products as well as for Sendero Maps for the PC, a powerful tool you receive free with the purchase of either the BrailleNote or Braille Sense GPS products. The 2011 Sense Nav GPS will be coming soon followed by the 2011 version for Mobile Geo in a month or so. There are 7 major improvements in version 2011 since the 2010 version. Highlights include: Most importantly, new 2011 maps and Points of Interest. New purchases of v2011 come with maps and 2 additional years of upgrades. The Software Maintenance Agreement (SMA) counts for 3 years of upgrades. You must already be running v2011 to buy an SMA. In Explore mode, we have improved Virtual Navigation for Apex, Sendero Maps and Sense Navigation including better descriptions for over and under passes. We have nicely improved the ability to track the side of the street and cross street on the Apex, Sendero Maps and Sense Navigation. A huge new feature is the addition of freeway exit numbers and the announcement of which city the freeway is heading towards: for intersections, lookaround intersections and route following. Example: "ramp to CA-85 SB. Exit 1A, towards Gilroy." Ability to describe any intersection with the "annotate intersection" feature. To see details of the 7 changes from v2010 to v2011, visit http://senderogroup.com/products/GPS/v2011changes.htm For those who already have an upgrade available for the BrailleNote or VoiceNote and GPS, your brand new 2011 is available at http://www.GoSendero.com. To get started using version 2011 view the V2011 online manuals, http://www.senderogroup.com/support/supportgps.htm You will want to delete the old 2010 maps and download all new 2011 maps and commercial POIs. For those who would like to try v2011 before you buy, download the Trial Version, http://senderogroup.com/products/GPS/testdrive.asp, for your BrailleNote. You will have access to all countries we currently support for the 30 days, after which you can purchase a full version, opt for the Pay-As-You-Go payment plan, or uninstall the 30 day trial version and re-install your old version of Sendero GPS. To purchase, call Sendero toll free, 1-888-757-6810 Contact Sendero Group: http://www.senderogroup.com Toll free phone (US and Canada): 1-888-757-6810 Direct phone: +1 530 757-6800 From dandrews at visi.com Tue May 17 00:22:39 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 19:22:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Pac-mate QX w/ Braille Display for Sale Message-ID: > >I am selling a Pac-Mate QX with 20 Cell Braille Display and all its >accessories. This device has literally only been used once and is >in new condition. Most of the accessories are still in their plastic wrapping. > >Asking price = $2,000 or best offer. Willing to negotiate. > >Please contact me at 708-829-0523 or aznor99 at aol.com. > >Thanks, >Ronza Othman > From dandrews at visi.com Tue May 17 01:35:30 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 20:35:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [BANA-Announce] BANA Releases Part 1 of Article on the Evolution of Braille Message-ID: > >Press Release > >May 2011 > >For Immediate Release > >CONTACT: Judy Dixon, Chair > >Braille Authority of North America > >Phone: 202-707-0722 > >Email: jdix at loc.gov > > > >BANA Releases Part One of Article on the Evolution of Braille > > > >The Braille Authority of North America (BANA) has just released the >first segment of a three-part article on the evolution of braille. >In this initial piece, BANA focuses on the changing nature of >communication methods used by braille readers. It also looks at >other relevant transitions, such as how blind children are educated, >the range of available technologies, and the evolution of braille and print. > >Part One of "The Evolution of Braille: Can the Past Help Plan the >Future?" is now posted on the BANA website at: >www.brailleauthority.org/article/evolution_of_braille-part1.pdf. >Parts two and three of this article will be released in the coming >weeks. BANA will announce their publication through press releases >and email announcements. > >You can follow the work of BANA by signing up for BANA-Announce, a >one-way email list that disseminates news and information. To join >this list, send a blank email message to >bana-announce-subscribe at brailleauthority.org >and follow the directions in the confirmation email that will be >sent in response. You can also follow BANA on Facebook and Twitter! > > > >For additional information and resources, visit >www.brailleauthority.org > > > >The mission and purpose of the Braille Authority of North America >are to assure literacy for tactile readers through the >standardization of braille and/or tactile graphics. BANA promotes >and facilitates the use, teaching, and production of braille. It >publishes rules, interprets, and renders opinions pertaining to >braille in all existing codes. It deals with codes now in existence >or to be developed in the future, in collaboration with other >countries using English braille. In exercising its function and >authority, BANA considers the effects of its decisions on other >existing braille codes and formats; the ease of production by >various methods; and acceptability to readers. > > > > >_______________________________________________ >BANA-Announce mailing list >BANA-Announce at brailleauthority.org >http://www.brailleauthority.org/mailman/listinfo/bana-announce From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Tue May 17 19:57:31 2011 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 14:57:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] =?utf-8?q?FW=3A_Bureau_of_Engraving_and_Printing_Launche?= =?utf-8?q?s_EyeNote=E2=84=A2App_to_Help_the_Blind_and_Visually_Imp?= =?utf-8?q?aired_Denominate_US_Currency?= Message-ID: <011801cc14cc$a96193d0$fc24bb70$@com> Aren’t there already iPhone apps that do this? From: White House Disability Group Date: May 17, 2011 3:45:19 PM EDT To: cmacdonald at linchpinstrategies.com Subject: Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency Reply-To: White House Disability Group  Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency The Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) has developed a free downloadable application (app) to assist the blind and visually impaired denominate US currency. The app is called EyeNote™. EyeNote™ is a mobile device app designed for Apple iPhone (3G, 3Gs, 4), and the 4th Generation iPod Touch and iPad2 platforms, and is available through the Apple iTunes App Store. EyeNote™ uses image recognition technology to determine a note’s denomination. The mobile device’s camera requires 51 percent of a note’s scanned image, front or back, to process. In a matter of seconds, EyeNote™ can provide an audible or vibrating response, and can denominate all Federal Reserve notes issued since 1996. Free downloads will be available whenever new US currency designs are introduced. Research indicates that more than 100,000 blind and visually impaired individuals could currently own an Apple iPhone. The EyeNoteTM app is one of a variety of measures the government is working to deploy to assist the visually impaired community to denominate currency, as proposed in a recent Federal Register notice. These measures include implementing a Currency Reader Program whereby a United States resident, who is blind or visually impaired, may obtain a coupon that can be applied toward the purchase of a device to denominate United States currency; continuing to add large high contrast numerals and different background colors to redesigned currency; and, raised tactile features may be added to redesigned currency, which would provide users with a means of identifying each denomination via touch. More information is available at http://www.eyenote.gov/ or through email at eyenote at bep.gov. More information can be found also at: http://www.bep.treas.gov/uscurrency/meaningfulaccess ----- Unsubscribe The White House · 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW · Washington DC 20500 · 202-456-1111 From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue May 17 19:57:02 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 15:57:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] MS Excel and accessibility Message-ID: <4dd2d31c.a872340a.53ac.09e6@mx.google.com> Hi, all! Lately in science class, we've been doing a lot of assignments involving graphing data from an experiment, or lab, into MS Excel. Since we haven't tried it on my computer, and my TVI doesn't know a lot about its interaction with screen readers (JAWS in particular) we make the graph manually on my Braillewriter, which is tedious and time-consuming (at least more time-consuming than doing it in Excel.) This can amount to be pretty annoying. My classmates are getting the graph done on the computer in no time and are moving on to notes that are homework if not finished in class, and having enough time to finish the notes and have no homework! However, I didn't even have time to start on the notes because the graph took so long to make (from scratch) on the Brailler, and had to do it all at home. * Frown. So, I'd like to know how accessible Excel is to screen readers, especially in making graphs or spread sheets. What have your experiences been with Excel and are there any tips or tricks you use with it? Or do I still have to go old-school and do it on the Brailler? (smile) Any help would be apreciated! Thanks! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue May 17 20:09:22 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 14:09:22 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] =?windows-1252?q?FW=3A_Bureau_of_Engraving_and_Printing_?= =?windows-1252?q?Launches_EyeNote=99App_to_Help_the_Blind_and_Visu?= =?windows-1252?q?ally_Impaired_Denominate_US_Currency?= In-Reply-To: <011801cc14cc$a96193d0$fc24bb70$@com> References: <011801cc14cc$a96193d0$fc24bb70$@com> Message-ID: Sean, There is one that just reads out currency-it's called LookTell Money Reader. It costs a couple dollars, and it doesnt have the vibrating feature that some people like. I say good for them-diversity's never a bad thing. Best, Kirt On 5/17/11, Sean Whalen wrote: > Aren’t there already iPhone apps that do this? > > > > From: White House Disability Group > > Date: May 17, 2011 3:45:19 PM EDT > > To: cmacdonald at linchpinstrategies.com > > Subject: Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App to Help the > Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency > > Reply-To: White House Disability Group > > > >  > > Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App > > to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency > > > > The Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) has developed a free downloadable > application (app) to assist the blind and visually impaired denominate US > currency. The app is called EyeNote™. EyeNote™ is a mobile device app > designed for Apple iPhone (3G, 3Gs, 4), and the 4th Generation iPod Touch > and iPad2 platforms, and is available through the Apple iTunes App Store. > > > > EyeNote™ uses image recognition technology to determine a note’s > denomination. The mobile device’s camera requires 51 percent of a note’s > scanned image, front or back, to process. In a matter of seconds, EyeNote™ > can provide an audible or vibrating response, and can denominate all Federal > Reserve notes issued since 1996. Free downloads will be available whenever > new US currency designs are introduced. Research indicates that more than > 100,000 blind and visually impaired individuals could currently own an Apple > iPhone. > > > > The EyeNoteTM app is one of a variety of measures the government is working > to deploy to assist the visually impaired community to denominate currency, > as proposed in a recent Federal Register notice. These measures include > implementing a Currency Reader Program whereby a United States resident, who > is blind or visually impaired, may obtain a coupon that can be applied > toward the purchase of a device to denominate United States currency; > continuing to add large high contrast numerals and different background > colors to redesigned currency; and, raised tactile features may be added to > redesigned currency, which would provide users with a means of identifying > each denomination via touch. > > > > More information is available at http://www.eyenote.gov/ or through email at > eyenote at bep.gov. > > > > More information can be found also at: > http://www.bep.treas.gov/uscurrency/meaningfulaccess > > > ----- > > Unsubscribe > > > The White House · 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW · Washington DC 20500 · > 202-456-1111 > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From gpaikens at gmail.com Tue May 17 20:13:11 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 15:13:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] =?windows-1252?q?FW=3A_Bureau_of_Engraving_and_Printing_?= =?windows-1252?q?Launches_EyeNote=99App_to_Help_the_Blind_and_Visually_Im?= =?windows-1252?q?paired_Denominate_US_Currency?= In-Reply-To: <011801cc14cc$a96193d0$fc24bb70$@com> References: <011801cc14cc$a96193d0$fc24bb70$@com> Message-ID: <1D80A550-88AE-4B93-9FA7-7D592FE44EB4@gmail.com> Yes, the Looktell money reader app is the best one I have found. It costs $2, which is negligible when compared to other solutions. Apparently this app is free and includes vibration feedback to give you some privacy if reading bills in public. That's a nice feature that looktell doesn't have. I'll have to check this out and see if the recognition is as fast. -Greg On May 17, 2011, at 2:57 PM, Sean Whalen wrote: > Aren’t there already iPhone apps that do this? > > > > From: White House Disability Group > > Date: May 17, 2011 3:45:19 PM EDT > > To: cmacdonald at linchpinstrategies.com > > Subject: Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency > > Reply-To: White House Disability Group > > > >  > > Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App > > to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency > > > > The Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) has developed a free downloadable application (app) to assist the blind and visually impaired denominate US currency. The app is called EyeNote™. EyeNote™ is a mobile device app designed for Apple iPhone (3G, 3Gs, 4), and the 4th Generation iPod Touch and iPad2 platforms, and is available through the Apple iTunes App Store. > > > > EyeNote™ uses image recognition technology to determine a note’s denomination. The mobile device’s camera requires 51 percent of a note’s scanned image, front or back, to process. In a matter of seconds, EyeNote™ can provide an audible or vibrating response, and can denominate all Federal Reserve notes issued since 1996. Free downloads will be available whenever new US currency designs are introduced. Research indicates that more than 100,000 blind and visually impaired individuals could currently own an Apple iPhone. > > > > The EyeNoteTM app is one of a variety of measures the government is working to deploy to assist the visually impaired community to denominate currency, as proposed in a recent Federal Register notice. These measures include implementing a Currency Reader Program whereby a United States resident, who is blind or visually impaired, may obtain a coupon that can be applied toward the purchase of a device to denominate United States currency; continuing to add large high contrast numerals and different background colors to redesigned currency; and, raised tactile features may be added to redesigned currency, which would provide users with a means of identifying each denomination via touch. > > > > More information is available at http://www.eyenote.gov/ or through email at eyenote at bep.gov. > > > > More information can be found also at: http://www.bep.treas.gov/uscurrency/meaningfulaccess > > ----- > > Unsubscribe > > The White House · 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW · Washington DC 20500 · 202-456-1111 > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue May 17 20:29:09 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 14:29:09 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] =?windows-1252?q?FW=3A_Bureau_of_Engraving_and_Printing_?= =?windows-1252?q?Launches_EyeNote=99App_to_Help_the_Blind_and_Visu?= =?windows-1252?q?ally_Impaired_Denominate_US_Currency?= In-Reply-To: <1D80A550-88AE-4B93-9FA7-7D592FE44EB4@gmail.com> References: <011801cc14cc$a96193d0$fc24bb70$@com> <1D80A550-88AE-4B93-9FA7-7D592FE44EB4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Looktell's recognition is amazing-I don't need the vibration feature for privacy (headphones, anyone?), so I'm sticking with what I've got. On 5/17/11, Greg Aikens wrote: > Yes, the Looktell money reader app is the best one I have found. It costs > $2, which is negligible when compared to other solutions. > > Apparently this app is free and includes vibration feedback to give you some > privacy if reading bills in public. That's a nice feature that looktell > doesn't have. > > I'll have to check this out and see if the recognition is as fast. > > -Greg > On May 17, 2011, at 2:57 PM, Sean Whalen wrote: > >> Aren’t there already iPhone apps that do this? >> >> >> >> From: White House Disability Group >> >> Date: May 17, 2011 3:45:19 PM EDT >> >> To: cmacdonald at linchpinstrategies.com >> >> Subject: Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App to Help the >> Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency >> >> Reply-To: White House Disability Group >> >> >> >> >>  >> >> Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App >> >> to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency >> >> >> >> The Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) has developed a free >> downloadable application (app) to assist the blind and visually impaired >> denominate US currency. The app is called EyeNote™. EyeNote™ is a mobile >> device app designed for Apple iPhone (3G, 3Gs, 4), and the 4th Generation >> iPod Touch and iPad2 platforms, and is available through the Apple iTunes >> App Store. >> >> >> >> EyeNote™ uses image recognition technology to determine a note’s >> denomination. The mobile device’s camera requires 51 percent of a note’s >> scanned image, front or back, to process. In a matter of seconds, >> EyeNote™ can provide an audible or vibrating response, and can denominate >> all Federal Reserve notes issued since 1996. Free downloads will be >> available whenever new US currency designs are introduced. Research >> indicates that more than 100,000 blind and visually impaired individuals >> could currently own an Apple iPhone. >> >> >> >> The EyeNoteTM app is one of a variety of measures the government is >> working to deploy to assist the visually impaired community to denominate >> currency, as proposed in a recent Federal Register notice. These measures >> include implementing a Currency Reader Program whereby a United States >> resident, who is blind or visually impaired, may obtain a coupon that can >> be applied toward the purchase of a device to denominate United States >> currency; continuing to add large high contrast numerals and different >> background colors to redesigned currency; and, raised tactile features may >> be added to redesigned currency, which would provide users with a means of >> identifying each denomination via touch. >> >> >> >> More information is available at http://www.eyenote.gov/ or through email >> at eyenote at bep.gov. >> >> >> >> More information can be found also at: >> http://www.bep.treas.gov/uscurrency/meaningfulaccess >> >> >> ----- >> >> Unsubscribe >> >> >> >> The White House · 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW · Washington DC 20500 · >> 202-456-1111 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Tue May 17 20:32:15 2011 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 14:32:15 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] =?utf-8?q?FW=3A_Bureau_of_Engraving_and_Printing_Launche?= =?utf-8?q?s_EyeNote=E2=84=A2App_to_Help_the_Blind_and_Visually_Imp?= =?utf-8?q?aired_Denominate_US_Currency?= In-Reply-To: <1D80A550-88AE-4B93-9FA7-7D592FE44EB4@gmail.com> References: <011801cc14cc$a96193d0$fc24bb70$@com> <1D80A550-88AE-4B93-9FA7-7D592FE44EB4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CF824315C2D490394CAD1A677CD2FEC@MarcLaptop> iNote is not as fast, and in my experience, not as accurate. It's not as fast because it involves snapping a picture and then processing the image. Looktel, on the other hand, identifies in real time using object recognition. I tried iNote a couple of times without success, which is admittedly not enough to draw a conclusion, but holding the bill and the phone in the same positions led to almost instantaneous identification with Looktel. >From what I've heard, Looktel will also be introducing a vibration feature. Competition in the tech sector is usually a good thing, but besides the slightly better price tag (free verses $2), I can't see why anyone would choose this product over Looktel's Money Reader. I just wish they would get around to releasing a version to identify Canadian currency. Marc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Aikens" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] FW: Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency > Yes, the Looktell money reader app is the best one I have found. It costs > $2, which is negligible when compared to other solutions. > > Apparently this app is free and includes vibration feedback to give you > some privacy if reading bills in public. That's a nice feature that > looktell doesn't have. > > I'll have to check this out and see if the recognition is as fast. > > -Greg > On May 17, 2011, at 2:57 PM, Sean Whalen wrote: > >> Aren’t there already iPhone apps that do this? >> >> >> >> From: White House Disability Group >> >> Date: May 17, 2011 3:45:19 PM EDT >> >> To: cmacdonald at linchpinstrategies.com >> >> Subject: Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App to Help >> the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency >> >> Reply-To: White House Disability Group >> >> >> >> >>  >> >> Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App >> >> to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency >> >> >> >> The Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) has developed a free >> downloadable application (app) to assist the blind and visually impaired >> denominate US currency. The app is called EyeNote™. EyeNote™ is a >> mobile device app designed for Apple iPhone (3G, 3Gs, 4), and the 4th >> Generation iPod Touch and iPad2 platforms, and is available through the >> Apple iTunes App Store. >> >> >> >> EyeNote™ uses image recognition technology to determine a note’s >> denomination. The mobile device’s camera requires 51 percent of a note’s >> scanned image, front or back, to process. In a matter of seconds, >> EyeNote™ can provide an audible or vibrating response, and can denominate >> all Federal Reserve notes issued since 1996. Free downloads will be >> available whenever new US currency designs are introduced. Research >> indicates that more than 100,000 blind and visually impaired individuals >> could currently own an Apple iPhone. >> >> >> >> The EyeNoteTM app is one of a variety of measures the government is >> working to deploy to assist the visually impaired community to denominate >> currency, as proposed in a recent Federal Register notice. These >> measures include implementing a Currency Reader Program whereby a United >> States resident, who is blind or visually impaired, may obtain a coupon >> that can be applied toward the purchase of a device to denominate United >> States currency; continuing to add large high contrast numerals and >> different background colors to redesigned currency; and, raised tactile >> features may be added to redesigned currency, which would provide users >> with a means of identifying each denomination via touch. >> >> >> >> More information is available at http://www.eyenote.gov/ or through email >> at eyenote at bep.gov. >> >> >> >> More information can be found also at: >> http://www.bep.treas.gov/uscurrency/meaningfulaccess >> >> >> ----- >> >> Unsubscribe >> >> >> The White House · 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW · Washington DC 20500 · >> 202-456-1111 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue May 17 20:43:49 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 16:43:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?Launches_EyeNote=E2=84=A2App_to_Help_the_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?Blind_and_Visually_Impaired_Denominate_US_Currency?= Message-ID: <4dd2de13.8d8de50a.55f1.1e91@mx.google.com> Yes,=20it's=20the=20LookTell=20money=20reader.=20=20The=20only=20difference= =20is=20the=20 LookTell=20reader=20costs=20$1.99=20(which=20is=20not=20to=20say=20by=20any= =20means=20 that=20this=20isn't=20a=20good=20deal=20compared=20to=20readers=20from=20th= e=20 all-blindness=20companies,=20like=20the=20KNFB=20Reader)=20and=20this=20Eye= note=20 app=20is=20free.=20=20If=20anybody=20has=20an=20iPhone=20or=20iTouch,=20may= be=20you=20can=20 try=20this=20app=20out!=20I'd=20be=20interested=20to=20know=20how=20it=20wo= rks!=20I=20know=20 Liz=20is=20also=20doing=20some=20research=20on=20accessible=20IOS=20apps=20= and=20is=20 doing=20a=20poll.=20=20So,=20maybe=20if=20you=20try=20it=20out=20and=20like= =20it,=20you=20can=20 send=20her=20an=20email=20and=20add=20your=20voice=20to=20the=20survey! Chris=20Nusbaum "A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abilit= ies=20motto) ---=20Sent=20from=20my=20Braille-Note =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Sean=20Whalen"=20 Please pass this on and take action yourself! Chris Nusbaum "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my Braille-Note ---- Original Message ------ From: "Learning Ally, formerly RFB&D" excel is pretty good with jaws Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Nusbaum > >I am seeking to attend national convention in Orlando this >summer. Due to lack of funds, I did not think I would be able to, >and therefore did not reserve a room in time. However, funding is >coming together, and I am in need of a room with other females. If >any females on list have a room, but want/need another roommate to >help with the cost, please contact me at: >AliciaNFB at gmail.com > >Thank you! > >Alicia > > >__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >signature database 6130 (20110517) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue May 17 21:18:21 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C2ris=20Nusbaum?=) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 17:18:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] MS Excel and accessibility Message-ID: <4dd2e62b.6180dc0a.6943.0c59@mx.google.com> Good... so, how does it work with JAWS? Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: "dreicer, zachary" pretty=20good!=20there's=20a=20carroll=20tech=20class=20if=20you=20want=20t= o=20pay=20for=20 instruction.=20=20Let=20me=20know=20and=20I=20can=20get=20you=20the=20link= =20to=20their=20 site Sent=20from=20my=20BRAILLENOTE=20Apex =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20=C2ris=20Nusbaum=20 References: <011801cc14cc$a96193d0$fc24bb70$@com> Message-ID: <51C3E50C-04DE-4F2A-883B-52F43ACF254D@gmail.com> Yes there are. This one should be good though. On May 17, 2011, at 3:57 PM, Sean Whalen wrote: > Aren’t there already iPhone apps that do this? > > > > From: White House Disability Group > > Date: May 17, 2011 3:45:19 PM EDT > > To: cmacdonald at linchpinstrategies.com > > Subject: Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency > > Reply-To: White House Disability Group > > > >  > > Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App > > to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency > > > > The Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) has developed a free downloadable application (app) to assist the blind and visually impaired denominate US currency. The app is called EyeNote™. EyeNote™ is a mobile device app designed for Apple iPhone (3G, 3Gs, 4), and the 4th Generation iPod Touch and iPad2 platforms, and is available through the Apple iTunes App Store. > > > > EyeNote™ uses image recognition technology to determine a note’s denomination. The mobile device’s camera requires 51 percent of a note’s scanned image, front or back, to process. In a matter of seconds, EyeNote™ can provide an audible or vibrating response, and can denominate all Federal Reserve notes issued since 1996. Free downloads will be available whenever new US currency designs are introduced. Research indicates that more than 100,000 blind and visually impaired individuals could currently own an Apple iPhone. > > > > The EyeNoteTM app is one of a variety of measures the government is working to deploy to assist the visually impaired community to denominate currency, as proposed in a recent Federal Register notice. These measures include implementing a Currency Reader Program whereby a United States resident, who is blind or visually impaired, may obtain a coupon that can be applied toward the purchase of a device to denominate United States currency; continuing to add large high contrast numerals and different background colors to redesigned currency; and, raised tactile features may be added to redesigned currency, which would provide users with a means of identifying each denomination via touch. > > > > More information is available at http://www.eyenote.gov/ or through email at eyenote at bep.gov. > > > > More information can be found also at: http://www.bep.treas.gov/uscurrency/meaningfulaccess > > ----- > > Unsubscribe > > The White House · 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW · Washington DC 20500 · 202-456-1111 > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From k7uij at panix.com Tue May 17 21:54:33 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 14:54:33 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] =?utf-8?q?FW=3A_Bureau_of_Engraving_and_Printing_Launche?= =?utf-8?q?s_EyeNote=E2=84=A2App_to_Help_the_Blind_and_Visually_Impaired_D?= =?utf-8?q?enominate_US_Currency?= In-Reply-To: References: <011801cc14cc$a96193d0$fc24bb70$@com> Message-ID: <73E6364C-082C-41EC-8739-44026170D908@panix.com> But LookTel is much easier to use and is far less critical in bill placement than is EyeNote. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 17, 2011, at 13:09, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Sean, > There is one that just reads out currency-it's called LookTell Money > Reader. It costs a couple dollars, and it doesnt have the vibrating > feature that some people like. I say good for them-diversity's never > a bad thing. > Best, > Kirt > > On 5/17/11, Sean Whalen wrote: >> Aren’t there already iPhone apps that do this? >> >> >> >> From: White House Disability Group >> >> Date: May 17, 2011 3:45:19 PM EDT >> >> To: cmacdonald at linchpinstrategies.com >> >> Subject: Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App to Help the >> Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency >> >> Reply-To: White House Disability Group >> >> >> >>  >> >> Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App >> >> to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency >> >> >> >> The Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) has developed a free downloadable >> application (app) to assist the blind and visually impaired denominate US >> currency. The app is called EyeNote™. EyeNote™ is a mobile device app >> designed for Apple iPhone (3G, 3Gs, 4), and the 4th Generation iPod Touch >> and iPad2 platforms, and is available through the Apple iTunes App Store. >> >> >> >> EyeNote™ uses image recognition technology to determine a note’s >> denomination. The mobile device’s camera requires 51 percent of a note’s >> scanned image, front or back, to process. In a matter of seconds, EyeNote™ >> can provide an audible or vibrating response, and can denominate all Federal >> Reserve notes issued since 1996. Free downloads will be available whenever >> new US currency designs are introduced. Research indicates that more than >> 100,000 blind and visually impaired individuals could currently own an Apple >> iPhone. >> >> >> >> The EyeNoteTM app is one of a variety of measures the government is working >> to deploy to assist the visually impaired community to denominate currency, >> as proposed in a recent Federal Register notice. These measures include >> implementing a Currency Reader Program whereby a United States resident, who >> is blind or visually impaired, may obtain a coupon that can be applied >> toward the purchase of a device to denominate United States currency; >> continuing to add large high contrast numerals and different background >> colors to redesigned currency; and, raised tactile features may be added to >> redesigned currency, which would provide users with a means of identifying >> each denomination via touch. >> >> >> >> More information is available at http://www.eyenote.gov/ or through email at >> eyenote at bep.gov. >> >> >> >> More information can be found also at: >> http://www.bep.treas.gov/uscurrency/meaningfulaccess >> >> >> ----- >> >> Unsubscribe >> >> >> The White House · 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW · Washington DC 20500 · >> 202-456-1111 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From k7uij at panix.com Tue May 17 22:07:01 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 15:07:01 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] MS Excel and accessibility In-Reply-To: <4dd2e62b.6180dc0a.6943.0c59@mx.google.com> References: <4dd2e62b.6180dc0a.6943.0c59@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5DC8DDAB-C459-45EB-9E4A-0486F88FEA93@panix.com> How about reading the JAWS help on it? Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 17, 2011, at 14:18, Âris Nusbaum wrote: > Good... so, how does it work with JAWS? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "dreicer, zachary" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 15:07:32 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] MS Excel and accessibility > > excel is pretty good with jaws > > Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chris Nusbaum To: NABS list Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 15:57:02 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] MS Excel and accessibility > > Hi, all! > > Lately in science class, we've been doing a lot of assignments > involving graphing data from an experiment, or lab, into MS > Excel. Since we haven't tried it on my computer, and my TVI > doesn't know a lot about its interaction with screen readers > (JAWS in particular) we make the graph manually on my > Braillewriter, which is tedious and time-consuming (at least more > time-consuming than doing it in Excel.) This can amount to be > pretty annoying. My classmates are getting the graph done on the > computer in no time and are moving on to notes that are homework > if not finished in class, and having enough time to finish the > notes and have no homework! However, I didn't even have time to > start on the notes because the graph took so long to make (from > scratch) on the Brailler, and had to do it all at home. * Frown. > So, I'd like to know how accessible Excel is to screen readers, > especially in making graphs or spread sheets. What have your > experiences been with Excel and are there any tips or tricks you > use with it? Or do I still have to go old-school and do it on the > Brailler? (smile) Any help would be apreciated! Thanks! > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer > %40emissives.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Tue May 17 22:07:59 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 18:07:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Action Alert: Your action is needed to save accessible textbookprogram In-Reply-To: <4dd2de12.8d8de50a.55f1.1e8f@mx.google.com> References: <4dd2de12.8d8de50a.55f1.1e8f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7278F0FB-DE76-4AC3-83F5-CD45D27D54B7@gmail.com> Thank you Chriss, just sent my email. :) Jorge On May 17, 2011, at 4:43 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Please pass this on and take action yourself! > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my Braille-Note > > ---- Original Message ------ > From: "Learning Ally, formerly RFB&D" Subject: Action Alert: Your action is needed to save accessible textbookprogram > Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 14:12:41 -0400 (EDT) > > Having trouble viewing this email? > Click here to view this email as a webpage. > http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=dpqs87bab&v=00 > 1xmZOF4pc7pMMuUnBvAcfhMol18Ere_PHDSX3eaJJTVAte_PaWoA4-lgeYnS90p7E > di9nTHn-F13cR4XYzlYgB282VV71pK5o-Q90u_TXeN2o60-JGHr02hhecexE6vw86 > QvhwrGjlPoHMkZCqqUpEw%3D%3D > You're receiving this email because of your relationship with Learning Ally.. Please > confirm your continued interest in receiving email from us. > http://visitor.r20.constantcontact.com/c.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&t=1105 > 572670725.166919.58419719.2&m=1101553811939&wl=F > You only have to do this once. You may unsubscribe > http://visitor.constantcontact.com/do?p=un&m=001K33QEjKvDIIHs3Uws > ZPI7A%3D%3D&se=001GZygKZI2B6M%3D&t=001vmfB_5MdzRnRDawhwsF7gA%3D%3 > D&lang=001FCSs65SMrsI%3D&reason=001y5KaVlBn7_Y%3D&llr=dpqs87bab > if you no longer wish to receive our emails. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Advocates' Action Alert > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > May 17, 2011 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Your immediate action is needed to help hundreds of thousands of students with print > disabilities. > Secretary of Education Arne Duncan is wavering on his commitment to hold a competition > to fund accessible educational materials and textbooks for the hundreds of thousands > of students who cannot use a standard textbook. > You need to e-mail Secretary Duncan's office today to urge him to hold the competition > and preserve the program. > Under the FY 2011 budget passed by the Congress, Secretary Duncan has the discretion > to hold a competition for the development, production and distribution of educational > materials in accessible formats to students with visual impairments and other print > disabilities. The US Department of Education has supported this project for more > than 30 years, and President Obama included it in his FY 2011 budget plan. Now > the Secretary might use these funds for other projects! > The Secretary needs to hear from you today to prevent the shifting of funds away > from this vital program. > The Secretary might make his decision as soon as the end of the week so we need > you to e-mail him today. Your voice and that of hundreds of other supporters urged > the Congress to preserve the funding in the budget, and Congress heard you and took > action. Now we need your voice to urge Secretary Duncan to preserve the funding > for accessible materials and to hold the competition. > Hundreds of thousands of students benefit from this program each year and if the > Secretary does not fund it this year its future is unknown. We need your voice > to be heard again! > Please e-mail Secretary Duncan's office today. We have included the sample language > below to help you in making your e-mail. Please add your personal story, name and > hometown to your message! > > Secretary Duncan's e-mail is arne.duncan at ed.gov [mailto:arne.duncan at ed.gov] > > RE: Urgent Support Needed for Students with Print Disabilities > > Dear Secretary Duncan: > > I am writing to share with you my support for the accessible educational materials > project and Learning Ally. > > Learning Ally has a long-established relationship with the Department of Education > and has had broad support in Congress, state departments of education and 10,000 > schools from coast to coast. I urge you to continue that support by holding a competition > for the development, production and distribution of educational materials in accessible > formats to students with visual impairments and other print disabilities. > > Learning Ally is a critical partner in the success of hundreds of thousands of students, > and federal support of their efforts, leveraged with private philanthropy, has made > much of their work possible. Continue USDE's 30-year commitment to students with > disabilities and hold the competition. > > Sincerely, > > As we keep the pressure up on the Department with our allies in Congress, we will > update our Policy Advocates' Center [http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&et=1105572670725&s=16691 > 9&e=001FfuQMRzeCrgE35apgH7EpeV4eIanE_Lcwh_2fHiZuYM3xhLZlOn_auNhQm > RfFgmWpwXiyhZn44xSapplvLzXILIcP7vgyL63-vWHCSHwmzV5e2Z05b9Xrgudztd > dFpdWvkB940dk46VpA2F8Ge9Kgux_m7DCvy7suoPCmqlPewZSd4_GoKHY7A==] > with developments as they occur. We will also share critical Advocates' Action Alerts > with you when key decisions are to be made. > Your support has helped to preserve this program so far, and will be a key to its > future! > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > A national nonprofit since 1948 - LearningAlly.org [http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&et=1105572670725&s=16691 > 9&e=001FfuQMRzeCrgoNLPD4Cp41ENxAYtONei2WR27ECD2DzBpvoczNaq5ad2495 > bxPXcoO9KwbZE__j0gKa8QxV_xUMsTjhGobuj-xgA5nltWJ8moesPL_oXPuQ==] > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > ©2011 Learning Ally, Inc. All rights reserved. LearningAlly(TM), Making reading > accessible for all(TM), the "Access" icon, Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic®, > RFB&D® and all trademarks and service marks are owned by Learning Ally, Inc. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Forward this email > http://ui.constantcontact.com/sa/fwtf.jsp?llr=dpqs87bab&m=1101553 > 811939&ea=dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com&a=1105572670725 > > > This email was sent to dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com by advocacy at learningally.org. > > Update Profile/Email Address > http://visitor.constantcontact.com/do?p=oo&m=001K33QEjKvDIIHs3Uws > ZPI7A%3D%3D&se=001GZygKZI2B6M%3D&t=001vmfB_5MdzRnRDawhwsF7gA%3D%3 > D&lang=001FCSs65SMrsI%3D&reason=001y5KaVlBn7_Y%3D&llr=dpqs87bab > > > Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe(TM) > http://visitor.constantcontact.com/do?p=un&m=001K33QEjKvDIIHs3Uws > ZPI7A%3D%3D&se=001GZygKZI2B6M%3D&t=001vmfB_5MdzRnRDawhwsF7gA%3D%3 > D&lang=001FCSs65SMrsI%3D&reason=001y5KaVlBn7_Y%3D&llr=dpqs87bab > > > Privacy Policy: > http://ui.constantcontact.com/roving/CCPrivacyPolicy.jsp > > > > > Learning Ally | 20 Roszel Road | Princeton | NJ | 08540 > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Tue May 17 21:53:22 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 17:53:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] MS Excel and accessibility In-Reply-To: <4dd2d31c.a872340a.53ac.09e6@mx.google.com> References: <4dd2d31c.a872340a.53ac.09e6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris. I'm not familiar with the latest exell, but it looks ok with JFW. It lays out as a regular grid--a threw I believe p, and 1 threw something--I can't remember the botom number and you just do it with tab and the arrow keys. I suggest: though I"m not sure if this is exactly how the feature work since I'm just getting started with Windows after a 3 year mac period, that you layout the spread sheet first by labeling the columns then inserting the data, and then go to the option that says "show as graph" or "chart" or something like that. Again, I haven't used Xcell in a long time but that feature should exist as something along those lines. Sorry I can't help further. Jorge On May 17, 2011, at 3:57 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi, all! > > Lately in science class, we've been doing a lot of assignments involving graphing data from an experiment, or lab, into MS Excel. Since we haven't tried it on my computer, and my TVI doesn't know a lot about its interaction with screen readers (JAWS in particular) we make the graph manually on my Braillewriter, which is tedious and time-consuming (at least more time-consuming than doing it in Excel.) This can amount to be pretty annoying. My classmates are getting the graph done on the computer in no time and are moving on to notes that are homework if not finished in class, and having enough time to finish the notes and have no homework! However, I didn't even have time to start on the notes because the graph took so long to make (from scratch) on the Brailler, and had to do it all at home. * Frown. So, I'd like to know how accessible Excel is to screen readers, especially in making graphs or spread sheets. What have your experiences been with Excel and are there any tips or tricks you use with it? Or do I still have to go old-school and do it on the Brailler? (smile) Any help would be apreciated! Thanks! > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue May 17 23:29:03 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 19:29:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] MS Excel and accessibility In-Reply-To: <201105171748.1qms7P1by3Nl34l1@mx-emperor.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <201105171748.1qms7P1by3Nl34l1@mx-emperor.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Zach, How much does Carrol tech cost? Did you take the excell class and what did you learn? -----Original Message----- From: dreicer, zachary Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 5:46 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] MS Excel and accessibility pretty good! there's a carroll tech class if you want to pay for instruction. Let me know and I can get you the link to their site Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: �ris Nusbaum Hi Listers, can someone tell me how to tern off audo forms mode in jaws? Thanks. Rania, From aadkins7 at verizon.net Wed May 18 00:19:06 2011 From: aadkins7 at verizon.net (Anita Adkins) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 20:19:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Terning off audo forms mode In-Reply-To: <4dd30652.4969e50a.33ba.22d6@mx.google.com> References: <4dd30652.4969e50a.33ba.22d6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5BDF80A76E0B4284BF32DB6434C01B98@AnitaHP> Hello, I simply hit the escape key to turn off forms mode. Anita -----Original Message----- From: Rania Ismail Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 7:35 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Terning off audo forms mode Hi Listers, can someone tell me how to tern off audo forms mode in jaws? Thanks. Rania, _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed May 18 00:34:25 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 20:34:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] logic Message-ID: Hi all: Can anyone link me to an explenation of the Q/P table for logic? Its a question that appeared on my math homework but we've never studied it. Please help asap. Thanks, Jorge From k7uij at panix.com Wed May 18 00:39:32 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 17:39:32 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Terning off audo forms mode In-Reply-To: <5BDF80A76E0B4284BF32DB6434C01B98@AnitaHP> References: <4dd30652.4969e50a.33ba.22d6@mx.google.com> <5BDF80A76E0B4284BF32DB6434C01B98@AnitaHP> Message-ID: <00b601cc14f4$0e9fa120$2bdee360$@panix.com> Seems to me that if you have gone into Forms Mode, just hit the "PC Cursor" key and you'll go out of forms mode but still be on the edit field. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Anita Adkins Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 5:19 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Terning off audo forms mode Hello, I simply hit the escape key to turn off forms mode. Anita -----Original Message----- From: Rania Ismail Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 7:35 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Terning off audo forms mode Hi Listers, can someone tell me how to tern off audo forms mode in jaws? Thanks. Rania, _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.n et _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Wed May 18 00:50:41 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 20:50:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Terning off audo forms mode In-Reply-To: <00b601cc14f4$0e9fa120$2bdee360$@panix.com> Message-ID: <4dd317e2.8a4ee50a.604c.23a1@mx.google.com> Ok but will that let me use the enter key to tern forms mode on and off? Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Freeman Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 8:40 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Terning off audo forms mode Seems to me that if you have gone into Forms Mode, just hit the "PC Cursor" key and you'll go out of forms mode but still be on the edit field. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Anita Adkins Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 5:19 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Terning off audo forms mode Hello, I simply hit the escape key to turn off forms mode. Anita -----Original Message----- From: Rania Ismail Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 7:35 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Terning off audo forms mode Hi Listers, can someone tell me how to tern off audo forms mode in jaws? Thanks. Rania, _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.n et _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmai l.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1375 / Virus Database: 1509/3643 - Release Date: 05/17/11 From tonton at insightbb.com Wed May 18 00:55:20 2011 From: tonton at insightbb.com (Tonia Gatton) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 20:55:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Get Your NFB Whozit Key Chain Online Message-ID: Hi Federationists! The National Federation of the Blind of Kentucky is selling NFB Whozit key chains. Hanging from the sturdy key ring is a shiny silver disc with "NFB" laser cut on one side and the Whozit logo on the opposite side. The disc measures 1-1/4" and the length of the entire key chain is 2-1/2. These very attractive key chains are $10 each. You can beat the Convention rush and buy yours online now through my Ebay page at http://myworld.ebay.com/gattonia/. Or, if you prefer a direct link to the key chain, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/National-Federation-Blind-Key-Chain-Whozit-/120724874439?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1bc364c7 Look forward to seeing everyone in Orlando! Tonia Gatton, NFBK Board Member Check out my EBay page for great deals on clothes, jewelry, collectibles, antiques, assistive technology and much more. http://myworld.ebay.com/gattonia/ Tonia From k7uij at panix.com Wed May 18 01:31:37 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 18:31:37 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Terning off audo forms mode In-Reply-To: <4dd317e2.8a4ee50a.604c.23a1@mx.google.com> References: <00b601cc14f4$0e9fa120$2bdee360$@panix.com> <4dd317e2.8a4ee50a.604c.23a1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <00b701cc14fb$5591d830$00b58890$@panix.com> Enter turns it back on again. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rania Ismail CMT Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 5:51 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Terning off audo forms mode Ok but will that let me use the enter key to tern forms mode on and off? Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Freeman Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 8:40 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Terning off audo forms mode Seems to me that if you have gone into Forms Mode, just hit the "PC Cursor" key and you'll go out of forms mode but still be on the edit field. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Anita Adkins Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 5:19 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Terning off audo forms mode Hello, I simply hit the escape key to turn off forms mode. Anita -----Original Message----- From: Rania Ismail Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 7:35 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Terning off audo forms mode Hi Listers, can someone tell me how to tern off audo forms mode in jaws? Thanks. Rania, _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.n et _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmai l.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1375 / Virus Database: 1509/3643 - Release Date: 05/17/11 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From z.dreicer at emissives.com Wed May 18 01:48:57 2011 From: z.dreicer at emissives.com (dreicer, zachary) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 19:48:57 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] logic Message-ID: never heard of it. what math are you in? stats, per chance? Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez References: <4dd32608.8cee2a0a.673a.54f9SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: No, probability. On May 17, 2011, at 9:48 PM, dreicer, zachary wrote: > never heard of it. what math are you in? stats, per chance? > > Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 20:34:25 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] logic > > Hi all: > Can anyone link me to an explenation of the Q/P table for logic? > Its a question that appeared on my math homework but we've never studied it. > > Please help asap. > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer > %40emissives.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From z.dreicer at emissives.com Wed May 18 02:02:38 2011 From: z.dreicer at emissives.com (dreicer, zachary) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 20:02:38 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] logic Message-ID: the entire class is about probability? I wish I had one like that! Or is it just one of the things you're studying Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez References: <4dd32922.d43e2b0a.6087.6451SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Jorge, You aren't talking about truth tables, by chance? If you are, email me off-list and I might be able to help a little. Best regards, Kirt On 5/17/11, dreicer, zachary wrote: > the entire class is about probability? I wish I had one like > that! Or is it just one of the things you're studying > > Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 21:59:10 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] logic > > No, > probability. > > > On May 17, 2011, at 9:48 PM, dreicer, zachary wrote: > > never heard of it. what math are you in? stats, per chance? > > Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 20:34:25 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] logic > > Hi all: > Can anyone link me to an explenation of the Q/P table for logic? > Its a question that appeared on my math homework but we've never > studied it. > > Please help asap. > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer > %40emissives.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer > %40emissives.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net Wed May 18 02:44:23 2011 From: gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net (Hai Nguyen Ly) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 21:44:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] PacMate for sale Message-ID: <53BF5017-40F6-4523-B944-8A7D8050B894@sbcglobal.net> Good evening all, I am posting the following sale for a friend. If interested, please feel free to contact her using the information listed in the following message. *** I have a pacmate qx440 for sale. It is running 4.0 of the firmware and has a scratch in the upper left corner. The braille display is in excellent condition and gently used. It has the charger, a usb cable, an executive products leather case for the pacmate but doesn't integrate the braille display in that case. There is a vinal case which is separate for the braille display. I'm asking $800 including shipping. If interested please email me at kelly at handytech.us. From anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com Wed May 18 08:03:52 2011 From: anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com (Anmol Bhatia) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 01:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <832902.16163.qm@web162009.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hello Crystal, Good to see you on here as well. Have you heard of Mobility Inter National? It is a international clearinghouse for people with disabilities. Along with promoting study abroad opportunities for youth with disabilities in the United States and helping international students with disabilities studying in the United States, they also do international development work to assist people with disabilities in developing countries. You should visit their webcite at www.miusa.org Come on MSN messenger so that we can catch up. We have alot to talk about. Anmol I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers. Hellen Keller --- On Tue, 5/3/11, Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 wrote: > From: Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2011, 8:14 PM > Hi Chris, > > Thanks for your suggestions. It's a great idea. I read both > magazines myself as well. I am not sure if Matilda Ziegler > still exist. I received an E-mail from Ruth Davis, former > editor, last year, and she told me that the Ziegler family > do not want to continue to sponsor the magazine anymore. > Instead, they prefer to invest the money to Yale medical > center to do research on eye disease related subject. Not > sure if Gregory Evanina fought over the case. I visited > their headquarter  office in New York when I was 19 > which was in 2007. > > I spoke to Gary a few times and had some contacts with him. > I'll try to write an article about Bethel Home later for > sure. Once again, your ideas are great! Thanks. > > Running around the world is pretty fun but get exhausted > sometime. To adjust the jet lag several times a year is not > that easy. Hope to see you at the NFB convention sometime. I > am still deciding whether I should go this year or next. > > Regards, > Crystal > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:13 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in > China > > > Hi, Crystal. > > Good for you! I'm glad you're so active in helping blind > children > overseas live fully independent lives! Maybe a good idea > would be > to write up a little article about Bethel and the kids > there to > put in the Braille Monitor.  I think by putting > something in the > Monitor, you would be reaching out to a lot of people who > might > be able and willing to help! It says in the magazine that > articles for the Monitor can go to the editor, Gary Wunder, > who > happens to be on the Blind Talk list if you're on > that.  You can > mail your article to: National Federation of the Blind, > Attention > Gary Wunder.  200 East Wells Street, Baltimore, > Maryland, 21230. > You can also email your article to gwunder at nfb.org.  > You can go > to www.nfb.org for more information.  Hope this > helps! > P.S.  You could also put an article in the Matilda > Ziegler > Magazine for the Blind, an independent magazine for the > blind, > not affiliated with any organization providing news, > information, > and commentary on the issues facing the blind.  You > can send an > email to Ross Hammond, the editor of the Ziegler at > editor at matildaziegler.com.  > You can check out > www.matildaziegler.com to get more info! > P.P.S.  Please understand that I'm not affiliated in > any way with > neither the Monitor nor the Ziegler.  I'm just a > reader of both > who thought these magazines might help you in your > efforts. > > > Chris Nusbaum > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities > motto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jing Crystal Wu ?닸쇂 To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Tue, 3 May 2011 04:13:59 +0200 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in > China > > Dear Beth, > > I am teaching English at the center, and also doing > project > consultant work. > So far, we have one mobility instructor from California, > one > multiple-disability educator from France, one blind > Braille > teacher, one > music teacher, and five Chinese teachers.  Of course, > the > orphanage have many > care-givers, administraters, fund raisers, public relation > manager and staff > members.  Bethel has foster care, education and > self-care > training for kids. > Bethel even has its own farm field, so the kids can help to > feed > dogs, > goats, chickens, ducks.  Right now, I am trying to > push to open > up a job > training course; however, I can't stay in Beijing for too > long. > If any of > you is interested to do job training, counciling, > independence > training, I > am sure you will be very helpful in Bethel. > > I must encourage kids to learn, to live and to travel > independently.  It'll > be wonderful if we can something together.  My skype > is > jing.wu.crystal > MSN: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com > > Sincerely, > Crystal > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Beth" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:57 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in > China > > > Crystal, > What can the folks at the CCB in Denver, Colorado do for > the > orphanage?  What can any ordinary people do to help > the kids?  I > am > interested in helping blind people overseas too, but not > China > necessarily.  But it's fascinating.  Do you have > Skype?  Do > write me > off list at > thebluesisloose at gmail.com > > Thank you, > Beth Taurasi > > On 5/2/11, Jing Crystal Wu ?닸쇂 > > wrote: > Dear all, > > I am currently working in an orphanage for the blind in > Beijing. > Bethel > Home > has 45 blind children, and it's a NGO orphanage run by a > french > couple. > Just > wonder if any students will be interested to do internship > or > volunteer > work > in Beijing.  You may visit > www.bethelchina.org > > Most of the kids speak English and Chinese.  Many of > the > volunteers are > from > Europe and North America.  Too bad I have to return to > school in > Stockholm > this summer.  Hope any of you can support and help the > kids in > any way you > can.  Thanks. > > Sincerely, > Crystal > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tina Hansen" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Cc: "Correspondence Committee Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:51 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Food for Thought: Presenting Our Message > as > Theater > > > Not long ago, I learned that the Braille Institute in Los > Angeles, > California, produced a series of recordings called Sound > Solutions.  They > present tools and techniques for coping with blindness and > vision loss > in > a number of dramatic formats.  I thought: it might be > cool if we > could do > that.  We do have a play at our National convention, > but that's > about it. > > I'm not sure if I agree with everything they present, but > I > still think > we > > can learn from it.  To get an idea of what they do, > you can go > to > > http://www.airsla.org/soundsolutions.asp > > The episodes cover topics such as: home management, coping > skills, and > many other topics, and with one exception, most of them are > 30 > minutes > or > less. > > I'm presenting this for what it's worth, since I know that > we > have some > creative people out there, and I also know that if we can > present our > message in a creative way, it might interest the younger > generation. > Check > > it out.  Thanks. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing198 > 61209%40hotmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesi > sloose%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing198 > 61209%40hotmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com > From wujing19861209 at hotmail.com Wed May 18 09:20:47 2011 From: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Jing_Crystal_Wu_=E5=90=B4=E6=99=B6?=) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 11:20:47 +0200 Subject: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China References: <832902.16163.qm@web162009.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Anmol, Great to hear from you. Yes, I heard of both Mobility International and Braille without border. In fact, I was in touch with both of these organizations. I have to go to Beijing city on May 27. I guess sometime in June will be a lot better. Probably sometime like June 10 or even 11, 12. What do you think? Regards, Crystal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anmol Bhatia" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China > Hello Crystal, > Good to see you on here as well. Have you heard of Mobility Inter > National? It is a international clearinghouse for people with > disabilities. Along with promoting study abroad opportunities for youth > with disabilities in the United States and helping international students > with disabilities studying in the United States, they also do > international development work to assist people with disabilities in > developing countries. > You should visit their webcite at > www.miusa.org > > Come on MSN messenger so that we can catch up. We have alot to talk about. > Anmol > I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps > there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze > among flowers. > Hellen Keller > > > --- On Tue, 5/3/11, Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 > wrote: > >> From: Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2011, 8:14 PM >> Hi Chris, >> >> Thanks for your suggestions. It's a great idea. I read both >> magazines myself as well. I am not sure if Matilda Ziegler >> still exist. I received an E-mail from Ruth Davis, former >> editor, last year, and she told me that the Ziegler family >> do not want to continue to sponsor the magazine anymore. >> Instead, they prefer to invest the money to Yale medical >> center to do research on eye disease related subject. Not >> sure if Gregory Evanina fought over the case. I visited >> their headquarter office in New York when I was 19 >> which was in 2007. >> >> I spoke to Gary a few times and had some contacts with him. >> I'll try to write an article about Bethel Home later for >> sure. Once again, your ideas are great! Thanks. >> >> Running around the world is pretty fun but get exhausted >> sometime. To adjust the jet lag several times a year is not >> that easy. Hope to see you at the NFB convention sometime. I >> am still deciding whether I should go this year or next. >> >> Regards, >> Crystal >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" >> >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:13 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in >> China >> >> >> Hi, Crystal. >> >> Good for you! I'm glad you're so active in helping blind >> children >> overseas live fully independent lives! Maybe a good idea >> would be >> to write up a little article about Bethel and the kids >> there to >> put in the Braille Monitor. I think by putting >> something in the >> Monitor, you would be reaching out to a lot of people who >> might >> be able and willing to help! It says in the magazine that >> articles for the Monitor can go to the editor, Gary Wunder, >> who >> happens to be on the Blind Talk list if you're on >> that. You can >> mail your article to: National Federation of the Blind, >> Attention >> Gary Wunder. 200 East Wells Street, Baltimore, >> Maryland, 21230. >> You can also email your article to gwunder at nfb.org. >> You can go >> to www.nfb.org for more information. Hope this >> helps! >> P.S. You could also put an article in the Matilda >> Ziegler >> Magazine for the Blind, an independent magazine for the >> blind, >> not affiliated with any organization providing news, >> information, >> and commentary on the issues facing the blind. You >> can send an >> email to Ross Hammond, the editor of the Ziegler at >> editor at matildaziegler.com. >> You can check out >> www.matildaziegler.com to get more info! >> P.P.S. Please understand that I'm not affiliated in >> any way with >> neither the Monitor nor the Ziegler. I'm just a >> reader of both >> who thought these magazines might help you in your >> efforts. >> >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities >> motto) >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jing Crystal Wu ?닸쇂> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Tue, 3 May 2011 04:13:59 +0200 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in >> China >> >> Dear Beth, >> >> I am teaching English at the center, and also doing >> project >> consultant work. >> So far, we have one mobility instructor from California, >> one >> multiple-disability educator from France, one blind >> Braille >> teacher, one >> music teacher, and five Chinese teachers. Of course, >> the >> orphanage have many >> care-givers, administraters, fund raisers, public relation >> manager and staff >> members. Bethel has foster care, education and >> self-care >> training for kids. >> Bethel even has its own farm field, so the kids can help to >> feed >> dogs, >> goats, chickens, ducks. Right now, I am trying to >> push to open >> up a job >> training course; however, I can't stay in Beijing for too >> long. >> If any of >> you is interested to do job training, counciling, >> independence >> training, I >> am sure you will be very helpful in Bethel. >> >> I must encourage kids to learn, to live and to travel >> independently. It'll >> be wonderful if we can something together. My skype >> is >> jing.wu.crystal >> MSN: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com >> >> Sincerely, >> Crystal >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Beth" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:57 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in >> China >> >> >> Crystal, >> What can the folks at the CCB in Denver, Colorado do for >> the >> orphanage? What can any ordinary people do to help >> the kids? I >> am >> interested in helping blind people overseas too, but not >> China >> necessarily. But it's fascinating. Do you have >> Skype? Do >> write me >> off list at >> thebluesisloose at gmail.com >> >> Thank you, >> Beth Taurasi >> >> On 5/2/11, Jing Crystal Wu ?닸쇂 >> >> wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> I am currently working in an orphanage for the blind in >> Beijing. >> Bethel >> Home >> has 45 blind children, and it's a NGO orphanage run by a >> french >> couple. >> Just >> wonder if any students will be interested to do internship >> or >> volunteer >> work >> in Beijing. You may visit >> www.bethelchina.org >> >> Most of the kids speak English and Chinese. Many of >> the >> volunteers are >> from >> Europe and North America. Too bad I have to return to >> school in >> Stockholm >> this summer. Hope any of you can support and help the >> kids in >> any way you >> can. Thanks. >> >> Sincerely, >> Crystal >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tina Hansen" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Cc: "Correspondence Committee Mailing List" >> > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:51 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Food for Thought: Presenting Our Message >> as >> Theater >> >> >> Not long ago, I learned that the Braille Institute in Los >> Angeles, >> California, produced a series of recordings called Sound >> Solutions. They >> present tools and techniques for coping with blindness and >> vision loss >> in >> a number of dramatic formats. I thought: it might be >> cool if we >> could do >> that. We do have a play at our National convention, >> but that's >> about it. >> >> I'm not sure if I agree with everything they present, but >> I >> still think >> we >> >> can learn from it. To get an idea of what they do, >> you can go >> to >> >> http://www.airsla.org/soundsolutions.asp >> >> The episodes cover topics such as: home management, coping >> skills, and >> many other topics, and with one exception, most of them are >> 30 >> minutes >> or >> less. >> >> I'm presenting this for what it's worth, since I know that >> we >> have some >> creative people out there, and I also know that if we can >> present our >> message in a creative way, it might interest the younger >> generation. >> Check >> >> it out. Thanks. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing198 >> 61209%40hotmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesi >> sloose%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing198 >> 61209%40hotmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com > From anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com Wed May 18 09:35:13 2011 From: anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com (Anmol Bhatia) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 02:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <957203.97021.qm@web162015.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> June 12 or 13 sounds good. Anmol I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers. Hellen Keller --- On Wed, 5/18/11, Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 wrote: > From: Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in China > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date: Wednesday, May 18, 2011, 4:20 AM > Dear Anmol, > > Great to hear from you. Yes, I heard of both Mobility > International and > Braille without border. In fact, I was in touch with both > of these > organizations. I have to go to Beijing city on May 27. I > guess sometime in > June will be a lot better. Probably sometime like June 10 > or even 11, 12. > What do you think? > > Regards, > Crystal > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Anmol Bhatia" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 10:03 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind orphans in > China > > > > Hello Crystal, > > Good to see you on here as well. Have you heard of > Mobility Inter > > National? It is a international clearinghouse for > people with > > disabilities. Along with promoting study abroad > opportunities for youth > > with disabilities in the United States and helping > international students > > with disabilities studying in the United States, they > also do > > international development work to assist people with > disabilities in > > developing countries. > > You should visit their webcite at > > www.miusa.org > > > > Come on MSN messenger so that we can catch up. We have > alot to talk about. > > Anmol > > I seldom think about my limitations, and they never > make me sad. Perhaps > > there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is > vague, like a breeze > > among flowers. > > Hellen Keller > > > > > > --- On Tue, 5/3/11, Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 > > > wrote: > > > >> From: Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind > orphans in China > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students > mailing list" > >> > >> Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2011, 8:14 PM > >> Hi Chris, > >> > >> Thanks for your suggestions. It's a great idea. I > read both > >> magazines myself as well. I am not sure if Matilda > Ziegler > >> still exist. I received an E-mail from Ruth Davis, > former > >> editor, last year, and she told me that the > Ziegler family > >> do not want to continue to sponsor the magazine > anymore. > >> Instead, they prefer to invest the money to Yale > medical > >> center to do research on eye disease related > subject. Not > >> sure if Gregory Evanina fought over the case. I > visited > >> their headquarter office in New York when I was > 19 > >> which was in 2007. > >> > >> I spoke to Gary a few times and had some contacts > with him. > >> I'll try to write an article about Bethel Home > later for > >> sure. Once again, your ideas are great! Thanks. > >> > >> Running around the world is pretty fun but get > exhausted > >> sometime. To adjust the jet lag several times a > year is not > >> that easy. Hope to see you at the NFB convention > sometime. I > >> am still deciding whether I should go this year or > next. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Crystal > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" > > >> > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students > mailing list" > >> > >> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:13 PM > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind > orphans in > >> China > >> > >> > >> Hi, Crystal. > >> > >> Good for you! I'm glad you're so active in helping > blind > >> children > >> overseas live fully independent lives! Maybe a > good idea > >> would be > >> to write up a little article about Bethel and the > kids > >> there to > >> put in the Braille Monitor. I think by putting > >> something in the > >> Monitor, you would be reaching out to a lot of > people who > >> might > >> be able and willing to help! It says in the > magazine that > >> articles for the Monitor can go to the editor, > Gary Wunder, > >> who > >> happens to be on the Blind Talk list if you're on > >> that. You can > >> mail your article to: National Federation of the > Blind, > >> Attention > >> Gary Wunder. 200 East Wells Street, Baltimore, > >> Maryland, 21230. > >> You can also email your article to gwunder at nfb.org. > >> You can go > >> to www.nfb.org for more information. Hope this > >> helps! > >> P.S. You could also put an article in the Matilda > >> Ziegler > >> Magazine for the Blind, an independent magazine > for the > >> blind, > >> not affiliated with any organization providing > news, > >> information, > >> and commentary on the issues facing the blind. > You > >> can send an > >> email to Ross Hammond, the editor of the Ziegler > at > >> editor at matildaziegler.com. > >> You can check out > >> www.matildaziegler.com to get more info! > >> P.P.S. Please understand that I'm not affiliated > in > >> any way with > >> neither the Monitor nor the Ziegler. I'm just a > >> reader of both > >> who thought these magazines might help you in > your > >> efforts. > >> > >> > >> Chris Nusbaum > >> > >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp > Abilities > >> motto) > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Jing Crystal Wu ?닸쇂 >> To: "National Association of Blind Students > mailing list" > >> >> Date sent: Tue, 3 May 2011 04:13:59 +0200 > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind > orphans in > >> China > >> > >> Dear Beth, > >> > >> I am teaching English at the center, and also > doing > >> project > >> consultant work. > >> So far, we have one mobility instructor from > California, > >> one > >> multiple-disability educator from France, one > blind > >> Braille > >> teacher, one > >> music teacher, and five Chinese teachers. Of > course, > >> the > >> orphanage have many > >> care-givers, administraters, fund raisers, public > relation > >> manager and staff > >> members. Bethel has foster care, education and > >> self-care > >> training for kids. > >> Bethel even has its own farm field, so the kids > can help to > >> feed > >> dogs, > >> goats, chickens, ducks. Right now, I am trying to > >> push to open > >> up a job > >> training course; however, I can't stay in Beijing > for too > >> long. > >> If any of > >> you is interested to do job training, counciling, > >> independence > >> training, I > >> am sure you will be very helpful in Bethel. > >> > >> I must encourage kids to learn, to live and to > travel > >> independently. It'll > >> be wonderful if we can something together. My > skype > >> is > >> jing.wu.crystal > >> MSN: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> Crystal > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Beth" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students > mailing list" > >> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:57 AM > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Volunteer to help blind > orphans in > >> China > >> > >> > >> Crystal, > >> What can the folks at the CCB in Denver, Colorado > do for > >> the > >> orphanage? What can any ordinary people do to > help > >> the kids? I > >> am > >> interested in helping blind people overseas too, > but not > >> China > >> necessarily. But it's fascinating. Do you have > >> Skype? Do > >> write me > >> off list at > >> thebluesisloose at gmail.com > >> > >> Thank you, > >> Beth Taurasi > >> > >> On 5/2/11, Jing Crystal Wu ?닸쇂 > >> > >> wrote: > >> Dear all, > >> > >> I am currently working in an orphanage for the > blind in > >> Beijing. > >> Bethel > >> Home > >> has 45 blind children, and it's a NGO orphanage > run by a > >> french > >> couple. > >> Just > >> wonder if any students will be interested to do > internship > >> or > >> volunteer > >> work > >> in Beijing. You may visit > >> www.bethelchina.org > >> > >> Most of the kids speak English and Chinese. Many > of > >> the > >> volunteers are > >> from > >> Europe and North America. Too bad I have to return > to > >> school in > >> Stockholm > >> this summer. Hope any of you can support and help > the > >> kids in > >> any way you > >> can. Thanks. > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> Crystal > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Tina Hansen" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students > mailing list" > >> >> Cc: "Correspondence Committee Mailing List" > >> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:51 AM > >> Subject: [nabs-l] Food for Thought: Presenting Our > Message > >> as > >> Theater > >> > >> > >> Not long ago, I learned that the Braille Institute > in Los > >> Angeles, > >> California, produced a series of recordings called > Sound > >> Solutions. They > >> present tools and techniques for coping with > blindness and > >> vision loss > >> in > >> a number of dramatic formats. I thought: it might > be > >> cool if we > >> could do > >> that. We do have a play at our National > convention, > >> but that's > >> about it. > >> > >> I'm not sure if I agree with everything they > present, but > >> I > >> still think > >> we > >> > >> can learn from it. To get an idea of what they > do, > >> you can go > >> to > >> > >> http://www.airsla.org/soundsolutions.asp > >> > >> The episodes cover topics such as: home > management, coping > >> skills, and > >> many other topics, and with one exception, most of > them are > >> 30 > >> minutes > >> or > >> less. > >> > >> I'm presenting this for what it's worth, since I > know that > >> we > >> have some > >> creative people out there, and I also know that if > we can > >> present our > >> message in a creative way, it might interest the > younger > >> generation. > >> Check > >> > >> it out. Thanks. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > your > >> account > >> info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing198 > >> 61209%40hotmail.com > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > your > >> account > >> info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesi > >> sloose%40gmail.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > your > >> account > >> info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing198 > >> 61209%40hotmail.com > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > your > >> account info > >> for nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > >> sbaum%40gmail.com > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or > get your > >> account info for nabs-l: > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com > >> > > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > your > >> account info for nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wujing19861209%40hotmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com > From ignasicambra at gmail.com Wed May 18 10:54:17 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 06:54:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] logic In-Reply-To: References: <4dd32922.d43e2b0a.6087.6451SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <025E1D1E-9788-431A-B748-CECD8C2FD8B0@gmail.com> I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Bernoulli law... He's talking about tables with numbers called P and Q, so that would make sense:). P is generally the probability of an experiment succeeding and Q is the probability of failing. Then we can use an aleatory variable X which is equal to 1 for a success, and 0 for failure. This variable follows a Bernoulli law, and in high school they come up with all kinds of great problems about this stuff, the binomial law etc. I learned all this in French several years ago so my explanations in English are probably terrible anyways. On May 17, 2011, at 10:14 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Jorge, > You aren't talking about truth tables, by chance? If you are, email > me off-list and I might be able to help a little. > Best regards, > Kirt > > On 5/17/11, dreicer, zachary wrote: >> the entire class is about probability? I wish I had one like >> that! Or is it just one of the things you're studying >> >> Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jorge Paez > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 21:59:10 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] logic >> >> No, >> probability. >> >> >> On May 17, 2011, at 9:48 PM, dreicer, zachary wrote: >> >> never heard of it. what math are you in? stats, per chance? >> >> Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jorge Paez > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 20:34:25 -0400 >> Subject: [nabs-l] logic >> >> Hi all: >> Can anyone link me to an explenation of the Q/P table for logic? >> Its a question that appeared on my math homework but we've never >> studied it. >> >> Please help asap. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer >> %40emissives.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >> echjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer >> %40emissives.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Wed May 18 10:54:46 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 06:54:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] logic In-Reply-To: References: <4dd32922.d43e2b0a.6087.6451SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7C3DDCC6-E437-4268-B028-C2CDC4659423@gmail.com> I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Bernoulli law... He's talking about tables with numbers called P and Q, so that would make sense:). P is generally the probability of an experiment succeeding and Q is the probability of failing. Then we can use an aleatory variable X which is equal to 1 for a success, and 0 for failure. This variable follows a Bernoulli law, and in high school they come up with all kinds of great problems about this stuff, the binomial law etc. I learned all this in French several years ago so my explanations in English are probably terrible anyways. On May 17, 2011, at 10:14 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Jorge, > You aren't talking about truth tables, by chance? If you are, email > me off-list and I might be able to help a little. > Best regards, > Kirt > > On 5/17/11, dreicer, zachary wrote: >> the entire class is about probability? I wish I had one like >> that! Or is it just one of the things you're studying >> >> Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jorge Paez > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 21:59:10 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] logic >> >> No, >> probability. >> >> >> On May 17, 2011, at 9:48 PM, dreicer, zachary wrote: >> >> never heard of it. what math are you in? stats, per chance? >> >> Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jorge Paez > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 20:34:25 -0400 >> Subject: [nabs-l] logic >> >> Hi all: >> Can anyone link me to an explenation of the Q/P table for logic? >> Its a question that appeared on my math homework but we've never >> studied it. >> >> Please help asap. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer >> %40emissives.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >> echjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer >> %40emissives.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed May 18 11:46:17 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 07:46:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] logic In-Reply-To: <4dd32919.c7ef2a0a.15cd.58c1SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <4dd32919.c7ef2a0a.15cd.58c1SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <17D98268-EAFB-4031-84C1-74817A68B2D7@gmail.com> No, its just a week maybe two. On May 17, 2011, at 10:02 PM, dreicer, zachary wrote: > the entire class is about probability? I wish I had one like that! Or is it just one of the things you're studying > > Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 21:59:10 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] logic > > No, > probability. > > > On May 17, 2011, at 9:48 PM, dreicer, zachary wrote: > > never heard of it. what math are you in? stats, per chance? > > Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 20:34:25 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] logic > > Hi all: > Can anyone link me to an explenation of the Q/P table for logic? > Its a question that appeared on my math homework but we've never studied it. > > Please help asap. > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer > %40emissives.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer > %40emissives.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed May 18 11:51:37 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 07:51:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] logic In-Reply-To: <7C3DDCC6-E437-4268-B028-C2CDC4659423@gmail.com> References: <4dd32922.d43e2b0a.6087.6451SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <7C3DDCC6-E437-4268-B028-C2CDC4659423@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes. That's it. Thanks a lot Ignasi. Jorge On May 18, 2011, at 6:54 AM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Bernoulli law... He's talking about tables with numbers called P and Q, so that would make sense:). P is generally the probability of an experiment succeeding and Q is the probability of failing. Then we can use an aleatory variable X which is equal to 1 for a success, and 0 for failure. This variable follows a Bernoulli law, and in high school they come up with all kinds of great problems about this stuff, the binomial law etc. > I learned all this in French several years ago so my explanations in English are probably terrible anyways. > On May 17, 2011, at 10:14 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >> Jorge, >> You aren't talking about truth tables, by chance? If you are, email >> me off-list and I might be able to help a little. >> Best regards, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/17/11, dreicer, zachary wrote: >>> the entire class is about probability? I wish I had one like >>> that! Or is it just one of the things you're studying >>> >>> Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Jorge Paez >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 21:59:10 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] logic >>> >>> No, >>> probability. >>> >>> >>> On May 17, 2011, at 9:48 PM, dreicer, zachary wrote: >>> >>> never heard of it. what math are you in? stats, per chance? >>> >>> Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Jorge Paez >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 20:34:25 -0400 >>> Subject: [nabs-l] logic >>> >>> Hi all: >>> Can anyone link me to an explenation of the Q/P table for logic? >>> Its a question that appeared on my math homework but we've never >>> studied it. >>> >>> Please help asap. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer >>> %40emissives.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >>> echjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer >>> %40emissives.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From z.dreicer at emissives.com Wed May 18 12:42:40 2011 From: z.dreicer at emissives.com (dreicer, zachary) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 06:42:40 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] logic Message-ID: cool! i love probability and stats! Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez References: <4dd3bf48.0804650a.3172.ffffb011SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Yeah. I'm really good with numbers when it comes to the practical stuff, its Algebra and stuff like that that is mainly non-practical, E.G., mostly based on theory that i have issues with. Thanks for all the help, really appreciate it. Teacher told us we didn't have to figure that out since no one knew it but I was trying to get some extra credit on the questions and I needed that to explain my answer. Is that used in Computer Science a lot by the way? On May 18, 2011, at 8:42 AM, dreicer, zachary wrote: > cool! i love probability and stats! > > Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Wed, 18 May 2011 07:46:17 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] logic > > No, > its just a week maybe two. > > On May 17, 2011, at 10:02 PM, dreicer, zachary wrote: > > the entire class is about probability? I wish I had one like that! Or is it just one of the things you're studying > > Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 21:59:10 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] logic > > No, > probability. > > > On May 17, 2011, at 9:48 PM, dreicer, zachary wrote: > > never heard of it. what math are you in? stats, per chance? > > Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 20:34:25 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] logic > > Hi all: > Can anyone link me to an explenation of the Q/P table for logic? > Its a question that appeared on my math homework but we've never studied it. > > Please help asap. > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer > %40emissives.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer > %40emissives.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer > %40emissives.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed May 18 20:09:09 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C2ris=20Nusbaum?=) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 16:09:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?Launches_EyeNote=E2=84=A2App_to_Help_the_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?Blind_and_Visually_Impaired_Denominate_US_Currency?= Message-ID: <4dd42774.8a4ee50a.604c.4072@mx.google.com> I=20can=20imagine.=20=20Haha,=20government=20was=20wrong=20again=20in=20thi= nking=20they=20 can=20do=20everything=20better=20than=20the=20private=20sector.=20=20*=20Sm= ile!=20And=20 really?=20You=20have=20to=20snap=20a=20picture=20for=20it=20to=20recognize= =20the=20bill?=20 *=20Frown!=20That's=20what=20I=20*=20hated=20*=20about=20the=20KNFB=20Reade= r=20Classic=20 when=20NFBMD=20asked=20me=20to=20try=20out=20one=20of=20their=20first=20pro= totypes,=20 which=20happened=20to=20be=20the=20model=20chosen.=20=20Come=20on,=20people= ,=20the=20 technology's=20already=20there!=20Just=20use=20it!=20About=20privacy,=20um.= .=20=20 headphones?=20If=20you're=20so=20worried=20about=20privacy,=20then=20you'd= =20have=20 the=20same=20problem=20with=20VoiceOver. =20Chris "A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abilit= ies=20motto) ---=20Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote -----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Mike=20Freeman=20=20wrote: =20Sean, =20=20There=20is=20one=20that=20just=20reads=20out=20currency-it's=20called= =20LookTell=20 Money =20Reader.=20=20It=20costs=20a=20couple=20dollars,=20and=20it=20doesnt=20ha= ve=20the=20 vibrating =20feature=20that=20some=20people=20like.=20=20I=20say=20good=20for=20them-= diversity's=20 never =20a=20bad=20thing. =20=20Best, =20Kirt =20On=205/17/11,=20Sean=20Whalen=20=20wrote: =20Aren=E2=80=99t=20there=20already=20iPhone=20apps=20that=20do=20this? =20From:=20White=20House=20Disability=20Group=20 Huh? Why would a teacher give you homework on a subject you've never studied in class? Isn't the point of homework practicing what you've learned, or at least what the teachers say the point of homework is? Well, that won't change anything. You've still got the homework. * Smile! Try doing a Google search for it. Google has helped me with math homework many times. Also, you might want to try going to either of these Web sites and searching for it: www.mathisfun.com or www.classzone.com. On classzone.com, you can access many textbooks used in middle and high school. Try to find yours! If worse comes to worse and these sites aren't accessible, maybe you could ask your reader to help you if you have one or can get someone to be a reader for you. Hope this helps! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez Ok. Before I ask for the link, how much does it cost? Are there any free ways I can learn to work it, like an FS Cast or something? Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: "dreicer, zachary" From z.dreicer at emissives.com Wed May 18 21:05:03 2011 From: z.dreicer at emissives.com (dreicer, zachary) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 15:05:03 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] logic Message-ID: i think so ... Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez Hi everyone, I know that perhaps this isn't a subject that directly deals with this list, but this is also a list made up of blind people who always help one another out with new things. So, here's the deal. I just got a great deal on phone, Internet, and TV. The TV is with DirectTV and part of that comes with a DVR. With the latest technological advances, is it possible for a totally blind person like myself to use a DVR with any sort of ease? I know that some can be managed via a computer, and if that's the case, how well does something like that work with JAWS? Does anyone know anything about this? What about an IPhone? Does anyone know about that? If this is the case, then I'll keep the DVR. If not, then it probably doesn't make sense to have it, does it? Please share your thoughts either on or off list. I apologize for the subject matter. Jim Portillo From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 18 22:05:03 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 16:05:03 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] logic In-Reply-To: <4dd42c70.a79e340a.085a.1d4c@mx.google.com> References: <4dd42c70.a79e340a.085a.1d4c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Chris, I've had teachers, especially in High School going up to college, who give me problems on stuff not covered in class-although it never happened in math. A good way to increase problem solving skills, I suppose. On 5/18/11, Âris Nusbaum wrote: > Huh? Why would a teacher give you homework on a subject you've > never studied in class? Isn't the point of homework practicing > what you've learned, or at least what the teachers say the point > of homework is? Well, that won't change anything. You've still > got the homework. * Smile! Try doing a Google search for it. > Google has helped me with math homework many times. Also, you > might want to try going to either of these Web sites and > searching for it: www.mathisfun.com or www.classzone.com. On > classzone.com, you can access many textbooks used in middle and > high school. Try to find yours! If worse comes to worse and > these sites aren't accessible, maybe you could ask your reader to > help you if you have one or can get someone to be a reader for > you. Hope this helps! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 20:34:25 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] logic > > Hi all: > Can anyone link me to an explenation of the Q/P table for logic? > Its a question that appeared on my math homework but we've never > studied it. > > Please help asap. > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dlawless86 at gmail.com Wed May 18 23:00:26 2011 From: dlawless86 at gmail.com (Domonique Lawless) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 18:00:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Question on using DVR In-Reply-To: <00bf01cc15a4$579145e0$06b3d1a0$@earthlink.net> References: <00bf01cc15a4$579145e0$06b3d1a0$@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Jim, Most TV providers allow you to access DVR through the internet now. I don't know if you can set up programming or just control when shows are programmed but I think it'd probably be fairly accessible. I've even seen a lot of apps for smartphones that allow you to do the same thing. The tricky part is accessing the shows you've recorded. A lot of DVR's will either put your shows in folders or list different shows in order of air date. Either way if you know when a new episode is supposed to be on then with a little maneuvering with the arrows, enter, and last buttons you should get to your shows just fine. I hope this helps. Domonique > Hi everyone, > > > > I know that perhaps this isn't a subject that directly deals with this list, > but this is also a list made up of blind people who always help one another > out with new things. > > > > So, here's the deal. > > I just got a great deal on phone, Internet, and TV. The TV is with DirectTV > and part of that comes with a DVR. With the latest technological advances, > is it possible for a totally blind person like myself to use a DVR with any > sort of ease? > > I know that some can be managed via a computer, and if that's the case, how > well does something like that work with JAWS? Does anyone know anything > about this? What about an IPhone? Does anyone know about that? > > If this is the case, then I'll keep the DVR. If not, then it probably > doesn't make sense to have it, does it? > > Please share your thoughts either on or off list. > > I apologize for the subject matter. > > Jim Portillo > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dlawless86%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Wed May 18 23:45:41 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 19:45:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] logic In-Reply-To: References: <4dd42c70.a79e340a.085a.1d4c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4F72061C-88C1-43DD-A99B-CF2DB42C0844@gmail.com> Exactly... I've had teachers like that all my life. There's always some stuff which you are responsible for, even if the teacher doesn't talk about it in class. On May 18, 2011, at 6:05 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Chris, > I've had teachers, especially in High School going up to college, > who give me problems on stuff not covered in class-although it never > happened in math. A good way to increase problem solving skills, I > suppose. > > On 5/18/11, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >> Huh? Why would a teacher give you homework on a subject you've >> never studied in class? Isn't the point of homework practicing >> what you've learned, or at least what the teachers say the point >> of homework is? Well, that won't change anything. You've still >> got the homework. * Smile! Try doing a Google search for it. >> Google has helped me with math homework many times. Also, you >> might want to try going to either of these Web sites and >> searching for it: www.mathisfun.com or www.classzone.com. On >> classzone.com, you can access many textbooks used in middle and >> high school. Try to find yours! If worse comes to worse and >> these sites aren't accessible, maybe you could ask your reader to >> help you if you have one or can get someone to be a reader for >> you. Hope this helps! >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jorge Paez > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 20:34:25 -0400 >> Subject: [nabs-l] logic >> >> Hi all: >> Can anyone link me to an explenation of the Q/P table for logic? >> Its a question that appeared on my math homework but we've never >> studied it. >> >> Please help asap. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu May 19 00:09:03 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C2ris=20Nusbaum?=) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 20:09:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindtlk] Fwd: [HIMS-News] Announcing Sense notetaker v6.0!! Message-ID: <4dd45fb0.8d8de50a.6df0.481a@mx.google.com> Thought=20you=20all=20might=20be=20interested=20in=20this,=20especially=20t= he=20Hims=20 users.=20=20Yea=20for=20you,=20Hims=20has=20finally=20gotten=20somewhat=20c= ompetivite=20 with=20Humanware's=20BrailleNote=20Apex!=20*=20Smile!=20Dave,=20I=20copied= =20you=20on=20 this=20so=20(if=20you'd=20like)=20you=20could=20post=20it=20on=20the=20NFB= =20Announce=20 list. =20Chris "A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abilit= ies=20motto) ---=20Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote =20----=20Original=20Message=20------ From:=20David=20Andrews=20http://www.hims-inc.com/Upgrade/Braille_Sense_OnHand_En g_V60_20110517.zip Voice=20Sense=20QWERTY: http://www.hims-inc.com/Upgrade/Voice_Sense_Qwerty_Eng_V6 0_20110517.zip Braille=20Sense=20PLUS=20QWERTY: http://www.hims-inc.com/Upgrade/Braille_Sense_PLUS _QWERTY_Eng_V60_20110517.zip Braille=20Sense=20PLUS: http://www.hims-inc.com/Upgrade/Braille_Sense_PLUS_Eng_V6 0_20110517.zip Voice=20Sense: http://www.hims-inc.com/Upgrade/Voice_Sense_Eng_V60_20110517.zip Braille=20Sense=20Classic: http://www.hims-inc.com/Upgrade/Braille_Sense_Eng_V60_110517.zip Follow=20these=20steps=20to=20perform=20the=20offline=20upgrade. (1)=20=20Download=20the=20firmware=20file=20to=20your=20PC. (2)=20=20=20Extract=20the=20firmware=20file=20on=20your=20PC;=20there=20sho= uld=20be=20three=20 files. (3)=20=20Copy=20the=20three=20files=20and=20paste=20them=20into the=20root=20of=20an=20external=20storage=20device=20such=20as=20an=20SD=20= card=20or=20USB=20 thumb=20drive. (4)=20=20Insert=20the=20external=20storage=20device=20into=20the=20Sense=20= notetaker. (5)=20=20Connect=20the=20AC=20adaptor=20to=20the=20Sense=20notetaker. (6)=20=20Press=20F1=20(Win=20key)=20to=20bring=20focus=20to=20the=20main=20= Program=20menu. (7)=20=20Press=20U=20to=20open=20the=20Utilities=20Menu,=20then=20U again=20for=20Upgrade=20Firmware.=20=20The=20Sense=20notetaker displays/announces,=20"Upgrade:=20Online." (8)=20=20Press=20Down=20arrow=20or=20DOT-4=20with=20SPACE=20to=20choose=20"= Offline." (9)=20=20Press=20ENTER=20to=20check=20for=20new=20firmware.=20=20The Sense=20notetaker=20searches=20for=20the=20firmware=20files in=20the=20root=20of=20the=20storage=20device.=20=20If=20it=20finds=20a newer=20version=20of=20the=20firmware=20than=20you=20are currently=20running,=20it=20asks=20if=20you=20are=20sure=20you want=20to=20upgrade.=20=20The=20default=20is=20"Yes." (10)=20=20=20=20Press=20ENTER=20to=20initiate=20the=20upgrade=20process. The=20Sense=20notetaker=20copies=20the=20new=20firmware files=20and=20the=20upgrade=20process=20begins.=20=20During=20the firmware=20installation=20the=20percentage=20of=20the upgrade=20progress=20is=20displayed=20in=20Braille,=20and tones=20are=20also=20heard.=20=20It=20is=20vitally=20important that=20you=20do=20not=20press=20any=20buttons=20or=20power=20off the=20Sense=20notetaker=20during=20this=20process.=20=20When the=20upgrade=20is=20complete,=20the=20Sense=20notetaker reboots.=20=20Once=20"File=20Manager=20(f)"=20is=20displayed, press=20V=20with=20SPACE=20(Fn-V)=20to=20verify=20that=20it=20is=20running= =20the=20new=20 firmware. 3:=20Downloading=20and=20installing=20the=20Sense=20Bible. You=20may=20download=20the=20Sense=20Bible=20from=20the=20following=20Link:= http://www.hims- inc.com/Programs/SenseBible.zip Note:=20You=20cannot=20install=20this=20program=20until=20you have=20performed=20the=20firmware=20upgrade=20to=206.0. =20=20once=20downloaded,=20locate=20it=20in=20Windows=20Explorer,=20and=20p= erform=20an=20 Extract=20All. When=20extracted,=20you=20will=20find=20a=20folder=20within=20it=20called=20= HIMS. Please=20copy=20the=20HIMS=20folder=20to=20the=20root=20of=20your=20flashdi= sk=20or=20SD=20 card. Note:=20the=20HIMS=20folder=20and=20all=20its=20contents=20must be=20copied=20to=20the=20root=20of=20the=20SD=20card=20or flashdisk:=20the=20unit=20will=20scan=20the=20HIMS=20folder=20on every=20reset,=20if=20the=20data=20is=20not=20located=20there,=20the=20prog= ram=20will=20 not=20be=20loaded. Once=20the=20folder=20is=20copied=20perform=20a=20soft=20reset of=20the=20unit=20using=20the=20reset=20button=20on=20the=20back. After=20the=20unit=20reboots,=20the=20Sense=20Bible=20will=20be available=20under=20the=20Programs=20Menu=20located=20in=20the=20main=20men= u=20of=20the=20 notetaker. Note:=20if=20you=20choose=20to=20install=20the=20Bible=20program data=20on=20an=20SD=20card,=20this=20SD=20card=20must=20be inserted=20in=20the=20notetaker=20on=20reboot=20or=20the=20program=20disapp= ears. You=20can=20install=20it=20again=20by=20placing=20the=20SD=20card in=20the=20unit=20and=20resetting=20the=20unit=20once=20more. Also,=20if=20you=20try=20to=20access=20the=20program=20without the=20SD=20card=20inserted,=20you=20are=20given=20a=20message that=20the=20card=20must=20be=20inserted=20to=20access=20the=20data. Release=20Notes=20for=20Sense=20Notetaker=20version=206.0 2011-05-17 HIMS New=20features 1.=20=20=20=20=20General n=20=20Adds=20the=20ability=20to=20Input/Search=20for=20Control=20Character= s. n=20=20Adds=20a=20function=20to=20delete=20all=20system=20files=20on=20rebo= ot. n=20=20Removes=20the=20message,=20=93Are=20you=20sure?=94=20when=20deleting= =20a=20line. n=20=20Adds=20UEBC=20Braille=20rules=20and=20an=20option=20to switch=20between=20US=20Braille=20and=20UEBC=20Braille=20in=20the=20Global= =20Options. n=20=20Adds=20an=20=93Abbreviations=20on/off=20option=20in=20Global Options=20to=20control=20the=20way=20groups=20of=20letters=20are pronounced=20by=20the=20speech=20Synthesizer(TTS). n=20=20Adds=203=20new=20items=20to=20the=20Main=20Menu:=20Extras=20(x), Social=20Networking=20(c),=20and=20Programs=20(p). 2.=20=20=20=20=20File=20Manager n=20=20Adds=20support=20for=20sharing=20files=20over=20a=20=20Local Area=20Network:=20browse=20files=20on=20a=20remote=20PC=20and open=20them=20as=20you=20would=20on=20a=20drive=20connected=20to=20the=20Se= nse=20 Notetaker. 3.=20=20=20=20=20Word=20Processor n=20=20Adds=20the=20ability=20to=20read=20PDF=20files=20and=20save=20them=20= as=20Doc=20or=20 text=20format. n=20=20Adds=20the=20ability=20to=20read=20E-pub=20files=20and=20save=20them= =20as=20Doc=20or=20 text=20format. 4.=20=20=20=20=20Radio n=20=20Adds=20recording=20time=20information=20when=20recording=20live=20ra= dio=20 channel. n=20=20Adds=20hotkeys=20for=20adding,=20deleting=20and modifying=20presets.(Add:=20space-i/Alt-i=20,=20Delete: space-d/Delete,=20Modify:=20space-m/Alt-m) 5.=20=20=20=20=20E-mail =B7=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20Adds=20a=20confirmation=20prompt=20when=20try= ing to=20save=20an=20e-mail=20address=20that=20is=20already=20saved=20in=20the= =20address=20 Manager. n=20=20Adds=20a=20menu=20item=20for=20saving=20a=20sender=92s=20e-mail=20ad= dress. 6.=20=20=20=20=20Social=20Networking n=20=20Moves=20MSN=20Messenger=20to=20this=20menu,=20and=20adds=20Auto=20Si= gn-In=20 capability. n=20=20Adds=20new=20Google=20Talk=20client:=20=20use=20it=20for=20text or=20voice=20chat=20and=20share=20files=20with=20friends.=20=20(not available=20for=20Braille=20Sense=20Classic.) n=20=20Adds=20new=20Twitter=20client:=20share=20short=20messages or=20links=20with=20others,=20or=20follow=20others=20who=20do,=20via=20time= line. 7.=20=20=20=20=20Utilities n=20=20Adds=20new=20Menu=20Management=20program:=20It=20can=20be used=20for=20hiding=20or=20showing=20programs=20in=20=93Extras=94=20and=20= =93Social=20 Networking=94=20menus. n=20=20Adds=20support=20for=20WPA2=20Network=20mode=20and=20AES encryption=20for=20wireless=20connection=20via=20wifi=20router. 8.=20=20=20=20=20Extras n=20=20Add=20Sense=20Dice=20game=20and=20Sense=20Brain=20game=20to BSP,=20BSPQ,=20VS,=20and=20Classic=20models. Changes=20features 1.=20=20=20=20=20Word=20Processor n=20=20Changes=20the=20method=20for=20inserting=20Date=20and/or Time:=20they=20can=20now=20be=20inserted=20separately. n=20=20Changes=20Braille=20display=20auto=20scroll=20speed increments=20from=201=20second=20to=20half=20second=20and expands=20the=20available=20levels=20from=2020=20to=2035. 2.=20=20=20=20=20Address=20Manager n=20=20Changes=20the=20hot=20key=20for=20=93Import=20from=20CSV=94=20from=20= =93r=94=20to=20=93c=94. 3.=20=20=20=20=20Web=20Browser n=20=20Changes=20hotkeys=20for=20=93save=20as=94=20from=20Alt-s=20to Ctrl-s,=20and=20=93Set=20current=20home=20page=94=20from=20Ctrl-s to=20Alt-s=20in=20Braille=20Sense=20PLUS=20Qwerty=20and=20Voice=20Sense=20Q= werty. n=20=20Changes=20default=20Homepage=20from=20brailleSense.com=20to=20 hims-inc.com. n=20=20Changes=20Braille=20display=20auto=20scroll=20speed increments=20from=20one=20second=20to=20half=20second=20and expands=20available=20levels=20from=2010=20to=2020. 4.=20=20=20=20=20Utilities n=20=20Changes=20the=20hotkey=20in=20calculator=20for=20cosine function=20from=20Enter-c=20to=20Enter-I. n=20=20Changes=20the=20hotkey=20for=20copy=20to=20Clipboard=20from=20Enter-= I=20to=20 Enter=3DC n=20=20Changes=20=93Variable=20Calculators=94=20menu=20item=20to=20=93Memor= y=20 Functions=94. 5.=20=20=20=20=20Extras n=20=20Sense=20Bible=20is=20now=20provided=20as=20an=20optional=20external= =20program. 6.=20=20=20=20=20Programs=20Menu n=20=20Bible=20program=20is=20installed=20here=20when=20loaded. Major=20bug=20fixes 1.=20=20=20=20=20File=20Manager n=20=20Fixed=20the=20problem=20of=20allowing=20a=20protected=20file=20to=20= be=20deleted. 2.=20=20=20=20=20Schedule=20Manager n=20=20Fixed=20the=20problem=20of=20the=20time=20being=20incorrect due=20to=20time=20zone=20change=20after=20restoring=20data. 3.=20=20=20=20=20Word=20Processor n=20=20Fixed=20several=20problems=20with=20Braille=20translation. 4.=20=20=20=20=20Web=20Browser n=20=20Enhance=20the=20loading=20of=20several=20web=20sites. n=20=20Fixed=20lock=20ups=20with=20several=20web=20pages. n=20=20Fixed=20the=20problem=20of=20not=20displaying=20visited=20links=20co= rrectly. n=20=20Fixed=20the=20problem=20with=20secure=20webpages=20(https) 5.=20=20=20=20=20E-mail n=20=20Fixed=20combining=20multiple=20subject=20lines=20when=20replying=20t= o=20 e-mail. n=20=20Fixed=20the=20crash=20when=20deleting=20e-mail=20while=20in=20CC=20f= ield. n=20=20Fixed=20the=20problem=20of=20not=20sending=20e-mail=20using specific=20SMTP=20such=20as=20clara.co.uk,=20smtp.live.com=20with=20port=20= 25. n=20=20Fixed=20the=20crash=20when=20opening=20e-mail=20with=20certain=20 attachment(s). n=20=20Fixed=20the=20problem=20not=20to=20forward=20message=20for=20multipl= e=20message. n=20=20Fixed=20the=20problem=20of=20not=20downloading=20attached files=20from=20providers=20such=20as=20Verizon n=20=20Fixed=20the=20problem=20of=20not=20downloading=20e-mail=20from=20ATT= =20count. n=20=20Fixed=20the=20problem=20of=20not=20sending=20reply=20message via=20the=20account=20from=20which=20the=20message=20was=20received. 6.=20=20=20=20=20Sense=20Navigation. n=20=20Fixed=20the=20lock=20up=20when=20moving=20through=20searched=20POIs.= 7.=20=20=20=20=20Utilities n=20=20Fixed=20several=20crashes=20in=20calculator. n=20=20Fixed=20information=20when=20requesting=20network=20status. n=20=20Fixed=20the=20problem=20of=20the=20process=20timing=20out too=20quickly=20when=20pairing=20with=20iPhone. 8.=20=20=20=20=20On-board=20Help n=20=20Made=20Help=20interface=20consistent=20across=20all=20programs. Enjoy=20the=20new=20firmware, Jenny=20Axler Technical=20Support=20Specialist HIMS,=20Inc. 4616=20West=20Howard=20Lane,=20Suite=20960 Austin,=20Texas=2078728 Phone:=20512-837-2000 email:=20Jenny at hims-inc.com Web:=20www.hims-inc.com _______________________________________________ blindtlk=20mailing=20list blindtlk at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20blindtlk: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dotkid. nusbaum%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Thu May 19 01:10:15 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 21:10:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate Message-ID: Hi all: Just wondering, as far as note takers, which one in your opinion is the best or seems to be the industry leader? If so why? Which one seems to have the most feature-rich interphase? Thanks, Jorge From z.dreicer at emissives.com Thu May 19 01:19:10 2011 From: z.dreicer at emissives.com (dreicer, zachary) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 19:19:10 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate Message-ID: In my opinion (though i'm not sure) i think HIMS just now made a big advancement. As a side note for you (jorge) you spelled interface wrong again. The way it should be is i n t e r f a c e. The definition for the way you spelled it reads as follows, courtesy of my biology teacher's notes. The majority of a cells life is the growth period call Interphase., where cells grow in size and carry on metabolism. Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez References: Message-ID: JOrge, Right now, I'd say the Apex is the industry leader-with the Braille Sense nipping at its heels. I like the interface on the PAC mate, but I think freedom scientific shot themselves in the foot trying to make it too open and...umm, what's the word...anti-proprietary? I don't know enough about the Braille Sense interface, but I'd say the Apex has more features than the Pac Mate, but I like the Pac Mate interface better because I used it for 5 years. Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/18/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > Hi all: > Just wondering, > as far as note takers, > which one in your opinion is the best or seems to be the industry leader? > If so why? > Which one seems to have the most feature-rich interphase? > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Thu May 19 01:28:31 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 21:28:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kirt: I'm not sure but from what I saw in convention the Sense runs on some form of Windows like system. On May 18, 2011, at 9:19 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > JOrge, > Right now, I'd say the Apex is the industry leader-with the Braille > Sense nipping at its heels. I like the interface on the PAC mate, but > I think freedom scientific shot themselves in the foot trying to make > it too open and...umm, what's the word...anti-proprietary? I don't > know enough about the Braille Sense interface, but I'd say the Apex > has more features than the Pac Mate, but I like the Pac Mate interface > better because I used it for 5 years. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/18/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> Hi all: >> Just wondering, >> as far as note takers, >> which one in your opinion is the best or seems to be the industry leader? >> If so why? >> Which one seems to have the most feature-rich interphase? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu May 19 03:09:37 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 23:09:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Who makes the Braille sense? Gw micro? I'm not sure if I saw it. The thing I saw was the size of the BrailleNote with more thumb keys. It had a large braille display. It was named the braille something, probably the braille sense. I'm curious to know what the sense can do that BrailleNote cannot. Does sense cost the same? >From what I've seen, PacMate used to be ahead; its been around longer I think. But now the Braille Note is ahead. Everyone I talk to wants or has an Apex. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 9:10 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate Hi all: Just wondering, as far as note takers, which one in your opinion is the best or seems to be the industry leader? If so why? Which one seems to have the most feature-rich interphase? Thanks, Jorge _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Thu May 19 03:26:04 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 21:26:04 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ashley, There are still some dedicated PAC mate users out there-I'll admit it took a lot to make me jump ship and join the Apex band wagon. And it used to be GW micro, but Hims bought it from them. From what I understand, it has all the features of an apex (although when I saw it it seemed a bit clunky for my tastes-personal preference), with more of a windows interface and feel. Correct me if I'm wrong, braille sense people. Best, Kirt On 5/18/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Who makes the Braille sense? Gw micro? > I'm not sure if I saw it. The thing I saw was the size of the BrailleNote > with more thumb keys. It had a large braille display. > It was named the braille something, probably the braille sense. > I'm curious to know what the sense can do that BrailleNote cannot. Does > sense cost the same? > > >From what I've seen, PacMate used to be ahead; its been around longer I > think. But now the Braille Note is ahead. > Everyone I talk to wants or has an Apex. > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jorge Paez > Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 9:10 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate > > Hi all: > Just wondering, > as far as note takers, > which one in your opinion is the best or seems to be the industry leader? > If so why? > Which one seems to have the most feature-rich interphase? > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From k7uij at panix.com Thu May 19 03:36:13 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 20:36:13 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00db01cc15d5$e7e9d360$b7bd7a20$@panix.com> Good summary. I think the BS Plus has a quieter keyboard than the Apex. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 8:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate Ashley, There are still some dedicated PAC mate users out there-I'll admit it took a lot to make me jump ship and join the Apex band wagon. And it used to be GW micro, but Hims bought it from them. From what I understand, it has all the features of an apex (although when I saw it it seemed a bit clunky for my tastes-personal preference), with more of a windows interface and feel. Correct me if I'm wrong, braille sense people. Best, Kirt On 5/18/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Who makes the Braille sense? Gw micro? > I'm not sure if I saw it. The thing I saw was the size of the BrailleNote > with more thumb keys. It had a large braille display. > It was named the braille something, probably the braille sense. > I'm curious to know what the sense can do that BrailleNote cannot. Does > sense cost the same? > > >From what I've seen, PacMate used to be ahead; its been around longer I > think. But now the Braille Note is ahead. > Everyone I talk to wants or has an Apex. > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jorge Paez > Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 9:10 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate > > Hi all: > Just wondering, > as far as note takers, > which one in your opinion is the best or seems to be the industry leader? > If so why? > Which one seems to have the most feature-rich interphase? > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Thu May 19 03:52:22 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 20:52:22 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate References: Message-ID: <55694D4DC61F4122B66DD56B4D6CFEEC@stanford.edu> Hahaha ----- Original Message ----- From: "dreicer, zachary" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate > In my opinion (though i'm not sure) i think HIMS just now made a big > advancement. As a side note for you (jorge) you spelled interface wrong > again. The way it should be is i n t e r f a c e. The definition for the > way you spelled it reads as follows, courtesy of my biology teacher's > notes. > The majority of a cells life is the growth period call Interphase., where > cells grow in size and carry on metabolism. > > Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Wed, 18 May 2011 21:10:15 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate > > Hi all: > Just wondering, > as far as note takers, > which one in your opinion is the best or seems to be the industry leader? > If so why? > Which one seems to have the most feature-rich interphase? > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer > %40emissives.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From gpaikens at gmail.com Thu May 19 05:29:19 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 00:29:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?Launches_EyeNote=E2=84=A2App_to_Help_the_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?Blind_and_Visually_Impaired_Denominate_US_Currency?= In-Reply-To: <4dd42774.8a4ee50a.604c.4072@mx.google.com> References: <4dd42774.8a4ee50a.604c.4072@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I mean privacy in the sense that I don't care if Voiceover announces my text messages or phone numbers in a crowded place, but I may not be comfortable with the app announcing to the people around me that I am holding a $50 or $100 bill in my hand. That's just not a smart idea. -Greg On May 18, 2011, at 3:09 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: > I can imagine. Haha, government was wrong again in thinking they can do everything better than the private sector. * Smile! And really? You have to snap a picture for it to recognize the bill? * Frown! That's what I * hated * about the KNFB Reader Classic when NFBMD asked me to try out one of their first prototypes, which happened to be the model chosen. Come on, people, the technology's already there! Just use it! About privacy, um.. headphones? If you're so worried about privacy, then you'd have the same problem with VoiceOver. > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Freeman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 14:54:33 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l]FW: Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency > > But LookTel is much easier to use and is far less critical in bill placement than is EyeNote. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 17, 2011, at 13:09, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > > Sean, > There is one that just reads out currency-it's called LookTell Money > Reader. It costs a couple dollars, and it doesnt have the vibrating > feature that some people like. I say good for them-diversity's never > a bad thing. > Best, > Kirt > > On 5/17/11, Sean Whalen wrote: > Aren’t there already iPhone apps that do this? > > > > From: White House Disability Group > Date: May 17, 2011 3:45:19 PM EDT > > To: cmacdonald at linchpinstrategies.com > > Subject: Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App to Help the > Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency > > Reply-To: White House Disability Group > > >  > > Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App > > to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency > > > > The Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) has developed a free downloadable > application (app) to assist the blind and visually impaired denominate US > currency. The app is called EyeNote™. EyeNote™ is a mobile device app > designed for Apple iPhone (3G, 3Gs, 4), and the 4th Generation iPod Touch > and iPad2 platforms, and is available through the Apple iTunes App Store. > > > > EyeNote™ uses image recognition technology to determine a note’s > denomination. The mobile device’s camera requires 51 percent of a note’s > scanned image, front or back, to process. In a matter of seconds, EyeNote™ > can provide an audible or vibrating response, and can denominate all Federal > Reserve notes issued since 1996. Free downloads will be available whenever > new US currency designs are introduced. Research indicates that more than > 100,000 blind and visually impaired individuals could currently own an Apple > iPhone. > > > > The EyeNoteTM app is one of a variety of measures the government is working > to deploy to assist the visually impaired community to denominate currency, > as proposed in a recent Federal Register notice. These measures include > implementing a Currency Reader Program whereby a United States resident, who > is blind or visually impaired, may obtain a coupon that can be applied > toward the purchase of a device to denominate United States currency; > continuing to add large high contrast numerals and different background > colors to redesigned currency; and, raised tactile features may be added to > redesigned currency, which would provide users with a means of identifying > each denomination via touch. > > > > More information is available at http://www.eyenote.gov/ or through email at > eyenote at bep.gov. > > > > More information can be found also at: > http://www.bep.treas.gov/uscurrency/meaningfulaccess > > ----- > > Unsubscribe > ?preferences=true > > The White House · 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW · Washington DC 20500 · > 202-456-1111 > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From marsha.drenth at gmail.com Thu May 19 14:29:54 2011 From: marsha.drenth at gmail.com (Marsha Drenth) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 10:29:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate In-Reply-To: <00db01cc15d5$e7e9d360$b7bd7a20$@panix.com> References: <00db01cc15d5$e7e9d360$b7bd7a20$@panix.com> Message-ID: <42DB705C155841A2AEE12EA488BDD5EA@Cptr233> I have used both the BrailleSense and the APEX now. Yes the BS has a quiet keyboard, but the Braille display is way way more responsive on the APEX. Yes the BS has the scroll keys on top, but the thumb keys on the APEX are the same. Seems that the APEX is faster in its response to pulling up files, saving, and other functions to the sort. But that is all just my observation. Marsha -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Freeman Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 11:36 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate Good summary. I think the BS Plus has a quieter keyboard than the Apex. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 8:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate Ashley, There are still some dedicated PAC mate users out there-I'll admit it took a lot to make me jump ship and join the Apex band wagon. And it used to be GW micro, but Hims bought it from them. From what I understand, it has all the features of an apex (although when I saw it it seemed a bit clunky for my tastes-personal preference), with more of a windows interface and feel. Correct me if I'm wrong, braille sense people. Best, Kirt On 5/18/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Who makes the Braille sense? Gw micro? > I'm not sure if I saw it. The thing I saw was the size of the BrailleNote > with more thumb keys. It had a large braille display. > It was named the braille something, probably the braille sense. > I'm curious to know what the sense can do that BrailleNote cannot. Does > sense cost the same? > > >From what I've seen, PacMate used to be ahead; its been around longer I > think. But now the Braille Note is ahead. > Everyone I talk to wants or has an Apex. > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jorge Paez > Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 9:10 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate > > Hi all: > Just wondering, > as far as note takers, > which one in your opinion is the best or seems to be the industry leader? > If so why? > Which one seems to have the most feature-rich interphase? > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai l.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6133 (20110518) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6135 (20110519) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6135 (20110519) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu May 19 16:42:23 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 12:42:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] =?utf-8?b?TGF1bmNoZXMgRXllTm90ZcOi4oCewqJBcHAgdG8gSGVs?= =?utf-8?q?p_the_Blind_and_Visually_Impaired_Denominate_US_Currency?= In-Reply-To: References: <4dd42774.8a4ee50a.604c.4072@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <2610C99C0FA84E78AE948491D0CAF248@OwnerPC> Greg, I agree. I don't want anyone knowing I'm holding a $50 bill or whatever. -----Original Message----- From: Greg Aikens Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 1:29 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Launches EyeNoteâ„¢App to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency I mean privacy in the sense that I don't care if Voiceover announces my text messages or phone numbers in a crowded place, but I may not be comfortable with the app announcing to the people around me that I am holding a $50 or $100 bill in my hand. That's just not a smart idea. -Greg On May 18, 2011, at 3:09 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: > I can imagine. Haha, government was wrong again in thinking they can do > everything better than the private sector. * Smile! And really? You have > to snap a picture for it to recognize the bill? * Frown! That's what I * > hated * about the KNFB Reader Classic when NFBMD asked me to try out one > of their first prototypes, which happened to be the model chosen. Come > on, people, the technology's already there! Just use it! About privacy, > um.. headphones? If you're so worried about privacy, then you'd have the > same problem with VoiceOver. > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Freeman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 14:54:33 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l]FW: Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches > EyeNote™App to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency > > But LookTel is much easier to use and is far less critical in bill > placement than is EyeNote. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 17, 2011, at 13:09, Kirt Manwaring > wrote: > > Sean, > There is one that just reads out currency-it's called LookTell Money > Reader. It costs a couple dollars, and it doesnt have the vibrating > feature that some people like. I say good for them-diversity's never > a bad thing. > Best, > Kirt > > On 5/17/11, Sean Whalen wrote: > Aren’t there already iPhone apps that do this? > > > > From: White House Disability Group > Date: May 17, 2011 3:45:19 PM EDT > > To: cmacdonald at linchpinstrategies.com > > Subject: Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App to Help the > Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency > > Reply-To: White House Disability Group > > >  > > Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App > > to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency > > > > The Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) has developed a free > downloadable > application (app) to assist the blind and visually impaired denominate US > currency. The app is called EyeNote™. EyeNote™ is a mobile device app > designed for Apple iPhone (3G, 3Gs, 4), and the 4th Generation iPod Touch > and iPad2 platforms, and is available through the Apple iTunes App Store. > > > > EyeNote™ uses image recognition technology to determine a note’s > denomination. The mobile device’s camera requires 51 percent of a note’s > scanned image, front or back, to process. In a matter of seconds, > EyeNote™ > can provide an audible or vibrating response, and can denominate all > Federal > Reserve notes issued since 1996. Free downloads will be available > whenever > new US currency designs are introduced. Research indicates that more than > 100,000 blind and visually impaired individuals could currently own an > Apple > iPhone. > > > > The EyeNoteTM app is one of a variety of measures the government is > working > to deploy to assist the visually impaired community to denominate > currency, > as proposed in a recent Federal Register notice. These measures include > implementing a Currency Reader Program whereby a United States resident, > who > is blind or visually impaired, may obtain a coupon that can be applied > toward the purchase of a device to denominate United States currency; > continuing to add large high contrast numerals and different background > colors to redesigned currency; and, raised tactile features may be added > to > redesigned currency, which would provide users with a means of identifying > each denomination via touch. > > > > More information is available at http://www.eyenote.gov/ or through email > at > eyenote at bep.gov. > > > > More information can be found also at: > http://www.bep.treas.gov/uscurrency/meaningfulaccess > > ----- > > Unsubscribe > ?preferences=true > > The White House · 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW · Washington DC 20500 · > 202-456-1111 > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From k7uij at panix.com Thu May 19 17:13:14 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 10:13:14 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] =?utf-8?b?TGF1bmNoZXMgRXllTm90ZcOi4oCewqJBcHAgdG8gSGVs?= =?utf-8?q?p_the_Blind_and_Visually_Impaired_Denominate_US_Currency?= In-Reply-To: <2610C99C0FA84E78AE948491D0CAF248@OwnerPC> References: <4dd42774.8a4ee50a.604c.4072@mx.google.com> <2610C99C0FA84E78AE948491D0CAF248@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Why not as they can observe it anyway. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 19, 2011, at 9:42, wrote: > Greg, I agree. I don't want anyone knowing I'm holding a $50 bill or whatever. > > > -----Original Message----- From: Greg Aikens > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 1:29 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Launches EyeNoteâ„¢App to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency > > I mean privacy in the sense that I don't care if Voiceover announces my text messages or phone numbers in a crowded place, but I may not be comfortable with the app announcing to the people around me that I am holding a $50 or $100 bill in my hand. That's just not a smart idea. > > -Greg > > > On May 18, 2011, at 3:09 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: > >> I can imagine. Haha, government was wrong again in thinking they can do everything better than the private sector. * Smile! And really? You have to snap a picture for it to recognize the bill? * Frown! That's what I * hated * about the KNFB Reader Classic when NFBMD asked me to try out one of their first prototypes, which happened to be the model chosen. Come on, people, the technology's already there! Just use it! About privacy, um.. headphones? If you're so worried about privacy, then you'd have the same problem with VoiceOver. >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Mike Freeman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 14:54:33 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l]FW: Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency >> >> But LookTel is much easier to use and is far less critical in bill placement than is EyeNote. >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 17, 2011, at 13:09, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >> Sean, >> There is one that just reads out currency-it's called LookTell Money >> Reader. It costs a couple dollars, and it doesnt have the vibrating >> feature that some people like. I say good for them-diversity's never >> a bad thing. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/17/11, Sean Whalen wrote: >> Aren’t there already iPhone apps that do this? >> >> >> >> From: White House Disability Group > >> Date: May 17, 2011 3:45:19 PM EDT >> >> To: cmacdonald at linchpinstrategies.com >> >> Subject: Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App to Help the >> Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency >> >> Reply-To: White House Disability Group > >> >> >>  >> >> Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App >> >> to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency >> >> >> >> The Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) has developed a free downloadable >> application (app) to assist the blind and visually impaired denominate US >> currency. The app is called EyeNote™. EyeNote™ is a mobile device app >> designed for Apple iPhone (3G, 3Gs, 4), and the 4th Generation iPod Touch >> and iPad2 platforms, and is available through the Apple iTunes App Store. >> >> >> >> EyeNote™ uses image recognition technology to determine a note’s >> denomination. The mobile device’s camera requires 51 percent of a note’s >> scanned image, front or back, to process. In a matter of seconds, EyeNote™ >> can provide an audible or vibrating response, and can denominate all Federal >> Reserve notes issued since 1996. Free downloads will be available whenever >> new US currency designs are introduced. Research indicates that more than >> 100,000 blind and visually impaired individuals could currently own an Apple >> iPhone. >> >> >> >> The EyeNoteTM app is one of a variety of measures the government is working >> to deploy to assist the visually impaired community to denominate currency, >> as proposed in a recent Federal Register notice. These measures include >> implementing a Currency Reader Program whereby a United States resident, who >> is blind or visually impaired, may obtain a coupon that can be applied >> toward the purchase of a device to denominate United States currency; >> continuing to add large high contrast numerals and different background >> colors to redesigned currency; and, raised tactile features may be added to >> redesigned currency, which would provide users with a means of identifying >> each denomination via touch. >> >> >> >> More information is available at http://www.eyenote.gov/ or through email at >> eyenote at bep.gov. >> >> >> >> More information can be found also at: >> http://www.bep.treas.gov/uscurrency/meaningfulaccess >> > >> ----- >> >> Unsubscribe >> > ?preferences=true >> >> The White House · 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW · Washington DC 20500 · >> 202-456-1111 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >> ydude%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From k7uij at panix.com Thu May 19 17:41:51 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 10:41:51 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Object-oriented Programming Classes Questions References: <624DF19A4EEFD647B87A8574625B3A3601053FF04AE3@spnvm1183.bud.bpa.gov> Message-ID: <0CFF9229-A542-4E05-A3CE-DC114E81425A@panix.com> Begin forwarded message: > From: "Freeman,Mike - TOSD-DITT-2" > Date: May 19, 2011 10:30:09 PDT > Subject: Object-oriented Programming Classes Questions > > Hello. > > Although I have had some experience with languages implementing object-oriented programming, I've never taken classes on the subject. My question is this: what platforms are beginning object-oriented programming classes generally run on and what accessibility tools are needed for a totally-blind student? Is the best option to use a human reader? > > We use visual Studio 2008 around my work environment. Are there training courses on how to use it with JAWS, say, in C# programming? Are there e-texts on the subject approached from a screen-reader perspective? > > WE use Ruby around my work environment also. Any experiences with this language and platforms on which its interpreter runs from an accessibility perspective? > > And what's the situation viz. Java programming these days insofar as blind access is concerned? > > T I A! > > Mike > > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Thu May 19 17:59:53 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 11:59:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] =?windows-1252?q?Launches_EyeNote=E2=84=A2App_to_Help_th?= =?windows-1252?q?e_Blind_and_Visually_Impaired_Denominate_US_Curre?= =?windows-1252?q?ncy?= In-Reply-To: References: <4dd42774.8a4ee50a.604c.4072@mx.google.com> <2610C99C0FA84E78AE948491D0CAF248@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Mike, Good point for sure. Although I think there's a difference between someone standing next to you in a line seeing you have a fifty dollar bill in your hand and a decently loud voice, especially in a pretty quiet room, announcing for everyone to hear, "fifty dollars!" But I'd get around that by wearing an earphone. Even so, I can still see why some people would just want the dang thing to vibrate. Sincerely, Kirt On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > Why not as they can observe it anyway. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 19, 2011, at 9:42, wrote: > >> Greg, I agree. I don't want anyone knowing I'm holding a $50 bill or >> whatever. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Greg Aikens >> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 1:29 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Launches EyeNoteâ„¢App to Help the Blind and >> Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency >> >> I mean privacy in the sense that I don't care if Voiceover announces my >> text messages or phone numbers in a crowded place, but I may not be >> comfortable with the app announcing to the people around me that I am >> holding a $50 or $100 bill in my hand. That's just not a smart idea. >> >> -Greg >> >> >> On May 18, 2011, at 3:09 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >> >>> I can imagine. Haha, government was wrong again in thinking they can do >>> everything better than the private sector. * Smile! And really? You have >>> to snap a picture for it to recognize the bill? * Frown! That's what I * >>> hated * about the KNFB Reader Classic when NFBMD asked me to try out one >>> of their first prototypes, which happened to be the model chosen. Come >>> on, people, the technology's already there! Just use it! About privacy, >>> um.. headphones? If you're so worried about privacy, then you'd have the >>> same problem with VoiceOver. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>> >>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Mike Freeman >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 14:54:33 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l]FW: Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches >>> EyeNote™App to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US >>> Currency >>> >>> But LookTel is much easier to use and is far less critical in bill >>> placement than is EyeNote. >>> >>> Mike Freeman >>> sent from my iPhone >>> >>> >>> On May 17, 2011, at 13:09, Kirt Manwaring >>> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> There is one that just reads out currency-it's called LookTell Money >>> Reader. It costs a couple dollars, and it doesnt have the vibrating >>> feature that some people like. I say good for them-diversity's never >>> a bad thing. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/17/11, Sean Whalen wrote: >>> Aren’t there already iPhone apps that do this? >>> >>> >>> >>> From: White House Disability Group >> >>> Date: May 17, 2011 3:45:19 PM EDT >>> >>> To: cmacdonald at linchpinstrategies.com >>> >>> Subject: Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App to Help >>> the >>> Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency >>> >>> Reply-To: White House Disability Group >>> >> >>> >>> >>>  >>> >>> Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App >>> >>> to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency >>> >>> >>> >>> The Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) has developed a free >>> downloadable >>> application (app) to assist the blind and visually impaired denominate US >>> currency. The app is called EyeNote™. EyeNote™ is a mobile device app >>> designed for Apple iPhone (3G, 3Gs, 4), and the 4th Generation iPod Touch >>> and iPad2 platforms, and is available through the Apple iTunes App Store. >>> >>> >>> >>> EyeNote™ uses image recognition technology to determine a note’s >>> denomination. The mobile device’s camera requires 51 percent of a note’s >>> scanned image, front or back, to process. In a matter of seconds, >>> EyeNote™ >>> can provide an audible or vibrating response, and can denominate all >>> Federal >>> Reserve notes issued since 1996. Free downloads will be available >>> whenever >>> new US currency designs are introduced. Research indicates that more >>> than >>> 100,000 blind and visually impaired individuals could currently own an >>> Apple >>> iPhone. >>> >>> >>> >>> The EyeNoteTM app is one of a variety of measures the government is >>> working >>> to deploy to assist the visually impaired community to denominate >>> currency, >>> as proposed in a recent Federal Register notice. These measures include >>> implementing a Currency Reader Program whereby a United States resident, >>> who >>> is blind or visually impaired, may obtain a coupon that can be applied >>> toward the purchase of a device to denominate United States currency; >>> continuing to add large high contrast numerals and different background >>> colors to redesigned currency; and, raised tactile features may be added >>> to >>> redesigned currency, which would provide users with a means of >>> identifying >>> each denomination via touch. >>> >>> >>> >>> More information is available at http://www.eyenote.gov/ or through email >>> at >>> eyenote at bep.gov. >>> >>> >>> >>> More information can be found also at: >>> http://www.bep.treas.gov/uscurrency/meaningfulaccess >>> >> >>> ----- >>> >>> Unsubscribe >>> >> ?preferences=true >>> >>> The White House · 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW · Washington DC 20500 · >>> 202-456-1111 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>> ydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>> anix.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From trillian551 at gmail.com Thu May 19 19:33:20 2011 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 15:33:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] =?windows-1252?q?Launches_EyeNote=E2=84=A2App_to_Help_th?= =?windows-1252?q?e_Blind_and_Visually_Impaired_Denominate_US_Curre?= =?windows-1252?q?ncy?= In-Reply-To: References: <4dd42774.8a4ee50a.604c.4072@mx.google.com> <2610C99C0FA84E78AE948491D0CAF248@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi All. While i have not tried this particular ap, the Money Reader ap on the Iphone is actually really discrete. The voice is very soft spoken, and of course you can wear earbuds, or have a bluetooth, etc. If you think about it, it's the same as using an atm, you have to bring your earbuds don't you? And isn't it more convenient to be able to quickly and independently identify your own money so you can fold it or whatever, than having to wait for someone you trust to come around and tell you what it is? What if you are in a restaurant and want to know how much to leave for tip without having to wait for the waiter if you aren't quite sure of what you have in your wallet? there are a lot of practical uses for having these aps. and with phones talking more and more, and us carrying ipods, mp3 players or whatever around, chances are you have a pair of earbuds on you anyway. Just my thoughts. Mary On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Mike, > Good point for sure. Although I think there's a difference between > someone standing next to you in a line seeing you have a fifty dollar > bill in your hand and a decently loud voice, especially in a pretty > quiet room, announcing for everyone to hear, "fifty dollars!" But I'd > get around that by wearing an earphone. Even so, I can still see why > some people would just want the dang thing to vibrate. > Sincerely, > Kirt > > On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> Why not as they can observe it anyway. >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 19, 2011, at 9:42, wrote: >> >>> Greg, I agree. I don't want anyone knowing I'm holding a $50 bill or >>> whatever. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Greg Aikens >>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 1:29 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Launches EyeNoteâ„¢App to Help the Blind and >>> Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency >>> >>> I mean privacy in the sense that I don't care if Voiceover announces my >>> text messages or phone numbers in a crowded place, but I may not be >>> comfortable with the app announcing to the people around me that I am >>> holding a $50 or $100 bill in my hand. That's just not a smart idea. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> >>> On May 18, 2011, at 3:09 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >>> >>>> I can imagine. Haha, government was wrong again in thinking they can do >>>> everything better than the private sector. * Smile! And really? You >>>> have >>>> to snap a picture for it to recognize the bill? * Frown! That's what I * >>>> hated * about the KNFB Reader Classic when NFBMD asked me to try out one >>>> of their first prototypes, which happened to be the model chosen. Come >>>> on, people, the technology's already there! Just use it! About privacy, >>>> um.. headphones? If you're so worried about privacy, then you'd have >>>> the >>>> same problem with VoiceOver. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>>> >>>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Mike Freeman >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>> Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 14:54:33 -0700 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l]FW: Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches >>>> EyeNote™App to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US >>>> Currency >>>> >>>> But LookTel is much easier to use and is far less critical in bill >>>> placement than is EyeNote. >>>> >>>> Mike Freeman >>>> sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 17, 2011, at 13:09, Kirt Manwaring >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> There is one that just reads out currency-it's called LookTell Money >>>> Reader. It costs a couple dollars, and it doesnt have the vibrating >>>> feature that some people like. I say good for them-diversity's never >>>> a bad thing. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/17/11, Sean Whalen wrote: >>>> Aren’t there already iPhone apps that do this? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: White House Disability Group >>> >>>> Date: May 17, 2011 3:45:19 PM EDT >>>> >>>> To: cmacdonald at linchpinstrategies.com >>>> >>>> Subject: Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App to Help >>>> the >>>> Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency >>>> >>>> Reply-To: White House Disability Group >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>  >>>> >>>> Bureau of Engraving and Printing Launches EyeNote™App >>>> >>>> to Help the Blind and Visually Impaired Denominate US Currency >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) has developed a free >>>> downloadable >>>> application (app) to assist the blind and visually impaired denominate >>>> US >>>> currency. The app is called EyeNote™. EyeNote™ is a mobile device app >>>> designed for Apple iPhone (3G, 3Gs, 4), and the 4th Generation iPod >>>> Touch >>>> and iPad2 platforms, and is available through the Apple iTunes App >>>> Store. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> EyeNote™ uses image recognition technology to determine a note’s >>>> denomination. The mobile device’s camera requires 51 percent of a >>>> note’s >>>> scanned image, front or back, to process. In a matter of seconds, >>>> EyeNote™ >>>> can provide an audible or vibrating response, and can denominate all >>>> Federal >>>> Reserve notes issued since 1996. Free downloads will be available >>>> whenever >>>> new US currency designs are introduced. Research indicates that more >>>> than >>>> 100,000 blind and visually impaired individuals could currently own an >>>> Apple >>>> iPhone. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The EyeNoteTM app is one of a variety of measures the government is >>>> working >>>> to deploy to assist the visually impaired community to denominate >>>> currency, >>>> as proposed in a recent Federal Register notice. These measures include >>>> implementing a Currency Reader Program whereby a United States resident, >>>> who >>>> is blind or visually impaired, may obtain a coupon that can be applied >>>> toward the purchase of a device to denominate United States currency; >>>> continuing to add large high contrast numerals and different background >>>> colors to redesigned currency; and, raised tactile features may be added >>>> to >>>> redesigned currency, which would provide users with a means of >>>> identifying >>>> each denomination via touch. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> More information is available at http://www.eyenote.gov/ or through >>>> email >>>> at >>>> eyenote at bep.gov. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> More information can be found also at: >>>> http://www.bep.treas.gov/uscurrency/meaningfulaccess >>>> >>> >>>> ----- >>>> >>>> Unsubscribe >>>> >>> ?preferences=true >>>> >>>> The White House · 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW · Washington DC 20500 · >>>> 202-456-1111 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>>> ydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>>> anix.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory University 2012 P.O. Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. 30322 Phone: 732-857-7004 "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it." Terry Pratchett From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu May 19 19:57:38 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C2ris=20Nusbaum?=) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 15:57:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?Launches_EyeNote=E2=84=A2App_to_Help_the_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?Blind_and_Visually_Impaired_Denominate_US_Currency?= Message-ID: <4dd57644.274d340a.3e96.2dd5@mx.google.com> Okay=20then,=20you=20can=20take=20headphones=20with=20you.=20=20Heck,=20the= =20iPhone=20 and=20iTouch=20come=20with=20earbuds=20right=20in=20the=20box. =20Chris "A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abilit= ies=20motto) ---=20Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Greg=20Aikens=20=20wrote: =20Sean, =20There=20is=20one=20that=20just=20reads=20out=20currency-it's=20called=20= LookTell=20 Money =20Reader.=20=20It=20costs=20a=20couple=20dollars,=20and=20it=20doesnt=20ha= ve=20the=20 vibrating =20feature=20that=20some=20people=20like.=20=20I=20say=20good=20for=20them-= diversity's=20 never =20a=20bad=20thing. =20Best, =20Kirt =20On=205/17/11,=20Sean=20Whalen=20=20wrote: =20Aren=E2=80=99t=20there=20already=20iPhone=20apps=20that=20do=20this? =20From:=20White=20House=20Disability=20Group=20 It's a lot better than geometry! * Smile! We're doing trig ratios right now, you know, weird tactile graphics. Yeah! My friend told me to not get caught up in the graphics in geometry and focus on the math, but that's unless you have to look at the pictures. I'm having trouble telling the difference between the hypotenuse and the longer leg. But anyway... Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: "dreicer, zachary" So does the Apex, but it's running a * really old version of Windows CE, which is annoying when trying to cync it to a newer PC. By the way, what do you all think about the TTS on all these notetakers? I like Eloquence personally because it's more human-sounding and clearer in my opinion, but a lot of people like the BN's Keynote Gold. What about the others? Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez wrote: Hi all: Just wondering, as far as note takers, which one in your opinion is the best or seems to be the industry leader? If so why? Which one seems to have the most feature-rich interphase? Thanks, Jorge _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert echjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu May 19 19:57:47 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C2ris=20Nusbaum?=) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 15:57:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [nfb-talk] Local Public Transportation in Orlando info. Message-ID: <4dd5764c.274d340a.3e96.2dda@mx.google.com> ---- Original Message ------ From: "David Evans" ... Florida - Cached - Similar 9. www.Golynx.com Golynx com For the use of the door-to-door Para-transit service, you must be elegible in your own Para-transit system , and have them fax or e-mail a copy of your statis to Orlando "Links" at least 3 to 4 day before you come to Orlando and you can use the service here to get from the airport, bus or train stations to the hotel or the attractions in Orlando.. ACCESS LYNX ACCESS LYNX is a shared ride paratransit, door-to-door transportation van service provided by MV Transportation under the supervision of LYNX. The program is for eligible individuals who aren't able to use our regular bus service (also called "fixed route") because of a disability. Currently, the program provides more than 1,900 scheduled passenger trips per day, using a variety of vehicles specially equipped for individuals with various disabilities. Change In Fare Collection Policy Transportation Disadvantaged Service Plan Our Carrier MV Transportation not only provides the drivers and vehicles, but their staff also handles reservation requests, scheduling and dispatch of all trips. They also verify information for the requesting customer and coordinate the rides within our tri-county area of Orange, Osceola and Seminole counties. The company is responsible for providing vehicles that meet the safety requirements of the ACCESS LYNX program as well as drivers that are properly trained to meet the needs of our customers. MV Transportation has provided safe, reliable and professional transportation services for public and government agencies for more than 25 years and is highly recommended by many other transportation authorities for which it provides services to. Hours of Operation Reservations can be made between 8 a.m. and 4 p.m., seven days a week. To check on your trip or to cancel a trip, Customer Service and Transportation Services are available 24 hours a day, seven days a week. If possible, the best time to make trip requests or travel is between 10 a.m. and 2 p.m. To reach the ACCESS LYNX Call Center: Telephone: 407-423-TRIP (8747) Toll-Free Long Distance: 1-800-556-TRIP (8747) TDD: 407-423-0787 Fax: 407-849-6759 or 407-423-3182 Fares ADA eligible customers with both the trip origin and destination within 3/4 mile of a fixed route bus alignment is $4 one-way. Premium service - ADA eligible customers where either the trip origin or destination or both are outside of 3/4 mile of a fixed route bus alignment is $7 one-way. Medicaid Non-Emergency Transportation Program Medicaid Exempt - Medicaid eligible customers traveling to/from a Medicaid compensable service who (1) resides in a skilled nursing facility, (2) is under 21 years of age, or (3) is traveling related to a pregnancy is $0. Medicaid - all other Medicaid eligible customers traveling to/from a Medicaid compensable service is $1. Transportation Disadvantaged (TD) Program TD eligible with a direct trip distance of 0 to 4.99 miles is $2.50 TD eligible with a direct trip distance of 5 to 9.99 miles is $3.50 TD eligible with a direct trip distance of 10 or more miles is $4.50 Visitors Welcome If you are visiting our service area and are eligible for paratransit services in your home town, you may also be eligible for paratransit services for up to 21 days on ACCESS LYNX. Click here and tell us the dates you will be visiting, the exact address where you will be staying, including city and zip code, and a phone number where you can be reached. Please attach your paratransit eligibility documentation as well. home | contact us Those people needing dialysis treatments during their stay can use this service for their transportation needs. Please be aware that some of the dialysis centers can handle this for you, so please ask them when making your arrangments with them. Be aware that there is a shuttle bus that runs along the Famous International Drive and that this will take you to businesses, shopping and attractions along the I-Drive. David Evans, NFBF and GD Jack. MV Transit Consumer Advocate Division 94 Palm Beach County Florida _______________________________________________ nfb-talk mailing list nfb-talk at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfb-talk: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/dotkid. nusbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu May 19 19:57:30 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C2ris=20Nusbaum?=) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 15:57:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] MS Excel and accessibility Message-ID: <4dd5763c.274d340a.3e96.2dd0@mx.google.com> That's ok. I have enough information here to experiment with it and see how it works! Thanks! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez Yes, that will probably work. But doesn't the PC cursor button only appear on newer computers, especially those with Windows 7? Rania, what system are you running? Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" Thought you might be interested in this. Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ---- Original Message ------ From: "gary.legates" From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Thu May 19 19:58:59 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 15:58:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A362EF7-9CE1-4A1F-A105-3E144647D89C@gmail.com> No, its actually cheaper. The 18 cells is $4,500, as a pose to Humanware's $6,500, and I think the 32 cell is around $5 or $6 thousand, so you'd get more cells that way. But it does run on Windows. On May 18, 2011, at 11:09 PM, wrote: > Who makes the Braille sense? Gw micro? > I'm not sure if I saw it. The thing I saw was the size of the BrailleNote with more thumb keys. It had a large braille display. > It was named the braille something, probably the braille sense. > I'm curious to know what the sense can do that BrailleNote cannot. Does sense cost the same? > >> From what I've seen, PacMate used to be ahead; its been around longer I > think. But now the Braille Note is ahead. > Everyone I talk to wants or has an Apex. > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez > Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 9:10 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate > > Hi all: > Just wondering, > as far as note takers, > which one in your opinion is the best or seems to be the industry leader? > If so why? > Which one seems to have the most feature-rich interphase? > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu May 19 20:10:22 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C2ris=20Nusbaum?=) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 16:10:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindtlk] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate Message-ID: <4dd57940.d27edc0a.49f5.2dda@mx.google.com> I=20forwarded=20your=20question=20to=20the=20Blind=20Talk=20list.=20=20Here= 's=20a=20nice=20 response! =20Chris "A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abilit= ies=20motto) ---=20Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote =20----=20Original=20Message=20------ From:=20"David=20Evans"=20;=20 References: <4dd57648.274d340a.3e96.2dd7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <55A053B5-EBA2-4110-8E27-E94DA817F47E@gmail.com> Chris: The hypotanuse is the longest leg. On May 19, 2011, at 3:57 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: > It's a lot better than geometry! * Smile! We're doing trig ratios right now, you know, weird tactile graphics. Yeah! My friend told me to not get caught up in the graphics in geometry and focus on the math, but that's unless you have to look at the pictures. I'm having trouble telling the difference between the hypotenuse and the longer leg. But anyway... > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "dreicer, zachary" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Wed, 18 May 2011 06:42:40 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] logic > > cool! i love probability and stats! > > Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Wed, 18 May 2011 07:46:17 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] logic > > No, > its just a week maybe two. > > On May 17, 2011, at 10:02 PM, dreicer, zachary wrote: > > the entire class is about probability? I wish I had one like > that! Or is it just one of the things you're studying > > Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 21:59:10 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] logic > > No, > probability. > > > On May 17, 2011, at 9:48 PM, dreicer, zachary wrote: > > never heard of it. what math are you in? stats, per chance? > > Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 20:34:25 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] logic > > Hi all: > Can anyone link me to an explenation of the Q/P table for logic? > Its a question that appeared on my math homework but we've never > studied it. > > Please help asap. > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer > %40emissives.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer > %40emissives.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer > %40emissives.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From z.dreicer at emissives.com Thu May 19 20:28:20 2011 From: z.dreicer at emissives.com (dreicer, zachary) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 14:28:20 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] logic Message-ID: i'm=20doing=20trig=20too.=20=20Chris,=20what=20grade=20are=20you=20in Sent=20from=20my=20BRAILLENOTE=20Apex =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20=C2ris=20Nusbaum=20 Hi David Evans, if you are still on this list, could you write to me off-list at z.dreicer at emissives.com had a few questions. Thanks! sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu May 19 20:40:49 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 16:40:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate In-Reply-To: <4dd57641.274d340a.3e96.2dd3@mx.google.com> References: <4dd57641.274d340a.3e96.2dd3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Chris, I also prefer the elloquence. It is clearer. Thankfully with the braille display, I do not have to use speech much; braille is easier to read and comprehend for me. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Âris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 3:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate So does the Apex, but it's running a * really old version of Windows CE, which is annoying when trying to cync it to a newer PC. By the way, what do you all think about the TTS on all these notetakers? I like Eloquence personally because it's more human-sounding and clearer in my opinion, but a lot of people like the BN's Keynote Gold. What about the others? Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez wrote: Hi all: Just wondering, as far as note takers, which one in your opinion is the best or seems to be the industry leader? If so why? Which one seems to have the most feature-rich interphase? Thanks, Jorge _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert echjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Thu May 19 21:11:24 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 17:11:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate In-Reply-To: <4dd57641.274d340a.3e96.2dd3@mx.google.com> References: <4dd57641.274d340a.3e96.2dd3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <0C1F54FB-1397-46C1-A862-D452205E0113@gmail.com> Chris: quick question, does the Braille Sense run on newer Windows OS then SE? Also: have you tried syncing your BN to any Windows7 computer, if so, any trouble? And, as far as TTS, I agree with you, Elequence is so far my favorite. On May 19, 2011, at 3:57 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: > So does the Apex, but it's running a * really old version of Windows CE, which is annoying when trying to cync it to a newer PC. By the way, what do you all think about the TTS on all these notetakers? I like Eloquence personally because it's more human-sounding and clearer in my opinion, but a lot of people like the BN's Keynote Gold. What about the others? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Wed, 18 May 2011 21:28:31 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate > > Hi Kirt: > I'm not sure but from what I saw in convention the Sense runs on some form of Windows like system. > > > On May 18, 2011, at 9:19 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > > JOrge, > Right now, I'd say the Apex is the industry leader-with the Braille > Sense nipping at its heels. I like the interface on the PAC mate, but > I think freedom scientific shot themselves in the foot trying to make > it too open and...umm, what's the word...anti-proprietary? I don't > know enough about the Braille Sense interface, but I'd say the Apex > has more features than the Pac Mate, but I like the Pac Mate interface > better because I used it for 5 years. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/18/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > Hi all: > Just wondering, > as far as note takers, > which one in your opinion is the best or seems to be the industry leader? > If so why? > Which one seems to have the most feature-rich interphase? > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Thu May 19 21:13:19 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 17:13:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] question for david evans In-Reply-To: <4dd57f16.1b0de70a.7af1.ffffda2cSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <4dd57f16.1b0de70a.7af1.ffffda2cSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7F931EE0-5EEE-4423-AA8E-E5A4D2E8136C@gmail.com> Zach: check the NFB TLK list. The email was being forwarded. On May 19, 2011, at 4:34 PM, dreicer, zachary wrote: > Hi David Evans, if you are still on this list, could you write to me off-list at > z.dreicer at emissives.com > had a few questions. Thanks! > > sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From z.dreicer at emissives.com Thu May 19 21:53:12 2011 From: z.dreicer at emissives.com (dreicer, zachary) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 15:53:12 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] question for david evans Message-ID: i will. Thanks amigo Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez References: Message-ID: Hello again NABS (from your Membership Committee): It goes beep, bop, boop, it clicks, it hums, and today, it even talks to you. It's all around us, and it's technology. We use it every day to keep in touch with friends and family, do assignments for school, and all sorts of other things. This month's conference call will focus on devices we can use and the methods by which we can use them for school, home, on the road, and even work. In no particular order, we will have Dale Sczweck (pronounced Shweck) speaking to the recreational side of technology, our own Liz Bottner on the academic side of it all, and Tony Olivero on the professional/work side of things. Here's the info because we know you can't wait. Who: The NABS Membership Committee, of course What: Conference call on technology use at school, work, and everywhere else. When: Sunday May 22 at 7:00 PM ET. Where: (712) 775-7100, followed by the pass code 257963. Why: Because wherever you are, you can use technology to your advantage, and we can get you started in how to do that. We look forward to a great conversation, great insight, and neat strategies from our speakers and you. So why not join us? You can really learn a lot. See you there! Sincerely, Your wonderful NABS Membership Committee -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From th404 at comcast.net Fri May 20 00:07:27 2011 From: th404 at comcast.net (Tina Hansen) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 17:07:27 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Where's the April Conference Call Audio Message-ID: With all the talk about this month's conference call, I notice that the conference call for April has still not been posted to the site. What's up? Thanks. From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Fri May 20 00:09:21 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 17:09:21 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate References: <6A362EF7-9CE1-4A1F-A105-3E144647D89C@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think that you have somethings mixed up. The Apex with no display is around $2000, the Apex with 18 cells is around $400, and the Apex with 32 cells is around $6500. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 12:58 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate > No, > its actually cheaper. > The 18 cells is $4,500, > as a pose to Humanware's $6,500, and I think the 32 cell is around $5 or > $6 thousand, so you'd get more cells that way. > But it does run on Windows. > > On May 18, 2011, at 11:09 PM, wrote: > >> Who makes the Braille sense? Gw micro? >> I'm not sure if I saw it. The thing I saw was the size of the BrailleNote >> with more thumb keys. It had a large braille display. >> It was named the braille something, probably the braille sense. >> I'm curious to know what the sense can do that BrailleNote cannot. Does >> sense cost the same? >> >>> From what I've seen, PacMate used to be ahead; its been around longer I >> think. But now the Braille Note is ahead. >> Everyone I talk to wants or has an Apex. >> Ashley >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez >> Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 9:10 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate >> >> Hi all: >> Just wondering, >> as far as note takers, >> which one in your opinion is the best or seems to be the industry leader? >> If so why? >> Which one seems to have the most feature-rich interphase? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Fri May 20 00:13:52 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 20:13:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate In-Reply-To: References: <6A362EF7-9CE1-4A1F-A105-3E144647D89C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <74E3B289-8885-4D83-9B9C-80EBE4B11E5E@gmail.com> Oh. So they must've lowered the prices on the Apex, I"m quoting the prices on the old m-power units. Jorge On May 19, 2011, at 8:09 PM, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > I think that you have somethings mixed up. The Apex with no display is around $2000, the Apex with 18 cells is around $400, and the Apex with 32 cells is around $6500. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 12:58 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate > > >> No, >> its actually cheaper. >> The 18 cells is $4,500, >> as a pose to Humanware's $6,500, and I think the 32 cell is around $5 or $6 thousand, so you'd get more cells that way. >> But it does run on Windows. >> >> On May 18, 2011, at 11:09 PM, wrote: >> >>> Who makes the Braille sense? Gw micro? >>> I'm not sure if I saw it. The thing I saw was the size of the BrailleNote with more thumb keys. It had a large braille display. >>> It was named the braille something, probably the braille sense. >>> I'm curious to know what the sense can do that BrailleNote cannot. Does sense cost the same? >>> >>>> From what I've seen, PacMate used to be ahead; its been around longer I >>> think. But now the Braille Note is ahead. >>> Everyone I talk to wants or has an Apex. >>> Ashley >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 9:10 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate >>> >>> Hi all: >>> Just wondering, >>> as far as note takers, >>> which one in your opinion is the best or seems to be the industry leader? >>> If so why? >>> Which one seems to have the most feature-rich interphase? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Fri May 20 00:22:40 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:22:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates Message-ID: > >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >CONTACT: >Chris Danielsen >Director of Public Relations >National Federation of the Blind >(410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >(410) 262-1281 (Cell) >cdanielsen at nfb.org > >Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site > Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates > >National Federation of the Blind Expresses Outrage, Demands Swift Action > >Baltimore, Maryland (May 19, 2011): A study that has just been >published online in the journal >Government >Information Quarterly has found that of one-hundred Web sites >operated by federal government agencies, over 90 percent do not >comply with government accessibility guidelines and likely cannot be >used by people who are blind or have other perceptual or motor >disabilities. The study, entitled "Accessibility of U.S. federal >government home pages: Section 508 compliance and site accessibility >statements" and coauthored by Doctoral Student Abiodun Olalere and >Professor Jonathan Lazar of Towson University, found that the home >pages of over 90 percent of the Web sites they evaluated contained >violations of the government's own guidelines for compliance with >Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. That law requires >that government electronic and information technology be accessible >to people with disabilities. > >Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, >said: "Blind Americans are outraged that the government is failing >to comply with its own guidelines to make government information and >services available to citizens with disabilities. Given the clear >legal requirements of Section 508 and the fact that use of the >Internet is critical to education, employment, access to government >benefits and services, and all other aspects of modern life, there >is no excuse for failure to follow and rigorously enforce these >guidelines. We demand that officials in all branches of government >take immediate steps to bring all federal Web sites into compliance >with the law, and we pledge to continue to hold the federal >government accountable if it continues to treat the blind and others >with disabilities as second-class citizens." > >The study evaluated the home pages of one-hundred government Web >sites across all three branches of the federal government, including >executive agencies, independent agencies, government corporations >(e.g. Amtrak), the United States Congress, the United States Supreme >Court, United States federal courts, and "open government" Web sites >like www.usajobs.gov and >www.ready.gov. The authors utilized both >automated-software tools and human-expert inspections on each home >page, and determined that over 90 percent of the home pages were not >in compliance with the Section 508 regulations. > >Most of the accessibility problems were common ones that are easily >resolved, such as unlabeled images, mislabeled forms or tables, >videos without captioning, flash without any textual equivalents, >and lack of keyboard equivalents for mouse-over actions. The authors >noted that this is not a problem unique to one agency. Similar >problems occur on multiple agency Web sites, and the core problem is >the lack of consistent compliance activities and enforcement >throughout the federal government. > >The study makes several recommendations to increase compliance, >including improved resources on complying with the guidelines; >better documentation of best practices; publishing of information >about which agencies are compliant and noncompliant with >accessibility guidelines as part of the open government dashboard; >and better enforcement and monitoring procedures within government >agencies, such as the loss of Web-posting privileges for repeatedly >posting inaccessible content. > > >### > > >About the National Federation of the Blind > >With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind >people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives >through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs >encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading >force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's >blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of >the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center >in the United States for the blind led by the blind. > > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri May 20 00:24:03 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (dsmithnfb at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 17:24:03 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Where's the April Conference Call Audio In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Were there questions that u had on the subject discussed? Sent from my iPhone On May 19, 2011, at 5:07 PM, "Tina Hansen" wrote: > With all the talk about this month's conference call, I notice that the conference call for April has still not been posted to the site. What's up? Thanks. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From th404 at comcast.net Fri May 20 00:39:04 2011 From: th404 at comcast.net (Tina Hansen) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 17:39:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Where's the April Conference Call Audio References: Message-ID: I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, and whether or not we're doing anything to address how to communicate our message in a way that will reach people through new technologies. Thanks. From serena.c.cucco at gmail.com Fri May 20 00:55:11 2011 From: serena.c.cucco at gmail.com (Serena Cucco) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 20:55:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Samson Haven Message-ID: Hey guys, I remember some of you have this phone. I'm elligable for an upgrade in a couple of months and am considering my options. With the Haven, if you're on the phone and get a call waiting, does the Haven announce who's calling on the call waiting call? Thanks, Serena From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri May 20 01:00:09 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (dsmithnfb at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 18:00:09 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think about this question? Sent from my iPhone On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" wrote: > I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, and whether or not we're doing anything to address how to communicate our message in a way that will reach people through new technologies. Thanks. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Fri May 20 01:06:30 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 21:06:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates References: Message-ID: Begin forwarded message: > From: David Andrews > Date: May 19, 2011 8:22:40 PM EDT > To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org > Subject: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates > Reply-To: "Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk Mailing List" > > >> >> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > >> CONTACT: >> Chris Danielsen >> Director of Public Relations >> National Federation of the Blind >> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >> cdanielsen at nfb.org >> >> Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site >> Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >> >> National Federation of the Blind Expresses Outrage, Demands Swift Action >> >> Baltimore, Maryland (May 19, 2011): A study that has just been published online in the journal Government Information Quarterly has found that of one-hundred Web sites operated by federal government agencies, over 90 percent do not comply with government accessibility guidelines and likely cannot be used by people who are blind or have other perceptual or motor disabilities. The study, entitled "Accessibility of U.S. federal government home pages: Section 508 compliance and site accessibility statements" and coauthored by Doctoral Student Abiodun Olalere and Professor Jonathan Lazar of Towson University, found that the home pages of over 90 percent of the Web sites they evaluated contained violations of the government's own guidelines for compliance with Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. That law requires that government electronic and information technology be accessible to people with disabilities. >> >> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "Blind Americans are outraged that the government is failing to comply with its own guidelines to make government information and services available to citizens with disabilities. Given the clear legal requirements of Section 508 and the fact that use of the Internet is critical to education, employment, access to government benefits and services, and all other aspects of modern life, there is no excuse for failure to follow and rigorously enforce these guidelines. We demand that officials in all branches of government take immediate steps to bring all federal Web sites into compliance with the law, and we pledge to continue to hold the federal government accountable if it continues to treat the blind and others with disabilities as second-class citizens." >> >> The study evaluated the home pages of one-hundred government Web sites across all three branches of the federal government, including executive agencies, independent agencies, government corporations (e.g. Amtrak), the United States Congress, the United States Supreme Court, United States federal courts, and "open government" Web sites like www.usajobs.gov and www.ready.gov. The authors utilized both automated-software tools and human-expert inspections on each home page, and determined that over 90 percent of the home pages were not in compliance with the Section 508 regulations. >> >> Most of the accessibility problems were common ones that are easily resolved, such as unlabeled images, mislabeled forms or tables, videos without captioning, flash without any textual equivalents, and lack of keyboard equivalents for mouse-over actions. The authors noted that this is not a problem unique to one agency. Similar problems occur on multiple agency Web sites, and the core problem is the lack of consistent compliance activities and enforcement throughout the federal government. >> >> The study makes several recommendations to increase compliance, including improved resources on complying with the guidelines; better documentation of best practices; publishing of information about which agencies are compliant and noncompliant with accessibility guidelines as part of the open government dashboard; and better enforcement and monitoring procedures within government agencies, such as the loss of Web-posting privileges for repeatedly posting inaccessible content. >> >> >> ### >> >> >> About the National Federation of the Blind >> >> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. >> >> > _______________________________________________ > gui-talk mailing list > gui-talk at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for gui-talk: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From z.dreicer at emissives.com Fri May 20 01:12:01 2011 From: z.dreicer at emissives.com (dreicer, zachary) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:12:01 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Samson Haven Message-ID: no, it just beeps. Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serena Cucco" Message-ID: <9DA999110131439F8C1F258580A0075C@SerenaPC> Then, I'm guessing the iphone is the only phone that identifies call waiting calls? For your info, I use Verizon. Serena -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dreicer, zachary Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:12 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Samson Haven no, it just beeps. Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serena Cucco" i think so but am not sure. haven does identify incoming calls when nobody is already using it. Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serena Cucco" References: Message-ID: <30830473-6911-469A-ADBB-1ECB048A64B1@gmail.com> I don't think we're doing enough with the middleschool/elementary population. We need to get the message out faster, to the younger kids. On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: > Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think about this question? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" wrote: > >> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, and whether or not we're doing anything to address how to communicate our message in a way that will reach people through new technologies. Thanks. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Fri May 20 01:28:01 2011 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 20:28:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] MS Excel and accessibility Message-ID: Chris, In some ways, this is really a more complicated question than it might seem on the surface. Excel does work pretty good with JFW and with Window-Eyes and even some other screen readers. If you are not at all familiar with spreadsheets, and if Excel is used as a tool in your school, taking some time to learn about spreadsheets is a good idea. I believe there are still tutorials that are free or low cost from the Iowa Department for the Blind. Check out http://blind.state.ia.us/assist/ and I think there are other tutorials around. One also has to look at the reason for graphing. If your teacher is having students graphing in excel, the chances are that the students are entering numbers into Excel and then using Excel to display the graph. The purpose is therefore not to have students draw graphs but to show them what the graph will look like. This means that the extra work you are doing to make a graph on your braille writer is probably beyond the call of duty in a way. Unfortunately, even though Excel is accessible, you won't know what the graph looks like. How numbers relate to each other on a graph is important for some concepts. Therefore, even if you don't make the graph, it is important that you understand what they look like. If what I have said is accurate, you should talk to your instructor and whatever resources to see if there is a more efficient way for you to handle this. There are drawing kits that people can use to make tactile drawings, but this isn't always necessary. I believe the American Printing House for the Blind still has graph paper, and one can do a lot with that and pipe cleaners. The goal here would be to find tools that someone else could use to show you what the graphs look like if the kids are letting Excel generate the graphs for them. Try to get an idea of what the true purpose of this particular exercise is, to have you draw a graph or to have you see what it looks like. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Wed, 18 May 2011 16:09:11 -0400, -ris Nusbaum wrote: >Ok. Before I ask for the link, how much does it cost? Are there >any free ways I can learn to work it, like an FS Cast or >something? > Chris >"A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >--- Sent from my BrailleNote > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "dreicer, zachary" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing >listDate sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 15:46:32 -0600 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] MS Excel and accessibility >pretty good! there's a carroll tech class if you want to pay for >instruction. Let me know and I can get you the link to their >site >Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex > ----- Original Message ----- >From: ?is Nusbaum To: National Association of Blind Students mailing >listDate sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 17:18:21 -0400 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] MS Excel and accessibility >Good... so, how does it work with JAWS? > Chris >"A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >--- Sent from my BrailleNote > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "dreicer, zachary" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing >listDate sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 15:07:32 -0600 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] MS Excel and accessibility >excel is pretty good with jaws >Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Chris Nusbaum To: NABS list Date sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 15:57:02 -0400 >Subject: [nabs-l] MS Excel and accessibility >Hi, all! >Lately in science class, we've been doing a lot of assignments >involving graphing data from an experiment, or lab, into MS >Excel. Since we haven't tried it on my computer, and my TVI >doesn't know a lot about its interaction with screen readers >(JAWS in particular) we make the graph manually on my >Braillewriter, which is tedious and time-consuming (at least more >time-consuming than doing it in Excel.) This can amount to be >pretty annoying. My classmates are getting the graph done on the >computer in no time and are moving on to notes that are homework >if not finished in class, and having enough time to finish the >notes and have no homework! However, I didn't even have time to >start on the notes because the graph took so long to make (from >scratch) on the Brailler, and had to do it all at home. * Frown. >So, I'd like to know how accessible Excel is to screen readers, >especially in making graphs or spread sheets. What have your >experiences been with Excel and are there any tips or tricks you >use with it? Or do I still have to go old-school and do it on the >Brailler? (smile) Any help would be apreciated! Thanks! >Chris Nusbaum >"A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >--- Sent from my BrailleNote >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer >%40emissives.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >sbaum%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer >%40emissives.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri May 20 01:43:58 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 18:43:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: <30830473-6911-469A-ADBB-1ECB048A64B1@gmail.com> References: <30830473-6911-469A-ADBB-1ECB048A64B1@gmail.com> Message-ID: You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion is the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what you may think needs improving?" I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit of mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a matter that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, this in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are also very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the answers! Best, Darian On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > I don't think we're doing enough with the middleschool/elementary > population. > We need to get the message out faster, > to the younger kids. > > > On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: > >> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think about this >> question? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" wrote: >> >>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, and >>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to communicate our >>> message in a way that will reach people through new technologies. Thanks. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri May 20 01:57:10 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:57:10 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <30830473-6911-469A-ADBB-1ECB048A64B1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Darian and all, I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission teachers. (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, itinerate teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind students, and their parents, first impressions about blindness and thus they have a huge influence on whatever expectations a student or parent develops about what is possible as a blind person. I think we need to put a lot more energy in to sincerely dialoguing with these teachers, especially the reasonable ones who don't agree with us (I'm not saying all teachers who disagree with us are reasonable), to improve our image and the way we're presented to students. Because my state affiliate is pretty good at this, my TVI, although she disagreed with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't discourage me from coming to my own opinions and getting as much firsthand experience with the Federation as I could. Even those blindness professionals who disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a civil and courteous manner, direct students to our organization. It happened with me. Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: > You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion is > the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what you may > think needs improving?" > I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit of > mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a matter > that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, this > in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are also > very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the answers! > Best, > Darian > > On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> I don't think we're doing enough with the middleschool/elementary >> population. >> We need to get the message out faster, >> to the younger kids. >> >> >> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >> >>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think about this >>> question? >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" wrote: >>> >>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, and >>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to communicate our >>>> message in a way that will reach people through new technologies. >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri May 20 02:01:33 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 20:01:33 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This surprises me-not that I'm a government internet expert, but I've seen a lot of their sites and the only one that really gave me any trouble was Amtrak. On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: David Andrews >> Date: May 19, 2011 8:22:40 PM EDT >> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site >> Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >> Reply-To: "Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk Mailing >> List" >> >> >>> >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >> >> >> >>> CONTACT: >>> Chris Danielsen >>> Director of Public Relations >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site >>> Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind Expresses Outrage, Demands Swift Action >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (May 19, 2011): A study that has just been published >>> online in the journal >>> Government >>> Information Quarterly has found that of one-hundred Web sites operated by >>> federal government agencies, over 90 percent do not comply with >>> government accessibility guidelines and likely cannot be used by people >>> who are blind or have other perceptual or motor disabilities. The study, >>> entitled "Accessibility of U.S. federal government home pages: Section >>> 508 compliance and site accessibility statements" and coauthored by >>> Doctoral Student Abiodun Olalere and Professor Jonathan Lazar of Towson >>> University, found that the home pages of over 90 percent of the Web sites >>> they evaluated contained violations of the government's own guidelines >>> for compliance with Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. That >>> law requires that government electronic and information technology be >>> accessible to people with disabilities. >>> >>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: >>> "Blind Americans are outraged that the government is failing to comply >>> with its own guidelines to make government information and services >>> available to citizens with disabilities. Given the clear legal >>> requirements of Section 508 and the fact that use of the Internet is >>> critical to education, employment, access to government benefits and >>> services, and all other aspects of modern life, there is no excuse for >>> failure to follow and rigorously enforce these guidelines. We demand >>> that officials in all branches of government take immediate steps to >>> bring all federal Web sites into compliance with the law, and we pledge >>> to continue to hold the federal government accountable if it continues to >>> treat the blind and others with disabilities as second-class citizens." >>> >>> The study evaluated the home pages of one-hundred government Web sites >>> across all three branches of the federal government, including executive >>> agencies, independent agencies, government corporations (e.g. Amtrak), >>> the United States Congress, the United States Supreme Court, United >>> States federal courts, and "open government" Web sites like >>> www.usajobs.gov and >>> www.ready.gov. The authors utilized both >>> automated-software tools and human-expert inspections on each home page, >>> and determined that over 90 percent of the home pages were not in >>> compliance with the Section 508 regulations. >>> >>> Most of the accessibility problems were common ones that are easily >>> resolved, such as unlabeled images, mislabeled forms or tables, videos >>> without captioning, flash without any textual equivalents, and lack of >>> keyboard equivalents for mouse-over actions. The authors noted that this >>> is not a problem unique to one agency. Similar problems occur on >>> multiple agency Web sites, and the core problem is the lack of consistent >>> compliance activities and enforcement throughout the federal government. >>> >>> The study makes several recommendations to increase compliance, including >>> improved resources on complying with the guidelines; better documentation >>> of best practices; publishing of information about which agencies are >>> compliant and noncompliant with accessibility guidelines as part of the >>> open government dashboard; and better enforcement and monitoring >>> procedures within government agencies, such as the loss of Web-posting >>> privileges for repeatedly posting inaccessible content. >>> >>> >>> ### >>> >>> >>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is >>> the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people >>> in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through >>> advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging >>> independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the >>> blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January >>> 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan >>> Institute, the first research and training center in the United States >>> for the blind led by the blind. >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> gui-talk mailing list >> gui-talk at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> gui-talk: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From wujing19861209 at hotmail.com Fri May 20 02:21:34 2011 From: wujing19861209 at hotmail.com (=?gb2312?B?SmluZyBDcnlzdGFsIFd1IM7ivqc=?=) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 04:21:34 +0200 Subject: [nabs-l] A question regarding Braillenote and Braille sense Message-ID: Dear all, Bethel foundation in China is going to buy a few technical equipments for its blind orphans. I am searching for advice on Braillenote and Braille Sense. I am using a Braille sense myself and found it quite easy to operate. Who can give me more suggestions on this purchase? It would be very highly appreciated. Thank you. Sincerely, Crystal From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Fri May 20 02:25:50 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 22:25:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What screenreader are you using? On May 19, 2011, at 10:01 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > This surprises me-not that I'm a government internet expert, but I've > seen a lot of their sites and the only one that really gave me any > trouble was Amtrak. > > On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: May 19, 2011 8:22:40 PM EDT >>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site >>> Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >>> Reply-To: "Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk Mailing >>> List" >>> >>> >>>> >>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> >>> >>>> CONTACT: >>>> Chris Danielsen >>>> Director of Public Relations >>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>> >>>> Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site >>>> Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >>>> >>>> National Federation of the Blind Expresses Outrage, Demands Swift Action >>>> >>>> Baltimore, Maryland (May 19, 2011): A study that has just been published >>>> online in the journal >>>> Government >>>> Information Quarterly has found that of one-hundred Web sites operated by >>>> federal government agencies, over 90 percent do not comply with >>>> government accessibility guidelines and likely cannot be used by people >>>> who are blind or have other perceptual or motor disabilities. The study, >>>> entitled "Accessibility of U.S. federal government home pages: Section >>>> 508 compliance and site accessibility statements" and coauthored by >>>> Doctoral Student Abiodun Olalere and Professor Jonathan Lazar of Towson >>>> University, found that the home pages of over 90 percent of the Web sites >>>> they evaluated contained violations of the government's own guidelines >>>> for compliance with Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. That >>>> law requires that government electronic and information technology be >>>> accessible to people with disabilities. >>>> >>>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: >>>> "Blind Americans are outraged that the government is failing to comply >>>> with its own guidelines to make government information and services >>>> available to citizens with disabilities. Given the clear legal >>>> requirements of Section 508 and the fact that use of the Internet is >>>> critical to education, employment, access to government benefits and >>>> services, and all other aspects of modern life, there is no excuse for >>>> failure to follow and rigorously enforce these guidelines. We demand >>>> that officials in all branches of government take immediate steps to >>>> bring all federal Web sites into compliance with the law, and we pledge >>>> to continue to hold the federal government accountable if it continues to >>>> treat the blind and others with disabilities as second-class citizens." >>>> >>>> The study evaluated the home pages of one-hundred government Web sites >>>> across all three branches of the federal government, including executive >>>> agencies, independent agencies, government corporations (e.g. Amtrak), >>>> the United States Congress, the United States Supreme Court, United >>>> States federal courts, and "open government" Web sites like >>>> www.usajobs.gov and >>>> www.ready.gov. The authors utilized both >>>> automated-software tools and human-expert inspections on each home page, >>>> and determined that over 90 percent of the home pages were not in >>>> compliance with the Section 508 regulations. >>>> >>>> Most of the accessibility problems were common ones that are easily >>>> resolved, such as unlabeled images, mislabeled forms or tables, videos >>>> without captioning, flash without any textual equivalents, and lack of >>>> keyboard equivalents for mouse-over actions. The authors noted that this >>>> is not a problem unique to one agency. Similar problems occur on >>>> multiple agency Web sites, and the core problem is the lack of consistent >>>> compliance activities and enforcement throughout the federal government. >>>> >>>> The study makes several recommendations to increase compliance, including >>>> improved resources on complying with the guidelines; better documentation >>>> of best practices; publishing of information about which agencies are >>>> compliant and noncompliant with accessibility guidelines as part of the >>>> open government dashboard; and better enforcement and monitoring >>>> procedures within government agencies, such as the loss of Web-posting >>>> privileges for repeatedly posting inaccessible content. >>>> >>>> >>>> ### >>>> >>>> >>>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>>> >>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is >>>> the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people >>>> in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through >>>> advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging >>>> independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the >>>> blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January >>>> 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan >>>> Institute, the first research and training center in the United States >>>> for the blind led by the blind. >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gui-talk mailing list >>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> gui-talk: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri May 20 02:25:57 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 20:25:57 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] A question regarding Braillenote and Braille sense In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Crystal, I only know about the Apex-I know it has a wide array of features for a notetaker, has a relatively simple interface and a moderately easy learning curve. But the Braille Sense and the Apedx both seem like pretty decent notetakers. Hope that helps,, Kirt On 5/19/11, Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 wrote: > Dear all, > > Bethel foundation in China is going to buy a few technical equipments for > its blind orphans. I am searching for advice on Braillenote and Braille > Sense. I am using a Braille sense myself and found it quite easy to operate. > Who can give me more suggestions on this purchase? It would be very highly > appreciated. Thank you. > > Sincerely, > Crystal > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Fri May 20 02:28:17 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 22:28:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A question regarding Braillenote and Braille sense In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I say go for either the Braille Sense or the Pacmate, just because they're a bit more standard as far as applications go. If you want something that can work with other applications, Braille Sense or Packmate. If you are looking for traditional note takers, then the Braillenote is good. On May 19, 2011, at 10:21 PM, Jing Crystal Wu 吴晶 wrote: > Dear all, > > Bethel foundation in China is going to buy a few technical equipments for its blind orphans. I am searching for advice on Braillenote and Braille Sense. I am using a Braille sense myself and found it quite easy to operate. Who can give me more suggestions on this purchase? It would be very highly appreciated. Thank you. > > Sincerely, > Crystal > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From k7uij at panix.com Fri May 20 02:51:57 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:51:57 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00b301cc1698$e2f3f2a0$a8dbd7e0$@panix.com> Actually, AMTRAK's site is accessible -- it just isn't useable -- they're two different things. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jorge Paez Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates What screenreader are you using? On May 19, 2011, at 10:01 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > This surprises me-not that I'm a government internet expert, but I've > seen a lot of their sites and the only one that really gave me any > trouble was Amtrak. > > On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >>> From: David Andrews >>> Date: May 19, 2011 8:22:40 PM EDT >>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web >>> Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >>> Reply-To: "Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk >>> Mailing List" >>> >>> >>>> >>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> >>> >>>> CONTACT: >>>> Chris Danielsen >>>> Director of Public Relations >>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>> >>>> Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site Accessibility >>>> Requirements, Study Indicates >>>> >>>> National Federation of the Blind Expresses Outrage, Demands Swift >>>> Action >>>> >>>> Baltimore, Maryland (May 19, 2011): A study that has just been >>>> published online in the journal >>>> Government >>>> Information Quarterly has found that of one-hundred Web sites >>>> operated by federal government agencies, over 90 percent do not >>>> comply with government accessibility guidelines and likely cannot >>>> be used by people who are blind or have other perceptual or motor >>>> disabilities. The study, entitled "Accessibility of U.S. federal >>>> government home pages: Section >>>> 508 compliance and site accessibility statements" and coauthored by >>>> Doctoral Student Abiodun Olalere and Professor Jonathan Lazar of >>>> Towson University, found that the home pages of over 90 percent of >>>> the Web sites they evaluated contained violations of the >>>> government's own guidelines for compliance with Section 508 of the >>>> Rehabilitation Act of 1973. That law requires that government >>>> electronic and information technology be accessible to people with disabilities. >>>> >>>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: >>>> "Blind Americans are outraged that the government is failing to >>>> comply with its own guidelines to make government information and >>>> services available to citizens with disabilities. Given the clear >>>> legal requirements of Section 508 and the fact that use of the >>>> Internet is critical to education, employment, access to government >>>> benefits and services, and all other aspects of modern life, there >>>> is no excuse for failure to follow and rigorously enforce these >>>> guidelines. We demand that officials in all branches of government >>>> take immediate steps to bring all federal Web sites into compliance >>>> with the law, and we pledge to continue to hold the federal >>>> government accountable if it continues to treat the blind and others with disabilities as second-class citizens." >>>> >>>> The study evaluated the home pages of one-hundred government Web >>>> sites across all three branches of the federal government, >>>> including executive agencies, independent agencies, government >>>> corporations (e.g. Amtrak), the United States Congress, the United >>>> States Supreme Court, United States federal courts, and "open >>>> government" Web sites like www.usajobs.gov >>>> and www.ready.gov. The authors utilized both >>>> automated-software tools and human-expert inspections on each home >>>> page, and determined that over 90 percent of the home pages were >>>> not in compliance with the Section 508 regulations. >>>> >>>> Most of the accessibility problems were common ones that are easily >>>> resolved, such as unlabeled images, mislabeled forms or tables, >>>> videos without captioning, flash without any textual equivalents, >>>> and lack of keyboard equivalents for mouse-over actions. The >>>> authors noted that this is not a problem unique to one agency. >>>> Similar problems occur on multiple agency Web sites, and the core >>>> problem is the lack of consistent compliance activities and enforcement throughout the federal government. >>>> >>>> The study makes several recommendations to increase compliance, >>>> including improved resources on complying with the guidelines; >>>> better documentation of best practices; publishing of information >>>> about which agencies are compliant and noncompliant with >>>> accessibility guidelines as part of the open government dashboard; >>>> and better enforcement and monitoring procedures within government >>>> agencies, such as the loss of Web-posting privileges for repeatedly posting inaccessible content. >>>> >>>> >>>> ### >>>> >>>> >>>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>>> >>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >>>> is the largest and most influential membership organization of >>>> blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's >>>> lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and >>>> programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the >>>> leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the >>>> nation's blind. In January >>>> 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan >>>> Institute, the first research and training center in the United >>>> States for the blind led by the blind. >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gui-talk mailing list >>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> gui-talk: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/computerte >>> chjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >> e%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjo > rgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Fri May 20 02:53:19 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:53:19 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Message-ID: Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What about the future of Nemeth? From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Fri May 20 02:54:12 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:54:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government NotComplying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates References: <00b301cc1698$e2f3f2a0$a8dbd7e0$@panix.com> Message-ID: Okay... Can you explain? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government NotComplying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates > Actually, AMTRAK's site is accessible -- it just isn't useable -- they're > two different things. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Jorge Paez > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not > Complying > with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates > > What screenreader are you using? > > On May 19, 2011, at 10:01 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >> This surprises me-not that I'm a government internet expert, but I've >> seen a lot of their sites and the only one that really gave me any >> trouble was Amtrak. >> >> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>>> From: David Andrews >>>> Date: May 19, 2011 8:22:40 PM EDT >>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web >>>> Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >>>> Reply-To: "Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk >>>> Mailing List" >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> Director of Public Relations >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site Accessibility >>>>> Requirements, Study Indicates >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind Expresses Outrage, Demands Swift >>>>> Action >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (May 19, 2011): A study that has just been >>>>> published online in the journal >>>>> Government >>>>> Information Quarterly has found that of one-hundred Web sites >>>>> operated by federal government agencies, over 90 percent do not >>>>> comply with government accessibility guidelines and likely cannot >>>>> be used by people who are blind or have other perceptual or motor >>>>> disabilities. The study, entitled "Accessibility of U.S. federal >>>>> government home pages: Section >>>>> 508 compliance and site accessibility statements" and coauthored by >>>>> Doctoral Student Abiodun Olalere and Professor Jonathan Lazar of >>>>> Towson University, found that the home pages of over 90 percent of >>>>> the Web sites they evaluated contained violations of the >>>>> government's own guidelines for compliance with Section 508 of the >>>>> Rehabilitation Act of 1973. That law requires that government >>>>> electronic and information technology be accessible to people with > disabilities. >>>>> >>>>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, > said: >>>>> "Blind Americans are outraged that the government is failing to >>>>> comply with its own guidelines to make government information and >>>>> services available to citizens with disabilities. Given the clear >>>>> legal requirements of Section 508 and the fact that use of the >>>>> Internet is critical to education, employment, access to government >>>>> benefits and services, and all other aspects of modern life, there >>>>> is no excuse for failure to follow and rigorously enforce these >>>>> guidelines. We demand that officials in all branches of government >>>>> take immediate steps to bring all federal Web sites into compliance >>>>> with the law, and we pledge to continue to hold the federal >>>>> government accountable if it continues to treat the blind and others > with disabilities as second-class citizens." >>>>> >>>>> The study evaluated the home pages of one-hundred government Web >>>>> sites across all three branches of the federal government, >>>>> including executive agencies, independent agencies, government >>>>> corporations (e.g. Amtrak), the United States Congress, the United >>>>> States Supreme Court, United States federal courts, and "open >>>>> government" Web sites like www.usajobs.gov >>>>> and www.ready.gov. The authors utilized both >>>>> automated-software tools and human-expert inspections on each home >>>>> page, and determined that over 90 percent of the home pages were >>>>> not in compliance with the Section 508 regulations. >>>>> >>>>> Most of the accessibility problems were common ones that are easily >>>>> resolved, such as unlabeled images, mislabeled forms or tables, >>>>> videos without captioning, flash without any textual equivalents, >>>>> and lack of keyboard equivalents for mouse-over actions. The >>>>> authors noted that this is not a problem unique to one agency. >>>>> Similar problems occur on multiple agency Web sites, and the core >>>>> problem is the lack of consistent compliance activities and >>>>> enforcement > throughout the federal government. >>>>> >>>>> The study makes several recommendations to increase compliance, >>>>> including improved resources on complying with the guidelines; >>>>> better documentation of best practices; publishing of information >>>>> about which agencies are compliant and noncompliant with >>>>> accessibility guidelines as part of the open government dashboard; >>>>> and better enforcement and monitoring procedures within government >>>>> agencies, such as the loss of Web-posting privileges for repeatedly > posting inaccessible content. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >>>>> is the largest and most influential membership organization of >>>>> blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's >>>>> lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and >>>>> programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the >>>>> leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the >>>>> nation's blind. In January >>>>> 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan >>>>> Institute, the first research and training center in the United >>>>> States for the blind led by the blind. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gui-talk mailing list >>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> gui-talk: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/computerte >>>> chjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>> e%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjo >> rgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From k7uij at panix.com Fri May 20 02:55:05 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:55:05 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <30830473-6911-469A-ADBB-1ECB048A64B1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b401cc1699$53396720$f9ac3560$@panix.com> On the other hand, no matter how reasonably we present ourselves, our philosophy in and of itself is such a threat to some TVIs that their ears are closed. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 6:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB Darian and all, I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission teachers. (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, itinerate teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind students, and their parents, first impressions about blindness and thus they have a huge influence on whatever expectations a student or parent develops about what is possible as a blind person. I think we need to put a lot more energy in to sincerely dialoguing with these teachers, especially the reasonable ones who don't agree with us (I'm not saying all teachers who disagree with us are reasonable), to improve our image and the way we're presented to students. Because my state affiliate is pretty good at this, my TVI, although she disagreed with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't discourage me from coming to my own opinions and getting as much firsthand experience with the Federation as I could. Even those blindness professionals who disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a civil and courteous manner, direct students to our organization. It happened with me. Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: > You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion is > the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what you may > think needs improving?" > I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit of > mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a matter > that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, this > in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are also > very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the answers! > Best, > Darian > > On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> I don't think we're doing enough with the middleschool/elementary >> population. >> We need to get the message out faster, to the younger kids. >> >> >> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >> >>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think about >>> this question? >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" wrote: >>> >>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, and >>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to communicate >>>> our message in a way that will reach people through new technologies. >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%4 >>>> 0gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertech >>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >> mail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: > http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude > %40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Fri May 20 03:03:10 2011 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 22:03:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Samson Haven Message-ID: <009101cc169a$749072a0$5db157e0$@com> Running Talks on the Nokia phones you are able to identify incoming calls when you are on the other line. This will not help, I don't think, if you are tied to Verizon, as my understanding is that the Nokia phones cannot run on Verizon's network. Sean From k7uij at panix.com Fri May 20 03:28:51 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 20:28:51 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government NotComplying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates In-Reply-To: References: <00b301cc1698$e2f3f2a0$a8dbd7e0$@panix.com> Message-ID: <00bf01cc169e$0a96ca80$1fc45f80$@panix.com> I can make reservations on the site; it's just terribly awkward and one has to poke around a bit and realize that as you add stuff, the page expands. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:54 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government NotComplying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates Okay... Can you explain? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government NotComplying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates > Actually, AMTRAK's site is accessible -- it just isn't useable -- they're > two different things. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Jorge Paez > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not > Complying > with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates > > What screenreader are you using? > > On May 19, 2011, at 10:01 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >> This surprises me-not that I'm a government internet expert, but I've >> seen a lot of their sites and the only one that really gave me any >> trouble was Amtrak. >> >> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>>> From: David Andrews >>>> Date: May 19, 2011 8:22:40 PM EDT >>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web >>>> Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >>>> Reply-To: "Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk >>>> Mailing List" >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> Director of Public Relations >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site Accessibility >>>>> Requirements, Study Indicates >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind Expresses Outrage, Demands Swift >>>>> Action >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (May 19, 2011): A study that has just been >>>>> published online in the journal >>>>> Government >>>>> Information Quarterly has found that of one-hundred Web sites >>>>> operated by federal government agencies, over 90 percent do not >>>>> comply with government accessibility guidelines and likely cannot >>>>> be used by people who are blind or have other perceptual or motor >>>>> disabilities. The study, entitled "Accessibility of U.S. federal >>>>> government home pages: Section >>>>> 508 compliance and site accessibility statements" and coauthored by >>>>> Doctoral Student Abiodun Olalere and Professor Jonathan Lazar of >>>>> Towson University, found that the home pages of over 90 percent of >>>>> the Web sites they evaluated contained violations of the >>>>> government's own guidelines for compliance with Section 508 of the >>>>> Rehabilitation Act of 1973. That law requires that government >>>>> electronic and information technology be accessible to people with > disabilities. >>>>> >>>>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, > said: >>>>> "Blind Americans are outraged that the government is failing to >>>>> comply with its own guidelines to make government information and >>>>> services available to citizens with disabilities. Given the clear >>>>> legal requirements of Section 508 and the fact that use of the >>>>> Internet is critical to education, employment, access to government >>>>> benefits and services, and all other aspects of modern life, there >>>>> is no excuse for failure to follow and rigorously enforce these >>>>> guidelines. We demand that officials in all branches of government >>>>> take immediate steps to bring all federal Web sites into compliance >>>>> with the law, and we pledge to continue to hold the federal >>>>> government accountable if it continues to treat the blind and others > with disabilities as second-class citizens." >>>>> >>>>> The study evaluated the home pages of one-hundred government Web >>>>> sites across all three branches of the federal government, >>>>> including executive agencies, independent agencies, government >>>>> corporations (e.g. Amtrak), the United States Congress, the United >>>>> States Supreme Court, United States federal courts, and "open >>>>> government" Web sites like www.usajobs.gov >>>>> and www.ready.gov. The authors utilized both >>>>> automated-software tools and human-expert inspections on each home >>>>> page, and determined that over 90 percent of the home pages were >>>>> not in compliance with the Section 508 regulations. >>>>> >>>>> Most of the accessibility problems were common ones that are easily >>>>> resolved, such as unlabeled images, mislabeled forms or tables, >>>>> videos without captioning, flash without any textual equivalents, >>>>> and lack of keyboard equivalents for mouse-over actions. The >>>>> authors noted that this is not a problem unique to one agency. >>>>> Similar problems occur on multiple agency Web sites, and the core >>>>> problem is the lack of consistent compliance activities and >>>>> enforcement > throughout the federal government. >>>>> >>>>> The study makes several recommendations to increase compliance, >>>>> including improved resources on complying with the guidelines; >>>>> better documentation of best practices; publishing of information >>>>> about which agencies are compliant and noncompliant with >>>>> accessibility guidelines as part of the open government dashboard; >>>>> and better enforcement and monitoring procedures within government >>>>> agencies, such as the loss of Web-posting privileges for repeatedly > posting inaccessible content. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >>>>> is the largest and most influential membership organization of >>>>> blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's >>>>> lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and >>>>> programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the >>>>> leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the >>>>> nation's blind. In January >>>>> 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan >>>>> Institute, the first research and training center in the United >>>>> States for the blind led by the blind. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gui-talk mailing list >>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> gui-talk: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/computerte >>>> chjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>> e%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjo >> rgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecab le.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From k7uij at panix.com Fri May 20 03:29:14 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 20:29:14 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c001cc169e$18833e80$4989bb80$@panix.com> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What about the future of Nemeth? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri May 20 03:47:36 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 21:47:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government NotComplying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates In-Reply-To: <00bf01cc169e$0a96ca80$1fc45f80$@panix.com> References: <00b301cc1698$e2f3f2a0$a8dbd7e0$@panix.com> <00bf01cc169e$0a96ca80$1fc45f80$@panix.com> Message-ID: :) Let the hair-splitting begin. On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > I can make reservations on the site; it's just terribly awkward and one has > to poke around a bit and realize that as you add stuff, the page expands. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:54 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government NotComplying > with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates > > Okay... Can you explain? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:51 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government NotComplying > with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates > > >> Actually, AMTRAK's site is accessible -- it just isn't useable -- they're >> two different things. >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Jorge Paez >> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:26 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not >> Complying >> with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >> >> What screenreader are you using? >> >> On May 19, 2011, at 10:01 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >>> This surprises me-not that I'm a government internet expert, but I've >>> seen a lot of their sites and the only one that really gave me any >>> trouble was Amtrak. >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>> >>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>> Date: May 19, 2011 8:22:40 PM EDT >>>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web >>>>> Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >>>>> Reply-To: "Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk >>>>> Mailing List" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> CONTACT: >>>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>>> Director of Public Relations >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site Accessibility >>>>>> Requirements, Study Indicates >>>>>> >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind Expresses Outrage, Demands Swift >>>>>> Action >>>>>> >>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (May 19, 2011): A study that has just been >>>>>> published online in the journal >>>>>> Government >>>>>> Information Quarterly has found that of one-hundred Web sites >>>>>> operated by federal government agencies, over 90 percent do not >>>>>> comply with government accessibility guidelines and likely cannot >>>>>> be used by people who are blind or have other perceptual or motor >>>>>> disabilities. The study, entitled "Accessibility of U.S. federal >>>>>> government home pages: Section >>>>>> 508 compliance and site accessibility statements" and coauthored by >>>>>> Doctoral Student Abiodun Olalere and Professor Jonathan Lazar of >>>>>> Towson University, found that the home pages of over 90 percent of >>>>>> the Web sites they evaluated contained violations of the >>>>>> government's own guidelines for compliance with Section 508 of the >>>>>> Rehabilitation Act of 1973. That law requires that government >>>>>> electronic and information technology be accessible to people with >> disabilities. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, >> said: >>>>>> "Blind Americans are outraged that the government is failing to >>>>>> comply with its own guidelines to make government information and >>>>>> services available to citizens with disabilities. Given the clear >>>>>> legal requirements of Section 508 and the fact that use of the >>>>>> Internet is critical to education, employment, access to government >>>>>> benefits and services, and all other aspects of modern life, there >>>>>> is no excuse for failure to follow and rigorously enforce these >>>>>> guidelines. We demand that officials in all branches of government >>>>>> take immediate steps to bring all federal Web sites into compliance >>>>>> with the law, and we pledge to continue to hold the federal >>>>>> government accountable if it continues to treat the blind and others >> with disabilities as second-class citizens." >>>>>> >>>>>> The study evaluated the home pages of one-hundred government Web >>>>>> sites across all three branches of the federal government, >>>>>> including executive agencies, independent agencies, government >>>>>> corporations (e.g. Amtrak), the United States Congress, the United >>>>>> States Supreme Court, United States federal courts, and "open >>>>>> government" Web sites like www.usajobs.gov >>>>>> and www.ready.gov. The authors utilized both >>>>>> automated-software tools and human-expert inspections on each home >>>>>> page, and determined that over 90 percent of the home pages were >>>>>> not in compliance with the Section 508 regulations. >>>>>> >>>>>> Most of the accessibility problems were common ones that are easily >>>>>> resolved, such as unlabeled images, mislabeled forms or tables, >>>>>> videos without captioning, flash without any textual equivalents, >>>>>> and lack of keyboard equivalents for mouse-over actions. The >>>>>> authors noted that this is not a problem unique to one agency. >>>>>> Similar problems occur on multiple agency Web sites, and the core >>>>>> problem is the lack of consistent compliance activities and >>>>>> enforcement >> throughout the federal government. >>>>>> >>>>>> The study makes several recommendations to increase compliance, >>>>>> including improved resources on complying with the guidelines; >>>>>> better documentation of best practices; publishing of information >>>>>> about which agencies are compliant and noncompliant with >>>>>> accessibility guidelines as part of the open government dashboard; >>>>>> and better enforcement and monitoring procedures within government >>>>>> agencies, such as the loss of Web-posting privileges for repeatedly >> posting inaccessible content. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ### >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>>>>> >>>>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >>>>>> is the largest and most influential membership organization of >>>>>> blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's >>>>>> lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and >>>>>> programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the >>>>>> leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the >>>>>> nation's blind. In January >>>>>> 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan >>>>>> Institute, the first research and training center in the United >>>>>> States for the blind led by the blind. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> gui-talk mailing list >>>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> gui-talk: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/computerte >>>>> chjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>> e%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjo >>> rgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecab > le.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From brice.smith319 at gmail.com Fri May 20 04:20:43 2011 From: brice.smith319 at gmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 00:20:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government NotComplying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates In-Reply-To: References: <00b301cc1698$e2f3f2a0$a8dbd7e0$@panix.com> <00bf01cc169e$0a96ca80$1fc45f80$@panix.com> Message-ID: At the risk of being that guy, I just took two minutes to find a train from my hometown to Orlando for convention. It would cost me about $80 and would travel through the night. I backed out short of entering my credit card number. I didn't experience any awkward poking around and the process seemed usable to me. What's the problem? Brice On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > :) Let the hair-splitting begin. > > On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> I can make reservations on the site; it's just terribly awkward and one >> has >> to poke around a bit and realize that as you add stuff, the page expands. >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:54 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government NotComplying >> with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >> >> Okay... Can you explain? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Freeman" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:51 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government NotComplying >> with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >> >> >>> Actually, AMTRAK's site is accessible -- it just isn't useable -- they're >>> two different things. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Jorge Paez >>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:26 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not >>> Complying >>> with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >>> >>> What screenreader are you using? >>> >>> On May 19, 2011, at 10:01 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> >>>> This surprises me-not that I'm a government internet expert, but I've >>>> seen a lot of their sites and the only one that really gave me any >>>> trouble was Amtrak. >>>> >>>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>>> >>>>>> From: David Andrews >>>>>> Date: May 19, 2011 8:22:40 PM EDT >>>>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Subject: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web >>>>>> Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >>>>>> Reply-To: "Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk >>>>>> Mailing List" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> CONTACT: >>>>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>>>> Director of Public Relations >>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site Accessibility >>>>>>> Requirements, Study Indicates >>>>>>> >>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind Expresses Outrage, Demands Swift >>>>>>> Action >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (May 19, 2011): A study that has just been >>>>>>> published online in the journal >>>>>>> Government >>>>>>> Information Quarterly has found that of one-hundred Web sites >>>>>>> operated by federal government agencies, over 90 percent do not >>>>>>> comply with government accessibility guidelines and likely cannot >>>>>>> be used by people who are blind or have other perceptual or motor >>>>>>> disabilities. The study, entitled "Accessibility of U.S. federal >>>>>>> government home pages: Section >>>>>>> 508 compliance and site accessibility statements" and coauthored by >>>>>>> Doctoral Student Abiodun Olalere and Professor Jonathan Lazar of >>>>>>> Towson University, found that the home pages of over 90 percent of >>>>>>> the Web sites they evaluated contained violations of the >>>>>>> government's own guidelines for compliance with Section 508 of the >>>>>>> Rehabilitation Act of 1973. That law requires that government >>>>>>> electronic and information technology be accessible to people with >>> disabilities. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, >>> said: >>>>>>> "Blind Americans are outraged that the government is failing to >>>>>>> comply with its own guidelines to make government information and >>>>>>> services available to citizens with disabilities. Given the clear >>>>>>> legal requirements of Section 508 and the fact that use of the >>>>>>> Internet is critical to education, employment, access to government >>>>>>> benefits and services, and all other aspects of modern life, there >>>>>>> is no excuse for failure to follow and rigorously enforce these >>>>>>> guidelines. We demand that officials in all branches of government >>>>>>> take immediate steps to bring all federal Web sites into compliance >>>>>>> with the law, and we pledge to continue to hold the federal >>>>>>> government accountable if it continues to treat the blind and others >>> with disabilities as second-class citizens." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The study evaluated the home pages of one-hundred government Web >>>>>>> sites across all three branches of the federal government, >>>>>>> including executive agencies, independent agencies, government >>>>>>> corporations (e.g. Amtrak), the United States Congress, the United >>>>>>> States Supreme Court, United States federal courts, and "open >>>>>>> government" Web sites like www.usajobs.gov >>>>>>> and www.ready.gov. The authors utilized both >>>>>>> automated-software tools and human-expert inspections on each home >>>>>>> page, and determined that over 90 percent of the home pages were >>>>>>> not in compliance with the Section 508 regulations. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Most of the accessibility problems were common ones that are easily >>>>>>> resolved, such as unlabeled images, mislabeled forms or tables, >>>>>>> videos without captioning, flash without any textual equivalents, >>>>>>> and lack of keyboard equivalents for mouse-over actions. The >>>>>>> authors noted that this is not a problem unique to one agency. >>>>>>> Similar problems occur on multiple agency Web sites, and the core >>>>>>> problem is the lack of consistent compliance activities and >>>>>>> enforcement >>> throughout the federal government. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The study makes several recommendations to increase compliance, >>>>>>> including improved resources on complying with the guidelines; >>>>>>> better documentation of best practices; publishing of information >>>>>>> about which agencies are compliant and noncompliant with >>>>>>> accessibility guidelines as part of the open government dashboard; >>>>>>> and better enforcement and monitoring procedures within government >>>>>>> agencies, such as the loss of Web-posting privileges for repeatedly >>> posting inaccessible content. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ### >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>> >>>>>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>> is the largest and most influential membership organization of >>>>>>> blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's >>>>>>> lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and >>>>>>> programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the >>>>>>> leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the >>>>>>> nation's blind. In January >>>>>>> 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan >>>>>>> Institute, the first research and training center in the United >>>>>>> States for the blind led by the blind. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> gui-talk mailing list >>>>>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> gui-talk: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/computerte >>>>>> chjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>>>> e%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjo >>>> rgepaez%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecab >> le.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > -- Brice Smith North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri May 20 04:23:41 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 22:23:41 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <00c001cc169e$18833e80$4989bb80$@panix.com> References: <00c001cc169e$18833e80$4989bb80$@panix.com> Message-ID: I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM > To: NABS-L > Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What > about the future of Nemeth? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Fri May 20 04:30:27 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 23:30:27 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: References: <00c001cc169e$18833e80$4989bb80$@panix.com> Message-ID: i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being changed, or it becoming obsilete. Nemeth Code will stay around! I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! Blessings, Joshua On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main > reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. > > On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >> To: NABS-L >> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What >> about the future of Nemeth? >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Fri May 20 04:49:38 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 21:49:38 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? References: <00c001cc169e$18833e80$4989bb80$@panix.com> Message-ID: <4884DB50D07F447E890F1E9055C0F693@stanford.edu> I have never met Dr. Nemeth in person, but I talked to him over the phone once. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Lester" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:30 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. > I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being > changed, or it becoming obsilete. > Nemeth Code will stay around! > I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! > Blessings, Joshua > > > On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >> >> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>> To: NABS-L >>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>> >>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. >>> What >>> about the future of Nemeth? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Fri May 20 04:55:55 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 23:55:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <4884DB50D07F447E890F1E9055C0F693@stanford.edu> References: <00c001cc169e$18833e80$4989bb80$@panix.com> <4884DB50D07F447E890F1E9055C0F693@stanford.edu> Message-ID: He's a nice man. My former Braille instructor and I went to Dallas, last year, and as we were working on my routes, at the hotel, he sspotted Dr. Nemeth. My former instructor guided Dr. Nemeth, to where he needed to go, and we had a conversation. I hope he's still doing okay. Blessings, Joshua On 5/19/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > I have never met Dr. Nemeth in person, but I talked to him over the phone > once. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joshua Lester" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:30 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > >>i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >> Nemeth Code will stay around! >> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> >> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >>> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>>> To: NABS-L >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>> >>>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. >>>> What >>>> about the future of Nemeth? >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From ignasicambra at gmail.com Fri May 20 06:18:45 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 02:18:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Samson Haven In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9C4A3BD5-D904-4D65-9243-722A71F39955@gmail.com> I know the iPHone does that, and it gives you the option of answering the new call and hanging up the other one, or answering the new call and putting the current one on hold. Works well for me. On May 19, 2011, at 8:55 PM, Serena Cucco wrote: > Hey guys, > > > > I remember some of you have this phone. I'm elligable for an upgrade in a > couple of months and am considering my options. With the Haven, if you're on > the phone and get a call waiting, does the Haven announce who's calling on > the call waiting call? > > > > Thanks, > > Serena > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri May 20 06:54:12 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 23:54:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nmabs] Looking for a roomate for National Convention. In-Reply-To: <4dd60258.e30d440a.5c47.0608@mx.google.com> References: <4dd60258.e30d440a.5c47.0608@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Passing along a message for a friend, If you can helphe below contact Thanks all, Darian ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: NMABS President Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 23:55:36 -0600 Subject: [Nmabs] Looking for a roomate for National Convention. To: New Mexico Association of Blind Students , List for NABS State Presidents Hi all, I recently heard of a young lady, who is a student at the NM Comission for the Blind's Orientation Center, who will be attending this year's National Convention in Orlando. She is looking for a roommate. If you are interested in being her roommate, please contact me, Tara Chavez, NMABS President at nmabs.president at gmail.com and I will put you in touch with her. She needs to know ASAP so please let me know. Thank you all, Tara PS. Please pass along to other lists if possible. -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From jbahm at pcdesk.net Fri May 20 12:28:06 2011 From: jbahm at pcdesk.net (Joseph C. Lininger) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 06:28:06 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Object-oriented Programming Classes Questions In-Reply-To: <0CFF9229-A542-4E05-A3CE-DC114E81425A@panix.com> References: <624DF19A4EEFD647B87A8574625B3A3601053FF04AE3@spnvm1183.bud.bpa.gov> <0CFF9229-A542-4E05-A3CE-DC114E81425A@panix.com> Message-ID: <4DD65E56.4000808@pcdesk.net> Generally beginning object oriented courses are done in Java. Sometimes it will be C++, but it's almost always Java with all of the institutions I know about. You will have no trouble if all you need to write are text based applications. If you have to develop GUI apps, things get a little more interesting because well, frankly, the access to them is just not there. There have been efforts to make it work in the past, but yeah. It's just not there at the moment. Sorry, but I can't really provide any assistance with visual studeo since I don't use that particular environment. I'm more a unix guy myself when it comes to programming. Joe From gpaikens at gmail.com Fri May 20 12:43:53 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: References: <00c001cc169e$18833e80$4989bb80$@panix.com> Message-ID: <55386C95-2E91-4C7A-B0EC-A46BB50B5DDC@gmail.com> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools can be improved and better used in general though. As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. -Greg On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. > I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being > changed, or it becoming obsilete. > Nemeth Code will stay around! > I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! > Blessings, Joshua > > > On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >> >> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>> To: NABS-L >>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>> >>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What >>> about the future of Nemeth? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From gpaikens at gmail.com Fri May 20 12:58:06 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:58:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Object-oriented Programming Classes Questions In-Reply-To: <0CFF9229-A542-4E05-A3CE-DC114E81425A@panix.com> References: <624DF19A4EEFD647B87A8574625B3A3601053FF04AE3@spnvm1183.bud.bpa.gov> <0CFF9229-A542-4E05-A3CE-DC114E81425A@panix.com> Message-ID: <77B98DBF-B06A-4727-AF8B-B7475A5BB205@gmail.com> Hi Mike, There used to be a blind programmers list that was really helpful for me when I was learning Visual Studio. Some of the guys on there had created scripts to make Visual Studio easier to use with jaws and I believe they had created some tutorials. It has been 5 years since I did any programming though, so any info I could remember is way outdated. They have even moved the list from its old location, so I can't even give you that. Maybe someone else on here knows where that list got moved to. Sorry if this was less than helpful. I do think the resources you are looking for exist. -Greg On May 19, 2011, at 12:41 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: "Freeman,Mike - TOSD-DITT-2" >> Date: May 19, 2011 10:30:09 PDT >> Subject: Object-oriented Programming Classes Questions >> > >> Hello. >> >> Although I have had some experience with languages implementing object-oriented programming, I've never taken classes on the subject. My question is this: what platforms are beginning object-oriented programming classes generally run on and what accessibility tools are needed for a totally-blind student? Is the best option to use a human reader? >> >> We use visual Studio 2008 around my work environment. Are there training courses on how to use it with JAWS, say, in C# programming? Are there e-texts on the subject approached from a screen-reader perspective? >> >> WE use Ruby around my work environment also. Any experiences with this language and platforms on which its interpreter runs from an accessibility perspective? >> >> And what's the situation viz. Java programming these days insofar as blind access is concerned? >> >> T I A! >> >> Mike >> >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Fri May 20 13:32:54 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 09:32:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4dd66d89.9247e60a.3079.4d24@mx.google.com> I to used it to learn math when I was growing up. It's so important so I think it would stay around! Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 12:30 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being changed, or it becoming obsilete. Nemeth Code will stay around! I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! Blessings, Joshua On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main > reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. > > On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >> To: NABS-L >> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What >> about the future of Nemeth? >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40studen ts.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmai l.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1375 / Virus Database: 1509/3647 - Release Date: 05/19/11 From steve.jacobson at visi.com Fri May 20 14:08:18 2011 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 09:08:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, I was a math major years ago and was extremely dependent upon the Nemeth Code. I give Dr. Nemeth and the Nemeth Code a lot of credit for my ability to have been able to work in the computer field. However, I do not believe that one can say anything that humans have invented is perfect. The code that I used and that we use today has gone through three or four fairly major revisions. Dr. Nemeth himself has been working on and completed a braille code called NUBS which establishes rules for integrating mathematical and computer braille into everyday litterary braille. This is somewhat similar to what is being attempted by the Unified English Braille code as well. While I believe that math notation has remained fairly stable over the years, there has been many changes in what is considered acceptable in print and some of these changes are very much a part of the educational process now. I therefore think it is fine for us to praise the Nemeth code as it has meant a lot to many of us, but I also think that we need to be open to the fact that things will change, not necessarily because a better way needs to be found, but because the way society uses print is changing and we have to keep up to some degree. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Thu, 19 May 2011 22:23:41 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >> To: NABS-L >> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What >> about the future of Nemeth? >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Fri May 20 14:48:40 2011 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 09:48:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] [gui-talk] Fwd: Object-oriented Programming Classes Questions In-Reply-To: <0CFF9229-A542-4E05-A3CE-DC114E81425A@panix.com> Message-ID: Mike, You have received many answers, but I don't know that the general question has been addressed. I do not have a lot of experiences with object oriented programming, but I've done a little with various integrated development environments and I have had to take a lot of classes on the job over the years. My approach has always been to try to learn in a class the same thing that the other students were learning. What this has meant for me is that working with someone else has often, but not always been a part of how I have operated. I have usually not required a dedicated reader. My approach has been to get as much of the materials as I can in an accessible format and then try to work with a co-worker taking the same class. I tend to take a lot of notes which include notes on how the person with whom I am working accomplishes tasks, even if it is with the mouse. I have found that if they are using software that is not familiar to me, it is easier for me to learn how to use the software itself after the fact with the knowledge I have gained as a result of working with someone else. Even if they use a mouse in a way that I would not do it, knowing how they do something helps me understand how I might go about it and it helps me understand what the instructor is teaching. If I am taking a class in something that uses software with which I am familiar, I would probably tend to work alone if that is what others were doing. In the situation that you are in where the language you learn might well be independent of the software you use, and if you have time, it might be worth trying to become familiar with the software ahead of time whether or not you work with a reader. As I understand it, there are still some rough edges to using Visual Studio with a screen reader but mostly it can be done. It is possible that you would do best to use whatever version works best with your screen reader even if it is different than what the class uses, but that would be a judgement call. I know that there are people using Visual Studio with JFW and to a lesser degree Window-Eyes on the PROGRAM-L list, so you probably should subscribe and ask there.The address to subscribe is program-l-request at freelists.org and put "subscribe" without the quotes in the subject line. I know that some people really put down the use of Integrated Development Environments, but they can really increase one's efficiency. However, you could find that other IDE's work better than Visual Studio for you depending upon the language. Some of the less expensive text editors like UltraEdit and the free text editor PSPAD have some useful IDE features. Still, a more complicated IDE such as Visual Studio has some nice features for laying out screens if you are needing to develope a GUI interface, and at least some versions have some features that can be helpful with a screen reader. I hope some of this is helpful, although I suspect you know most of it already. Good luck. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Thu, 19 May 2011 10:41:51 -0700, Mike Freeman wrote: >> From: "Freeman,Mike - TOSD-DITT-2" >> Date: May 19, 2011 10:30:09 PDT >> Subject: Object-oriented Programming Classes Questions >> >> Hello. >> >> Although I have had some experience with languages implementing object-oriented programming, I've never taken classes on the subject. My question is this: what platforms are beginning object-oriented programming classes generally run on and what accessibility tools are needed for a totally-blind student? Is the best option to use a human reader? >> >> We use visual Studio 2008 around my work environment. Are there training courses on how to use it with JAWS, say, in C# programming? Are there e- texts on the subject approached from a screen-reader perspective? >> >> WE use Ruby around my work environment also. Any experiences with this language and platforms on which its interpreter runs from an accessibility perspective? >> >> And what's the situation viz. Java programming these days insofar as blind access is concerned? >> >> T I A! >> >> Mike >> >> >_______________________________________________ >gui-talk mailing list >gui-talk at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for gui-talk: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri May 20 17:02:31 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 11:02:31 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve, From my very limited experience with Nemeth, it seems to me it wouldn't be all that hard to update or modify it as needed. Certainly DR. Nemeth has changed the code over time-I don't see why it isn't flexible enough to change as needed in the future. But if a better way is found (a big if, of which I'm quite skeptical) then by all means let's support that new way. But until such a thing happens, and I'm convinced it's *probably* not going to, my vote's behind nemeth all the way. Not to say yours isn't. Warmest regards, Kirt On 5/20/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: > Hi, > > I was a math major years ago and was extremely dependent upon the Nemeth > Code. I give Dr. Nemeth and the Nemeth Code a lot of credit for my ability > to > have been able to work in the computer field. However, I do not believe > that one can say anything that humans have invented is perfect. The code > that I > used and that we use today has gone through three or four fairly major > revisions. Dr. Nemeth himself has been working on and completed a braille > code > called NUBS which establishes rules for integrating mathematical and > computer braille into everyday litterary braille. This is somewhat similar > to what is being > attempted by the Unified English Braille code as well. While I believe that > math notation has remained fairly stable over the years, there has been many > changes in what is considered acceptable in print and some of these changes > are very much a part of the educational process now. I therefore think it > is > fine for us to praise the Nemeth code as it has meant a lot to many of us, > but I also think that we need to be open to the fact that things will > change, not > necessarily because a better way needs to be found, but because the way > society uses print is changing and we have to keep up to some degree. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Thu, 19 May 2011 22:23:41 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >>I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >>reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. > >>On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>> To: NABS-L >>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>> >>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. >>> What >>> about the future of Nemeth? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From ignasicambra at gmail.com Fri May 20 17:59:45 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 13:59:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Object-oriented Programming Classes Questions In-Reply-To: <4DD65E56.4000808@pcdesk.net> References: <624DF19A4EEFD647B87A8574625B3A3601053FF04AE3@spnvm1183.bud.bpa.gov> <0CFF9229-A542-4E05-A3CE-DC114E81425A@panix.com> <4DD65E56.4000808@pcdesk.net> Message-ID: <2D91F666-A7A1-45C2-A12E-898792EB932E@gmail.com> Has anybody tried the newest version of xCode? I would like to know if accessibility has improved since versions 3.x before I buy it. I'm tired of dealing with Interface Builder... IC On May 20, 2011, at 8:28 AM, Joseph C. Lininger wrote: > Generally beginning object oriented courses are done in Java. Sometimes > it will be C++, but it's almost always Java with all of the institutions > I know about. You will have no trouble if all you need to write are text > based applications. If you have to develop GUI apps, things get a little > more interesting because well, frankly, the access to them is just not > there. There have been efforts to make it work in the past, but yeah. > It's just not there at the moment. > > Sorry, but I can't really provide any assistance with visual studeo > since I don't use that particular environment. I'm more a unix guy > myself when it comes to programming. > Joe > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From k7uij at panix.com Fri May 20 18:09:41 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 11:09:41 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <55386C95-2E91-4C7A-B0EC-A46BB50B5DDC@gmail.com> References: <00c001cc169e$18833e80$4989bb80$@panix.com> <55386C95-2E91-4C7A-B0EC-A46BB50B5DDC@gmail.com> Message-ID: I never understood the rationale for a unified code. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 20, 2011, at 5:43, Greg Aikens wrote: > Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools can be improved and better used in general though. > > As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. > > -Greg > > > On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > >> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >> Nemeth Code will stay around! >> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> >> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >>> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>>> To: NABS-L >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>> >>>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What >>>> about the future of Nemeth? >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri May 20 18:10:53 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 11:10:53 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: <00b401cc1699$53396720$f9ac3560$@panix.com> References: <30830473-6911-469A-ADBB-1ECB048A64B1@gmail.com> <00b401cc1699$53396720$f9ac3560$@panix.com> Message-ID: I think there are valid points to what both Mike and Kirt are saying. However, I would think you could make that argument for any segment of the blindness community, and I think that as members of student divisions-( the population that TVIs serve) we should make more of an effort wherever possible to reach those j population On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > On the other hand, no matter how reasonably we present ourselves, our > philosophy in and of itself is such a threat to some TVIs that their ears > are closed. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 6:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB > > Darian and all, > I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission teachers. > (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, itinerate > teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind students, > and their parents, first impressions about blindness and thus they have a > huge influence on whatever expectations a student or parent develops about > what is possible as a blind person. I think we need to put a lot more > energy in to sincerely dialoguing with these teachers, especially the > reasonable ones who don't agree with us (I'm not saying all teachers who > disagree with us are reasonable), to improve our image and the way we're > presented to students. Because my state affiliate is pretty good at this, > my TVI, although she disagreed with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't > discourage me from coming to my own opinions and getting as much firsthand > experience with the Federation as I could. Even those blindness > professionals who disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a civil > and courteous manner, direct students to our organization. It happened with > me. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion is >> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what you may >> think needs improving?" >> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit of >> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a matter >> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, this >> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are also >> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the answers! >> Best, >> Darian >> >> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> I don't think we're doing enough with the middleschool/elementary >>> population. >>> We need to get the message out faster, to the younger kids. >>> >>> >>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >>> >>>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think about >>>> this question? >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" wrote: >>>> >>>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, and >>>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to communicate >>>>> our message in a way that will reach people through new technologies. >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%4 >>>>> 0gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertech >>>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >>> mail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> - Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude >> %40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri May 20 18:18:14 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 11:18:14 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <30830473-6911-469A-ADBB-1ECB048A64B1@gmail.com> <00b401cc1699$53396720$f9ac3560$@panix.com> Message-ID: ... hate it when posts get cut off... Anyway, we should make the connection with TVIs, TTBs (whatever term you like to use) where we can and tell our story, or so I think. Have any folks found success in doing so in your respective divisions? what are ways people think we can do a better job as students in the organization of inviting younger students to get involved? how did you (if you are a middle/high school student) decide to get involved? On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: > I think there are valid points to what both Mike and Kirt are saying. > However, I would think you could make that argument for any segment of > the blindness community, and I think that as members of student > divisions-( the population that TVIs serve) we should make more of an > effort wherever possible to reach those j population > > On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> On the other hand, no matter how reasonably we present ourselves, our >> philosophy in and of itself is such a threat to some TVIs that their ears >> are closed. >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 6:57 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB >> >> Darian and all, >> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission teachers. >> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, itinerate >> teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind >> students, >> and their parents, first impressions about blindness and thus they have a >> huge influence on whatever expectations a student or parent develops >> about >> what is possible as a blind person. I think we need to put a lot more >> energy in to sincerely dialoguing with these teachers, especially the >> reasonable ones who don't agree with us (I'm not saying all teachers who >> disagree with us are reasonable), to improve our image and the way we're >> presented to students. Because my state affiliate is pretty good at >> this, >> my TVI, although she disagreed with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't >> discourage me from coming to my own opinions and getting as much >> firsthand >> experience with the Federation as I could. Even those blindness >> professionals who disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a >> civil >> and courteous manner, direct students to our organization. It happened >> with >> me. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion is >>> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what you may >>> think needs improving?" >>> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit of >>> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a matter >>> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, this >>> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are also >>> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the answers! >>> Best, >>> Darian >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> I don't think we're doing enough with the middleschool/elementary >>>> population. >>>> We need to get the message out faster, to the younger kids. >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think about >>>>> this question? >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, and >>>>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to communicate >>>>>> our message in a way that will reach people through new technologies. >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%4 >>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertech >>>>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >>>> mail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> - Robert Byrne >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude >>> %40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri May 20 20:01:16 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C2ris=20Nusbaum?=) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 16:01:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate Message-ID: <4dd6c89e.4969e50a.463c.ffff89f3@mx.google.com> I=20don't=20know=20about=20the=20Braille=20Sense's=20operating=20system,=20= but=20I'll=20 ask=20my=20friend=20who=20has=20one.=20=20As=20far=20as=20the=20BN=20syncin= g=20to=20Windows=207=20 computers,=20I'm=20not=20sure=20about=20that=20either.=20=20But=20I'd=20ass= ume=20I=20 would=20have=20the=20same=20problem=20as=20with=20XP=20or=20Vista,=20being= =20that=20the=20 Apex=20is=20running=20Windows=20CE=206.0. =20Chris "A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abilit= ies=20motto) ---=20Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Jorge=20Paez=20=20wrote= : =20Hi=20all: =20Just=20wondering, =20as=20far=20as=20note=20takers, =20which=20one=20in=20your=20opinion=20is=20the=20best=20or=20seems=20to=20= be=20the=20 industry=20leader? =20If=20so=20why? =20Which=20one=20seems=20to=20have=20the=20most=20feature-rich=20interphase= ? =20Thanks, =20Jorge =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz =20ydude%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert =20echjorgepaez%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu =20sbaum%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert echjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri May 20 20:01:11 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C2ris=20Nusbaum?=) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 16:01:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Samson Haven Message-ID: <4dd6c898.4969e50a.463c.ffff89ec@mx.google.com> It doesn't, but if you get call waiting, it will beep. Hit the call button and say "Hello?" The Haven is great though as far as accessibility in calls, text messaging, and other features. But if you want a smartphone, the Haven's not for you. For that purpose, I'd get the iPhone. But if you just want a simple accessible phone, I would get the Haven. I have the Haven, so you can email me offlist at dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com if you have any more questions about it. Hope this helps! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serena Cucco" I'm in 7th grade in accelerated classes. Here in Maryland, they let kids who qualify take high school credit algebra courses in 7th and 8th grade, but only if you qualify when taking the Algebra Readiness Test. I'm not taking Algebra 1 this year, but I will next year. Fun! I'm being sarcastic there. Some 7th graders took the 9th grade algebra HSA's this week, by the way. Not me! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: "dreicer, zachary" From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri May 20 20:01:38 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C2ris=20Nusbaum?=) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 16:01:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government NotComplyingwith Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates Message-ID: <4dd6c8b4.4969e50a.463c.ffff8a05@mx.google.com> I'm guessing it depends on what you're using: a screen reader, a notetaker, a smartphone? Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Brice Smith wrote: :) Let the hair-splitting begin. On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: I can make reservations on the site; it's just terribly awkward and one has to poke around a bit and realize that as you add stuff, the page expands. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:54 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government NotComplying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates Okay... Can you explain? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" wrote: Begin forwarded message: From: David Andrews cdanielsen at nfb.org Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates National Federation of the Blind Expresses Outrage, Demands Swift Action Baltimore, Maryland (May 19, 2011): A study that has just been published online in the journal Government Information Quarterly has found that of one-hundred Web sites operated by federal government agencies, over 90 percent do not comply with government accessibility guidelines and likely cannot be used by people who are blind or have other perceptual or motor disabilities. The study, entitled "Accessibility of U.S. federal government home pages: Section 508 compliance and site accessibility statements" and coauthored by Doctoral Student Abiodun Olalere and Professor Jonathan Lazar of Towson University, found that the home pages of over 90 percent of the Web sites they evaluated contained violations of the government's own guidelines for compliance with Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. That law requires that government electronic and information technology be accessible to people with disabilities. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "Blind Americans are outraged that the government is failing to comply with its own guidelines to make government information and services available to citizens with disabilities. Given the clear legal requirements of Section 508 and the fact that use of the Internet is critical to education, employment, access to government benefits and services, and all other aspects of modern life, there is no excuse for failure to follow and rigorously enforce these guidelines. We demand that officials in all branches of government take immediate steps to bring all federal Web sites into compliance with the law, and we pledge to continue to hold the federal government accountable if it continues to treat the blind and others with disabilities as second-class citizens." The study evaluated the home pages of one-hundred government Web sites across all three branches of the federal government, including executive agencies, independent agencies, government corporations (e.g. Amtrak), the United States Congress, the United States Supreme Court, United States federal courts, and "open government" Web sites like www.usajobs.gov and www.ready.gov. The authors utilized both automated-software tools and human-expert inspections on each home page, and determined that over 90 percent of the home pages were not in compliance with the Section 508 regulations. Most of the accessibility problems were common ones that are easily resolved, such as unlabeled images, mislabeled forms or tables, videos without captioning, flash without any textual equivalents, and lack of keyboard equivalents for mouse-over actions. The authors noted that this is not a problem unique to one agency. Similar problems occur on multiple agency Web sites, and the core problem is the lack of consistent compliance activities and enforcement throughout the federal government. The study makes several recommendations to increase compliance, including improved resources on complying with the guidelines; better documentation of best practices; publishing of information about which agencies are compliant and noncompliant with accessibility guidelines as part of the open government dashboard; and better enforcement and monitoring procedures within government agencies, such as the loss of Web-posting privileges for repeatedly posting inaccessible content. ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. _______________________________________________ gui-talk mailing list gui-talk at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for gui-talk: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/compute rte chjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydud e%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert echjo rgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecab le.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smi th319%40gmail.com -- Brice Smith North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri May 20 20:01:31 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C2ris=20Nusbaum?=) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 16:01:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Message-ID: <4dd6c8ac.4969e50a.463c.ffff89fe@mx.google.com> Joshua, Agreed! The NFB song "Ode to the Code" comes to mind: "Braille is here, Braille is here, Braille is here to stay." * Smile! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" wrote: I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What about the future of Nemeth? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri May 20 20:01:34 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C2ris=20Nusbaum?=) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 16:01:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] question for david evans Message-ID: <4dd6c8af.4969e50a.463c.ffff8a00@mx.google.com> He's on both the NFB Talk list and the Blind Talk list. The email address for NFB Talk is: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org and the address for the Blind Talk list is: blindtlk at nfbnet.org. However, I'm not sure if you're able to post something to those lists if you're not a member. That might be a question for Dave Andrews. I have David Evans's email address, but I'm not going to give it out without his permission. Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez Wow, Amtrak? That's one of the important ones that blind people would need to access, in my opinion. Probably blind people in urban areas use Amtrak all the time. Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: Begin forwarded message: From: David Andrews cdanielsen at nfb.org Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates National Federation of the Blind Expresses Outrage, Demands Swift Action Baltimore, Maryland (May 19, 2011): A study that has just been published online in the journal Government Information Quarterly has found that of one-hundred Web sites operated by federal government agencies, over 90 percent do not comply with government accessibility guidelines and likely cannot be used by people who are blind or have other perceptual or motor disabilities. The study, entitled "Accessibility of U.S. federal government home pages: Section 508 compliance and site accessibility statements" and coauthored by Doctoral Student Abiodun Olalere and Professor Jonathan Lazar of Towson University, found that the home pages of over 90 percent of the Web sites they evaluated contained violations of the government's own guidelines for compliance with Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. That law requires that government electronic and information technology be accessible to people with disabilities. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "Blind Americans are outraged that the government is failing to comply with its own guidelines to make government information and services available to citizens with disabilities. Given the clear legal requirements of Section 508 and the fact that use of the Internet is critical to education, employment, access to government benefits and services, and all other aspects of modern life, there is no excuse for failure to follow and rigorously enforce these guidelines. We demand that officials in all branches of government take immediate steps to bring all federal Web sites into compliance with the law, and we pledge to continue to hold the federal government accountable if it continues to treat the blind and others with disabilities as second-class citizens." The study evaluated the home pages of one-hundred government Web sites across all three branches of the federal government, including executive agencies, independent agencies, government corporations (e.g. Amtrak), the United States Congress, the United States Supreme Court, United States federal courts, and "open government" Web sites like www.usajobs.gov and www.ready.gov. The authors utilized both automated-software tools and human-expert inspections on each home page, and determined that over 90 percent of the home pages were not in compliance with the Section 508 regulations. Most of the accessibility problems were common ones that are easily resolved, such as unlabeled images, mislabeled forms or tables, videos without captioning, flash without any textual equivalents, and lack of keyboard equivalents for mouse-over actions. The authors noted that this is not a problem unique to one agency. Similar problems occur on multiple agency Web sites, and the core problem is the lack of consistent compliance activities and enforcement throughout the federal government. The study makes several recommendations to increase compliance, including improved resources on complying with the guidelines; better documentation of best practices; publishing of information about which agencies are compliant and noncompliant with accessibility guidelines as part of the open government dashboard; and better enforcement and monitoring procedures within government agencies, such as the loss of Web-posting privileges for repeatedly posting inaccessible content. ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. _______________________________________________ gui-talk mailing list gui-talk at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for gui-talk: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/compute rtechjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri May 20 20:01:26 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C2ris=20Nusbaum?=) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 16:01:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB Message-ID: <4dd6c8a8.4969e50a.463c.ffff89fb@mx.google.com> I agree completely, Kirt! Great points! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion is the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what you may think needs improving?" I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit of mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a matter that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, this in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are also very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the answers! Best, Darian On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: I don't think we're doing enough with the middleschool/elementary population. We need to get the message out faster, to the younger kids. On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think about this question? Sent from my iPhone On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" wrote: I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, and whether or not we're doing anything to address how to communicate our message in a way that will reach people through new technologies. Thanks. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert echjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb %40gmail.com -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri May 20 20:01:22 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C2ris=20Nusbaum?=) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 16:01:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] MS Excel and accessibility Message-ID: <4dd6c8a4.4969e50a.463c.ffff89f8@mx.google.com> Steve, Thanks for the great advice! I'll definitely try that. I have made graphs a lot before and still am when needed. I read graphs and graphics more than I make them in math and science, so I have a pretty good handle on what a graph looks like. However, tactile graphics isn't my strongest area so I'm working with my TVI on that. I'll forward your email to my TVI and see what she thinks of it. Again, thanks! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" Like me? I'm in middle school! * Smile! I agree with you, Jorge. And that goes for sighted people as well as blind students. Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez wrote: I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, and whether or not we're doing anything to address how to communicate our message in a way that will reach people through new technologies. Thanks. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert echjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri May 20 20:01:42 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C2ris=20Nusbaum?=) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 16:01:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying withWeb Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates Message-ID: <4dd6c8b8.4969e50a.463c.ffff8a07@mx.google.com> Oh... here we go again! The government not complying with their own laws! Hey lawmakers, if you're trying to convince us that some law you're trying to pass is so great, follow the same law! Is that too much to ask? I was talking about this at the LAW Program with Mark Riccobono, and he was being sarcastic when he said this, but this is how rediculous this whole thing is. Here's what he said: "But we wouldn't want our great lawmakers to have to carry the overly heavy burden of actually following the laws that they make us follow. That's just too much of a burden for them to carry." Rediculous, rediculous, rediculous'' and did I say rediculous! Thank you NFB and Dr. Maurer for saying what needs to be said and holding the government accountable. Dr. Maurer said it perfectly. * Sigh! All right, here we go! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez cdanielsen at nfb.org Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates National Federation of the Blind Expresses Outrage, Demands Swift Action Baltimore, Maryland (May 19, 2011): A study that has just been published online in the journal Government Information Quarterly has found that of one-hundred Web sites operated by federal government agencies, over 90 percent do not comply with government accessibility guidelines and likely cannot be used by people who are blind or have other perceptual or motor disabilities. The study, entitled "Accessibility of U.S. federal government home pages: Section 508 compliance and site accessibility statements" and coauthored by Doctoral Student Abiodun Olalere and Professor Jonathan Lazar of Towson University, found that the home pages of over 90 percent of the Web sites they evaluated contained violations of the government's own guidelines for compliance with Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. That law requires that government electronic and information technology be accessible to people with disabilities. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "Blind Americans are outraged that the government is failing to comply with its own guidelines to make government information and services available to citizens with disabilities. Given the clear legal requirements of Section 508 and the fact that use of the Internet is critical to education, employment, access to government benefits and services, and all other aspects of modern life, there is no excuse for failure to follow and rigorously enforce these guidelines. We demand that officials in all branches of government take immediate steps to bring all federal Web sites into compliance with the law, and we pledge to continue to hold the federal government accountable if it continues to treat the blind and others with disabilities as second-class citizens." The study evaluated the home pages of one-hundred government Web sites across all three branches of the federal government, including executive agencies, independent agencies, government corporations (e.g. Amtrak), the United States Congress, the United States Supreme Court, United States federal courts, and "open government" Web sites like www.usajobs.gov and www.ready.gov. The authors utilized both automated-software tools and human-expert inspections on each home page, and determined that over 90 percent of the home pages were not in compliance with the Section 508 regulations. Most of the accessibility problems were common ones that are easily resolved, such as unlabeled images, mislabeled forms or tables, videos without captioning, flash without any textual equivalents, and lack of keyboard equivalents for mouse-over actions. The authors noted that this is not a problem unique to one agency. Similar problems occur on multiple agency Web sites, and the core problem is the lack of consistent compliance activities and enforcement throughout the federal government. The study makes several recommendations to increase compliance, including improved resources on complying with the guidelines; better documentation of best practices; publishing of information about which agencies are compliant and noncompliant with accessibility guidelines as part of the open government dashboard; and better enforcement and monitoring procedures within government agencies, such as the loss of Web-posting privileges for repeatedly posting inaccessible content. ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. _______________________________________________ gui-talk mailing list gui-talk at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for gui-talk: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/compute rtechjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri May 20 20:01:40 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C2ris=20Nusbaum?=) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 16:01:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government NotComplying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates Message-ID: <4dd6c8b6.4969e50a.463c.ffff8a06@mx.google.com> Huh? Two different things? Ease of access (accessibility,) or ease of use. Isn't that what we're talking about, being able to use it independently with a screen reader? Isn't that access? Maybe you (Mike) or someone else can explain this to me. Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" wrote: Begin forwarded message: From: David Andrews cdanielsen at nfb.org Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates National Federation of the Blind Expresses Outrage, Demands Swift Action Baltimore, Maryland (May 19, 2011): A study that has just been published online in the journal Government Information Quarterly has found that of one-hundred Web sites operated by federal government agencies, over 90 percent do not comply with government accessibility guidelines and likely cannot be used by people who are blind or have other perceptual or motor disabilities. The study, entitled "Accessibility of U.S. federal government home pages: Section 508 compliance and site accessibility statements" and coauthored by Doctoral Student Abiodun Olalere and Professor Jonathan Lazar of Towson University, found that the home pages of over 90 percent of the Web sites they evaluated contained violations of the government's own guidelines for compliance with Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. That law requires that government electronic and information technology be accessible to people with disabilities. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "Blind Americans are outraged that the government is failing to comply with its own guidelines to make government information and services available to citizens with disabilities. Given the clear legal requirements of Section 508 and the fact that use of the Internet is critical to education, employment, access to government benefits and services, and all other aspects of modern life, there is no excuse for failure to follow and rigorously enforce these guidelines. We demand that officials in all branches of government take immediate steps to bring all federal Web sites into compliance with the law, and we pledge to continue to hold the federal government accountable if it continues to treat the blind and others with disabilities as second-class citizens." The study evaluated the home pages of one-hundred government Web sites across all three branches of the federal government, including executive agencies, independent agencies, government corporations (e.g. Amtrak), the United States Congress, the United States Supreme Court, United States federal courts, and "open government" Web sites like www.usajobs.gov and www.ready.gov. The authors utilized both automated-software tools and human-expert inspections on each home page, and determined that over 90 percent of the home pages were not in compliance with the Section 508 regulations. Most of the accessibility problems were common ones that are easily resolved, such as unlabeled images, mislabeled forms or tables, videos without captioning, flash without any textual equivalents, and lack of keyboard equivalents for mouse-over actions. The authors noted that this is not a problem unique to one agency. Similar problems occur on multiple agency Web sites, and the core problem is the lack of consistent compliance activities and enforcement throughout the federal government. The study makes several recommendations to increase compliance, including improved resources on complying with the guidelines; better documentation of best practices; publishing of information about which agencies are compliant and noncompliant with accessibility guidelines as part of the open government dashboard; and better enforcement and monitoring procedures within government agencies, such as the loss of Web-posting privileges for repeatedly posting inaccessible content. ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. _______________________________________________ gui-talk mailing list gui-talk at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for gui-talk: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/compute rte chjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydud e%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert echjo rgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri May 20 20:01:18 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C2ris=20Nusbaum?=) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 16:01:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Where's the April Conference Call Audio Message-ID: <4dd6c8a0.4969e50a.463c.ffff89f5@mx.google.com> Ooh, I'd love to listen to that call, if we have the audio. I know David had some PC issues, but I thought he had them resolved by now. * Smile! I'll definitely be on the call on Sunday. See you all then! It's sounding like a great one for my first call! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tina Hansen" Message-ID: What I read in some of the comments was that Dr. Nemeth would be surprised to hear about people thinking of changing his code. What I was trying to say is that even the Nemeth code has changed over time and may need to change again. I was not saying that I think the code needs to change to something other than Nemeth, necessarily, but that we have to be open to the fact that things do change. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Fri, 20 May 2011 11:02:31 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >Steve, > From my very limited experience with Nemeth, it seems to me it >wouldn't be all that hard to update or modify it as needed. Certainly >DR. Nemeth has changed the code over time-I don't see why it isn't >flexible enough to change as needed in the future. But if a better >way is found (a big if, of which I'm quite skeptical) then by all >means let's support that new way. But until such a thing happens, and >I'm convinced it's *probably* not going to, my vote's behind nemeth >all the way. Not to say yours isn't. > Warmest regards, >Kirt >On 5/20/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I was a math major years ago and was extremely dependent upon the Nemeth >> Code. I give Dr. Nemeth and the Nemeth Code a lot of credit for my ability >> to >> have been able to work in the computer field. However, I do not believe >> that one can say anything that humans have invented is perfect. The code >> that I >> used and that we use today has gone through three or four fairly major >> revisions. Dr. Nemeth himself has been working on and completed a braille >> code >> called NUBS which establishes rules for integrating mathematical and >> computer braille into everyday litterary braille. This is somewhat similar >> to what is being >> attempted by the Unified English Braille code as well. While I believe that >> math notation has remained fairly stable over the years, there has been many >> changes in what is considered acceptable in print and some of these changes >> are very much a part of the educational process now. I therefore think it >> is >> fine for us to praise the Nemeth code as it has meant a lot to many of us, >> but I also think that we need to be open to the fact that things will >> change, not >> necessarily because a better way needs to be found, but because the way >> society uses print is changing and we have to keep up to some degree. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Thu, 19 May 2011 22:23:41 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >>>I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >>>reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >> >>>On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>>> To: NABS-L >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>> >>>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. >>>> What >>>> about the future of Nemeth? >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri May 20 20:12:30 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 14:12:30 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <30830473-6911-469A-ADBB-1ECB048A64B1@gmail.com> <00b401cc1699$53396720$f9ac3560$@panix.com> Message-ID: Mike, Very true. But, from my experience, a lot of that boils down to how we present our philosophy. I've heard comments from some TVIS like "they wouldn't even listen to me", "they acted like I didn't even matter", "they ignored everything I said", etc. While I'm not denying our philosophy places us in conflict with some TVIS (not as many as some people like to think), I think if we present our philosophy in a level-headed, civil, agreeable manner, even those who disagree with us will be more compelled to do so agreeably. Making the conflict less vitriolic and bitter would do a lot to improve the way we're presented by TVIS, even many of the TVIS who don't agree with our philosophy. That's all I'm saying-I'm not saying we compromise the tenets we hold dear, I'm not saying we change our philosophy, only that we respect and sincerely make an effort to at least listen to the philosophies of others without letting emotions get in the way. Warmly, Kirt On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: > ... hate it when posts get cut off... > Anyway, we should make the connection with TVIs, TTBs (whatever term > you like to use) where we can and tell our story, or so I think. Have > any folks found success in doing so in your respective divisions? > > what are ways people think we can do a better job as students in the > organization of inviting younger students to get involved? how did you > (if you are a middle/high school student) decide to get involved? > > On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> I think there are valid points to what both Mike and Kirt are saying. >> However, I would think you could make that argument for any segment of >> the blindness community, and I think that as members of student >> divisions-( the population that TVIs serve) we should make more of an >> effort wherever possible to reach those j population >> >> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> On the other hand, no matter how reasonably we present ourselves, our >>> philosophy in and of itself is such a threat to some TVIs that their ears >>> are closed. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Kirt Manwaring >>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 6:57 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB >>> >>> Darian and all, >>> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission teachers. >>> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, itinerate >>> teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind >>> students, >>> and their parents, first impressions about blindness and thus they have a >>> huge influence on whatever expectations a student or parent develops >>> about >>> what is possible as a blind person. I think we need to put a lot more >>> energy in to sincerely dialoguing with these teachers, especially the >>> reasonable ones who don't agree with us (I'm not saying all teachers who >>> disagree with us are reasonable), to improve our image and the way we're >>> presented to students. Because my state affiliate is pretty good at >>> this, >>> my TVI, although she disagreed with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't >>> discourage me from coming to my own opinions and getting as much >>> firsthand >>> experience with the Federation as I could. Even those blindness >>> professionals who disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a >>> civil >>> and courteous manner, direct students to our organization. It happened >>> with >>> me. >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion is >>>> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what you may >>>> think needs improving?" >>>> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit of >>>> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a matter >>>> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, this >>>> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are also >>>> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the answers! >>>> Best, >>>> Darian >>>> >>>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>> I don't think we're doing enough with the middleschool/elementary >>>>> population. >>>>> We need to get the message out faster, to the younger kids. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think about >>>>>> this question? >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, and >>>>>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to communicate >>>>>>> our message in a way that will reach people through new technologies. >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%4 >>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertech >>>>>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >>>>> mail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Darian Smith >>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>> >>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>> >>>> - Robert Byrne >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude >>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> — Robert Byrne >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri May 20 20:18:47 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 14:18:47 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve, Here here. Just out of curiosity, how much has the code changed over time? Have the changes mostly been aditions to cover new concepts in mathematics? Or have they been modifications of existing code? A combination of the two? Best, Kirt On 5/20/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: > What I read in some of the comments was that Dr. Nemeth would be surprised > to hear about people thinking of changing his code. What I was trying to > say > is that even the Nemeth code has changed over time and may need to change > again. I was not saying that I think the code needs to change to something > other than Nemeth, necessarily, but that we have to be open to the fact that > things do change. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Fri, 20 May 2011 11:02:31 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >>Steve, >> From my very limited experience with Nemeth, it seems to me it >>wouldn't be all that hard to update or modify it as needed. Certainly >>DR. Nemeth has changed the code over time-I don't see why it isn't >>flexible enough to change as needed in the future. But if a better >>way is found (a big if, of which I'm quite skeptical) then by all >>means let's support that new way. But until such a thing happens, and >>I'm convinced it's *probably* not going to, my vote's behind nemeth >>all the way. Not to say yours isn't. >> Warmest regards, >>Kirt > >>On 5/20/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> I was a math major years ago and was extremely dependent upon the Nemeth >>> Code. I give Dr. Nemeth and the Nemeth Code a lot of credit for my >>> ability >>> to >>> have been able to work in the computer field. However, I do not believe >>> that one can say anything that humans have invented is perfect. The code >>> that I >>> used and that we use today has gone through three or four fairly major >>> revisions. Dr. Nemeth himself has been working on and completed a >>> braille >>> code >>> called NUBS which establishes rules for integrating mathematical and >>> computer braille into everyday litterary braille. This is somewhat >>> similar >>> to what is being >>> attempted by the Unified English Braille code as well. While I believe >>> that >>> math notation has remained fairly stable over the years, there has been >>> many >>> changes in what is considered acceptable in print and some of these >>> changes >>> are very much a part of the educational process now. I therefore think >>> it >>> is >>> fine for us to praise the Nemeth code as it has meant a lot to many of >>> us, >>> but I also think that we need to be open to the fact that things will >>> change, not >>> necessarily because a better way needs to be found, but because the way >>> society uses print is changing and we have to keep up to some degree. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> On Thu, 19 May 2011 22:23:41 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> >>>>I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >>>>reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >>> >>>>On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>>>> To: NABS-L >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>>> >>>>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. >>>>> What >>>>> about the future of Nemeth? >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri May 20 20:19:07 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C2ris=20Nusbaum?=) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 16:19:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Message-ID: <4dd6cccc.d8a3e60a.73f8.51eb@mx.google.com> Hi Greg, My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are different symbols for different operations in math than they are in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Aikens wrote: I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What about the future of Nemeth? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri May 20 20:21:25 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 14:21:25 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: <4dd6c8a8.4969e50a.463c.ffff89fb@mx.google.com> References: <4dd6c8a8.4969e50a.463c.ffff89fb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Chris, It's awesome you're on here. You're a case study of why it's good for students to get on board while they're young. Just out of curiosity, how were you introduced to the Federation? On 5/20/11, Âris Nusbaum wrote: > I agree completely, Kirt! Great points! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:57:10 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB > > Darian and all, > I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission > teachers. > (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, > itinerate > teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind > students, and their parents, first impressions about blindness > and > thus they have a huge influence on whatever expectations a > student or > parent develops about what is possible as a blind person. I > think we > need to put a lot more energy in to sincerely dialoguing with > these > teachers, especially the reasonable ones who don't agree with us > (I'm > not saying all teachers who disagree with us are reasonable), to > improve our image and the way we're presented to students. > Because my > state affiliate is pretty good at this, my TVI, although she > disagreed > with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't discourage me from coming > to > my own opinions and getting as much firsthand experience with the > Federation as I could. Even those blindness professionals who > disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a civil and > courteous > manner, direct students to our organization. It happened with > me. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: > You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion > is > the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what > you may > think needs improving?" > I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit > of > mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a > matter > that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, > this > in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are > also > very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the > answers! > Best, > Darian > > On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > I don't think we're doing enough with the > middleschool/elementary > population. > We need to get the message out faster, > to the younger kids. > > > On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: > > Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think > about this > question? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" > wrote: > > I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, > and > whether or not we're doing anything to address how to > communicate our > message in a way that will reach people through new > technologies. > Thanks. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb > %40gmail.com > > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From z.dreicer at emissives.com Fri May 20 20:22:56 2011 From: z.dreicer at emissives.com (dreicer, zachary) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 14:22:56 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] logic Message-ID: cool! Sent=20from=20my=20BRAILLENOTE=20Apex =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20=C2ris=20Nusbaum=20 Message-ID: The first Nemeth Code that I was exposed to in the late 1950's, the number sign was not used at all, just lower cell numbers. Also, punctuation was preceeded by a dot 6. I have not done an exhaustive study on this, but my impression is that the code has been changed more to make things clearer than because of changes in the symbols used in math. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Fri, 20 May 2011 14:18:47 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >Steve, > Here here. Just out of curiosity, how much has the code changed >over time? Have the changes mostly been aditions to cover new >concepts in mathematics? Or have they been modifications of existing >code? A combination of the two? > Best, >Kirt >On 5/20/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> What I read in some of the comments was that Dr. Nemeth would be surprised >> to hear about people thinking of changing his code. What I was trying to >> say >> is that even the Nemeth code has changed over time and may need to change >> again. I was not saying that I think the code needs to change to something >> other than Nemeth, necessarily, but that we have to be open to the fact that >> things do change. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Fri, 20 May 2011 11:02:31 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >>>Steve, >>> From my very limited experience with Nemeth, it seems to me it >>>wouldn't be all that hard to update or modify it as needed. Certainly >>>DR. Nemeth has changed the code over time-I don't see why it isn't >>>flexible enough to change as needed in the future. But if a better >>>way is found (a big if, of which I'm quite skeptical) then by all >>>means let's support that new way. But until such a thing happens, and >>>I'm convinced it's *probably* not going to, my vote's behind nemeth >>>all the way. Not to say yours isn't. >>> Warmest regards, >>>Kirt >> >>>On 5/20/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I was a math major years ago and was extremely dependent upon the Nemeth >>>> Code. I give Dr. Nemeth and the Nemeth Code a lot of credit for my >>>> ability >>>> to >>>> have been able to work in the computer field. However, I do not believe >>>> that one can say anything that humans have invented is perfect. The code >>>> that I >>>> used and that we use today has gone through three or four fairly major >>>> revisions. Dr. Nemeth himself has been working on and completed a >>>> braille >>>> code >>>> called NUBS which establishes rules for integrating mathematical and >>>> computer braille into everyday litterary braille. This is somewhat >>>> similar >>>> to what is being >>>> attempted by the Unified English Braille code as well. While I believe >>>> that >>>> math notation has remained fairly stable over the years, there has been >>>> many >>>> changes in what is considered acceptable in print and some of these >>>> changes >>>> are very much a part of the educational process now. I therefore think >>>> it >>>> is >>>> fine for us to praise the Nemeth code as it has meant a lot to many of >>>> us, >>>> but I also think that we need to be open to the fact that things will >>>> change, not >>>> necessarily because a better way needs to be found, but because the way >>>> society uses print is changing and we have to keep up to some degree. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> >>>> On Thu, 19 May 2011 22:23:41 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> >>>>>I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >>>>>reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >>>> >>>>>On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>>>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>>>>> To: NABS-L >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>>>> >>>>>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. >>>>>> What >>>>>> about the future of Nemeth? >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From k7uij at panix.com Fri May 20 21:31:48 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 14:31:48 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government NotComplying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates In-Reply-To: <4dd6c8b6.4969e50a.463c.ffff8a06@mx.google.com> References: <4dd6c8b6.4969e50a.463c.ffff8a06@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4518AC59-E142-4E48-8D60-0BAC6C06200E@panix.com> Some websites are technically accessible but require some savvy rather than being simple and straightforward. Unfortunately, blind people must learn both website layout and how to use their screen-reader's features to advantage. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 20, 2011, at 13:01, Âris Nusbaum wrote: > Huh? Two different things? Ease of access (accessibility,) or ease of use. Isn't that what we're talking about, being able to use it independently with a screen reader? Isn't that access? Maybe you (Mike) or someone else can explain this to me. > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:51:57 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government NotComplying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates > > Actually, AMTRAK's site is accessible -- it just isn't useable -- they're > two different things. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Jorge Paez > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying > with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates > > What screenreader are you using? > > On May 19, 2011, at 10:01 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > > This surprises me-not that I'm a government internet expert, but I've > seen a lot of their sites and the only one that really gave me any > trouble was Amtrak. > > On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: David Andrews Date: May 19, 2011 8:22:40 PM EDT > To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org > Subject: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web > Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates > Reply-To: "Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk > Mailing List" > > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > > CONTACT: > Chris Danielsen > Director of Public Relations > National Federation of the Blind > (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 > (410) 262-1281 (Cell) > cdanielsen at nfb.org > > Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site Accessibility > Requirements, Study Indicates > > National Federation of the Blind Expresses Outrage, Demands Swift > Action > > Baltimore, Maryland (May 19, 2011): A study that has just been > published online in the journal > Government > Information Quarterly has found that of one-hundred Web sites > operated by federal government agencies, over 90 percent do not > comply with government accessibility guidelines and likely cannot > be used by people who are blind or have other perceptual or motor > disabilities. The study, entitled "Accessibility of U.S. federal > government home pages: Section > 508 compliance and site accessibility statements" and coauthored by > Doctoral Student Abiodun Olalere and Professor Jonathan Lazar of > Towson University, found that the home pages of over 90 percent of > the Web sites they evaluated contained violations of the > government's own guidelines for compliance with Section 508 of the > Rehabilitation Act of 1973. That law requires that government > electronic and information technology be accessible to people with > disabilities. > > Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, > said: > "Blind Americans are outraged that the government is failing to > comply with its own guidelines to make government information and > services available to citizens with disabilities. Given the clear > legal requirements of Section 508 and the fact that use of the > Internet is critical to education, employment, access to government > benefits and services, and all other aspects of modern life, there > is no excuse for failure to follow and rigorously enforce these > guidelines. We demand that officials in all branches of government > take immediate steps to bring all federal Web sites into compliance > with the law, and we pledge to continue to hold the federal > government accountable if it continues to treat the blind and others > with disabilities as second-class citizens." > > The study evaluated the home pages of one-hundred government Web > sites across all three branches of the federal government, > including executive agencies, independent agencies, government > corporations (e.g. Amtrak), the United States Congress, the United > States Supreme Court, United States federal courts, and "open > government" Web sites like www.usajobs.gov > and www.ready.gov. The authors utilized both > automated-software tools and human-expert inspections on each home > page, and determined that over 90 percent of the home pages were > not in compliance with the Section 508 regulations. > > Most of the accessibility problems were common ones that are easily > resolved, such as unlabeled images, mislabeled forms or tables, > videos without captioning, flash without any textual equivalents, > and lack of keyboard equivalents for mouse-over actions. The > authors noted that this is not a problem unique to one agency. > Similar problems occur on multiple agency Web sites, and the core > problem is the lack of consistent compliance activities and enforcement > throughout the federal government. > > The study makes several recommendations to increase compliance, > including improved resources on complying with the guidelines; > better documentation of best practices; publishing of information > about which agencies are compliant and noncompliant with > accessibility guidelines as part of the open government dashboard; > and better enforcement and monitoring procedures within government > agencies, such as the loss of Web-posting privileges for repeatedly > posting inaccessible content. > > > ### > > > About the National Federation of the Blind > > With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind > is the largest and most influential membership organization of > blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's > lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and > programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the > leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the > nation's blind. In January > 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan > Institute, the first research and training center in the United > States for the blind led by the blind. > > > _______________________________________________ > gui-talk mailing list > gui-talk at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > gui-talk: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/compute > rte > chjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydud > e%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjo > rgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From k7uij at panix.com Fri May 20 21:33:21 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 14:33:21 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complyingwith Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates In-Reply-To: <4dd6c8a9.4969e50a.463c.ffff89fc@mx.google.com> References: <4dd6c8a9.4969e50a.463c.ffff89fc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <65842178-AA7E-4E69-BAE3-566EFED845C2@panix.com> It's doable but awkward. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 20, 2011, at 13:01, Âris Nusbaum wrote: > Wow, Amtrak? That's one of the important ones that blind people would need to access, in my opinion. Probably blind people in urban areas use Amtrak all the time. > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 20:01:33 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complyingwith Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates > > This surprises me-not that I'm a government internet expert, but I've > seen a lot of their sites and the only one that really gave me any > trouble was Amtrak. > > On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: David Andrews Date: May 19, 2011 8:22:40 PM EDT > To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org > Subject: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site > Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates > Reply-To: "Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk Mailing > List" > > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > > CONTACT: > Chris Danielsen > Director of Public Relations > National Federation of the Blind > (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 > (410) 262-1281 (Cell) > cdanielsen at nfb.org > > Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site > Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates > > National Federation of the Blind Expresses Outrage, Demands Swift Action > > Baltimore, Maryland (May 19, 2011): A study that has just been published > online in the journal > Government > Information Quarterly has found that of one-hundred Web sites operated by > federal government agencies, over 90 percent do not comply with > government accessibility guidelines and likely cannot be used by people > who are blind or have other perceptual or motor disabilities. The study, > entitled "Accessibility of U.S. federal government home pages: Section > 508 compliance and site accessibility statements" and coauthored by > Doctoral Student Abiodun Olalere and Professor Jonathan Lazar of Towson > University, found that the home pages of over 90 percent of the Web sites > they evaluated contained violations of the government's own guidelines > for compliance with Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. That > law requires that government electronic and information technology be > accessible to people with disabilities. > > Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: > "Blind Americans are outraged that the government is failing to comply > with its own guidelines to make government information and services > available to citizens with disabilities. Given the clear legal > requirements of Section 508 and the fact that use of the Internet is > critical to education, employment, access to government benefits and > services, and all other aspects of modern life, there is no excuse for > failure to follow and rigorously enforce these guidelines. We demand > that officials in all branches of government take immediate steps to > bring all federal Web sites into compliance with the law, and we pledge > to continue to hold the federal government accountable if it continues to > treat the blind and others with disabilities as second-class citizens." > > The study evaluated the home pages of one-hundred government Web sites > across all three branches of the federal government, including executive > agencies, independent agencies, government corporations (e.g. Amtrak), > the United States Congress, the United States Supreme Court, United > States federal courts, and "open government" Web sites like > www.usajobs.gov and > www.ready.gov. The authors utilized both > automated-software tools and human-expert inspections on each home page, > and determined that over 90 percent of the home pages were not in > compliance with the Section 508 regulations. > > Most of the accessibility problems were common ones that are easily > resolved, such as unlabeled images, mislabeled forms or tables, videos > without captioning, flash without any textual equivalents, and lack of > keyboard equivalents for mouse-over actions. The authors noted that this > is not a problem unique to one agency. Similar problems occur on > multiple agency Web sites, and the core problem is the lack of consistent > compliance activities and enforcement throughout the federal government. > > The study makes several recommendations to increase compliance, including > improved resources on complying with the guidelines; better documentation > of best practices; publishing of information about which agencies are > compliant and noncompliant with accessibility guidelines as part of the > open government dashboard; and better enforcement and monitoring > procedures within government agencies, such as the loss of Web-posting > privileges for repeatedly posting inaccessible content. > > > ### > > > About the National Federation of the Blind > > With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is > the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people > in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through > advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging > independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the > blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January > 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan > Institute, the first research and training center in the United States > for the blind led by the blind. > > > _______________________________________________ > gui-talk mailing list > gui-talk at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > gui-talk: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/compute > rtechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From k7uij at panix.com Fri May 20 21:42:38 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 14:42:38 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <30830473-6911-469A-ADBB-1ECB048A64B1@gmail.com> <00b401cc1699$53396720$f9ac3560$@panix.com> Message-ID: <6F5A17EC-F022-4646-8602-19847B0D70F6@panix.com> I agree To some extent, however, vitriol is often in the mind of the perceiver. We old-timers are used to hearing: "don't advocate NFB philosophy or I'll call you militant!. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 20, 2011, at 13:12, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Mike, > Very true. But, from my experience, a lot of that boils down to how > we present our philosophy. I've heard comments from some TVIS like > "they wouldn't even listen to me", "they acted like I didn't even > matter", "they ignored everything I said", etc. While I'm not denying > our philosophy places us in conflict with some TVIS (not as many as > some people like to think), I think if we present our philosophy in a > level-headed, civil, agreeable manner, even those who disagree with us > will be more compelled to do so agreeably. Making the conflict less > vitriolic and bitter would do a lot to improve the way we're presented > by TVIS, even many of the TVIS who don't agree with our philosophy. > That's all I'm saying-I'm not saying we compromise the tenets we hold > dear, I'm not saying we change our philosophy, only that we respect > and sincerely make an effort to at least listen to the philosophies of > others without letting emotions get in the way. > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> ... hate it when posts get cut off... >> Anyway, we should make the connection with TVIs, TTBs (whatever term >> you like to use) where we can and tell our story, or so I think. Have >> any folks found success in doing so in your respective divisions? >> >> what are ways people think we can do a better job as students in the >> organization of inviting younger students to get involved? how did you >> (if you are a middle/high school student) decide to get involved? >> >> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>> I think there are valid points to what both Mike and Kirt are saying. >>> However, I would think you could make that argument for any segment of >>> the blindness community, and I think that as members of student >>> divisions-( the population that TVIs serve) we should make more of an >>> effort wherever possible to reach those j population >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>> On the other hand, no matter how reasonably we present ourselves, our >>>> philosophy in and of itself is such a threat to some TVIs that their ears >>>> are closed. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Kirt Manwaring >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 6:57 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB >>>> >>>> Darian and all, >>>> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission teachers. >>>> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, itinerate >>>> teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind >>>> students, >>>> and their parents, first impressions about blindness and thus they have a >>>> huge influence on whatever expectations a student or parent develops >>>> about >>>> what is possible as a blind person. I think we need to put a lot more >>>> energy in to sincerely dialoguing with these teachers, especially the >>>> reasonable ones who don't agree with us (I'm not saying all teachers who >>>> disagree with us are reasonable), to improve our image and the way we're >>>> presented to students. Because my state affiliate is pretty good at >>>> this, >>>> my TVI, although she disagreed with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't >>>> discourage me from coming to my own opinions and getting as much >>>> firsthand >>>> experience with the Federation as I could. Even those blindness >>>> professionals who disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a >>>> civil >>>> and courteous manner, direct students to our organization. It happened >>>> with >>>> me. >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion is >>>>> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what you may >>>>> think needs improving?" >>>>> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit of >>>>> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a matter >>>>> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, this >>>>> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are also >>>>> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the answers! >>>>> Best, >>>>> Darian >>>>> >>>>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>> I don't think we're doing enough with the middleschool/elementary >>>>>> population. >>>>>> We need to get the message out faster, to the younger kids. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think about >>>>>>> this question? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, and >>>>>>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to communicate >>>>>>>> our message in a way that will reach people through new technologies. >>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%4 >>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertech >>>>>>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >>>>>> mail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Darian Smith >>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>> >>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>> >>>>> - Robert Byrne >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> — Robert Byrne >>> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> — Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri May 20 21:46:45 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 14:46:45 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <4dd6c8a8.4969e50a.463c.ffff89fb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: there were quite a few people on the call, most of them wished to listen (which is just fine), while others elected to chime in. Some were affiliate presidents, some were state student division presidents, and some were nabs board members. if some of them wish to contribute what discussions stood out to them, that would be a good thing. One thing thatI thought stood out is the idea of taking the energy of National/state convention and recreating that in our student divisions. If you have ever gone to a convention, you find that there is an energy and excitement around the event. A good part of that is the reunion factor, while alot of it is the exchange of ideas, the fellowship, the idea that we as blind people are not alone and at conventionit's brought into such a strong reality. We see people with canes and dogs dressed up and going to various meetings, seminars, events, fundraisers and banquet - that other blind people with their canes and dogs run themselves. I think this is a wonderful example of everything that we talk about in practice, and Hopefully, this should inspire us to not just talk about what we believe the truth is about blindness, but practice it, not only around each other at convention and at chapter meetings, but with each other in public. This models blindness to the public and to each other. That's something I remember, and my little spin on what I took from it On 5/20/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Chris, > It's awesome you're on here. You're a case study of why it's good > for students to get on board while they're young. Just out of > curiosity, how were you introduced to the Federation? > > On 5/20/11, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >> I agree completely, Kirt! Great points! >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kirt Manwaring > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:57:10 -0600 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB >> >> Darian and all, >> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission >> teachers. >> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, >> itinerate >> teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind >> students, and their parents, first impressions about blindness >> and >> thus they have a huge influence on whatever expectations a >> student or >> parent develops about what is possible as a blind person. I >> think we >> need to put a lot more energy in to sincerely dialoguing with >> these >> teachers, especially the reasonable ones who don't agree with us >> (I'm >> not saying all teachers who disagree with us are reasonable), to >> improve our image and the way we're presented to students. >> Because my >> state affiliate is pretty good at this, my TVI, although she >> disagreed >> with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't discourage me from coming >> to >> my own opinions and getting as much firsthand experience with the >> Federation as I could. Even those blindness professionals who >> disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a civil and >> courteous >> manner, direct students to our organization. It happened with >> me. >> Warmest regards, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion >> is >> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what >> you may >> think needs improving?" >> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit >> of >> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a >> matter >> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, >> this >> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are >> also >> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the >> answers! >> Best, >> Darian >> >> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> I don't think we're doing enough with the >> middleschool/elementary >> population. >> We need to get the message out faster, >> to the younger kids. >> >> >> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >> >> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think >> about this >> question? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" >> wrote: >> >> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, >> and >> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to >> communicate our >> message in a way that will reach people through new >> technologies. >> Thanks. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >> %40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >> echjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >> %40gmail.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> — Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >> ydude%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri May 20 21:55:53 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 15:55:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <4dd6c8a8.4969e50a.463c.ffff89fb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Mike, I don't mean to be crass, but so what? Do we have to meet vitriol with vitriol, match them insult for insult? I think not. And we both know it's not the same world it used to be-even those who disagree with us usually take us seriously. What's that famous aphorism from FDR? Speak softly and carry a big stick? Warmly, Kirt On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: > there were quite a few people on the call, most of them wished to > listen (which is just fine), while others elected to chime in. Some > were affiliate presidents, some were state student division > presidents, and some were nabs board members. > if some of them wish to contribute what discussions stood out to > them, that would be a good thing. > > One thing thatI thought stood out is the idea of taking the energy > of National/state convention and recreating that in our student > divisions. If you have ever gone to a convention, you find that > there is an energy and excitement around the event. A good part of > that is the reunion factor, while alot of it is the exchange of > ideas, the fellowship, the idea that we as blind people are not alone > and at conventionit's brought into such a strong reality. > We see people with canes and dogs dressed up and going to various > meetings, seminars, events, fundraisers and banquet - that other blind > people with their canes and dogs run themselves. > I think this is a wonderful example of everything that we talk > about in practice, and Hopefully, this should inspire us to not just > talk about what we believe the truth is about blindness, but practice > it, not only around each other at convention and at chapter meetings, > but with each other in public. This models blindness to the public > and to each other. > That's something I remember, and my little spin on what I took from it > > On 5/20/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Chris, >> It's awesome you're on here. You're a case study of why it's good >> for students to get on board while they're young. Just out of >> curiosity, how were you introduced to the Federation? >> >> On 5/20/11, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >>> I agree completely, Kirt! Great points! >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>> >>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:57:10 -0600 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB >>> >>> Darian and all, >>> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission >>> teachers. >>> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, >>> itinerate >>> teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind >>> students, and their parents, first impressions about blindness >>> and >>> thus they have a huge influence on whatever expectations a >>> student or >>> parent develops about what is possible as a blind person. I >>> think we >>> need to put a lot more energy in to sincerely dialoguing with >>> these >>> teachers, especially the reasonable ones who don't agree with us >>> (I'm >>> not saying all teachers who disagree with us are reasonable), to >>> improve our image and the way we're presented to students. >>> Because my >>> state affiliate is pretty good at this, my TVI, although she >>> disagreed >>> with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't discourage me from coming >>> to >>> my own opinions and getting as much firsthand experience with the >>> Federation as I could. Even those blindness professionals who >>> disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a civil and >>> courteous >>> manner, direct students to our organization. It happened with >>> me. >>> Warmest regards, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion >>> is >>> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what >>> you may >>> think needs improving?" >>> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit >>> of >>> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a >>> matter >>> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, >>> this >>> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are >>> also >>> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the >>> answers! >>> Best, >>> Darian >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> I don't think we're doing enough with the >>> middleschool/elementary >>> population. >>> We need to get the message out faster, >>> to the younger kids. >>> >>> >>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >>> >>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think >>> about this >>> question? >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" >>> wrote: >>> >>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, >>> and >>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to >>> communicate our >>> message in a way that will reach people through new >>> technologies. >>> Thanks. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >>> echjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> — Robert Byrne >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>> ydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri May 20 21:57:47 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 15:57:47 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <4dd6c8a8.4969e50a.463c.ffff89fb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Wait...that was Teddy Rosivelt. I can't believe I said FDr. But I think you get my point. *grin* On 5/20/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Mike, > I don't mean to be crass, but so what? Do we have to meet vitriol > with vitriol, match them insult for insult? I think not. And we both > know it's not the same world it used to be-even those who disagree > with us usually take us seriously. What's that famous aphorism from > FDR? Speak softly and carry a big stick? > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> there were quite a few people on the call, most of them wished to >> listen (which is just fine), while others elected to chime in. Some >> were affiliate presidents, some were state student division >> presidents, and some were nabs board members. >> if some of them wish to contribute what discussions stood out to >> them, that would be a good thing. >> >> One thing thatI thought stood out is the idea of taking the energy >> of National/state convention and recreating that in our student >> divisions. If you have ever gone to a convention, you find that >> there is an energy and excitement around the event. A good part of >> that is the reunion factor, while alot of it is the exchange of >> ideas, the fellowship, the idea that we as blind people are not alone >> and at conventionit's brought into such a strong reality. >> We see people with canes and dogs dressed up and going to various >> meetings, seminars, events, fundraisers and banquet - that other blind >> people with their canes and dogs run themselves. >> I think this is a wonderful example of everything that we talk >> about in practice, and Hopefully, this should inspire us to not just >> talk about what we believe the truth is about blindness, but practice >> it, not only around each other at convention and at chapter meetings, >> but with each other in public. This models blindness to the public >> and to each other. >> That's something I remember, and my little spin on what I took from >> it >> >> On 5/20/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Chris, >>> It's awesome you're on here. You're a case study of why it's good >>> for students to get on board while they're young. Just out of >>> curiosity, how were you introduced to the Federation? >>> >>> On 5/20/11, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >>>> I agree completely, Kirt! Great points! >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>>> >>>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:57:10 -0600 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB >>>> >>>> Darian and all, >>>> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission >>>> teachers. >>>> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, >>>> itinerate >>>> teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind >>>> students, and their parents, first impressions about blindness >>>> and >>>> thus they have a huge influence on whatever expectations a >>>> student or >>>> parent develops about what is possible as a blind person. I >>>> think we >>>> need to put a lot more energy in to sincerely dialoguing with >>>> these >>>> teachers, especially the reasonable ones who don't agree with us >>>> (I'm >>>> not saying all teachers who disagree with us are reasonable), to >>>> improve our image and the way we're presented to students. >>>> Because my >>>> state affiliate is pretty good at this, my TVI, although she >>>> disagreed >>>> with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't discourage me from coming >>>> to >>>> my own opinions and getting as much firsthand experience with the >>>> Federation as I could. Even those blindness professionals who >>>> disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a civil and >>>> courteous >>>> manner, direct students to our organization. It happened with >>>> me. >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion >>>> is >>>> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what >>>> you may >>>> think needs improving?" >>>> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit >>>> of >>>> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a >>>> matter >>>> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, >>>> this >>>> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are >>>> also >>>> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the >>>> answers! >>>> Best, >>>> Darian >>>> >>>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> I don't think we're doing enough with the >>>> middleschool/elementary >>>> population. >>>> We need to get the message out faster, >>>> to the younger kids. >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think >>>> about this >>>> question? >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, >>>> and >>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to >>>> communicate our >>>> message in a way that will reach people through new >>>> technologies. >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >>>> echjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Darian Smith >>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>> >>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>> >>>> — Robert Byrne >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>>> ydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> — Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > From k7uij at panix.com Fri May 20 22:03:25 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 15:03:25 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] [gui-talk] Fwd: Object-oriented Programming Classes Questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds good, Steve. Thanks. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 20, 2011, at 7:48, "Steve Jacobson" wrote: > Mike, > > You have received many answers, but I don't know that the general question has been addressed. I do not have a lot of experiences with object oriented > programming, but I've done a little with various integrated development environments and I have had to take a lot of classes on the job over the years. > > My approach has always been to try to learn in a class the same thing that the other students were learning. What this has meant for me is that working > with someone else has often, but not always been a part of how I have operated. I have usually not required a dedicated reader. My approach has been > to get as much of the materials as I can in an accessible format and then try to work with a co-worker taking the same class. I tend to take a lot of notes > which include notes on how the person with whom I am working accomplishes tasks, even if it is with the mouse. I have found that if they are using > software that is not familiar to me, it is easier for me to learn how to use the software itself after the fact with the knowledge I have gained as a result of > working with someone else. Even if they use a mouse in a way that I would not do it, knowing how they do something helps me understand how I might go > about it and it helps me understand what the instructor is teaching. > > If I am taking a class in something that uses software with which I am familiar, I would probably tend to work alone if that is what others were doing. In the > situation that you are in where the language you learn might well be independent of the software you use, and if you have time, it might be worth trying to > become familiar with the software ahead of time whether or not you work with a reader. As I understand it, there are still some rough edges to using Visual > Studio with a screen reader but mostly it can be done. It is possible that you would do best to use whatever version works best with your screen reader > even if it is different than what the class uses, but that would be a judgement call. I know that there are people using Visual Studio with JFW and to a lesser > degree Window-Eyes on the PROGRAM-L list, so you probably should subscribe and ask there.The address to subscribe is > > program-l-request at freelists.org > > and put "subscribe" without the quotes in the subject line. > > I know that some people really put down the use of Integrated Development Environments, but they can really increase one's efficiency. However, you > could find that other IDE's work better than Visual Studio for you depending upon the language. Some of the less expensive text editors like UltraEdit and > the free text editor PSPAD have some useful IDE features. Still, a more complicated IDE such as Visual Studio has some nice features for laying out > screens if you are needing to develope a GUI interface, and at least some versions have some features that can be helpful with a screen reader. > > I hope some of this is helpful, although I suspect you know most of it already. Good luck. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Thu, 19 May 2011 10:41:51 -0700, Mike Freeman wrote: > > >>> From: "Freeman,Mike - TOSD-DITT-2" >>> Date: May 19, 2011 10:30:09 PDT >>> Subject: Object-oriented Programming Classes Questions >>> > >>> Hello. >>> >>> Although I have had some experience with languages implementing object-oriented programming, I've never taken classes on the subject. My question is > this: what platforms are beginning object-oriented programming classes generally run on and what accessibility tools are needed for a totally-blind student? Is > the best option to use a human reader? >>> >>> We use visual Studio 2008 around my work environment. Are there training courses on how to use it with JAWS, say, in C# programming? Are there e- > texts on the subject approached from a screen-reader perspective? >>> >>> WE use Ruby around my work environment also. Any experiences with this language and platforms on which its interpreter runs from an accessibility > perspective? >>> >>> And what's the situation viz. Java programming these days insofar as blind access is concerned? >>> >>> T I A! >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> gui-talk mailing list >> gui-talk at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for gui-talk: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From k7uij at panix.com Fri May 20 22:23:31 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 15:23:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <4dd6c8a8.4969e50a.463c.ffff89fb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: You're right. My point is that those who are suspicious of us may view what we say as vitriolic though we don't mean it so simply by virtue of the radicality of our message. If you view blindness as a tragedy, denying this belief is blasphemy. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 20, 2011, at 14:55, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Mike, > I don't mean to be crass, but so what? Do we have to meet vitriol > with vitriol, match them insult for insult? I think not. And we both > know it's not the same world it used to be-even those who disagree > with us usually take us seriously. What's that famous aphorism from > FDR? Speak softly and carry a big stick? > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> there were quite a few people on the call, most of them wished to >> listen (which is just fine), while others elected to chime in. Some >> were affiliate presidents, some were state student division >> presidents, and some were nabs board members. >> if some of them wish to contribute what discussions stood out to >> them, that would be a good thing. >> >> One thing thatI thought stood out is the idea of taking the energy >> of National/state convention and recreating that in our student >> divisions. If you have ever gone to a convention, you find that >> there is an energy and excitement around the event. A good part of >> that is the reunion factor, while alot of it is the exchange of >> ideas, the fellowship, the idea that we as blind people are not alone >> and at conventionit's brought into such a strong reality. >> We see people with canes and dogs dressed up and going to various >> meetings, seminars, events, fundraisers and banquet - that other blind >> people with their canes and dogs run themselves. >> I think this is a wonderful example of everything that we talk >> about in practice, and Hopefully, this should inspire us to not just >> talk about what we believe the truth is about blindness, but practice >> it, not only around each other at convention and at chapter meetings, >> but with each other in public. This models blindness to the public >> and to each other. >> That's something I remember, and my little spin on what I took from it >> >> On 5/20/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Chris, >>> It's awesome you're on here. You're a case study of why it's good >>> for students to get on board while they're young. Just out of >>> curiosity, how were you introduced to the Federation? >>> >>> On 5/20/11, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >>>> I agree completely, Kirt! Great points! >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>>> >>>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:57:10 -0600 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB >>>> >>>> Darian and all, >>>> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission >>>> teachers. >>>> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, >>>> itinerate >>>> teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind >>>> students, and their parents, first impressions about blindness >>>> and >>>> thus they have a huge influence on whatever expectations a >>>> student or >>>> parent develops about what is possible as a blind person. I >>>> think we >>>> need to put a lot more energy in to sincerely dialoguing with >>>> these >>>> teachers, especially the reasonable ones who don't agree with us >>>> (I'm >>>> not saying all teachers who disagree with us are reasonable), to >>>> improve our image and the way we're presented to students. >>>> Because my >>>> state affiliate is pretty good at this, my TVI, although she >>>> disagreed >>>> with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't discourage me from coming >>>> to >>>> my own opinions and getting as much firsthand experience with the >>>> Federation as I could. Even those blindness professionals who >>>> disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a civil and >>>> courteous >>>> manner, direct students to our organization. It happened with >>>> me. >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion >>>> is >>>> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what >>>> you may >>>> think needs improving?" >>>> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit >>>> of >>>> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a >>>> matter >>>> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, >>>> this >>>> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are >>>> also >>>> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the >>>> answers! >>>> Best, >>>> Darian >>>> >>>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> I don't think we're doing enough with the >>>> middleschool/elementary >>>> population. >>>> We need to get the message out faster, >>>> to the younger kids. >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think >>>> about this >>>> question? >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, >>>> and >>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to >>>> communicate our >>>> message in a way that will reach people through new >>>> technologies. >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >>>> echjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Darian Smith >>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>> >>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>> >>>> — Robert Byrne >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>>> ydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> — Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri May 20 22:29:53 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 15:29:53 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <4dd6c8a8.4969e50a.463c.ffff89fb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: How do we communicate this message to the students we come acrossin our lives, camps, schools and the like? On 5/20/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > You're right. My point is that those who are suspicious of us may view what > we say as vitriolic though we don't mean it so simply by virtue of the > radicality of our message. If you view blindness as a tragedy, denying this > belief is blasphemy. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 20, 2011, at 14:55, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >> Mike, >> I don't mean to be crass, but so what? Do we have to meet vitriol >> with vitriol, match them insult for insult? I think not. And we both >> know it's not the same world it used to be-even those who disagree >> with us usually take us seriously. What's that famous aphorism from >> FDR? Speak softly and carry a big stick? >> Warmly, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>> there were quite a few people on the call, most of them wished to >>> listen (which is just fine), while others elected to chime in. Some >>> were affiliate presidents, some were state student division >>> presidents, and some were nabs board members. >>> if some of them wish to contribute what discussions stood out to >>> them, that would be a good thing. >>> >>> One thing thatI thought stood out is the idea of taking the energy >>> of National/state convention and recreating that in our student >>> divisions. If you have ever gone to a convention, you find that >>> there is an energy and excitement around the event. A good part of >>> that is the reunion factor, while alot of it is the exchange of >>> ideas, the fellowship, the idea that we as blind people are not alone >>> and at conventionit's brought into such a strong reality. >>> We see people with canes and dogs dressed up and going to various >>> meetings, seminars, events, fundraisers and banquet - that other blind >>> people with their canes and dogs run themselves. >>> I think this is a wonderful example of everything that we talk >>> about in practice, and Hopefully, this should inspire us to not just >>> talk about what we believe the truth is about blindness, but practice >>> it, not only around each other at convention and at chapter meetings, >>> but with each other in public. This models blindness to the public >>> and to each other. >>> That's something I remember, and my little spin on what I took from it >>> >>> On 5/20/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Chris, >>>> It's awesome you're on here. You're a case study of why it's good >>>> for students to get on board while they're young. Just out of >>>> curiosity, how were you introduced to the Federation? >>>> >>>> On 5/20/11, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >>>>> I agree completely, Kirt! Great points! >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>>>> >>>>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:57:10 -0600 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB >>>>> >>>>> Darian and all, >>>>> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission >>>>> teachers. >>>>> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, >>>>> itinerate >>>>> teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind >>>>> students, and their parents, first impressions about blindness >>>>> and >>>>> thus they have a huge influence on whatever expectations a >>>>> student or >>>>> parent develops about what is possible as a blind person. I >>>>> think we >>>>> need to put a lot more energy in to sincerely dialoguing with >>>>> these >>>>> teachers, especially the reasonable ones who don't agree with us >>>>> (I'm >>>>> not saying all teachers who disagree with us are reasonable), to >>>>> improve our image and the way we're presented to students. >>>>> Because my >>>>> state affiliate is pretty good at this, my TVI, although she >>>>> disagreed >>>>> with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't discourage me from coming >>>>> to >>>>> my own opinions and getting as much firsthand experience with the >>>>> Federation as I could. Even those blindness professionals who >>>>> disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a civil and >>>>> courteous >>>>> manner, direct students to our organization. It happened with >>>>> me. >>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion >>>>> is >>>>> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what >>>>> you may >>>>> think needs improving?" >>>>> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit >>>>> of >>>>> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a >>>>> matter >>>>> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, >>>>> this >>>>> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are >>>>> also >>>>> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the >>>>> answers! >>>>> Best, >>>>> Darian >>>>> >>>>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>> I don't think we're doing enough with the >>>>> middleschool/elementary >>>>> population. >>>>> We need to get the message out faster, >>>>> to the younger kids. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think >>>>> about this >>>>> question? >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, >>>>> and >>>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to >>>>> communicate our >>>>> message in a way that will reach people through new >>>>> technologies. >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >>>>> echjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Darian Smith >>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>> >>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>> >>>>> — Robert Byrne >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>>>> ydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>>>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> — Robert Byrne >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Fri May 20 22:35:46 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 17:35:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Good luck with your endeavors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nabsters, I've not posted in weeks, but as many of you know, finals are a crazy, crazy time of year. Though my post have often been few and far between over the years, I've always enjoyed the lively discussions and plethora of information. My husband and I are stepping down from our various leadership positions so we can focus on personal, and professional goals. We are not quitting the Federation altogether, but we are taking a well deserved break. I wanted to say a few things before I take an extended absence from this list. I graduate in August, but I'm applying to different MFA programs for creative writing. I'm also interning with a public relations group this summer, which, only two weeks in, and I'm already busy with projects up to my eyes! *smile* My husband begins grad school in the fall, and we both are searching for new employment opportunities. I hope the future holds many more opportunities, and I'm figuring out what my next step will be. My husband and I are excited about some opportunities looming on the horizon including a family. We have reached a point when we want to focus our energies on personal goals, and find the balance between Federation involvement and everything else. The work we have accomplished with the NFB means a lot to us, but it is now time to accomplish goals for selfish reasons! *smile* As the future leaders in this organization, and the future voice of the blind, I encourage each of you to work diligently towards your dreams. Don't ever let anyone, including the NFB, tell you that your dreams are impossible. Obstacles only exist because we allow them. Keep this in mind, if it is difficult and scary, you are probably moving in the right direction. Strive to achieve as much independence as possible. The blind have limitations because society decided this long ago. We based our reality on perceptions, not truth. As blind people, we can achieve whatever we set our minds on. Let limitations be a thought of the past. Be efficient with your skills. Both partials and totals, prepare yourself for each and every situation. Don't let fears, ignorance and perceptions hold you back. Remember, the tools of the blind, Braille, canes and dogs, adaptive technology, are not badges of the handicapped, but are tools of the independent. Let's change the world's opinions by insisting they accept us, and our tools and methods, as capable, equal people. The better you are with the skills, the more success you will achieve, and people will recognize that blind people are not less capable. Your life is what you make it. If you grasp this, you will find a whole new world open to you. Learn from your past, but don't dwell on it. We can't change what has already happened. Grow from your experiences, but don't define your future by any negativity from the past. Live in the moment, but always think of the future. Your teens and twenties will fly by so chase your dreams now. If one avenue ends and does not bring what you hoped for, choose another route and keep moving. Do not allow blindness to define you. Blindness is but one part of you. You are a full person who has a lot to offer. Blindness does not make you completely different from anyone else, so don't let it become the defining aspect of you. Please, please keep an open mind in all things. Don't be ruled by what others tell you, or what you hear. Consider all sides before making decisions. No single person, or organization, has all the answers. Growth and change is good and should happen. With no growth, stagnancy occurs, and no one is helped when there is no forward movement. Keep your own council, and learn to make your own decisions. Questioning is not a bad thing. Do not be afraid to speak up and voice concerns and suggestions. If your voice is silenced, consider finding a new venue where your voice is appreciated. We expect the rest of the world to open their minds about blindness, let's not close our minds in return. Work to achieve true equality, which means sharing that equality. Open your mind to new experiences and people, and don't allow blindness to become a means of reverse prejudice. I'll still be around, and I may pop on the list from time to time, but I hope we all experience bright things in our future. For anyone interested, I will continue to advertise my blogs as many of you have been awesome supporters. Good luck in all your endeavors. Bridgit Pollpeter From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Fri May 20 22:36:33 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 18:36:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] programing environments Message-ID: <3F222EBA-358B-4A3A-8671-E78CE87F810E@gmail.com> Hi all: I have j12 running and I want to start learning how to program for Windows. What tools should I use to learn it? What languages are required, and how accessible are they/their tools? Thanks, Jorge From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri May 20 22:43:03 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 16:43:03 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <4dd6c8a8.4969e50a.463c.ffff89fb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Darian, We talk less, we do more. On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: > How do we communicate this message to the students we come acrossin > our lives, camps, schools and the like? > > On 5/20/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> You're right. My point is that those who are suspicious of us may view >> what >> we say as vitriolic though we don't mean it so simply by virtue of the >> radicality of our message. If you view blindness as a tragedy, denying >> this >> belief is blasphemy. >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 14:55, Kirt Manwaring >> wrote: >> >>> Mike, >>> I don't mean to be crass, but so what? Do we have to meet vitriol >>> with vitriol, match them insult for insult? I think not. And we both >>> know it's not the same world it used to be-even those who disagree >>> with us usually take us seriously. What's that famous aphorism from >>> FDR? Speak softly and carry a big stick? >>> Warmly, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> there were quite a few people on the call, most of them wished to >>>> listen (which is just fine), while others elected to chime in. Some >>>> were affiliate presidents, some were state student division >>>> presidents, and some were nabs board members. >>>> if some of them wish to contribute what discussions stood out to >>>> them, that would be a good thing. >>>> >>>> One thing thatI thought stood out is the idea of taking the energy >>>> of National/state convention and recreating that in our student >>>> divisions. If you have ever gone to a convention, you find that >>>> there is an energy and excitement around the event. A good part of >>>> that is the reunion factor, while alot of it is the exchange of >>>> ideas, the fellowship, the idea that we as blind people are not alone >>>> and at conventionit's brought into such a strong reality. >>>> We see people with canes and dogs dressed up and going to various >>>> meetings, seminars, events, fundraisers and banquet - that other blind >>>> people with their canes and dogs run themselves. >>>> I think this is a wonderful example of everything that we talk >>>> about in practice, and Hopefully, this should inspire us to not just >>>> talk about what we believe the truth is about blindness, but practice >>>> it, not only around each other at convention and at chapter meetings, >>>> but with each other in public. This models blindness to the public >>>> and to each other. >>>> That's something I remember, and my little spin on what I took from >>>> it >>>> >>>> On 5/20/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Chris, >>>>> It's awesome you're on here. You're a case study of why it's good >>>>> for students to get on board while they're young. Just out of >>>>> curiosity, how were you introduced to the Federation? >>>>> >>>>> On 5/20/11, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >>>>>> I agree completely, Kirt! Great points! >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris >>>>>> >>>>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>>>>> >>>>>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:57:10 -0600 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB >>>>>> >>>>>> Darian and all, >>>>>> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission >>>>>> teachers. >>>>>> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, >>>>>> itinerate >>>>>> teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind >>>>>> students, and their parents, first impressions about blindness >>>>>> and >>>>>> thus they have a huge influence on whatever expectations a >>>>>> student or >>>>>> parent develops about what is possible as a blind person. I >>>>>> think we >>>>>> need to put a lot more energy in to sincerely dialoguing with >>>>>> these >>>>>> teachers, especially the reasonable ones who don't agree with us >>>>>> (I'm >>>>>> not saying all teachers who disagree with us are reasonable), to >>>>>> improve our image and the way we're presented to students. >>>>>> Because my >>>>>> state affiliate is pretty good at this, my TVI, although she >>>>>> disagreed >>>>>> with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't discourage me from coming >>>>>> to >>>>>> my own opinions and getting as much firsthand experience with the >>>>>> Federation as I could. Even those blindness professionals who >>>>>> disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a civil and >>>>>> courteous >>>>>> manner, direct students to our organization. It happened with >>>>>> me. >>>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion >>>>>> is >>>>>> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what >>>>>> you may >>>>>> think needs improving?" >>>>>> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit >>>>>> of >>>>>> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a >>>>>> matter >>>>>> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, >>>>>> this >>>>>> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are >>>>>> also >>>>>> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the >>>>>> answers! >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Darian >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>> I don't think we're doing enough with the >>>>>> middleschool/elementary >>>>>> population. >>>>>> We need to get the message out faster, >>>>>> to the younger kids. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think >>>>>> about this >>>>>> question? >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, >>>>>> and >>>>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to >>>>>> communicate our >>>>>> message in a way that will reach people through new >>>>>> technologies. >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >>>>>> echjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Darian Smith >>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>>> >>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>>> >>>>>> — Robert Byrne >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>>>>> ydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>>>>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Darian Smith >>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>> >>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>> >>>> — Robert Byrne >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri May 20 22:47:58 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 15:47:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Good luck with your endeavors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Best of luck! At some point, it is expected that most of, if not all of us may stepaway, but never too far away. It's always good to think about yourself while you think about others, and one daywe all have to truly consider ourselves to truly be happy. I wish you the best in acheving that complete happiness! Darian On 5/20/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > Dear Nabsters, > > I've not posted in weeks, but as many of you know, finals are a crazy, > crazy time of year. Though my post have often been few and far between > over the years, I've always enjoyed the lively discussions and plethora > of information. My husband and I are stepping down from our various > leadership positions so we can focus on personal, and professional > goals. We are not quitting the Federation altogether, but we are taking > a well deserved break. I wanted to say a few things before I take an > extended absence from this list. > > I graduate in August, but I'm applying to different MFA programs for > creative writing. I'm also interning with a public relations group this > summer, which, only two weeks in, and I'm already busy with projects up > to my eyes! *smile* My husband begins grad school in the fall, and we > both are searching for new employment opportunities. I hope the future > holds many more opportunities, and I'm figuring out what my next step > will be. My husband and I are excited about some opportunities looming > on the horizon including a family. We have reached a point when we want > to focus our energies on personal goals, and find the balance between > Federation involvement and everything else. The work we have > accomplished with the NFB means a lot to us, but it is now time to > accomplish goals for selfish reasons! *smile* > > As the future leaders in this organization, and the future voice of the > blind, I encourage each of you to work diligently towards your dreams. > Don't ever let anyone, including the NFB, tell you that your dreams are > impossible. Obstacles only exist because we allow them. Keep this in > mind, if it is difficult and scary, you are probably moving in the right > direction. > > Strive to achieve as much independence as possible. The blind have > limitations because society decided this long ago. We based our reality > on perceptions, not truth. As blind people, we can achieve whatever we > set our minds on. Let limitations be a thought of the past. > > Be efficient with your skills. Both partials and totals, prepare > yourself for each and every situation. Don't let fears, ignorance and > perceptions hold you back. Remember, the tools of the blind, Braille, > canes and dogs, adaptive technology, are not badges of the handicapped, > but are tools of the independent. Let's change the world's opinions by > insisting they accept us, and our tools and methods, as capable, equal > people. The better you are with the skills, the more success you will > achieve, and people will recognize that blind people are not less > capable. Your life is what you make it. If you grasp this, you will > find a whole new world open to you. > > Learn from your past, but don't dwell on it. We can't change what has > already happened. Grow from your experiences, but don't define your > future by any negativity from the past. Live in the moment, but always > think of the future. Your teens and twenties will fly by so chase your > dreams now. If one avenue ends and does not bring what you hoped for, > choose another route and keep moving. > > Do not allow blindness to define you. Blindness is but one part of you. > You are a full person who has a lot to offer. Blindness does not make > you completely different from anyone else, so don't let it become the > defining aspect of you. > > Please, please keep an open mind in all things. Don't be ruled by what > others tell you, or what you hear. Consider all sides before making > decisions. No single person, or organization, has all the answers. > Growth and change is good and should happen. With no growth, stagnancy > occurs, and no one is helped when there is no forward movement. > > Keep your own council, and learn to make your own decisions. > Questioning is not a bad thing. Do not be afraid to speak up and voice > concerns and suggestions. If your voice is silenced, consider finding a > new venue where your voice is appreciated. We expect the rest of the > world to open their minds about blindness, let's not close our minds in > return. Work to achieve true equality, which means sharing that > equality. Open your mind to new experiences and people, and don't allow > blindness to become a means of reverse prejudice. > > I'll still be around, and I may pop on the list from time to time, but I > hope we all experience bright things in our future. For anyone > interested, I will continue to advertise my blogs as many of you have > been awesome supporters. > > Good luck in all your endeavors. > > Bridgit Pollpeter > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Fri May 20 22:49:52 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 18:49:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Object-oriented Programming Classes Questions In-Reply-To: <2D91F666-A7A1-45C2-A12E-898792EB932E@gmail.com> References: <624DF19A4EEFD647B87A8574625B3A3601053FF04AE3@spnvm1183.bud.bpa.gov> <0CFF9229-A542-4E05-A3CE-DC114E81425A@panix.com> <4DD65E56.4000808@pcdesk.net> <2D91F666-A7A1-45C2-A12E-898792EB932E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <89F108F1-4599-4520-ABE6-A14B14478BCD@gmail.com> xCode is very clumsy as far as I know with Voice Over, the last version I ran ran on 10.6.1 I believe, maybe 10.5.8, I'm not sure. On May 20, 2011, at 1:59 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > Has anybody tried the newest version of xCode? I would like to know if accessibility has improved since versions 3.x before I buy it. I'm tired of dealing with Interface Builder... > > IC > On May 20, 2011, at 8:28 AM, Joseph C. Lininger wrote: > >> Generally beginning object oriented courses are done in Java. Sometimes >> it will be C++, but it's almost always Java with all of the institutions >> I know about. You will have no trouble if all you need to write are text >> based applications. If you have to develop GUI apps, things get a little >> more interesting because well, frankly, the access to them is just not >> there. There have been efforts to make it work in the past, but yeah. >> It's just not there at the moment. >> >> Sorry, but I can't really provide any assistance with visual studeo >> since I don't use that particular environment. I'm more a unix guy >> myself when it comes to programming. >> Joe >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri May 20 22:50:32 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 15:50:32 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <4dd6c8a8.4969e50a.463c.ffff89fb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Kirt, absolutely, but in what ways, how can weencourage ourselves to talk less and do more? and what does that "do more" look like ? On 5/20/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Darian, > We talk less, we do more. > > On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> How do we communicate this message to the students we come acrossin >> our lives, camps, schools and the like? >> >> On 5/20/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> You're right. My point is that those who are suspicious of us may view >>> what >>> we say as vitriolic though we don't mean it so simply by virtue of the >>> radicality of our message. If you view blindness as a tragedy, denying >>> this >>> belief is blasphemy. >>> >>> Mike Freeman >>> sent from my iPhone >>> >>> >>> On May 20, 2011, at 14:55, Kirt Manwaring >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Mike, >>>> I don't mean to be crass, but so what? Do we have to meet vitriol >>>> with vitriol, match them insult for insult? I think not. And we both >>>> know it's not the same world it used to be-even those who disagree >>>> with us usually take us seriously. What's that famous aphorism from >>>> FDR? Speak softly and carry a big stick? >>>> Warmly, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>> there were quite a few people on the call, most of them wished to >>>>> listen (which is just fine), while others elected to chime in. Some >>>>> were affiliate presidents, some were state student division >>>>> presidents, and some were nabs board members. >>>>> if some of them wish to contribute what discussions stood out to >>>>> them, that would be a good thing. >>>>> >>>>> One thing thatI thought stood out is the idea of taking the energy >>>>> of National/state convention and recreating that in our student >>>>> divisions. If you have ever gone to a convention, you find that >>>>> there is an energy and excitement around the event. A good part of >>>>> that is the reunion factor, while alot of it is the exchange of >>>>> ideas, the fellowship, the idea that we as blind people are not alone >>>>> and at conventionit's brought into such a strong reality. >>>>> We see people with canes and dogs dressed up and going to various >>>>> meetings, seminars, events, fundraisers and banquet - that other blind >>>>> people with their canes and dogs run themselves. >>>>> I think this is a wonderful example of everything that we talk >>>>> about in practice, and Hopefully, this should inspire us to not just >>>>> talk about what we believe the truth is about blindness, but practice >>>>> it, not only around each other at convention and at chapter meetings, >>>>> but with each other in public. This models blindness to the public >>>>> and to each other. >>>>> That's something I remember, and my little spin on what I took from >>>>> it >>>>> >>>>> On 5/20/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>> Chris, >>>>>> It's awesome you're on here. You're a case study of why it's good >>>>>> for students to get on board while they're young. Just out of >>>>>> curiosity, how were you introduced to the Federation? >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/20/11, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >>>>>>> I agree completely, Kirt! Great points! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:57:10 -0600 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Darian and all, >>>>>>> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission >>>>>>> teachers. >>>>>>> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, >>>>>>> itinerate >>>>>>> teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind >>>>>>> students, and their parents, first impressions about blindness >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> thus they have a huge influence on whatever expectations a >>>>>>> student or >>>>>>> parent develops about what is possible as a blind person. I >>>>>>> think we >>>>>>> need to put a lot more energy in to sincerely dialoguing with >>>>>>> these >>>>>>> teachers, especially the reasonable ones who don't agree with us >>>>>>> (I'm >>>>>>> not saying all teachers who disagree with us are reasonable), to >>>>>>> improve our image and the way we're presented to students. >>>>>>> Because my >>>>>>> state affiliate is pretty good at this, my TVI, although she >>>>>>> disagreed >>>>>>> with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't discourage me from coming >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> my own opinions and getting as much firsthand experience with the >>>>>>> Federation as I could. Even those blindness professionals who >>>>>>> disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a civil and >>>>>>> courteous >>>>>>> manner, direct students to our organization. It happened with >>>>>>> me. >>>>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>>> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what >>>>>>> you may >>>>>>> think needs improving?" >>>>>>> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a >>>>>>> matter >>>>>>> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are >>>>>>> also >>>>>>> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the >>>>>>> answers! >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Darian >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>> I don't think we're doing enough with the >>>>>>> middleschool/elementary >>>>>>> population. >>>>>>> We need to get the message out faster, >>>>>>> to the younger kids. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think >>>>>>> about this >>>>>>> question? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to >>>>>>> communicate our >>>>>>> message in a way that will reach people through new >>>>>>> technologies. >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >>>>>>> echjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Darian Smith >>>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> — Robert Byrne >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>>>>>> ydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>>>>>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Darian Smith >>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>> >>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>> >>>>> — Robert Byrne >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> — Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri May 20 22:50:37 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 16:50:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Good luck with your endeavors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bridget, It's been a pleasure. I'll miss your lively conversation and passionate opinions. I've enjoyed butting heads with you, I've also learned a lot from you. I know your family comes first, none of us would have it any other way, but I look forward to you popping in from time to time as life permits. Best wishes, Kirt On 5/20/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > Dear Nabsters, > > I've not posted in weeks, but as many of you know, finals are a crazy, > crazy time of year. Though my post have often been few and far between > over the years, I've always enjoyed the lively discussions and plethora > of information. My husband and I are stepping down from our various > leadership positions so we can focus on personal, and professional > goals. We are not quitting the Federation altogether, but we are taking > a well deserved break. I wanted to say a few things before I take an > extended absence from this list. > > I graduate in August, but I'm applying to different MFA programs for > creative writing. I'm also interning with a public relations group this > summer, which, only two weeks in, and I'm already busy with projects up > to my eyes! *smile* My husband begins grad school in the fall, and we > both are searching for new employment opportunities. I hope the future > holds many more opportunities, and I'm figuring out what my next step > will be. My husband and I are excited about some opportunities looming > on the horizon including a family. We have reached a point when we want > to focus our energies on personal goals, and find the balance between > Federation involvement and everything else. The work we have > accomplished with the NFB means a lot to us, but it is now time to > accomplish goals for selfish reasons! *smile* > > As the future leaders in this organization, and the future voice of the > blind, I encourage each of you to work diligently towards your dreams. > Don't ever let anyone, including the NFB, tell you that your dreams are > impossible. Obstacles only exist because we allow them. Keep this in > mind, if it is difficult and scary, you are probably moving in the right > direction. > > Strive to achieve as much independence as possible. The blind have > limitations because society decided this long ago. We based our reality > on perceptions, not truth. As blind people, we can achieve whatever we > set our minds on. Let limitations be a thought of the past. > > Be efficient with your skills. Both partials and totals, prepare > yourself for each and every situation. Don't let fears, ignorance and > perceptions hold you back. Remember, the tools of the blind, Braille, > canes and dogs, adaptive technology, are not badges of the handicapped, > but are tools of the independent. Let's change the world's opinions by > insisting they accept us, and our tools and methods, as capable, equal > people. The better you are with the skills, the more success you will > achieve, and people will recognize that blind people are not less > capable. Your life is what you make it. If you grasp this, you will > find a whole new world open to you. > > Learn from your past, but don't dwell on it. We can't change what has > already happened. Grow from your experiences, but don't define your > future by any negativity from the past. Live in the moment, but always > think of the future. Your teens and twenties will fly by so chase your > dreams now. If one avenue ends and does not bring what you hoped for, > choose another route and keep moving. > > Do not allow blindness to define you. Blindness is but one part of you. > You are a full person who has a lot to offer. Blindness does not make > you completely different from anyone else, so don't let it become the > defining aspect of you. > > Please, please keep an open mind in all things. Don't be ruled by what > others tell you, or what you hear. Consider all sides before making > decisions. No single person, or organization, has all the answers. > Growth and change is good and should happen. With no growth, stagnancy > occurs, and no one is helped when there is no forward movement. > > Keep your own council, and learn to make your own decisions. > Questioning is not a bad thing. Do not be afraid to speak up and voice > concerns and suggestions. If your voice is silenced, consider finding a > new venue where your voice is appreciated. We expect the rest of the > world to open their minds about blindness, let's not close our minds in > return. Work to achieve true equality, which means sharing that > equality. Open your mind to new experiences and people, and don't allow > blindness to become a means of reverse prejudice. > > I'll still be around, and I may pop on the list from time to time, but I > hope we all experience bright things in our future. For anyone > interested, I will continue to advertise my blogs as many of you have > been awesome supporters. > > Good luck in all your endeavors. > > Bridgit Pollpeter > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Fri May 20 22:59:30 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 18:59:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: <4dd6c8a2.4969e50a.463c.ffff89f7@mx.google.com> References: <4dd6c8a2.4969e50a.463c.ffff89f7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <666F2776-36D7-4382-8B88-5261C2DCF2B5@gmail.com> Hey Chris: Nice to see some younger people on this list. *smile I know some NFB members who are in middle school/highschool but I can count them on my fingers, and 90% of the kids I talk to who are blind and/or sight impaired don't even know that NFB exists, let alone what it stands for. On May 20, 2011, at 4:01 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: > Like me? I'm in middle school! * Smile! I agree with you, Jorge. And that goes for sighted people as well as blind students. > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 21:27:09 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB > > I don't think we're doing enough with the middleschool/elementary population. > We need to get the message out faster, > to the younger kids. > > > On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: > > Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think about this question? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" wrote: > > I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, and whether or not we're doing anything to address how to communicate our message in a way that will reach people through new technologies. Thanks. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Fri May 20 23:01:17 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 19:01:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate In-Reply-To: <4dd6c89e.4969e50a.463c.ffff89f3@mx.google.com> References: <4dd6c89e.4969e50a.463c.ffff89f3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1149D39F-75D4-469B-9E66-0B9C43439AFD@gmail.com> Oh, you've had problems? Hmmm. Do you think I'll be able to run it as a Braille display on my win7 machine or might that be problematic? My vision teacher tried to set it up on my Mac but it never worked via Blutooth, and now that I have Windows she thought it might be a good idea to try it. Jorge On May 20, 2011, at 4:01 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: > I don't know about the Braille Sense's operating system, but I'll ask my friend who has one. As far as the BN syncing to Windows 7 computers, I'm not sure about that either. But I'd assume I would have the same problem as with XP or Vista, being that the Apex is running Windows CE 6.0. > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 17:11:24 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate > > Chris: > quick question, > does the Braille Sense run on newer Windows OS then SE? > Also: have you tried syncing your BN to any Windows7 computer, > if so, > any trouble? > > And, > as far as TTS, I agree with you, Elequence is so far my favorite. > > On May 19, 2011, at 3:57 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: > > So does the Apex, but it's running a * really old version of Windows CE, which is annoying when trying to cync it to a newer PC. By the way, what do you all think about the TTS on all these notetakers? I like Eloquence personally because it's more human-sounding and clearer in my opinion, but a lot of people like the BN's Keynote Gold. What about the others? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Wed, 18 May 2011 21:28:31 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille note V. Sense V. Packmate > > Hi Kirt: > I'm not sure but from what I saw in convention the Sense runs on some form of Windows like system. > > > On May 18, 2011, at 9:19 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > > JOrge, > Right now, I'd say the Apex is the industry leader-with the Braille > Sense nipping at its heels. I like the interface on the PAC mate, but > I think freedom scientific shot themselves in the foot trying to make > it too open and...umm, what's the word...anti-proprietary? I don't > know enough about the Braille Sense interface, but I'd say the Apex > has more features than the Pac Mate, but I like the Pac Mate interface > better because I used it for 5 years. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/18/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > Hi all: > Just wondering, > as far as note takers, > which one in your opinion is the best or seems to be the industry leader? > If so why? > Which one seems to have the most feature-rich interphase? > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri May 20 23:03:36 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 17:03:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <4dd6c8a8.4969e50a.463c.ffff89fb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Darian, Good questions, to be sure. I think what it boils down to is are we competing on terms of equality in the sighted world? In other words, if we're employed or actively seeking employment training (and I'm not judging those blind people who are unemployed through no fault of their own), and if we're doing it in the way everyone else does, going to school and working in the public, people will notice if we do it well. That's the best way to atract interested people-a blind person may approach you and say "where'd you get that confidence?", a TVI may seek you out and ask how you're doing what your're doing, etc. In other words, we live Federationism by example and those interested in learning more will see we're different because we see ourselves as regular people who happen to be blind. I'm not saying we don't advertise-I'm just saying our lifestyles and our confidence and our work in the sighted world should be our biggest advertisement. Hope that clarifies, Kirt On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: > Kirt, > absolutely, but in what ways, how can weencourage ourselves to > talk less and do more? and what does that "do more" look like ? > > On 5/20/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Darian, >> We talk less, we do more. >> >> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>> How do we communicate this message to the students we come acrossin >>> our lives, camps, schools and the like? >>> >>> On 5/20/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>> You're right. My point is that those who are suspicious of us may view >>>> what >>>> we say as vitriolic though we don't mean it so simply by virtue of the >>>> radicality of our message. If you view blindness as a tragedy, denying >>>> this >>>> belief is blasphemy. >>>> >>>> Mike Freeman >>>> sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 20, 2011, at 14:55, Kirt Manwaring >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Mike, >>>>> I don't mean to be crass, but so what? Do we have to meet vitriol >>>>> with vitriol, match them insult for insult? I think not. And we both >>>>> know it's not the same world it used to be-even those who disagree >>>>> with us usually take us seriously. What's that famous aphorism from >>>>> FDR? Speak softly and carry a big stick? >>>>> Warmly, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>> there were quite a few people on the call, most of them wished to >>>>>> listen (which is just fine), while others elected to chime in. Some >>>>>> were affiliate presidents, some were state student division >>>>>> presidents, and some were nabs board members. >>>>>> if some of them wish to contribute what discussions stood out to >>>>>> them, that would be a good thing. >>>>>> >>>>>> One thing thatI thought stood out is the idea of taking the energy >>>>>> of National/state convention and recreating that in our student >>>>>> divisions. If you have ever gone to a convention, you find that >>>>>> there is an energy and excitement around the event. A good part of >>>>>> that is the reunion factor, while alot of it is the exchange of >>>>>> ideas, the fellowship, the idea that we as blind people are not alone >>>>>> and at conventionit's brought into such a strong reality. >>>>>> We see people with canes and dogs dressed up and going to various >>>>>> meetings, seminars, events, fundraisers and banquet - that other blind >>>>>> people with their canes and dogs run themselves. >>>>>> I think this is a wonderful example of everything that we talk >>>>>> about in practice, and Hopefully, this should inspire us to not just >>>>>> talk about what we believe the truth is about blindness, but practice >>>>>> it, not only around each other at convention and at chapter meetings, >>>>>> but with each other in public. This models blindness to the public >>>>>> and to each other. >>>>>> That's something I remember, and my little spin on what I took from >>>>>> it >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/20/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>> Chris, >>>>>>> It's awesome you're on here. You're a case study of why it's good >>>>>>> for students to get on board while they're young. Just out of >>>>>>> curiosity, how were you introduced to the Federation? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/20/11, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >>>>>>>> I agree completely, Kirt! Great points! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:57:10 -0600 >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Darian and all, >>>>>>>> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission >>>>>>>> teachers. >>>>>>>> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, >>>>>>>> itinerate >>>>>>>> teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind >>>>>>>> students, and their parents, first impressions about blindness >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> thus they have a huge influence on whatever expectations a >>>>>>>> student or >>>>>>>> parent develops about what is possible as a blind person. I >>>>>>>> think we >>>>>>>> need to put a lot more energy in to sincerely dialoguing with >>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>> teachers, especially the reasonable ones who don't agree with us >>>>>>>> (I'm >>>>>>>> not saying all teachers who disagree with us are reasonable), to >>>>>>>> improve our image and the way we're presented to students. >>>>>>>> Because my >>>>>>>> state affiliate is pretty good at this, my TVI, although she >>>>>>>> disagreed >>>>>>>> with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't discourage me from coming >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> my own opinions and getting as much firsthand experience with the >>>>>>>> Federation as I could. Even those blindness professionals who >>>>>>>> disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a civil and >>>>>>>> courteous >>>>>>>> manner, direct students to our organization. It happened with >>>>>>>> me. >>>>>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>>>> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what >>>>>>>> you may >>>>>>>> think needs improving?" >>>>>>>> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a >>>>>>>> matter >>>>>>>> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are >>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the >>>>>>>> answers! >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Darian >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>> I don't think we're doing enough with the >>>>>>>> middleschool/elementary >>>>>>>> population. >>>>>>>> We need to get the message out faster, >>>>>>>> to the younger kids. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think >>>>>>>> about this >>>>>>>> question? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to >>>>>>>> communicate our >>>>>>>> message in a way that will reach people through new >>>>>>>> technologies. >>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >>>>>>>> echjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Darian Smith >>>>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>>>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> — Robert Byrne >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>>>>>>> ydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>>>>>>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Darian Smith >>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>>> >>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>>> >>>>>> — Robert Byrne >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> — Robert Byrne >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri May 20 23:05:29 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 16:05:29 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <4dd6c8a8.4969e50a.463c.ffff89fb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Makes sense to me :) On 5/20/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Darian, > Good questions, to be sure. I think what it boils down to is are we > competing on terms of equality in the sighted world? In other words, > if we're employed or actively seeking employment training (and I'm not > judging those blind people who are unemployed through no fault of > their own), and if we're doing it in the way everyone else does, going > to school and working in the public, people will notice if we do it > well. That's the best way to atract interested people-a blind person > may approach you and say "where'd you get that confidence?", a TVI may > seek you out and ask how you're doing what your're doing, etc. In > other words, we live Federationism by example and those interested in > learning more will see we're different because we see ourselves as > regular people who happen to be blind. > I'm not saying we don't advertise-I'm just saying our lifestyles and > our confidence and our work in the sighted world should be our biggest > advertisement. > Hope that clarifies, > Kirt > > On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> Kirt, >> absolutely, but in what ways, how can weencourage ourselves to >> talk less and do more? and what does that "do more" look like ? >> >> On 5/20/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Darian, >>> We talk less, we do more. >>> >>> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> How do we communicate this message to the students we come acrossin >>>> our lives, camps, schools and the like? >>>> >>>> On 5/20/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>>> You're right. My point is that those who are suspicious of us may view >>>>> what >>>>> we say as vitriolic though we don't mean it so simply by virtue of the >>>>> radicality of our message. If you view blindness as a tragedy, denying >>>>> this >>>>> belief is blasphemy. >>>>> >>>>> Mike Freeman >>>>> sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 20, 2011, at 14:55, Kirt Manwaring >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Mike, >>>>>> I don't mean to be crass, but so what? Do we have to meet vitriol >>>>>> with vitriol, match them insult for insult? I think not. And we both >>>>>> know it's not the same world it used to be-even those who disagree >>>>>> with us usually take us seriously. What's that famous aphorism from >>>>>> FDR? Speak softly and carry a big stick? >>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>>> there were quite a few people on the call, most of them wished to >>>>>>> listen (which is just fine), while others elected to chime in. Some >>>>>>> were affiliate presidents, some were state student division >>>>>>> presidents, and some were nabs board members. >>>>>>> if some of them wish to contribute what discussions stood out to >>>>>>> them, that would be a good thing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One thing thatI thought stood out is the idea of taking the energy >>>>>>> of National/state convention and recreating that in our student >>>>>>> divisions. If you have ever gone to a convention, you find that >>>>>>> there is an energy and excitement around the event. A good part of >>>>>>> that is the reunion factor, while alot of it is the exchange of >>>>>>> ideas, the fellowship, the idea that we as blind people are not >>>>>>> alone >>>>>>> and at conventionit's brought into such a strong reality. >>>>>>> We see people with canes and dogs dressed up and going to various >>>>>>> meetings, seminars, events, fundraisers and banquet - that other >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> people with their canes and dogs run themselves. >>>>>>> I think this is a wonderful example of everything that we talk >>>>>>> about in practice, and Hopefully, this should inspire us to not >>>>>>> just >>>>>>> talk about what we believe the truth is about blindness, but practice >>>>>>> it, not only around each other at convention and at chapter meetings, >>>>>>> but with each other in public. This models blindness to the public >>>>>>> and to each other. >>>>>>> That's something I remember, and my little spin on what I took >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/20/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>> Chris, >>>>>>>> It's awesome you're on here. You're a case study of why it's good >>>>>>>> for students to get on board while they're young. Just out of >>>>>>>> curiosity, how were you introduced to the Federation? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/20/11, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >>>>>>>>> I agree completely, Kirt! Great points! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:57:10 -0600 >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Darian and all, >>>>>>>>> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission >>>>>>>>> teachers. >>>>>>>>> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, >>>>>>>>> itinerate >>>>>>>>> teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind >>>>>>>>> students, and their parents, first impressions about blindness >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> thus they have a huge influence on whatever expectations a >>>>>>>>> student or >>>>>>>>> parent develops about what is possible as a blind person. I >>>>>>>>> think we >>>>>>>>> need to put a lot more energy in to sincerely dialoguing with >>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>> teachers, especially the reasonable ones who don't agree with us >>>>>>>>> (I'm >>>>>>>>> not saying all teachers who disagree with us are reasonable), to >>>>>>>>> improve our image and the way we're presented to students. >>>>>>>>> Because my >>>>>>>>> state affiliate is pretty good at this, my TVI, although she >>>>>>>>> disagreed >>>>>>>>> with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't discourage me from coming >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> my own opinions and getting as much firsthand experience with the >>>>>>>>> Federation as I could. Even those blindness professionals who >>>>>>>>> disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a civil and >>>>>>>>> courteous >>>>>>>>> manner, direct students to our organization. It happened with >>>>>>>>> me. >>>>>>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what >>>>>>>>> you may >>>>>>>>> think needs improving?" >>>>>>>>> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a >>>>>>>>> matter >>>>>>>>> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, >>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are >>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the >>>>>>>>> answers! >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Darian >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>> I don't think we're doing enough with the >>>>>>>>> middleschool/elementary >>>>>>>>> population. >>>>>>>>> We need to get the message out faster, >>>>>>>>> to the younger kids. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think >>>>>>>>> about this >>>>>>>>> question? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to >>>>>>>>> communicate our >>>>>>>>> message in a way that will reach people through new >>>>>>>>> technologies. >>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>>>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >>>>>>>>> echjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>>>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Darian Smith >>>>>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>>>>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> — Robert Byrne >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>>>>>>>> ydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>>>>>>>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Darian Smith >>>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> — Robert Byrne >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Darian Smith >>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>> >>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>> >>>> — Robert Byrne >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> — Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Fri May 20 23:07:13 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 19:07:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Good luck with your endeavors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4dd6f425.a559e60a.5b8d.5387@mx.google.com> I wish you the best while you go after your goals. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 6:48 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good luck with your endeavors Best of luck! At some point, it is expected that most of, if not all of us may stepaway, but never too far away. It's always good to think about yourself while you think about others, and one daywe all have to truly consider ourselves to truly be happy. I wish you the best in acheving that complete happiness! Darian On 5/20/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > Dear Nabsters, > > I've not posted in weeks, but as many of you know, finals are a crazy, > crazy time of year. Though my post have often been few and far between > over the years, I've always enjoyed the lively discussions and plethora > of information. My husband and I are stepping down from our various > leadership positions so we can focus on personal, and professional > goals. We are not quitting the Federation altogether, but we are taking > a well deserved break. I wanted to say a few things before I take an > extended absence from this list. > > I graduate in August, but I'm applying to different MFA programs for > creative writing. I'm also interning with a public relations group this > summer, which, only two weeks in, and I'm already busy with projects up > to my eyes! *smile* My husband begins grad school in the fall, and we > both are searching for new employment opportunities. I hope the future > holds many more opportunities, and I'm figuring out what my next step > will be. My husband and I are excited about some opportunities looming > on the horizon including a family. We have reached a point when we want > to focus our energies on personal goals, and find the balance between > Federation involvement and everything else. The work we have > accomplished with the NFB means a lot to us, but it is now time to > accomplish goals for selfish reasons! *smile* > > As the future leaders in this organization, and the future voice of the > blind, I encourage each of you to work diligently towards your dreams. > Don't ever let anyone, including the NFB, tell you that your dreams are > impossible. Obstacles only exist because we allow them. Keep this in > mind, if it is difficult and scary, you are probably moving in the right > direction. > > Strive to achieve as much independence as possible. The blind have > limitations because society decided this long ago. We based our reality > on perceptions, not truth. As blind people, we can achieve whatever we > set our minds on. Let limitations be a thought of the past. > > Be efficient with your skills. Both partials and totals, prepare > yourself for each and every situation. Don't let fears, ignorance and > perceptions hold you back. Remember, the tools of the blind, Braille, > canes and dogs, adaptive technology, are not badges of the handicapped, > but are tools of the independent. Let's change the world's opinions by > insisting they accept us, and our tools and methods, as capable, equal > people. The better you are with the skills, the more success you will > achieve, and people will recognize that blind people are not less > capable. Your life is what you make it. If you grasp this, you will > find a whole new world open to you. > > Learn from your past, but don't dwell on it. We can't change what has > already happened. Grow from your experiences, but don't define your > future by any negativity from the past. Live in the moment, but always > think of the future. Your teens and twenties will fly by so chase your > dreams now. If one avenue ends and does not bring what you hoped for, > choose another route and keep moving. > > Do not allow blindness to define you. Blindness is but one part of you. > You are a full person who has a lot to offer. Blindness does not make > you completely different from anyone else, so don't let it become the > defining aspect of you. > > Please, please keep an open mind in all things. Don't be ruled by what > others tell you, or what you hear. Consider all sides before making > decisions. No single person, or organization, has all the answers. > Growth and change is good and should happen. With no growth, stagnancy > occurs, and no one is helped when there is no forward movement. > > Keep your own council, and learn to make your own decisions. > Questioning is not a bad thing. Do not be afraid to speak up and voice > concerns and suggestions. If your voice is silenced, consider finding a > new venue where your voice is appreciated. We expect the rest of the > world to open their minds about blindness, let's not close our minds in > return. Work to achieve true equality, which means sharing that > equality. Open your mind to new experiences and people, and don't allow > blindness to become a means of reverse prejudice. > > I'll still be around, and I may pop on the list from time to time, but I > hope we all experience bright things in our future. For anyone > interested, I will continue to advertise my blogs as many of you have > been awesome supporters. > > Good luck in all your endeavors. > > Bridgit Pollpeter > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.co m > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. - Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmai l.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1375 / Virus Database: 1509/3649 - Release Date: 05/20/11 From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Fri May 20 23:08:26 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 19:08:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <30830473-6911-469A-ADBB-1ECB048A64B1@gmail.com> <00b401cc1699$53396720$f9ac3560$@panix.com> Message-ID: <3C527872-DFB9-4C93-B615-FBA1D550A907@gmail.com> Hi Kirt: Agree completely. I think (and I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular), that there has been arrogance in some of our NFB members--weather in the leadership or out of it, which has damaged the whole organization. I'm saying its time we present ourselves in a calmer way. I'm not saying not to fight for our rights. If we lose our values we may as well lose the federation--our values is afterall what unites us, but we have to not have that "comply or I'll sue you" mentality, because honestly I'm getting the impression we sometimes don't even try and negotiate anything, and just sue companies without any kind of dialogue taking place outside of the court. Jorge On May 20, 2011, at 4:12 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Mike, > Very true. But, from my experience, a lot of that boils down to how > we present our philosophy. I've heard comments from some TVIS like > "they wouldn't even listen to me", "they acted like I didn't even > matter", "they ignored everything I said", etc. While I'm not denying > our philosophy places us in conflict with some TVIS (not as many as > some people like to think), I think if we present our philosophy in a > level-headed, civil, agreeable manner, even those who disagree with us > will be more compelled to do so agreeably. Making the conflict less > vitriolic and bitter would do a lot to improve the way we're presented > by TVIS, even many of the TVIS who don't agree with our philosophy. > That's all I'm saying-I'm not saying we compromise the tenets we hold > dear, I'm not saying we change our philosophy, only that we respect > and sincerely make an effort to at least listen to the philosophies of > others without letting emotions get in the way. > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> ... hate it when posts get cut off... >> Anyway, we should make the connection with TVIs, TTBs (whatever term >> you like to use) where we can and tell our story, or so I think. Have >> any folks found success in doing so in your respective divisions? >> >> what are ways people think we can do a better job as students in the >> organization of inviting younger students to get involved? how did you >> (if you are a middle/high school student) decide to get involved? >> >> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>> I think there are valid points to what both Mike and Kirt are saying. >>> However, I would think you could make that argument for any segment of >>> the blindness community, and I think that as members of student >>> divisions-( the population that TVIs serve) we should make more of an >>> effort wherever possible to reach those j population >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>> On the other hand, no matter how reasonably we present ourselves, our >>>> philosophy in and of itself is such a threat to some TVIs that their ears >>>> are closed. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Kirt Manwaring >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 6:57 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB >>>> >>>> Darian and all, >>>> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission teachers. >>>> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, itinerate >>>> teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind >>>> students, >>>> and their parents, first impressions about blindness and thus they have a >>>> huge influence on whatever expectations a student or parent develops >>>> about >>>> what is possible as a blind person. I think we need to put a lot more >>>> energy in to sincerely dialoguing with these teachers, especially the >>>> reasonable ones who don't agree with us (I'm not saying all teachers who >>>> disagree with us are reasonable), to improve our image and the way we're >>>> presented to students. Because my state affiliate is pretty good at >>>> this, >>>> my TVI, although she disagreed with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't >>>> discourage me from coming to my own opinions and getting as much >>>> firsthand >>>> experience with the Federation as I could. Even those blindness >>>> professionals who disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a >>>> civil >>>> and courteous manner, direct students to our organization. It happened >>>> with >>>> me. >>>> Warmest regards, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion is >>>>> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what you may >>>>> think needs improving?" >>>>> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit of >>>>> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a matter >>>>> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, this >>>>> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are also >>>>> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the answers! >>>>> Best, >>>>> Darian >>>>> >>>>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>> I don't think we're doing enough with the middleschool/elementary >>>>>> population. >>>>>> We need to get the message out faster, to the younger kids. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think about >>>>>>> this question? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, and >>>>>>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to communicate >>>>>>>> our message in a way that will reach people through new technologies. >>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%4 >>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertech >>>>>>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >>>>>> mail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Darian Smith >>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>> >>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>> >>>>> - Robert Byrne >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> — Robert Byrne >>> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> — Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Fri May 20 23:11:25 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 19:11:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government NotComplying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates In-Reply-To: <4518AC59-E142-4E48-8D60-0BAC6C06200E@panix.com> References: <4dd6c8b6.4969e50a.463c.ffff8a06@mx.google.com> <4518AC59-E142-4E48-8D60-0BAC6C06200E@panix.com> Message-ID: And unfortunately Mike, we are not the only ones. Sighted people do it too you know. If I can figure it out, its OK with me. On May 20, 2011, at 5:31 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > Some websites are technically accessible but require some savvy rather than being simple and straightforward. Unfortunately, blind people must learn both website layout and how to use their screen-reader's features to advantage. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 20, 2011, at 13:01, Âris Nusbaum wrote: > >> Huh? Two different things? Ease of access (accessibility,) or ease of use. Isn't that what we're talking about, being able to use it independently with a screen reader? Isn't that access? Maybe you (Mike) or someone else can explain this to me. >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Freeman" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:51:57 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government NotComplying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >> >> Actually, AMTRAK's site is accessible -- it just isn't useable -- they're >> two different things. >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Jorge Paez >> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:26 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying >> with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >> >> What screenreader are you using? >> >> On May 19, 2011, at 10:01 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >> This surprises me-not that I'm a government internet expert, but I've >> seen a lot of their sites and the only one that really gave me any >> trouble was Amtrak. >> >> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> From: David Andrews > Date: May 19, 2011 8:22:40 PM EDT >> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web >> Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >> Reply-To: "Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk >> Mailing List" > >> >> >> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >> >> >> >> CONTACT: >> Chris Danielsen >> Director of Public Relations >> National Federation of the Blind >> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >> cdanielsen at nfb.org >> >> Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site Accessibility >> Requirements, Study Indicates >> >> National Federation of the Blind Expresses Outrage, Demands Swift >> Action >> >> Baltimore, Maryland (May 19, 2011): A study that has just been >> published online in the journal >> Government >> Information Quarterly has found that of one-hundred Web sites >> operated by federal government agencies, over 90 percent do not >> comply with government accessibility guidelines and likely cannot >> be used by people who are blind or have other perceptual or motor >> disabilities. The study, entitled "Accessibility of U.S. federal >> government home pages: Section >> 508 compliance and site accessibility statements" and coauthored by >> Doctoral Student Abiodun Olalere and Professor Jonathan Lazar of >> Towson University, found that the home pages of over 90 percent of >> the Web sites they evaluated contained violations of the >> government's own guidelines for compliance with Section 508 of the >> Rehabilitation Act of 1973. That law requires that government >> electronic and information technology be accessible to people with >> disabilities. >> >> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, >> said: >> "Blind Americans are outraged that the government is failing to >> comply with its own guidelines to make government information and >> services available to citizens with disabilities. Given the clear >> legal requirements of Section 508 and the fact that use of the >> Internet is critical to education, employment, access to government >> benefits and services, and all other aspects of modern life, there >> is no excuse for failure to follow and rigorously enforce these >> guidelines. We demand that officials in all branches of government >> take immediate steps to bring all federal Web sites into compliance >> with the law, and we pledge to continue to hold the federal >> government accountable if it continues to treat the blind and others >> with disabilities as second-class citizens." >> >> The study evaluated the home pages of one-hundred government Web >> sites across all three branches of the federal government, >> including executive agencies, independent agencies, government >> corporations (e.g. Amtrak), the United States Congress, the United >> States Supreme Court, United States federal courts, and "open >> government" Web sites like www.usajobs.gov >> and www.ready.gov. The authors utilized both >> automated-software tools and human-expert inspections on each home >> page, and determined that over 90 percent of the home pages were >> not in compliance with the Section 508 regulations. >> >> Most of the accessibility problems were common ones that are easily >> resolved, such as unlabeled images, mislabeled forms or tables, >> videos without captioning, flash without any textual equivalents, >> and lack of keyboard equivalents for mouse-over actions. The >> authors noted that this is not a problem unique to one agency. >> Similar problems occur on multiple agency Web sites, and the core >> problem is the lack of consistent compliance activities and enforcement >> throughout the federal government. >> >> The study makes several recommendations to increase compliance, >> including improved resources on complying with the guidelines; >> better documentation of best practices; publishing of information >> about which agencies are compliant and noncompliant with >> accessibility guidelines as part of the open government dashboard; >> and better enforcement and monitoring procedures within government >> agencies, such as the loss of Web-posting privileges for repeatedly >> posting inaccessible content. >> >> >> ### >> >> >> About the National Federation of the Blind >> >> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >> is the largest and most influential membership organization of >> blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's >> lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and >> programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the >> leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the >> nation's blind. In January >> 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan >> Institute, the first research and training center in the United >> States for the blind led by the blind. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gui-talk mailing list >> gui-talk at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> gui-talk: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/compute >> rte >> chjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >> ydud >> e%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >> echjo >> rgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Fri May 20 23:12:27 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 19:12:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complyingwith Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates In-Reply-To: <65842178-AA7E-4E69-BAE3-566EFED845C2@panix.com> References: <4dd6c8a9.4969e50a.463c.ffff89fc@mx.google.com> <65842178-AA7E-4E69-BAE3-566EFED845C2@panix.com> Message-ID: Duable is the key here. Its Doable. We can't ask for everything to be soooooooooooo obvious, companies are going to stop listening to us if we request special treatment. On May 20, 2011, at 5:33 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > It's doable but awkward. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 20, 2011, at 13:01, Âris Nusbaum wrote: > >> Wow, Amtrak? That's one of the important ones that blind people would need to access, in my opinion. Probably blind people in urban areas use Amtrak all the time. >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kirt Manwaring > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 20:01:33 -0600 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complyingwith Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >> >> This surprises me-not that I'm a government internet expert, but I've >> seen a lot of their sites and the only one that really gave me any >> trouble was Amtrak. >> >> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> From: David Andrews > Date: May 19, 2011 8:22:40 PM EDT >> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site >> Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >> Reply-To: "Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk Mailing >> List" > >> >> >> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >> >> >> >> CONTACT: >> Chris Danielsen >> Director of Public Relations >> National Federation of the Blind >> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >> cdanielsen at nfb.org >> >> Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site >> Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >> >> National Federation of the Blind Expresses Outrage, Demands Swift Action >> >> Baltimore, Maryland (May 19, 2011): A study that has just been published >> online in the journal >> Government >> Information Quarterly has found that of one-hundred Web sites operated by >> federal government agencies, over 90 percent do not comply with >> government accessibility guidelines and likely cannot be used by people >> who are blind or have other perceptual or motor disabilities. The study, >> entitled "Accessibility of U.S. federal government home pages: Section >> 508 compliance and site accessibility statements" and coauthored by >> Doctoral Student Abiodun Olalere and Professor Jonathan Lazar of Towson >> University, found that the home pages of over 90 percent of the Web sites >> they evaluated contained violations of the government's own guidelines >> for compliance with Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. That >> law requires that government electronic and information technology be >> accessible to people with disabilities. >> >> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: >> "Blind Americans are outraged that the government is failing to comply >> with its own guidelines to make government information and services >> available to citizens with disabilities. Given the clear legal >> requirements of Section 508 and the fact that use of the Internet is >> critical to education, employment, access to government benefits and >> services, and all other aspects of modern life, there is no excuse for >> failure to follow and rigorously enforce these guidelines. We demand >> that officials in all branches of government take immediate steps to >> bring all federal Web sites into compliance with the law, and we pledge >> to continue to hold the federal government accountable if it continues to >> treat the blind and others with disabilities as second-class citizens." >> >> The study evaluated the home pages of one-hundred government Web sites >> across all three branches of the federal government, including executive >> agencies, independent agencies, government corporations (e.g. Amtrak), >> the United States Congress, the United States Supreme Court, United >> States federal courts, and "open government" Web sites like >> www.usajobs.gov and >> www.ready.gov. The authors utilized both >> automated-software tools and human-expert inspections on each home page, >> and determined that over 90 percent of the home pages were not in >> compliance with the Section 508 regulations. >> >> Most of the accessibility problems were common ones that are easily >> resolved, such as unlabeled images, mislabeled forms or tables, videos >> without captioning, flash without any textual equivalents, and lack of >> keyboard equivalents for mouse-over actions. The authors noted that this >> is not a problem unique to one agency. Similar problems occur on >> multiple agency Web sites, and the core problem is the lack of consistent >> compliance activities and enforcement throughout the federal government. >> >> The study makes several recommendations to increase compliance, including >> improved resources on complying with the guidelines; better documentation >> of best practices; publishing of information about which agencies are >> compliant and noncompliant with accessibility guidelines as part of the >> open government dashboard; and better enforcement and monitoring >> procedures within government agencies, such as the loss of Web-posting >> privileges for repeatedly posting inaccessible content. >> >> >> ### >> >> >> About the National Federation of the Blind >> >> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is >> the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people >> in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through >> advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging >> independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the >> blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January >> 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan >> Institute, the first research and training center in the United States >> for the blind led by the blind. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gui-talk mailing list >> gui-talk at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> gui-talk: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/compute >> rtechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >> ydude%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri May 20 23:27:40 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 17:27:40 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complyingwith Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates In-Reply-To: References: <4dd6c8a9.4969e50a.463c.ffff89fc@mx.google.com> <65842178-AA7E-4E69-BAE3-566EFED845C2@panix.com> Message-ID: Jorge, Just because you, me, Mike and Bryce (who are all fairly advanced computer users) can do it, that doesn't mean all blind people can. I guess you could argue that not every sighted person knows how to use the internet but I think with usability, ease of access ought to be addressed-both from a market standpoint and a legal standpoint. On 5/20/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > Duable is the key here. > Its Doable. > We can't ask for everything to be soooooooooooo obvious, > companies are going to stop listening to us if we request special treatment. > > > On May 20, 2011, at 5:33 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > >> It's doable but awkward. >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 13:01, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >> >>> Wow, Amtrak? That's one of the important ones that blind people would >>> need to access, in my opinion. Probably blind people in urban areas use >>> Amtrak all the time. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>> >>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 20:01:33 -0600 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not >>> Complyingwith Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >>> >>> This surprises me-not that I'm a government internet expert, but I've >>> seen a lot of their sites and the only one that really gave me any >>> trouble was Amtrak. >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> From: David Andrews >> Date: May 19, 2011 8:22:40 PM EDT >>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site >>> Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >>> Reply-To: "Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk Mailing >>> List" >> >>> >>> >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> Chris Danielsen >>> Director of Public Relations >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site >>> Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind Expresses Outrage, Demands Swift Action >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (May 19, 2011): A study that has just been published >>> online in the journal >>> Government >>> Information Quarterly has found that of one-hundred Web sites operated by >>> federal government agencies, over 90 percent do not comply with >>> government accessibility guidelines and likely cannot be used by people >>> who are blind or have other perceptual or motor disabilities. The study, >>> entitled "Accessibility of U.S. federal government home pages: Section >>> 508 compliance and site accessibility statements" and coauthored by >>> Doctoral Student Abiodun Olalere and Professor Jonathan Lazar of Towson >>> University, found that the home pages of over 90 percent of the Web sites >>> they evaluated contained violations of the government's own guidelines >>> for compliance with Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. That >>> law requires that government electronic and information technology be >>> accessible to people with disabilities. >>> >>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, >>> said: >>> "Blind Americans are outraged that the government is failing to comply >>> with its own guidelines to make government information and services >>> available to citizens with disabilities. Given the clear legal >>> requirements of Section 508 and the fact that use of the Internet is >>> critical to education, employment, access to government benefits and >>> services, and all other aspects of modern life, there is no excuse for >>> failure to follow and rigorously enforce these guidelines. We demand >>> that officials in all branches of government take immediate steps to >>> bring all federal Web sites into compliance with the law, and we pledge >>> to continue to hold the federal government accountable if it continues to >>> treat the blind and others with disabilities as second-class citizens." >>> >>> The study evaluated the home pages of one-hundred government Web sites >>> across all three branches of the federal government, including executive >>> agencies, independent agencies, government corporations (e.g. Amtrak), >>> the United States Congress, the United States Supreme Court, United >>> States federal courts, and "open government" Web sites like >>> www.usajobs.gov and >>> www.ready.gov. The authors utilized both >>> automated-software tools and human-expert inspections on each home page, >>> and determined that over 90 percent of the home pages were not in >>> compliance with the Section 508 regulations. >>> >>> Most of the accessibility problems were common ones that are easily >>> resolved, such as unlabeled images, mislabeled forms or tables, videos >>> without captioning, flash without any textual equivalents, and lack of >>> keyboard equivalents for mouse-over actions. The authors noted that this >>> is not a problem unique to one agency. Similar problems occur on >>> multiple agency Web sites, and the core problem is the lack of consistent >>> compliance activities and enforcement throughout the federal government. >>> >>> The study makes several recommendations to increase compliance, including >>> improved resources on complying with the guidelines; better documentation >>> of best practices; publishing of information about which agencies are >>> compliant and noncompliant with accessibility guidelines as part of the >>> open government dashboard; and better enforcement and monitoring >>> procedures within government agencies, such as the loss of Web-posting >>> privileges for repeatedly posting inaccessible content. >>> >>> >>> ### >>> >>> >>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is >>> the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people >>> in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through >>> advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging >>> independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the >>> blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January >>> 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan >>> Institute, the first research and training center in the United States >>> for the blind led by the blind. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gui-talk mailing list >>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> gui-talk: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/compute >>> rtechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>> ydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri May 20 23:33:21 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 17:33:21 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: <3C527872-DFB9-4C93-B615-FBA1D550A907@gmail.com> References: <30830473-6911-469A-ADBB-1ECB048A64B1@gmail.com> <00b401cc1699$53396720$f9ac3560$@panix.com> <3C527872-DFB9-4C93-B615-FBA1D550A907@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jorge, Well said. But we don't see all the dialogue and negotiations that go on behind the scenes before something goes to court. Legal representation isn't cheap (even for the NFB), court proceedings are timely and cumbersome-noone wants to go to court if it can be avoided. NFB included. Maybe we could do a better job publicizing the dialogue we go through with people before we're compelled to go to court. I'm not saying I agree with every suit the Federation's been involved in of late. But there are two sides to this issue and, more often than not, suits are made only after efforts to go through dialogue and mediation have proved fruitless. I'm sure the Federation isn't an exception to that rule-perhaps someone more familiar with the inner workings of national NFB politics can shed some light here. Warmly, Kirt P.S. Jorge, I agree with most of your message-just the part about suits made me want to open my big mouth. *grin* On 5/20/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > Hi Kirt: > Agree completely. > I think (and I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular), that there has > been arrogance in some of our NFB members--weather in the leadership or out > of it, which has damaged the whole organization. > I'm saying its time we present ourselves in a calmer way. > I'm not saying not to fight for our rights. > If we lose our values we may as well lose the federation--our values is > afterall what unites us, but we have to not have that "comply or I'll sue > you" mentality, because honestly I'm getting the impression we sometimes > don't even try and negotiate anything, and just sue companies without any > kind of dialogue taking place outside of the court. > > Jorge > > > On May 20, 2011, at 4:12 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >> Mike, >> Very true. But, from my experience, a lot of that boils down to how >> we present our philosophy. I've heard comments from some TVIS like >> "they wouldn't even listen to me", "they acted like I didn't even >> matter", "they ignored everything I said", etc. While I'm not denying >> our philosophy places us in conflict with some TVIS (not as many as >> some people like to think), I think if we present our philosophy in a >> level-headed, civil, agreeable manner, even those who disagree with us >> will be more compelled to do so agreeably. Making the conflict less >> vitriolic and bitter would do a lot to improve the way we're presented >> by TVIS, even many of the TVIS who don't agree with our philosophy. >> That's all I'm saying-I'm not saying we compromise the tenets we hold >> dear, I'm not saying we change our philosophy, only that we respect >> and sincerely make an effort to at least listen to the philosophies of >> others without letting emotions get in the way. >> Warmly, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>> ... hate it when posts get cut off... >>> Anyway, we should make the connection with TVIs, TTBs (whatever term >>> you like to use) where we can and tell our story, or so I think. Have >>> any folks found success in doing so in your respective divisions? >>> >>> what are ways people think we can do a better job as students in the >>> organization of inviting younger students to get involved? how did you >>> (if you are a middle/high school student) decide to get involved? >>> >>> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> I think there are valid points to what both Mike and Kirt are saying. >>>> However, I would think you could make that argument for any segment of >>>> the blindness community, and I think that as members of student >>>> divisions-( the population that TVIs serve) we should make more of an >>>> effort wherever possible to reach those j population >>>> >>>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>>> On the other hand, no matter how reasonably we present ourselves, our >>>>> philosophy in and of itself is such a threat to some TVIs that their >>>>> ears >>>>> are closed. >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Kirt Manwaring >>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 6:57 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB >>>>> >>>>> Darian and all, >>>>> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission teachers. >>>>> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, itinerate >>>>> teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind >>>>> students, >>>>> and their parents, first impressions about blindness and thus they have >>>>> a >>>>> huge influence on whatever expectations a student or parent develops >>>>> about >>>>> what is possible as a blind person. I think we need to put a lot more >>>>> energy in to sincerely dialoguing with these teachers, especially the >>>>> reasonable ones who don't agree with us (I'm not saying all teachers >>>>> who >>>>> disagree with us are reasonable), to improve our image and the way >>>>> we're >>>>> presented to students. Because my state affiliate is pretty good at >>>>> this, >>>>> my TVI, although she disagreed with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't >>>>> discourage me from coming to my own opinions and getting as much >>>>> firsthand >>>>> experience with the Federation as I could. Even those blindness >>>>> professionals who disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a >>>>> civil >>>>> and courteous manner, direct students to our organization. It happened >>>>> with >>>>> me. >>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion is >>>>>> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what you may >>>>>> think needs improving?" >>>>>> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit of >>>>>> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a matter >>>>>> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, this >>>>>> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are also >>>>>> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the answers! >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Darian >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>> I don't think we're doing enough with the middleschool/elementary >>>>>>> population. >>>>>>> We need to get the message out faster, to the younger kids. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think about >>>>>>>> this question? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, and >>>>>>>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to communicate >>>>>>>>> our message in a way that will reach people through new >>>>>>>>> technologies. >>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%4 >>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertech >>>>>>>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Darian Smith >>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>>>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>>> >>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>>> >>>>>> - Robert Byrne >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Darian Smith >>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>> >>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>> >>>> — Robert Byrne >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> — Robert Byrne >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri May 20 23:34:48 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 16:34:48 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: <3C527872-DFB9-4C93-B615-FBA1D550A907@gmail.com> References: <30830473-6911-469A-ADBB-1ECB048A64B1@gmail.com> <00b401cc1699$53396720$f9ac3560$@panix.com> <3C527872-DFB9-4C93-B615-FBA1D550A907@gmail.com> Message-ID: >From observation, it seems like depending upon the generation you grew up in, you'll see adifference in point of view on a subject. Now, I can be wrong, and it really won't hurt my feelings. The nice thing about having people in the organization that have been around for a while, and people who have been around for a little bit, is that you get many different points of view. This isn't to say that you'll find a point of view that calls for a fundimental change in philosiphy, rather you might see some question why things are why they are. I think that asking questions is healthy and being allowed to do so enables those who are new, and those who may not be so new to the federation to explore what we see and know as our truths. it seems like, we as human beings feel more comfortable when we can question and explore our environments without fear of threatening then or ourselves being threatened. I guess I will stop with this... philosiphy is to be debated, it is to be challanged and analyzed. some of our best thinkers were philosiphors, and they themselves questioned what was established. We can still do these things and keep our eyes on the prize- what the National Federation of the Blind does and always has stood for. just some thoughts respectfully, Darian On 5/20/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > Hi Kirt: > Agree completely. > I think (and I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular), that there has > been arrogance in some of our NFB members--weather in the leadership or out > of it, which has damaged the whole organization. > I'm saying its time we present ourselves in a calmer way. > I'm not saying not to fight for our rights. > If we lose our values we may as well lose the federation--our values is > afterall what unites us, but we have to not have that "comply or I'll sue > you" mentality, because honestly I'm getting the impression we sometimes > don't even try and negotiate anything, and just sue companies without any > kind of dialogue taking place outside of the court. > > Jorge > > > On May 20, 2011, at 4:12 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >> Mike, >> Very true. But, from my experience, a lot of that boils down to how >> we present our philosophy. I've heard comments from some TVIS like >> "they wouldn't even listen to me", "they acted like I didn't even >> matter", "they ignored everything I said", etc. While I'm not denying >> our philosophy places us in conflict with some TVIS (not as many as >> some people like to think), I think if we present our philosophy in a >> level-headed, civil, agreeable manner, even those who disagree with us >> will be more compelled to do so agreeably. Making the conflict less >> vitriolic and bitter would do a lot to improve the way we're presented >> by TVIS, even many of the TVIS who don't agree with our philosophy. >> That's all I'm saying-I'm not saying we compromise the tenets we hold >> dear, I'm not saying we change our philosophy, only that we respect >> and sincerely make an effort to at least listen to the philosophies of >> others without letting emotions get in the way. >> Warmly, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>> ... hate it when posts get cut off... >>> Anyway, we should make the connection with TVIs, TTBs (whatever term >>> you like to use) where we can and tell our story, or so I think. Have >>> any folks found success in doing so in your respective divisions? >>> >>> what are ways people think we can do a better job as students in the >>> organization of inviting younger students to get involved? how did you >>> (if you are a middle/high school student) decide to get involved? >>> >>> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> I think there are valid points to what both Mike and Kirt are saying. >>>> However, I would think you could make that argument for any segment of >>>> the blindness community, and I think that as members of student >>>> divisions-( the population that TVIs serve) we should make more of an >>>> effort wherever possible to reach those j population >>>> >>>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>>> On the other hand, no matter how reasonably we present ourselves, our >>>>> philosophy in and of itself is such a threat to some TVIs that their >>>>> ears >>>>> are closed. >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Kirt Manwaring >>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 6:57 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB >>>>> >>>>> Darian and all, >>>>> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission teachers. >>>>> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, itinerate >>>>> teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind >>>>> students, >>>>> and their parents, first impressions about blindness and thus they have >>>>> a >>>>> huge influence on whatever expectations a student or parent develops >>>>> about >>>>> what is possible as a blind person. I think we need to put a lot more >>>>> energy in to sincerely dialoguing with these teachers, especially the >>>>> reasonable ones who don't agree with us (I'm not saying all teachers >>>>> who >>>>> disagree with us are reasonable), to improve our image and the way >>>>> we're >>>>> presented to students. Because my state affiliate is pretty good at >>>>> this, >>>>> my TVI, although she disagreed with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't >>>>> discourage me from coming to my own opinions and getting as much >>>>> firsthand >>>>> experience with the Federation as I could. Even those blindness >>>>> professionals who disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a >>>>> civil >>>>> and courteous manner, direct students to our organization. It happened >>>>> with >>>>> me. >>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion is >>>>>> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what you may >>>>>> think needs improving?" >>>>>> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit of >>>>>> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a matter >>>>>> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, this >>>>>> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are also >>>>>> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the answers! >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Darian >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>> I don't think we're doing enough with the middleschool/elementary >>>>>>> population. >>>>>>> We need to get the message out faster, to the younger kids. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think about >>>>>>>> this question? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, and >>>>>>>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to communicate >>>>>>>>> our message in a way that will reach people through new >>>>>>>>> technologies. >>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%4 >>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertech >>>>>>>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Darian Smith >>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>>>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>>> >>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>>> >>>>>> - Robert Byrne >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Darian Smith >>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>> >>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>> >>>> — Robert Byrne >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> — Robert Byrne >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Fri May 20 23:50:37 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 19:50:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <30830473-6911-469A-ADBB-1ECB048A64B1@gmail.com> <00b401cc1699$53396720$f9ac3560$@panix.com> <3C527872-DFB9-4C93-B615-FBA1D550A907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8A8DFE20-E9CC-462D-AE7E-F01BD410E8BA@gmail.com> Kirt: I'm kinda taking this at face value, since the NFB has never refered to any negotiations before suing anyone. If however there is obvious negotiations before the law suit then that's a different story. On May 20, 2011, at 7:33 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Jorge, > Well said. But we don't see all the dialogue and negotiations that > go on behind the scenes before something goes to court. Legal > representation isn't cheap (even for the NFB), court proceedings are > timely and cumbersome-noone wants to go to court if it can be avoided. > NFB included. Maybe we could do a better job publicizing the > dialogue we go through with people before we're compelled to go to > court. > I'm not saying I agree with every suit the Federation's been > involved in of late. But there are two sides to this issue and, more > often than not, suits are made only after efforts to go through > dialogue and mediation have proved fruitless. I'm sure the Federation > isn't an exception to that rule-perhaps someone more familiar with the > inner workings of national NFB politics can shed some light here. > Warmly, > Kirt > P.S. Jorge, I agree with most of your message-just the part about > suits made me want to open my big mouth. *grin* > > On 5/20/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> Hi Kirt: >> Agree completely. >> I think (and I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular), that there has >> been arrogance in some of our NFB members--weather in the leadership or out >> of it, which has damaged the whole organization. >> I'm saying its time we present ourselves in a calmer way. >> I'm not saying not to fight for our rights. >> If we lose our values we may as well lose the federation--our values is >> afterall what unites us, but we have to not have that "comply or I'll sue >> you" mentality, because honestly I'm getting the impression we sometimes >> don't even try and negotiate anything, and just sue companies without any >> kind of dialogue taking place outside of the court. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 4:12 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >>> Mike, >>> Very true. But, from my experience, a lot of that boils down to how >>> we present our philosophy. I've heard comments from some TVIS like >>> "they wouldn't even listen to me", "they acted like I didn't even >>> matter", "they ignored everything I said", etc. While I'm not denying >>> our philosophy places us in conflict with some TVIS (not as many as >>> some people like to think), I think if we present our philosophy in a >>> level-headed, civil, agreeable manner, even those who disagree with us >>> will be more compelled to do so agreeably. Making the conflict less >>> vitriolic and bitter would do a lot to improve the way we're presented >>> by TVIS, even many of the TVIS who don't agree with our philosophy. >>> That's all I'm saying-I'm not saying we compromise the tenets we hold >>> dear, I'm not saying we change our philosophy, only that we respect >>> and sincerely make an effort to at least listen to the philosophies of >>> others without letting emotions get in the way. >>> Warmly, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> ... hate it when posts get cut off... >>>> Anyway, we should make the connection with TVIs, TTBs (whatever term >>>> you like to use) where we can and tell our story, or so I think. Have >>>> any folks found success in doing so in your respective divisions? >>>> >>>> what are ways people think we can do a better job as students in the >>>> organization of inviting younger students to get involved? how did you >>>> (if you are a middle/high school student) decide to get involved? >>>> >>>> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>> I think there are valid points to what both Mike and Kirt are saying. >>>>> However, I would think you could make that argument for any segment of >>>>> the blindness community, and I think that as members of student >>>>> divisions-( the population that TVIs serve) we should make more of an >>>>> effort wherever possible to reach those j population >>>>> >>>>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>>>> On the other hand, no matter how reasonably we present ourselves, our >>>>>> philosophy in and of itself is such a threat to some TVIs that their >>>>>> ears >>>>>> are closed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> Of Kirt Manwaring >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 6:57 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB >>>>>> >>>>>> Darian and all, >>>>>> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission teachers. >>>>>> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, itinerate >>>>>> teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind >>>>>> students, >>>>>> and their parents, first impressions about blindness and thus they have >>>>>> a >>>>>> huge influence on whatever expectations a student or parent develops >>>>>> about >>>>>> what is possible as a blind person. I think we need to put a lot more >>>>>> energy in to sincerely dialoguing with these teachers, especially the >>>>>> reasonable ones who don't agree with us (I'm not saying all teachers >>>>>> who >>>>>> disagree with us are reasonable), to improve our image and the way >>>>>> we're >>>>>> presented to students. Because my state affiliate is pretty good at >>>>>> this, >>>>>> my TVI, although she disagreed with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't >>>>>> discourage me from coming to my own opinions and getting as much >>>>>> firsthand >>>>>> experience with the Federation as I could. Even those blindness >>>>>> professionals who disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a >>>>>> civil >>>>>> and courteous manner, direct students to our organization. It happened >>>>>> with >>>>>> me. >>>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>>> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion is >>>>>>> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what you may >>>>>>> think needs improving?" >>>>>>> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit of >>>>>>> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a matter >>>>>>> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, this >>>>>>> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are also >>>>>>> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the answers! >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Darian >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>> I don't think we're doing enough with the middleschool/elementary >>>>>>>> population. >>>>>>>> We need to get the message out faster, to the younger kids. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think about >>>>>>>>> this question? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, and >>>>>>>>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to communicate >>>>>>>>>> our message in a way that will reach people through new >>>>>>>>>> technologies. >>>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%4 >>>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertech >>>>>>>>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Darian Smith >>>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - Robert Byrne >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude >>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Darian Smith >>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>> >>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>> >>>>> — Robert Byrne >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Darian Smith >>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>> >>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>> >>>> — Robert Byrne >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat May 21 00:13:11 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 18:13:11 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: <8A8DFE20-E9CC-462D-AE7E-F01BD410E8BA@gmail.com> References: <30830473-6911-469A-ADBB-1ECB048A64B1@gmail.com> <00b401cc1699$53396720$f9ac3560$@panix.com> <3C527872-DFB9-4C93-B615-FBA1D550A907@gmail.com> <8A8DFE20-E9CC-462D-AE7E-F01BD410E8BA@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jorge, That's just standard procedure for any organization and, from talking with people in the thick of the politics, I've gotten the impression that the NFB isn't any different. As a general rule, any organization with a grievance against another entity will first dialogue, then file a complaint, then look for a settlement-assuming a settlement isn't reached, then the case goes to court. That's pretty much standard legal procedure, and I'd be shocked if the NFB jumps straight to suits whenever the opportunity presents itself. Darian, Amen! Warmly, Kirt On 5/20/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > Kirt: > I'm kinda taking this at face value, since the NFB has never refered to any > negotiations before suing anyone. > If however there is obvious negotiations before the law suit then that's a > different story. > > On May 20, 2011, at 7:33 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >> Jorge, >> Well said. But we don't see all the dialogue and negotiations that >> go on behind the scenes before something goes to court. Legal >> representation isn't cheap (even for the NFB), court proceedings are >> timely and cumbersome-noone wants to go to court if it can be avoided. >> NFB included. Maybe we could do a better job publicizing the >> dialogue we go through with people before we're compelled to go to >> court. >> I'm not saying I agree with every suit the Federation's been >> involved in of late. But there are two sides to this issue and, more >> often than not, suits are made only after efforts to go through >> dialogue and mediation have proved fruitless. I'm sure the Federation >> isn't an exception to that rule-perhaps someone more familiar with the >> inner workings of national NFB politics can shed some light here. >> Warmly, >> Kirt >> P.S. Jorge, I agree with most of your message-just the part about >> suits made me want to open my big mouth. *grin* >> >> On 5/20/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> Hi Kirt: >>> Agree completely. >>> I think (and I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular), that there has >>> been arrogance in some of our NFB members--weather in the leadership or >>> out >>> of it, which has damaged the whole organization. >>> I'm saying its time we present ourselves in a calmer way. >>> I'm not saying not to fight for our rights. >>> If we lose our values we may as well lose the federation--our values is >>> afterall what unites us, but we have to not have that "comply or I'll sue >>> you" mentality, because honestly I'm getting the impression we sometimes >>> don't even try and negotiate anything, and just sue companies without any >>> kind of dialogue taking place outside of the court. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> On May 20, 2011, at 4:12 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> >>>> Mike, >>>> Very true. But, from my experience, a lot of that boils down to how >>>> we present our philosophy. I've heard comments from some TVIS like >>>> "they wouldn't even listen to me", "they acted like I didn't even >>>> matter", "they ignored everything I said", etc. While I'm not denying >>>> our philosophy places us in conflict with some TVIS (not as many as >>>> some people like to think), I think if we present our philosophy in a >>>> level-headed, civil, agreeable manner, even those who disagree with us >>>> will be more compelled to do so agreeably. Making the conflict less >>>> vitriolic and bitter would do a lot to improve the way we're presented >>>> by TVIS, even many of the TVIS who don't agree with our philosophy. >>>> That's all I'm saying-I'm not saying we compromise the tenets we hold >>>> dear, I'm not saying we change our philosophy, only that we respect >>>> and sincerely make an effort to at least listen to the philosophies of >>>> others without letting emotions get in the way. >>>> Warmly, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>> ... hate it when posts get cut off... >>>>> Anyway, we should make the connection with TVIs, TTBs (whatever term >>>>> you like to use) where we can and tell our story, or so I think. Have >>>>> any folks found success in doing so in your respective divisions? >>>>> >>>>> what are ways people think we can do a better job as students in the >>>>> organization of inviting younger students to get involved? how did you >>>>> (if you are a middle/high school student) decide to get involved? >>>>> >>>>> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>> I think there are valid points to what both Mike and Kirt are saying. >>>>>> However, I would think you could make that argument for any segment of >>>>>> the blindness community, and I think that as members of student >>>>>> divisions-( the population that TVIs serve) we should make more of an >>>>>> effort wherever possible to reach those j population >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>>>>> On the other hand, no matter how reasonably we present ourselves, our >>>>>>> philosophy in and of itself is such a threat to some TVIs that their >>>>>>> ears >>>>>>> are closed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of Kirt Manwaring >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 6:57 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Darian and all, >>>>>>> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission teachers. >>>>>>> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, itinerate >>>>>>> teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind >>>>>>> students, >>>>>>> and their parents, first impressions about blindness and thus they >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> huge influence on whatever expectations a student or parent develops >>>>>>> about >>>>>>> what is possible as a blind person. I think we need to put a lot >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> energy in to sincerely dialoguing with these teachers, especially the >>>>>>> reasonable ones who don't agree with us (I'm not saying all teachers >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> disagree with us are reasonable), to improve our image and the way >>>>>>> we're >>>>>>> presented to students. Because my state affiliate is pretty good at >>>>>>> this, >>>>>>> my TVI, although she disagreed with a lot of what the NFB does, >>>>>>> didn't >>>>>>> discourage me from coming to my own opinions and getting as much >>>>>>> firsthand >>>>>>> experience with the Federation as I could. Even those blindness >>>>>>> professionals who disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a >>>>>>> civil >>>>>>> and courteous manner, direct students to our organization. It >>>>>>> happened >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> me. >>>>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>>>> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion is >>>>>>>> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what you >>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>> think needs improving?" >>>>>>>> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit of >>>>>>>> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a >>>>>>>> matter >>>>>>>> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are also >>>>>>>> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the >>>>>>>> answers! >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Darian >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>> I don't think we're doing enough with the middleschool/elementary >>>>>>>>> population. >>>>>>>>> We need to get the message out faster, to the younger kids. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think about >>>>>>>>>> this question? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to communicate >>>>>>>>>>> our message in a way that will reach people through new >>>>>>>>>>> technologies. >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%4 >>>>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertech >>>>>>>>>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Darian Smith >>>>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - Robert Byrne >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude >>>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Darian Smith >>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>>> >>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>>> >>>>>> — Robert Byrne >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Darian Smith >>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>> >>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>> >>>>> — Robert Byrne >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sat May 21 00:25:00 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 20:25:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction Message-ID: <4dd7068d.81a5e60a.15cc.5689@mx.google.com> Hi all, I'm a little curious here, what do people think on this? For us blind students who are about to graduate from high school soon (I'm a junior this year and will be a senior next) college is something some of us look into. So, my question: Do people think that online college is more accessible for blind people, or classroom instruction? If I may ask, what have people's experiences been with both? What about a person who is blind and partially in a wheelchair such as myself, could I manage in an on-campus environment or would online instruction be better for me? Thanks so much, Josh Sent from my Apex From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sat May 21 00:30:39 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 20:30:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <30830473-6911-469A-ADBB-1ECB048A64B1@gmail.com> <00b401cc1699$53396720$f9ac3560$@panix.com> <3C527872-DFB9-4C93-B615-FBA1D550A907@gmail.com> <8A8DFE20-E9CC-462D-AE7E-F01BD410E8BA@gmail.com> Message-ID: and in the Google case? The only thing that was required if I uunderstand the Gmail interfase was a minor change in the HTML settings. On May 20, 2011, at 8:13 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Jorge, > That's just standard procedure for any organization and, from > talking with people in the thick of the politics, I've gotten the > impression that the NFB isn't any different. As a general rule, any > organization with a grievance against another entity will first > dialogue, then file a complaint, then look for a settlement-assuming a > settlement isn't reached, then the case goes to court. That's pretty > much standard legal procedure, and I'd be shocked if the NFB jumps > straight to suits whenever the opportunity presents itself. > Darian, > Amen! > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/20/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> Kirt: >> I'm kinda taking this at face value, since the NFB has never refered to any >> negotiations before suing anyone. >> If however there is obvious negotiations before the law suit then that's a >> different story. >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 7:33 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >>> Jorge, >>> Well said. But we don't see all the dialogue and negotiations that >>> go on behind the scenes before something goes to court. Legal >>> representation isn't cheap (even for the NFB), court proceedings are >>> timely and cumbersome-noone wants to go to court if it can be avoided. >>> NFB included. Maybe we could do a better job publicizing the >>> dialogue we go through with people before we're compelled to go to >>> court. >>> I'm not saying I agree with every suit the Federation's been >>> involved in of late. But there are two sides to this issue and, more >>> often than not, suits are made only after efforts to go through >>> dialogue and mediation have proved fruitless. I'm sure the Federation >>> isn't an exception to that rule-perhaps someone more familiar with the >>> inner workings of national NFB politics can shed some light here. >>> Warmly, >>> Kirt >>> P.S. Jorge, I agree with most of your message-just the part about >>> suits made me want to open my big mouth. *grin* >>> >>> On 5/20/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> Hi Kirt: >>>> Agree completely. >>>> I think (and I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular), that there has >>>> been arrogance in some of our NFB members--weather in the leadership or >>>> out >>>> of it, which has damaged the whole organization. >>>> I'm saying its time we present ourselves in a calmer way. >>>> I'm not saying not to fight for our rights. >>>> If we lose our values we may as well lose the federation--our values is >>>> afterall what unites us, but we have to not have that "comply or I'll sue >>>> you" mentality, because honestly I'm getting the impression we sometimes >>>> don't even try and negotiate anything, and just sue companies without any >>>> kind of dialogue taking place outside of the court. >>>> >>>> Jorge >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 20, 2011, at 4:12 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> >>>>> Mike, >>>>> Very true. But, from my experience, a lot of that boils down to how >>>>> we present our philosophy. I've heard comments from some TVIS like >>>>> "they wouldn't even listen to me", "they acted like I didn't even >>>>> matter", "they ignored everything I said", etc. While I'm not denying >>>>> our philosophy places us in conflict with some TVIS (not as many as >>>>> some people like to think), I think if we present our philosophy in a >>>>> level-headed, civil, agreeable manner, even those who disagree with us >>>>> will be more compelled to do so agreeably. Making the conflict less >>>>> vitriolic and bitter would do a lot to improve the way we're presented >>>>> by TVIS, even many of the TVIS who don't agree with our philosophy. >>>>> That's all I'm saying-I'm not saying we compromise the tenets we hold >>>>> dear, I'm not saying we change our philosophy, only that we respect >>>>> and sincerely make an effort to at least listen to the philosophies of >>>>> others without letting emotions get in the way. >>>>> Warmly, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>> ... hate it when posts get cut off... >>>>>> Anyway, we should make the connection with TVIs, TTBs (whatever term >>>>>> you like to use) where we can and tell our story, or so I think. Have >>>>>> any folks found success in doing so in your respective divisions? >>>>>> >>>>>> what are ways people think we can do a better job as students in the >>>>>> organization of inviting younger students to get involved? how did you >>>>>> (if you are a middle/high school student) decide to get involved? >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>>> I think there are valid points to what both Mike and Kirt are saying. >>>>>>> However, I would think you could make that argument for any segment of >>>>>>> the blindness community, and I think that as members of student >>>>>>> divisions-( the population that TVIs serve) we should make more of an >>>>>>> effort wherever possible to reach those j population >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>>>>>> On the other hand, no matter how reasonably we present ourselves, our >>>>>>>> philosophy in and of itself is such a threat to some TVIs that their >>>>>>>> ears >>>>>>>> are closed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>> Of Kirt Manwaring >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 6:57 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Darian and all, >>>>>>>> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission teachers. >>>>>>>> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, itinerate >>>>>>>> teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind >>>>>>>> students, >>>>>>>> and their parents, first impressions about blindness and thus they >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> huge influence on whatever expectations a student or parent develops >>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>> what is possible as a blind person. I think we need to put a lot >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> energy in to sincerely dialoguing with these teachers, especially the >>>>>>>> reasonable ones who don't agree with us (I'm not saying all teachers >>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>> disagree with us are reasonable), to improve our image and the way >>>>>>>> we're >>>>>>>> presented to students. Because my state affiliate is pretty good at >>>>>>>> this, >>>>>>>> my TVI, although she disagreed with a lot of what the NFB does, >>>>>>>> didn't >>>>>>>> discourage me from coming to my own opinions and getting as much >>>>>>>> firsthand >>>>>>>> experience with the Federation as I could. Even those blindness >>>>>>>> professionals who disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a >>>>>>>> civil >>>>>>>> and courteous manner, direct students to our organization. It >>>>>>>> happened >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> me. >>>>>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion is >>>>>>>>> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what you >>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>> think needs improving?" >>>>>>>>> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit of >>>>>>>>> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a >>>>>>>>> matter >>>>>>>>> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, >>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are also >>>>>>>>> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the >>>>>>>>> answers! >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Darian >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I don't think we're doing enough with the middleschool/elementary >>>>>>>>>> population. >>>>>>>>>> We need to get the message out faster, to the younger kids. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think about >>>>>>>>>>> this question? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to communicate >>>>>>>>>>>> our message in a way that will reach people through new >>>>>>>>>>>> technologies. >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%4 >>>>>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertech >>>>>>>>>>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >>>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Darian Smith >>>>>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> - Robert Byrne >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude >>>>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Darian Smith >>>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> — Robert Byrne >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Darian Smith >>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>>> >>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>>> >>>>>> — Robert Byrne >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sat May 21 00:42:12 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 17:42:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Elections at National Convention Message-ID: The following Message from nabs secretary Janice Jeang comes on behalf of the nabs board: Hello NABS members, With National Convention quickly approaching, it is once again time for NABS elections!We will have seven different positions up for election during our business meeting. Did you know that as a result of amendments made to the NABS constitution, as well as to ensure more board continuity, half of the NABS board will be elected on odd numbered years, half on even. This means that of the seven positions up, some will be fore two year terms, where as others will only be up for a term duration of one year. If you are interested in running for a position, would like to learn more about the election process- I.e. how we will tally votes, what responsibilities each position has, etc... as well as if you wish to use the forum as a campaign space, we wish to hear from you! Please address an email to nabs.membership at gmail.com  expressing your interest in the call, which Sunday in June, would be the most convenient, and what you are hoping to get out of the call- such as, hoping to campaign, or are interested in learning more about how NABS will be tallying votes, etc... in the body of the email. Once we are able to gauge interest, we will send out more specific information about our election call! Hope to hear from all interested Persons! Kindest Regards, Janice Jeang Secretary National Association of Blind Students From serena.c.cucco at gmail.com Sat May 21 00:44:36 2011 From: serena.c.cucco at gmail.com (Serena Cucco) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 20:44:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction In-Reply-To: <4dd7068d.81a5e60a.15cc.5689@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <0F9C90B221BE4E0EADC22CC2B61C5F16@SerenaPC> Hi Josh, I'm in grad school. I lived on campus in college and live here at home for grad school. I've done quite well taking in-class courses. I have to take 2 online this summer. We'll see how they go. As far as the wheelchair factor, I suppose the practicality of living on campus would depend on your reason for using a wheelchair. Although I'm not a wheelchair user myself, one of my sighted friends from college is. He lived on campus ... His using a wheelchair never stopped him! He's quite mature and approachable. If you have any specific wheelchair-related questions, I'm sure he'd be happy to answer them, either through me or possibly directly. Serena -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Josh Gregory Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 8:25 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction Hi all, I'm a little curious here, what do people think on this? For us blind students who are about to graduate from high school soon (I'm a junior this year and will be a senior next) college is something some of us look into. So, my question: Do people think that online college is more accessible for blind people, or classroom instruction? If I may ask, what have people's experiences been with both? What about a person who is blind and partially in a wheelchair such as myself, could I manage in an on-campus environment or would online instruction be better for me? Thanks so much, Josh Sent from my Apex _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serena.c.cucco%40gma il.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat May 21 00:57:08 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 18:57:08 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <30830473-6911-469A-ADBB-1ECB048A64B1@gmail.com> <00b401cc1699$53396720$f9ac3560$@panix.com> <3C527872-DFB9-4C93-B615-FBA1D550A907@gmail.com> <8A8DFE20-E9CC-462D-AE7E-F01BD410E8BA@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jorge, As I said, I don't agree with all the suits the Federation files. But I guarantee you that, on the whole, there are a lot more accessibility problems with google than some minor gmail issues-you're the computer guy here, you probably know that better than me. On 5/20/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > and in the Google case? > > The only thing that was required if I uunderstand the Gmail interfase was a > minor change in the HTML settings. > > > On May 20, 2011, at 8:13 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >> Jorge, >> That's just standard procedure for any organization and, from >> talking with people in the thick of the politics, I've gotten the >> impression that the NFB isn't any different. As a general rule, any >> organization with a grievance against another entity will first >> dialogue, then file a complaint, then look for a settlement-assuming a >> settlement isn't reached, then the case goes to court. That's pretty >> much standard legal procedure, and I'd be shocked if the NFB jumps >> straight to suits whenever the opportunity presents itself. >> Darian, >> Amen! >> Warmly, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/20/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> Kirt: >>> I'm kinda taking this at face value, since the NFB has never refered to >>> any >>> negotiations before suing anyone. >>> If however there is obvious negotiations before the law suit then that's >>> a >>> different story. >>> >>> On May 20, 2011, at 7:33 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> >>>> Jorge, >>>> Well said. But we don't see all the dialogue and negotiations that >>>> go on behind the scenes before something goes to court. Legal >>>> representation isn't cheap (even for the NFB), court proceedings are >>>> timely and cumbersome-noone wants to go to court if it can be avoided. >>>> NFB included. Maybe we could do a better job publicizing the >>>> dialogue we go through with people before we're compelled to go to >>>> court. >>>> I'm not saying I agree with every suit the Federation's been >>>> involved in of late. But there are two sides to this issue and, more >>>> often than not, suits are made only after efforts to go through >>>> dialogue and mediation have proved fruitless. I'm sure the Federation >>>> isn't an exception to that rule-perhaps someone more familiar with the >>>> inner workings of national NFB politics can shed some light here. >>>> Warmly, >>>> Kirt >>>> P.S. Jorge, I agree with most of your message-just the part about >>>> suits made me want to open my big mouth. *grin* >>>> >>>> On 5/20/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>> Hi Kirt: >>>>> Agree completely. >>>>> I think (and I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular), that there >>>>> has >>>>> been arrogance in some of our NFB members--weather in the leadership or >>>>> out >>>>> of it, which has damaged the whole organization. >>>>> I'm saying its time we present ourselves in a calmer way. >>>>> I'm not saying not to fight for our rights. >>>>> If we lose our values we may as well lose the federation--our values is >>>>> afterall what unites us, but we have to not have that "comply or I'll >>>>> sue >>>>> you" mentality, because honestly I'm getting the impression we >>>>> sometimes >>>>> don't even try and negotiate anything, and just sue companies without >>>>> any >>>>> kind of dialogue taking place outside of the court. >>>>> >>>>> Jorge >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 20, 2011, at 4:12 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Mike, >>>>>> Very true. But, from my experience, a lot of that boils down to how >>>>>> we present our philosophy. I've heard comments from some TVIS like >>>>>> "they wouldn't even listen to me", "they acted like I didn't even >>>>>> matter", "they ignored everything I said", etc. While I'm not denying >>>>>> our philosophy places us in conflict with some TVIS (not as many as >>>>>> some people like to think), I think if we present our philosophy in a >>>>>> level-headed, civil, agreeable manner, even those who disagree with us >>>>>> will be more compelled to do so agreeably. Making the conflict less >>>>>> vitriolic and bitter would do a lot to improve the way we're presented >>>>>> by TVIS, even many of the TVIS who don't agree with our philosophy. >>>>>> That's all I'm saying-I'm not saying we compromise the tenets we hold >>>>>> dear, I'm not saying we change our philosophy, only that we respect >>>>>> and sincerely make an effort to at least listen to the philosophies of >>>>>> others without letting emotions get in the way. >>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>>> ... hate it when posts get cut off... >>>>>>> Anyway, we should make the connection with TVIs, TTBs (whatever term >>>>>>> you like to use) where we can and tell our story, or so I think. >>>>>>> Have >>>>>>> any folks found success in doing so in your respective divisions? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> what are ways people think we can do a better job as students in the >>>>>>> organization of inviting younger students to get involved? how did >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> (if you are a middle/high school student) decide to get involved? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>>>> I think there are valid points to what both Mike and Kirt are >>>>>>>> saying. >>>>>>>> However, I would think you could make that argument for any segment >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the blindness community, and I think that as members of student >>>>>>>> divisions-( the population that TVIs serve) we should make more of >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>> effort wherever possible to reach those j population >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>>>>>>> On the other hand, no matter how reasonably we present ourselves, >>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>> philosophy in and of itself is such a threat to some TVIs that >>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>> ears >>>>>>>>> are closed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>> Of Kirt Manwaring >>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 6:57 PM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Darian and all, >>>>>>>>> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission teachers. >>>>>>>>> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, >>>>>>>>> itinerate >>>>>>>>> teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind >>>>>>>>> students, >>>>>>>>> and their parents, first impressions about blindness and thus they >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> huge influence on whatever expectations a student or parent >>>>>>>>> develops >>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>> what is possible as a blind person. I think we need to put a lot >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> energy in to sincerely dialoguing with these teachers, especially >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> reasonable ones who don't agree with us (I'm not saying all >>>>>>>>> teachers >>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>> disagree with us are reasonable), to improve our image and the way >>>>>>>>> we're >>>>>>>>> presented to students. Because my state affiliate is pretty good >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> this, >>>>>>>>> my TVI, although she disagreed with a lot of what the NFB does, >>>>>>>>> didn't >>>>>>>>> discourage me from coming to my own opinions and getting as much >>>>>>>>> firsthand >>>>>>>>> experience with the Federation as I could. Even those blindness >>>>>>>>> professionals who disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> civil >>>>>>>>> and courteous manner, direct students to our organization. It >>>>>>>>> happened >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> me. >>>>>>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what you >>>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>>> think needs improving?" >>>>>>>>>> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit of >>>>>>>>>> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a >>>>>>>>>> matter >>>>>>>>>> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are >>>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the >>>>>>>>>> answers! >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Darian >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> I don't think we're doing enough with the >>>>>>>>>>> middleschool/elementary >>>>>>>>>>> population. >>>>>>>>>>> We need to get the message out faster, to the younger kids. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think >>>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>> this question? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to >>>>>>>>>>>>> communicate >>>>>>>>>>>>> our message in a way that will reach people through new >>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%4 >>>>>>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertech >>>>>>>>>>>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >>>>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Darian Smith >>>>>>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>>>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> - Robert Byrne >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude >>>>>>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Darian Smith >>>>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>>>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> — Robert Byrne >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Darian Smith >>>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> — Robert Byrne >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat May 21 01:00:22 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 19:00:22 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction In-Reply-To: <0F9C90B221BE4E0EADC22CC2B61C5F16@SerenaPC> References: <4dd7068d.81a5e60a.15cc.5689@mx.google.com> <0F9C90B221BE4E0EADC22CC2B61C5F16@SerenaPC> Message-ID: Josh, I think most employers prefer traditional classroom education. That's not to say that can't be suplimented with online courses-I'm doing a couple online over the summer and, so far, I enjoy them a lot. But I think, for most of your classes, you're better off in a traditionalenvironment. On 5/20/11, Serena Cucco wrote: > Hi Josh, > > I'm in grad school. I lived on campus in college and live here at home for > grad school. I've done quite well taking in-class courses. I have to take > 2 online this summer. We'll see how they go. > > As far as the wheelchair factor, I suppose the practicality of living on > campus would depend on your reason for using a wheelchair. Although I'm not > a wheelchair user myself, one of my sighted friends from college is. He > lived on campus ... His using a wheelchair never stopped him! He's quite > mature and approachable. If you have any specific wheelchair-related > questions, I'm sure he'd be happy to answer them, either through me or > possibly directly. > > Serena > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Josh Gregory > Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 8:25 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction > > Hi all, > I'm a little curious here, what do people think on this? For us > blind students who are about to graduate from high school soon > (I'm a junior this year and will be a senior next) college is > something some of us look into. So, my question: Do people think > that online college is more accessible for blind people, or > classroom instruction? If I may ask, what have people's > experiences been with both? What about a person who is blind and > partially in a wheelchair such as myself, could I manage in an > on-campus environment or would online instruction be better for > me? > Thanks so much, > Josh > > Sent from my Apex > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serena.c.cucco%40gma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From jty727 at gmail.com Sat May 21 01:01:53 2011 From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 21:01:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction In-Reply-To: <0F9C90B221BE4E0EADC22CC2B61C5F16@SerenaPC> References: <4dd7068d.81a5e60a.15cc.5689@mx.google.com> <0F9C90B221BE4E0EADC22CC2B61C5F16@SerenaPC> Message-ID: I will be entering my Senior year in College in the Fall and I have taken online classes and in class classes. I can comment on both. I personally didn't like my History course that I did online my first semester of college, but the English course was all right. So, I would caution you(josh) that in thinking about online study look at the course and determine if you would do better with an online version or inclass version. It all depends upon how you think you learn. The reason why I mention the looking at the course is because if it is something which would require questions it would be hard because sometimes the Professor doesn't get back as soon as possible and possibly the assignment has already been due & over when they get back to you. Yet again it depends upon you and I would suggest possibly 1 online course at first to see if you like it and then decide which route you wish to travel. Justin On 5/20/11, Serena Cucco wrote: > Hi Josh, > > I'm in grad school. I lived on campus in college and live here at home for > grad school. I've done quite well taking in-class courses. I have to take > 2 online this summer. We'll see how they go. > > As far as the wheelchair factor, I suppose the practicality of living on > campus would depend on your reason for using a wheelchair. Although I'm not > a wheelchair user myself, one of my sighted friends from college is. He > lived on campus ... His using a wheelchair never stopped him! He's quite > mature and approachable. If you have any specific wheelchair-related > questions, I'm sure he'd be happy to answer them, either through me or > possibly directly. > > Serena > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Josh Gregory > Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 8:25 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction > > Hi all, > I'm a little curious here, what do people think on this? For us > blind students who are about to graduate from high school soon > (I'm a junior this year and will be a senior next) college is > something some of us look into. So, my question: Do people think > that online college is more accessible for blind people, or > classroom instruction? If I may ask, what have people's > experiences been with both? What about a person who is blind and > partially in a wheelchair such as myself, could I manage in an > on-campus environment or would online instruction be better for > me? > Thanks so much, > Josh > > Sent from my Apex > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serena.c.cucco%40gma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sat May 21 01:03:19 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 18:03:19 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction In-Reply-To: <0F9C90B221BE4E0EADC22CC2B61C5F16@SerenaPC> References: <4dd7068d.81a5e60a.15cc.5689@mx.google.com> <0F9C90B221BE4E0EADC22CC2B61C5F16@SerenaPC> Message-ID: Hi Josh, for the sake of this conversation, I would like to break this down into two parts- access to buildings and access to coursework As for access to buildings, you will want to check with the school(s) you are interested in, but generally you will find that colleges are accessable to those in chairs, and really by law are supposed to be. coursework is also supposed to be accessable to you, but in this case, you are going to want to be proactive in regards to getting what you need from professors. Education is something that regardless of economic, social, ethnic, gender or any other standing, is and should be accessable to you. I encourage you to maintain the thought that college is accessable, just how do I make things work for me in that areana. Regards, Darian On 5/20/11, Serena Cucco wrote: > Hi Josh, > > I'm in grad school. I lived on campus in college and live here at home for > grad school. I've done quite well taking in-class courses. I have to take > 2 online this summer. We'll see how they go. > > As far as the wheelchair factor, I suppose the practicality of living on > campus would depend on your reason for using a wheelchair. Although I'm not > a wheelchair user myself, one of my sighted friends from college is. He > lived on campus ... His using a wheelchair never stopped him! He's quite > mature and approachable. If you have any specific wheelchair-related > questions, I'm sure he'd be happy to answer them, either through me or > possibly directly. > > Serena > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Josh Gregory > Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 8:25 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction > > Hi all, > I'm a little curious here, what do people think on this? For us > blind students who are about to graduate from high school soon > (I'm a junior this year and will be a senior next) college is > something some of us look into. So, my question: Do people think > that online college is more accessible for blind people, or > classroom instruction? If I may ask, what have people's > experiences been with both? What about a person who is blind and > partially in a wheelchair such as myself, could I manage in an > on-campus environment or would online instruction be better for > me? > Thanks so much, > Josh > > Sent from my Apex > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serena.c.cucco%40gma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Sat May 21 01:05:04 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 18:05:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] For Students in the SF Area Fw: [E-S] EFF seeks Technology Generalist Message-ID: > The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF), an Internet civil liberties > nonprofit organization based in San Francisco, is seeking a full-time > Technology Generalist to start immediately. This person will work with > the other members of the EFF tech team to manage web content on > eff.org, perform server systems administration and desktop support, > and generally to support the EFF tech, legal, and activist teams in > their mission to defend civil liberties online. > > Although this is a junior position, there is room to grow your skills, > responsibilities, and compensation at EFF. > > Required Skills: > > * Courteous and professional desk-side manner > * Mac OS X troubleshooting and systems administration > * Linux/Unix shell scripting and command line > * Strong written and verbal communication > > Nice To Have Skills: > > * A general-purpose programming language (Python, Ruby, PHP, et c.) > * Web technologies (HTML, CSS, JavaScript) > * Portfolio of open source project contributions > * Project management experience > * Experience with the Drupal CMS > > To apply, please send a cover letter and resume to techjob at eff.org. > Please send materials only in open formats like plain text and HTML. > No phone calls, please. > > > -- > Michael S. Nunez > J.D. Candidate, 2011 > Stanford Law School > G-Phone: (202) 525-6057 > (Note: Google will prompt you to identify yourself the first time you > call this number.) From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sat May 21 01:41:18 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 21:41:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction Message-ID: <4dd71870.9247e60a.0ae0.55d7@mx.google.com> Justin, would the course matter? What if it was political science, which I am deeply interested in. Serena, if you do not mind, I will write you offlist, as I do have a couple of accessibility questions. Darian, thanks! I will keep that in mind. :) Josh sent from my Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Darian Smith wrote: Hi Josh, I'm in grad school. I lived on campus in college and live here at home for grad school. I've done quite well taking in-class courses. I have to take 2 online this summer. We'll see how they go. As far as the wheelchair factor, I suppose the practicality of living on campus would depend on your reason for using a wheelchair. Although I'm not a wheelchair user myself, one of my sighted friends from college is. He lived on campus ... His using a wheelchair never stopped him! He's quite mature and approachable. If you have any specific wheelchair-related questions, I'm sure he'd be happy to answer them, either through me or possibly directly. Serena -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Josh Gregory Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 8:25 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction Hi all, I'm a little curious here, what do people think on this? For us blind students who are about to graduate from high school soon (I'm a junior this year and will be a senior next) college is something some of us look into. So, my question: Do people think that online college is more accessible for blind people, or classroom instruction? If I may ask, what have people's experiences been with both? What about a person who is blind and partially in a wheelchair such as myself, could I manage in an on-campus environment or would online instruction be better for me? Thanks so much, Josh Sent from my Apex _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serena.c. cucco%40gma il.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb %40gmail..com -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat May 21 01:46:33 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 19:46:33 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction In-Reply-To: <4dd71870.9247e60a.0ae0.55d7@mx.google.com> References: <4dd71870.9247e60a.0ae0.55d7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Josh, I took a political science class at my university-I/'m retaking it online because I was lazy, either way works. It's personal preference, really, but I'd say it's going to be hard to do every single class online, you'll want to go to class at some point and probably do most of your classes on campus. But my online poli-sci class is great, my poli sci class on campus was great (I was just a procrastinator, which is bad whichever way you're taking a class), either way can be accessible. On 5/20/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > Justin, would the course matter? What if it was political > science, which I am deeply interested in. Serena, if you do not > mind, I will write you offlist, as I do have a couple of > accessibility questions. Darian, thanks! I will keep that in > mind. :) > Josh > > sent from my Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Darian Smith To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 18:03:19 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction > > Hi Josh, > for the sake of this conversation, I would like to break this > down > into two parts- access to buildings and access to coursework > As for access to buildings, you will want to check with the > school(s) you are interested in, but generally you will find > that > colleges are accessable to those in chairs, and really by law > are > supposed to be. > coursework is also supposed to be accessable to you, but in > this > case, you are going to want to be proactive in regards to getting > what > you need from professors. > Education is something that regardless of economic, social, > ethnic, > gender or any other standing, is and should be accessable to you. > I > encourage you to maintain the thought that college is accessable, > just > how do I make things work for me in that areana. > Regards, > Darian > > > On 5/20/11, Serena Cucco wrote: > Hi Josh, > > I'm in grad school. I lived on campus in college and live here > at home for > grad school. I've done quite well taking in-class courses. I > have to take > 2 online this summer. We'll see how they go. > > As far as the wheelchair factor, I suppose the practicality of > living on > campus would depend on your reason for using a wheelchair. > Although I'm not > a wheelchair user myself, one of my sighted friends from college > is. He > lived on campus ... His using a wheelchair never stopped him! > He's quite > mature and approachable. If you have any specific > wheelchair-related > questions, I'm sure he'd be happy to answer them, either through > me or > possibly directly. > > Serena > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Josh Gregory > Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 8:25 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction > > Hi all, > I'm a little curious here, what do people think on this? For us > blind students who are about to graduate from high school soon > (I'm a junior this year and will be a senior next) college is > something some of us look into. So, my question: Do people > think > that online college is more accessible for blind people, or > classroom instruction? If I may ask, what have people's > experiences been with both? What about a person who is blind and > partially in a wheelchair such as myself, could I manage in an > on-campus environment or would online instruction be better for > me? > Thanks so much, > Josh > > Sent from my Apex > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serena.c. > cucco%40gma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb > %40gmail..com > > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From bernadetta_pracon at samobile.net Sat May 21 02:18:33 2011 From: bernadetta_pracon at samobile.net (Bernadetta Pracon) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 22:18:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Good luck with your endeavors Message-ID: <20110521021833.5664.64390@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Hi Bridgit: Very well said. I don't post to this list much myself; Sometimes, classes and life get in the way of joining in. I follow the discussions very closely though, andI really have enjoyed all of your posts. I have also been pursuing creative writing for years. (As a matter of fact, I am about to receive my BA in creative writing and journalism in the coming week.) I am also afan of your blog, though I have not gotten around to comment on it yet. I just wanted to say that your presence on this list has been informative, wise, and well thought out. I, for one, apreciate that very much. I wish you good luck in the goals you are going to pursue now; I hope things turn out wonderfully for you. Thanks for being so resourceful, thoughtful, and entertaining. Bernadetta -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sat May 21 02:30:33 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 22:30:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Elections at National Convention In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1021817B-95A7-47B5-BC7F-0C959A519680@gmail.com> Darian: How old must you be to run? On May 20, 2011, at 8:42 PM, Darian Smith wrote: > The following Message from nabs secretary Janice Jeang comes on > behalf of the nabs board: > Hello NABS members, > > With National Convention quickly approaching, it is once again time for NABS > elections!We will have seven different positions up for election during our > business meeting. > > Did you know that as a result of amendments made to the NABS constitution, > as well as to ensure more board continuity, half of the NABS board will be > elected on odd numbered years, half on even. This means that of the seven > positions up, some will be fore two year terms, where as others will only be > up for a term duration of one year. > > If you are interested in running for a position, would like to learn more > about the election process- I.e. how we will tally votes, what > responsibilities each position has, etc... as well as if you wish to use the > forum as a campaign space, we wish to hear from you! > > Please address an email to > nabs.membership at gmail.com > expressing your interest in the call, which Sunday in June, would be the > most convenient, and what you are hoping to get out of the call- such as, > hoping to campaign, or are interested in learning more about how NABS will > be tallying votes, etc... in the body of the email. Once we are able to > gauge interest, we will send out more specific information about our > election call! > Hope to hear from all interested Persons! > > Kindest Regards, > > Janice Jeang > > Secretary > > National Association of Blind Students > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From liziswhatis at hotmail.com Sat May 21 02:34:31 2011 From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 21:34:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Good luck with your endeavors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bridgit, Fantastic post, very well written. Best of luck in the future. Take care. Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 5:36 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Good luck with your endeavors Dear Nabsters, I've not posted in weeks, but as many of you know, finals are a crazy, crazy time of year. Though my post have often been few and far between over the years, I've always enjoyed the lively discussions and plethora of information. My husband and I are stepping down from our various leadership positions so we can focus on personal, and professional goals. We are not quitting the Federation altogether, but we are taking a well deserved break. I wanted to say a few things before I take an extended absence from this list. I graduate in August, but I'm applying to different MFA programs for creative writing. I'm also interning with a public relations group this summer, which, only two weeks in, and I'm already busy with projects up to my eyes! *smile* My husband begins grad school in the fall, and we both are searching for new employment opportunities. I hope the future holds many more opportunities, and I'm figuring out what my next step will be. My husband and I are excited about some opportunities looming on the horizon including a family. We have reached a point when we want to focus our energies on personal goals, and find the balance between Federation involvement and everything else. The work we have accomplished with the NFB means a lot to us, but it is now time to accomplish goals for selfish reasons! *smile* As the future leaders in this organization, and the future voice of the blind, I encourage each of you to work diligently towards your dreams. Don't ever let anyone, including the NFB, tell you that your dreams are impossible. Obstacles only exist because we allow them. Keep this in mind, if it is difficult and scary, you are probably moving in the right direction. Strive to achieve as much independence as possible. The blind have limitations because society decided this long ago. We based our reality on perceptions, not truth. As blind people, we can achieve whatever we set our minds on. Let limitations be a thought of the past. Be efficient with your skills. Both partials and totals, prepare yourself for each and every situation. Don't let fears, ignorance and perceptions hold you back. Remember, the tools of the blind, Braille, canes and dogs, adaptive technology, are not badges of the handicapped, but are tools of the independent. Let's change the world's opinions by insisting they accept us, and our tools and methods, as capable, equal people. The better you are with the skills, the more success you will achieve, and people will recognize that blind people are not less capable. Your life is what you make it. If you grasp this, you will find a whole new world open to you. Learn from your past, but don't dwell on it. We can't change what has already happened. Grow from your experiences, but don't define your future by any negativity from the past. Live in the moment, but always think of the future. Your teens and twenties will fly by so chase your dreams now. If one avenue ends and does not bring what you hoped for, choose another route and keep moving. Do not allow blindness to define you. Blindness is but one part of you. You are a full person who has a lot to offer. Blindness does not make you completely different from anyone else, so don't let it become the defining aspect of you. Please, please keep an open mind in all things. Don't be ruled by what others tell you, or what you hear. Consider all sides before making decisions. No single person, or organization, has all the answers. Growth and change is good and should happen. With no growth, stagnancy occurs, and no one is helped when there is no forward movement. Keep your own council, and learn to make your own decisions. Questioning is not a bad thing. Do not be afraid to speak up and voice concerns and suggestions. If your voice is silenced, consider finding a new venue where your voice is appreciated. We expect the rest of the world to open their minds about blindness, let's not close our minds in return. Work to achieve true equality, which means sharing that equality. Open your mind to new experiences and people, and don't allow blindness to become a means of reverse prejudice. I'll still be around, and I may pop on the list from time to time, but I hope we all experience bright things in our future. For anyone interested, I will continue to advertise my blogs as many of you have been awesome supporters. Good luck in all your endeavors. Bridgit Pollpeter _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai l.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat May 21 03:43:11 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 23:43:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction In-Reply-To: <0F9C90B221BE4E0EADC22CC2B61C5F16@SerenaPC> References: <0F9C90B221BE4E0EADC22CC2B61C5F16@SerenaPC> Message-ID: <694662A007B64EB993485DE04FC5FDA6@OwnerPC> Cerena, What are you in grad school for and where did you attend undergrad? -----Original Message----- From: Serena Cucco Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 8:44 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction Hi Josh, I'm in grad school. I lived on campus in college and live here at home for grad school. I've done quite well taking in-class courses. I have to take 2 online this summer. We'll see how they go. As far as the wheelchair factor, I suppose the practicality of living on campus would depend on your reason for using a wheelchair. Although I'm not a wheelchair user myself, one of my sighted friends from college is. He lived on campus ... His using a wheelchair never stopped him! He's quite mature and approachable. If you have any specific wheelchair-related questions, I'm sure he'd be happy to answer them, either through me or possibly directly. Serena -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Josh Gregory Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 8:25 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction Hi all, I'm a little curious here, what do people think on this? For us blind students who are about to graduate from high school soon (I'm a junior this year and will be a senior next) college is something some of us look into. So, my question: Do people think that online college is more accessible for blind people, or classroom instruction? If I may ask, what have people's experiences been with both? What about a person who is blind and partially in a wheelchair such as myself, could I manage in an on-campus environment or would online instruction be better for me? Thanks so much, Josh Sent from my Apex _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serena.c.cucco%40gma il.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat May 21 03:53:19 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 23:53:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complyingwith Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates In-Reply-To: References: <4dd6c8a9.4969e50a.463c.ffff89fc@mx.google.com><65842178-AA7E-4E69-BAE3-566EFED845C2@panix.com> Message-ID: Kirt, I agree, we want ease of access. I've been on websites that are usable when you jump through hoops, but most people do not have hours and hours to try and try. Why should we have to struggle to spend so muc time on something when a sighted person takes a few minutes. For instance, some links are not labeled and jaws says "image 02" and we can click on it and custom label it. What if a table is not labeled or you fill out a form and its not labeled? Can it be used? Maybe, if you go out of forms mode and find the text so you know what to fill in. But user friendly websites say their form field text as you tab to each field. What I mean is you tab or hit F for the form field and jaws will say "name edit" instead of an unlabeled field where jaws says " "edit" or "blank" and you wonder what you're supposed to edit. Believe me been there done that. Anyway, so what websites are we talking about that are so called usable by advanced computer users, and not too accessible? Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 7:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complyingwith Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates Jorge, Just because you, me, Mike and Bryce (who are all fairly advanced computer users) can do it, that doesn't mean all blind people can. I guess you could argue that not every sighted person knows how to use the internet but I think with usability, ease of access ought to be addressed-both from a market standpoint and a legal standpoint. On 5/20/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > Duable is the key here. > Its Doable. > We can't ask for everything to be soooooooooooo obvious, > companies are going to stop listening to us if we request special > treatment. > > > On May 20, 2011, at 5:33 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > >> It's doable but awkward. >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 13:01, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >> >>> Wow, Amtrak? That's one of the important ones that blind people would >>> need to access, in my opinion. Probably blind people in urban areas use >>> Amtrak all the time. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>> >>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 20:01:33 -0600 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not >>> Complyingwith Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >>> >>> This surprises me-not that I'm a government internet expert, but I've >>> seen a lot of their sites and the only one that really gave me any >>> trouble was Amtrak. >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> From: David Andrews >> Date: May 19, 2011 8:22:40 PM EDT >>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site >>> Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >>> Reply-To: "Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk Mailing >>> List" >> >>> >>> >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> Chris Danielsen >>> Director of Public Relations >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site >>> Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind Expresses Outrage, Demands Swift Action >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (May 19, 2011): A study that has just been published >>> online in the journal >>> Government >>> Information Quarterly has found that of one-hundred Web sites operated >>> by >>> federal government agencies, over 90 percent do not comply with >>> government accessibility guidelines and likely cannot be used by people >>> who are blind or have other perceptual or motor disabilities. The >>> study, >>> entitled "Accessibility of U.S. federal government home pages: Section >>> 508 compliance and site accessibility statements" and coauthored by >>> Doctoral Student Abiodun Olalere and Professor Jonathan Lazar of Towson >>> University, found that the home pages of over 90 percent of the Web >>> sites >>> they evaluated contained violations of the government's own guidelines >>> for compliance with Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. That >>> law requires that government electronic and information technology be >>> accessible to people with disabilities. >>> >>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, >>> said: >>> "Blind Americans are outraged that the government is failing to comply >>> with its own guidelines to make government information and services >>> available to citizens with disabilities. Given the clear legal >>> requirements of Section 508 and the fact that use of the Internet is >>> critical to education, employment, access to government benefits and >>> services, and all other aspects of modern life, there is no excuse for >>> failure to follow and rigorously enforce these guidelines. We demand >>> that officials in all branches of government take immediate steps to >>> bring all federal Web sites into compliance with the law, and we pledge >>> to continue to hold the federal government accountable if it continues >>> to >>> treat the blind and others with disabilities as second-class citizens." >>> >>> The study evaluated the home pages of one-hundred government Web sites >>> across all three branches of the federal government, including executive >>> agencies, independent agencies, government corporations (e.g. Amtrak), >>> the United States Congress, the United States Supreme Court, United >>> States federal courts, and "open government" Web sites like >>> www.usajobs.gov and >>> www.ready.gov. The authors utilized both >>> automated-software tools and human-expert inspections on each home page, >>> and determined that over 90 percent of the home pages were not in >>> compliance with the Section 508 regulations. >>> >>> Most of the accessibility problems were common ones that are easily >>> resolved, such as unlabeled images, mislabeled forms or tables, videos >>> without captioning, flash without any textual equivalents, and lack of >>> keyboard equivalents for mouse-over actions. The authors noted that >>> this >>> is not a problem unique to one agency. Similar problems occur on >>> multiple agency Web sites, and the core problem is the lack of >>> consistent >>> compliance activities and enforcement throughout the federal government. >>> >>> The study makes several recommendations to increase compliance, >>> including >>> improved resources on complying with the guidelines; better >>> documentation >>> of best practices; publishing of information about which agencies are >>> compliant and noncompliant with accessibility guidelines as part of the >>> open government dashboard; and better enforcement and monitoring >>> procedures within government agencies, such as the loss of Web-posting >>> privileges for repeatedly posting inaccessible content. >>> >>> >>> ### >>> >>> >>> About the National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is >>> the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people >>> in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through >>> advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging >>> independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the >>> blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January >>> 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan >>> Institute, the first research and training center in the United States >>> for the blind led by the blind. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gui-talk mailing list >>> gui-talk at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gui-talk_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> gui-talk: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gui-talk_nfbnet.org/compute >>> rtechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>> ydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat May 21 04:16:41 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 00:16:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction In-Reply-To: <4dd7068d.81a5e60a.15cc.5689@mx.google.com> References: <4dd7068d.81a5e60a.15cc.5689@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Josh, You have a lot to consider with being a student coupled with the wheelchair. I went to the traditional classroom all through college. I went to a big state run school and then transferred to a smaller private school, Marymount university. No, online college is not more accessible. Things like the discussion board on Blackboard are problematic, so are the quizzes. I tried an online class this semester and was very disappointed. Its partly my learning style. I didn't know what was important to extract from the text without a class lecture. I wasn't sure what to study for the test. Assignments seemed a bit ambiguous with the instructions. I just was never sure what the professor expected. What do you want from college? If you want the social aspect, the independence and living away from home, the increased freedom, the ability to just go where you want on campus such as a friend's room late at night to hang out, then stay on campus. Oh, another thing on campus its easier to see your professors, if you need extra help during office hours; where as if you are a commuter or online, you can't get to campus as easily. ] But if you just want the academics, then online might work. Also what is your study habits? Online classes you are more on your own. You are not in class with a schedule to turn in things and you won't have classmates to study/compare work with; what I mean is with papers, you often get to read each other's work and get suggestions. Personally, I see challenges either way. On campus classes will present accessibility challenges since you cannot see the board or screen; so you will want the powerpoints or screen lecture notes sent to you. But online challenges abound because of graphics, flash content, and blackboard if your school uses it. Regarding access to school due to your wheelchair, I'd check that a lot, even more than the blindness accomodations. The blindness is something minor to accommodate, where as physical disabilities require modifications to the built environment. Ensure you can access all classrooms with your wheel chair. Does the school have enough ramp access? Does the school have enough space for your chair to wheel into class? The law, ADA, requires renovated buildings to be wheel chair accessible. Unfortunately, some schools including the community college, I'm at now, are not in ADA compliance because either they did not think of it or buildings were built prior to 1990 and were not yet renovated. So the law requires access, but if your school was not built with ADA accessibility in mind such as wide door ways, ramps, accessible restrooms, push buttons, etc. you will have a hard time living and moving around campus. So check into that. You could even bring someone sighted and help you look around. That person can check for ramps, push buttons, elevators to each floor, accessible restrooms, and even check the door way width for you. For ADA compliant wheel chair access door widths need to be 32 inches. But again, if built before 1990 without renovations, buildings are not covered by ADA. HTH, Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Josh Gregory Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 8:25 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction Hi all, I'm a little curious here, what do people think on this? For us blind students who are about to graduate from high school soon (I'm a junior this year and will be a senior next) college is something some of us look into. So, my question: Do people think that online college is more accessible for blind people, or classroom instruction? If I may ask, what have people's experiences been with both? What about a person who is blind and partially in a wheelchair such as myself, could I manage in an on-campus environment or would online instruction be better for me? Thanks so much, Josh Sent from my Apex _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From tabs.students at gmail.com Sat May 21 04:19:42 2011 From: tabs.students at gmail.com (TABS Students) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 23:19:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Announcing Southern Strums 2011 Message-ID: Texas Association Of Blind Students Southern Strums2011 Dear Federationists, On Saturday July 2-Monday July 4, at the Rosen shingle Creek Resort, TABS will be hosting Southern Strums 2011, our largest annual fundraiser, bringing together music lovers and artists alike, this time for three exciting nights of entertainment as opposed to the customary one night engagement. Strums is scheduled to take place each of these three days from 10:30 PM until about midnight. The location of the event is to be announced, but the price has been set at $12.00or $30.00 if you wish to attend all three nights. You will receive a free CD of the best performances of this year’s event with your ticket purchase, which will be available for pick up later during the week of National Convention. Space is limited for this year’s event, so we highly encourage you to reserve your spot as soon as possible. If you wish to attend, please send a check or money order to the below address: Juan Carlos Munoz 2806 Hardy St Houston, TX 77009 Please attach the following in either print or Braille with your purchase: • Your name • Which night or nights you would like to attend • A telephone number or e-mail address so we can provide you with location information We hope you will join us for at least one of these nights full of fun, friends, and music. If you’ve never been to Southern Strums before, you don’t know what you’re missing, so come check out what all the fuss is about. Contact our TABS president with questions using the contact information below. See y’all in Orlando! Respectfully, Juan Carlos Munoz, president Texas Association Of Blind Students Phone: (832) 378-8632 E-mail: jc.munoz.nfb at gmail.com Web site: http://www.nfb-texas.org/tabs.html From gpaikens at gmail.com Sat May 21 05:25:40 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 00:25:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <4dd6cccc.d8a3e60a.73f8.51eb@mx.google.com> References: <4dd6cccc.d8a3e60a.73f8.51eb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. In braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and letters depending on context. The unified system would theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to determine what a text says, making it more like print. The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is rather clunky and unwieldy. I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code would be better than the current systems used. But having one code does seem like it might simplify things. Just my thoughts, Greg On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi Greg, > > My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are different symbols for different operations in math than they are in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Greg Aikens To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools can be improved and better used in general though. > > As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. > > -Greg > > > On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. > I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being > changed, or it becoming obsilete. > Nemeth Code will stay around! > I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! > Blessings, Joshua > > > On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main > reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. > > On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM > To: NABS-L > Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What > about the future of Nemeth? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 > 62%40students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sat May 21 05:39:43 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 01:39:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Message-ID: <4dd75051.82d6e60a.38be.21d6@mx.google.com> People=20have=20talked=20about=20losing=20Nemeth=20as=20far=20as=20I=20unde= rstand=20it.=20=20 That,=20(JMHO)=20will=20not=20happen.=20=20We=20as=20blind=20people=20have= =20become=20so=20 used=20to=20it,=20that,=20if=20another=20code=20were=20to=20be=20introduced= ,=20as=20 others=20have=20rightfully=20said,=20it'd=20take=20a=20while=20for=20it=20t= o=20be=20 adopted,=20as=20well=20as=20for=20us=20to=20learn=20it.=20=20So=20I=20don't= =20think=20Nemeth=20 will=20vanish=20and=20I=20like=20it=20more=20than=20UEB=20because=20it=20ha= s=20more=20of=20 what=20I'm=20used=20to,=20contractions.=20=20While=20I=20*=20could=20*=20le= arn=20and=20use=20 it,=20for=20me,=20Nemeth=20is=20the=20way=20to=20go. Josh sent=20from=20my=20Apex =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Greg=20Aikens=20=20wrote: =20I'm=20with=20Mike=20here.=20=20Nemeth=20is=20absolutely=20brilliant-prob= ably=20the=20 main =20reason=20(aside=20from=20awesome=20tutors)=20I=20was=20able=20to=20pass= =20college=20 Algebra. =20On=205/19/11,=20Mike=20Freeman=20=20wrote: =20It'll=20stay=20around=20if=20I=20have=20anything=20to=20do=20with=20it. =20Mike =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org=20 [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]=20On =20Behalf =20Of=20Nicole=20B.=20=20Torcolini=20at=20Home =20Sent:=20Thursday,=20May=2019,=202011=207:53=20PM =20To:=20NABS-L =20Subject:=20[nabs-l]=20The=20Future=20of=20Nemeth? =20Many=20people=20have=20been=20talking=20about=20the=20future=20of=20Brai= lle=20in=20 general.=20=20What =20about=20the=20future=20of=20Nemeth? =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p =20anix.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz =20ydude%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 =2062%40students.pccua.edu =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% =2040gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu =20sbaum%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sat May 21 06:18:35 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 23:18:35 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nmabs] Looking for a roomate for National Convention. In-Reply-To: <4dd60258.e30d440a.5c47.0608@mx.google.com> References: <4dd60258.e30d440a.5c47.0608@mx.google.com> Message-ID: wanted to pass this along, a friend is trying to help another friend, and maybe this might help your friend, my friend :) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: NMABS President Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 23:55:36 -0600 Subject: [Nmabs] Looking for a roomate for National Convention. To: New Mexico Association of Blind Students , List for NABS State Presidents Hi all, I recently heard of a young lady, who is a student at the NM Comission for the Blind's Orientation Center, who will be attending this year's National Convention in Orlando. She is looking for a roommate. If you are interested in being her roommate, please contact me, Tara Chavez, NMABS President at nmabs.president at gmail.com and I will put you in touch with her. She needs to know ASAP so please let me know. Thank you all, Tara PS. Please pass along to other lists if possible. -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From ignasicambra at gmail.com Sat May 21 06:26:56 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 02:26:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Object-oriented Programming Classes Questions In-Reply-To: <89F108F1-4599-4520-ABE6-A14B14478BCD@gmail.com> References: <624DF19A4EEFD647B87A8574625B3A3601053FF04AE3@spnvm1183.bud.bpa.gov> <0CFF9229-A542-4E05-A3CE-DC114E81425A@panix.com> <4DD65E56.4000808@pcdesk.net> <2D91F666-A7A1-45C2-A12E-898792EB932E@gmail.com> <89F108F1-4599-4520-ABE6-A14B14478BCD@gmail.com> Message-ID: A new version came out not too long ago and it has been redesigned, that's why I was asking. On May 20, 2011, at 6:49 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > xCode is very clumsy as far as I know with Voice Over, > the last version I ran ran on 10.6.1 I believe, > maybe 10.5.8, I'm not sure. > > On May 20, 2011, at 1:59 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > >> Has anybody tried the newest version of xCode? I would like to know if accessibility has improved since versions 3.x before I buy it. I'm tired of dealing with Interface Builder... >> >> IC >> On May 20, 2011, at 8:28 AM, Joseph C. Lininger wrote: >> >>> Generally beginning object oriented courses are done in Java. Sometimes >>> it will be C++, but it's almost always Java with all of the institutions >>> I know about. You will have no trouble if all you need to write are text >>> based applications. If you have to develop GUI apps, things get a little >>> more interesting because well, frankly, the access to them is just not >>> there. There have been efforts to make it work in the past, but yeah. >>> It's just not there at the moment. >>> >>> Sorry, but I can't really provide any assistance with visual studeo >>> since I don't use that particular environment. I'm more a unix guy >>> myself when it comes to programming. >>> Joe >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Sat May 21 11:51:07 2011 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 06:51:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <4dd75051.82d6e60a.38be.21d6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I am not saying that Nemeth should be replaced, but I do feel that people need to realize that the Nemeth Code itself replaced what was called the Taylor Code in the 1950's and it was a pretty complete change. From what I know about the Taylor code, it was not as complete as is Nemeth, so it seemed to be a good move. The point is that we had to go through a significant change and we made it. Any change should not be made lightly, though, and we need to learn as much as we can about any change before supporting or opposing it. We also need to understand what is happening in print as well. I am not a person who believes braille has to reflect print exactly, but there are things that happen in print that play a role in education, particularly, that didn't happen fifty years ago. I have also traditionally opposed changing braille just to make it easier to translate using a computer, but I think that this now plays a larger role with refreshable braille displays and access to untranslated electronic texts. This all goes beyond Nemeth Code itself, though. There are things that might be done that are less aggressive than a unified code like UEB or NUBS, I don't claim to be an expert there. I simply don't think we should oppose something because it is change, nor should we embrace something simply because it is new. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Sat, 21 May 2011 01:39:43 -0400, Josh Gregory wrote: >People have talked about losing Nemeth as far as I understand it. >That, (JMHO) will not happen. We as blind people have become so >used to it, that, if another code were to be introduced, as >others have rightfully said, it'd take a while for it to be >adopted, as well as for us to learn it. So I don't think Nemeth >will vanish and I like it more than UEB because it has more of >what I'm used to, contractions. While I * could * learn and use >it, for me, Nemeth is the way to go. >Josh >sent from my Apex > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Greg Aikens To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 00:25:40 -0500 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >Hi Chris, >I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In >print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. In >braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and >letters depending on context. The unified system would >theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to determine >what a text says, making it more like print. >The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to >learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, >and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is >rather clunky and unwieldy. >I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code >would be better than the current systems used. But having one >code does seem like it might simplify things. >Just my thoughts, >Greg >On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, -ris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi Greg, > My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, >don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for >literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are >different symbols for different operations in math than they are >in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is >affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? > Chris > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities >motto) > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Greg Aikens To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the >code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with >literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended >by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have >not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so >I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction >here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools >can be improved and better used in general though. > As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of >unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which >integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a >challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new >code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than >mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. > -Greg > On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. > I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being > changed, or it becoming obsilete. > Nemeth Code will stay around! > I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! > Blessings, Joshua > On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the >main > reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college >Algebra. > On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. > Mike > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM > To: NABS-L > Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in >general. What > about the future of Nemeth? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for > nabs-l: > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for > nabs-l: > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for > nabs-l: > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 > 62%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for nabs-l: > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for nabs-l: > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for nabs-l: > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >2%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sat May 21 12:14:16 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 07:14:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: References: <4dd75051.82d6e60a.38be.21d6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: If only, Dr. Nemeth, could post here! I hope he's doing well. Has anyone heard from him? If so, please contact me, off list. Thanks, Joshua On 5/21/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: > I am not saying that Nemeth should be replaced, but I do feel that people > need to realize that the Nemeth Code itself replaced what was called the > Taylor > Code in the 1950's and it was a pretty complete change. From what I know > about the Taylor code, it was not as complete as is Nemeth, so it seemed to > be a good move. The point is that we had to go through a significant change > and we made it. Any change should not be made lightly, though, and we > need to learn as much as we can about any change before supporting or > opposing it. We also need to understand what is happening in print as well. > I > am not a person who believes braille has to reflect print exactly, but there > are things that happen in print that play a role in education, particularly, > that > didn't happen fifty years ago. I have also traditionally opposed changing > braille just to make it easier to translate using a computer, but I think > that this now > plays a larger role with refreshable braille displays and access to > untranslated electronic texts. This all goes beyond Nemeth Code itself, > though. There > are things that might be done that are less aggressive than a unified code > like UEB or NUBS, I don't claim to be an expert there. I simply don't think > we > should oppose something because it is change, nor should we embrace > something simply because it is new. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Sat, 21 May 2011 01:39:43 -0400, Josh Gregory wrote: > >>People have talked about losing Nemeth as far as I understand it. >>That, (JMHO) will not happen. We as blind people have become so >>used to it, that, if another code were to be introduced, as >>others have rightfully said, it'd take a while for it to be >>adopted, as well as for us to learn it. So I don't think Nemeth >>will vanish and I like it more than UEB because it has more of >>what I'm used to, contractions. While I * could * learn and use >>it, for me, Nemeth is the way to go. >>Josh > >>sent from my Apex > >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: Greg Aikens >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 00:25:40 -0500 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > >>Hi Chris, >>I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In >>print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. In >>braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and >>letters depending on context. The unified system would >>theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to determine >>what a text says, making it more like print. > >>The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to >>learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, >>and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is >>rather clunky and unwieldy. > >>I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code >>would be better than the current systems used. But having one >>code does seem like it might simplify things. > >>Just my thoughts, >>Greg > >>On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, -ris Nusbaum wrote: > >> Hi Greg, > >> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, >>don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for >>literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are >>different symbols for different operations in math than they are >>in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is >>affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? > >> Chris > >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities >>motto) > >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Greg Aikens > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > >> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the >>code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with >>literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended >>by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have >>not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so >>I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction >>here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools >>can be improved and better used in general though. > >> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of >>unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which >>integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a >>challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new >>code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than >>mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. > >> -Greg > > >> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > >> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >> Nemeth Code will stay around! >> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >> Blessings, Joshua > > >> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the >>main >> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college >>Algebra. > >> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. > >> Mike > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >> To: NABS-L >> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > >> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in >>general. What >> about the future of Nemeth? >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>info for >> nabs-l: >> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>info for >> nabs-l: >> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >> ydude%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>info for >> nabs-l: >> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >> 62%40students.pccua.edu > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>info for nabs-l: >> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >> 40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>info for nabs-l: >> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>info for nabs-l: >> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>40gmail.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >>2%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat May 21 14:04:44 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 08:04:44 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: References: <4dd75051.82d6e60a.38be.21d6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Joshua, From what I know of the man, he'd be the first to accept changes made to the code if they were constructive. Best, Kirt On 5/21/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > If only, Dr. Nemeth, could post here! > I hope he's doing well. > Has anyone heard from him? > If so, please contact me, off list. > Thanks, Joshua > > On 5/21/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> I am not saying that Nemeth should be replaced, but I do feel that people >> need to realize that the Nemeth Code itself replaced what was called the >> Taylor >> Code in the 1950's and it was a pretty complete change. From what I know >> about the Taylor code, it was not as complete as is Nemeth, so it seemed >> to >> be a good move. The point is that we had to go through a significant >> change >> and we made it. Any change should not be made lightly, though, and we >> need to learn as much as we can about any change before supporting or >> opposing it. We also need to understand what is happening in print as >> well. >> I >> am not a person who believes braille has to reflect print exactly, but >> there >> are things that happen in print that play a role in education, >> particularly, >> that >> didn't happen fifty years ago. I have also traditionally opposed changing >> braille just to make it easier to translate using a computer, but I think >> that this now >> plays a larger role with refreshable braille displays and access to >> untranslated electronic texts. This all goes beyond Nemeth Code itself, >> though. There >> are things that might be done that are less aggressive than a unified code >> like UEB or NUBS, I don't claim to be an expert there. I simply don't >> think >> we >> should oppose something because it is change, nor should we embrace >> something simply because it is new. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Sat, 21 May 2011 01:39:43 -0400, Josh Gregory wrote: >> >>>People have talked about losing Nemeth as far as I understand it. >>>That, (JMHO) will not happen. We as blind people have become so >>>used to it, that, if another code were to be introduced, as >>>others have rightfully said, it'd take a while for it to be >>>adopted, as well as for us to learn it. So I don't think Nemeth >>>will vanish and I like it more than UEB because it has more of >>>what I'm used to, contractions. While I * could * learn and use >>>it, for me, Nemeth is the way to go. >>>Josh >> >>>sent from my Apex >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: Greg Aikens >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 00:25:40 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >>>Hi Chris, >>>I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In >>>print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. In >>>braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and >>>letters depending on context. The unified system would >>>theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to determine >>>what a text says, making it more like print. >> >>>The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to >>>learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, >>>and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is >>>rather clunky and unwieldy. >> >>>I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code >>>would be better than the current systems used. But having one >>>code does seem like it might simplify things. >> >>>Just my thoughts, >>>Greg >> >>>On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, -ris Nusbaum wrote: >> >>> Hi Greg, >> >>> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, >>>don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for >>>literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are >>>different symbols for different operations in math than they are >>>in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is >>>affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? >> >>> Chris >> >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities >>>motto) >> >>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Greg Aikens >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >>> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the >>>code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with >>>literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended >>>by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have >>>not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so >>>I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction >>>here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools >>>can be improved and better used in general though. >> >>> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of >>>unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which >>>integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a >>>challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new >>>code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than >>>mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. >> >>> -Greg >> >> >>> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> >>> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >>> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >>> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >>> Nemeth Code will stay around! >>> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >>> Blessings, Joshua >> >> >>> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the >>>main >>> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college >>>Algebra. >> >>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >> >>> Mike >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>> To: NABS-L >>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in >>>general. What >>> about the future of Nemeth? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>> anix.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>> ydude%40gmail.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >>> 62%40students.pccua.edu >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>info for nabs-l: >>> >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>> 40gmail.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>info for nabs-l: >>> >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>info for nabs-l: >>> >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>>40gmail.com >> >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>for nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >>>2%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sat May 21 14:13:26 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 09:13:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: References: <4dd75051.82d6e60a.38be.21d6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I know. I'd just like to know how he's doing. Blessings, Joshua On 5/21/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Joshua, > From what I know of the man, he'd be the first to accept changes > made to the code if they were constructive. > Best, > Kirt > > On 5/21/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >> If only, Dr. Nemeth, could post here! >> I hope he's doing well. >> Has anyone heard from him? >> If so, please contact me, off list. >> Thanks, Joshua >> >> On 5/21/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>> I am not saying that Nemeth should be replaced, but I do feel that people >>> need to realize that the Nemeth Code itself replaced what was called the >>> Taylor >>> Code in the 1950's and it was a pretty complete change. From what I know >>> about the Taylor code, it was not as complete as is Nemeth, so it seemed >>> to >>> be a good move. The point is that we had to go through a significant >>> change >>> and we made it. Any change should not be made lightly, though, and we >>> need to learn as much as we can about any change before supporting or >>> opposing it. We also need to understand what is happening in print as >>> well. >>> I >>> am not a person who believes braille has to reflect print exactly, but >>> there >>> are things that happen in print that play a role in education, >>> particularly, >>> that >>> didn't happen fifty years ago. I have also traditionally opposed >>> changing >>> braille just to make it easier to translate using a computer, but I think >>> that this now >>> plays a larger role with refreshable braille displays and access to >>> untranslated electronic texts. This all goes beyond Nemeth Code itself, >>> though. There >>> are things that might be done that are less aggressive than a unified >>> code >>> like UEB or NUBS, I don't claim to be an expert there. I simply don't >>> think >>> we >>> should oppose something because it is change, nor should we embrace >>> something simply because it is new. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> On Sat, 21 May 2011 01:39:43 -0400, Josh Gregory wrote: >>> >>>>People have talked about losing Nemeth as far as I understand it. >>>>That, (JMHO) will not happen. We as blind people have become so >>>>used to it, that, if another code were to be introduced, as >>>>others have rightfully said, it'd take a while for it to be >>>>adopted, as well as for us to learn it. So I don't think Nemeth >>>>will vanish and I like it more than UEB because it has more of >>>>what I'm used to, contractions. While I * could * learn and use >>>>it, for me, Nemeth is the way to go. >>>>Josh >>> >>>>sent from my Apex >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: Greg Aikens >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 00:25:40 -0500 >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>> >>>>Hi Chris, >>>>I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In >>>>print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. In >>>>braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and >>>>letters depending on context. The unified system would >>>>theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to determine >>>>what a text says, making it more like print. >>> >>>>The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to >>>>learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, >>>>and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is >>>>rather clunky and unwieldy. >>> >>>>I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code >>>>would be better than the current systems used. But having one >>>>code does seem like it might simplify things. >>> >>>>Just my thoughts, >>>>Greg >>> >>>>On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, -ris Nusbaum wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Greg, >>> >>>> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, >>>>don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for >>>>literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are >>>>different symbols for different operations in math than they are >>>>in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is >>>>affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? >>> >>>> Chris >>> >>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities >>>>motto) >>> >>>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Greg Aikens >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>> >>>> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the >>>>code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with >>>>literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended >>>>by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have >>>>not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so >>>>I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction >>>>here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools >>>>can be improved and better used in general though. >>> >>>> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of >>>>unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which >>>>integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a >>>>challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new >>>>code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than >>>>mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. >>> >>>> -Greg >>> >>> >>>> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>> >>>> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >>>> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >>>> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >>>> Nemeth Code will stay around! >>>> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >>>> Blessings, Joshua >>> >>> >>>> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the >>>>main >>>> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college >>>>Algebra. >>> >>>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>> >>>> Mike >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>>> To: NABS-L >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>> >>>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in >>>>general. What >>>> about the future of Nemeth? >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>>> anix.com >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>>> ydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >>>> 62%40students.pccua.edu >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>info for nabs-l: >>>> >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>info for nabs-l: >>>> >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>info for nabs-l: >>>> >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>>>40gmail.com >>> >>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>for nabs-l: >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >>>>2%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From dianefilipe at peoplepc.com Sat May 21 14:48:36 2011 From: dianefilipe at peoplepc.com (Diane) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 08:48:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] 2011 NFB National Convention Agenda now available! Message-ID: <20EC7B62A4EE46449E41BD1B631AB982@DianePC> Subject: [il-talk] 2011 NFB National Convention Agenda now available! Good evening everyone, The agenda for the 2011 NFB National Convention is now available and may be downloaded by navigating to the following link: http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/documents/word/2011_Agenda_FINAL.doc I am also attaching the document to this message for additional convenience. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > il-talk mailing list > il-talk at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/il-talk_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > il-talk: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/il-talk_nfbnet.org/dianefilipe%40peoplepc.com > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2011_Agenda_FINAL.doc Type: application/msword Size: 3041280 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat May 21 14:52:48 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 10:52:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB Message-ID: <4dd7d1d3.82d6e60a.38be.26fa@mx.google.com> Thanks,=20Kirt!=20I=20appreciate=20the=20kind=20words.=20=20To=20answer=20y= our=20 question,=20I=20wasn't=20really=20introduced=20to=20the=20Federation=20 originally,=20my=20parents=20were.=20=20Therefore,=20I=20was=20a=20member=20= of=20the=20 Federation=20with=20my=20parents=20and=20liked a=20lot=20of=20what=20I=20heard.=20=20I=20went=20to=20one=20of=20the=20NFB= =20sponsored=20 training=20center=20programs=20and=20learned=20a=20lot.=20=20Then=20recentl= y=20I=20went=20 to=20the=20NFB=20LAW=20Program=20at=20the=20national=20center,=20the=20firs= t=20program=20 I'd=20ever=20gone=20to=20at=20the=20Jernigan=20Institute.=20=20That=20progr= am=20just=20 strengthened=20my=20belief=20in=20the=20Federation=20philosophy.=20=20But=20= I=20still=20 felt=20that=20the=20views=20I=20was=20hearing=20were=20kind=20of=20extreme,= =20so=20I=20 wanted=20to=20learn=20more=20about=20the=20philosophy=20of=20the=20NFB=20be= fore=20I=20 totally=20threw=20my=20support=20behind=20them.=20=20After=20listening=20to= =20some=20 stuff=20on=20nfb.org,=20I=20asked=20this=20list=20and=20the=20other=20list= =20I'm=20on=20my=20 "what=20is=20Federationism?"=20question=20so=20I=20knew=20people's=20person= al=20 feelings=20about=20Federationism.=20=20Once=20I=20read=20a=20lot=20of=20pos= ts=20on=20this=20 subject=20and=20learned=20about=20the=20real=20NFB=20philosophy,=20I=20deci= ded=20to=20 join=20the=20Federation=20as=20a=20total=20Federationist!!!!!=20Yea!!!!!=20= So=20 really,=20my=20decision=20to=20join=20the=20Federation=20myself=20was=20mos= tly=20 because=20of=20your=20insight!=20Thanks=20guys!!! Chris "A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abilit= ies=20motto) ---=20Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Kirt=20Manwaring=20=20wrote: =20I=20agree=20completely,=20Kirt!=20Great=20points! =20=20Chris =20"A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abi= lities=20 motto) =20---=20Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote =20=20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20Kirt=20Manwaring=20=20wrote: =20=20You=20know,=20one=20thing=20that=20I=20would=20like=20to=20add=20to=20= this=20discussion =20is =20=20the=20following=20=20"what=20ideas=20would=20you=20=20suggest=20to=20= improve=20what =20you=20may =20=20think=20needs=20improving?" =20=20=20=20I=20think=20it's=20=20really=20easy=20for=20all=20of=20us=20to= =20get=20into=20the=20=20 habit =20of =20=20mentioning=20what=20isn't=20happening.=20=20Sometimes,=20it's=20=20no= t=20so=20much=20 a =20matter =20=20=20that=20no=20one=20is=20aware=20of=20an=20issue=20(sometimes,=20on= =20the=20other=20 hand, =20this =20=20in=20fact=20may=20be=20the=20case),=20but=20suggestions=20on=20how=20= to=20improve=20are =20also =20=20very=20valuable.=20=20=20Remember,=20we=20never=20roll=20out=20of=20b= ed=20with=20the =20answers! =20=20=20=20Best, =20=20=20=20Darian =20=20On=205/19/11,=20Jorge=20Paez=20=20wr= ote: =20=20=09I=20don't=20think=20we're=20doing=20enough=20with=20the =20middleschool/elementary =20=20population. =20=20We=20need=20to=20get=20the=20message=20out=20faster, =20=20to=20the=20younger=20kids. =20=20On=20May=2019,=202011,=20at=209:00=20PM,=20dsmithnfb at gmail.com=20wrot= e: =20=20Let's=20bring=20this=20conversation=20fourth.=20=20What=20do=20people= =20think =20about=20this =20=20question? =20=20Sent=20from=20my=20iPhone =20=20On=20May=2019,=202011,=20at=205:39=20PM,=20"Tina=20Hansen"=20 Message-ID: I attended under grad at Manhattanville College in Westchester County, NY. I'm getting my masters in Social Work. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 11:43 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction Cerena, What are you in grad school for and where did you attend undergrad? -----Original Message----- From: Serena Cucco Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 8:44 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction Hi Josh, I'm in grad school. I lived on campus in college and live here at home for grad school. I've done quite well taking in-class courses. I have to take 2 online this summer. We'll see how they go. As far as the wheelchair factor, I suppose the practicality of living on campus would depend on your reason for using a wheelchair. Although I'm not a wheelchair user myself, one of my sighted friends from college is. He lived on campus ... His using a wheelchair never stopped him! He's quite mature and approachable. If you have any specific wheelchair-related questions, I'm sure he'd be happy to answer them, either through me or possibly directly. Serena -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Josh Gregory Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 8:25 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction Hi all, I'm a little curious here, what do people think on this? For us blind students who are about to graduate from high school soon (I'm a junior this year and will be a senior next) college is something some of us look into. So, my question: Do people think that online college is more accessible for blind people, or classroom instruction? If I may ask, what have people's experiences been with both? What about a person who is blind and partially in a wheelchair such as myself, could I manage in an on-campus environment or would online instruction be better for me? Thanks so much, Josh Sent from my Apex _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serena.c.cucco%40gma il.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serena.c.cucco%40gma il.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat May 21 15:46:14 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 09:46:14 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: References: <4dd75051.82d6e60a.38be.21d6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Joshua, So you met him? I'm a little jealous. On 5/21/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > I know. > I'd just like to know how he's doing. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 5/21/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Joshua, >> From what I know of the man, he'd be the first to accept changes >> made to the code if they were constructive. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/21/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >>> If only, Dr. Nemeth, could post here! >>> I hope he's doing well. >>> Has anyone heard from him? >>> If so, please contact me, off list. >>> Thanks, Joshua >>> >>> On 5/21/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>> I am not saying that Nemeth should be replaced, but I do feel that >>>> people >>>> need to realize that the Nemeth Code itself replaced what was called the >>>> Taylor >>>> Code in the 1950's and it was a pretty complete change. From what I >>>> know >>>> about the Taylor code, it was not as complete as is Nemeth, so it seemed >>>> to >>>> be a good move. The point is that we had to go through a significant >>>> change >>>> and we made it. Any change should not be made lightly, though, and we >>>> need to learn as much as we can about any change before supporting or >>>> opposing it. We also need to understand what is happening in print as >>>> well. >>>> I >>>> am not a person who believes braille has to reflect print exactly, but >>>> there >>>> are things that happen in print that play a role in education, >>>> particularly, >>>> that >>>> didn't happen fifty years ago. I have also traditionally opposed >>>> changing >>>> braille just to make it easier to translate using a computer, but I >>>> think >>>> that this now >>>> plays a larger role with refreshable braille displays and access to >>>> untranslated electronic texts. This all goes beyond Nemeth Code itself, >>>> though. There >>>> are things that might be done that are less aggressive than a unified >>>> code >>>> like UEB or NUBS, I don't claim to be an expert there. I simply don't >>>> think >>>> we >>>> should oppose something because it is change, nor should we embrace >>>> something simply because it is new. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> >>>> On Sat, 21 May 2011 01:39:43 -0400, Josh Gregory wrote: >>>> >>>>>People have talked about losing Nemeth as far as I understand it. >>>>>That, (JMHO) will not happen. We as blind people have become so >>>>>used to it, that, if another code were to be introduced, as >>>>>others have rightfully said, it'd take a while for it to be >>>>>adopted, as well as for us to learn it. So I don't think Nemeth >>>>>will vanish and I like it more than UEB because it has more of >>>>>what I'm used to, contractions. While I * could * learn and use >>>>>it, for me, Nemeth is the way to go. >>>>>Josh >>>> >>>>>sent from my Apex >>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: Greg Aikens >>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 00:25:40 -0500 >>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>> >>>>>Hi Chris, >>>>>I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In >>>>>print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. In >>>>>braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and >>>>>letters depending on context. The unified system would >>>>>theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to determine >>>>>what a text says, making it more like print. >>>> >>>>>The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to >>>>>learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, >>>>>and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is >>>>>rather clunky and unwieldy. >>>> >>>>>I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code >>>>>would be better than the current systems used. But having one >>>>>code does seem like it might simplify things. >>>> >>>>>Just my thoughts, >>>>>Greg >>>> >>>>>On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, -ris Nusbaum wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Greg, >>>> >>>>> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, >>>>>don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for >>>>>literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are >>>>>different symbols for different operations in math than they are >>>>>in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is >>>>>affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? >>>> >>>>> Chris >>>> >>>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities >>>>>motto) >>>> >>>>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Greg Aikens >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>> >>>>> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the >>>>>code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with >>>>>literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended >>>>>by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have >>>>>not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so >>>>>I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction >>>>>here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools >>>>>can be improved and better used in general though. >>>> >>>>> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of >>>>>unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which >>>>>integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a >>>>>challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new >>>>>code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than >>>>>mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. >>>> >>>>> -Greg >>>> >>>> >>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>> >>>>> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >>>>> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >>>>> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >>>>> Nemeth Code will stay around! >>>>> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the >>>>>main >>>>> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college >>>>>Algebra. >>>> >>>>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>>> >>>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>>>> To: NABS-L >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>> >>>>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in >>>>>general. What >>>>> about the future of Nemeth? >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>>>> anix.com >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>>>> ydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >>>>> 62%40students.pccua.edu >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>info for nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>info for nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>>>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>info for nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>>>>40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>for nabs-l: >>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >>>>>2%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Sat May 21 16:02:36 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 09:02:36 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Random Question Message-ID: Has anyone found a misspelling to make Jaws correctly pronounce Preakness? From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sat May 21 16:30:26 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 12:30:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Message-ID: <4dd7e8d5.5069e50a.7aee.ffff9880@mx.google.com> I understand, I misinterpreted, my apologies. And I agree with you. Josh sent from my Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" wrote: I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What about the future of Nemeth? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat May 21 16:50:58 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 10:50:58 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Random Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: priekness!...I don't know. How the hell is it supposed to be pronounced? On 5/21/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > Has anyone found a misspelling to make Jaws correctly pronounce Preakness? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sat May 21 16:57:55 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 12:57:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Message-ID: <4dd7ef46.06a3e60a.0fbc.61cf@mx.google.com> Well, if memory serves me correctly, I think he (Dr Nemeth) spoke at the Maryland Regional Braille Challenge last year. I think he talked about both the importance of braille and Nemeth, and a bit about his code, NUBS, which would be implemented. It was pretty cool to hear him speak about it. Don't think I remember meeting him, though. Josh sent from my Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: I know. I'd just like to know how he's doing. Blessings, Joshua On 5/21/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: Joshua, From what I know of the man, he'd be the first to accept changes made to the code if they were constructive. Best, Kirt On 5/21/11, Joshua Lester wrote: If only, Dr. Nemeth, could post here! I hope he's doing well. Has anyone heard from him? If so, please contact me, off list. Thanks, Joshua On 5/21/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: I am not saying that Nemeth should be replaced, but I do feel that people need to realize that the Nemeth Code itself replaced what was called the Taylor Code in the 1950's and it was a pretty complete change. From what I know about the Taylor code, it was not as complete as is Nemeth, so it seemed to be a good move. The point is that we had to go through a significant change and we made it. Any change should not be made lightly, though, and we need to learn as much as we can about any change before supporting or opposing it. We also need to understand what is happening in print as well. I am not a person who believes braille has to reflect print exactly, but there are things that happen in print that play a role in education, particularly, that didn't happen fifty years ago. I have also traditionally opposed changing braille just to make it easier to translate using a computer, but I think that this now plays a larger role with refreshable braille displays and access to untranslated electronic texts. This all goes beyond Nemeth Code itself, though. There are things that might be done that are less aggressive than a unified code like UEB or NUBS, I don't claim to be an expert there. I simply don't think we should oppose something because it is change, nor should we embrace something simply because it is new. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Sat, 21 May 2011 01:39:43 -0400, Josh Gregory wrote: People have talked about losing Nemeth as far as I understand it. That, (JMHO) will not happen. We as blind people have become so used to it, that, if another code were to be introduced, as others have rightfully said, it'd take a while for it to be adopted, as well as for us to learn it. So I don't think Nemeth will vanish and I like it more than UEB because it has more of what I'm used to, contractions. While I * could * learn and use it, for me, Nemeth is the way to go. Josh sent from my Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Aikens wrote: I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What about the future of Nemeth? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sat May 21 17:03:55 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 13:03:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Random Question Message-ID: <4dd7f0ae.05a2e60a.3528.63c3@mx.google.com> Ah yeah that's tonight, isn't it... Nicole, What about "preekness?" Josh sent from my Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" References: Message-ID: preek nis (with a space between preek and nis) should do the trick. On 5/21/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > priekness!...I don't know. How the hell is it supposed to be pronounced? > > On 5/21/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: >> Has anyone found a misspelling to make Jaws correctly pronounce Preakness? >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > From z.dreicer at emissives.com Sat May 21 15:28:04 2011 From: z.dreicer at emissives.com (dreicer, zachary) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 09:28:04 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] programing environments Message-ID: <20110521153333.19AA4C5ACE@mail1-backupmx.mn2.visi.com> for one, dr. python. Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez References: <4dd6cccc.d8a3e60a.73f8.51eb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, such a goal is a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers are used that the code becomes unwieldy. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: > Hi Chris, > I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. In braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and letters depending on context. The unified system would theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to determine what a text says, making it more like print. > > The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is rather clunky and unwieldy. > > I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code would be better than the current systems used. But having one code does seem like it might simplify things. > > Just my thoughts, > Greg > > On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: > >> Hi Greg, >> >> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are different symbols for different operations in math than they are in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Greg Aikens > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools can be improved and better used in general though. >> >> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. >> >> -Greg >> >> >> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> >> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >> Nemeth Code will stay around! >> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> >> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >> >> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >> To: NABS-L >> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What >> about the future of Nemeth? >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >> ydude%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >> 62%40students.pccua.edu >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >> 40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat May 21 18:13:03 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 12:13:03 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Random Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey! I was right! Kind of. On 5/21/11, Jewel wrote: > preek nis (with a space between preek and nis) should do the trick. > > On 5/21/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> priekness!...I don't know. How the hell is it supposed to be pronounced? >> >> On 5/21/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: >>> Has anyone found a misspelling to make Jaws correctly pronounce >>> Preakness? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat May 21 18:20:29 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 14:20:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction Message-ID: <4dd8027f.05a2e60a.3528.64fa@mx.google.com> Ashley, You bring up an interesting issue. My middle school, too does peer editing of papers, where we hook up with a partner and read and make revisions to each other's handwritten rough drafts before we type them for our final copy. But if you're mainstreamed in a class with sighted people, how do you handle those situations? I have to resort to a reader because my instructional assistant wouldn't have time to scan and Braille it. But are there ways that you all handle these peer editing times independently? Do you request your partner's paper ahead of time and scan it into Kurzweil or OpenBook? Will those OCR softwares scan handwritten materials? In college, are even rough drafts typed into a computer, so you ask your partner to email their draft to you? I would be interested to hear all of your strategies! By the way, I hope to see many of you on the call tomorrow! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: But=20my=20point=20is=20if=20print=20readers=20use=20different=20symbols=20= for=20 letters=20than=20numbers=20and=20math=20symbols, why=20do=20we=20need=20the=20same=20symbols=20for=20numbers=20and=20letters= =20in=20 Braille?=20So=20then...=20=20would=20you=20also=20recommend=20a=20unified=20= code=20for=20 print? =20Chris "A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abilit= ies=20motto) ---=20Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Greg=20Aikens=20=20wrote: =20I'm=20with=20Mike=20here.=20=20Nemeth=20is=20absolutely=20brilliant-prob= ably=20the=20 main =20reason=20(aside=20from=20awesome=20tutors)=20I=20was=20able=20to=20pass= =20college=20 Algebra. =20On=205/19/11,=20Mike=20Freeman=20=20wrote: =20It'll=20stay=20around=20if=20I=20have=20anything=20to=20do=20with=20it. =20Mike =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org=20 [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]=20On =20Behalf =20Of=20Nicole=20B.=20=20Torcolini=20at=20Home =20Sent:=20Thursday,=20May=2019,=202011=207:53=20PM =20To:=20NABS-L =20Subject:=20[nabs-l]=20The=20Future=20of=20Nemeth? =20Many=20people=20have=20been=20talking=20about=20the=20future=20of=20Brai= lle=20in=20 general.=20=20What =20about=20the=20future=20of=20Nemeth? =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p =20anix.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz =20ydude%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 =2062%40students.pccua.edu =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% =2040gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu =20sbaum%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat May 21 18:32:54 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 14:32:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Message-ID: <4dd80569.97abe60a.4d62.61e7@mx.google.com> I know, right? Haven't heard anything from him or about him since the Louis Braille coin launch, though. However, I don't think he would be on the students list. * Smile! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: I am not saying that Nemeth should be replaced, but I do feel that people need to realize that the Nemeth Code itself replaced what was called the Taylor Code in the 1950's and it was a pretty complete change. From what I know about the Taylor code, it was not as complete as is Nemeth, so it seemed to be a good move. The point is that we had to go through a significant change and we made it. Any change should not be made lightly, though, and we need to learn as much as we can about any change before supporting or opposing it. We also need to understand what is happening in print as well. I am not a person who believes braille has to reflect print exactly, but there are things that happen in print that play a role in education, particularly, that didn't happen fifty years ago. I have also traditionally opposed changing braille just to make it easier to translate using a computer, but I think that this now plays a larger role with refreshable braille displays and access to untranslated electronic texts. This all goes beyond Nemeth Code itself, though. There are things that might be done that are less aggressive than a unified code like UEB or NUBS, I don't claim to be an expert there. I simply don't think we should oppose something because it is change, nor should we embrace something simply because it is new. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Sat, 21 May 2011 01:39:43 -0400, Josh Gregory wrote: People have talked about losing Nemeth as far as I understand it. That, (JMHO) will not happen. We as blind people have become so used to it, that, if another code were to be introduced, as others have rightfully said, it'd take a while for it to be adopted, as well as for us to learn it. So I don't think Nemeth will vanish and I like it more than UEB because it has more of what I'm used to, contractions. While I * could * learn and use it, for me, Nemeth is the way to go. Josh sent from my Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Aikens wrote: I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What about the future of Nemeth? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat May 21 18:34:54 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 12:34:54 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: References: <4dd6cccc.d8a3e60a.73f8.51eb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Mike, I agree 100 percent-as it is, braille is already more unwieldy, in my opinion, than print. (I'm not saying it's more inferior) One need only to look at braille music versus print music to see that braille is a lot more cumbersome than print and takes a lot of creativity to put together in to an effective system. Braille music is great-but it's a bit more stretched and novel than its print counterpart. No need to compound the issue. On 5/21/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, such a goal is a > pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers are used that the code > becomes unwieldy. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: > >> Hi Chris, >> I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In print, >> different symbols are used for math and for letters. In braille, we use >> the same symbols to represent both math and letters depending on context. >> The unified system would theoretically eliminate much of the need for >> context to determine what a text says, making it more like print. >> >> The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to learn, >> instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, and one for >> computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is rather clunky and >> unwieldy. >> >> I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code would be >> better than the current systems used. But having one code does seem like >> it might simplify things. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> Greg >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, don't get >>> me wrong) is that there are different symbols for literary and math print >>> as far as I know. In print, there are different symbols for different >>> operations in math than they are in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print >>> expert here or is affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this >>> for me? >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>> >>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Greg Aikens >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>> >>> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the code, trying >>> to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with literary braille. I would >>> be surprised if he would be offended by a discussion of the future of his >>> code. Admittedly, I have not followed the threads talking about the >>> future of braille, so I probably don't understand the context for >>> Joshua's reaction here. I do think its good to think critically about >>> how tools can be improved and better used in general though. >>> >>> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of unified >>> braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which integrates math and >>> literary braille. This seems like a challenging problem to solve, and >>> widespread adoption of a new code will take quite a while, but >>> fortunately better minds than mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started >>> working on this problem. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> >>> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>> >>> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >>> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >>> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >>> Nemeth Code will stay around! >>> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >>> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>> To: NABS-L >>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>> >>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. >>> What >>> about the future of Nemeth? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>> anix.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>> ydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >>> 62%40students.pccua.edu >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat May 21 18:59:54 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 14:59:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Random Question Message-ID: <4dd80bbc.a64ee50a.4104.ffff9d51@mx.google.com> Hmm... oh, I just found one! Priekness. P r i e k n e s s Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Josh Gregory References: <4dd8027f.05a2e60a.3528.64fa@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4DA2F413-0CFC-41A7-907C-5CD5D0543F5C@panix.com> OCR software doesn't handle handwriting well. But I don't see a problem here: have your partner read his/her work to you. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 21, 2011, at 11:20, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Ashley, > > You bring up an interesting issue. My middle school, too does peer editing of papers, where we hook up with a partner and read and make revisions to each other's handwritten rough drafts before we type them for our final copy. But if you're mainstreamed in a class with sighted people, how do you handle those situations? I have to resort to a reader because my instructional assistant wouldn't have time to scan and Braille it. But are there ways that you all handle these peer editing times independently? Do you request your partner's paper ahead of time and scan it into Kurzweil or OpenBook? Will those OCR softwares scan handwritten materials? In college, are even rough drafts typed into a computer, so you ask your partner to email their draft to you? I would be interested to hear all of your strategies! By the way, I hope to see many of you on the call tomorrow! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 00:16:41 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction > > Josh, > You have a lot to consider with being a student coupled with the wheelchair. > I went to the traditional classroom all through college. I went to a big > state run school and then transferred to a smaller private school, Marymount > university. > No, online college is not more accessible. Things like the From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat May 21 18:47:11 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 12:47:11 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <4dd80446.8d8de50a.35dc.ffff9d7f@mx.google.com> References: <4dd80446.8d8de50a.35dc.ffff9d7f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Chris, I'm not recommending a unified code. All I'm saying is that, because braille is limited to a relatively small number of dot combinations, and in print you can pretty much draw whatever the hell you want, we're better off with the separate codes as they stand, with modifications to each code as the need arises. In other words-there aren't enough possible things you can do with braille to make a unified code, with separate symbols for letters and numbers and music and computer characters practical. Braille is equal to print. Braille is not print. Warmly, Kirt On 5/21/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > But my point is if print readers use different symbols for > letters than numbers and math symbols, > why do we need the same symbols for numbers and letters in > Braille? So then... would you also recommend a unified code for > print? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Greg Aikens To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 00:25:40 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Hi Chris, > I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In > print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. In > braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and > letters depending on context. The unified system would > theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to determine > what a text says, making it more like print. > > The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to > learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, > and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is > rather clunky and unwieldy. > > I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code > would be better than the current systems used. But having one > code does seem like it might simplify things. > > Just my thoughts, > Greg > > On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, 혇is Nusbaum wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, > don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for > literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are > different symbols for different operations in math than they are > in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is > affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities > motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Greg Aikens To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the > code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with > literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended > by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have > not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so > I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction > here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools > can be improved and better used in general though. > > As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of > unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which > integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a > challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new > code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than > mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. > > -Greg > > > On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. > I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being > changed, or it becoming obsilete. > Nemeth Code will stay around! > I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! > Blessings, Joshua > > > On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the > main > reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college > Algebra. > > On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM > To: NABS-L > Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in > general. What > about the future of Nemeth? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 > 62%40students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > From k7uij at panix.com Sat May 21 19:34:06 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 12:34:06 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: <3C527872-DFB9-4C93-B615-FBA1D550A907@gmail.com> References: <30830473-6911-469A-ADBB-1ECB048A64B1@gmail.com> <00b401cc1699$53396720$f9ac3560$@panix.com> <3C527872-DFB9-4C93-B615-FBA1D550A907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3745BA25-05DF-4A36-86FC-6AF394F85337@panix.com> Kirt is correct: we always try to negotiate before we contemplate legal action. But when entities won't negotiate, our only choices are to capitulate, sue or bring adverse publicity to bear. What NFB actions do you consider arrogant? Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 20, 2011, at 16:08, Jorge Paez wrote: > Hi Kirt: > Agree completely. > I think (and I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular), that there has been arrogance in some of our NFB members--weather in the leadership or out of it, which has damaged the whole organization. > I'm saying its time we present ourselves in a calmer way. > I'm not saying not to fight for our rights. > If we lose our values we may as well lose the federation--our values is afterall what unites us, but we have to not have that "comply or I'll sue you" mentality, because honestly I'm getting the impression we sometimes don't even try and negotiate anything, and just sue companies without any kind of dialogue taking place outside of the court. > > Jorge > > > On May 20, 2011, at 4:12 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >> Mike, >> Very true. But, from my experience, a lot of that boils down to how >> we present our philosophy. I've heard comments from some TVIS like >> "they wouldn't even listen to me", "they acted like I didn't even >> matter", "they ignored everything I said", etc. While I'm not denying >> our philosophy places us in conflict with some TVIS (not as many as >> some people like to think), I think if we present our philosophy in a >> level-headed, civil, agreeable manner, even those who disagree with us >> will be more compelled to do so agreeably. Making the conflict less >> vitriolic and bitter would do a lot to improve the way we're presented >> by TVIS, even many of the TVIS who don't agree with our philosophy. >> That's all I'm saying-I'm not saying we compromise the tenets we hold >> dear, I'm not saying we change our philosophy, only that we respect >> and sincerely make an effort to at least listen to the philosophies of >> others without letting emotions get in the way. >> Warmly, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>> ... hate it when posts get cut off... >>> Anyway, we should make the connection with TVIs, TTBs (whatever term >>> you like to use) where we can and tell our story, or so I think. Have >>> any folks found success in doing so in your respective divisions? >>> >>> what are ways people think we can do a better job as students in the >>> organization of inviting younger students to get involved? how did you >>> (if you are a middle/high school student) decide to get involved? >>> >>> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> I think there are valid points to what both Mike and Kirt are saying. >>>> However, I would think you could make that argument for any segment of >>>> the blindness community, and I think that as members of student >>>> divisions-( the population that TVIs serve) we should make more of an >>>> effort wherever possible to reach those j population >>>> >>>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>>> On the other hand, no matter how reasonably we present ourselves, our >>>>> philosophy in and of itself is such a threat to some TVIs that their ears >>>>> are closed. >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Kirt Manwaring >>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 6:57 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB >>>>> >>>>> Darian and all, >>>>> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission teachers. >>>>> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, itinerate >>>>> teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind >>>>> students, >>>>> and their parents, first impressions about blindness and thus they have a >>>>> huge influence on whatever expectations a student or parent develops >>>>> about >>>>> what is possible as a blind person. I think we need to put a lot more >>>>> energy in to sincerely dialoguing with these teachers, especially the >>>>> reasonable ones who don't agree with us (I'm not saying all teachers who >>>>> disagree with us are reasonable), to improve our image and the way we're >>>>> presented to students. Because my state affiliate is pretty good at >>>>> this, >>>>> my TVI, although she disagreed with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't >>>>> discourage me from coming to my own opinions and getting as much >>>>> firsthand >>>>> experience with the Federation as I could. Even those blindness >>>>> professionals who disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a >>>>> civil >>>>> and courteous manner, direct students to our organization. It happened >>>>> with >>>>> me. >>>>> Warmest regards, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion is >>>>>> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what you may >>>>>> think needs improving?" >>>>>> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit of >>>>>> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a matter >>>>>> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, this >>>>>> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are also >>>>>> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the answers! >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Darian >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>> I don't think we're doing enough with the middleschool/elementary >>>>>>> population. >>>>>>> We need to get the message out faster, to the younger kids. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think about >>>>>>>> this question? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, and >>>>>>>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to communicate >>>>>>>>> our message in a way that will reach people through new technologies. >>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%4 >>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertech >>>>>>>> jorgepaez%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Darian Smith >>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>>>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>>> >>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>>> >>>>>> - Robert Byrne >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude >>>>>> %40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Darian Smith >>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>> >>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>> >>>> — Robert Byrne >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> — Robert Byrne >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From k7uij at panix.com Sat May 21 19:46:28 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 12:46:28 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Good luck with your endeavors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <454AD5AA-1232-47F9-92B6-4CE46303BB69@panix.com> If I am not for myself, who will be for me? But if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when? -- Rabbi Hil-el Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 20, 2011, at 15:47, Darian Smith wrote: > Best of luck! At some point, it is expected that most of, if not all > of us may stepaway, but never too far away. > It's always good to think about yourself while you think about > others, and one daywe all have to truly consider ourselves to truly > be happy. > I wish you the best in acheving that complete happiness! > Darian > > On 5/20/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >> Dear Nabsters, >> >> I've not posted in weeks, but as many of you know, finals are a crazy, >> crazy time of year. Though my post have often been few and far between >> over the years, I've always enjoyed the lively discussions and plethora >> of information. My husband and I are stepping down from our various >> leadership positions so we can focus on personal, and professional >> goals. We are not quitting the Federation altogether, but we are taking >> a well deserved break. I wanted to say a few things before I take an >> extended absence from this list. >> >> I graduate in August, but I'm applying to different MFA programs for >> creative writing. I'm also interning with a public relations group this >> summer, which, only two weeks in, and I'm already busy with projects up >> to my eyes! *smile* My husband begins grad school in the fall, and we >> both are searching for new employment opportunities. I hope the future >> holds many more opportunities, and I'm figuring out what my next step >> will be. My husband and I are excited about some opportunities looming >> on the horizon including a family. We have reached a point when we want >> to focus our energies on personal goals, and find the balance between >> Federation involvement and everything else. The work we have >> accomplished with the NFB means a lot to us, but it is now time to >> accomplish goals for selfish reasons! *smile* >> >> As the future leaders in this organization, and the future voice of the >> blind, I encourage each of you to work diligently towards your dreams. >> Don't ever let anyone, including the NFB, tell you that your dreams are >> impossible. Obstacles only exist because we allow them. Keep this in >> mind, if it is difficult and scary, you are probably moving in the right >> direction. >> >> Strive to achieve as much independence as possible. The blind have >> limitations because society decided this long ago. We based our reality >> on perceptions, not truth. As blind people, we can achieve whatever we >> set our minds on. Let limitations be a thought of the past. >> >> Be efficient with your skills. Both partials and totals, prepare >> yourself for each and every situation. Don't let fears, ignorance and >> perceptions hold you back. Remember, the tools of the blind, Braille, >> canes and dogs, adaptive technology, are not badges of the handicapped, >> but are tools of the independent. Let's change the world's opinions by >> insisting they accept us, and our tools and methods, as capable, equal >> people. The better you are with the skills, the more success you will >> achieve, and people will recognize that blind people are not less >> capable. Your life is what you make it. If you grasp this, you will >> find a whole new world open to you. >> >> Learn from your past, but don't dwell on it. We can't change what has >> already happened. Grow from your experiences, but don't define your >> future by any negativity from the past. Live in the moment, but always >> think of the future. Your teens and twenties will fly by so chase your >> dreams now. If one avenue ends and does not bring what you hoped for, >> choose another route and keep moving. >> >> Do not allow blindness to define you. Blindness is but one part of you. >> You are a full person who has a lot to offer. Blindness does not make >> you completely different from anyone else, so don't let it become the >> defining aspect of you. >> >> Please, please keep an open mind in all things. Don't be ruled by what >> others tell you, or what you hear. Consider all sides before making >> decisions. No single person, or organization, has all the answers. >> Growth and change is good and should happen. With no growth, stagnancy >> occurs, and no one is helped when there is no forward movement. >> >> Keep your own council, and learn to make your own decisions. >> Questioning is not a bad thing. Do not be afraid to speak up and voice >> concerns and suggestions. If your voice is silenced, consider finding a >> new venue where your voice is appreciated. We expect the rest of the >> world to open their minds about blindness, let's not close our minds in >> return. Work to achieve true equality, which means sharing that >> equality. Open your mind to new experiences and people, and don't allow >> blindness to become a means of reverse prejudice. >> >> I'll still be around, and I may pop on the list from time to time, but I >> hope we all experience bright things in our future. For anyone >> interested, I will continue to advertise my blogs as many of you have >> been awesome supporters. >> >> Good luck in all your endeavors. >> >> Bridgit Pollpeter >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From k7uij at panix.com Sat May 21 19:55:41 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 12:55:41 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: References: <4dd6cccc.d8a3e60a.73f8.51eb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <8F239A7E-1141-41A3-B5DE-9A2F829206BB@panix.com> Disagree re Braille music; it's much more logical than print music. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 21, 2011, at 11:34, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Mike, > I agree 100 percent-as it is, braille is already more unwieldy, in > my opinion, than print. (I'm not saying it's more inferior) One need > only to look at braille music versus print music to see that braille > is a lot more cumbersome than print and takes a lot of creativity to > put together in to an effective system. Braille music is great-but > it's a bit more stretched and novel than its print counterpart. No > need to compound the issue. > > On 5/21/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, such a goal is a >> pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers are used that the code >> becomes unwieldy. >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: >> >>> Hi Chris, >>> I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In print, >>> different symbols are used for math and for letters. In braille, we use >>> the same symbols to represent both math and letters depending on context. >>> The unified system would theoretically eliminate much of the need for >>> context to determine what a text says, making it more like print. >>> >>> The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to learn, >>> instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, and one for >>> computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is rather clunky and >>> unwieldy. >>> >>> I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code would be >>> better than the current systems used. But having one code does seem like >>> it might simplify things. >>> >>> Just my thoughts, >>> Greg >>> >>> On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Greg, >>>> >>>> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, don't get >>>> me wrong) is that there are different symbols for literary and math print >>>> as far as I know. In print, there are different symbols for different >>>> operations in math than they are in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print >>>> expert here or is affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this >>>> for me? >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>>> >>>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Greg Aikens >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>> Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>> >>>> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the code, trying >>>> to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with literary braille. I would >>>> be surprised if he would be offended by a discussion of the future of his >>>> code. Admittedly, I have not followed the threads talking about the >>>> future of braille, so I probably don't understand the context for >>>> Joshua's reaction here. I do think its good to think critically about >>>> how tools can be improved and better used in general though. >>>> >>>> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of unified >>>> braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which integrates math and >>>> literary braille. This seems like a challenging problem to solve, and >>>> widespread adoption of a new code will take quite a while, but >>>> fortunately better minds than mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started >>>> working on this problem. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>> >>>> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >>>> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >>>> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >>>> Nemeth Code will stay around! >>>> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>> >>>> >>>> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >>>> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >>>> >>>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>>> To: NABS-L >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>> >>>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. >>>> What >>>> about the future of Nemeth? >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>>> anix.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>>> ydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >>>> 62%40students.pccua.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Sat May 21 19:48:32 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 12:48:32 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? References: <4dd80446.8d8de50a.35dc.ffff9d7f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I was going to say the exact same thing, but you beat me to it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 11:47 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > Chris, > I'm not recommending a unified code. All I'm saying is that, > because braille is limited to a relatively small number of dot > combinations, and in print you can pretty much draw whatever the hell > you want, we're better off with the separate codes as they stand, with > modifications to each code as the need arises. In other words-there > aren't enough possible things you can do with braille to make a > unified code, with separate symbols for letters and numbers and music > and computer characters practical. Braille is equal to print. > Braille is not print. > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/21/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> But my point is if print readers use different symbols for >> letters than numbers and math symbols, >> why do we need the same symbols for numbers and letters in >> Braille? So then... would you also recommend a unified code for >> print? >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Greg Aikens > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 00:25:40 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Hi Chris, >> I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In >> print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. In >> braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and >> letters depending on context. The unified system would >> theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to determine >> what a text says, making it more like print. >> >> The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to >> learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, >> and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is >> rather clunky and unwieldy. >> >> I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code >> would be better than the current systems used. But having one >> code does seem like it might simplify things. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> Greg >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, 혇is Nusbaum wrote: >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, >> don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for >> literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are >> different symbols for different operations in math than they are >> in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is >> affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities >> motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Greg Aikens > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the >> code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with >> literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended >> by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have >> not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so >> I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction >> here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools >> can be improved and better used in general though. >> >> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of >> unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which >> integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a >> challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new >> code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than >> mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. >> >> -Greg >> >> >> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> >> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >> Nemeth Code will stay around! >> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> >> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the >> main >> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college >> Algebra. >> >> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >> To: NABS-L >> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in >> general. What >> about the future of Nemeth? >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >> ydude%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >> 62%40students.pccua.edu >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >> 40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >> 40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com > From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sat May 21 20:27:36 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 16:27:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Random Question In-Reply-To: <4dd7f0ae.05a2e60a.3528.63c3@mx.google.com> References: <4dd7f0ae.05a2e60a.3528.63c3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: What in the world does that word mean anyway? On May 21, 2011, at 1:03 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: > Ah yeah that's tonight, isn't it... Nicole, What about "preekness?" > > Josh > > sent from my Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "NABS-L" Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 09:02:36 -0700 > Subject: [nabs-l] Random Question > > Has anyone found a misspelling to make Jaws correctly pronounce Preakness? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sat May 21 20:29:31 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 16:29:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: References: <4dd6cccc.d8a3e60a.73f8.51eb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1ECFEE14-AA78-49DB-AB95-C24D01AB82DC@gmail.com> Well, could we perhaps fuze the standards for Nemith and computer braille? Make it just one code? On May 21, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, such a goal is a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers are used that the code becomes unwieldy. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: > >> Hi Chris, >> I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. In braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and letters depending on context. The unified system would theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to determine what a text says, making it more like print. >> >> The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is rather clunky and unwieldy. >> >> I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code would be better than the current systems used. But having one code does seem like it might simplify things. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> Greg >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are different symbols for different operations in math than they are in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>> >>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Greg Aikens >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>> >>> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools can be improved and better used in general though. >>> >>> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> >>> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>> >>> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >>> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >>> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >>> Nemeth Code will stay around! >>> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >>> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>> To: NABS-L >>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>> >>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What >>> about the future of Nemeth? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>> anix.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>> ydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >>> 62%40students.pccua.edu >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sat May 21 20:32:54 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 16:32:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction In-Reply-To: <4dd8027f.05a2e60a.3528.64fa@mx.google.com> References: <4dd8027f.05a2e60a.3528.64fa@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Chris: What I do is ask my friends to read their papers too me, and I can correct any grammar/phrasing issues that way. I usually either have a copy of my paper printed, or if the teacher is aware that we're peer editing, she'll usually have a print copy ready for me when I get to class to share with the other students. Jorge On May 21, 2011, at 2:20 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Ashley, > > You bring up an interesting issue. My middle school, too does peer editing of papers, where we hook up with a partner and read and make revisions to each other's handwritten rough drafts before we type them for our final copy. But if you're mainstreamed in a class with sighted people, how do you handle those situations? I have to resort to a reader because my instructional assistant wouldn't have time to scan and Braille it. But are there ways that you all handle these peer editing times independently? Do you request your partner's paper ahead of time and scan it into Kurzweil or OpenBook? Will those OCR softwares scan handwritten materials? In college, are even rough drafts typed into a computer, so you ask your partner to email their draft to you? I would be interested to hear all of your strategies! By the way, I hope to see many of you on the call tomorrow! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 00:16:41 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction > > Josh, > You have a lot to consider with being a student coupled with the wheelchair. > I went to the traditional classroom all through college. I went to a big > state run school and then transferred to a smaller private school, Marymount > university. > No, online college is not more accessible. Things like the discussion board > on Blackboard are problematic, so are the quizzes. > I tried an online class this semester and was very disappointed. Its partly > my learning style. I didn't know what was important to extract from the text > without a class lecture. I wasn't sure what to study for the test. > Assignments seemed a bit ambiguous with the instructions. I just was never > sure what the professor expected. > > What do you want from college? If you want the social aspect, the > independence and living away from home, the increased freedom, the ability > to just go where you want on campus such as a friend's room late at night to > hang out, then stay on campus. Oh, another thing on campus its easier to > see your professors, if you need extra help during office hours; where as if > you are a commuter or online, you can't get to campus as easily. > ] > But if you just want the academics, then online might work. Also what is > your study habits? Online classes you are more on your own. You are not in > class with a schedule to turn in things and you won't have classmates to > study/compare work with; what I mean is with papers, you often get to read > each other's work and get suggestions. > > Personally, I see challenges either way. On campus classes will present > accessibility challenges since you cannot see the board or screen; so you > will want the powerpoints or screen lecture notes sent to you. > But online challenges abound because of graphics, flash content, and > blackboard if your school uses it. > > > Regarding access to school due to your wheelchair, I'd check that a lot, > even more than the blindness accomodations. The blindness is something minor > to accommodate, where as physical disabilities require modifications to the > built environment. > > Ensure you can access all classrooms with your wheel chair. Does the school > have enough ramp access? Does the school have enough space for your chair > to wheel into class? > The law, ADA, requires renovated buildings to be wheel chair accessible. > Unfortunately, some schools including the community college, I'm at now, are > not in ADA compliance because either they did not think of it or buildings > were built prior to 1990 and were not yet renovated. > > So the law requires access, but if your school was not built with ADA > accessibility in mind such as wide door ways, ramps, accessible restrooms, > push buttons, etc. you will have a hard time living and moving around > campus. So check into that. You could even bring someone sighted and help > you look around. That person can check for ramps, push buttons, elevators to > each floor, accessible restrooms, and even check the door way width for you. > For ADA compliant wheel chair access door widths need to be 32 inches. But > again, if built before 1990 without renovations, buildings are not covered > by ADA. > > HTH, > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Josh Gregory > Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 8:25 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction > > Hi all, > I'm a little curious here, what do people think on this? For us > blind students who are about to graduate from high school soon > (I'm a junior this year and will be a senior next) college is > something some of us look into. So, my question: Do people think > that online college is more accessible for blind people, or > classroom instruction? If I may ask, what have people's > experiences been with both? What about a person who is blind and > partially in a wheelchair such as myself, could I manage in an > on-campus environment or would online instruction be better for > me? > Thanks so much, > Josh > > Sent from my Apex > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma > hb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sat May 21 20:34:48 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 16:34:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <4dd80446.8d8de50a.35dc.ffff9d7f@mx.google.com> References: <4dd80446.8d8de50a.35dc.ffff9d7f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: But, we kinda have a unified code don't we? I mean we're using the same combinations, but mean different things depending upon context. On May 21, 2011, at 2:28 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > But my point is if print readers use different symbols for letters than numbers and math symbols, > why do we need the same symbols for numbers and letters in Braille? So then... would you also recommend a unified code for print? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Greg Aikens To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 00:25:40 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Hi Chris, > I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. In braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and letters depending on context. The unified system would theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to determine what a text says, making it more like print. > > The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is rather clunky and unwieldy. > > I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code would be better than the current systems used. But having one code does seem like it might simplify things. > > Just my thoughts, > Greg > > On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are different symbols for different operations in math than they are in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Greg Aikens To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools can be improved and better used in general though. > > As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. > > -Greg > > > On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. > I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being > changed, or it becoming obsilete. > Nemeth Code will stay around! > I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! > Blessings, Joshua > > > On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main > reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. > > On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM > To: NABS-L > Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What > about the future of Nemeth? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 > 62%40students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat May 21 20:35:36 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 14:35:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: References: <4dd80446.8d8de50a.35dc.ffff9d7f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I didn't mean to say it was ilogical-it makes sense to me. I just meant sometimes it seems like it's stretching the possible combinations of braille dots for all they're worth. I guess a better way to say what I'm thinking is that it would be hard to add anything to braille music because it seems like it already uses almost all braille variations possible-even so, I think it's put together brilliantly and is pretty intuitive. Am I making sense? On 5/21/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > I was going to say the exact same thing, but you beat me to it. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirt Manwaring" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 11:47 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > >> Chris, >> I'm not recommending a unified code. All I'm saying is that, >> because braille is limited to a relatively small number of dot >> combinations, and in print you can pretty much draw whatever the hell >> you want, we're better off with the separate codes as they stand, with >> modifications to each code as the need arises. In other words-there >> aren't enough possible things you can do with braille to make a >> unified code, with separate symbols for letters and numbers and music >> and computer characters practical. Braille is equal to print. >> Braille is not print. >> Warmly, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/21/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>> But my point is if print readers use different symbols for >>> letters than numbers and math symbols, >>> why do we need the same symbols for numbers and letters in >>> Braille? So then... would you also recommend a unified code for >>> print? >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>> >>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Greg Aikens >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 00:25:40 -0500 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>> >>> Hi Chris, >>> I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In >>> print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. In >>> braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and >>> letters depending on context. The unified system would >>> theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to determine >>> what a text says, making it more like print. >>> >>> The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to >>> learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, >>> and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is >>> rather clunky and unwieldy. >>> >>> I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code >>> would be better than the current systems used. But having one >>> code does seem like it might simplify things. >>> >>> Just my thoughts, >>> Greg >>> >>> On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, 혇is Nusbaum wrote: >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, >>> don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for >>> literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are >>> different symbols for different operations in math than they are >>> in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is >>> affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities >>> motto) >>> >>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Greg Aikens >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>> >>> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the >>> code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with >>> literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended >>> by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have >>> not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so >>> I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction >>> here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools >>> can be improved and better used in general though. >>> >>> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of >>> unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which >>> integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a >>> challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new >>> code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than >>> mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> >>> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>> >>> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >>> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >>> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >>> Nemeth Code will stay around! >>> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the >>> main >>> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college >>> Algebra. >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>> To: NABS-L >>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>> >>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in >>> general. What >>> about the future of Nemeth? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>> anix.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>> ydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >>> 62%40students.pccua.edu >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sat May 21 20:37:04 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 16:37:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <8F239A7E-1141-41A3-B5DE-9A2F829206BB@panix.com> References: <4dd6cccc.d8a3e60a.73f8.51eb@mx.google.com> <8F239A7E-1141-41A3-B5DE-9A2F829206BB@panix.com> Message-ID: Disagree Mike, though based on our constraints in terms of having only 6 dots, I think its the best option out there instead of a unified code. On May 21, 2011, at 3:55 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > Disagree re Braille music; it's much more logical than print music. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 21, 2011, at 11:34, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >> Mike, >> I agree 100 percent-as it is, braille is already more unwieldy, in >> my opinion, than print. (I'm not saying it's more inferior) One need >> only to look at braille music versus print music to see that braille >> is a lot more cumbersome than print and takes a lot of creativity to >> put together in to an effective system. Braille music is great-but >> it's a bit more stretched and novel than its print counterpart. No >> need to compound the issue. >> >> On 5/21/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, such a goal is a >>> pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers are used that the code >>> becomes unwieldy. >>> >>> Mike Freeman >>> sent from my iPhone >>> >>> >>> On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Chris, >>>> I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In print, >>>> different symbols are used for math and for letters. In braille, we use >>>> the same symbols to represent both math and letters depending on context. >>>> The unified system would theoretically eliminate much of the need for >>>> context to determine what a text says, making it more like print. >>>> >>>> The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to learn, >>>> instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, and one for >>>> computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is rather clunky and >>>> unwieldy. >>>> >>>> I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code would be >>>> better than the current systems used. But having one code does seem like >>>> it might simplify things. >>>> >>>> Just my thoughts, >>>> Greg >>>> >>>> On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Greg, >>>>> >>>>> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, don't get >>>>> me wrong) is that there are different symbols for literary and math print >>>>> as far as I know. In print, there are different symbols for different >>>>> operations in math than they are in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print >>>>> expert here or is affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this >>>>> for me? >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>>>> >>>>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Greg Aikens >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>>> >>>>> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the code, trying >>>>> to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with literary braille. I would >>>>> be surprised if he would be offended by a discussion of the future of his >>>>> code. Admittedly, I have not followed the threads talking about the >>>>> future of braille, so I probably don't understand the context for >>>>> Joshua's reaction here. I do think its good to think critically about >>>>> how tools can be improved and better used in general though. >>>>> >>>>> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of unified >>>>> braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which integrates math and >>>>> literary braille. This seems like a challenging problem to solve, and >>>>> widespread adoption of a new code will take quite a while, but >>>>> fortunately better minds than mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started >>>>> working on this problem. >>>>> >>>>> -Greg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>> >>>>> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >>>>> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >>>>> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >>>>> Nemeth Code will stay around! >>>>> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >>>>> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >>>>> >>>>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>>>> To: NABS-L >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>>> >>>>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. >>>>> What >>>>> about the future of Nemeth? >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>>>> anix.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>>>> ydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >>>>> 62%40students.pccua.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>>>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From adrimpc80 at gmail.com Sat May 21 20:44:49 2011 From: adrimpc80 at gmail.com (ADRIANA PULIDO) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 15:44:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <8F239A7E-1141-41A3-B5DE-9A2F829206BB@panix.com> References: <4dd6cccc.d8a3e60a.73f8.51eb@mx.google.com> <8F239A7E-1141-41A3-B5DE-9A2F829206BB@panix.com> Message-ID: Hi everyone. I just started to use Nemeth code last year, since ETS sent me some books to study for the GRE. It's extremely different from the Spanish code. I've found it a little difficult, especially in relation to math’s’ signs. For instance, the number sign is used only to enumerate the questions, whereas in the exercises, numbers are written on lower cells. Fortunately I’m not going to study maths, but journalism. Nevertheless, I hope the code doesn’t have very big changes; otherwise I’d go crazy! Best, -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright para Maestría. 2011/5/21, Mike Freeman : > Disagree re Braille music; it's much more logical than print music. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 21, 2011, at 11:34, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >> Mike, >> I agree 100 percent-as it is, braille is already more unwieldy, in >> my opinion, than print. (I'm not saying it's more inferior) One need >> only to look at braille music versus print music to see that braille >> is a lot more cumbersome than print and takes a lot of creativity to >> put together in to an effective system. Braille music is great-but >> it's a bit more stretched and novel than its print counterpart. No >> need to compound the issue. >> >> On 5/21/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, such a goal >>> is a >>> pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers are used that the code >>> becomes unwieldy. >>> >>> Mike Freeman >>> sent from my iPhone >>> >>> >>> On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Chris, >>>> I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In print, >>>> different symbols are used for math and for letters. In braille, we use >>>> the same symbols to represent both math and letters depending on >>>> context. >>>> The unified system would theoretically eliminate much of the need for >>>> context to determine what a text says, making it more like print. >>>> >>>> The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to learn, >>>> instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, and one for >>>> computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is rather clunky and >>>> unwieldy. >>>> >>>> I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code would >>>> be >>>> better than the current systems used. But having one code does seem >>>> like >>>> it might simplify things. >>>> >>>> Just my thoughts, >>>> Greg >>>> >>>> On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Greg, >>>>> >>>>> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, don't get >>>>> me wrong) is that there are different symbols for literary and math >>>>> print >>>>> as far as I know. In print, there are different symbols for different >>>>> operations in math than they are in Nemeth. If anyone is a >>>>> Braille/print >>>>> expert here or is affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify >>>>> this >>>>> for me? >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>>>> >>>>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Greg Aikens >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>>> >>>>> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the code, >>>>> trying >>>>> to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with literary braille. I >>>>> would >>>>> be surprised if he would be offended by a discussion of the future of >>>>> his >>>>> code. Admittedly, I have not followed the threads talking about the >>>>> future of braille, so I probably don't understand the context for >>>>> Joshua's reaction here. I do think its good to think critically about >>>>> how tools can be improved and better used in general though. >>>>> >>>>> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of unified >>>>> braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which integrates math and >>>>> literary braille. This seems like a challenging problem to solve, and >>>>> widespread adoption of a new code will take quite a while, but >>>>> fortunately better minds than mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started >>>>> working on this problem. >>>>> >>>>> -Greg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>> >>>>> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >>>>> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >>>>> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >>>>> Nemeth Code will stay around! >>>>> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >>>>> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >>>>> >>>>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>>>> To: NABS-L >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>>> >>>>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. >>>>> What >>>>> about the future of Nemeth? >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>>>> anix.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>>>> ydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >>>>> 62%40students.pccua.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>>>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrimpc80%40gmail.com > From ignasicambra at gmail.com Sat May 21 20:53:46 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 16:53:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction In-Reply-To: <4dd8027f.05a2e60a.3528.64fa@mx.google.com> References: <4dd8027f.05a2e60a.3528.64fa@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <877EC1C4-767B-4FED-8F74-2E75BA8202A2@gmail.com> In college people generally type everything, including rough drafts. They still take handwritten notes, but papers are generally done on the computer from the beginning. If you know who your partner is going to be, just ask him to type that particular draft instead of writing it. I'm sure your teacher will understand why you are doing that, and I'm also pretty sure that your partner will not mind. On May 21, 2011, at 2:20 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Ashley, > > You bring up an interesting issue. My middle school, too does peer editing of papers, where we hook up with a partner and read and make revisions to each other's handwritten rough drafts before we type them for our final copy. But if you're mainstreamed in a class with sighted people, how do you handle those situations? I have to resort to a reader because my instructional assistant wouldn't have time to scan and Braille it. But are there ways that you all handle these peer editing times independently? Do you request your partner's paper ahead of time and scan it into Kurzweil or OpenBook? Will those OCR softwares scan handwritten materials? In college, are even rough drafts typed into a computer, so you ask your partner to email their draft to you? I would be interested to hear all of your strategies! By the way, I hope to see many of you on the call tomorrow! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 00:16:41 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction > > Josh, > You have a lot to consider with being a student coupled with the wheelchair. > I went to the traditional classroom all through college. I went to a big > state run school and then transferred to a smaller private school, Marymount > university. > No, online college is not more accessible. Things like the discussion board > on Blackboard are problematic, so are the quizzes. > I tried an online class this semester and was very disappointed. Its partly > my learning style. I didn't know what was important to extract from the text > without a class lecture. I wasn't sure what to study for the test. > Assignments seemed a bit ambiguous with the instructions. I just was never > sure what the professor expected. > > What do you want from college? If you want the social aspect, the > independence and living away from home, the increased freedom, the ability > to just go where you want on campus such as a friend's room late at night to > hang out, then stay on campus. Oh, another thing on campus its easier to > see your professors, if you need extra help during office hours; where as if > you are a commuter or online, you can't get to campus as easily. > ] > But if you just want the academics, then online might work. Also what is > your study habits? Online classes you are more on your own. You are not in > class with a schedule to turn in things and you won't have classmates to > study/compare work with; what I mean is with papers, you often get to read > each other's work and get suggestions. > > Personally, I see challenges either way. On campus classes will present > accessibility challenges since you cannot see the board or screen; so you > will want the powerpoints or screen lecture notes sent to you. > But online challenges abound because of graphics, flash content, and > blackboard if your school uses it. > > > Regarding access to school due to your wheelchair, I'd check that a lot, > even more than the blindness accomodations. The blindness is something minor > to accommodate, where as physical disabilities require modifications to the > built environment. > > Ensure you can access all classrooms with your wheel chair. Does the school > have enough ramp access? Does the school have enough space for your chair > to wheel into class? > The law, ADA, requires renovated buildings to be wheel chair accessible. > Unfortunately, some schools including the community college, I'm at now, are > not in ADA compliance because either they did not think of it or buildings > were built prior to 1990 and were not yet renovated. > > So the law requires access, but if your school was not built with ADA > accessibility in mind such as wide door ways, ramps, accessible restrooms, > push buttons, etc. you will have a hard time living and moving around > campus. So check into that. You could even bring someone sighted and help > you look around. That person can check for ramps, push buttons, elevators to > each floor, accessible restrooms, and even check the door way width for you. > For ADA compliant wheel chair access door widths need to be 32 inches. But > again, if built before 1990 without renovations, buildings are not covered > by ADA. > > HTH, > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Josh Gregory > Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 8:25 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction > > Hi all, > I'm a little curious here, what do people think on this? For us > blind students who are about to graduate from high school soon > (I'm a junior this year and will be a senior next) college is > something some of us look into. So, my question: Do people think > that online college is more accessible for blind people, or > classroom instruction? If I may ask, what have people's > experiences been with both? What about a person who is blind and > partially in a wheelchair such as myself, could I manage in an > on-campus environment or would online instruction be better for > me? > Thanks so much, > Josh > > Sent from my Apex > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma > hb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Sat May 21 20:58:26 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 13:58:26 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? References: <4dd6cccc.d8a3e60a.73f8.51eb@mx.google.com> <1ECFEE14-AA78-49DB-AB95-C24D01AB82DC@gmail.com> Message-ID: *NO.* Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer Braille and Nemeth is the very reason that I started this thread. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Well, could we perhaps fuze the standards for Nemith and computer braille? Make it just one code? On May 21, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, such a goal is > a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers are used that the > code becomes unwieldy. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: > >> Hi Chris, >> I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In print, >> different symbols are used for math and for letters. In braille, we use >> the same symbols to represent both math and letters depending on context. >> The unified system would theoretically eliminate much of the need for >> context to determine what a text says, making it more like print. >> >> The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to learn, >> instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, and one for >> computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is rather clunky and >> unwieldy. >> >> I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code would >> be better than the current systems used. But having one code does seem >> like it might simplify things. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> Greg >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, don't get >>> me wrong) is that there are different symbols for literary and math >>> print as far as I know. In print, there are different symbols for >>> different operations in math than they are in Nemeth. If anyone is a >>> Braille/print expert here or is affiliated with BANA, could you confirm >>> or clarify this for me? >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>> >>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Greg Aikens >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>> >>> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the code, >>> trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with literary braille. >>> I would be surprised if he would be offended by a discussion of the >>> future of his code. Admittedly, I have not followed the threads talking >>> about the future of braille, so I probably don't understand the context >>> for Joshua's reaction here. I do think its good to think critically >>> about how tools can be improved and better used in general though. >>> >>> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of unified >>> braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which integrates math and >>> literary braille. This seems like a challenging problem to solve, and >>> widespread adoption of a new code will take quite a while, but >>> fortunately better minds than mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started >>> working on this problem. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> >>> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>> >>> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >>> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >>> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >>> Nemeth Code will stay around! >>> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >>> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>> To: NABS-L >>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>> >>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. >>> What >>> about the future of Nemeth? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>> anix.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>> ydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >>> 62%40students.pccua.edu >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat May 21 21:00:16 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 15:00:16 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Random Question In-Reply-To: References: <4dd7f0ae.05a2e60a.3528.63c3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Jorge, It's a horse race-part of the tripple crown...happens in Maryland, that's all I know...oh and it's on tonight On 5/21/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > What in the world does that word mean anyway? > > > On May 21, 2011, at 1:03 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: > >> Ah yeah that's tonight, isn't it... Nicole, What about "preekness?" >> >> Josh >> >> sent from my Apex >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" > To: "NABS-L" > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 09:02:36 -0700 >> Subject: [nabs-l] Random Question >> >> Has anyone found a misspelling to make Jaws correctly pronounce Preakness? >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >> 2%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat May 21 20:46:41 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 14:46:41 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: References: <4dd80446.8d8de50a.35dc.ffff9d7f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Jorge, I just don't really see the point. What we have now works great-if we try and put it all in to one single code, I'm afraid it'll just break a pretty good system. On 5/21/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > But, > we kinda have a unified code don't we? > I mean we're using the same combinations, but mean different things > depending upon context. > > > On May 21, 2011, at 2:28 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > >> But my point is if print readers use different symbols for letters than >> numbers and math symbols, >> why do we need the same symbols for numbers and letters in Braille? So >> then... would you also recommend a unified code for print? >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Greg Aikens > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 00:25:40 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Hi Chris, >> I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In print, >> different symbols are used for math and for letters. In braille, we use >> the same symbols to represent both math and letters depending on context. >> The unified system would theoretically eliminate much of the need for >> context to determine what a text says, making it more like print. >> >> The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to learn, >> instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, and one for >> computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is rather clunky and >> unwieldy. >> >> I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code would be >> better than the current systems used. But having one code does seem like >> it might simplify things. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> Greg >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, don't get me >> wrong) is that there are different symbols for literary and math print as >> far as I know. In print, there are different symbols for different >> operations in math than they are in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print >> expert here or is affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this >> for me? >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Greg Aikens > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the code, trying >> to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with literary braille. I would >> be surprised if he would be offended by a discussion of the future of his >> code. Admittedly, I have not followed the threads talking about the >> future of braille, so I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's >> reaction here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools >> can be improved and better used in general though. >> >> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of unified >> braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which integrates math and >> literary braille. This seems like a challenging problem to solve, and >> widespread adoption of a new code will take quite a while, but fortunately >> better minds than mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this >> problem. >> >> -Greg >> >> >> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> >> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >> Nemeth Code will stay around! >> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> >> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >> >> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >> To: NABS-L >> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. >> What >> about the future of Nemeth? >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >> ydude%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >> 62%40students.pccua.edu >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >> 40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >> 40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat May 21 21:20:38 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 17:20:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Random Question Message-ID: <4dd82cba.85af340a.795e.464a@mx.google.com> Huh? Don't know what the Preakness is? Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez Message-ID: <1ac601cc17fe$e5529b70$6a01a8c0@server> Hi Nicole, The closest I can come is PreekNis Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "NABS-L" Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 9:02 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Random Question > Has anyone found a misspelling to make Jaws correctly pronounce Preakness? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat May 21 22:15:13 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 18:15:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction Message-ID: <4dd83985.5069e50a.2c03.ffffa04b@mx.google.com> Oh, great idea! I'll try that! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez References: <4dd8027f.05a2e60a.3528.64fa@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Chris, If you don't know who your partner is until you swap papers, just have them read you the dang thing. If, however, it's pre-arranged (as it is a lot of the time) you can often ask them to send you a copy in word, rtf, etc. This also works for those situations where you're supposed to peer review something for homework. Josh, Ashley does bring up some good points. But don't you dare let that discourage you from doing what you want to do. Online classes can be very accessible, I'm in one right now and it's amazing. You'd know more about wheelchair access than me, but I've made some good friends who use wheelchairs on my campus (BYU) and they do great. I think sometimes we have the tendancy, and I'm not saying Ashley was remiss because she brought up some great points, but I think sometimes we have the tendancy to look at something, say there are accessibility challenges, and then ignore that thing because it won't be easy. Either way you'll have accessibility issues-life, quite frankly, will often be inaccessible. That doesn't mean you don't go the extra mile and do what you need to do. I'm not mocking your questions. But be ready for a difficult road through college, no matter if you do most classes online or spend the bulk of your time in traditional classes. Buckle up, it's not going to be easy. My recommendation, not knowing a thing about personal factors you aren't telling us, is that you take most of your classes on campus. It'll give you an experience of being away from home, if you're anything like me it'll make you get better travel skills, and it's the route most people take. But that doesn't mean online classes are bad, or that they aren't a good option-I'm probably going to take more because of the great experience I'm having with it now. Best of luck, Kirt On 5/21/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > Chris: > What I do is ask my friends to read their papers too me, and I can correct > any grammar/phrasing issues that way. > I usually either have a copy of my paper printed, > or if the teacher is aware that we're peer editing, > she'll usually have a print copy ready for me when I get to class to share > with the other students. > > Jorge > > > On May 21, 2011, at 2:20 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > >> Ashley, >> >> You bring up an interesting issue. My middle school, too does peer >> editing of papers, where we hook up with a partner and read and make >> revisions to each other's handwritten rough drafts before we type them for >> our final copy. But if you're mainstreamed in a class with sighted >> people, how do you handle those situations? I have to resort to a reader >> because my instructional assistant wouldn't have time to scan and Braille >> it. But are there ways that you all handle these peer editing times >> independently? Do you request your partner's paper ahead of time and scan >> it into Kurzweil or OpenBook? Will those OCR softwares scan handwritten >> materials? In college, are even rough drafts typed into a computer, so you >> ask your partner to email their draft to you? I would be interested to >> hear all of your strategies! By the way, I hope to see many of you on the >> call tomorrow! >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 00:16:41 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction >> >> Josh, >> You have a lot to consider with being a student coupled with the >> wheelchair. >> I went to the traditional classroom all through college. I went to a big >> state run school and then transferred to a smaller private school, >> Marymount >> university. >> No, online college is not more accessible. Things like the discussion >> board >> on Blackboard are problematic, so are the quizzes. >> I tried an online class this semester and was very disappointed. Its >> partly >> my learning style. I didn't know what was important to extract from the >> text >> without a class lecture. I wasn't sure what to study for the test. >> Assignments seemed a bit ambiguous with the instructions. I just was >> never >> sure what the professor expected. >> >> What do you want from college? If you want the social aspect, the >> independence and living away from home, the increased freedom, the ability >> to just go where you want on campus such as a friend's room late at night >> to >> hang out, then stay on campus. Oh, another thing on campus its easier to >> see your professors, if you need extra help during office hours; where as >> if >> you are a commuter or online, you can't get to campus as easily. >> ] >> But if you just want the academics, then online might work. Also what is >> your study habits? Online classes you are more on your own. You are not >> in >> class with a schedule to turn in things and you won't have classmates to >> study/compare work with; what I mean is with papers, you often get to >> read >> each other's work and get suggestions. >> >> Personally, I see challenges either way. On campus classes will present >> accessibility challenges since you cannot see the board or screen; so you >> will want the powerpoints or screen lecture notes sent to you. >> But online challenges abound because of graphics, flash content, and >> blackboard if your school uses it. >> >> >> Regarding access to school due to your wheelchair, I'd check that a lot, >> even more than the blindness accomodations. The blindness is something >> minor >> to accommodate, where as physical disabilities require modifications to >> the >> built environment. >> >> Ensure you can access all classrooms with your wheel chair. Does the >> school >> have enough ramp access? Does the school have enough space for your chair >> to wheel into class? >> The law, ADA, requires renovated buildings to be wheel chair accessible. >> Unfortunately, some schools including the community college, I'm at now, >> are >> not in ADA compliance because either they did not think of it or buildings >> were built prior to 1990 and were not yet renovated. >> >> So the law requires access, but if your school was not built with ADA >> accessibility in mind such as wide door ways, ramps, accessible restrooms, >> push buttons, etc. you will have a hard time living and moving around >> campus. So check into that. You could even bring someone sighted and >> help >> you look around. That person can check for ramps, push buttons, elevators >> to >> each floor, accessible restrooms, and even check the door way width for >> you. >> For ADA compliant wheel chair access door widths need to be 32 inches. >> But >> again, if built before 1990 without renovations, buildings are not covered >> by ADA. >> >> HTH, >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Josh Gregory >> Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 8:25 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction >> >> Hi all, >> I'm a little curious here, what do people think on this? For us >> blind students who are about to graduate from high school soon >> (I'm a junior this year and will be a senior next) college is >> something some of us look into. So, my question: Do people think >> that online college is more accessible for blind people, or >> classroom instruction? If I may ask, what have people's >> experiences been with both? What about a person who is blind and >> partially in a wheelchair such as myself, could I manage in an >> on-campus environment or would online instruction be better for >> me? >> Thanks so much, >> Josh >> >> Sent from my Apex >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma >> hb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sat May 21 22:22:46 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 18:22:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: References: <4dd80446.8d8de50a.35dc.ffff9d7f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I understand--trust me I'm happy with what we have. Just trying to suggest alternatives to a "unified code" On May 21, 2011, at 4:46 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Jorge, > I just don't really see the point. What we have now works great-if > we try and put it all in to one single code, I'm afraid it'll just > break a pretty good system. > > On 5/21/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> But, >> we kinda have a unified code don't we? >> I mean we're using the same combinations, but mean different things >> depending upon context. >> >> >> On May 21, 2011, at 2:28 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> >>> But my point is if print readers use different symbols for letters than >>> numbers and math symbols, >>> why do we need the same symbols for numbers and letters in Braille? So >>> then... would you also recommend a unified code for print? >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>> >>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Greg Aikens >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 00:25:40 -0500 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>> >>> Hi Chris, >>> I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In print, >>> different symbols are used for math and for letters. In braille, we use >>> the same symbols to represent both math and letters depending on context. >>> The unified system would theoretically eliminate much of the need for >>> context to determine what a text says, making it more like print. >>> >>> The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to learn, >>> instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, and one for >>> computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is rather clunky and >>> unwieldy. >>> >>> I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code would be >>> better than the current systems used. But having one code does seem like >>> it might simplify things. >>> >>> Just my thoughts, >>> Greg >>> >>> On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, don't get me >>> wrong) is that there are different symbols for literary and math print as >>> far as I know. In print, there are different symbols for different >>> operations in math than they are in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print >>> expert here or is affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this >>> for me? >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>> >>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Greg Aikens >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>> >>> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the code, trying >>> to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with literary braille. I would >>> be surprised if he would be offended by a discussion of the future of his >>> code. Admittedly, I have not followed the threads talking about the >>> future of braille, so I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's >>> reaction here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools >>> can be improved and better used in general though. >>> >>> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of unified >>> braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which integrates math and >>> literary braille. This seems like a challenging problem to solve, and >>> widespread adoption of a new code will take quite a while, but fortunately >>> better minds than mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this >>> problem. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> >>> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>> >>> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >>> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >>> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >>> Nemeth Code will stay around! >>> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >>> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>> To: NABS-L >>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>> >>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. >>> What >>> about the future of Nemeth? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>> anix.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>> ydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >>> 62%40students.pccua.edu >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Sat May 21 22:29:21 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 15:29:21 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Random Question References: <4dd82cba.85af340a.795e.464a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <758E5566251D4A119A8FC861A63EB057@stanford.edu> Okay, not everyone follows horse racing. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Random Question > Huh? Don't know what the Preakness is? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 16:27:36 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Random Question > > What in the world does that word mean anyway? > > > On May 21, 2011, at 1:03 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: > > Ah yeah that's tonight, isn't it... Nicole, What about "preekness?" > > Josh > > sent from my Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "NABS-L" Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 09:02:36 -0700 > Subject: [nabs-l] Random Question > > Has anyone found a misspelling to make Jaws correctly pronounce Preakness? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat May 21 22:34:34 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 18:34:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction Message-ID: <4dd83e0e.8a4ee50a.7631.ffffa711@mx.google.com> I think that's an even better idea! Thanks! I think Jorge had a good idea, but sometimes you don't have time in a class period to read the whole paper aloud and make revisions to it. I think I'll try that next time. Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Ignasi Cambra Yep! It's held at Pimlico Racecourse in Baltimore. Jorge, you can write me offlist if you have any questions about it, since I live in Maryland, near where the race takes place. As you can imagine, it's a pretty exciting time here! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: What in the world does that word mean anyway? On May 21, 2011, at 1:03 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: Ah yeah that's tonight, isn't it... Nicole, What about "preekness?" Josh sent from my Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" Kirt, good points. How are you finding the online classes? Do you use a screen reader, BrailleNote, things like that for them? Josh sent from my Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: Chris: What I do is ask my friends to read their papers too me, and I can correct any grammar/phrasing issues that way. I usually either have a copy of my paper printed, or if the teacher is aware that we're peer editing, she'll usually have a print copy ready for me when I get to class to share with the other students. Jorge On May 21, 2011, at 2:20 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: Ashley, You bring up an interesting issue. My middle school, too does peer editing of papers, where we hook up with a partner and read and make revisions to each other's handwritten rough drafts before we type them for our final copy. But if you're mainstreamed in a class with sighted people, how do you handle those situations? I have to resort to a reader because my instructional assistant wouldn't have time to scan and Braille it. But are there ways that you all handle these peer editing times independently? Do you request your partner's paper ahead of time and scan it into Kurzweil or OpenBook? Will those OCR softwares scan handwritten materials? In college, are even rough drafts typed into a computer, so you ask your partner to email their draft to you? I would be interested to hear all of your strategies! By the way, I hope to see many of you on the call tomorrow! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: This thread has really expanded, this is great! Josh sent from my Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Nusbaum Last year? I know Dr. Schroeder (Fred Schroeder) spoke about Braille and Nemeth. But I don't remember Dr. Nemeth himself at the Braille Challenge. Maybe you're thinking about the Louis Braille coin launch ceremony in 2009? Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Josh Gregory wrote: I know. I'd just like to know how he's doing. Blessings, Joshua On 5/21/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: Joshua, From what I know of the man, he'd be the first to accept changes made to the code if they were constructive. Best, Kirt On 5/21/11, Joshua Lester wrote: I am not saying that Nemeth should be replaced, but I do feel that people need to realize that the Nemeth Code itself replaced what was called the Taylor Code in the 1950's and it was a pretty complete change. From what I know about the Taylor code, it was not as complete as is Nemeth, so it seemed to be a good move. The point is that we had to go through a significant change and we made it. Any change should not be made lightly, though, and we need to learn as much as we can about any change before supporting or opposing it. We also need to understand what is happening in print as well. I am not a person who believes braille has to reflect print exactly, but there are things that happen in print that play a role in education, particularly, that didn't happen fifty years ago. I have also traditionally opposed changing braille just to make it easier to translate using a computer, but I think that this now plays a larger role with refreshable braille displays and access to untranslated electronic texts. This all goes beyond Nemeth Code itself, though. There are things that might be done that are less aggressive than a unified code like UEB or NUBS, I don't claim to be an expert there. I simply don't think we should oppose something because it is change, nor should we embrace something simply because it is new. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Sat, 21 May 2011 01:39:43 -0400, Josh Gregory wrote: People have talked about losing Nemeth as far as I understand it. That, (JMHO) will not happen. We as blind people have become so used to it, that, if another code were to be introduced, as others have rightfully said, it'd take a while for it to be adopted, as well as for us to learn it. So I don't think Nemeth will vanish and I like it more than UEB because it has more of what I'm used to, contractions. While I * could * learn and use it, for me, Nemeth is the way to go. Josh sent from my Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Aikens wrote: I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What about the future of Nemeth? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 22 00:35:45 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 16:35:45 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Message-ID: <4dd85a61.52a3e60a.620f.6802@mx.google.com> Man you always remember, thanks Chris! :) Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Nusbaum wrote: I know. I'd just like to know how he's doing. Blessings, Joshua On 5/21/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: Joshua, From what I know of the man, he'd be the first to accept changes made to the code if they were constructive. Best, Kirt On 5/21/11, Joshua Lester wrote: I am not saying that Nemeth should be replaced, but I do feel that people need to realize that the Nemeth Code itself replaced what was called the Taylor Code in the 1950's and it was a pretty complete change. From what I know about the Taylor code, it was not as complete as is Nemeth, so it seemed to be a good move. The point is that we had to go through a significant change and we made it. Any change should not be made lightly, though, and we need to learn as much as we can about any change before supporting or opposing it. We also need to understand what is happening in print as well. I am not a person who believes braille has to reflect print exactly, but there are things that happen in print that play a role in education, particularly, that didn't happen fifty years ago. I have also traditionally opposed changing braille just to make it easier to translate using a computer, but I think that this now plays a larger role with refreshable braille displays and access to untranslated electronic texts. This all goes beyond Nemeth Code itself, though. There are things that might be done that are less aggressive than a unified code like UEB or NUBS, I don't claim to be an expert there. I simply don't think we should oppose something because it is change, nor should we embrace something simply because it is new. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Sat, 21 May 2011 01:39:43 -0400, Josh Gregory wrote: People have talked about losing Nemeth as far as I understand it. That, (JMHO) will not happen. We as blind people have become so used to it, that, if another code were to be introduced, as others have rightfully said, it'd take a while for it to be adopted, as well as for us to learn it. So I don't think Nemeth will vanish and I like it more than UEB because it has more of what I'm used to, contractions. While I * could * learn and use it, for me, Nemeth is the way to go. Josh sent from my Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Aikens wrote: I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What about the future of Nemeth? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sun May 22 00:39:53 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 20:39:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: <4dd7d1d3.82d6e60a.38be.26fa@mx.google.com> References: <4dd7d1d3.82d6e60a.38be.26fa@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <3399ABA8-FF54-4C0E-9258-9528F8D7B8D1@gmail.com> Chris: Just wondering, what training center did you go to? On May 21, 2011, at 10:52 AM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Thanks, Kirt! I appreciate the kind words. To answer your question, I wasn't really introduced to the Federation originally, my parents were. Therefore, I was a member of the Federation with my parents and liked > a lot of what I heard. I went to one of the NFB sponsored training center programs and learned a lot. Then recently I went to the NFB LAW Program at the national center, the first program I'd ever gone to at the Jernigan Institute. That program just strengthened my belief in the Federation philosophy. But I still felt that the views I was hearing were kind of extreme, so I wanted to learn more about the philosophy of the NFB before I totally threw my support behind them. After listening to some stuff on nfb.org, I asked this list and the other list I'm on my "what is Federationism?" question so I knew people's personal feelings about Federationism. Once I read a lot of posts on this subject and learned about the real NFB philosophy, I decided to join the Federation as a total Federationist!!!!! Yea!!!!! So really, my decision to join the Federation myself was mostly because of your insight! Thanks guys!!! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 14:21:25 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB > > Chris, > It's awesome you're on here. You're a case study of why it's good > for students to get on board while they're young. Just out of > curiosity, how were you introduced to the Federation? > > On 5/20/11, Âris Nusbaum wrote: > I agree completely, Kirt! Great points! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:57:10 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB > > Darian and all, > I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission > teachers. > (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, > itinerate > teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind > students, and their parents, first impressions about blindness > and > thus they have a huge influence on whatever expectations a > student or > parent develops about what is possible as a blind person. I > think we > need to put a lot more energy in to sincerely dialoguing with > these > teachers, especially the reasonable ones who don't agree with us > (I'm > not saying all teachers who disagree with us are reasonable), to > improve our image and the way we're presented to students. > Because my > state affiliate is pretty good at this, my TVI, although she > disagreed > with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't discourage me from coming > to > my own opinions and getting as much firsthand experience with the > Federation as I could. Even those blindness professionals who > disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a civil and > courteous > manner, direct students to our organization. It happened with > me. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: > You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion > is > the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what > you may > think needs improving?" > I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit > of > mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a > matter > that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, > this > in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are > also > very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the > answers! > Best, > Darian > > On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > I don't think we're doing enough with the > middleschool/elementary > population. > We need to get the message out faster, > to the younger kids. > > > On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: > > Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think > about this > question? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" wrote: > > I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, > and > whether or not we're doing anything to address how to > communicate our > message in a way that will reach people through new > technologies. > Thanks. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb > %40gmail.com > > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > ˜ Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 22 01:12:22 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:12:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally Message-ID: <4dd862f6.a559e60a.368d.67f0@mx.google.com> Hi all, I have a question about learning ally sign up. Is it necessary to put your address where you live in the form, or can you get buy without that info? My school uses this service and I really want to have an individual account so that I may utilize it as well. Thanks! Josh Sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun May 22 01:21:59 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:21:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB Message-ID: <4dd8654a.1192e60a.427d.6706@mx.google.com> I=20went=20to=20BYSM=20in=20Baltimore.=20=20That=20stands=20for=20Blind=20Y= outh=20 Services=20of=20Maryland,=20by=20the=20way. Chris "A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abilit= ies=20motto) ---=20Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote Chris "A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abilit= ies=20motto) ---=20Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNoteI=20went=20to=20 Chris "A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abilit= ies=20motto) ---=20Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNoteI=20went=20to=20BYSM =20Chris "A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abilit= ies=20motto) ---=20Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote -----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Jorge=20Paez=20=20wrote: =20I=20agree=20completely,=20Kirt!=20Great=20points! =20Chris =20"A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abi= lities=20 motto) =20---=20Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20Kirt=20Manwaring=20=20wrote: =20You=20know,=20one=20thing=20that=20I=20would=20like=20to=20add=20to=20th= is=20discussion =20is =20the=20following=20=20"what=20ideas=20would=20you=20=20suggest=20to=20imp= rove=20what =20you=20may =20think=20needs=20improving?" =20=20=20I=20think=20it's=20=20really=20easy=20for=20all=20of=20us=20to=20g= et=20into=20the=20=20habit =20of =20mentioning=20what=20isn't=20happening.=20=20Sometimes,=20it's=20=20not=20= so=20much=20a =20matter =20=20that=20no=20one=20is=20aware=20of=20an=20issue=20(sometimes,=20on=20t= he=20other=20hand, =20this =20in=20fact=20may=20be=20the=20case),=20but=20suggestions=20on=20how=20to= =20improve=20are =20also =20very=20valuable.=20=20=20Remember,=20we=20never=20roll=20out=20of=20bed= =20with=20the =20answers! =20=20=20Best, =20=20=20Darian =20On=205/19/11,=20Jorge=20Paez=20=20wrote= : =20=09I=20don't=20think=20we're=20doing=20enough=20with=20the =20middleschool/elementary =20population. =20We=20need=20to=20get=20the=20message=20out=20faster, =20to=20the=20younger=20kids. =20On=20May=2019,=202011,=20at=209:00=20PM,=20dsmithnfb at gmail.com=20wrote: =20Let's=20bring=20this=20conversation=20fourth.=20=20What=20do=20people=20= think =20about=20this =20question? =20Sent=20from=20my=20iPhone =20On=20May=2019,=202011,=20at=205:39=20PM,=20"Tina=20Hansen"=20 References: <4dd8654a.1192e60a.427d.6706@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <3E06D406-7F53-498B-9498-F1FE68AD3325@gmail.com> Oh interesting. I attended BLIND INC. last year and I have a friend from there who's in Pensolvania who's going to BYSM. On May 21, 2011, at 9:21 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > I went to BYSM in Baltimore. That stands for Blind Youth Services of Maryland, by the way. > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNoteI went to > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNoteI went to BYSM > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 20:39:53 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB > > Chris: > Just wondering, > what training center did you go to? > > > On May 21, 2011, at 10:52 AM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > > Thanks, Kirt! I appreciate the kind words. To answer your question, I wasn't really introduced to the Federation originally, my parents were. Therefore, I was a member of the Federation with my parents and liked > a lot of what I heard. I went to one of the NFB sponsored training center programs and learned a lot. Then recently I went to the NFB LAW Program at the national center, the first program I'd ever gone to at the Jernigan Institute. That program just strengthened my belief in the Federation philosophy. But I still felt that the views I was hearing were kind of extreme, so I wanted to learn more about the philosophy of the NFB before I totally threw my support behind them. After listening to some stuff on nfb.org, I asked this list and the other list I'm on my "what is Federationism?" question so I knew people's personal feelings about Federationism. Once I read a lot of posts on this subject and learned about the real NFB philosophy, I decided to join the Federation as a total Federationist!!!!! Yea!!!!! So really, my decision to join the Federation myself was mostly because of your insight! Thanks guys!!! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 14:21:25 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB > > Chris, > It's awesome you're on here. You're a case study of why it's good > for students to get on board while they're young. Just out of > curiosity, how were you introduced to the Federation? > > On 5/20/11, Âris Nusbaum wrote: > I agree completely, Kirt! Great points! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:57:10 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB > > Darian and all, > I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission > teachers. > (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, > itinerate > teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind > students, and their parents, first impressions about blindness > and > thus they have a huge influence on whatever expectations a > student or > parent develops about what is possible as a blind person. I > think we > need to put a lot more energy in to sincerely dialoguing with > these > teachers, especially the reasonable ones who don't agree with us > (I'm > not saying all teachers who disagree with us are reasonable), to > improve our image and the way we're presented to students. > Because my > state affiliate is pretty good at this, my TVI, although she > disagreed > with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't discourage me from coming > to > my own opinions and getting as much firsthand experience with the > Federation as I could. Even those blindness professionals who > disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a civil and > courteous > manner, direct students to our organization. It happened with > me. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: > You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion > is > the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what > you may > think needs improving?" > I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit > of > mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a > matter > that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, > this > in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are > also > very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the > answers! > Best, > Darian > > On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > I don't think we're doing enough with the > middleschool/elementary > population. > We need to get the message out faster, > to the younger kids. > > > On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: > > Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think > about this > question? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" wrote: > > I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, > and > whether or not we're doing anything to address how to > communicate our > message in a way that will reach people through new > technologies. > Thanks. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb > %40gmail.com > > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > ˘ Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Sun May 22 01:47:40 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:47:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: <4dd8654a.1192e60a.427d.6706@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4dd86b42.8a4ee50a.493a.ffffa36a@mx.google.com> Chris, just to correct you BISM stands for Blind Industries and Services = of Maryland. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 9:22 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB I went to BYSM in Baltimore. That stands for Blind Youth=20 Services of Maryland, by the way. Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNoteI went to=20 Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNoteI went to BYSM Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez wrote: I agree completely, Kirt! Great points! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities=20 motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion is the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what you may think needs improving?" I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit of mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a matter that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, this in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are also very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the answers! Best, Darian On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: I don't think we're doing enough with the middleschool/elementary population. We need to get the message out faster, to the younger kids. On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think about this question? Sent from my iPhone On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" Message-ID: <1070E0631AF4453CB39C6C7683784C7E@stanford.edu> Required fields are marked with a star (*). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh Gregory" To: Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 6:12 PM Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally > Hi all, > I have a question about learning ally sign up. Is it necessary to put > your address where you live in the form, or can you get buy without that > info? My school uses this service and > I really want to have an individual account so that I may utilize it as > well. Thanks! > Josh > > Sent from my Apex > > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From mcikeyc at aol.com Sun May 22 02:00:46 2011 From: mcikeyc at aol.com (Michelle Clark) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:00:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201105220200.p4M20lP8020896@imr-da01.mx.aol.com> Hi Josh, If you decide to look into an on-line school, please make sure the school has the current version of the application they want you to use. If the school uses Blackboard, I believe it needs to be version 12 which is deemed accessible by the NFB. Also, how the disability office and other support at the school treats you can determine if you make it or break. Good Luck in whatever you decide. Michelle From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 22 02:03:40 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:03:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally Message-ID: <4dd86efc.1192e60a.6bfb.6b76@mx.google.com> OK thanks! Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" T2ggeWVhaCEgSSByZWFkIHNvbWVvbmUgb24gaGVyZSBjYWxsIGl0IEJZU00gYW5kIGFzc3VtZWQg aXQgd2FzIAp0aGVpciBZb3V0aCBTZXJ2aWNlcyBkZXBhcnRtZW50LiAgVGhhbmtzLCBSYW5pYSEK CiBDaHJpcwoKIkEgbG9zcyBvZiBzaWdodCwgbmV2ZXIgYSBsb3NzIG9mIHZpc2lvbiEiIChDYW1w IEFiaWxpdGllcyBtb3R0bykKCi0tLSBTZW50IGZyb20gbXkgQnJhaWxsZU5vdGUKCiAtLS0tLSBP cmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tCkZyb206ICJSYW5pYSBJc21haWwiIDxyYW5pYWlzbWFpbDA0 QGdtYWlsLmNvbQpUbzogIidOYXRpb25hbCBBc3NvY2lhdGlvbiBvZiBCbGluZCBTdHVkZW50cyBt YWlsaW5nIGxpc3QnIiAKPG5hYnMtbEBuZmJuZXQub3JnCkRhdGUgc2VudDogU2F0LCAyMSBNYXkg MjAxMSAyMTo0Nzo0MCAtMDQwMApTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW25hYnMtbF0gQWJvdXQgdGhlIGZ1dHVy ZSBvZiBOQUJTIGFuZCB0aGUgTkZCCgpDaHJpcywganVzdCB0byBjb3JyZWN0IHlvdSBCSVNNIHN0 YW5kcyBmb3IgQmxpbmQgSW5kdXN0cmllcyBhbmQgClNlcnZpY2VzIG9mCk1hcnlsYW5kLgoKUmFu aWEsCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tCkZyb206IG5hYnMtbC1ib3VuY2VzQG5mYm5l dC5vcmcgClttYWlsdG86bmFicy1sLWJvdW5jZXNAbmZibmV0Lm9yZ10gT24KQmVoYWxmIE9mIENo 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cy1sQG5mYm5ldC5vcmcKIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubmZibmV0Lm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL25h YnMtbF9uZmJuZXQub3JnCiBUbyB1bnN1YnNjcmliZSwgY2hhbmdlIHlvdXIgbGlzdCBvcHRpb25z IG9yIGdldCB5b3VyIGFjY291bnQKaW5mbyBmb3IgbmFicy1sOgoKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZmJuZXQu b3JnL21haWxtYW4vb3B0aW9ucy9uYWJzLWxfbmZibmV0Lm9yZy9jb21wdXRlcnQKZWNoam9yZ2Vw YWV6JTQwZ21haWwuY29tCgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX18KbmFicy1sIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApuYWJzLWxAbmZibmV0Lm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3 Lm5mYm5ldC5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9uYWJzLWxfbmZibmV0Lm9yZwpUbyB1bnN1YnNj cmliZSwgY2hhbmdlIHlvdXIgbGlzdCBvcHRpb25zIG9yIGdldCB5b3VyIGFjY291bnQgaW5mbwpm b3IgbmFicy1sOgpodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm5mYm5ldC5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9vcHRpb25zL25hYnMtbF9u ZmJuZXQub3JnL2RvdGtpZC5udQpzYmF1bSU0MGdtYWlsLmNvbQoKCgoKCi0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t IG5leHQgcGFydCAtLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQpBIG5vbi10ZXh0IGF0dGFjaG1lbnQgd2FzIHNjcnVi YmVkLi4uCk5hbWU6IGF0dGFjaG1lbnQKVHlwZTogYXBwbGljYXRpb24vb2N0ZXQtc3RyZWFtClNp emU6IDMxMiBieXRlcwpEZXNjOiBub3QgYXZhaWxhYmxlClVSTDogPGh0dHA6Ly9uZmJuZXQub3Jn L3BpcGVybWFpbC9uYWJzLWxfbmZibmV0Lm9yZy9hdHRhY2htZW50cy8yMDExMDUyMS8yMzgxNjgw Ny9hdHRhY2htZW50LmE+Cg== From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun May 22 02:10:26 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:10:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: <4dd86b42.8a4ee50a.493a.ffffa36a@mx.google.com> References: <4dd8654a.1192e60a.427d.6706@mx.google.com> <4dd86b42.8a4ee50a.493a.ffffa36a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Chris, this is just to complement your motto! I've always hated the term, "Visually Impaired." You can find my post on this, on the Faith Talk list, if you're interested. Blessings, Joshua On 5/21/11, Rania Ismail wrote: > Chris, just to correct you BISM stands for Blind Industries and Services of > Maryland. > > Rania, > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 9:22 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB > > I went to BYSM in Baltimore. That stands for Blind Youth > Services of Maryland, by the way. > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNoteI went to > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNoteI went to BYSM > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 20:39:53 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB > > Chris: > Just wondering, > what training center did you go to? > > > On May 21, 2011, at 10:52 AM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > > Thanks, Kirt! I appreciate the kind words. To answer your > question, I wasn't really introduced to the Federation > originally, my parents were. Therefore, I was a member of the > Federation with my parents and liked > a lot of what I heard. I went to one of the NFB sponsored > training center programs and learned a lot. Then recently I went > to the NFB LAW Program at the national center, the first program > I'd ever gone to at the Jernigan Institute. That program just > strengthened my belief in the Federation philosophy. But I still > felt that the views I was hearing were kind of extreme, so I > wanted to learn more about the philosophy of the NFB before I > totally threw my support behind them. After listening to some > stuff on nfb.org, I asked this list and the other list I'm on my > "what is Federationism?" question so I knew people's personal > feelings about Federationism. Once I read a lot of posts on this > subject and learned about the real NFB philosophy, I decided to > join the Federation as a total Federationist!!!!! Yea!!!!! So > really, my decision to join the Federation myself was mostly > because of your insight! Thanks guys!!! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities > motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 14:21:25 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB > > Chris, > It's awesome you're on here. You're a case study of why it's > good > for students to get on board while they're young. Just out of > curiosity, how were you introduced to the Federation? > > On 5/20/11, 혇is Nusbaum wrote: > I agree completely, Kirt! Great points! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities > motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:57:10 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB > > Darian and all, > I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission > teachers. > (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, > itinerate > teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind > students, and their parents, first impressions about blindness > and > thus they have a huge influence on whatever expectations a > student or > parent develops about what is possible as a blind person. I > think we > need to put a lot more energy in to sincerely dialoguing with > these > teachers, especially the reasonable ones who don't agree with us > (I'm > not saying all teachers who disagree with us are reasonable), to > improve our image and the way we're presented to students. > Because my > state affiliate is pretty good at this, my TVI, although she > disagreed > with a lot of what the NFB does, didn't discourage me from > coming > to > my own opinions and getting as much firsthand experience with > the > Federation as I could. Even those blindness professionals who > disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a civil and > courteous > manner, direct students to our organization. It happened with > me. > Warmest regards, > Kirt > > On 5/19/11, Darian Smith wrote: > You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion > is > the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what > you may > think needs improving?" > I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit > of > mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a > matter > that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, > this > in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are > also > very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the > answers! > Best, > Darian > > On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > I don't think we're doing enough with the > middleschool/elementary > population. > We need to get the message out faster, > to the younger kids. > > > On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: > > Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think > about this > question? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" wrote: > > I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB, > and > whether or not we're doing anything to address how to > communicate our > message in a way that will reach people through new > technologies. > Thanks. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb > %40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb > %40gmail.com > > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > ?Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > > > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 22 02:11:45 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:11:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction Message-ID: <4dd870e2.06a3e60a.0fbc.6a1a@mx.google.com> Michelle, Thank you, appreciate it! Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michelle Clark" Hi all, On the ally sign-up page, there's a checkbox that says "please certify that the person completing this form is at least 18" or something like that. I assume that means that only a person that's either 18 or older can fill out the form and sign up, am I correct in this assumption? Thanks, Josh Sent from my Apex Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun May 22 02:27:09 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:27:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] another learning ally question In-Reply-To: <4dd87326.8d8de50a.1b32.ffffa4ce@mx.google.com> References: <4dd87326.8d8de50a.1b32.ffffa4ce@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Yes. Blessings, Joshua On 5/21/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > Hi all, > On the ally sign-up page, there's a checkbox that says "please > certify that the person completing this form is at least 18" or > something like that. I assume that means that only a person > that's either 18 or older can fill out the form and sign up, am I > correct in this assumption? > Thanks, > Josh > > Sent from my Apex > > Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun May 22 02:29:38 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:29:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <4dd80446.8d8de50a.35dc.ffff9d7f@mx.google.com> References: <4dd80446.8d8de50a.35dc.ffff9d7f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <84D0213B394A4FE697EE38E6DE12785F@OwnerPC> Chris, I agree. Why do we need the same symbols? Sighted people use different symbols for math and science. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 2:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? But my point is if print readers use different symbols for letters than numbers and math symbols, why do we need the same symbols for numbers and letters in Braille? So then... would you also recommend a unified code for print? Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Aikens wrote: I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What about the future of Nemeth? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun May 22 02:30:18 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:30:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: References: <4dd80446.8d8de50a.35dc.ffff9d7f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <3BB9026B455A4A9C8F97F23505A9EAF7@OwnerPC> We're better off with two codes. -----Original Message----- From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 3:48 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? I was going to say the exact same thing, but you beat me to it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 11:47 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > Chris, > I'm not recommending a unified code. All I'm saying is that, > because braille is limited to a relatively small number of dot > combinations, and in print you can pretty much draw whatever the hell > you want, we're better off with the separate codes as they stand, with > modifications to each code as the need arises. In other words-there > aren't enough possible things you can do with braille to make a > unified code, with separate symbols for letters and numbers and music > and computer characters practical. Braille is equal to print. > Braille is not print. > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/21/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> But my point is if print readers use different symbols for >> letters than numbers and math symbols, >> why do we need the same symbols for numbers and letters in >> Braille? So then... would you also recommend a unified code for >> print? >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Greg Aikens > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 00:25:40 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Hi Chris, >> I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In >> print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. In >> braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and >> letters depending on context. The unified system would >> theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to determine >> what a text says, making it more like print. >> >> The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to >> learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, >> and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is >> rather clunky and unwieldy. >> >> I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code >> would be better than the current systems used. But having one >> code does seem like it might simplify things. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> Greg >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, 혇is Nusbaum wrote: >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, >> don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for >> literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are >> different symbols for different operations in math than they are >> in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is >> affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities >> motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Greg Aikens > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the >> code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with >> literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended >> by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have >> not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so >> I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction >> here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools >> can be improved and better used in general though. >> >> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of >> unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which >> integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a >> challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new >> code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than >> mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. >> >> -Greg >> >> >> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> >> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >> Nemeth Code will stay around! >> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> >> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the >> main >> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college >> Algebra. >> >> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >> To: NABS-L >> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in >> general. What >> about the future of Nemeth? >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >> ydude%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >> 62%40students.pccua.edu >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >> 40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >> 40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Sun May 22 02:32:20 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:32:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB In-Reply-To: <4dd8701d.81a5e60a.15cc.69d3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4dd875ba.4969e50a.33ba.ffffa7e2@mx.google.com> Your welcome Chris! Glad to help! Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:08 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB Oh yeah! I read someone on here call it BYSM and assumed it was=20 their Youth Services department. Thanks, Rania! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rania Ismail" wrote: I agree completely, Kirt! Great points! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion is the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what you may think needs improving?" I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit of mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a matter that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand, this in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are also very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the answers! Best, Darian On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: I don't think we're doing enough with the middleschool/elementary population. We need to get the message out faster, to the younger kids. On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote: Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think about this question? Sent from my iPhone On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" My=20issue=20with=20this=20is=20that:=20As=20stated=20before,=20if=20a=20ne= w=20code=20were=20 to=20be=20implemented,=20we'd=20have=20to=20learn=20it,=20when=20we=20could= =20keep=20what=20 we=20have=20and=20not=20have=20to=20learn=20a=20thing.=20=20As=20others=20o= n=20here=20have=20 said,=20(and=20IMO)=20it's=20better=20separately. Josh sent=20from=20my=20Apex Email:=20joshkart12 at gmail.com =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20=20wrote: I'm=20with=20Mike=20here.=20=20Nemeth=20is=20absolutely=20brilliant-probabl= y=20the main reason=20(aside=20from=20awesome=20tutors)=20I=20was=20able=20to=20pass=20c= ollege Algebra. On=205/19/11,=20Mike=20Freeman=20=20wrote: It'll=20stay=20around=20if=20I=20have=20anything=20to=20do=20with=20it. Mike -----Original=20Message----- From:=20nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]=20On Behalf Of=20Nicole=20B.=20=20Torcolini=20at=20Home Sent:=20Thursday,=20May=2019,=202011=207:53=20PM To:=20NABS-L Subject:=20[nabs-l]=20The=20Future=20of=20Nemeth? Many=20people=20have=20been=20talking=20about=20the=20future=20of=20Braille= =20in general.=20=20What about=20the=20future=20of=20Nemeth? _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt info=20for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt info=20for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt info=20for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt info=20for=20nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt info=20for=20nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt info=20for=20nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info for=20nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma hb%40earthlink.net From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun May 22 02:41:16 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:41:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <3BB9026B455A4A9C8F97F23505A9EAF7@OwnerPC> References: <4dd80446.8d8de50a.35dc.ffff9d7f@mx.google.com> <3BB9026B455A4A9C8F97F23505A9EAF7@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Right on, Ashley! Blessings, Joshua On 5/21/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > We're better off with two codes. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 3:48 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > I was going to say the exact same thing, but you beat me to it. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirt Manwaring" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 11:47 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > >> Chris, >> I'm not recommending a unified code. All I'm saying is that, >> because braille is limited to a relatively small number of dot >> combinations, and in print you can pretty much draw whatever the hell >> you want, we're better off with the separate codes as they stand, with >> modifications to each code as the need arises. In other words-there >> aren't enough possible things you can do with braille to make a >> unified code, with separate symbols for letters and numbers and music >> and computer characters practical. Braille is equal to print. >> Braille is not print. >> Warmly, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/21/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>> But my point is if print readers use different symbols for >>> letters than numbers and math symbols, >>> why do we need the same symbols for numbers and letters in >>> Braille? So then... would you also recommend a unified code for >>> print? >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>> >>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Greg Aikens >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 00:25:40 -0500 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>> >>> Hi Chris, >>> I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In >>> print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. In >>> braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and >>> letters depending on context. The unified system would >>> theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to determine >>> what a text says, making it more like print. >>> >>> The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to >>> learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, >>> and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is >>> rather clunky and unwieldy. >>> >>> I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code >>> would be better than the current systems used. But having one >>> code does seem like it might simplify things. >>> >>> Just my thoughts, >>> Greg >>> >>> On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, 혇is Nusbaum wrote: >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, >>> don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for >>> literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are >>> different symbols for different operations in math than they are >>> in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is >>> affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities >>> motto) >>> >>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Greg Aikens >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>> >>> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the >>> code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with >>> literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended >>> by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have >>> not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so >>> I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction >>> here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools >>> can be improved and better used in general though. >>> >>> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of >>> unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which >>> integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a >>> challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new >>> code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than >>> mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> >>> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>> >>> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >>> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >>> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >>> Nemeth Code will stay around! >>> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the >>> main >>> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college >>> Algebra. >>> >>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>> To: NABS-L >>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>> >>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in >>> general. What >>> about the future of Nemeth? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>> anix.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>> ydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >>> 62%40students.pccua.edu >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 22 02:46:12 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:46:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] another learning ally question Message-ID: <4dd878f4.a559e60a.5b8d.686a@mx.google.com> Thanks Josh! Josh G sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: Hi all, On the ally sign-up page, there's a checkbox that says "please certify that the person completing this form is at least 18" or something like that. I assume that means that only a person that's either 18 or older can fill out the form and sign up, am I correct in this assumption? Thanks, Josh Sent from my Apex Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From jty727 at gmail.com Sun May 22 03:22:33 2011 From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 23:22:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally In-Reply-To: <4dd86efc.1192e60a.6bfb.6b76@mx.google.com> References: <4dd86efc.1192e60a.6bfb.6b76@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Its been a while so I don't recall if there is a star near the Address box, but it is there for ordering CDs for a player which uses them. Justin On 5/21/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > OK thanks! > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 18:56:15 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally > > Required fields are marked with a star (*). > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Josh Gregory" To: Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 6:12 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally > > > Hi all, > I have a question about learning ally sign up. Is it necessary > to put > your address where you live in the form, or can you get buy > without that > info? My school uses this service and > I really want to have an individual account so that I may > utilize it as > well. Thanks! > Josh > > Sent from my Apex > > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sun May 22 03:23:47 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 23:23:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] my album is on its last run Message-ID: Hi all: Just wanted to let you know my latest album on iTunes is on its last few months on the iTunes store. Please check it out at http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/my-memories-bonus-edition/id403859074 and help support my music career. Thank you, Jorge From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 22 03:31:32 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 23:31:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally Message-ID: <4dd88395.5069e50a.7aee.ffffa37c@mx.google.com> Justin, there is no star on that box. But it doesn't matter CAUSE I cannot sign up anyway, I have to be 18. Come on, less than two months lol! Hey, thanks though! Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Justin Young wrote: OK thanks! Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" References: <4dd88395.5069e50a.7aee.ffffa37c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Haha! Yes I remember those days! Anytime man! Justin On 5/21/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > Justin, there is no star on that box. But it doesn't matter > CAUSE I cannot sign up anyway, I have to be 18. Come on, less > than two months lol! Hey, thanks though! > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Justin Young To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 23:22:33 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally > > Its been a while so I don't recall if there is a star near the > Address > box, but it is there for ordering CDs for a player which uses > them. > Justin > > On 5/21/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > OK thanks! > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 18:56:15 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally > > Required fields are marked with a star (*). > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Josh Gregory" To: Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 6:12 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally > > > Hi all, > I have a question about learning ally sign up. Is it necessary > to put > your address where you live in the form, or can you get buy > without that > info? My school uses this service and > I really want to have an individual account so that I may > utilize it as > well. Thanks! > Josh > > Sent from my Apex > > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40 > gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Sun May 22 03:49:58 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 20:49:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally References: <4dd88395.5069e50a.7aee.ffffa37c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <166C520F19B449AEAB47B7A2FAEF029E@stanford.edu> Well, you'll get to vote for the next president next year. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh Gregory" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally > Justin, there is no star on that box. But it doesn't matter CAUSE I > cannot sign up anyway, I have to be 18. Come on, less than two months > lol! Hey, thanks though! > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Justin Young To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 23:22:33 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally > > Its been a while so I don't recall if there is a star near the Address > box, but it is there for ordering CDs for a player which uses them. > Justin > > On 5/21/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > OK thanks! > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 18:56:15 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally > > Required fields are marked with a star (*). > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Josh Gregory" To: Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 6:12 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally > > > Hi all, > I have a question about learning ally sign up. Is it necessary > to put > your address where you live in the form, or can you get buy > without that > info? My school uses this service and > I really want to have an individual account so that I may > utilize it as > well. Thanks! > Josh > > Sent from my Apex > > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40 > gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun May 22 03:59:41 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 23:59:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally In-Reply-To: <4dd88395.5069e50a.7aee.ffffa37c@mx.google.com> References: <4dd88395.5069e50a.7aee.ffffa37c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <27FB3EA790004B4EB47218851B08C93F@OwnerPC> Josh, couldn't your parents or a family member sign up for you then? I didn't know you had to be 18 to get in. Wonder if that is a new thing. -----Original Message----- From: Josh Gregory Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 11:31 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally Justin, there is no star on that box. But it doesn't matter CAUSE I cannot sign up anyway, I have to be 18. Come on, less than two months lol! Hey, thanks though! Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Justin Young wrote: OK thanks! Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" Haha you know I can't wait for that! :D (big smile) Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" wrote: OK thanks! Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" References: <4dd88395.5069e50a.7aee.ffffa37c@mx.google.com> <27FB3EA790004B4EB47218851B08C93F@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Josh, why doesn't your Braille instructor sign you up? I wouldn't recommend them, (Learning Ally,) anyway. Get what you can, in Braille, and from www.bookshare.org, before going to them. Blessings, Joshua On 5/21/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Josh, couldn't your parents or a family member sign up for you then? > I didn't know you had to be 18 to get in. Wonder if that is a new thing. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Josh Gregory > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 11:31 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally > > Justin, there is no star on that box. But it doesn't matter > CAUSE I cannot sign up anyway, I have to be 18. Come on, less > than two months lol! Hey, thanks though! > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Justin Young To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 23:22:33 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally > > Its been a while so I don't recall if there is a star near the > Address > box, but it is there for ordering CDs for a player which uses > them. > Justin > > On 5/21/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > OK thanks! > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 18:56:15 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally > > Required fields are marked with a star (*). > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Josh Gregory" To: Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 6:12 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally > > > Hi all, > I have a question about learning ally sign up. Is it necessary > to put > your address where you live in the form, or can you get buy > without that > info? My school uses this service and > I really want to have an individual account so that I may > utilize it as > well. Thanks! > Josh > > Sent from my Apex > > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40 > gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 22 04:20:36 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 00:20:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally Message-ID: <4dd88f14.898de50a.6b4c.ffffa3f3@mx.google.com> Ashley, It could be, and good point! And then I could use it! You rock! Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: wrote: OK thanks! Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" References: <4dd6cccc.d8a3e60a.73f8.51eb@mx.google.com> <1ECFEE14-AA78-49DB-AB95-C24D01AB82DC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <39CCAA06-4C9D-4647-BC2D-196B8916FCEF@panix.com> Computer Braille is an abomination -- but I use it. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 21, 2011, at 13:58, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" wrote: > *NO.* > Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer Braille and Nemeth is the very reason that I started this thread. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:29 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > Well, > could we perhaps fuze the standards for Nemith and computer braille? > Make it just one code? > > > > On May 21, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > >> Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, such a goal is a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers are used that the code becomes unwieldy. >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: >> >>> Hi Chris, >>> I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. In braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and letters depending on context. The unified system would theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to determine what a text says, making it more like print. >>> >>> The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is rather clunky and unwieldy. >>> >>> I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code would be better than the current systems used. But having one code does seem like it might simplify things. >>> >>> Just my thoughts, >>> Greg >>> >>> On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Greg, >>>> >>>> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are different symbols for different operations in math than they are in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>>> >>>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Greg Aikens >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>> >>>> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools can be improved and better used in general though. >>>> >>>> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>> >>>> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >>>> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >>>> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >>>> Nemeth Code will stay around! >>>> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>> >>>> >>>> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >>>> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >>>> >>>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>>> To: NABS-L >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>> >>>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What >>>> about the future of Nemeth? >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>>> anix.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>>> ydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >>>> 62%40students.pccua.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 22 04:38:55 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 00:38:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Message-ID: <4dd89360.82d6e60a.38bb.2fc1@mx.google.com> Um...=20=20can=20you=20explain=20that=20one?=20Personally,=20I=20find=20it= =20useable.=20=20 Even=20though=20I=20hate=20having=20to=20type=20it=20into=20web=20sites. Josh sent=20from=20my=20Apex Email:=20joshkart12 at gmail.com =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Mike=20Freeman=20=20wrote: =20*NO.* =20Problems=20with=20people=20trying=20to=20use=20a=20mixture=20of=20Comput= er=20=20 Braille=20and=20Nemeth=20is=20the=20very=20reason=20that=20I=20started=20th= is=20thread. =20-----=20Original=20Message=20-----=20From:=20"Jorge=20Paez"=20 =20 wrote: =20Hi=20Chris, =20I=20think=20the=20point=20you=20make=20is=20the=20idea=20behind=20a=20un= ified=20code.=20=20 In=20print,=20different=20symbols=20are=20used=20for=20math=20and=20for=20l= etters.=20=20 In=20braille,=20we=20use=20the=20same=20symbols=20to=20represent=20both=20m= ath=20and=20 letters=20depending=20on=20context.=20=20The=20unified=20system=20would=20 theoretically=20eliminate=20much=20of=20the=20need=20for=20context=20to=20d= etermine=20 what=20a=20text=20says,=20making=20it=20more=20like=20print. =20The=20appeal=20of=20a=20unified=20code=20is=20that=20there=20is=20only=20= one=20code=20to=20 learn,=20instead=20of=20learning=20one=20code=20for=20reading,=20one=20for= =20math,=20 and=20one=20for=20computer=20symbols.=20=20Computer=20braille,=20for=20exam= ple,=20is=20 rather=20clunky=20and=20unwieldy. =20I=20don't=20really=20have=20a=20strong=20opinion=20about=20whether=20a=20= unified=20 code=20would=20be=20better=20than=20the=20current=20systems=20used.=20=20Bu= t=20having=20 one=20code=20does=20seem=20like=20it=20might=20simplify=20things. =20Just=20my=20thoughts, =20Greg =20On=20May=2020,=202011,=20at=203:19=20PM,=20=C3=82ris=20Nusbaum=20wrote: =20Hi=20Greg, =20My=20only=20counterpoint=20to=20that=20suggestion=20(which=20is=20a=20go= od=20one,=20 don't=20get=20me=20wrong)=20is=20that=20there=20are=20different=20symbols=20= for=20 literary=20and=20math=20print=20as=20far=20as=20I=20know.=20=20In=20print,= =20there=20are=20 different=20symbols=20for=20different=20operations=20in=20math=20than=20the= y=20are=20 in=20Nemeth.=20=20If=20anyone=20is=20a=20Braille/print=20expert=20here=20or= =20is=20 affiliated=20with=20BANA,=20could=20you=20confirm=20or=20clarify=20this=20f= or=20me? =20Chris =20"A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abi= lities=20 motto) =20---=20Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20Greg=20Aikens=20=20wrote: =20I'm=20with=20Mike=20here.=20=20Nemeth=20is=20absolutely=20brilliant-prob= ably=20the=20 main =20reason=20(aside=20from=20awesome=20tutors)=20I=20was=20able=20to=20pass= =20college=20 Algebra. =20On=205/19/11,=20Mike=20Freeman=20=20wrote: =20It'll=20stay=20around=20if=20I=20have=20anything=20to=20do=20with=20it. =20Mike =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org=20 [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]=20On =20Behalf =20Of=20Nicole=20B.=20=20Torcolini=20at=20Home =20Sent:=20Thursday,=20May=2019,=202011=207:53=20PM =20To:=20NABS-L =20Subject:=20[nabs-l]=20The=20Future=20of=20Nemeth? =20Many=20people=20have=20been=20talking=20about=20the=20future=20of=20Brai= lle=20in=20 general.=20=20What =20about=20the=20future=20of=20Nemeth? =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p =20anix.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz =20ydude%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 =2062%40students.pccua.edu =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% =2040gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu =20sbaum%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert echjorgepaez%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From k7uij at panix.com Sun May 22 04:37:54 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:37:54 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <1ECFEE14-AA78-49DB-AB95-C24D01AB82DC@gmail.com> References: <4dd6cccc.d8a3e60a.73f8.51eb@mx.google.com> <1ECFEE14-AA78-49DB-AB95-C24D01AB82DC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <27D736F5-4C5F-40E0-969C-A66469B8DF38@panix.com> Suits me! Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 21, 2011, at 13:29, Jorge Paez wrote: > Well, > could we perhaps fuze the standards for Nemith and computer braille? > Make it just one code? > > > > On May 21, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > >> Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, such a goal is a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers are used that the code becomes unwieldy. >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: >> >>> Hi Chris, >>> I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. In braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and letters depending on context. The unified system would theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to determine what a text says, making it more like print. >>> >>> The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is rather clunky and unwieldy. >>> >>> I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code would be better than the current systems used. But having one code does seem like it might simplify things. >>> >>> Just my thoughts, >>> Greg >>> >>> On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Greg, >>>> >>>> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are different symbols for different operations in math than they are in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>>> >>>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Greg Aikens >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>> >>>> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools can be improved and better used in general though. >>>> >>>> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>> >>>> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >>>> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >>>> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >>>> Nemeth Code will stay around! >>>> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>> >>>> >>>> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >>>> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >>>> >>>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>>> To: NABS-L >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>> >>>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What >>>> about the future of Nemeth? >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>>> anix.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>>> ydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >>>> 62%40students.pccua.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun May 22 05:23:59 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 23:23:59 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <4dd89360.82d6e60a.38bb.2fc1@mx.google.com> References: <4dd89360.82d6e60a.38bb.2fc1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I hate -put} brl b I use x all ! "t *smile* On 5/21/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > Um... can you explain that one? Personally, I find it useable. > Even though I hate having to type it into web sites. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Freeman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:31:34 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Computer Braille is an abomination -- but I use it. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 21, 2011, at 13:58, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" > wrote: > > *NO.* > Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer > Braille and Nemeth is the very reason that I started this thread. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:29 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > Well, > could we perhaps fuze the standards for Nemith and computer > braille? > Make it just one code? > > > > On May 21, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > > Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, such > a goal is a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers > are used that the code becomes unwieldy. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens > wrote: > > Hi Chris, > I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. > In print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. > In braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and > letters depending on context. The unified system would > theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to determine > what a text says, making it more like print. > > The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to > learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, > and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is > rather clunky and unwieldy. > > I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified > code would be better than the current systems used. But having > one code does seem like it might simplify things. > > Just my thoughts, > Greg > > On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, 횂ris Nusbaum wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, > don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for > literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are > different symbols for different operations in math than they are > in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is > affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities > motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Greg Aikens To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the > code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with > literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended > by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have > not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so > I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction > here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools > can be improved and better used in general though. > > As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of > unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which > integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a > challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new > code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than > mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. > > -Greg > > > On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. > I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being > changed, or it becoming obsilete. > Nemeth Code will stay around! > I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! > Blessings, Joshua > > > On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the > main > reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college > Algebra. > > On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM > To: NABS-L > Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in > general. What > about the future of Nemeth? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 > 62%40students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > > From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Sun May 22 05:37:17 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:37:17 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? References: <4dd89360.82d6e60a.38bb.2fc1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <8A98C5C2A2244F9AACA9227CE621C6AF@stanford.edu> Hahaha. If anyone did not get that, I can explain. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:23 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >I hate -put} brl b I use x all ! "t *smile* > > On 5/21/11, Josh Gregory wrote: >> Um... can you explain that one? Personally, I find it useable. >> Even though I hate having to type it into web sites. >> Josh >> >> sent from my Apex >> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Mike Freeman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:31:34 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Computer Braille is an abomination -- but I use it. >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 21, 2011, at 13:58, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" >> wrote: >> >> *NO.* >> Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer >> Braille and Nemeth is the very reason that I started this thread. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:29 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> >> Well, >> could we perhaps fuze the standards for Nemith and computer >> braille? >> Make it just one code? >> >> >> >> On May 21, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >> >> Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, such >> a goal is a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers >> are used that the code becomes unwieldy. >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens >> wrote: >> >> Hi Chris, >> I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. >> In print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. >> In braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and >> letters depending on context. The unified system would >> theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to determine >> what a text says, making it more like print. >> >> The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to >> learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, >> and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is >> rather clunky and unwieldy. >> >> I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified >> code would be better than the current systems used. But having >> one code does seem like it might simplify things. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> Greg >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, 횂ris Nusbaum wrote: >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, >> don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for >> literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are >> different symbols for different operations in math than they are >> in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is >> affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities >> motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Greg Aikens > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the >> code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with >> literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended >> by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have >> not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so >> I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction >> here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools >> can be improved and better used in general though. >> >> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of >> unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which >> integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a >> challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new >> code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than >> mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. >> >> -Greg >> >> >> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> >> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >> Nemeth Code will stay around! >> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> >> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the >> main >> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college >> Algebra. >> >> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >> To: NABS-L >> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in >> general. What >> about the future of Nemeth? >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >> ydude%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >> 62%40students.pccua.edu >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >> 40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >> 40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >> echjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin >> i%40wavecable.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >> 2%40gmail.com >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 22 05:43:47 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 01:43:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Message-ID: <4dd8a294.898de50a.351b.ffffa2bd@mx.google.com> Me=20too,=20it=20was:=20I=20hate=20computer=20braille=20but=20I=20use=20it= =20all=20the=20 time,=20and=20he=20was=20typing=20in=20computer=20braille. Josh sent=20from=20my=20Apex Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com -----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Nicole=20B.=20=20Torcolini=20at=20Home"=20=20wrote: =20Um...=20=20can=20you=20explain=20that=20one?=20Personally,=20I=20find=20= it=20useable. =20Even=20though=20I=20hate=20having=20to=20type=20it=20into=20web=20sites.= =20Josh =20sent=20from=20my=20Apex =20Email:=20joshkart12 at gmail.com =20=20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20Mike=20Freeman=20=20wrote: =20=20*NO.* =20=20Problems=20with=20people=20trying=20to=20use=20a=20mixture=20of=20Com= puter =20Braille=20and=20Nemeth=20is=20the=20very=20reason=20that=20I=20started=20= this=20 thread. =20=20-----=20Original=20Message=20-----=20From:=20"Jorge=20Paez" =20=20wrote= : =20=20I'm=20with=20Mike=20here.=20=20Nemeth=20is=20absolutely=20brilliant-p= robably=20 the =20main =20=20reason=20(aside=20from=20awesome=20tutors)=20I=20was=20able=20to=20pa= ss=20college =20Algebra. =20=20On=205/19/11,=20Mike=20Freeman=20=20wrote: =20=20It'll=20stay=20around=20if=20I=20have=20anything=20to=20do=20with=20i= t. =20=20Mike =20=20-----Original=20Message----- =20=20From:=20nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org =20[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]=20On =20=20Behalf =20=20Of=20Nicole=20B.=20=20Torcolini=20at=20Home =20=20Sent:=20Thursday,=20May=2019,=202011=207:53=20PM =20=20To:=20NABS-L =20=20Subject:=20[nabs-l]=20The=20Future=20of=20Nemeth? =20=20Many=20people=20have=20been=20talking=20about=20the=20future=20of=20B= raille=20in =20general.=20=20What =20=20about=20the=20future=20of=20Nemeth? =20=20_______________________________________________ =20=20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20=20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20=20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20=20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your= =20account =20info=20for =20=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p =20=20anix.com =20=20_______________________________________________ =20=20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20=20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20=20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20=20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your= =20account =20info=20for =20=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz =20=20ydude%40gmail.com =20=20_______________________________________________ =20=20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20=20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20=20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20=20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your= =20account =20info=20for =20=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 =20=2062%40students.pccua.edu =20=20_______________________________________________ =20=20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20=20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20=20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20=20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your= =20account =20info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% =20=2040gmail.com =20=20_______________________________________________ =20=20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20=20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20=20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20=20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your= =20account =20info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu =20=20sbaum%40gmail.com =20=20_______________________________________________ =20=20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20=20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20=20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20=20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your= =20account =20info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% =2040gmail.com =20=20_______________________________________________ =20=20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20=20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20=20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20=20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your= =20account =20info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p =20anix.com =20=20_______________________________________________ =20=20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20=20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20=20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20=20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your= =20account =20info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert =20echjorgepaez%40gmail.com =20=20_______________________________________________ =20=20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20=20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20=20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20=20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your= =20account =20info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin =20i%40wavecable.com =20=20_______________________________________________ =20=20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20=20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20=20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20=20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your= =20account =20info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p =20anix.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info =20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 =202%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Sun May 22 05:48:22 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:48:22 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? References: <4dd8a294.898de50a.351b.ffffa2bd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <6906815B7D5E41FB8C339A90C6C0E96E@stanford.edu> Not quite. He was writing in the Grade 2 dot combinations in the Computer= =20 Braille context, hence the context part. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Josh Gregory" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"=20 Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:43 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Me too, it was: I hate computer braille but I use it all the time, and he was typing in computer braille. Josh sent from my Apex Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" wrote: Um... can you explain that one? Personally, I find it useable. Even though I hate having to type it into web sites. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Freeman wrote: *NO.* Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer Braille and Nemeth is the very reason that I started this thread. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" wrote: I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What about the future of Nemeth? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert echjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for=20 > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wa= vecable.com >=20 From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun May 22 05:52:33 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 23:52:33 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <6906815B7D5E41FB8C339A90C6C0E96E@stanford.edu> References: <4dd8a294.898de50a.351b.ffffa2bd@mx.google.com> <6906815B7D5E41FB8C339A90C6C0E96E@stanford.edu> Message-ID: "! was ? "o "t I op5$ a brf file 9 notepad, & x look$ "s?+ l ?...I'll stop now, sorry. On 5/21/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > Not quite. He was writing in the Grade 2 dot combinations in the Computer > Braille context, hence the context part. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Josh Gregory" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:43 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > Me too, it was: I hate computer braille but I use it all the > time, and he was typing in computer braille. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:37:17 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Hahaha. If anyone did not get that, I can explain. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:23 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > I hate -put} brl b I use x all ! "t *smile* > > On 5/21/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > Um... can you explain that one? Personally, I find it useable. > Even though I hate having to type it into web sites. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Freeman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:31:34 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Computer Braille is an abomination -- but I use it. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 21, 2011, at 13:58, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" > wrote: > > *NO.* > Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer > Braille and Nemeth is the very reason that I started this > thread. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:29 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > Well, > could we perhaps fuze the standards for Nemith and computer > braille? > Make it just one code? > > > > On May 21, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > > Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, > such > a goal is a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers > are used that the code becomes unwieldy. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: > > Hi Chris, > I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. > In print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. > In braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and > letters depending on context. The unified system would > theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to > determine > what a text says, making it more like print. > > The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to > learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, > and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is > rather clunky and unwieldy. > > I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified > code would be better than the current systems used. But having > one code does seem like it might simplify things. > > Just my thoughts, > Greg > > On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, ?굍is Nusbaum wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, > don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for > literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are > different symbols for different operations in math than they are > in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is > affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities > motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Greg Aikens To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the > code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with > literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended > by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have > not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so > I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction > here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools > can be improved and better used in general though. > > As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of > unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which > integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a > challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new > code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than > mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. > > -Greg > > > On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. > I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being > changed, or it becoming obsilete. > Nemeth Code will stay around! > I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! > Blessings, Joshua > > > On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably > the > main > reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college > Algebra. > > On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM > To: NABS-L > Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in > general. What > about the future of Nemeth? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 > 62%40students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >> > > > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 22 05:54:16 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 01:54:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Message-ID: <4dd8a509.05a2e60a.09fc.6de3@mx.google.com> Explain... Josh sent=20from=20my=20Apex Email:=20joshkart12 at gmail.com =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Nicole=20B.=20=20Torcolini=20at=20Home"=20=20wrote: =20Um...=20=20can=20you=20explain=20that=20one?=20Personally,=20I=20find=20= it=20useable. =20Even=20though=20I=20hate=20having=20to=20type=20it=20into=20web=20sites.= =20Josh =20sent=20from=20my=20Apex =20Email:=20joshkart12 at gmail.com =20=20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20Mike=20Freeman=20=20wrote: =20=20*NO.* =20=20Problems=20with=20people=20trying=20to=20use=20a=20mixture=20of=20Com= puter =20Braille=20and=20Nemeth=20is=20the=20very=20reason=20that=20I=20started=20= this thread. =20=20-----=20Original=20Message=20-----=20From:=20"Jorge=20Paez" =20=20wrote= : =20=20I'm=20with=20Mike=20here.=20=20Nemeth=20is=20absolutely=20brilliant-p= robably the =20main =20=20reason=20(aside=20from=20awesome=20tutors)=20I=20was=20able=20to=20pa= ss=20college =20Algebra. =20=20On=205/19/11,=20Mike=20Freeman=20=20wrote: =20=20It'll=20stay=20around=20if=20I=20have=20anything=20to=20do=20with=20i= t. =20=20Mike =20=20-----Original=20Message----- =20=20From:=20nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org =20[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]=20On =20=20Behalf =20=20Of=20Nicole=20B.=20=20Torcolini=20at=20Home =20=20Sent:=20Thursday,=20May=2019,=202011=207:53=20PM =20=20To:=20NABS-L =20=20Subject:=20[nabs-l]=20The=20Future=20of=20Nemeth? =20=20Many=20people=20have=20been=20talking=20about=20the=20future=20of=20B= raille=20in =20general.=20=20What =20=20about=20the=20future=20of=20Nemeth? =20=20_______________________________________________ =20=20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20=20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20=20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20=20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your= =20account =20info=20for =20=20nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p =20=20anix.com =20=20_______________________________________________ =20=20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20=20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20=20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20=20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your= =20account =20info=20for =20=20nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz =20=20ydude%40gmail.com =20=20_______________________________________________ =20=20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20=20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20=20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20=20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your= =20account =20info=20for =20=20nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 =20=2062%40students.pccua.edu =20=20_______________________________________________ =20=20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20=20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20=20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20=20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your= =20account =20info=20for=20nabs-l: 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=20=20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20=20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20=20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20=20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your= =20account =20info=20for=20nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p =20anix.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount info =20for=20nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 =202%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount info=20for =20nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info for=20nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun May 22 05:58:39 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 23:58:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <4dd8a509.05a2e60a.09fc.6de3@mx.google.com> References: <4dd8a509.05a2e60a.09fc.6de3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Josh, You pretty much had it-accept I was't writing in computer braille, I was writing like contracted braille looks on a computer without braille translation. On 5/21/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > Explain... > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:48:22 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Not quite. He was writing in the Grade 2 dot combinations in the > Computer > Braille context, hence the context part. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Josh Gregory" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:43 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > Me too, it was: I hate computer braille but I use it all the > time, and he was typing in computer braille. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:37:17 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Hahaha. If anyone did not get that, I can explain. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:23 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > I hate -put} brl b I use x all ! "t *smile* > > On 5/21/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > Um... can you explain that one? Personally, I find it useable. > Even though I hate having to type it into web sites. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Freeman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:31:34 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Computer Braille is an abomination -- but I use it. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 21, 2011, at 13:58, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" > wrote: > > *NO.* > Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer > Braille and Nemeth is the very reason that I started this > thread. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:29 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > Well, > could we perhaps fuze the standards for Nemith and computer > braille? > Make it just one code? > > > > On May 21, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > > Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, > such > a goal is a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers > are used that the code becomes unwieldy. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: > > Hi Chris, > I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. > In print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. > In braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and > letters depending on context. The unified system would > theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to > determine > what a text says, making it more like print. > > The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to > learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, > and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is > rather clunky and unwieldy. > > I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified > code would be better than the current systems used. But having > one code does seem like it might simplify things. > > Just my thoughts, > Greg > > On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, ?굍is Nusbaum wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, > don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for > literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are > different symbols for different operations in math than they are > in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is > affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities > motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Greg Aikens To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the > code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with > literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended > by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have > not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so > I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction > here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools > can be improved and better used in general though. > > As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of > unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which > integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a > challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new > code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than > mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. > > -Greg > > > On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. > I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being > changed, or it becoming obsilete. > Nemeth Code will stay around! > I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! > Blessings, Joshua > > > On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably > the > main > reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college > Algebra. > > On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM > To: NABS-L > Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in > general. What > about the future of Nemeth? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 > 62%40students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > --------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > > > > > > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 22 06:00:53 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 02:00:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Message-ID: <4dd8a696.97abe60a.4d62.6ad4@mx.google.com> Was=20this=20one=20time=20I=20opened=20a=20brf=20file=20in=20word=20pad,=20= and=20it=20looked=20 something=20like=20this...=20=20It's=20easier=20looking=20at=20it=20on=20th= e=20display.=20=20 Nicole=20I=20see=20what=20you=20mean=20now.=20=20Like=20this,=20I=20do. Josh sent=20from=20my=20Apex Email:=20joshkart12 at gmail.com =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Kirt=20Manwaring=20=20wrote: =20Not=20quite.=20=20He=20was=20writing=20in=20the=20Grade=202=20dot=20comb= inations=20in=20 the=20Computer =20Braille=20context,=20hence=20the=20context=20part. =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Josh=20Gregory"=20=20wrote: =20=20Um...=20=20can=20you=20explain=20that=20one?=20Personally,=20I=20find= =20it=20useable. =20=20Even=20though=20I=20hate=20having=20to=20type=20it=20into=20web=20sit= es. =20=20Josh =20=20sent=20from=20my=20Apex =20=20Email:=20joshkart12 at gmail.com =20=20=20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20=20From:=20Mike=20Freeman=20=20wrote: =20=20=20*NO.* =20=20=20Problems=20with=20people=20trying=20to=20use=20a=20mixture=20of=20= Computer =20=20Braille=20and=20Nemeth=20is=20the=20very=20reason=20that=20I=20starte= d=20this =20thread. =20=20=20-----=20Original=20Message=20-----=20From:=20"Jorge=20Paez" =20=20=20wr= ote: =20=20=20I'm=20with=20Mike=20here.=20=20Nemeth=20is=20absolutely=20brillian= t-probably =20the =20=20main =20=20=20reason=20(aside=20from=20awesome=20tutors)=20I=20was=20able=20to=20= pass=20college =20=20Algebra. =20=20=20On=205/19/11,=20Mike=20Freeman=20=20wrote: =20=20=20It'll=20stay=20around=20if=20I=20have=20anything=20to=20do=20with= =20it. =20=20=20Mike =20=20=20-----Original=20Message----- =20=20=20From:=20nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org =20=20[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]=20On =20=20=20Behalf =20=20=20Of=20Nicole=20B.=20=20Torcolini=20at=20Home =20=20=20Sent:=20Thursday,=20May=2019,=202011=207:53=20PM =20=20=20To:=20NABS-L =20=20=20Subject:=20[nabs-l]=20The=20Future=20of=20Nemeth? =20=20=20Many=20people=20have=20been=20talking=20about=20the=20future=20of= =20Braille=20in =20=20general.=20=20What =20=20=20about=20the=20future=20of=20Nemeth? =20=20=20_______________________________________________ =20=20=20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20=20=20nabs-l at nfbnet.org 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=202%40gmail.com =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Sun May 22 06:03:52 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 23:03:52 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? References: <4dd8a509.05a2e60a.09fc.6de3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <2A4AE764EFE7403EA3A07C1DC3F86C4F@stanford.edu> If you set the Grade of in put to Computer Braille, and then write in Gra= de=20 2, you will get the same results. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Josh Gregory" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"=20 Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:54 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Explain... Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" wrote: Um... can you explain that one? Personally, I find it useable. Even though I hate having to type it into web sites. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Freeman wrote: *NO.* Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer Braille and Nemeth is the very reason that I started this thread. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" wrote: I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What about the future of Nemeth? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert echjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for=20 > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wa= vecable.com >=20 From jp100 at earthlink.net Sun May 22 06:04:22 2011 From: jp100 at earthlink.net (Jim) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 23:04:22 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: References: <4dd8a509.05a2e60a.09fc.6de3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <001a01cc1846$19122a60$4b367f20$@net> Wow. I've not seen a thread go for so long in such a long time! Wow! -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Josh, You pretty much had it-accept I was't writing in computer braille, I was writing like contracted braille looks on a computer without braille translation. On 5/21/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > Explain... > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:48:22 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Not quite. He was writing in the Grade 2 dot combinations in the > Computer > Braille context, hence the context part. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Josh Gregory" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:43 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > Me too, it was: I hate computer braille but I use it all the > time, and he was typing in computer braille. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:37:17 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Hahaha. If anyone did not get that, I can explain. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:23 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > I hate -put} brl b I use x all ! "t *smile* > > On 5/21/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > Um... can you explain that one? Personally, I find it useable. > Even though I hate having to type it into web sites. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Freeman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:31:34 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Computer Braille is an abomination -- but I use it. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 21, 2011, at 13:58, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" > wrote: > > *NO.* > Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer > Braille and Nemeth is the very reason that I started this > thread. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:29 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > Well, > could we perhaps fuze the standards for Nemith and computer > braille? > Make it just one code? > > > > On May 21, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > > Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, > such > a goal is a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers > are used that the code becomes unwieldy. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: > > Hi Chris, > I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. > In print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. > In braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and > letters depending on context. The unified system would > theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to > determine > what a text says, making it more like print. > > The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to > learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, > and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is > rather clunky and unwieldy. > > I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified > code would be better than the current systems used. But having > one code does seem like it might simplify things. > > Just my thoughts, > Greg > > On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, ?굍is Nusbaum wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, > don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for > literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are > different symbols for different operations in math than they are > in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is > affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities > motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Greg Aikens To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the > code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with > literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended > by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have > not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so > I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction > here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools > can be improved and better used in general though. > > As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of > unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which > integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a > challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new > code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than > mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. > > -Greg > > > On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. > I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being > changed, or it becoming obsilete. > Nemeth Code will stay around! > I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! > Blessings, Joshua > > > On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably > the > main > reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college > Algebra. > > On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM > To: NABS-L > Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in > general. What > about the future of Nemeth? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 > 62%40students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > --------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jp100%40earthlink.net From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 22 06:11:56 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 02:11:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Message-ID: <4dd8a92d.0ac6e60a.779b.6e8e@mx.google.com> WWVzLCBsaWtlIHRoaXM6IGhpMSBoeyB5OCAsP2lzIGlzIGFuIGV4YW1wbGUgKCBoeyB4J2QgbG9v ayBpZiBJIAp0eXAkIGwgPzQKCnNlbnQgZnJvbSBteSBBcGV4CkVtYWlsOiBqb3Noa2FydDEyQGdt YWlsLmNvbQoKIC0tLS0tIE9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UgLS0tLS0KRnJvbTogIk5pY29sZSBCLiAg VG9yY29saW5pIGF0IEhvbWUiIDxudG9yY29saW5pQHdhdmVjYWJsZS5jb20KVG86ICJOYXRpb25h bCBBc3NvY2lhdGlvbiBvZiBCbGluZCBTdHVkZW50cyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QiIAo8bmFicy1sQG5m Ym5ldC5vcmcKRGF0ZSBzZW50OiBTYXQsIDIxIE1heSAyMDExIDIzOjAzOjUyIC0wNzAwClN1Ympl Y3Q6IFJlOiBbbmFicy1sXSBUaGUgRnV0dXJlIG9mIE5lbWV0aD8KCklmIHlvdSBzZXQgdGhlIEdy YWRlIG9mIGluIHB1dCB0byBDb21wdXRlciBCcmFpbGxlLCBhbmQgdGhlbiAKd3JpdGUgaW4gR3Jh ZGUKMiwgeW91IHdpbGwgZ2V0IHRoZSBzYW1lIHJlc3VsdHMuCgotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNz YWdlIC0tLS0tCkZyb206ICJKb3NoIEdyZWdvcnkiIDxqb3Noa2FydDEyQGdtYWlsLmNvbQpUbzog Ik5hdGlvbmFsIEFzc29jaWF0aW9uIG9mIEJsaW5kIFN0dWRlbnRzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdCIKPG5h YnMtbEBuZmJuZXQub3JnClNlbnQ6IFNhdHVyZGF5LCBNYXkgMjEsIDIwMTEgMTA6NTQgUE0KU3Vi 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aW5nIGxpc3QKIG5hYnMtbEBuZmJuZXQub3JnCiBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm5mYm5ldC5vcmcvbWFpbG1h bi9saXN0aW5mby9uYWJzLWxfbmZibmV0Lm9yZwogVG8gdW5zdWJzY3JpYmUsIGNoYW5nZSB5b3Vy IGxpc3Qgb3B0aW9ucyBvciBnZXQgeW91ciBhY2NvdW50IAppbmZvIGZvcgogbmFicy1sOgogCmh0 dHA6Ly93d3cubmZibmV0Lm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL29wdGlvbnMvbmFicy1sX25mYm5ldC5vcmcvbnRv cmNvbGluCmklNDB3YXZlY2FibGUuY29tCgoKCgotLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLSBuZXh0IHBhcnQgLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0KQSBub24tdGV4dCBhdHRhY2htZW50IHdhcyBzY3J1YmJlZC4uLgpOYW1lOiBh dHRhY2htZW50ClR5cGU6IGFwcGxpY2F0aW9uL29jdGV0LXN0cmVhbQpTaXplOiAzMDggYnl0ZXMK RGVzYzogbm90IGF2YWlsYWJsZQpVUkw6IDxodHRwOi8vbmZibmV0Lm9yZy9waXBlcm1haWwvbmFi cy1sX25mYm5ldC5vcmcvYXR0YWNobWVudHMvMjAxMTA1MjIvNDE0MDhlNTUvYXR0YWNobWVudC5h Pgo= From ignasicambra at gmail.com Sun May 22 07:37:37 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 03:37:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] another learning ally question In-Reply-To: <4dd87326.8d8de50a.1b32.ffffa4ce@mx.google.com> References: <4dd87326.8d8de50a.1b32.ffffa4ce@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hmmm... Why don't you just check the checkbox and forget about it? I mean...really... On May 21, 2011, at 10:21 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: > Hi all, > On the ally sign-up page, there's a checkbox that says "please certify that the person completing this form is at least 18" or something like that. I assume that means that only a person that's either 18 or older can fill out the form and sign up, am I correct in this assumption? > Thanks, > Josh > > Sent from my Apex > > Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 22 07:44:31 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 03:44:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] another learning ally question Message-ID: <4dd8bee0.06a3e60a.3bb7.6bb6@mx.google.com> You know... Ic, you could be on to something. I just wonder... sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Ignasi Cambra So, I guess you're going to have to sign up under your mom or dad's name. Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Josh Gregory wrote: Hi all, On the ally sign-up page, there's a checkbox that says "please certify that the person completing this form is at least 18" or something like that. I assume that means that only a person that's either 18 or older can fill out the form and sign up, am I correct in this assumption? Thanks, Josh Sent from my Apex Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun May 22 14:34:01 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 10:34:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] another learning ally question In-Reply-To: <4dd91a33.81a5e60a.15cc.72c0@mx.google.com> References: <4dd91a33.81a5e60a.15cc.72c0@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <474A59B16EBA4F91BBCC0588CB4C82B8@OwnerPC> Yes, I'd suggest that; sign up under a parent's name and let them pay for it or if you are turning 18 very soon, just wait. But don't check the box saying you're 18 because that is lying. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 10:13 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] another learning ally question So, I guess you're going to have to sign up under your mom or dad's name. Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Josh Gregory wrote: Hi all, On the ally sign-up page, there's a checkbox that says "please certify that the person completing this form is at least 18" or something like that. I assume that means that only a person that's either 18 or older can fill out the form and sign up, am I correct in this assumption? Thanks, Josh Sent from my Apex Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sun May 22 14:39:43 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 10:39:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally In-Reply-To: References: <4dd88395.5069e50a.7aee.ffffa37c@mx.google.com> <27FB3EA790004B4EB47218851B08C93F@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <549A0E08-7ECB-475B-9EC5-06F08B19DFD1@gmail.com> Joshua: Learning Ally is good for people who need or want audio--I personally prefer learning by reading--actually reading the braille display/braille book but that's a matter of personal preference. On May 22, 2011, at 12:15 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Josh, why doesn't your Braille instructor sign you up? > I wouldn't recommend them, (Learning Ally,) anyway. > Get what you can, in Braille, and from www.bookshare.org, before going to them. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 5/21/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Josh, couldn't your parents or a family member sign up for you then? >> I didn't know you had to be 18 to get in. Wonder if that is a new thing. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Josh Gregory >> Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 11:31 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally >> >> Justin, there is no star on that box. But it doesn't matter >> CAUSE I cannot sign up anyway, I have to be 18. Come on, less >> than two months lol! Hey, thanks though! >> Josh >> >> sent from my Apex >> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Justin Young > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 23:22:33 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally >> >> Its been a while so I don't recall if there is a star near the >> Address >> box, but it is there for ordering CDs for a player which uses >> them. >> Justin >> >> On 5/21/11, Josh Gregory wrote: >> OK thanks! >> Josh >> >> sent from my Apex >> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 18:56:15 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally >> >> Required fields are marked with a star (*). >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Josh Gregory" > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 6:12 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally >> >> >> Hi all, >> I have a question about learning ally sign up. Is it necessary >> to put >> your address where you live in the form, or can you get buy >> without that >> info? My school uses this service and >> I really want to have an individual account so that I may >> utilize it as >> well. Thanks! >> Josh >> >> Sent from my Apex >> >> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin >> i%40wavecable.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >> for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >> 2%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40 >> gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >> 2%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sun May 22 14:41:54 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 10:41:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <39CCAA06-4C9D-4647-BC2D-196B8916FCEF@panix.com> References: <4dd6cccc.d8a3e60a.73f8.51eb@mx.google.com> <1ECFEE14-AA78-49DB-AB95-C24D01AB82DC@gmail.com> <39CCAA06-4C9D-4647-BC2D-196B8916FCEF@panix.com> Message-ID: <48E5DFF9-A96D-47CA-8A68-9036B495E751@gmail.com> Mike: How did that even come into being anyway? Why can't our note takers simply understand regular Nemeth? On May 22, 2011, at 12:31 AM, Mike Freeman wrote: > Computer Braille is an abomination -- but I use it. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 21, 2011, at 13:58, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" wrote: > >> *NO.* >> Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer Braille and Nemeth is the very reason that I started this thread. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:29 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> >> Well, >> could we perhaps fuze the standards for Nemith and computer braille? >> Make it just one code? >> >> >> >> On May 21, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >> >>> Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, such a goal is a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers are used that the code becomes unwieldy. >>> >>> Mike Freeman >>> sent from my iPhone >>> >>> >>> On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Chris, >>>> I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. In braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and letters depending on context. The unified system would theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to determine what a text says, making it more like print. >>>> >>>> The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is rather clunky and unwieldy. >>>> >>>> I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code would be better than the current systems used. But having one code does seem like it might simplify things. >>>> >>>> Just my thoughts, >>>> Greg >>>> >>>> On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Greg, >>>>> >>>>> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are different symbols for different operations in math than they are in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>>>> >>>>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Greg Aikens >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>>> >>>>> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools can be improved and better used in general though. >>>>> >>>>> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. >>>>> >>>>> -Greg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>> >>>>> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >>>>> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >>>>> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >>>>> Nemeth Code will stay around! >>>>> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >>>>> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >>>>> >>>>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>>>> To: NABS-L >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>>> >>>>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What >>>>> about the future of Nemeth? >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>>>> anix.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>>>> ydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >>>>> 62%40students.pccua.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>>>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun May 22 14:44:03 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 10:44:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally Message-ID: <4dd92147.8d8de50a.1b32.ffffaec8@mx.google.com> Yeah really! Isn't Learning Ally for students anyway? Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: wrote: OK thanks! Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" References: <4dd8a294.898de50a.351b.ffffa2bd@mx.google.com> <6906815B7D5E41FB8C339A90C6C0E96E@stanford.edu> Message-ID: 6 24 2345'234 135 13. On May 22, 2011, at 1:52 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > "! was ? "o "t I op5$ a brf file 9 notepad, & x look$ "s?+ l ?...I'll > stop now, sorry. > > On 5/21/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: >> Not quite. He was writing in the Grade 2 dot combinations in the Computer >> Braille context, hence the context part. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Josh Gregory" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:43 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> >> Me too, it was: I hate computer braille but I use it all the >> time, and he was typing in computer braille. >> Josh >> >> sent from my Apex >> Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:37:17 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Hahaha. If anyone did not get that, I can explain. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kirt Manwaring" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:23 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> >> I hate -put} brl b I use x all ! "t *smile* >> >> On 5/21/11, Josh Gregory wrote: >> Um... can you explain that one? Personally, I find it useable. >> Even though I hate having to type it into web sites. >> Josh >> >> sent from my Apex >> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Mike Freeman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:31:34 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Computer Braille is an abomination -- but I use it. >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 21, 2011, at 13:58, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" >> wrote: >> >> *NO.* >> Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer >> Braille and Nemeth is the very reason that I started this >> thread. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:29 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> >> Well, >> could we perhaps fuze the standards for Nemith and computer >> braille? >> Make it just one code? >> >> >> >> On May 21, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >> >> Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, >> such >> a goal is a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers >> are used that the code becomes unwieldy. >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens > wrote: >> >> Hi Chris, >> I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. >> In print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. >> In braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and >> letters depending on context. The unified system would >> theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to >> determine >> what a text says, making it more like print. >> >> The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to >> learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, >> and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is >> rather clunky and unwieldy. >> >> I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified >> code would be better than the current systems used. But having >> one code does seem like it might simplify things. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> Greg >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, ?굍is Nusbaum wrote: >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, >> don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for >> literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are >> different symbols for different operations in math than they are >> in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is >> affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities >> motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Greg Aikens > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the >> code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with >> literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended >> by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have >> not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so >> I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction >> here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools >> can be improved and better used in general though. >> >> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of >> unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which >> integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a >> challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new >> code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than >> mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. >> >> -Greg >> >> >> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> >> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >> Nemeth Code will stay around! >> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> >> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably >> the >> main >> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college >> Algebra. >> >> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >> To: NABS-L >> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in >> general. What >> about the future of Nemeth? >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >> ydude%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >> 62%40students.pccua.edu >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >> 40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >> 40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >> echjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin >> i%40wavecable.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >> for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >> 2%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin >> i%40wavecable.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >> 2%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >>> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Sun May 22 14:46:13 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 07:46:13 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? References: <4dd6cccc.d8a3e60a.73f8.51eb@mx.google.com><1ECFEE14-AA78-49DB-AB95-C24D01AB82DC@gmail.com><39CCAA06-4C9D-4647-BC2D-196B8916FCEF@panix.com> <48E5DFF9-A96D-47CA-8A68-9036B495E751@gmail.com> Message-ID: Because it's way too context based. Most of the dot combinations have more different meanings based on context than in Grade 1 or Grade 2. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 7:41 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Mike: How did that even come into being anyway? Why can't our note takers simply understand regular Nemeth? On May 22, 2011, at 12:31 AM, Mike Freeman wrote: > Computer Braille is an abomination -- but I use it. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 21, 2011, at 13:58, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" > wrote: > >> *NO.* >> Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer Braille and >> Nemeth is the very reason that I started this thread. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" >> >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:29 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> >> Well, >> could we perhaps fuze the standards for Nemith and computer braille? >> Make it just one code? >> >> >> >> On May 21, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >> >>> Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, such a goal >>> is a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers are used that >>> the code becomes unwieldy. >>> >>> Mike Freeman >>> sent from my iPhone >>> >>> >>> On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Chris, >>>> I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In >>>> print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. In >>>> braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and letters >>>> depending on context. The unified system would theoretically eliminate >>>> much of the need for context to determine what a text says, making it >>>> more like print. >>>> >>>> The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to learn, >>>> instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, and one for >>>> computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is rather clunky and >>>> unwieldy. >>>> >>>> I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code would >>>> be better than the current systems used. But having one code does seem >>>> like it might simplify things. >>>> >>>> Just my thoughts, >>>> Greg >>>> >>>> On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Greg, >>>>> >>>>> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, don't >>>>> get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for literary and >>>>> math print as far as I know. In print, there are different symbols >>>>> for different operations in math than they are in Nemeth. If anyone >>>>> is a Braille/print expert here or is affiliated with BANA, could you >>>>> confirm or clarify this for me? >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>>>> >>>>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Greg Aikens >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>>> >>>>> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the code, >>>>> trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with literary >>>>> braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended by a discussion >>>>> of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have not followed the >>>>> threads talking about the future of braille, so I probably don't >>>>> understand the context for Joshua's reaction here. I do think its >>>>> good to think critically about how tools can be improved and better >>>>> used in general though. >>>>> >>>>> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of unified >>>>> braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which integrates math and >>>>> literary braille. This seems like a challenging problem to solve, and >>>>> widespread adoption of a new code will take quite a while, but >>>>> fortunately better minds than mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started >>>>> working on this problem. >>>>> >>>>> -Greg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>> >>>>> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >>>>> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >>>>> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >>>>> Nemeth Code will stay around! >>>>> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >>>>> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >>>>> >>>>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>>> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >>>>> To: NABS-L >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >>>>> >>>>> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. >>>>> What >>>>> about the future of Nemeth? >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>>>> anix.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >>>>> ydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >>>>> 62%40students.pccua.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>>>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun May 22 14:51:19 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 10:51:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Message-ID: <4dd922fb.028de50a.4670.ffffaa60@mx.google.com> Well,=20sometimes=20you=20need=20it.=20=20By=20the=20way,=20did=20Dr.=20=20= Nemeth=20invent=20 computer=20Braille,=20too?=20If=20not,=20who=20did? =20Chris "A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abilit= ies=20motto) ---=20Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Mike=20Freeman=20=20wrote: =20*NO.* =20Problems=20with=20people=20trying=20to=20use=20a=20mixture=20of=20Comput= er=20=20 Braille=20and=20Nemeth=20is=20the=20very=20reason=20that=20I=20started=20th= is=20thread. =20-----=20Original=20Message=20-----=20From:=20"Jorge=20Paez"=20 =20 wrote: =20Hi=20Chris, =20I=20think=20the=20point=20you=20make=20is=20the=20idea=20behind=20a=20un= ified=20code.=20=20 In=20print,=20different=20symbols=20are=20used=20for=20math=20and=20for=20l= etters.=20=20 In=20braille,=20we=20use=20the=20same=20symbols=20to=20represent=20both=20m= ath=20and=20 letters=20depending=20on=20context.=20=20The=20unified=20system=20would=20 theoretically=20eliminate=20much=20of=20the=20need=20for=20context=20to=20d= etermine=20 what=20a=20text=20says,=20making=20it=20more=20like=20print. =20The=20appeal=20of=20a=20unified=20code=20is=20that=20there=20is=20only=20= one=20code=20to=20 learn,=20instead=20of=20learning=20one=20code=20for=20reading,=20one=20for= =20math,=20 and=20one=20for=20computer=20symbols.=20=20Computer=20braille,=20for=20exam= ple,=20is=20 rather=20clunky=20and=20unwieldy. =20I=20don't=20really=20have=20a=20strong=20opinion=20about=20whether=20a=20= unified=20 code=20would=20be=20better=20than=20the=20current=20systems=20used.=20=20Bu= t=20having=20 one=20code=20does=20seem=20like=20it=20might=20simplify=20things. =20Just=20my=20thoughts, =20Greg =20On=20May=2020,=202011,=20at=203:19=20PM,=20=C3=82ris=20Nusbaum=20wrote: =20Hi=20Greg, =20My=20only=20counterpoint=20to=20that=20suggestion=20(which=20is=20a=20go= od=20one,=20 don't=20get=20me=20wrong)=20is=20that=20there=20are=20different=20symbols=20= for=20 literary=20and=20math=20print=20as=20far=20as=20I=20know.=20=20In=20print,= =20there=20are=20 different=20symbols=20for=20different=20operations=20in=20math=20than=20the= y=20are=20 in=20Nemeth.=20=20If=20anyone=20is=20a=20Braille/print=20expert=20here=20or= =20is=20 affiliated=20with=20BANA,=20could=20you=20confirm=20or=20clarify=20this=20f= or=20me? =20Chris =20"A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abi= lities=20 motto) =20---=20Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20Greg=20Aikens=20=20wrote: =20I'm=20with=20Mike=20here.=20=20Nemeth=20is=20absolutely=20brilliant-prob= ably=20the=20 main =20reason=20(aside=20from=20awesome=20tutors)=20I=20was=20able=20to=20pass= =20college=20 Algebra. =20On=205/19/11,=20Mike=20Freeman=20=20wrote: =20It'll=20stay=20around=20if=20I=20have=20anything=20to=20do=20with=20it. =20Mike =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org=20 [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]=20On =20Behalf =20Of=20Nicole=20B.=20=20Torcolini=20at=20Home =20Sent:=20Thursday,=20May=2019,=202011=207:53=20PM =20To:=20NABS-L =20Subject:=20[nabs-l]=20The=20Future=20of=20Nemeth? =20Many=20people=20have=20been=20talking=20about=20the=20future=20of=20Brai= lle=20in=20 general.=20=20What =20about=20the=20future=20of=20Nemeth? =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p =20anix.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz =20ydude%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 =2062%40students.pccua.edu =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% =2040gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu =20sbaum%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert echjorgepaez%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun May 22 14:51:30 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 10:51:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] 2011 NFB National Convention Agenda now available! Message-ID: <4dd92398.028de50a.4670.ffffaa6d@mx.google.com> Great! Do you know if it's available on Newsline yet? Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diane" , ,"Rehabilitation Counselor Mailing List" ,"NFB of Colorado Discussion List" ,"National Association of Blind Students mailing list" , "'Mike Freeman'" , "Mike Freeman" ,"melissa Green" ,"Maryann Migliorelli" ,"Marty Rahn" ,"List for blind crafters and artists" , "Lisa Bonderson" ,"Krafters Korner" ,"Diabetes Talk for the Blind" ,"Darian Smith" ,"colorado students" ,"Colorado Center for the Blind mailing list" ,"Colorado Association of Blind Students List" ,"cheryl echevarria" , -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment Type: application/octet-stream Size: 312 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun May 22 15:10:28 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 11:10:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Message-ID: <4dd92779.a559e60a.368d.6ff5@mx.google.com> Huh? You did it on your BN and you didn't even do the backspace with j command for computer Braille? * Smile! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Josh Gregory wrote: Um... can you explain that one? Personally, I find it useable. Even though I hate having to type it into web sites. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Freeman wrote: *NO.* Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer Braille and Nemeth is the very reason that I started this thread. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" wrote: I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What about the future of Nemeth? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert echjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment Type: application/octet-stream Size: 311 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment Type: application/octet-stream Size: 312 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun May 22 15:18:15 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 11:18:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Message-ID: <4dd9294b.0ac6e60a.779b.7390@mx.google.com> Came=20across=20as=20literary=20numbers=20on=20my=20notetaker's=20Braille=20= display. =20Chris "A=20loss=20of=20sight,=20never=20a=20loss=20of=20vision!"=20(Camp=20Abilit= ies=20motto) ---=20Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Jorge=20Paez=20=20wrote: =20Not=20quite.=20=20He=20was=20writing=20in=20the=20Grade=202=20dot=20comb= inations=20in=20 the=20Computer =20Braille=20context,=20hence=20the=20context=20part. =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Josh=20Gregory"=20=20wrote: =20Um...=20=20can=20you=20explain=20that=20one?=20Personally,=20I=20find=20= it=20useable. =20Even=20though=20I=20hate=20having=20to=20type=20it=20into=20web=20sites.= =20Josh =20sent=20from=20my=20Apex =20Email:=20joshkart12 at gmail.com =20=20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20Mike=20Freeman=20=20wrote: =20=20*NO.* =20=20Problems=20with=20people=20trying=20to=20use=20a=20mixture=20of=20Com= puter =20Braille=20and=20Nemeth=20is=20the=20very=20reason=20that=20I=20started=20= this =20thread. =20=20-----=20Original=20Message=20-----=20From:=20"Jorge=20Paez" =20=20wrote= : =20=20I'm=20with=20Mike=20here.=20=20Nemeth=20is=20absolutely=20brilliant-p= robably =20the =20main =20=20reason=20(aside=20from=20awesome=20tutors)=20I=20was=20able=20to=20pa= ss=20college =20Algebra. =20=20On=205/19/11,=20Mike=20Freeman=20=20wrote: =20=20It'll=20stay=20around=20if=20I=20have=20anything=20to=20do=20with=20i= t. =20=20Mike =20=20-----Original=20Message----- =20=20From:=20nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org =20[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]=20On =20=20Behalf =20=20Of=20Nicole=20B.=20=20Torcolini=20at=20Home =20=20Sent:=20Thursday,=20May=2019,=202011=207:53=20PM =20=20To:=20NABS-L =20=20Subject:=20[nabs-l]=20The=20Future=20of=20Nemeth? =20=20Many=20people=20have=20been=20talking=20about=20the=20future=20of=20B= raille=20in =20general.=20=20What =20=20about=20the=20future=20of=20Nemeth? =20=20_______________________________________________ =20=20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20=20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20=20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20=20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your= =20account =20info=20for =20=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p =20=20anix.com =20=20_______________________________________________ =20=20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20=20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20=20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20=20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your= =20account =20info=20for =20=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz =20=20ydude%40gmail.com =20=20_______________________________________________ =20=20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20=20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20=20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org 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=20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount =20info =20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 =202%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount =20info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin =20i%40wavecable.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info =20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 =202%40gmail.com =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert echjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From k7uij at panix.com Sun May 22 16:31:43 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 09:31:43 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] another learning ally question In-Reply-To: References: <4dd87326.8d8de50a.1b32.ffffa4ce@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <06F3232F-AAAD-4D07-801E-08333B2479D2@panix.com> He could lose the privilege of using the service forever if found out. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 22, 2011, at 0:37, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > Hmmm... Why don't you just check the checkbox and forget about it? I mean...really... > On May 21, 2011, at 10:21 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: > >> Hi all, >> On the ally sign-up page, there's a checkbox that says "please certify that the person completing this form is at least 18" or something like that. I assume that means that only a person that's either 18 or older can fill out the form and sign up, am I correct in this assumption? >> Thanks, >> Josh >> >> Sent from my Apex >> >> Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From mcikeyc at aol.com Sun May 22 16:56:02 2011 From: mcikeyc at aol.com (Michelle Clark) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 12:56:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] BISM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201105221656.p4MGu3OO001271@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> Just a note to comment on what someone has said here regarding what BISM in Maryland stands for. I also attended BISM. When I attended, BISM stood for Blind Industries and Services of Maryland. I am not certain that that has changed. Michelle From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 22 16:56:43 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 12:56:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Message-ID: <4dd9404d.52a3e60a.620f.73d0@mx.google.com> Jorge,=20uh...=20=20I'd=20say=20that=20was=20bets=20for=20the=20Preekness=20= (haha=20I=20 cannot=20even=20spell=20it)=20but=20I=20don't=20think=20that's=20how=20they= =20go.=20=20If=20 you=20want=20I'll=20look=20it=20up=20and=20write=20you=20offlist. Josh sent=20from=20my=20Apex Email:=20joshkart12 at gmail.com =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Jorge=20Paez=20=20wrote: =20Not=20quite.=20=20He=20was=20writing=20in=20the=20Grade=202=20dot=20comb= inations=20in=20 the=20Computer =20Braille=20context,=20hence=20the=20context=20part. =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Josh=20Gregory"=20=20wrote: =20Um...=20=20can=20you=20explain=20that=20one?=20Personally,=20I=20find=20= it=20useable. =20Even=20though=20I=20hate=20having=20to=20type=20it=20into=20web=20sites.= =20Josh =20sent=20from=20my=20Apex =20Email:=20joshkart12 at gmail.com =20=20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20Mike=20Freeman=20=20wrote: =20=20*NO.* =20=20Problems=20with=20people=20trying=20to=20use=20a=20mixture=20of=20Com= puter =20Braille=20and=20Nemeth=20is=20the=20very=20reason=20that=20I=20started=20= this =20thread. =20=20-----=20Original=20Message=20-----=20From:=20"Jorge=20Paez" =20=20wrote= : =20=20I'm=20with=20Mike=20here.=20=20Nemeth=20is=20absolutely=20brilliant-p= robably =20the =20main =20=20reason=20(aside=20from=20awesome=20tutors)=20I=20was=20able=20to=20pa= ss=20college =20Algebra. =20=20On=205/19/11,=20Mike=20Freeman=20=20wrote: =20=20It'll=20stay=20around=20if=20I=20have=20anything=20to=20do=20with=20i= t. =20=20Mike =20=20-----Original=20Message----- =20=20From:=20nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org =20[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]=20On =20=20Behalf =20=20Of=20Nicole=20B.=20=20Torcolini=20at=20Home =20=20Sent:=20Thursday,=20May=2019,=202011=207:53=20PM =20=20To:=20NABS-L =20=20Subject:=20[nabs-l]=20The=20Future=20of=20Nemeth? =20=20Many=20people=20have=20been=20talking=20about=20the=20future=20of=20B= raille=20in =20general.=20=20What =20=20about=20the=20future=20of=20Nemeth? =20=20_______________________________________________ =20=20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20=20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20=20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org 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=20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert echjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 22 16:56:47 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 12:56:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] another learning ally question Message-ID: <4dd94050.52a3e60a.620f.73d3@mx.google.com> Yeah I guess... or have them just do it, I'm not gonna forge anything, not that I'm saying that's what you're implying. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Nusbaum wrote: Hi all, On the ally sign-up page, there's a checkbox that says "please certify that the person completing this form is at least 18" or something like that. I assume that means that only a person that's either 18 or older can fill out the form and sign up, am I correct in this assumption? Thanks, Josh Sent from my Apex Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sun May 22 14:54:40 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 10:54:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <4dd922fb.028de50a.4670.ffffaa60@mx.google.com> References: <4dd922fb.028de50a.4670.ffffaa60@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I don't think so. On May 22, 2011, at 10:51 AM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Well, sometimes you need it. By the way, did Dr. Nemeth invent computer Braille, too? If not, who did? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Freeman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:31:34 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Computer Braille is an abomination -- but I use it. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 21, 2011, at 13:58, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" wrote: > > *NO.* > Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer Braille and Nemeth is the very reason that I started this thread. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:29 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > Well, > could we perhaps fuze the standards for Nemith and computer braille? > Make it just one code? > > > > On May 21, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > > Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, such a goal is a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers are used that the code becomes unwieldy. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: > > Hi Chris, > I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. In braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and letters depending on context. The unified system would theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to determine what a text says, making it more like print. > > The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is rather clunky and unwieldy. > > I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code would be better than the current systems used. But having one code does seem like it might simplify things. > > Just my thoughts, > Greg > > On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, Âris Nusbaum wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are different symbols for different operations in math than they are in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Greg Aikens To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools can be improved and better used in general though. > > As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. > > -Greg > > > On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. > I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being > changed, or it becoming obsilete. > Nemeth Code will stay around! > I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! > Blessings, Joshua > > > On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main > reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. > > On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM > To: NABS-L > Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What > about the future of Nemeth? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 > 62%40students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sun May 22 17:26:27 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 10:26:27 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Today!-NABS Membership Committee Presents: A Call on Technology! Message-ID: Hello again NABS (from your Membership Committee): It goes beep, bop, boop, it clicks, it hums, and today, it even talks to you. It's all around us, and it's technology. We use it every day to keep in touch with friends and family, do assignments for school, and all sorts of other things. This month's conference call will focus on devices we can use and the methods by which we can use them for school, home, on the road, and even work. In no particular order, we will have Dale Sczweck (pronounced Shweck) speaking to the recreational side of technology, our own Liz Bottner on the academic side of it all, and Tony Olivero on the professional/work side of things. Here's the info because we know you can't wait. Who: The NABS Membership Committee, of course What: Conference call on technology use at school, work, and everywhere else. When: Sunday May 22 at 7:00 PM ET. Where: (712) 775-7100, followed by the pass code 257963. Why: Because wherever you are, you can use technology to your advantage, and we can get you started in how to do that. We look forward to a great conversation, great insight, and neat strategies from our speakers and you. So why not join us? You can really learn a lot. See you there! Sincerely, Your wonderful NABS Membership Committee -- Darian Smith Chair- membership committee National Association of Blind Students "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 22 17:41:53 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 13:41:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Message-ID: <4dd94ae2.5069e50a.7aee.ffffad8b@mx.google.com> Chris, No, you must press backspace with J before doing this. Otherwise, your typing will appear in grade 2. HTH, Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Nusbaum wrote: Um... can you explain that one? Personally, I find it useable. Even though I hate having to type it into web sites. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Freeman wrote: *NO.* Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer Braille and Nemeth is the very reason that I started this thread. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" wrote: I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What about the future of Nemeth? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert echjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sun May 22 17:26:47 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 13:26:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <4dd92779.a559e60a.368d.6ff5@mx.google.com> References: <4dd92779.a559e60a.368d.6ff5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4D5B114A-2A96-4227-92F2-11FB094F7035@gmail.com> No, I was actually typing it out on the computer keyboard. On May 22, 2011, at 11:10 AM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Huh? You did it on your BN and you didn't even do the backspace with j command for computer Braille? * Smile! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Josh Gregory To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 22 May 2011 02:11:56 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Yes, like this: hi1 h{ y8 ,?is is an example ( h{ x'd look if I > typ$ l ?4 > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 23:03:52 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > If you set the Grade of in put to Computer Braille, and then > write in Grade > 2, you will get the same results. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Josh Gregory" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:54 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > Explain... > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:48:22 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Not quite. He was writing in the Grade 2 dot combinations in the > Computer > Braille context, hence the context part. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Josh Gregory" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:43 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > Me too, it was: I hate computer braille but I use it all the > time, and he was typing in computer braille. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:37:17 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Hahaha. If anyone did not get that, I can explain. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:23 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > I hate -put} brl b I use x all ! "t *smile* > > On 5/21/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > Um... can you explain that one? Personally, I find it useable. > Even though I hate having to type it into web sites. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Freeman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:31:34 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Computer Braille is an abomination -- but I use it. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 21, 2011, at 13:58, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" > wrote: > > *NO.* > Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer > Braille and Nemeth is the very reason that I started this > thread. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:29 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > Well, > could we perhaps fuze the standards for Nemith and computer > braille? > Make it just one code? > > > > On May 21, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > > Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, > such > a goal is a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers > are used that the code becomes unwieldy. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: > > Hi Chris, > I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. > In print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. > In braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and > letters depending on context. The unified system would > theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to > determine > what a text says, making it more like print. > > The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to > learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, > and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is > rather clunky and unwieldy. > > I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified > code would be better than the current systems used. But having > one code does seem like it might simplify things. > > Just my thoughts, > Greg > > On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, ??is Nusbaum wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, > don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for > literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are > different symbols for different operations in math than they are > in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is > affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities > motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Greg Aikens To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the > code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with > literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended > by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have > not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so > I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction > here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools > can be improved and better used in general though. > > As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of > unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which > integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a > challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new > code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than > mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. > > -Greg > > > On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. > I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being > changed, or it becoming obsilete. > Nemeth Code will stay around! > I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! > Blessings, Joshua > > > On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably > the > main > reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college > Algebra. > > On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM > To: NABS-L > Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in > general. What > about the future of Nemeth? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 > 62%40students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > --------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > --------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 22 17:51:20 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 13:51:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] BISM Message-ID: <4dd94d19.1192e60a.6bfb.74d2@mx.google.com> Michelle, You attended BISM here in MD? Cool! No, it has not changed. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michelle Clark" References: <4dd9294b.0ac6e60a.779b.7390@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <3FB8B1F8-D24E-4ACA-911E-0833C2BFA4B8@gmail.com> I meant it that way. I literally replied in braille, just put the numbers together. Instead of computer code I wrote in actual braille but putting numbers = to stand for their corresponding dot conbinations. On May 22, 2011, at 11:18 AM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Came across as literary numbers on my notetaker's Braille display. >=20 > Chris >=20 > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >=20 > --- Sent from my BrailleNote >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list = Date sent: Sun, 22 May 2011 10:46:09 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >=20 > 6 24 2345'234 135 13. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On May 22, 2011, at 1:52 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >=20 > "! was ? "o "t I op5$ a brf file 9 notepad, & x look$ "s?+ l ?...I'll > stop now, sorry. >=20 > On 5/21/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home = wrote: > Not quite. He was writing in the Grade 2 dot combinations in the = Computer > Braille context, hence the context part. >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Josh Gregory" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:43 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >=20 >=20 > Me too, it was: I hate computer braille but I use it all the > time, and he was typing in computer braille. > Josh >=20 > sent from my Apex > Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:37:17 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >=20 > Hahaha. If anyone did not get that, I can explain. >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:23 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >=20 >=20 > I hate -put} brl b I use x all ! "t *smile* >=20 > On 5/21/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > Um... can you explain that one? Personally, I find it useable. > Even though I hate having to type it into web sites. > Josh >=20 > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Freeman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:31:34 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >=20 > Computer Braille is an abomination -- but I use it. >=20 > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone >=20 >=20 > On May 21, 2011, at 13:58, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" > wrote: >=20 > *NO.* > Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer > Braille and Nemeth is the very reason that I started this > thread. >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:29 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >=20 >=20 > Well, > could we perhaps fuze the standards for Nemith and computer > braille? > Make it just one code? >=20 >=20 >=20 > On May 21, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >=20 > Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, > such > a goal is a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers > are used that the code becomes unwieldy. >=20 > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone >=20 >=20 > On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: >=20 > Hi Chris, > I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. > In print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. > In braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and > letters depending on context. The unified system would > theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to > determine > what a text says, making it more like print. >=20 > The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to > learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, > and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is > rather clunky and unwieldy. >=20 > I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified > code would be better than the current systems used. But having > one code does seem like it might simplify things. >=20 > Just my thoughts, > Greg >=20 > On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, ?=82ris Nusbaum wrote: >=20 > Hi Greg, >=20 > My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, > don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for > literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are > different symbols for different operations in math than they are > in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is > affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? >=20 > Chris >=20 > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities > motto) >=20 > --- Sent from my BrailleNote >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Greg Aikens To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >=20 > Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the > code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with > literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended > by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have > not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so > I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction > here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools > can be improved and better used in general though. >=20 > As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of > unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which > integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a > challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new > code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than > mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. >=20 > -Greg >=20 >=20 > On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >=20 > i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. > I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being > changed, or it becoming obsilete. > Nemeth Code will stay around! > I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! > Blessings, Joshua >=20 >=20 > On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably > the > main > reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college > Algebra. >=20 > On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >=20 > Mike >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM > To: NABS-L > Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >=20 > Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in > general. What > about the future of Nemeth? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: >=20 >=20 > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: >=20 >=20 > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: >=20 >=20 > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 > 62%40students.pccua.edu >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: >=20 >=20 > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: >=20 >=20 > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: >=20 >=20 > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: >=20 >=20 > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: >=20 >=20 > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: >=20 >=20 > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: >=20 >=20 > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for nabs-l: >=20 > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: >=20 > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > --------------- >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for = nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for = nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for = nabs-l: > = http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgep= aez%40gmail.com From k7uij at panix.com Sun May 22 17:53:46 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 10:53:46 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] BISM In-Reply-To: <201105221656.p4MGu3OO001271@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> References: <201105221656.p4MGu3OO001271@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <354F1CDD-EB2C-452C-A162-E3690C841B58@panix.com> It still does. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 22, 2011, at 9:56, "Michelle Clark" wrote: > Just a note to comment on what someone has said here regarding what BISM in > Maryland stands for. I also attended BISM. When I attended, BISM stood for > Blind Industries and Services of Maryland. I am not certain that that has > changed. > > Michelle > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From jackson.dezman at gmail.com Sun May 22 18:17:22 2011 From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 13:17:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <4dd922fb.028de50a.4670.ffffaa60@mx.google.com> References: <4dd922fb.028de50a.4670.ffffaa60@mx.google.com> Message-ID: The Computer Braille Code (CBC) was developed by a guy by the name of Tim Cranmer who incidentally also developed the Cranmer abacus. Nemeth and CBC definitely have a lot of overlap. For instance, in both, the numbers are dropped and symbols of operation such as plus and minus are the same. I'm quite certain Dr. Nemeth would be glad to see an improved unified code. In fact, the proposed current unified Braille code bears his name, the Nemeth Uniform Braille System. Lastly, from the beginning, Dr. Nemeth and Cranmer have advocated for a unified system while developing their respective codes. Best, Dezman 2011/5/22 Chris Nusbaum > Well, sometimes you need it. By the way, did Dr. Nemeth invent computer > Braille, too? If not, who did? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Freeman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:31:34 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Computer Braille is an abomination -- but I use it. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 21, 2011, at 13:58, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" < > ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote: > > *NO.* > Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer Braille and > Nemeth is the very reason that I started this thread. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" < > computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" < > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:29 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > Well, > could we perhaps fuze the standards for Nemith and computer braille? > Make it just one code? > > > > On May 21, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > > Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, such a goal is > a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers are used that the code > becomes unwieldy. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: > > Hi Chris, > I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In print, > different symbols are used for math and for letters. In braille, we use the > same symbols to represent both math and letters depending on context. The > unified system would theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to > determine what a text says, making it more like print. > > The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to learn, > instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, and one for computer > symbols. Computer braille, for example, is rather clunky and unwieldy. > > I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code would be > better than the current systems used. But having one code does seem like it > might simplify things. > > Just my thoughts, > Greg > > On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, 횂ris Nusbaum wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, don't get me > wrong) is that there are different symbols for literary and math print as > far as I know. In print, there are different symbols for different > operations in math than they are in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print > expert here or is affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this > for me? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Greg Aikens To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the code, trying > to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with literary braille. I would be > surprised if he would be offended by a discussion of the future of his code. > Admittedly, I have not followed the threads talking about the future of > braille, so I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction > here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools can be > improved and better used in general though. > > As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of unified > braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which integrates math and > literary braille. This seems like a challenging problem to solve, and > widespread adoption of a new code will take quite a while, but fortunately > better minds than mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this > problem. > > -Greg > > > On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. > I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being > changed, or it becoming obsilete. > Nemeth Code will stay around! > I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! > Blessings, Joshua > > > On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main > reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. > > On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM > To: NABS-L > Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What > about the future of Nemeth? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 > 62%40students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > > -- Dezman Jackson, NOMC, NCLB From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Sun May 22 19:23:28 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 15:23:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Random Question In-Reply-To: <4dd83e10.8a4ee50a.7631.ffffa712@mx.google.com> References: <4dd83e10.8a4ee50a.7631.ffffa712@mx.google.com> Message-ID: In my opinion, though, following or not following the horse races (which I do not) has nothing to do with the question. A simple dictionary search for 'Preakness' brought up a simple definition that the Preakness is a racehorse (I think) and that is is pronounced preek-nis. Ok, so that's what I offered here. *shrug* When soemthing is terribly mispronounced by JAWS, that is usually the route I go, since dictionaries know what they are talking about. The one I use: Dictionary.com...now that I've got it figured out. On 5/21/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Yep! It's held at Pimlico Racecourse in Baltimore. Jorge, you > can write me offlist if you have any questions about it, since I > live in Maryland, near where the race takes place. As you can > imagine, it's a pretty exciting time here! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 15:00:16 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Random Question > > Jorge, > It's a horse race-part of the tripple crown...happens in > Maryland, > that's all I know...oh and it's on tonight > > On 5/21/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > What in the world does that word mean anyway? > > > On May 21, 2011, at 1:03 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: > > Ah yeah that's tonight, isn't it... Nicole, What about > "preekness?" > > Josh > > sent from my Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "NABS-L" Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 09:02:36 -0700 > Subject: [nabs-l] Random Question > > Has anyone found a misspelling to make Jaws correctly pronounce > Preakness? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun May 22 19:37:08 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 15:37:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Message-ID: <4dd965f9.1192e60a.427d.7269@mx.google.com> Oh! I just decoded it! That's not even a word. Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez wrote: Not quite. He was writing in the Grade 2 dot combinations in the Computer Braille context, hence the context part. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh Gregory" wrote: Um... can you explain that one? Personally, I find it useable. Even though I hate having to type it into web sites. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Freeman wrote: *NO.* Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer Braille and Nemeth is the very reason that I started this thread. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" wrote: I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. What about the future of Nemeth? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org 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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin i%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert echjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 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Name: attachment Type: application/octet-stream Size: 312 bytes Desc: not available URL: From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sun May 22 19:40:30 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 15:40:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Random Question In-Reply-To: References: <4dd83e10.8a4ee50a.7631.ffffa712@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <11F00073-EAD5-450A-97BD-420FFE8719AB@gmail.com> Oh. Handy. I looked it up in my Braillenote but my BN didn't know what it was. On May 22, 2011, at 3:23 PM, Jewel wrote: > In my opinion, though, following or not following the horse races > (which I do not) has nothing to do with the question. A simple > dictionary search for 'Preakness' brought up a simple definition that > the Preakness is a racehorse (I think) and that is is pronounced > preek-nis. Ok, so that's what I offered here. *shrug* When soemthing > is terribly mispronounced by JAWS, that is usually the route I go, > since dictionaries know what they are talking about. The one I use: > Dictionary.com...now that I've got it figured out. > > On 5/21/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> Yep! It's held at Pimlico Racecourse in Baltimore. Jorge, you >> can write me offlist if you have any questions about it, since I >> live in Maryland, near where the race takes place. As you can >> imagine, it's a pretty exciting time here! >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kirt Manwaring > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 15:00:16 -0600 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Random Question >> >> Jorge, >> It's a horse race-part of the tripple crown...happens in >> Maryland, >> that's all I know...oh and it's on tonight >> >> On 5/21/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> What in the world does that word mean anyway? >> >> >> On May 21, 2011, at 1:03 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: >> >> Ah yeah that's tonight, isn't it... Nicole, What about >> "preekness?" >> >> Josh >> >> sent from my Apex >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" > To: "NABS-L" > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 09:02:36 -0700 >> Subject: [nabs-l] Random Question >> >> Has anyone found a misspelling to make Jaws correctly pronounce >> Preakness? >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >> 2%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >> echjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >> ydude%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 22 19:52:27 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 15:52:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Random Question Message-ID: <4dd9697c.97abe60a.4d62.757b@mx.google.com> Jorge, if you would like, I'll write you offlist to explain. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez wrote: Yep! It's held at Pimlico Racecourse in Baltimore. Jorge, you can write me offlist if you have any questions about it, since I live in Maryland, near where the race takes place. As you can imagine, it's a pretty exciting time here! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: What in the world does that word mean anyway? On May 21, 2011, at 1:03 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: Ah yeah that's tonight, isn't it... Nicole, What about "preekness?" Josh sent from my Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" References: <4dd965f9.1192e60a.427d.7269@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <0D67B855-AE3D-46F6-AB7B-BFDB8A76E076@gmail.com> That's a full sentence Chris. Dot 6 by itself is capital, the other numbers are letters. On May 22, 2011, at 3:37 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Oh! I just decoded it! That's not even a word. > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 22 May 2011 12:49:31 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > I meant it that way. > I literally replied in braille, just put the numbers together. > > Instead of computer code I wrote in actual braille but putting numbers to stand for their corresponding dot conbinations. > > > > On May 22, 2011, at 11:18 AM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > > Came across as literary numbers on my notetaker's Braille display. > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 22 May 2011 10:46:09 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > 6 24 2345'234 135 13. > > > > > > On May 22, 2011, at 1:52 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > > "! was ? "o "t I op5$ a brf file 9 notepad, & x look$ "s?+ l ?...I'll > stop now, sorry. > > On 5/21/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > Not quite. He was writing in the Grade 2 dot combinations in the Computer > Braille context, hence the context part. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Josh Gregory" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:43 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > Me too, it was: I hate computer braille but I use it all the > time, and he was typing in computer braille. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:37:17 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Hahaha. If anyone did not get that, I can explain. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:23 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > I hate -put} brl b I use x all ! "t *smile* > > On 5/21/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > Um... can you explain that one? Personally, I find it useable. > Even though I hate having to type it into web sites. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Freeman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:31:34 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Computer Braille is an abomination -- but I use it. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 21, 2011, at 13:58, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" > wrote: > > *NO.* > Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer > Braille and Nemeth is the very reason that I started this > thread. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:29 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > Well, > could we perhaps fuze the standards for Nemith and computer > braille? > Make it just one code? > > > > On May 21, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > > Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, > such > a goal is a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers > are used that the code becomes unwieldy. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: > > Hi Chris, > I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. > In print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. > In braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and > letters depending on context. The unified system would > theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to > determine > what a text says, making it more like print. > > The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to > learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, > and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is > rather clunky and unwieldy. > > I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified > code would be better than the current systems used. But having > one code does seem like it might simplify things. > > Just my thoughts, > Greg > > On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, ??is Nusbaum wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, > don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for > literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are > different symbols for different operations in math than they are > in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is > affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities > motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Greg Aikens To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the > code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with > literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended > by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have > not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so > I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction > here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools > can be improved and better used in general though. > > As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of > unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which > integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a > challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new > code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than > mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. > > -Greg > > > On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. > I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being > changed, or it becoming obsilete. > Nemeth Code will stay around! > I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! > Blessings, Joshua > > > On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably > the > main > reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college > Algebra. > > On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM > To: NABS-L > Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in > general. What > about the future of Nemeth? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 > 62%40students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > --------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From jp100 at earthlink.net Sun May 22 20:48:03 2011 From: jp100 at earthlink.net (Jim) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 13:48:03 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <0D67B855-AE3D-46F6-AB7B-BFDB8A76E076@gmail.com> References: <4dd965f9.1192e60a.427d.7269@mx.google.com> <0D67B855-AE3D-46F6-AB7B-BFDB8A76E076@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000901cc18c1$8c4f3e20$a4edba60$@net> OK guys. I am wondering if some of this stuff could be done amongst the two or three of you, as it seems like we've strayed from this topic or at least allowed it to go way out there. Most of my email the past two days has been related to this thread and sent by mainly three people. I liked the original discussion but it's seemed to go down hill. Thanks. Jim -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jorge Paez Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 1:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? That's a full sentence Chris. Dot 6 by itself is capital, the other numbers are letters. On May 22, 2011, at 3:37 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Oh! I just decoded it! That's not even a word. > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 22 May 2011 12:49:31 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > I meant it that way. > I literally replied in braille, just put the numbers together. > > Instead of computer code I wrote in actual braille but putting numbers to stand for their corresponding dot conbinations. > > > > On May 22, 2011, at 11:18 AM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > > Came across as literary numbers on my notetaker's Braille display. > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 22 May 2011 10:46:09 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > 6 24 2345'234 135 13. > > > > > > On May 22, 2011, at 1:52 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > > "! was ? "o "t I op5$ a brf file 9 notepad, & x look$ "s?+ l ?...I'll > stop now, sorry. > > On 5/21/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > Not quite. He was writing in the Grade 2 dot combinations in the Computer > Braille context, hence the context part. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Josh Gregory" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:43 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > Me too, it was: I hate computer braille but I use it all the > time, and he was typing in computer braille. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:37:17 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Hahaha. If anyone did not get that, I can explain. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:23 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > I hate -put} brl b I use x all ! "t *smile* > > On 5/21/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > Um... can you explain that one? Personally, I find it useable. > Even though I hate having to type it into web sites. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Freeman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:31:34 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Computer Braille is an abomination -- but I use it. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 21, 2011, at 13:58, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" > wrote: > > *NO.* > Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer > Braille and Nemeth is the very reason that I started this > thread. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:29 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > > Well, > could we perhaps fuze the standards for Nemith and computer > braille? > Make it just one code? > > > > On May 21, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > > Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, > such > a goal is a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers > are used that the code becomes unwieldy. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: > > Hi Chris, > I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. > In print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. > In braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and > letters depending on context. The unified system would > theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to > determine > what a text says, making it more like print. > > The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to > learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, > and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is > rather clunky and unwieldy. > > I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified > code would be better than the current systems used. But having > one code does seem like it might simplify things. > > Just my thoughts, > Greg > > On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, ??is Nusbaum wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, > don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for > literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are > different symbols for different operations in math than they are > in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is > affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities > motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Greg Aikens To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the > code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with > literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended > by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have > not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so > I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction > here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools > can be improved and better used in general though. > > As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of > unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which > integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a > challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new > code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than > mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. > > -Greg > > > On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. > I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being > changed, or it becoming obsilete. > Nemeth Code will stay around! > I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! > Blessings, Joshua > > > On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably > the > main > reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college > Algebra. > > On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM > To: NABS-L > Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > > Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in > general. What > about the future of Nemeth? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 > 62%40students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > --------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin > i%40wavecable.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepae z%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jp100%40earthlink.ne t From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Sun May 22 20:54:35 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 13:54:35 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? References: <4dd922fb.028de50a.4670.ffffaa60@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <96B786C56C8C4863B7D9E5A63FB3EF98@stanford.edu> No, they do not. The only overlap is letters, dropped numbers, punctuation, and a few (probably less than ten) math symbols. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dezman Jackson" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? > The Computer Braille Code (CBC) was developed by a guy by the name of Tim > Cranmer who incidentally also developed the Cranmer abacus. Nemeth and > CBC > definitely have a lot of overlap. For instance, in both, the numbers are > dropped and symbols of operation such as plus and minus are the same. > > I'm quite certain Dr. Nemeth would be glad to see an improved unified > code. > In fact, the proposed current unified Braille code bears his name, the > Nemeth Uniform Braille System. Lastly, from the beginning, Dr. Nemeth and > Cranmer have advocated for a unified system while developing their > respective codes. > > Best, > Dezman > > 2011/5/22 Chris Nusbaum > >> Well, sometimes you need it. By the way, did Dr. Nemeth invent computer >> Braille, too? If not, who did? >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Mike Freeman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:31:34 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Computer Braille is an abomination -- but I use it. >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 21, 2011, at 13:58, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" < >> ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote: >> >> *NO.* >> Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer Braille and >> Nemeth is the very reason that I started this thread. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" < >> computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" < >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:29 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> >> Well, >> could we perhaps fuze the standards for Nemith and computer braille? >> Make it just one code? >> >> >> >> On May 21, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >> >> Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, such a goal >> is >> a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers are used that the >> code >> becomes unwieldy. >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: >> >> Hi Chris, >> I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. In print, >> different symbols are used for math and for letters. In braille, we use >> the >> same symbols to represent both math and letters depending on context. >> The >> unified system would theoretically eliminate much of the need for context >> to >> determine what a text says, making it more like print. >> >> The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to learn, >> instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, and one for >> computer >> symbols. Computer braille, for example, is rather clunky and unwieldy. >> >> I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified code would >> be >> better than the current systems used. But having one code does seem like >> it >> might simplify things. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> Greg >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, 횂ris Nusbaum wrote: >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, don't get >> me >> wrong) is that there are different symbols for literary and math print as >> far as I know. In print, there are different symbols for different >> operations in math than they are in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print >> expert here or is affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this >> for me? >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Greg Aikens > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the code, trying >> to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with literary braille. I would >> be >> surprised if he would be offended by a discussion of the future of his >> code. >> Admittedly, I have not followed the threads talking about the future of >> braille, so I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction >> here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools can be >> improved and better used in general though. >> >> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of unified >> braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which integrates math and >> literary braille. This seems like a challenging problem to solve, and >> widespread adoption of a new code will take quite a while, but >> fortunately >> better minds than mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this >> problem. >> >> -Greg >> >> >> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> >> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >> Nemeth Code will stay around! >> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> >> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably the main >> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college Algebra. >> >> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >> To: NABS-L >> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in general. >> What >> about the future of Nemeth? >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >> ydude%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >> 62%40students.pccua.edu >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >> 40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >> 40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >> echjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin >> i%40wavecable.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com >> >> > > > -- > Dezman Jackson, NOMC, NCLB > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com > From th404 at comcast.net Sun May 22 21:26:19 2011 From: th404 at comcast.net (Tina Hansen) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 14:26:19 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Archives of Membership Conference Call Message-ID: <1742A0F268EF4529910337F16198F9C3@tinad85eb5cc31> Are there any plans to archive this afternoon's conference call, just in case someone missed it? Thanks. From liziswhatis at hotmail.com Sun May 22 21:50:23 2011 From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 16:50:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Archives of Membership Conference Call In-Reply-To: <1742A0F268EF4529910337F16198F9C3@tinad85eb5cc31> References: <1742A0F268EF4529910337F16198F9C3@tinad85eb5cc31> Message-ID: Hi Tina and all, To the best of my knowledge, yes, the call will be recorded and archived. Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tina Hansen Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 4:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Archives of Membership Conference Call Are there any plans to archive this afternoon's conference call, just in case someone missed it? Thanks. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai l.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sun May 22 22:25:42 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 15:25:42 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Archives of Membership Conference Call In-Reply-To: References: <1742A0F268EF4529910337F16198F9C3@tinad85eb5cc31> Message-ID: Prevenitive medicine - making the call insures you don't need an archive! (that is, if you can make it) take care, and have a nice day! On 5/22/11, Liz Bottner wrote: > Hi Tina and all, > > To the best of my knowledge, yes, the call will be recorded and archived. > > Liz Bottner > Guiding Eyes Graduate Council > GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 > e-mail: > liziswhatis at hotmail.com > Visit my LiveJournal: > http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com > Follow me on Twitter: > http://twitter.com/lizbot > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Tina Hansen > Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 4:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Archives of Membership Conference Call > > Are there any plans to archive this afternoon's conference call, just in > case someone missed it? Thanks. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sun May 22 22:41:14 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 18:41:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Archives of Membership Conference Call In-Reply-To: References: <1742A0F268EF4529910337F16198F9C3@tinad85eb5cc31> Message-ID: <7745176E-1390-4840-B871-FEB7DD159798@gmail.com> Is this call going to be streamed? On May 22, 2011, at 6:25 PM, Darian Smith wrote: > Prevenitive medicine - making the call insures you don't need an > archive! (that is, if you can make it) > take care, and have a nice day! > > On 5/22/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >> Hi Tina and all, >> >> To the best of my knowledge, yes, the call will be recorded and archived. >> >> Liz Bottner >> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >> e-mail: >> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >> Visit my LiveJournal: >> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >> Follow me on Twitter: >> http://twitter.com/lizbot >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Tina Hansen >> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 4:26 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Archives of Membership Conference Call >> >> Are there any plans to archive this afternoon's conference call, just in >> case someone missed it? Thanks. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >> l.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sun May 22 22:35:15 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 18:35:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Random Question In-Reply-To: <4dd9697c.97abe60a.4d62.757b@mx.google.com> References: <4dd9697c.97abe60a.4d62.757b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <54881F86-2347-410A-AE4B-3DB7D5F0EBF0@gmail.com> No, its OK. Someone else already did. Thanks for the offer though. * On May 22, 2011, at 3:52 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: > Jorge, if you would like, I'll write you offlist to explain. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 22 May 2011 15:40:30 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Random Question > > Oh. > Handy. > I looked it up in my Braillenote but my BN didn't know what it was. > > > On May 22, 2011, at 3:23 PM, Jewel wrote: > > In my opinion, though, following or not following the horse races > (which I do not) has nothing to do with the question. A simple > dictionary search for 'Preakness' brought up a simple definition that > the Preakness is a racehorse (I think) and that is is pronounced > preek-nis. Ok, so that's what I offered here. *shrug* When soemthing > is terribly mispronounced by JAWS, that is usually the route I go, > since dictionaries know what they are talking about. The one I use: > Dictionary.com...now that I've got it figured out. > > On 5/21/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Yep! It's held at Pimlico Racecourse in Baltimore. Jorge, you > can write me offlist if you have any questions about it, since I > live in Maryland, near where the race takes place. As you can > imagine, it's a pretty exciting time here! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 15:00:16 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Random Question > > Jorge, > It's a horse race-part of the tripple crown...happens in > Maryland, > that's all I know...oh and it's on tonight > > On 5/21/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > What in the world does that word mean anyway? > > > On May 21, 2011, at 1:03 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: > > Ah yeah that's tonight, isn't it... Nicole, What about > "preekness?" > > Josh > > sent from my Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "NABS-L" Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 09:02:36 -0700 > Subject: [nabs-l] Random Question > > Has anyone found a misspelling to make Jaws correctly pronounce > Preakness? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekitty > kat2%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Mon May 23 00:20:09 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 17:20:09 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Elections at National Convention In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For your Information. NABS Offices Up For Election at National Convention President 1st Vice-President 2nd Vice-President Secretary Treasurer Board Member (1) Board Member (2) -- Darian Smith Board Member National Association Of Blind Students "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From dandrews at visi.com Mon May 23 00:21:52 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 19:21:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Thru Our Eyes, interview, Wednesday, may 25, 8:00 pm eastern Blind Sports Message-ID: > >On Wednesday, May 25, Thru Our Eyes host, Joe Ruffalo will interview >Dr. Don Mueller, physics professor and Sherlock Washington, >president of SW unlimited, >assistive technology expert. >The interview will feature the how and why to get involved in >sports, tennis and beep baseball. >Don Mueller is a tennis enthusiast and Sherlock Washington, a member >of the world championship beep baseball team. >Don't sit out, you need to get IN! >To watch or listen, please visit >www.thruoureyes.org >For screenreaders, please visit, >http://m.thruoureyes.org >Also visit >www.thruoureyes.org >to learn of other methods to watch and or listen. >To call in with a question and or comment, please dial >1 888 572 0141 > >Remember: When we all do, it becomes doable. >The more we try, the more we succeed. >Everything is impossible until you do it. >Keep believing. Keep dreaming. Keep learning >Let's work together. Let's make a difference! >Joseph J. Ruffalo >President, National Federation of the Blind of New Jersey >Phone: 973-743-0075 >Please visit our State and National Web Sites >http://www.nfbnj.org >http://www.thruoureyes.org >http://www.blindchildren.org >http://www.nfb.org >Email: >nfbnj at yahoo.com > From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Mon May 23 00:30:57 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 20:30:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Elections at National Convention In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60D3F6C7-FA40-4663-9F29-63166AC8A721@gmail.com> How old do you have to be to run? On May 22, 2011, at 8:20 PM, Darian Smith wrote: > For your Information. > > NABS Offices Up For Election at National Convention > President > 1st Vice-President > 2nd Vice-President > Secretary > Treasurer > Board Member (1) > Board Member (2) > > > -- > Darian Smith > Board Member > National Association Of Blind Students > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Mon May 23 00:53:28 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 17:53:28 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Elections at National Convention In-Reply-To: <60D3F6C7-FA40-4663-9F29-63166AC8A721@gmail.com> References: <60D3F6C7-FA40-4663-9F29-63166AC8A721@gmail.com> Message-ID: if you are interested in running, or wish to know more about the process, rules.. etc, you may want to send an E-mail to nabs.membership at gmail.com. Currently there are no stated age limitations, but I would encourage any interested persons to go ahead and E-mail the above address. This will be the way that the nabs board gains the best information on if there should or shouldn't be an election forum, and if there is little interest there may not be a call. Thank you for your careful consideration and interest in working together in changing what it means to be a blind student! Sincerely, Darian Smith Board Member National Association of Blind Students On 5/22/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > How old do you have to be to run? > > > On May 22, 2011, at 8:20 PM, Darian Smith wrote: > >> For your Information. >> >> NABS Offices Up For Election at National Convention >> President >> 1st Vice-President >> 2nd Vice-President >> Secretary >> Treasurer >> Board Member (1) >> Board Member (2) >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Board Member >> National Association Of Blind Students >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> — Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Mon May 23 01:11:14 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 18:11:14 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] 2011 National Federation of The Blind Convention Ajenda! Message-ID: Hello all, appoligies if you've already recieved this, but I wanted to make sure that everyone got a hold of the ajenda for national convention! I'm atatching this to this E-mail and it also shall be posted in the body of this message for ease of access. Thanks so much andI look forward to seeing all of you there! - Darian 2011 ANNUAL CONVENTION ORLANDO, FLORIDA JULY 3 to JULY 8 NFB Pledge I pledge to participate actively in the effort of the National Federation of the Blind to achieve equality, opportunity, and security for the blind; to support the policies and programs of the Federation; and to abide by its constitution. THE MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND OF FLORIDA WELCOME YOU TO THE 71st ANNUAL CONVENTION OF THE NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND Marc Maurer, President National Federation of the Blind 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place Baltimore, Maryland 21230 Mary Ellen Jernigan, Chairwoman Convention Organization and Activities Dan Hicks, President National Federation of the Blind of Florida 504 South Armenia Avenue, #1319-B Tampa, Florida 33609 Rosen Shingle Creek 9939 Universal Boulevard Orlando, Florida 32819 (866) 996-9939 Welcome to the 71st annual convention of the National Federation of the Blind being held in Orlando at the Rosen Shingle Creek hotel. An article giving a detailed description of the layout of the hotel appeared in the May Monitor. That article is reprinted immediately after the “Convention Notes,” which are at the conclusion of the program listings. Check the “Notes” for further information about a variety of convention topics. When you check in to the hotel, you will be asked to confirm your departure date. If you decide to leave earlier than the departure date you confirm when you check in, there will be a $50 change fee. ROOKIE ROUNDUP All first-time convention attendees are cordially invited to attend a reception from 8:00 to 10:00 pm on Sunday in the Panzacola F-1 Ballroom, Level 1. President Maurer and other Federation leaders will be on hand to welcome you to the convention and preview the week’s activities. Veteran conventioneers should urge all first-timers to attend this special event. Also, first-time rookies are invited to join an informal, fun gathering on Tuesday from 12:00 noon to 2:00 pm in the Affiliate Action Suite 14230. REGISTRATION & PREREGISTRATION Registration activities take place in the Sebastian Ballroom Pre-function area, Level 1 beginning at 9:00 am on Monday; at 8:30 am on Tuesday; and at other times as listed throughout the week. The fee for registration at convention is $20 per person. All those attending the convention (both local and out of town people) are asked to register. Convention registration is a requirement for door prize eligibility and a number of other convention activities. We condition rates for hotel rooms on proof of registration, including the showing of an NFB registration badge if requested. EXHIBITS AND NFB INDEPENDENCE MARKET Exhibits and the NFB Independence Market are on display in Sebastian K and L Ballrooms, Level 1. There is a special Sponsor-level exhibitors preview for convention attendees on Monday morning from 9:00 to 11:00. Exhibit hall hours of operation are: Monday (Sponsors only) 9:00 to 11:00 am Monday 11:00 am to 5:00 pm Tuesday 8:30 am to 5:00 pm Wednesday Noon to 1:45 pm and from 7:00 to 10:00 pm Thursday Noon to 1:45 pm and 7:00 to 9:00 pm Independence Market hours of operation are: Monday 9:00 am to 5:00 pm Tuesday 8:30 am to 5:00 pm Wednesday Noon to 1:45 pm Thursday Noon to 1:45 pm (final time slot to visit the Market) NFB BLIND DRIVER TEST TRACK Participate in the research behind the building of nonvisual interfaces empowering a blind person to drive. Test the current NFB Blind Driver Challenge™ interfaces on a simulator operated by graduate students at Virginia Tech and complete a short survey. Visit Sebastian L-1 Ballroom, Level 1 (near the exhibit hall) during the following hours: Sunday 10:00 am to noon and 1:00 to 5:00 pm Monday 9:00 am to noon and 1:00 to 5:00 pm Tuesday 8:00 to 11:00 am Wednesday Noon to 1:45 pm and 6:30 to 8:30 pm Thursday Noon to 1:45 pm K-NFB’S BLIO READER MAKING BOOKS ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE! Blio fulfills our dream: “Same book, same time, same price”; equal access for everyone including the blind. Blio is free e-reader software designed for presentation of digital media, developed and distributed by K-NFB Reading Technology, Inc. Shop the Blio bookstore and know that any book you buy you can read with no transcription or conversion for accessibility required. Enjoy access to more than three million free books using Blio, the new touchstone in e-book reading technology. To learn more, come to one of our demonstration sessions listed in the agenda on Sunday, Monday, and Thursday or visit Blio.com on a computer near you. SPECIAL ATTENTION ITEMS • The Presidential Suite (13217), the Convention Organization and Activities Suite (13216), the Affiliate Action & Rookie Activities Suite (14230), and the Florida Affiliate Suite (14231) are all open during much of the convention. All are welcome to come to these suites to visit. Appointments to meet with Dr. Maurer may be made at the Presidential Suite. • Banquet tickets ($60.00) may be purchased at registration. No tickets will be available after 2:00 pm on Wednesday. At the Banquet Exchange Table you may make arrangements to reserve a specific seat for yourself or for a group of up to ten people. On the evening of the banquet, tickets will be collected at the tables. • General Sessions will be held in Sebastian I and J Ballrooms, Level 1. • NLS Oral History Program—MaryBeth Wise of the National Library Service for the Blind and Physically Handicapped is interviewing clients of the NLS for an oral history of the service at convention this year. If you are interested in being interviewed, please call Ms. Wise at (301) 651-6861. • Individuals needing to conduct business with the NFB Treasurer may do so by going to Wekiwa 9, Level 2 on Wednesday between 5:30 and 7:30 pm, or on Thursday between noon and 2:00 pm. CONVENTION AGENDA SUNDAY, JULY 3, 2011 7:30 - 8:45 am—AMATEUR RADIO DIVISION EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS Suwannee 11, Level 2 Discuss convention frequencies, hotel architectural features, and distributing special FM receivers for the hearing-impaired and Spanish-speaking attendees. D. Curtis Willoughby (ka0vba), President 7:30 am - 4:45 pm—WHEN I GROW UP… A Conference for Families and Teachers of Blind/Visually Impaired Children Panzacola F-1, Level 1 7:30 to 8:45 am—Registration: adults $30; children (5 to 18) $15 9:00 to 11:00 am—Conference 11:00 am to 4:45 pm—Concurrent Workshops (see agenda listings) Sponsored by the NFB’s National Organization of Parents of Blind Children Division (NOPBC); Laura Weber, President 7:30 am - 5:00 pm—STRUCTURED DISCOVERY: THE HISTORY, THE LEGACY, AND THE FUTURE—TENTH ANNUAL REHABILITATION AND ORIENTATION AND MOBILITY CONFERENCE Panzacola F-2 Ballroom, Level 1 7:30 to 8:30 am—Registration; 8:30 am—Conference begins NBPCB Fees (includes lunch): Students $75; Professionals $100 12:00 noon to 2:00 pm—NBPCB Awards Luncheon in Panzacola F-4. Sponsors: National Blindness Professional Certification Board (NBPCB); National Association of Blind Rehabilitation Professionals (NABRP); and the Professional Development & Research Institute on Blindness (PDRIB) at the Louisiana Tech University. Chairperson: Dr. Edward Bell 8:30 am—CHILD-CARE (Preregistration by June 15 was required) Suwannee 14, 15, 16, and 17, Level 2 Please see “Convention Notes” for further information. 8:30 - 11:30 am—A FIRST LOOK AT JAWS 13—FREEDOM SCIENTIFIC Panzacola H-3 Ballroom, Level 1 Join Eric Damery, JAWS Product Manager, for a session covering the new details surrounding JAWS development. In addition to many demonstrations of JAWS 12 with Settings Center and support for IE 9, this will also be the first look at JAWS 13 scheduled for public beta in September 2011. SUNDAY, JULY 3, Continued 8:30 am - 5:00 pm—NFB JERNIGAN INSTITUTE’S (NFBJI) ACCESS TECHNOLOGY SEMINARS Wekiwa 6, Level 2 8:30 - 10:00 am—Accessibility for Androids: finding the accessibility and barriers in Android-driven devices; 10:00 am - 12:00 noon—eBook Accessibility: covering Blio, Kindle for PC, Adobe Digital Editions, and other platforms; 1:30 - 3:00 pm—There’s an Accessible App for That, You Know: making the most of the apps on your phone for productivity, home automation, etc.; 3:30 - 5:00 pm—How to Build an Accessible Web Site: outlining simple ways to make your Web site accessible and easy to navigate. 9:00 am - 3:00 pm—EMPLOYMENT COMMITTEE SEMINAR Wekiwa 9, Level 2 Recession? Jobless recovery? Seventy percent unemployment rate among the blind? None of it matters if you know how to find a job in today’s environment. The rules are changing, and if you’re smart, you can make your own. Come to the seminar and find out how. Dick Davis, Chairperson 9:00 am - 5:00 pm—ARTWORKS AND ART ACTIVITIES FOR ALL AGES Panzacola H-4 Ballroom, Level 1 Author/editor Debbie Kent Stein and author/artist Ann Cunningham host a drop-in art room featuring a variety of artworks available for exploration by touch. Also art materials are on hand, so visitors may work on their own creations—at no charge—and keep their finished design. So stop by, create, and enjoy! 10:00 am - 12:00 noon—GW MICRO PRODUCT TRAINING: WINDOW-EYES, ORABIS, AND VOCATEX PLUS (To register call 260-489-3671; Fee is $10.00) Panzacola H-2 Ballroom, Level 1 Check out the innovative new features in Window-Eyes 7.5 including a brand new user interface, hundreds of free apps, built-in remote assistance and more. Also learn about the Orabis and Vocatex Plus, the world’s first talking CCTV solutions. Refreshments provided. Presenter: Marc Solomon. 10:00 am - 12:00 noon—NFB BLIND DRIVER TEST TRACK Sebastian L-1 Ballroom, Level 1 SUNDAY, JULY 3, Continued 10:45 am - 12:15 pm—GET IN THE GAME—NFB YOUTH TRACK (Ages 11-18) Wekiwa 1 and 2, Level 2 Jump into Youth Track by doing fun icebreakers with friends. Sign up for “The Amazing Race” taking place off-site on Tuesday (fee is $7). The Youth Track is sponsored by the NFBJI Education Team and is designed to foster positive attitudes about blindness among the youth. Coordinator: Natalie Shaheen. 11:00 am - 12:15 pm—NOPBC CONCURRENT SESSIONS FOR PARENTS AND TEACHERS The Right to Literacy for Young Blind/Visually Impaired Children Suwannee 18, Level 2 Instructors: Ann Burgess and Barbara Bailey Technology and the IEP Suwannee 19, Level 2 Instructor: Dr. Matt Maurer IDEA is Over—but Life for Your Adult Child with Additional Disabilities is Just Beginning Suwannee 20, Level 2 Instructor: Carol Akers Get a Life—A Social Life, That Is Suwannee 21, Level 2 Instructor: Mary Fernandez 1:00 - 3:00 pm—FREEDOM SCIENTIFIC: HANDS-ON DEMONSTRATIONS OF OPENBOOK 9, PEARL, AND SARA CE Panzacola H-3 Ballroom, Level 1 Featuring the OpenBook/PEARL combination and the new SARA CE reading appliance, followed by some time to try it out for yourself. Bring the materials you typically scan. If you have a laptop, bring it with you. We will install OpenBook, and you can try it out with your machine and the provided PEARL cameras. 1:00 - 5:00 pm—NFB BLIND DRIVER TEST TRACK Sebastian L-1 Ballroom, Level 1 SUNDAY, JULY 3, Continued 1:00 - 5:00 pm—ACCESSIBLE eBAY Wekiwa 7, Level 2 If you’re interested in buying and selling on eBay but find the eBay site challenging, this presentation is for you. Learn how to research items, place bids, list items for sale, and discover how enhanced accessibility features make the world’s largest on-line marketplace more available to blind shoppers and sellers than ever before. 1:00 - 5:00 pm—HUMANWARE PRODUCT SHOWCASE AND USER GROUPS Wekiwa 5, Level 2 1:00 pm: GPS travel with the Breeze; 2:00 pm: BrailleNote; 3:00 pm: Victor Stream; and 4:00 pm: Achieving Braille literacy with portable audio devices. Join HumanWare to learn about new updates and share product tips. Give us your suggestions and ask questions about your favorite HumanWare product. 1:00 - 6:00 pm—KRAFTERS DIVISION CRAFT SHOW Sebastian I-4 Ballroom, Level 1 If you are interested in crafts and appreciate hand-made items, this is the place to be! Come and meet some very talented Federation crafters and purchase their beautiful items for sale. Joyce Kane, President 1:30 - 2:45 pm—EXPERIENCE THE BLIO READER: MAKING THE WORLD’S BOOKS ENJOYABLE, USABLE, AND ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE! Wekiwa 3, Level 2 Presented by James Gashel 1:30 - 4:30 pm—THE BLIND LIFE: YOUTH TRACK SESSIONS (AGES 11-18). Wekiwa 1, Level 2—youth ages 11-14 Wekiwa 2, Level 2—youth ages 14-18 Games designed to entertain and stretch your ideas about blindness—Test your skills through JENGA; let your inner actor/actress out through Get A CLUE; take a RISK; and play the game of LIFE. 1:30 - 4:30 pm—SENIORS SEMINAR: FINDING SOLUTIONS Wekiwa 4, Level 2 1:30 pm—Registration; 2:00 pm—Seminar begins This seminar will focus on problem solving, ways to spread our message, and new ways of accomplishing old tasks. If you are a senior who has recently lost some vision or wants ideas to take home to others, you will want to join us. Please come and share your solutions. Judy Sanders, President SUNDAY, JULY 3, Continued 2:00 - 3:15 pm—NOPBC CONCURRENT SESSIONS FOR PARENTS AND TEACHERS Age-Appropriate Expectations Suwannee 18, Level 2 Instructor: Dr. Ruby Ryles Behavior: Who’s in Control Here Anyway? Suwannee 19, Level 2 Instructor: Dr. Jerry Petroff Preparing for College Suwannee 20, Level 2 Instructor: Barbara Mathews and College Student Panel Tools and Techniques for the Classroom Suwannee 21, Level 2 Instructors: Dr. Lillian Rankel, Marilyn Winograd, Dr. Cary Supalo, and Dr. Andrew Greenberg 3:00 - 4:45 pm—EXPERIENCE THE BLIO READER: MAKING THE WORLD’S BOOKS ENJOYABLE, USABLE, AND ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE! Wekiwa 3, Level 2 Presented by James Gashel 3:30 - 4:30 pm—ROMAN CATHOLIC MASS Sebastian I-1 Ballroom, Level 1 Father Gregory Paul, C.P., Celebrant 3:30 - 4:45 pm—NOPBC CONCURRENT SESSIONS FOR PARENTS AND TEACHERS Issues in Standardized Testing Suwannee 18, Level 2 Instructor: Pat Renfranz Behavior: Who’s in Control Here Anyway? Suwannee 19, Level 2 Instructor: Dr. Jerry Petroff SUNDAY, JULY 3, Continued NOPBC CONCURRENT SESSIONS, Cont’d An Independent Life: Equipping Your Child with Skills Suwannee 20, Level 2 Instructor: Melody Roane Out and About: Independent Mobility for Your Child Suwannee 21, Level 2 Instructor: Denise Mackenstadt 3:30 - 6:00 pm—COMMUNITY SERVICES ORGANIZATIONAL MEETING Wekiwa 9, Level 2 Come join fellow service-minded Federationists as we begin the first step to opening doors for the organized blind in the field of community service. All are welcome. Let’s get involved! Darian Smith, Coordinator 5:00 - 7:00 pm—SPANISH SEMINAR Wekiwa 4, Level 2 Blindness is blindness, no matter what the language. Meet new and old friends; learn about Federation philosophy and the truth about blindness—in Spanish. Moderator: Alpidio Rolón 5:00 - 8:00 pm—MIX-AND-MINGLE RECEPTION FOR REHABILITATION PROFESSIONALS Panzacola F-4 Ballroom, Level 1 6:00 - 10:00 pm—NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF GUIDE DOG USERS (NAGDU) ANNUAL BUSINESS MEETING Panzacola H-3 Ballroom, Level 1 6:00 pm–Registration; 7:00 pm–Meeting begins Updates on Division initiatives, including the Education and Advocacy Hotline, legal cases, affiliate division reports, elections, and guide dog training program reports. Marion Gwizdala, President 6:30 - 10:00 pm—NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND OFFICE PROFESSIONALS Suwannee 19, Level 2 6:30 pm–Registration; 7:00 pm–Meeting begins Learn about new technology and how blind telephone operators, receptionists, customer service reps, Braille transcribers and proofreaders, and other office workers solve problems and challenges in the office setting. Lisa Hall, President SUNDAY, JULY 3, Continued 7:00 - 8:30 pm—LIVING HISTORY GROUP Suwannee 20, Level 2 Dedicated to recording, preserving, and appreciating Federation history. Michael Freholm, Chairperson 7:00 - 9:00 pm—NOPBC FAMILY HOSPITALITY NIGHT Wekiwa 1 and 2, Level 2 Relax and chat in an informal atmosphere. This is a great opportunity to meet new families and connect with old friends. Veteran parents will be on hand to welcome you and share information. 7:00 - 10:00 pm—NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND VETERANS Suwannee 18, Level 2 How can we better serve our veterans and show them our appreciation at the same time? Join us to find out about the Wounded Warrior Initiative program we have begun and how you can become involved. We are also holding our annual elections. Let’s grow the NABV like never before! Dwight Sayer, President 8:00 - 9:00 pm—WHITE CANE AND AFFILIATE FINANCE COMMITTEE Wekiwa 4, Level 2; Alpidio Rolón, Chairperson 8:00 - 10:00 pm—NFB LIONS GROUP Suwannee 21, Level 2 NFB members who would like to join a Lions Club or are already Lions are urged to meet to share ideas and experiences. Please wear your shirts or vests for a photo. Co-Chairpersons: Ramona Walhof and Milton Ota 8:00 - 10:00 pm—ROOKIE ROUNDUP RECEPTION Panzacola F-1 Ballroom, Level 1 First-time convention attendees—don’t miss this event! President Maurer and former rookies will be on hand to welcome you and answer questions about the week’s activities. Casual dress. Coordinator: Pam Allen, Director of the Louisiana Center for the Blind and President of the NFB of Louisiana 8:00 pm - midnight—KARAOKE NIGHT♫♫ (Admission: $5.00) Panzacola F-3 Ballroom, Level 1 Enjoy music, door prizes, and a cash bar; meet BLIND, Incorporated’s students and alumni and share their experiences from training. Here’s your chance to sing like a rock star; Braille song lists are available. Hosted by BLIND, Incorporated. SUNDAY, JULY 3, Continued 9:00 - 10:00 pm—NFB AMBASSADORS COMMITTEE MEETING Wekiwa 10, Level 2 Angela Wolf, Chairperson 9:00 pm - midnight—STUDENTS OPEN HOUSE Affiliate Action Suite 14230 Students of all ages are invited to this informal open house gathering sponsored by the National Association of Blind Students Division. Come to meet and mingle with other blind students and young professionals! MONDAY, JULY 4, 2011 9:00 am - 5:00 pm—REGISTRATION ($20); BANQUET TICKET SALES ($60); Sebastian Ballroom Pre-function Area, Level 1 9:00 - 11:00 am—SPONSOR-LEVEL EXHIBITORS PREVIEW Sebastian K Ballroom, Level 1 The exhibit hall opens its doors and is dedicated solely to sponsor-level exhibitors. Come to say “thank you” to our sponsors and enjoy their interesting offers and demonstrations. Our Convention Sponsors are: Title: eBay Inc. Platinum: HumanWare; UPS Gold: Oracle; Market Development Group, Inc.; Ingram Content Group and VitalSource Technologies Silver: Freedom Scientific Bronze: IBM; National Industries for the Blind; Research in Motion White Cane: GW Micro, Inc.; Toyota; HIMS; Sendero Group; Learning Ally (formerly Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic); LevelStar; Independence Science; C AND P (Chris Park Design); En-Vision America. 9:00 - 11:00 am—INDEPENDENCE MARKET Sebastian L Ballroom, Level 1 9:00 am - 12:00 noon—NFB BLIND DRIVER TEST TRACK Sebastian L-1 Ballroom, Level 1 11:00 am 5:00 pm—EXHIBITS AND INDEPENDENCE MARKET Sebastian K and L Ballrooms, Level 1 12:00 noon - 4:30 pm—AUTO SHOW (CLASSICS, ANTIQUES, AND SPECIAL INTEREST VEHICLES) Event Parking Lot Area Presented by the NFB CARS Division; Joe Naulty, President 1:00 - 3:00 pm—eBAY SELLING STRATEGIES: BEYOND ACCESSIBILITY Suwannee 20, Level 2 Discover the benefits of joining the 92-million-member eBay community. What’s selling and at what price? What does it take to create a listing that attracts top bids? Whether you want to clear out Grandma’s attic or develop a thriving business, join us to learn strategies for eBay selling success. MONDAY, JULY 4, Continued 1:00 - 3:00 pm—NFB-NEWSLINE®: MORE TO CHOOSE THAN NEWS! Suwannee 18, Level 2 Learn about the NFB’s free audible newspaper service for the blind, with specific information on the enhanced job-listings feature, our newest access method the NFB- NEWSLINE® NLS Digital Talking-Book Downloader, and the variety of content available to subscribers. 1:00 - 4:00 pm—BLIND MUSICIANS GROUP Suwannee 19, Level 2 Share ideas and tips and network with other blind musicians. Linda Mentink, Chairperson 1:00 - 5:00 pm—ARTWORKS AND ART ACTIVITIES FOR ALL AGES Panzacola H-4 Ballroom, Level 1 Author/editor Debbie Kent Stein and author/artist Ann Cunningham host a drop-in art room featuring a variety of artworks available for exploration by touch. Also art materials are on hand, so visitors may work on their own creations--at no charge--and keep their finished design. So stop by, create, and enjoy! 1:00 - 5:00 pm—NOTE TAKER & DAISY PLAYER TECHNOLOGY FROM HIMS Wekiwa 9, Level 2 Learn about the latest note taker technology including social networking with Twitter and Google Talk, PDF and EPUB support, iDevice connectivity and new integrated dictionary and thesaurus. Also discover exciting and unique features of HIMS BookSense DAISY players! To register go to www.hims-inc.com. 1:00 - 5:00 pm—NATIONAL CERTIFICATION IN LITERARY BRAILLE (NCLB) OFFICIAL EXAMINATION—SECTIONS ONE AND TWO Wekiwa 3, Level 2 Participants must have preregistered. Exam sections three and four are on Tuesday at 1:00 pm. Sponsored by the National Blindness Professional Certification Board MONDAY, JULY 4, Continued 1:00 - 5:00 pm—NFB BLIND DRIVER TEST TRACK Sebastian L-1 Ballroom, Level 1 1:00 - 5:00 pm—THE SEEING EYE “CELEBRATION OF INDEPENDENCE” ICE CREAM PARTY Panzacola F-4 Ballroom, Level 1 Celebrate independence with The Seeing Eye! Seeing Eye® grads and others interested in guide dog travel are invited to share your tales and tails at this ice cream party. The Seeing Eye is the most experienced guide dog school in the world. Independence with dignity—and ice cream. 1:00 - 5:00 pm—NFB-NEWSLINE® DEMONSTRATION OPEN HOUSE Wekiwa 7, Level 2 Stop by and learn about NFB’s free audio information service and get hands-on experience with access methods (including the NLS Digital Talking Book Downloader) and our enhanced job-listings feature. 1:00 - 9:00 pm—SELF-DEFENSE CLASS; SPORTS & REC DIVISION Panzacola F-3 Ballroom, Level 1 Back by popular demand! We are hosting several self-defense workshops instructed by internationally renowned Sensei Stephen Nikols. Space is limited, so contact Lisamaria Martinez to sign up—call (510) 289-2577 or e-mail lmartinez217 at gmail.com. Lisamaria Martinez, President 1:30 pm—RESOLUTIONS COMMITTEE Sebastian J Ballroom, Level 1 Sharon Maneki, Chairperson 1:30 - 2:45 pm—EXPERIENCE THE BLIO READER: MAKING THE WORLD’S BOOKS ENJOYABLE, USABLE, AND ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE! Suwannee 21, Level 2 Presented by James Gashel 3:00 - 4:45 pm—EXPERIENCE THE BLIO READER: MAKING THE WORLD’S BOOKS ENJOYABLE, USABLE, AND ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE! Suwannee 21, Level 2 Presented by James Gashel MONDAY, JULY 4, Continued 4:00 - 5:00 pm—WRITING YOUR SCRIPT: NFB YOUTH TRACK (ages 11-18) Wekiwa 8, Level 2 Whether you are an aspiring writer or just want to brush up on the basics, join members of the Writers Division for a fun and informative workshop. 4:00 - 6:00 pm—FEDERATION REGENERATION Suwannee 18, Level 2 Learn how to develop quality programs in your state while regenerating your Federation spirit. Sponsored by the NFB Jernigan Institute; Natalie Shaheen, Coordinator 4:15 - 5:45 pm—FOURTEENTH ANNUAL MOCK TRIAL—National Association of Blind Lawyers; Scott LaBarre, President Panzacola G-1 Ballroom, Level 1 Admission: $5.00. Federation lawyers are pitted against each other reenacting an old Federation case with the audience serving as the jury. Although the subject matter is very serious, the courtroom portrayers are very entertaining. 5:00 - 6:30 pm—NFB RESEARCH ROUNDUP Affiliate Action Suite 14230 The NFB Jernigan Institute and the editors of the Journal of Blindness Innovation and Research invite you to a networking gathering for current and future researchers interested in topics related to the blind. Spark new collaborations and ways to share information about research projects to be undertaken. Contact: Mark Riccobono, Executive Director for the Jernigan Institute 6:00 - 7:30 pm—NFB AFFILIATE PRESIDENTS AND TREASURERS SEMINAR Wekiwa 5, Level 2 All affiliate presidents and treasurers are asked to attend this session. Topics include internal controls, state charitable registrations, end-of-year preparations, and discussing individual state issues with facilitators Charlie Brown, Ron Gardner, Bridgid Burke, and Nick Lambright 6:00 - 8:00 pm—STORY TIME IDOL—NFB WRITERS DIVISION Suwannee 18, Level 2 Tell and/or listen to tall and scary stories (suitable for all ages). Cost is $5.00 at the door and $1.00 to tell a story. Idol winners share in the take! Robert Leslie Newman, President MONDAY, JULY 4, Continued 6:15 - 10:00 pm—NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND STUDENTS (NABS) Panzacola G-1 Ballroom, Level 1 6:15pm–Registration ($5.00); 7:00 pm–Meeting Students, young professionals, parents, teachers, and anyone interested in learning about issues affecting blind students are welcome to attend. Arielle Silverman, President 7:00 - 8:30 pm—PUBLIC EMPLOYEES DIVISION Suwannee 19, Level 2 Ivan Weich, President 7:30 - 9:00 pm—LIBRARY SERVICES COMMITTEE Suwannee 20, Level 2 David Hyde, Chairperson 7:30 - 9:30 pm—BLIND PARENTS GROUP Wekiwa 10, Level 2 Blind parents share their experiences around child-raising issues, such as learning infant care, coping with printed homework assignments, finding print/Braille books, dealing with the public’s misconceptions, and more. Deborah Kent Stein, Chairperson 7:30 - 10:00 pm—COMMITTEE FOR THE PROMOTION, EVALUATION, AND ADVANCEMENT OF TECHNOLOGY Suwannee 11, Level 2 Hear exhibitors explain briefly what they are exhibiting and where they are located in the exhibit hall. We will also evaluate the effectiveness of what our Committee is doing now and consider programs for the coming year. Gary Wunder, Chairperson 8:00 - 9:00 pm—JUDAISM MEETING Suwannee 21, Level 2 David Stayer, Chairperson, NFB in Judaism Group MONDAY, JULY 4, Continued 8:00 - 9:30 pm—MEMBERSHIP COMMITTEE: FINDING, ATTRACTING, AND KEEPING NEW MEMBERS IN OUR CHAPTERS AND AFFILIATES Wekiwa 5, Level 2 The NFB is a dynamic and thriving organization—achieved entirely by the sheer determination and creativity of its members, present and past. Please join us to discuss new ideas to increase our membership further, such as “at large” chapters and how they work. Ron Gardner, Chairperson; J.W. Smith, Co-Chairperson 9:00 - 10:00 pm—SPANISH TRANSLATION COMMITTEE Suwannee 18, Level 2 We provide simultaneous translation into Spanish during the general sessions of the convention. Please join us if you would like to help with this effort. Norman Gardner, Chairperson TUESDAY, JULY 5, 2011 8:00 - 11:00 am—NFB BLIND DRIVER TEST TRACK Sebastian L-1 Ballroom, Level 1 8:30 am - 5:00 pm—EXHIBITS AND INDEPENDENCE MARKET Sebastian K and L Ballrooms, Level 1 8:30 am - 5:00 pm—REGISTRATION ($20); BANQUET TICKET SALES ($60); Sebastian Ballroom Pre-function Area, Level 1 9:00 11:30 am—NFB BOARD OF DIRECTORS MEETING (Open to all) Sebastian I and J Ballrooms, Level 1 11:30 am - 12:30 pm—BLIND APPRENTICE: YOUTH TRACK (ages 11-18) Suwannee 11, Level 2 Want to be a lawyer? Do you plan to teach or work in the human services field? Are you unsure what career to consider? No matter how you answered these questions, gather with us to hear from members of the NFB’s various divisions as they describe their division to find the one that is right for you. 12:00 noon - 2:00 pm—FIRST-TIME NFB CONVENTION ATTENDEES Affiliate Action Suite 14230 Is this your first National Federation of the Blind convention? If so, please bring your own lunch and participate in a fun gathering; meet some friendly people and have your convention questions answered by experienced Federationists. 12:30 - 5:00 pm—DIABETES ACTION NETWORK (DAN) SEMINAR Suwannee 20, Level 2 12:30 pm–Registration; 1:00 pm–Meeting begins Learn about new, accessible diabetes equipment coming to market. Mike Freeman, President 12:30 - 5:00 pm—NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND LAWYERS (NABL) Panzacola F-2 Ballroom, Level 1 12:30 pm - Registration; 1:00 pm - Meeting begins Examine laws affecting blind people and others with disabilities; address ongoing struggles to gain equal access to Web sites, employment, legal texts and exams. Scott LaBarre, President TUESDAY, JULY 5, Continued 12:30 - 5:00 pm—NFB IN COMPUTER SCIENCE Wekiwa 6, Level 2 12:30 pm–Registration; 1:00 pm–Meeting begins Some of the topics include nonvisual access to software used by Information Technology professionals, Accessible Network Administration Tools, and much more. Curtis Chong, President 12:30 - 5:00 pm—NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF THE BLIND IN COMMUNITIES OF FAITH Suwannee 19, Level 2 12:30 pm–Registration; 1:00 pm–Meeting begins The theme is “Meeting Challenges: Gaining Opportunities.” Speakers tell how their faith has helped them face and overcome challenges; also hear representatives from various faith-based libraries and publishing houses describe what their organizations do; elections. Tom Anderson, President 12:30 - 9:00 pm—SPORTS AND RECREATION DIVISION MEETING Panzacola F-3 Ballroom, Level 1 12:30 pm–Registration; 1:00 pm–Meeting begins Our division meeting is quite an experience. Wear your sweats and be comfortable so you can move! Get ready to row your way into fitness and fun with indoor row machines. Lisamaria Martinez, President 1:00 3:00 pm—PUBLIC RELATIONS COMMITTEE MEETING & SEMINAR Suwannee 13, Level 2 Don’t wait for the media to discover you—come and share ideas and strategies on how to harness the power of the media! Members of the committee and the newly created NFB Press Corps, as well as others interested in getting our message out, are encouraged to attend. Chris Danielsen, Chairperson 1:00 - 3:30 pm—PROFESSIONALS IN BLINDNESS EDUCATION Wekiwa 2, Level 2 All professionals working with students (from birth to age 21) are welcome and encouraged to join us for this informative and interactive meeting. Come network and collaborate! Annee Hartzell, Chairperson 1:00 - 4:00 pm—PERFORMING ARTS DIVISION Suwannee 21, Level 2 General meeting with elections, an introduction to our new state divisions, and speakers. Dennis H.R. Sumlin, President TUESDAY, JULY 5, Continued 1:00 - 4:00 pm—NOPBC ANNUAL DIVISION MEETING: OPTIONS AND OPPORTUNITIES Panzacola H-3 Ballroom, Level 1 Presenting the Distinguished Educator of Blind Children winner, special guest speakers, blind students panel, and more! Laura Weber, President 1:00 - 4:30 pm—NATIONAL ORGANIZATION OF BLIND EDUCATORS Wekiwa 1, Level 2 1:00 pm–Registration; 1:30 pm–Meeting begins Blind teachers discuss techniques they use in their classrooms; participants also meet in groups specific to grade level and content areas of interest to create a network of mentors. If you teach or are considering a career in teaching at any level, please join us. Sheila Koenig, President 1:00 5:00 pm—NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND MERCHANTS REVOLUTIONIZING RANDOLPH-SHEPPARD: CREATING NEW, ROBUST, AND DIVERSE SMALL BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES FOR THE BLIND Panzacola H-2 Ballroom, Level 1 1:00 pm–Registration; 1:30 pm–Meeting begins The title says it all. Let’s continue to protect and defend the Randolph-Sheppard Program. The need to expand business opportunities and to develop new business initiatives for the blind of America is pressing. Nicky Gacos, President 1:00 - 5:00 pm—NATIONAL CERTIFICATION IN LITERARY BRAILLE (NCLB) OFFICIAL EXAMINATION—SECTIONS THREE AND FOUR Wekiwa 3, Level 2 Participants must have preregistered. Sponsored by the National Blindness Professional Certification Board 1:00 - 5:00 pm—NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND REHABILITATION PROFESSIONALS Wekiwa 5, Level 2 1:00 pm–Registration; 2:00 pm–Meeting begins Network, share mutual interests, find placement strategies, and examine and discuss concerns and current issues. Melody Lindsey, President TUESDAY, JULY 5, Continued 1:00 - 5:00 pm—“SENIORS IN CHARGE”—NFB SENIORS DIVISION MEETING AND (SOMEWHAT) SILENT AUCTION Wekiwa 4, Level 2 Join us to hear enthusiastic seniors share ideas about what they are doing; find out ways (gathered at our seminar) to spread our message of hope to seniors who have recently become blind. And then, of course, we are also having our very popular not-so-silent auction. Judy Sanders, President 1:00 - 5:00 pm—NFB-NEWSLINE® DEMONSTRATION OPEN HOUSE Wekiwa 7, Level 2 Stop by and learn about NFB’s free audio information service and get hands-on experience with access methods (including the NLS Digital Talking Book Downloader) and our enhanced job-listings feature. 1:00 - 6:00 pm—HUMAN SERVICES DIVISION Suwannee 11, Level 2 1:00–Registration; 2:00–Meeting begins; 5:00—Mingle and network Psychologists; social workers; counselors; and music, art, or dance therapists meet to discuss topics and network. David Stayer, President 1:30 3:00 pm—CULTURAL EXCHANGE AND INTERNATIONAL PROGRAM COMMITTEE Wekiwa 10, Level 2 Diane McGeorge, Chairperson 1:30 - 4:30 pm—WRITERS DIVISION BUSINESS MEETING Wekiwa 9, Level 2 Updating members on division business, announcing the 2011 winners of the youth and adult writing contests, listening to an expert on BLOGS, holding elections, and planning for the future. Robert Leslie Newman, President 2:00 - 3:00 pm—NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND ENTREPRENEURS Room location—contact James Bonerbo, Division president, at the hotel. All interested persons are welcome to join in an open discussion. 2:30 - 5:30 pm—TRAVEL AND TOURISM DIVISION Suwannee 18, Level 2 Topic of discussion: travel with blind consumers and blind travel professionals. Don Gillmore, President TUESDAY, JULY 5, Continued 3:15 - 5:15 pm—NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND PIANO TECHNICIANS Suwannee 13, Level 2 What does a piano technician do? Is piano technology uniquely suited to the blind? How do new technologies like electronic keyboards affect piano technology? Get answers to these questions to help you find a possible career. Hear how a piano is tuned; get hands-on experience. Don Mitchell, President 5:00 - 6:30 pm—NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND LAWYERS (NABL) RECEPTION Panzacola F-2 Ballroom, Level 1 For NABL members and seminar participants only to promote networking and fellowship within our membership. Hors d'oeuvres and cash bar available. Scott LaBarre, President 5:00 - 7:00 pm—BRAILLE BOOK FAIR Panzacola H-4 Ballroom, Level 1 A book lover’s dream! Browse tables of new and used Braille and print/Braille books. Volunteers will box your books and deliver them to the post office for Free Matter shipment. Books are free, and donations are encouraged to help support our Braille programs. Cosponsored by NOPBC and NAPUB. Coordinator: Barbara Cheadle 5:30 - 7:00 pm—KURZWEIL 1000™ USERS’ CONTINGENT Wekiwa 10, Level 2 Join us for the Kurzweil 1000 Users’ Contingent! Meet with Stephen Baum, Vice President of Engineering, and share with your fellow users. Kurzweil 1000 is our state-of-the-art, text-to-speech and life navigation software for blind and visually impaired readers. 6:00 - 8:00 pm—NEWSLETTER PUBLICATIONS COMMITTEE Suwannee 18, Level 2 Newsletters rule! But---what about e-mail lists, Web sites, social media, and the future of communication? Robert Leslie Newman, Chairman 6:00 - 9:00 pm—BACK TO BASICS: FOUNDATIONS IN MEMBERSHIP AND CHAPTER DEVELOPMENT Panzacola H-2 Ballroom, Level 1 Topics: replacing agenda-driven meetings with project-oriented meetings, mechanics of running a chapter, building membership, fundraising, Federation TUESDAY, JULY 5, Continued philosophy, and using at-large chapters effectively. Special recognition will be given to chapter presidents. Presented by the NFB Affiliate Action Team 6:00 - 10:00 pm—NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF GUIDE DOG USERS (NAGDU) SEMINAR; 6:00 pm–Registration; 7:00 pm–Seminar begins Panzacola H-3 Ballroom, Level 1 The blind traveler: Your Guide Dog and In-flight Emergency Procedures, presenter is Peg Slater, a flight attendant trainer; and Screening Blind Passengers, presenter is Rhonda Basha, Director, Office of Disability Policy and Outreach, TSA. Also, test-drive a guide dog! Marion Gwizdala, President 6:30 - 9:30 pm—SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING DIVISION Suwannee 21, Level 2 6:30 pm–Registration; 7:00 pm–Meeting begins John Miller, President 6:30 - 10:00 pm—ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY TRAINERS DIVISION Suwannee 19, Level 2 6:30 pm–Registration; 7:00 pm–Meeting begins Topics: determining the right note taker for your student; plunging without fear into Windows 7 with Cathyanne Murtha of Access Technology Institute; Jsay Pro; and teaching the Mac. Michael Barber, President 7:00 - 8:30 pm—“NEVER TOO LATE,” a play by Jerry Whittle (Admission: $5.00; Second performance is at 9:00 pm) Panzacola G-1 Ballroom, Level 1 A romantic comedy which follows Cassie Jamison, a young woman who is enrolled in Center training to enhance her skills of blindness. In the end, Cassie is not the only one learning new and challenging life lessons. Performed by the Louisiana Center for the Blind (LCB) Players; proceeds go to the LCB’s summer training program for blind children. 7:00 - 8:30 pm—NFB GRANT WRITING WORKSHOP Suwannee 13, Level 2 Learn to plan, write, and submit a strong grant application; discover key points and strategies about how to identify appropriate funders and submit a winning proposal. A brief overview of the Imagination Fund grant program will also be included. Coordinator: Seth Lamkin, NFB Jernigan Institute TUESDAY, JULY 5, Continued 7:00 - 9:00 pm—CLASSICS, ANTIQUES, AND RODS (CARS) DIVISION SEMINAR AND BUSINESS MEETING Wekiwa 9, Level 2 Come and hear speakers from automobile clubs talk about their activities and participate in the division business meeting. Joseph B. Naulty, President 7:00 - 9:00 pm—COMMITTEE TO EMPOWER UNDERSERVED POPULATIONS Wekiwa 2, Level 2 If you are feeling underserved, come and let your voice be heard! Ron Brown, Chairperson 7:00 - 9:00 pm—NATIONAL ASSOCIATION TO PROMOTE THE USE OF BRAILLE (NAPUB) SEMINAR Wekiwa 1, Level 2 Learn about Braille-related research, discuss current projects with vendors who produce Braille through hard copy and technology, experience the enthusiasm of some of our Braille Readers Are Leaders winners, and develop strategies for strengthening our division. Sandy Halverson, President 7:00 pm - midnight—SALSA DANCE LESSIONS AND PARTY (Fee: $5.00) Panzacola F-4 Ballroom, Level 1 Get into the “rhythm” of the convention—learn the salsa! Group and individual instructions provided at any level of proficiency; two new lessons have been added this year. Fee of $5.00 benefits the NFB Spanish Translation Committee (Norman Gardner, Chairperson). Cash bar. Coordinator: Conchita Hernandez. 8:00 - 9:30 pm—WEBMASTERS MEETING Suwannee 20, Level 2 A meeting for all NFB affiliate and division Webmasters to discuss the importance of an informative, accessible, and visually attractive Website. Gary Wunder, Chairperson, Webmasters Group 8:15 - 9:15 pm—FRIENDS OF RECOVERY MEETING Suwannee 11, Level 2 All convention delegates involved in or interested in twelve-step recovery programs are invited to attend. A second Friends of Recovery meeting will be on Thursday at 8:00 pm. Coordinator: Gary Ray TUESDAY, JULY 5, Continued 8:30 - 10:30 pm—eBAY SELLING STRATEGIES: BEYOND ACCESSIBILITY Suwannee 18, Level 2 Discover the benefits of joining the 92-million-member eBay community. What’s selling and at what price? What does it take to create a listing that attracts top bids? Whether you want to clear out Grandma’s attic or develop a thriving business, join us to learn strategies for eBay selling success. 9:00 - 10:30 pm—“NEVER TOO LATE,” a play by Jerry Whittle (Fee: $5.00) Panzacola G-1 Ballroom, Level 1 A romantic comedy which follows Cassie Jamison, a young woman who is enrolled in Center training to enhance her skills of blindness. In the end, Cassie is not the only one learning new and challenging life lessons. Performed by the Louisiana Center for the Blind (LCB) Players; proceeds go to the LCB’s summer training program for blind children. WEDNESDAY, JULY 6, 2011 8:00 - 8:45 am—DEVOTIONS Wekiwa 1, Level 2 8:15 8:45 am—REGISTRATION ($20); BANQUET TICKET SALES ($60) Sebastian Ballroom Pre-function Area, Level 1 OPENING GENERAL SESSION 9:30 am INVOCATION 9:35 am WELCOMING CEREMONIES 9:55 am CELEBRATION OF FREEDOM: VETERANS RECOGNIZED Dwight Sayer, President, National Association of Blind Veterans, National Federation of the Blind; Winter Gardens, Florida 10:05 am ROLL CALL OF STATES AND APPOINTMENT OF NOMINATING COMMITTEE 11:45 am REPORTS AND RESOLUTIONS 12:00 pm ADJOURN 12:00 noon 12:30 pm and 1:30 - 2:00 pm—REGISTRATION ($20); FINAL BANQUET TICKET SALES ($60)—Sebastian Ballroom Pre-function Area, Level 1 12:00 noon - 1:45 pm—EXHIBITS AND INDEPENDENCE MARKET Sebastian K and L Ballrooms, Level 1 12:00 noon - 1:45 pm—BLIND DRIVER TEST TRACK Sebastian L-1 Ballroom, Level 1 WEDNESDAY, JULY 6, Continued 12:15 - 1:45 pm—LOUISIANA CENTER FOR THE BLIND ALUMNI LUNCHEON Panzacola F-4 Ballroom, Level 1 All LCB alumni and those interested in learning more about how training at the Louisiana Center for the Blind will change your life are welcome. Pam Allen, Director GENERAL SESSION 2:00 pm CALL TO ORDER 2:05 pm PRESIDENTIAL REPORT, MARC MAURER 3:00 pm GETTING AN EDUCATION FOR BLIND CHILDREN AND ADULTS: HOW TO SURVIVE WITH PROPER EXPECTATIONS AND ACCESSIBILITY Moderator: Anil Lewis, Director of Strategic Communications, National Federation of the Blind; Baltimore, Maryland The Honorable Alexa Posny, Assistant Secretary, Office of Special Education and Rehabilitative Services, United States Department of Education; Washington, D.C. Gaeir Dietrich, Director of the High Tech Center Training Unit, California Community Colleges; Chair, Advisory Commission On Accessible Instructional Materials in Postsecondary Education for Students with Disabilities, Convened by the Secretary of Education, United States Department of Education; Cupertino, California. Peter Osborne, Head of International Partnerships and Development, Royal National Institute of Blind People; Peterborough, United Kingdom 3:55 pm THE AMERICAN SPIRIT IN ACTION: CREATING OPPORTUNITY, RESPONSIBILITY, AND FAITH Harris Rosen, President and Chief Operating Officer of Rosen Hotels and Resorts; Orlando, Florida WEDNESDAY, JULY 6, Continued 4:15 pm THE FIRST BLIND DRIVER ON THE DAYTONA SPEEDWAY: A PROGRAM INITIATED BY THE NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND Mark Riccobono, Executive Director, National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute; Baltimore, Maryland Dr. Dennis Hong, Associate Professor, Mechanical Engineering; Director, Robotics and Mechanisms Laboratory (RoMeLa), Virginia Tech University; Blacksburg, Virginia 4:55 pm REPORTS AND RESOLUTIONS 5:00 pm ADJOURN 5:30 - 6:30 pm—NOMINATING COMMITTEE Suwannee 11, Level 2 5:30 - 6:30 pm—NFB-LINK, OUR ONLINE MENTORING PROGRAM Affiliate Action Suite 14230 Attention current and future NFB-Link mentors! Join the Affiliate Action team for training and mentoring tips unique to the Internet-based mentoring experience. NFB-LINK is our online mentoring program, and by becoming a mentor, you will see how a little time on the computer can make a huge difference. 6:00 - 9:00 pm—DEAF BLIND DIVISION BUSINESS MEETING Wekiwa 3, Level 2 6:00 pm–Registration; 7:00 pm–Meeting begins Burnell Brown, President 6:30 - 8:30 pm—eBAY SELLING STRATEGIES: BEYOND ACCESSIBILITY Suwannee 19, Level 2 Discover the benefits of joining the 92-million-member eBay community. What’s selling and at what price? What does it take to create a listing that attracts top bids? Whether you want to clear out Grandma’s attic or develop a thriving business, join us to learn strategies for eBay selling success. WEDNESDAY, JULY 6, Continued 6:30 - 8:30 pm—NFB BLIND DRIVER TEST TRACK Sebastian L-1 Ballroom, Level 1 6:30 - 9:00 pm—COLORADO CENTER FOR THE BLIND OPEN HOUSE Panzacola H-4 Ballroom, Level 1 Join us to discover what the Colorado Center is all about. Meet our staff and students during this interactive open house. Pick up a Braille recipe, learn about rock climbing, and hear about the latest technology being used at the Center. We look forward to seeing you! Julie Deden, Director 7:00 - 8:15 pm—NOPBC CONCURRENT SESSIONS FOR PARENTS AND TEACHERS IEPs for Rookies: The Law, Evaluations, Goals, Strategies Wekiwa 1, Level 2 Instructor: Carlton Walker VR Services? What’s That? Wekiwa 2, Level 2 Instructor: Dick Davis Will and Estate Planning for Families with Special Needs Children Wekiwa 4, Level 2 Instructor: to be announced 7:00 - 8:30 pm—BOOKSHARE MEMBER PARTY AT NFB Wekiwa 5, Level 2 Enjoy snacks and refreshment. Plan to have fun with contests, drawings, and interacting with your fellow members. Meet the Bookshare staff. This is your opportunity to talk with us and share your ideas. We’re here to listen, and we look forward to meeting you. 7:00 - 9:00 pm—NFB KRAFTERS DIVISION BUSINESS MEETING Suwannee 18, Level 2 Unveiling new craft initiatives, including discussion on classes available via telephone conference and information on our Monday night nationwide chats. We are seeking teachers and students for crafting classes. Joyce Kane, President WEDNESDAY, JULY 6, Continued 7:00 - 9:00 pm—LEGISLATIVE STRATEGIES SEMINAR: MOVING LEGISLATION ON THE STATE AND NATIONAL LEVEL Suwannee 13, Level 2 Each affiliate should send one representative. Learn the best methods of increasing support for our legislative priorities. Changing lives through laws is our business. Led by Jesse Hartle and Lauren McLarney 7:00 - 9:00 pm—NFB-NEWSLINE® DEMONSTRATION OPEN HOUSE Wekiwa 7, Level 2 Stop by and learn about NFB’s free audio information service and get hands-on experience with access methods (including the NLS Digital Talking Book Downloader) and our enhanced job-listings feature. 7:00 - 10:00 pm—EXHIBITS ONLY Sebastian K Ballroom, Level 1 7:00 - 10:00 pm—MINUTE TO SWIM IT: YOUTH TRACK (ages 11-18) Pool Area Come enjoy an evening of swimming and wacky games based on the popular game show “Minute to Win It.” You don’t want to miss an evening that is sure to be full of laughs and great memories! 8:00 - 10:00 pm—COMMITTEE ON RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT Suwannee 11, Level 2 For the most part, technological developments tend to exclude blind people. Developers must change the ways future technologies are designed. Join us—perhaps you can suggest a technology or approach that nobody else has considered. Hai Nguyen Ly, Chairperson 8:00 pm - midnight—FLORIDA (INDOOR) BEACH PARTY! Panzacola G-1 and G-2 Ballrooms, Level 1 Come and take part in a real welcome to the Sunshine State hospitality evening hosted by the Florida affiliate. Catch up with your old friends and make new ones in an evening as fun as you choose to make it: dancing to tunes played by a DJ, cash bar, and other surprises! WEDNESDAY, JULY 6, Continued 8:30 - 9:45 pm—NOPBC CONCURRENT SESSIONS FOR PARENTS AND TEACHERS IEPs for “Veterans”: Getting a Good Plan in Place Wekiwa 1, Level 2 Instructor: Carlton Walker The ABCs of Braille Wekiwa 2, Level 2 Instructors: Gail Wagner and Vickie Buchignani Finding Summer and Part-time Jobs Wekiwa 4, Level 2 Instructors: Dick Davis and Panel of Blind Adults THURSDAY, JULY 7, 2011 8:00 - 8:45 am—DEVOTIONS Wekiwa 1, Level 2 8:15 8:45 am—REGISTRATION ($20)—Sebastian Ballroom Pre-function Area, Level 1 GENERAL SESSION 9:00 am INVOCATION 9:05 am FINANCIAL REPORT 9:55 am ELECTIONS 10:25 am DEVELOPING ENTREPRENEURIAL OPPORTUNITIES ONLINE THROUGH EBAY Mary Ellen Gabias, Director of Online Entrepreneurship, National Federation of the Blind; Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada Rick Willison, eBay Entrepreneur; Vancouver, Washington 10:50 am AN ACCESSIBLE ANDROID PDA Marc Mulcahy, President, LevelStar; Louisville, Colorado 11:05 am QUIET CARS, PEDESTRIAN SAFETY, AND PROTECTION FOR THE ENVIRONMENT: A PANEL DISCUSSION Moderator, John G. Paré, Jr., Executive Director for Strategic Initiatives, National Federation of the Blind; Baltimore, Maryland The Honorable David Strickland, Administrator, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, United States Department of Transportation; Washington, D.C. REPORT FROM GENERAL MOTORS Douglas B. Moore, Vehicle Performance Owner, General Motors; Milford, Michigan THURSDAY, JULY 7, Continued REPORT FROM TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION Kevin Ro, National Manager, Technical & Regulatory Affairs, Toyota Motor North America, Inc.; Washington, D.C. 11:50 am REPORTS AND RESOLUTIONS 12:00 pm ADJOURN 12:00 noon 12:30 pm and 1:30 - 2:00 pm—REGISTRATION ($20) Sebastian Ballroom Pre-function Area, Level 1 12:00 noon - 1:45 pm—EXHIBITS AND INDEPENDENCE MARKET (Final time for Independence Market) Sebastian K and L Ballrooms, Level 1 12:00 noon - 1:45 pm—BLIND DRIVER TEST TRACK (Final time) Sebastian L-1 Ballroom, Level 1 GENERAL SESSION 2:00 pm CALL TO ORDER 2:05 pm STRATEGIC INITIATIVES REPORT 2:40 pm EQUAL ACCESS TO TECHNOLOGY AND PROGRAMS IN THE UNITED STATES David M. Capozzi, Esq., Executive Director, United States Architectual and Transportation Barriers Compliance Board; Washington, D.C. 2:55 pm THE BRAILLE MONITOR 3:00 pm REPORTS, RESOLUTIONS, AND OTHER BUSINESS 5:00 pm ADJOURN THURSDAY, JULY 7, Continued 6:00 - 8:00 pm—AMERICAN FOUNDATION FOR THE BLIND AND AccessWorld PRESENT AN ACCESSIBLE CELL PHONE ROUNDUP Panzacola F-4 Ballroom, Level 1 You are invited to an informational reception featuring presentations by AccessWorld staff and hands-on opportunities with our top choices of phones for nonvisual and low vision use. We also look forward to greeting AFB’s old friends and making new ones. 7:00 - 8:15 pm—EXPERIENCE THE BLIO READER: MAKING THE WORLD’S BOOKS ENJOYABLE, USABLE, AND ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE! Suwannee 21, Level 2 Presented by James Gashel 7:00 9:00 pm—EXHIBITS ONLY Sebastian K Ballroom, Level 1 7:00 9:00 pm—“SOCIAL SECURITY AND SSI: WHAT APPLICANTS, ADVOCATES, AND RECIPIENTS SHOULD KNOW” SEMINAR Suwannee 11, Level 2 Topics: Social Security and SSI benefits, including eligibility criteria, the application process, reporting obligations, and appeals process. Also get information on the Medicare prescription drug benefit income subsidy program. Presenter: Daniel B. Frye, J.D., Social Security Advocate/Consultant 7:00 - 9:00 pm—IEP TRAINING FOR NFB VOLUNTEER ADVOCATES Suwannee 18, Level 2 Attorneys Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum and Carlton Anne Cook Walker instruct this workshop to provide an overview of the IEP legal framework, discuss how to deal with typical issues, and offer advice and tips for being an effective NFB volunteer advocate at IEP meetings for families with blind children. 7:00 - 9:00 pm—ACCESSIBLE MATH FOR STUDENTS WITH PRINT DISABILITIES Wekiwa 10, Level 2 Come preview Pearson products that make college math more accessible! You’ll work with JAWS on both an online homework system and readable eBook to provide us with feedback and your suggestions for future enhancements. Facilitators: Rick Clinton, Marlene Thom, and Heijung Kim THURSDAY, JULY 7, Continued 7:00 - 11:00 pm—ELEVENTH ANNUAL SHOWCASE OF TALENT—Fee: $5.00 Panzacola G-1 Ballroom, Level 1 Register early by contacting Performing Arts Division leaders at the convention by Tuesday. Proceeds benefit the division’s scholarship program and other programs. Sponsored by the Performing Arts Division; Dennis H.R. Sumlin, President 7:30 - 9:00 pm—THE IMPACT OF ORACLE PRODUCTS IN EDUCATION AND THE WORKPLACE Wekiwa 2, Level 2 Oracle technologies, platforms, and applications are installed at over 370,000 organizations worldwide, creating significant opportunities for people with disabilities. Learn about the latest developments in our key products, and hear from Oracle’s own employees who rely on these technologies for their jobs. 8:00 - 9:00 pm—FRIENDS OF RECOVERY MEETING Suwannee 19, Level 2 All convention delegates involved in or interested in twelve-step recovery programs are invited to attend. Gary Ray, Coordinator 8:00 - 11:30 pm—MONTE CARLO NIGHT Wekiwa 8, Level 2 Try your luck at any of the usual card games found on a casino floor. Sponsored by the National Association of Blind Students Division 8:30 - 9:45 pm—EXPERIENCE THE BLIO READER: MAKING THE WORLD’S BOOKS ENJOYABLE, USABLE, AND ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE! Suwannee 21, Level 2 Presented by James Gashel FRIDAY, JULY 8, 2011 8:00 - 8:45 am—DEVOTIONS Wekiwa 1, Level 2 8:15 8:45 am—REGISTRATION ($20)—Final opportunity to register. Sebastian Ballroom Pre-function Area, Level 1 GENERAL SESSION 9:00 am INVOCATION 9:05 am NO MORE SUBMINIMUM WAGES: THE TIME IS NOW! Fredric K. Schroeder, Ph.D.; Research Professor; San Diego State University; Vienna, Virginia 9:25 am CONDITIONS FOR THE BLIND IN THE WORKSHOP DURING THREE DECADES Stancil Tootle, Board Member, National Federation of the Blind of Georgia; Employee, Georgia Industries for the Blind; Bainbridge, Georgia 9:40 am REPORT ON DISABILITY EMPLOYMENT POLICY FROM THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF LABOR The Honorable Kathleen Martinez, Assistant Secretary, Office of Disability Employment Policy, United States Department of Labor; Washington, D.C. 9:55 am VALUABLE WORK AND VALUABLE WORKERS: A REPORT FROM THE CHICAGO LIGHTHOUSE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE BLIND OR VISUALLY IMPAIRED Dr. Janet Szlyk, President and Executive Director, The Chicago Lighthouse for People Who Are Blind or Visually Impaired; Chicago, Illinois 10:10 am CHANGES IN POLICY IN EMPLOYMENT PROGRAMS FOR THE BLIND Jim Kesteloot, Member, Committee for Purchase From People Who Are Blind or Severely Disabled; Chicago, Illinois FRIDAY, JULY 8, Continued 10:25 am ADDRESSING INEQUITIES IN THE WORKPLACE: THE PROMISE OF EQUAL OPPORTUNITY The Honorable Jacqueline Berrien, Chair, United States Equal Employment Opportunity Commission; Washington, D.C. 10:45 am A BLIND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF ONE OF THE LARGEST STATES IN AMERICA The Honorable Governor David A. Paterson; New York, New York 11:00 am BUILDING ACCESSIBLE TOOLS FOR KNOWLEDGE: A COMMITMENT BY A COMPUTER GIANT Dr. Alan Eustace, Senior Vice President, Knowledge; Google; Mountain View, California 11:20 am LIBRARY SERVICES TO THE BLIND OF THE NATION AND ACCESS TO DIGITAL MATERIAL FROM THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS Dr. Deanna B. Marcum, Associate Librarian for Library Services, The Library of Congress; Washington, D.C. 11:40 am QUESTIONS AND DISCUSSION 11:45 am REPORTS AND RESOLUTIONS 12:00 pm ADJOURN 12:00 noon - 1:45 pm—AMATEUR RADIO DIVISION BUSINESS MEETING Suwannee 11, Level 2 D. Curtis Willoughby (ka0vba), President 12:00 noon - 1:45 pm—RAFFLES AND DRAWINGS Wekiwa 5, Level 2 FRIDAY, JULY 8, Continued GENERAL SESSION 2:00 pm CALL TO ORDER 2:05 pm EQUAL ACCESS TO INFORMATION: THE URGENCY AND THE LAW Daniel Goldstein, Esq., Partner, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP; Baltimore, Maryland 2:20 pm THE ACCESSIBLE CAMPUS IN CALIFORNIA: AN EXAMPLE FOR THE NATION Peter M. Siegel, Chief Information Officer and Vice Provost, Information and Educational Technology; University of California Davis; Davis, California 2:40 pm CIVIL RIGHTS FOR DISABLED AMERICANS Samuel Bagenstos, Esq., Principal Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Division, United States Department of Justice; Washington, D.C. 2:55 pm TRANSCENDENT IDEAS, THE MAN TO MAKE THEM CURRENT, AND A PARTNERSHIP EXPANDING ACCESS FOR ALL Ray Kurzweil, President and Chief Executive Officer, K-NFB Reading Technology, Inc.; Wellesley Hills, Massachusetts 3:15 pm BLIO: PROVIDING ACCESS TO THREE MILLION BOOKS AND GROWING James Gashel, Vice President of Business Development, K-NFB Reading Technology, Inc.; Denver, Colorado 3:30 pm A PARTNERSHIP FOR ACCESS: COMMENTS FROM THE MAJOR DISTRIBUTOR OF BOOKS IN THE UNITED STATES Robert Nelson, President, Digital Group, Baker & Taylor; Charlotte, North Carolina FRIDAY, JULY 8, Continued 3:45 pm BASEBALL, HALL OF FAME, BLINDNESS Ron Brown, Second Vice President, National Federation of the Blind; Indianapolis, Indiana 4:00 pm DR. JACOB BOLOTIN AWARD James Gashel, Chairperson, Dr. Jacob Bolotin Award Committee; Secretary, National Federation of the Blind; Denver, Colorado 4:35 pm REPORTS AND RESOLUTIONS 5:00 pm ADJOURN 7:00 pm—BANQUET Sebastian I and J Ballrooms, Level 1 INVOCATION MASTER OF CEREMONIES: Fredric K. Schroeder INTRODUCTIONS AND PRESENTATIONS BANQUET ADDRESS: Marc Maurer RECOGNIZING A CHAMPION IN THE STRUGGLE BY THE BLIND FOR FULL PARTICIPATION: THE HONORABLE CLIFFORD STEARNS, UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 6TH CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT; FLORIDA SCHOLARSHIP AWARDS 11:00 pm—SCIENCE FICTION MEETING All persons interested in science fiction and fantasy are welcome to join in an open discussion. Please contact Ed Meskys for room location. CONVENTION NOTES: Note 1. A Federation Information Desk is in the registration area from Monday morning through Friday if you have questions or need assistance. The Florida affiliate also maintains a table near the hotel check in desk in the main lobby to provide assistance and hospitality during much of the convention. Note 2. Rosen Shingle Creek room rates are: singles and doubles, $63; triples and quads, $67. In addition to the room rates, there is a 12.5 percent occupancy tax. There is no charge for children under sixteen in the room with parents as long as no extra bed is required. Proof of convention registration is necessary, including the showing of an NFB registration badge if requested. Otherwise, regular hotel rates must be paid. This is a non-smoking hotel; smoking is permitted only at specified areas outside. Note 3. Dog Relief Areas: There are two guide dog relief areas at the Shingle Creek hotel. The one closest to the sleeping room section is located outside lower lobby level at the rear side of the hotel toward the outdoor function space and pool area. The one closest to the meeting room section is located in the Panzacola-Sebastian wing on level one. Go past the Sebastian K and L Ballrooms (exhibits and Independence Market), exit through the doors across the end of the wing that lead to the event parking lot, and turn left. Note 4. All requests for announcements by President Maurer during General Sessions must be submitted in Braille. Note 5. Raffle tickets will not be sold in the registration area, and no raffles or other such drawings will take place during convention sessions or at the banquet. The single exception will be that national divisions may (if they request it in advance) conduct drawings during the sessions or at the banquet. Groups or affiliates wishing to conduct their drawings (or any person wishing to know the winners) may go at 12:00 noon on Friday to the Wekiwa 5 Room, Level 2. Note 6. Child-care services for children between the ages of six weeks and ten years are available during convention sessions, most meetings, and the banquet. Preregistration and payment by June 15 were required for child-care. Child-care is organized and supervised by Carla McQuillan, the executive director of Main Street Montessori Association. Alison McQuillan serves as the activities and staff coordinator. Please note that child-care provides morning and afternoon snacks, but parents are required to provide lunch for their child(ren) every day. Times listed are the opening and closing times for child-care. A late fee of $10 per quarter-hour per child will be assessed for late pickups. Child-care hours are: Sunday, 7/3 8:30 am to 12:30 pm and 1:30 to 5:30 pm Monday, 7/4 Closed Tuesday, 7/5 8:30 am to 12:30 pm and 1:30 to 5:30 pm Wednesday, 7/6 8:30 am to 12:30 pm and 1:30 to 5:30 pm Thursday, 7/7 8:30 am to 12:30 pm and 1:30 to 5:30 pm Friday, 7/8 8:30 am to 12:30 pm and 1:30 to 5:30 pm and Banquet 7/8 6:30 pm to 30 minutes after banquet ends Note 7. Divisions, Committees, and Groups: The Federation carries on its business through affiliated divisions, committees, and groups, which are listed below along with their presidents or chairpersons. Divisions: Agriculture and Equestrian: Fred Chambers, President; Assistive Technology Trainers: Michael Barber, President; Classics, Antiques, and Rods or Special Interest Vehicles (CARS): Joseph B. Naulty, President; Deaf-Blind: Burnell Brown, President; Diabetes Action Network for the Blind: Michael Freeman, President; Human Services: David Stayer, President; National Association of the Blind in Communities of Faith: Tom Anderson, President; National Association of Blind Entrepreneurs: James R. Bonerbo, Pres. National Association of Blind Lawyers: Scott LaBarre, President; National Association of Blind Merchants: Nicky Gacos, President; National Association of Blind Office Professionals: Lisa Hall, President; National Association of Blind Piano Technicians: Don Mitchell, President; National Association of Blind Rehabilitation Professionals: Melody Lindsey, President; National Association of Blind Students: Arielle Silverman, President; National Association of Blind Veterans: Dwight Sayer, President; National Association of Guide Dog Users: Marion Gwizdala, President; National Association to Promote the Use of Braille: Sandy Halverson, President; National Federation of the Blind Amateur Radio: D. Curtis Willoughby, Pres. National Federation of the Blind in Computer Science: Curtis Chong, Pres. National Federation of the Blind Krafters: Joyce Kane, President; National Federation of the Blind Seniors: Judy Sanders, President; National Organization of Blind Educators: Sheila Koenig, President; National Organization of Parents of Blind Children: Laura Weber, President; Performing Arts: Dennis H.R. Sumlin, President; Public Employees: Ivan Weich, President; Science and Engineering: John Miller, President; Sports and Recreation: Lisamaria Martinez, President; Travel and Tourism: Don Gillmore, President; Writers: Robert Leslie Newman, President. Committees: Ambassadors: Angela Wolf, Chairperson; Blind Educator of the Year Award: David Ticchi, Chairperson; Committee on Assistive Technology (COAT): Curtis Chong, Chairperson; Committee on Automobile and Pedestrian Safety (CAPS): Deborah Kent Stein, Chairperson; Committee to Empower Underserved Populations (CEUP): Ron Brown, Chairperson; Cultural Exchange and International Program: Diane McGeorge, Chairperson; Distinguished Educator of Blind Children Award: Cathy Jackson, Chairperson; Employment: Dick Davis, Chairperson; Genetic Education: Barbara Pierce, Chairperson; Imagination Fund: Parnell Diggs, Chairperson; Jacobus tenBroek Award: Ramona Walhof, Chairperson; Jacobus tenBroek Memorial Fund: Gary Mackenstadt, Chairperson; Joy Harris, Co-Chairperson; Kenneth Jernigan Fund: Allen Harris, Chairperson; Library Services: David Hyde, Chairperson; Loan Fund: Donald C. Capps, Chairperson; Membership: Ron Gardner, Chairperson; J.W. Smith, Co-Chairperson; Newel Perry Award: Allen Harris, Chairperson; Newsletter Publications: Robert Leslie Newman, Chairperson; PAC Plan: Scott LaBarre, Chairperson; Carlos Serván and Doug Trimble, Co- Chairpersons Planned Giving: John Halverson, Chairperson; Promotion, Evaluation, and Advancement of Technology: Gary Wunder, Chairperson; Public Relations: Christopher Danielsen, Chairperson; Research and Development: Hai Nguyen Ly, Chairperson; Resolutions: Sharon Maneki, Chairperson; Scholarship: Patti Chang, Chairperson; Shares Unlimited in NFB (SUN): Sandy Halverson, Chairperson; Spanish Translation: Norman Gardner, Chairperson; White Cane and Affiliate Finance: Alpidio Rolón, Chairperson. Groups: Blind Musicians: Linda Mentink, Chairperson; Blind Parents: Deborah Kent Stein, Chairperson; Blind Professional Journalists: Elizabeth Campbell and Bryan Bashin, Co-Chairpersons; Educators of Blind Children: Gail Wagner, Chairperson; Legislative Initiatives Discussion: Don Burns, Coordinator; Living History: Michael Freholm, Chairperson; NFB in Judaism: David Stayer, Chairperson; NFB Lions: Ramona Walhof and Milton Ota, Co-Chairpersons; Orientation and Mobility: Edward C. Bell, Chairperson; Professionals in Blindness Education: Annee Hartzell, Chairperson Webmasters: Gary Wunder, Chairperson. NAVIGATING THE HOTEL (An article by Mary Ellen Jernigan reprinted from the May Monitor) In recent years I have written a description of the layout of the convention hotel. Although I have tried, I haven’t been able to come up with an image as memorable as “a high top tennis shoe lying on its side” to picture the footprint of the Hotel. Nor can I speak easily in terms of north, south, east, and west, because if you were to walk in the front door with compass in hand (which I did), you would find that you were heading not south, not east, or even southeast, but a little east of southeast—120 degrees to be exact. The first thing to understand about the Hotel is that the meeting rooms are located in an area that is totally separate from the part of the Hotel that contains the sleeping rooms. The sleeping room elevators do not go to the meeting room levels. This means that the starting place to find any meeting room is always the main lobby. When you have come in the front door, the Hotel registration desk is located to your left along the same wall as the front door. Directly across from the front door toward the far side of the lobby you will find the Birdcage. The Birdcage is a tall, free-standing structure about three feet across filled with colorful, chirping, tropical birds, and is used by Hotel staff and guests alike as a major landmark and meeting place. Just beyond the Birdcage is a balcony railing overlooking the level below. Since the odd compass orientation of the Hotel makes speaking of facing, turning, or walking north, south, east, or west not particularly meaningful, I will use the following terms in describing the lobby: front door side of the lobby, balcony side of the lobby, facing the balcony, facing the front door, and standing at the Birdcage. There are two sets of elevators in the main lobby. One set serves the lobby level, the lower lobby level, and floors 1 through 10. These elevators are located inside of a short, free-standing elevator corridor which is perpendicular to and directly across from the Hotel check-in desk. The corridor has an opening at both ends—one end opening toward the Hotel check-in desk, and the other end opening toward the balcony side of the lobby. If you turn right as you exit the elevator corridor at the balcony end of the corridor, you will be heading directly toward the Birdcage. The second set of elevators serves the lobby level, the lower lobby level, and floors 10 through 14. To find this set of elevators from the front door, cross the lobby to the Birdcage (at this point you will be facing the balcony rail overlooking the lower level) and turn right, walking until you dead end at a display case outside of the entrance to the Cala Bella restaurant. The elevators are now immediately on your right. The numbering system for the sleeping rooms is based on the floor and the wing in which the room is located, with the floor number given first followed by the wing designation and then the room number. On each sleeping room floor as you leave the elevator area there is a tactile placard on the wall giving a diagram of the wing layout. The letters and numbers can be read tactilely. If you are standing at the Birdcage facing the balcony rail, the staircase leading down to the lower level will be to your right along the balcony rail. Farther to your right is the fine dining Italian bistro Cala Bella. If you are facing the balcony rail and turn left at the Birdcage you will be walking along the balcony side of the lobby. You would pass the opening into the 1 to 10 elevator corridor on your left, and then continuing on you would find the Concierge on your right. Immediately beyond the Concierge’s desk is a small single elevator which serves only the lobby level, the lower lobby level, and sleeping rooms located on the third floor. Just beyond this elevator is the entrance into the spa. In this corner of the lobby you will also find men’s and women’s rest rooms and a staircase leading to the third floor sleeping rooms. Located on the lower level of the lobby is the large Café Osceola, which is open for breakfast, lunch, and dinner offering both buffets and ala carte menu options. Also on this level is the 18 Monroe Street Market. This market is open 24 hours a day and is a combination of convenience store and quick-service restaurant. The restaurant part of the operation opens at 6:30 a.m. and continues well into the evening, offering hot and cold deli-style sandwiches, salads, pizza, hot entrées and desserts either for dine-in or take-out to your room or the outside eating area near the pools. This is a large area containing tables and chairs. The Hotel fitness room is also located on the lower lobby level. The Hotel swimming pools and hot tubs, outdoor function space, and recreation areas, and the Cat-tails Pool Bar and Grille are all accessed from the lower lobby level. All of this outdoor space is located on the rear side. Outside on the front entrance side at the lobby level is a stand-alone facility housing a restaurant called A Land Remembered, and the Shingle Creek Clubhouse Grille. As you leave the Hotel, a long covered walkway to the right of the front entrance leads to these restaurants. The Clubhouse Grille is open for lunch from 11:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. A Land Remembered is open for dinner only. MEETING SPACE The meeting space is connected to the main lobby and sleeping room section by a wide passageway accessed only from the lobby level. Standing at the Birdcage facing the front door side of the Hotel, walking forward across the lobby, and making a left turn just before going out the front door places you at the entrance to the passageway connecting the lobby and meeting space. Or if you are coming into the Hotel through the front door, making a right turn immediately after passing the bell stand will place you at the entrance to this passageway. Along both sides of the passageway are restaurants and shops. Walking toward the meeting space, the first thing on your left will be Smooth Java, a full-service coffee bar featuring Starbucks coffees; followed by The Headwaters Lounge which serves appetizers, salads, and sandwiches, as well as beverages; and finally the Banrai Sushi Restaurant. The right side of the passageway as you walk toward the meeting space has a Guest Services counter where you can obtain tickets and transportation to various local attractions or arrange for an Enterprise rental car, followed by a number of retail shops, and the Tobias Flats and Watering Hole serving soups, salads, grilled flatbread sandwiches, and desserts. After passing by the retail shops and eateries, you come to a large Rotunda which serves as the entryway to the Hotel’s meeting space sometimes referred to as the “Convention Center.” Continuing straight ahead, crossing the Rotunda to the far side, you will find a wide, short flight of steps leading up to Level 2 of the meeting space. At the base of the steps to the right and the left are escalators and staircases leading down to Level 1 of the meeting space. The escalator and staircase on your right take you to the Panzacola-Sebastian wing of the meeting space on Level 1. All of our meetings and activities on Level 1 are in the Panzacola-Sebastian wing. The escalator and staircase on your left lead to the Gatlin wing of the Level 1 meeting space. A small escalator located to the right of the steps also leads up to Level 2 of the meeting space. None of our meetings or activities takes place in the Gatlin wing. Should you go down that escalator or staircase on your left, you cannot get to our meeting space in the Panzacola-Sebastian wing except by coming back up to the Rotunda and taking the other escalator or staircase leading to the Panzacola-Sebastian wing. With respect to the escalator and staircase, the staircase is located between the up escalator and the down escalator. A small elevator also serves the meeting space in the Panzacola-Sebastian wing on Level 1, the Rotunda, and the meeting space on Level 2. Please note that there is also a small elevator that goes from Level 2 to the Rotunda and to the Gatlin wing on Level 1. This means that should you happen to take the Gatlin wing elevator from Level 2, you would need to get off at the Rotunda. Remember, if you end up in the Gatlin wing (either by taking the wrong elevator, the wrong staircase, or the wrong escalator), you need to return to the Rotunda to get to the Panzacola-Sebastian wing. Level 2 of the meeting space is also served by two short escalators going only between the Rotunda and Level 2—the down escalator being found near the small elevator serving the Panzacola-Sebastian wing, and the up escalator being found near the small elevator serving the Gatlin wing. If you continue straight ahead after you reach the top of the short flight of steps leading to Level 2, you enter a corridor containing the ten Wekiwa meeting rooms. These rooms are along both sides of the corridor with 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 on the right, and 10, 9, 8, 7, and 6 on the left. If at the top of the steps you were to turn left and continue walking until you cannot go farther and then turn right, you enter a corridor containing the eleven Suwannee meeting rooms. These rooms are along both sides of the corridor with 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15 on the right side, and 21, 20, 19, 18, 17, and 16 on the left. There are restrooms just ahead of you before you make the right turn into the Suwannee meeting room corridor. Also located on Level 2 are the St. John’s meeting rooms, but we do not use the St. John’s rooms for any of our meetings. The General Sessions, the Board meeting, the Banquet, the Exhibit Hall (which this year includes the Independence Market), Registration and Preregistration, Resolutions Committee meeting, and a number of our other activities and meetings are located on Level 1 in the Panzacola-Sebastian wing. The Panzacola-Sebastian wing contains the Panzacola ballroom and the Sebastian ballroom—both of which divide up into many smaller meeting room sections. The names of the sections of the Panzacola ballroom begin with F, G, or H. The sections of the Sebastian ballroom begin with I, J, K, or L. As you enter the Panzacola-Sebastian wing from the escalator, staircase, or small elevator you are entering an L-shaped passageway. As you continue walking straight ahead, you are walking along the short arm of the ‘L.’ The Panzacola meeting rooms F-4, F-3, F-2, and F-1 (in that order) will be on your left. There will be no rooms on your right. This short arm of the ‘L’ is about 200 feet long and ends at the Panzacola registration counter. (We are not using the Panzacola registration counter, but it is a good landmark to use to find the intersection of the long and short arms of the ‘L.’) Turning left at the Panzacola registration counter, you enter the very long (about 500 feet) arm of the ‘L.’ Along the left side of the long arm of the ‘L’ passageway (also known as the Panzacola-Sebastian Pre-function area) will be entryways (in this order) to the Panzacola G and H rooms, and the Sebastian I, J, K, and L rooms. Along the right side of the passageway are glass doors and windows to the outside of the Hotel, restrooms, and the Sebastian registration counter. Preregistration on Monday, July 4, will be at the Sebastian registration counter. Registration on Monday, July 4, for those who have not preregistered will be farther down the ‘L’ beyond the Sebastian registration counter. Later in the week, all registration will be at the Sebastian registration counter. During much of the convention, the Hotel plans to offer buffet-type fast food service (quick breakfasts, beverages, soups, sandwiches, salads, chips, and perhaps some hot entrées) in the Panzacola-Sebastian Pre-function area. General Sessions will be held in Sebastian I and J. The Exhibit Hall will be in Sebastian K and L, which is the last section of the Sebastian ballroom at the very far end of the 500-foot passageway. Doors across the far end of the passageway lead outside to the Event Parking Lot, where the CARS Division Auto Show and the Blind Driver Challenge demonstrations will take place. Exiting these doors and turning left will lead to another dog relief area. As I bring this article to a close, I offer one final navigation tip. If after studying this material you remember only one thing—it should be this: To go to any meeting of any kind from inside the Hotel you must get yourself to the Rotunda. See you at the Rotunda! Thank You... The National Federation of the Blind acknowledges with gratitude our Title, Platinum, Gold, Silver, Bronze, and White Cane Convention Sponsors listed below. Their messages follow. Title Sponsor: eBay, Inc. Platinum Sponsors: HumanWare UPS Gold Sponsors: Oracle Market Development Group, Inc. Ingram Content Group and VitalSource Technologies Silver Sponsor: Freedom Scientific Bronze Sponsors: IBM National Industries for the Blind Research in Motion White Cane Sponsors: GW Micro, Inc. Toyota HIMS Sendero Group Learning Ally (formerly Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic) LevelStar Independence Science C AND P (Chris Park Design) En-Vision America -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2011_Agenda_FINAL.doc Type: application/msword Size: 3041280 bytes Desc: not available URL: From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Mon May 23 15:34:08 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 11:34:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction In-Reply-To: <4dd8027f.05a2e60a.3528.64fa@mx.google.com> References: <4dd8027f.05a2e60a.3528.64fa@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <952F8B61403B41A08F3B14C23DE4012D@OwnerPC> I usually have my classmate email me their paper either the day before or even just in class and can edit and send it back. I also email them my paper so I can see their suggestions when they send it back to me. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 2:20 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction Ashley, You bring up an interesting issue. My middle school, too does peer editing of papers, where we hook up with a partner and read and make revisions to each other's handwritten rough drafts before we type them for our final copy. But if you're mainstreamed in a class with sighted people, how do you handle those situations? I have to resort to a reader because my instructional assistant wouldn't have time to scan and Braille it. But are there ways that you all handle these peer editing times independently? Do you request your partner's paper ahead of time and scan it into Kurzweil or OpenBook? Will those OCR softwares scan handwritten materials? In college, are even rough drafts typed into a computer, so you ask your partner to email their draft to you? I would be interested to hear all of your strategies! By the way, I hope to see many of you on the call tomorrow! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Hi everyone. I have not yet made a final decision about the university where I'm going to study the master's Degree. I just have an additional question: According to your experience, is it better to live on campus, or off campus? Thank you! -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga en Inglés y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright para Maestría. From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Mon May 23 17:12:28 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 11:12:28 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] An additional question about selecting universities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Adriana, I think that boils down to personal preference, pure and simple. I think lots of students spend their freshmen and maybe sophomore years on campus, then move off-campus to an apartment instead of a dorm. I just finished Freshman year, where I lived in an on-campus dorm. The good things were lots of social activities and things to keep me busy, I made some great friends, and classes were only a five minute walk away, give or take a couple minutes. The bad things were there was pretty much no privacy, doing homework with parties happening all around you requires lots of discipline and self-control and you can hardly find alone time ever. But I think it's a good way for new, younger students like Freshmen to kind of get used to college...but, as a general rule, I think if you're not jumping in to college for the first time, off-campus is better in most cases. Hope that helps, Kirt On 5/23/11, ADRIANA PULIDO wrote: > Hi everyone. > > I have not yet made a final decision about the university where I'm > going to study the master's Degree. I just have an additional > question: > According to your experience, is it better to live on campus, or off campus? > > Thank you! > > -- > Adriana Pulido > Filóloga en Inglés y músico de la Universidad > Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright para Maestría. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From th404 at comcast.net Mon May 23 17:23:36 2011 From: th404 at comcast.net (Tina Hansen) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 10:23:36 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] 2011 National Federation of The Blind Convention Ajenda! References: Message-ID: <6CD842246B6247CC9F0C30BEC66E3FA0@tinad85eb5cc31> Thanks for posting that. Hey, did anyone notice the new format? I like it. Thanks. From ignasicambra at gmail.com Mon May 23 18:10:14 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 14:10:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An additional question about selecting universities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <357B37CD-98CA-46FF-8267-3EAA1049834B@gmail.com> If you are going to school for masters, I think it's better to go off campus. Most dorms are generally full of freshmen and many grad students find that they can't focus etc. I'm not implying that there's anything wrong with freshmen, of course! But many graduate students end up going off campus. An other good solution are on campus apartments. You are not in a dorm anymore and you have your own apartment with your own kitchen etc. Those are generally very expensive though, because they are convenient in many ways and they want you to pay for that :). In the end it all depends on where you go to school. If you decide that you don't want to live on campus but you end up going somewhere that makes it very complicated for you to go to class every day, you will be in a worse situation than if you stay in a dorm and have to deal with the typical dorm inconveniences. On May 23, 2011, at 1:12 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Adriana, > I think that boils down to personal preference, pure and simple. I > think lots of students spend their freshmen and maybe sophomore years > on campus, then move off-campus to an apartment instead of a dorm. I > just finished Freshman year, where I lived in an on-campus dorm. The > good things were lots of social activities and things to keep me busy, > I made some great friends, and classes were only a five minute walk > away, give or take a couple minutes. The bad things were there was > pretty much no privacy, doing homework with parties happening all > around you requires lots of discipline and self-control and you can > hardly find alone time ever. But I think it's a good way for new, > younger students like Freshmen to kind of get used to college...but, > as a general rule, I think if you're not jumping in to college for the > first time, off-campus is better in most cases. > Hope that helps, > Kirt > > On 5/23/11, ADRIANA PULIDO wrote: >> Hi everyone. >> >> I have not yet made a final decision about the university where I'm >> going to study the master's Degree. I just have an additional >> question: >> According to your experience, is it better to live on campus, or off campus? >> >> Thank you! >> >> -- >> Adriana Pulido >> Filóloga en Inglés y músico de la Universidad >> Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright para Maestría. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon May 23 20:05:11 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 16:05:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] national convention agenda Message-ID: <4ddabe30.5069e50a.7aee.ffffcfb7@mx.google.com> Hi, all. Yesterday, a post came through to the NABS list with the National Convention agenda attached in a Word document along with a link to download it. On one of the lists I forwarded this to, however, someone had trouble with the link. So, as I said I would do on the NABS conference call last night, I've attached the agenda in: a Keyword document for the BrailleNote, a Word document, a plain text (or ASCII text) file, a plain Braille (BRF) file, and a rich text (RTF) file, so hopefuly everyone can access it. Hope this helps! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2011_Agenda_FINAL.doc Type: application/octet-stream Size: 195369 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2011_Agenda_FINAL.txt Type: application/octet-stream Size: 80846 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2011_Agenda_FINAL.brf Type: application/octet-stream Size: 72876 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2011_Agenda_FINAL.rtf Type: application/octet-stream Size: 195369 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2011_Agenda_FINAL.kwb Type: application/octet-stream Size: 204083 bytes Desc: not available URL: From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Mon May 23 21:06:13 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 17:06:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <4dd9404d.52a3e60a.620f.73d0@mx.google.com> References: <4dd9404d.52a3e60a.620f.73d0@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <13E549C8-70D6-473D-8A96-B376968A58F7@gmail.com> Oh LOL. No, I typed that message out in braile. 6 means capital, etc. Its a regular message but it was written in braille, kinda like Curt's = computer braille writing. On May 22, 2011, at 12:56 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: > Jorge, uh... I'd say that was bets for the Preekness (haha I cannot = even spell it) but I don't think that's how they go. If you want I'll = look it up and write you offlist. > Josh >=20 > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list = Date sent: Sun, 22 May 2011 10:46:09 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >=20 > 6 24 2345'234 135 13. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On May 22, 2011, at 1:52 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >=20 > "! was ? "o "t I op5$ a brf file 9 notepad, & x look$ "s?+ l ?...I'll > stop now, sorry. >=20 > On 5/21/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home = wrote: > Not quite. He was writing in the Grade 2 dot combinations in the = Computer > Braille context, hence the context part. >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Josh Gregory" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:43 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >=20 >=20 > Me too, it was: I hate computer braille but I use it all the > time, and he was typing in computer braille. > Josh >=20 > sent from my Apex > Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:37:17 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >=20 > Hahaha. If anyone did not get that, I can explain. >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:23 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >=20 >=20 > I hate -put} brl b I use x all ! "t *smile* >=20 > On 5/21/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > Um... can you explain that one? Personally, I find it useable. > Even though I hate having to type it into web sites. > Josh >=20 > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Freeman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:31:34 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >=20 > Computer Braille is an abomination -- but I use it. >=20 > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone >=20 >=20 > On May 21, 2011, at 13:58, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" > wrote: >=20 > *NO.* > Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer > Braille and Nemeth is the very reason that I started this > thread. >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:29 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >=20 >=20 > Well, > could we perhaps fuze the standards for Nemith and computer > braille? > Make it just one code? >=20 >=20 >=20 > On May 21, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >=20 > Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, > such > a goal is a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers > are used that the code becomes unwieldy. >=20 > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone >=20 >=20 > On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens wrote: >=20 > Hi Chris, > I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. > In print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. > In braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and > letters depending on context. The unified system would > theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to > determine > what a text says, making it more like print. >=20 > The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to > learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, > and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is > rather clunky and unwieldy. >=20 > I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified > code would be better than the current systems used. But having > one code does seem like it might simplify things. >=20 > Just my thoughts, > Greg >=20 > On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, ?=82ris Nusbaum wrote: >=20 > Hi Greg, >=20 > My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, > don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for > literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are > different symbols for different operations in math than they are > in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is > affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? >=20 > Chris >=20 > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities > motto) >=20 > --- Sent from my BrailleNote >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Greg Aikens To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >=20 > Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the > code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with > literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended > by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have > not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so > I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction > here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools > can be improved and better used in general though. >=20 > As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of > unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which > integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a > challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new > code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than > mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. >=20 > -Greg >=20 >=20 > On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >=20 > i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. > I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being > changed, or it becoming obsilete. > Nemeth Code will stay around! > I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! > Blessings, Joshua >=20 >=20 > On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably > the > main > reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college > Algebra. >=20 > On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >=20 > Mike >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM > To: NABS-L > Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >=20 > Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in > general. What > about the future of Nemeth? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: >=20 >=20 > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: >=20 >=20 > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: >=20 >=20 > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 > 62%40students.pccua.edu >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: >=20 >=20 > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: >=20 >=20 > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: >=20 >=20 > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% > 40gmail.com >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: >=20 >=20 > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: >=20 >=20 > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepaez%40gmail.com >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or 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From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue May 24 00:13:31 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 19:13:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] BISM In-Reply-To: <201105221656.p4MGu3OO001271@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> References: <201105221656.p4MGu3OO001271@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: Michelle, it's Joshua Lester. I sent you an E-mail, that you didn't respond to. Please contact me offlist. Thanks, Joshua On 5/22/11, Michelle Clark wrote: > Just a note to comment on what someone has said here regarding what BISM in > Maryland stands for. I also attended BISM. When I attended, BISM stood for > Blind Industries and Services of Maryland. I am not certain that that has > changed. > > Michelle > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From liziswhatis at hotmail.com Tue May 24 00:26:40 2011 From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 19:26:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] An additional question about selecting universities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As a grad student, for me, off-campus is crucial. I live in a townhouse that is very close to the building wherein all of my classes are held. Take care. Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ADRIANA PULIDO Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 11:44 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] An additional question about selecting universities Hi everyone. I have not yet made a final decision about the university where I'm going to study the master's Degree. I just have an additional question: According to your experience, is it better to live on campus, or off campus? Thank you! -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga en Inglés y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright para Maestría. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai l.com From nabs.president at gmail.com Tue May 24 01:34:59 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 19:34:59 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: New scholarship for students interested in assistive technology In-Reply-To: <6F286A6C9B4AA14BBE08BAC534B5C9007AB2B75950@ROGUE.DOMAIN.nib.org> References: <6F286A6C9B4AA14BBE08BAC534B5C9007AB2B75950@ROGUE.DOMAIN.nib.org> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Hurley, Brian" Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 16:36:14 -0400 Subject: New scholarship for students interested in assistive technology To: Arielle Silverman Hello Arielle, If possible, could you distribute the attached document offering details about a new scholarship for students interested in assistive technology? We are offering the scholarship on behalf of Joe Roeder - a visionary in assistive technology who recently passed away and worked at NIB. Regards, Brian Hurley Public Affairs Program Director National Industries for the Blind 1310 Braddock Place Alexandria, VA 22314 Work Phone : 703-310-0327 Mobile Phone: 703-303-4721 Website: http://www.nib.org -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Roeder AT Scholarship 051111.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 12891 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chelseap08 at gmail.com Tue May 24 02:13:31 2011 From: chelseap08 at gmail.com (C Page) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 21:13:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction In-Reply-To: <0F9C90B221BE4E0EADC22CC2B61C5F16@SerenaPC> References: <4dd7068d.81a5e60a.15cc.5689@mx.google.com> <0F9C90B221BE4E0EADC22CC2B61C5F16@SerenaPC> Message-ID: I recently attended Ashford University and it was a huge mistake. They practiced fraud by telling me that I would be ready for my Praxis when I graduated and I found out that was not the case. I also acrewed a huge bill from them as VR doesn't cover them fully. Bottom line is if you decide to take online classes, do your research. On 5/20/11, Serena Cucco wrote: > Hi Josh, > > I'm in grad school. I lived on campus in college and live here at home for > grad school. I've done quite well taking in-class courses. I have to take > 2 online this summer. We'll see how they go. > > As far as the wheelchair factor, I suppose the practicality of living on > campus would depend on your reason for using a wheelchair. Although I'm not > a wheelchair user myself, one of my sighted friends from college is. He > lived on campus ... His using a wheelchair never stopped him! He's quite > mature and approachable. If you have any specific wheelchair-related > questions, I'm sure he'd be happy to answer them, either through me or > possibly directly. > > Serena > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Josh Gregory > Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 8:25 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] online college vs classroom instruction > > Hi all, > I'm a little curious here, what do people think on this? For us > blind students who are about to graduate from high school soon > (I'm a junior this year and will be a senior next) college is > something some of us look into. So, my question: Do people think > that online college is more accessible for blind people, or > classroom instruction? If I may ask, what have people's > experiences been with both? What about a person who is blind and > partially in a wheelchair such as myself, could I manage in an > on-campus environment or would online instruction be better for > me? > Thanks so much, > Josh > > Sent from my Apex > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serena.c.cucco%40gma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/chelseap08%40gmail.com > -- Chelsea Page (601)618-5170 From treyman19 at gmail.com Tue May 24 04:02:44 2011 From: treyman19 at gmail.com (Trey Bradley) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 23:02:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Pac-Mate omni Message-ID: Hi I am sarry this is off toppic. I have a Pac-Omni BX without the Braille It has minor pproblems since it is used I am asking $450 and if I can go down to a lower price I can do $340 You can call me at 1219-577-2367 or email address treyman19 at gmail.com I also have a Book-Sense Standard with a 16 GB Sd Card and it will come with a wall charger, usb cord -- Roosevelt Bradley From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue May 24 04:14:02 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 23:14:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Pac-Mate omni In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Trey! Hi, it's Joshua Lester. Remember me from Lions World? Welcome to the list! Please E-mail me offlist. Blessings, Joshua On 5/23/11, Trey Bradley wrote: > Hi I am sarry this is off toppic. I have a Pac-Omni BX without the Braille > It has minor pproblems since it is used I am asking $450 and if I can > go down to a lower price I can do $340 You can call me at > 1219-577-2367 or email address treyman19 at gmail.com I also have a > Book-Sense Standard with a 16 GB Sd Card and it will come with a wall > charger, usb cord > -- > Roosevelt Bradley > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Tue May 24 16:14:36 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 12:14:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] another learning ally question In-Reply-To: <06F3232F-AAAD-4D07-801E-08333B2479D2@panix.com> References: <4dd87326.8d8de50a.1b32.ffffa4ce@mx.google.com> <06F3232F-AAAD-4D07-801E-08333B2479D2@panix.com> Message-ID: Hey Mike, well I've only got like 2 more months, so I'll wait. Thanks for the info, didn't know about that. And there's also a set of lists where you have to put your birthday, so that wouldn't work. Good point about how that wouldn't be telling the truth, Ashley. Josh On 5/22/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > He could lose the privilege of using the service forever if found out. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 22, 2011, at 0:37, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > >> Hmmm... Why don't you just check the checkbox and forget about it? I >> mean...really... >> On May 21, 2011, at 10:21 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> On the ally sign-up page, there's a checkbox that says "please certify >>> that the person completing this form is at least 18" or something like >>> that. I assume that means that only a person that's either 18 or older >>> can fill out the form and sign up, am I correct in this assumption? >>> Thanks, >>> Josh >>> >>> Sent from my Apex >>> >>> Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > -- The Ever-curious Master Yoda Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Tue May 24 16:15:47 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 12:15:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? In-Reply-To: <13E549C8-70D6-473D-8A96-B376968A58F7@gmail.com> References: <4dd9404d.52a3e60a.620f.73d0@mx.google.com> <13E549C8-70D6-473D-8A96-B376968A58F7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Oh I see, Jorge. :) Josh On 5/23/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > Oh LOL. > No, > I typed that message out in braile. > 6 means capital, etc. > Its a regular message but it was written in braille, kinda like Curt's > computer braille writing. > > > On May 22, 2011, at 12:56 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: > >> Jorge, uh... I'd say that was bets for the Preekness (haha I cannot even >> spell it) but I don't think that's how they go. If you want I'll look it >> up and write you offlist. >> Josh >> >> sent from my Apex >> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jorge Paez > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 22 May 2011 10:46:09 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> 6 24 2345'234 135 13. >> >> >> >> >> >> On May 22, 2011, at 1:52 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >> "! was ? "o "t I op5$ a brf file 9 notepad, & x look$ "s?+ l ?...I'll >> stop now, sorry. >> >> On 5/21/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: >> Not quite. He was writing in the Grade 2 dot combinations in the Computer >> Braille context, hence the context part. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Josh Gregory" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:43 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> >> Me too, it was: I hate computer braille but I use it all the >> time, and he was typing in computer braille. >> Josh >> >> sent from my Apex >> Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:37:17 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Hahaha. If anyone did not get that, I can explain. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kirt Manwaring" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:23 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> >> I hate -put} brl b I use x all ! "t *smile* >> >> On 5/21/11, Josh Gregory wrote: >> Um... can you explain that one? Personally, I find it useable. >> Even though I hate having to type it into web sites. >> Josh >> >> sent from my Apex >> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Mike Freeman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:31:34 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Computer Braille is an abomination -- but I use it. >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 21, 2011, at 13:58, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" >> wrote: >> >> *NO.* >> Problems with people trying to use a mixture of Computer >> Braille and Nemeth is the very reason that I started this >> thread. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 1:29 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> >> Well, >> could we perhaps fuze the standards for Nemith and computer >> braille? >> Make it just one code? >> >> >> >> On May 21, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >> >> Given the paucity of dot combinations available in Braille, >> such >> a goal is a pipe-dream unless so many indicators and modifiers >> are used that the code becomes unwieldy. >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 22:25, Greg Aikens > wrote: >> >> Hi Chris, >> I think the point you make is the idea behind a unified code. >> In print, different symbols are used for math and for letters. >> In braille, we use the same symbols to represent both math and >> letters depending on context. The unified system would >> theoretically eliminate much of the need for context to >> determine >> what a text says, making it more like print. >> >> The appeal of a unified code is that there is only one code to >> learn, instead of learning one code for reading, one for math, >> and one for computer symbols. Computer braille, for example, is >> rather clunky and unwieldy. >> >> I don't really have a strong opinion about whether a unified >> code would be better than the current systems used. But having >> one code does seem like it might simplify things. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> Greg >> >> On May 20, 2011, at 3:19 PM, ?굍is Nusbaum wrote: >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> My only counterpoint to that suggestion (which is a good one, >> don't get me wrong) is that there are different symbols for >> literary and math print as far as I know. In print, there are >> different symbols for different operations in math than they are >> in Nemeth. If anyone is a Braille/print expert here or is >> affiliated with BANA, could you confirm or clarify this for me? >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities >> motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Greg Aikens > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:43:53 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Actually, Dr. Nemeth has continued to update and change the >> code, trying to integrate it as seamlessly as possible with >> literary braille. I would be surprised if he would be offended >> by a discussion of the future of his code. Admittedly, I have >> not followed the threads talking about the future of braille, so >> I probably don't understand the context for Joshua's reaction >> here. I do think its good to think critically about how tools >> can be improved and better used in general though. >> >> As far as the original question, I do hope that some kind of >> unified braille system will be adopted in the U.S. which >> integrates math and literary braille. This seems like a >> challenging problem to solve, and widespread adoption of a new >> code will take quite a while, but fortunately better minds than >> mine, such as Dr. Nemeth, have started working on this problem. >> >> -Greg >> >> >> On May 19, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> >> i had the honor of meeting Dr. Nemeth, last year, in Dallas. >> I'm sure he'd hate to hear of us talking about his code, being >> changed, or it becoming obsilete. >> Nemeth Code will stay around! >> I learned math, with it, and it's the way to go! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> >> On 5/19/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> I'm with Mike here. Nemeth is absolutely brilliant-probably >> the >> main >> reason (aside from awesome tutors) I was able to pass college >> Algebra. >> >> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> It'll stay around if I have anything to do with it. >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:53 PM >> To: NABS-L >> Subject: [nabs-l] The Future of Nemeth? >> >> Many people have been talking about the future of Braille in >> general. What >> about the future of Nemeth? >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz >> ydude%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 >> 62%40students.pccua.edu >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens% >> 40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 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or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin >> i%40wavecable.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >> for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >> 2%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin >> i%40wavecable.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >> 2%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------------- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolin >> i%40wavecable.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >> echjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >> 2%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > -- The Ever-curious Master Yoda Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com From aec732 at msn.com Tue May 24 18:57:12 2011 From: aec732 at msn.com (Annemarie Cooke) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 14:57:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] reply to Learning Ally question from Josh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Mike; you beat me to the punch but you're correct. Lying on the application form can result in permanent revocation of Learning Ally membership privileges. See you in Orlando! And...Josh, f you have additional questions, you or anyone can message me off-list at: aec732 at gmail.com Many thanks, Annemarie Cooke Learning Ally consultant From joshkart12 at gmail.com Tue May 24 19:00:00 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 15:00:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] reply to Learning Ally question from Josh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks AnneMarie! Josh On 5/24/11, Annemarie Cooke wrote: > > Thanks, Mike; you beat me to the punch but you're correct. Lying on the > application form can result in permanent revocation of Learning Ally > membership privileges. > See you in Orlando! > And...Josh, f you have additional questions, you or anyone can message me > off-list at: aec732 at gmail.com > Many thanks, > Annemarie Cooke > Learning Ally consultant > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > -- The Ever-curious Master Yoda Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue May 24 19:58:18 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 15:58:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blind flyers' claims over airport kiosks Message-ID: <4ddc0df0.8859340a.405d.68b5@mx.google.com> And back to court we go... just to be dismissed! Hope they appeal! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ---- Original Message ------ From: "Sherri" Hi, all, Unfortunately, I'm not going to this year's National Convention in Orlando because of family stuff. * Frown! Seeing all the things that will be going on at Convention and the many seminars taking place, I'd like to keep up to date with everything and know what's going on even though I'm not going. I don't know, maybe part of it is so I can be even more jealous of those of you who are going. * Smile! So, if those of you who are going can keep the rest of us who aren't going posted on what's going on by posting to the lists, that would be awesome! You don't need to post about everything, just the big events that happened on a certain day at convention and what you liked personally. Also, I know a lot of the seminars are recorded and posted on the Web site, but do you know if there's a live stream of the convention that we can listen to online? Thanks! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote From adrimpc80 at gmail.com Tue May 24 20:13:36 2011 From: adrimpc80 at gmail.com (ADRIANA PULIDO) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 15:13:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] An additional question about selecting universities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you all! 2011/5/23, Liz Bottner : > As a grad student, for me, off-campus is crucial. I live in a townhouse that > is very close to the building wherein all of my classes are held. > > Take care. > > Liz Bottner > Guiding Eyes Graduate Council > GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 > e-mail: > liziswhatis at hotmail.com > Visit my LiveJournal: > http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com > Follow me on Twitter: > http://twitter.com/lizbot > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of ADRIANA PULIDO > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 11:44 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] An additional question about selecting universities > > Hi everyone. > > I have not yet made a final decision about the university where I'm > going to study the master's Degree. I just have an additional > question: > According to your experience, is it better to live on campus, or off campus? > > Thank you! > > -- > Adriana Pulido > Filóloga en Inglés y músico de la Universidad > Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright para Maestría. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrimpc80%40gmail.com > -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga en Inglés y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright para Maestría. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue May 24 20:18:40 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 16:18:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention- please keep the rest of us posted In-Reply-To: <4ddc0dee.8859340a.405d.68b4@mx.google.com> References: <4ddc0dee.8859340a.405d.68b4@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <95A6C0AA165C48F4953E7BFBC0773572@OwnerPC> In years past they streamed the main sessions, banquet and march. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 3:58 PM To: NABS list ; Blind Talk list ; NFB Talk list ; NFBMD list Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention- please keep the rest of us posted Hi, all, Unfortunately, I'm not going to this year's National Convention in Orlando because of family stuff. * Frown! Seeing all the things that will be going on at Convention and the many seminars taking place, I'd like to keep up to date with everything and know what's going on even though I'm not going. I don't know, maybe part of it is so I can be even more jealous of those of you who are going. * Smile! So, if those of you who are going can keep the rest of us who aren't going posted on what's going on by posting to the lists, that would be awesome! You don't need to post about everything, just the big events that happened on a certain day at convention and what you liked personally. Also, I know a lot of the seminars are recorded and posted on the Web site, but do you know if there's a live stream of the convention that we can listen to online? Thanks! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Tue May 24 21:32:31 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:32:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blind flyers' claims over airport kiosks In-Reply-To: <4ddc0df0.8859340a.405d.68b5@mx.google.com> References: <4ddc0df0.8859340a.405d.68b5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <9F4AE5C5-F362-4E42-8851-A9F4840FD445@gmail.com> Hmmm. Two quick questions though. 1. the checkout counters, do they still exist in the airport? I mean--not that I'm defending United Airways or anything, but trying to figure out why we got thrown out. And secondly: as far as the acts, shouldn't we sue the US department of transportation since the airports are technically on federal property? I mean--yes its US's terminal but they don't have any control over the checkin mechanisms do they? On May 24, 2011, at 3:58 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > And back to court we go... just to be dismissed! Hope they appeal! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ---- Original Message ------ > From: "Sherri" Subject: [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blind flyers' claims over airport kiosks > Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 02:22:38 -0400 > > I'm sure we'll think of some other way to solve this problem. > > Sherri > > > Westlaw Journal Aviation > Federal law preempts blind flyers' claims over airport kiosks > 5/23/2011 COMMENTS (0) > > > May 23 (Westlaw Journals) - Federal law preempts a class action brought by > the National Federation of the Blind and several visually impaired people > over the accessibility of airport ticketing kiosks, a California federal > judge has ruled. > > U.S. District Judge William Alsup of the Northern District of California > dismissed the NFB's lawsuit, finding the claims preempted by the Air Carrier > Access Act and the Airline Deregulation Act. > > The NFB and other plaintiffs alleged United Airlines violates California > disability law by failing to make airport ticketing kiosks accessible to the > blind. > > According to the complaint, the kiosks employ a visual computer screen with > prompts and touch-screen navigation but do not offer an audio output or > other medium to make the kiosks accessible to the blind. > > The plaintiffs brought their class action on behalf of all legally blind > people in the United States who have flown on United from a California > airport and have been unable to use the airline's kiosks. > > United moved for dismissal, arguing that the Airline Deregulation Act and > the Air Carrier Access Act preempt the plaintiffs' claims. > > Judge Alsup agreed. > > The claims are field-preempted under the ACAA because the Department of > Transportation pervasively regulates airport kiosk accessibility, he said. > > In addition, the Airline Deregulation Act expressly preempts the claims > because they defendants provide an airline "service" as defined in the > statute. > > Finally, the judge rejected the plaintiffs' argument that the Airline > Deregulation Act was meant to target airline deregulation rather than > discrimination. > > "The Airline Deregulation Act unequivocally declares that no state may enact > a law related to airline service," the Judge Alsup said. "Congress could > have drawn the preemption provision more narrowly. It did not." > > National Federation of the Blind et al. v. United Airlines Inc., No. C > 10-04816 WHA, 2011 WL 1544524 (N.D. Cal. Apr. 25, 2011). > > (Reporting by Jennifer Long, Westlaw Journal Aviation) > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > --------------- > > Register or log in to comment. > © 2011 Thomson Reuters > > a.. Co > Have you visited my personal page at > http://www.raceforindependence.org/goto/Sherri.Brun > If so, Thank you for changing what it means to be blind. > If not, please go there now! > Thank you. > flmom2006 at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nfb-talk mailing list > nfb-talk at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfb-talk: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/dotkid. > nusbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From serena.c.cucco at gmail.com Tue May 24 21:36:10 2011 From: serena.c.cucco at gmail.com (Serena Cucco) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:36:10 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Samson Haven In-Reply-To: <4dd5c219.8f00e70a.3484.1b53SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: One more question: On one of Verizon's sites, I'm pretty sure it said the Haven announces letters while you're texting, but, when I spoke to someone at Verizon, he could not tell me if this is true. So, does it announce letters you press while texting? If yes, what option is necessary to activate this feature? Thanks, Serena -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dreicer, zachary Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:20 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Samson Haven i think so but am not sure. haven does identify incoming calls when nobody is already using it. Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serena Cucco" Hi all: Just wondering, my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in the Android platform. What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? Is TalkBack any good? Thank you. Jorge From jty727 at gmail.com Tue May 24 21:41:18 2011 From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:41:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Samson Haven In-Reply-To: References: <4dd5c219.8f00e70a.3484.1b53SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Yes it reads the letters when you are texting provided the ringer is turn on. If it is on vibrate it won't speak much. As for turning it on I am not sure because I had the person at Verizon activate all of them for me. I would suggest maybe asking the person in the store to turn on all the accessible features. Justin On 5/24/11, Serena Cucco wrote: > One more question: On one of Verizon's sites, I'm pretty sure it said the > Haven announces letters while you're texting, but, when I spoke to someone > at Verizon, he could not tell me if this is true. So, does it announce > letters you press while texting? If yes, what option is necessary to > activate this feature? > > Thanks, > Serena > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of dreicer, zachary > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:20 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Samson Haven > > i think so but am not sure. haven does identify incoming calls > when nobody is already using it. > > Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Serena Cucco" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 21:15:07 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Samson Haven > > Then, I'm guessing the iphone is the only phone that identifies > call waiting > calls? For your info, I use Verizon. > > Serena > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of dreicer, zachary > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:12 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Samson Haven > > no, it just beeps. > > Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Serena Cucco" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 20:55:11 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] Samson Haven > > Hey guys, > > > > I remember some of you have this phone. I'm elligable for an > upgrade in a > couple of months and am considering my options. With the Haven, > if you're on > the phone and get a call waiting, does the Haven announce who's > calling on > the call waiting call? > > > > Thanks, > > Serena > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer > %40emissives.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serena.c. > cucco%40gma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/z.dreicer > %40emissives.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serena.c.cucco%40gma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > From z.dreicer at emissives.com Tue May 24 21:49:45 2011 From: z.dreicer at emissives.com (dreicer, zachary) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 15:49:45 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Samson Haven Message-ID: yes, right soft 1 then 3 Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serena Cucco" Message-ID: <3DFA9F63BFA94F75B4C5A502905EFE29@SerenaPC> Hi Zach and all, I haven't ever used soft keys before. Do you mean a right soft key that is numbered one and then another numbered 3? Or do you mean the right soft key, the regular number 1, and then the regular number 3? Please excuse my ignorance. Thanks, Serena -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dreicer, zachary Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 5:50 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Samson Haven yes, right soft 1 then 3 Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serena Cucco" right soft (the top right corner key) then 1, 3. Though, word mode is easier (right soft, 1 1). You can get training for free on this phone by visiting http://mysticplace.info/audio/haven/ to answer and explain all your questions and more. Length: close to 3 hours, in 13 or 14 sections Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serena Cucco" References: Message-ID: In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done. I have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, none of the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on an iPhone. If you need a fully functional phone and you need to accomplish things quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not ready yet. If you want to try something new and you are willing to give up on some usability and convenience, try getting an Android phone and see how it goes. If you are planning on using Mobile Accessibility I would recommend that you get a touch screen phone. IC On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > Hi all: > Just wondering, > my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in the Android platform. > What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? > Is TalkBack any good? > > > Thank you. > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Tue May 24 22:24:43 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 18:24:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi IC: Thanks for your info. Is Mobile Accessibility better then Talckback at least? Also: I thought Code Factory said that Mobile Accessibility didn't work outside the suite of apps if you were using a touch screen. Are you saying that for the most part the Mobile Accessibility suite is all that can be used at this point by the blind? Thanks, Jorge On May 24, 2011, at 6:17 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done. I have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, none of the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on an iPhone. If you need a fully functional phone and you need to accomplish things quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not ready yet. If you want to try something new and you are willing to give up on some usability and convenience, try getting an Android phone and see how it goes. If you are planning on using Mobile Accessibility I would recommend that you get a touch screen phone. > > IC > On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> Hi all: >> Just wondering, >> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in the Android platform. >> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >> Is TalkBack any good? >> >> >> Thank you. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From serena.c.cucco at gmail.com Tue May 24 22:31:51 2011 From: serena.c.cucco at gmail.com (Serena Cucco) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 18:31:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Samson Haven In-Reply-To: <4ddc2e5d.02a42a0a.1ab1.fffffdfcSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Ok thanks. You're awesome! -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of dreicer, zachary Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 6:15 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Samson Haven right soft (the top right corner key) then 1, 3. Though, word mode is easier (right soft, 1 1). You can get training for free on this phone by visiting http://mysticplace.info/audio/haven/ to answer and explain all your questions and more. Length: close to 3 hours, in 13 or 14 sections Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serena Cucco" yup! Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serena Cucco" Hey Guys: I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted to get your thoughts. The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and the NLS library service should go away. Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for reading. What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went away completely. hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion purposes. Kerri Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion by Josh de Lioncourt A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually impaired community. Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this question. •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing materials in accessible formats. •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from their users before they are able to gain access to the content provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, including mobile phones. •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these bodies. This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential treatment?" Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information they needed online than by visiting a physical library. The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find none who would argue that point. With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment media such as music or movies. While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a future of equal access with our sighted peers. It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone else? Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we pay for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community college? For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I’m sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining books for their hard work? Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our printed materials handed over for free? We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? I know which outcome I’m hoping for. From serena.c.cucco at gmail.com Wed May 25 01:04:54 2011 From: serena.c.cucco at gmail.com (Serena Cucco) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 21:04:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <90C89F214F3745D284155FF11278193E@SerenaPC> Hey Kerrie, All great points and how about for those of us who simply don't want an iphone? Serena -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kerri Kosten Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 8:42 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Hey Guys: I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted to get your thoughts. The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and the NLS library service should go away. Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for reading. What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went away completely. hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion purposes. Kerri Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion by Josh de Lioncourt A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually impaired community. Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at just a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this question. .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing materials in accessible formats. .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from their users before they are able to gain access to the content provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle provide access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, including mobile phones. .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these bodies. This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential treatment?" Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information they needed online than by visiting a physical library. The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find none who would argue that point. With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment media such as music or movies. While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a future of equal access with our sighted peers. It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone else? Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we pay for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community college? For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod touch can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions ultimately be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining books for their hard work? Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our printed materials handed over for free? We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? I know which outcome I'm hoping for. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serena.c.cucco%40gma il.com From anjelinac26 at gmail.com Wed May 25 01:15:42 2011 From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (anjelinac26 at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 21:15:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: <90C89F214F3745D284155FF11278193E@SerenaPC> References: <90C89F214F3745D284155FF11278193E@SerenaPC> Message-ID: I doubt NLS will in the near future loose its steam. Although many blind readers are more connected to mainstream resources for bookss, there is a growing population of senior citizens who may opt for traditional library services. Anjelina Sent from my iPhone On May 24, 2011, at 9:04 PM, "Serena Cucco" wrote: > Hey Kerrie, > > All great points and how about for those of us who simply don't want an > iphone? > > Serena > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Kerri Kosten > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 8:42 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > Hey Guys: > > I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh > DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted > to get your thoughts. > > The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of > ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should > try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from > mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's > Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and > the NLS library service should go away. > > Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? > > Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? > > Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. > > While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille > literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. > Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone > correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display > either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in > BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a > notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. > > What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle > and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for > reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for > reading. > > What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many > people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat > computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for > the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. > > Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went > away completely. > > hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion > purposes. > > Kerri > > Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion > by Josh de Lioncourt > A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that > rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of > years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the > National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we > care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, > Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" > > On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people > with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one > digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an > alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually > impaired community. > > Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at just > a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this > question. > > .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously > available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with > access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the > same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with > publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing > materials in accessible formats. > .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are > understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from > their users before they are able to gain access to the content > provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these > hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. > .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable > or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, > commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle provide > access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, > including mobile phones. > .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a > recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large > number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient > solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove > far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. > .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these > bodies. > This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a > visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, > but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one > solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in > mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. > > There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. > It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired > people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential > treatment?" > > Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. > Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise > inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in > a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. > > With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability > and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. > Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of > information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A > WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of > library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of > college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information > they needed online than by visiting a physical library. > > The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible > than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few > technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the > quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find > none who would argue that point. > > With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline > of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask > yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or > exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The > answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers > purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment > media such as music or movies. > > While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years > passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of > accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, > and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those > with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, > solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a > future of equal access with our sighted peers. > > It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated > access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired > community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially > when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, > purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone else? > Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at > StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or > educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text > on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we pay > for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community > college? > > For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually > impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot > afford to purchase books, I have two questions. > > First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar > circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm > sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a > treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open > BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? > > Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or > government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than > mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available > in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users > to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. > How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which > provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens > of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at > just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod touch > can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, > and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from > the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions ultimately > be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining > books for their hard work? > > Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community > wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon > for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at > the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our > printed materials handed over for free? > > We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a > crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our > convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal > opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on > equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move > forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? > > I know which outcome I'm hoping for. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serena.c.cucco%40gma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed May 25 01:17:51 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 21:17:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44FDFE0A-2D6D-44BA-86AC-DEA24E8B8DE8@gmail.com> I think Bookshare will go away. Yes, you can read books with a braille display, if you have an iPhone 4 or above. And also: can't you use your notetaker with the PC as a braille display? I don't see NLS going any time soon just for the braille books. They might move away from audio/online, but the braille books are still valuable. I, like you, want to read the digital stuff on a display too. On May 24, 2011, at 8:42 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote: > Hey Guys: > > I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh > DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted > to get your thoughts. > > The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of > ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should > try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from > mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's > Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and > the NLS library service should go away. > > Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? > > Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? > > Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. > > While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille > literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. > Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone > correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display > either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in > BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a > notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. > > What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle > and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for > reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for > reading. > > What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many > people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat > computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for > the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. > > Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went > away completely. > > hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion purposes. > > Kerri > > Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion > by Josh de Lioncourt > A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that > rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of > years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the > National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we > care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, > Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" > > On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people > with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one > digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an > alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually > impaired community. > > Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just > a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this > question. > > •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously > available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with > access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the > same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with > publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing > materials in accessible formats. > •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are > understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from > their users before they are able to gain access to the content > provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these > hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. > •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable > or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, > commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide > access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, > including mobile phones. > •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a > recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large > number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient > solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove > far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. > •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these bodies. > This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a > visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, > but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one > solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in > mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. > > There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. > It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired > people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential > treatment?" > > Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. > Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise > inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in > a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. > > With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability > and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. > Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of > information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A > WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of > library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of > college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information > they needed online than by visiting a physical library. > > The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible > than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few > technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the > quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find > none who would argue that point. > > With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline > of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask > yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or > exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The > answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers > purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment > media such as music or movies. > > While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years > passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of > accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, > and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those > with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, > solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a > future of equal access with our sighted peers. > > It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated > access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired > community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially > when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, > purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone else? > Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at > StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or > educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text > on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we pay > for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community > college? > > For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually > impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot > afford to purchase books, I have two questions. > > First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar > circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I’m > sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a > treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open > BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? > > Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or > government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than > mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available > in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users > to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. > How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which > provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens > of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at > just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch > can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, > and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from > the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately > be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining > books for their hard work? > > Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community > wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon > for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at > the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our > printed materials handed over for free? > > We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a > crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our > convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal > opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on > equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move > forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? > > I know which outcome I’m hoping for. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed May 25 01:31:15 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 18:31:15 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? Message-ID: Hey all, I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions and more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want to be involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you contribute to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of your state division. If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed. Thanks! Darian p.s. I am seriously curious :) -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From maurice.mines at gmail.com Wed May 25 01:41:47 2011 From: maurice.mines at gmail.com (Maurice Mines) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 19:41:47 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B45FE34-332F-4F6A-BB18-874F318082B2@gmail.com> the reason why I joined the unit B., and the national Association of blind students is wanting to give back to those who have given me advice and helped me out on the way, and that of course is in many different ways sometimes advised that I want to hear, and sometimes advice that I don't want to hear but I think overall giving back to the blind up my state, and the country in some small way. I hope that my short answer is helpful. On May 24, 2011, at 7:31 PM, Darian Smith wrote: > Hey all, > I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? > Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions and > more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want to be > involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post > messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at > Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you contribute > to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of your > state division. > If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed. > Thanks! > Darian > > p.s. I am seriously curious :) > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/maurice.mines%40gmail.com From kerrik2006 at gmail.com Wed May 25 01:49:09 2011 From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 21:49:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? In-Reply-To: <5B45FE34-332F-4F6A-BB18-874F318082B2@gmail.com> References: <5B45FE34-332F-4F6A-BB18-874F318082B2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Darian: Good question! I have to agree with waht Maurice said. I want to give back waht the federation has given to me. I want to be able to help or mentor other students in any way I can. I also really was impressed with, and enjoyed how much support/help I received when I posted uestions and I want to give that back. I remember asking about convention and I had two or three people offering to let me meet up with their respective groups and they didn't even know me. But, they were willing to offer that kind of help just so I could possibly feel more at ease traveling. Words can not express how grateful I have been for all the support and I want to contribute to that and give it back wherever and as much as I can! Kerri On 5/24/11, Maurice Mines wrote: > the reason why I joined the unit B., and the national Association of blind > students is wanting to give back to those who have given me advice and > helped me out on the way, and that of course is in many different ways > sometimes advised that I want to hear, and sometimes advice that I don't > want to hear but I think overall giving back to the blind up my state, and > the country in some small way. I hope that my short answer is helpful. > On May 24, 2011, at 7:31 PM, Darian Smith wrote: > >> Hey all, >> I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? >> Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions and >> more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want to be >> involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post >> messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at >> Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you contribute >> to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of your >> state division. >> If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed. >> Thanks! >> Darian >> >> p.s. I am seriously curious :) >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> — Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/maurice.mines%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com > From seacknit at gmail.com Wed May 25 01:49:38 2011 From: seacknit at gmail.com (Sally Thomas) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 20:49:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kerri, I think you have a good perspective on the issue. I don't think that Bookshare will go away any time soon because it is one of the main organizations that can translate textbooks into accessible formats. Bookshare is an authorized user for the NIMAC in many states. This access to books for kids k-12 is essential. It would be a shame to limit access to braille by eliminating Bookshare. I read this list often and I think I can tell who has had access to braille and who has relied on auditory learning. Braille helps with spelling and grammar skills. We should support efforts to keep organizations which support braille literacy and access to braille materials. Sally Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerri Kosten" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 7:42 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Hey Guys: I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted to get your thoughts. The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and the NLS library service should go away. Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for reading. What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went away completely. hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion purposes. Kerri Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion by Josh de Lioncourt A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually impaired community. Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this question. •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing materials in accessible formats. •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from their users before they are able to gain access to the content provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, including mobile phones. •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these bodies. This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential treatment?" Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information they needed online than by visiting a physical library. The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find none who would argue that point. With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment media such as music or movies. While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a future of equal access with our sighted peers. It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone else? Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we pay for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community college? For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I’m sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining books for their hard work? Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our printed materials handed over for free? We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? I know which outcome I’m hoping for. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com From anjelinac26 at gmail.com Wed May 25 01:53:28 2011 From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (anjelinac26 at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 21:53:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <263213EE-1851-4A16-A32E-7C4D91FC4DB0@gmail.com> I joined nabs to learn from other blind students as well as hoping to do what I can to change societies misconceptions of blindness. The list has been a valuable sounding board for questions over the years. Anjelina Sent from my iPhone On May 24, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Darian Smith wrote: > Hey all, > I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? > Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions and > more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want to be > involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post > messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at > Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you contribute > to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of your > state division. > If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed. > Thanks! > Darian > > p.s. I am seriously curious :) > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed May 25 02:06:52 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 22:06:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: True, but you have to keep in mind, if "mainstream" sources increase, and digital versions of textbooks become available, such as accessible PDFs, ect, wouldn't that make NYMAC unnecessary in the first place? On May 24, 2011, at 9:49 PM, Sally Thomas wrote: > Kerri, I think you have a good perspective on the issue. I don't think that Bookshare will go away any time soon because it is one of the main organizations that can translate textbooks into accessible formats. Bookshare is an authorized user for the NIMAC in many states. This access to books for kids k-12 is essential. It would be a shame to limit access to braille by eliminating Bookshare. > > I read this list often and I think I can tell who has had access to braille and who has relied on auditory learning. Braille helps with spelling and grammar skills. We should support efforts to keep organizations which support braille literacy and access to braille materials. > > Sally Thomas > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerri Kosten" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 7:42 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > > Hey Guys: > > I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh > DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted > to get your thoughts. > > The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of > ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should > try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from > mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's > Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and > the NLS library service should go away. > > Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? > > Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? > > Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. > > While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille > literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. > Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone > correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display > either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in > BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a > notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. > > What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle > and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for > reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for > reading. > > What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many > people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat > computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for > the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. > > Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went > away completely. > > hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion purposes. > > Kerri > > Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion > by Josh de Lioncourt > A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that > rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of > years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the > National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we > care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, > Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" > > On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people > with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one > digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an > alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually > impaired community. > > Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just > a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this > question. > > •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously > available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with > access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the > same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with > publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing > materials in accessible formats. > •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are > understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from > their users before they are able to gain access to the content > provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these > hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. > •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable > or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, > commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide > access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, > including mobile phones. > •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a > recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large > number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient > solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove > far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. > •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these bodies. > This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a > visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, > but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one > solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in > mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. > > There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. > It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired > people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential > treatment?" > > Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. > Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise > inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in > a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. > > With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability > and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. > Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of > information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A > WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of > library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of > college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information > they needed online than by visiting a physical library. > > The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible > than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few > technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the > quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find > none who would argue that point. > > With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline > of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask > yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or > exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The > answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers > purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment > media such as music or movies. > > While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years > passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of > accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, > and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those > with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, > solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a > future of equal access with our sighted peers. > > It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated > access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired > community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially > when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, > purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone else? > Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at > StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or > educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text > on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we pay > for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community > college? > > For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually > impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot > afford to purchase books, I have two questions. > > First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar > circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I’m > sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a > treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open > BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? > > Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or > government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than > mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available > in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users > to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. > How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which > provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens > of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at > just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch > can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, > and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from > the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately > be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining > books for their hard work? > > Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community > wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon > for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at > the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our > printed materials handed over for free? > > We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a > crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our > convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal > opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on > equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move > forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? > > I know which outcome I’m hoping for. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From jty727 at gmail.com Wed May 25 02:18:52 2011 From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 22:18:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? In-Reply-To: <263213EE-1851-4A16-A32E-7C4D91FC4DB0@gmail.com> References: <263213EE-1851-4A16-A32E-7C4D91FC4DB0@gmail.com> Message-ID: I joined because I love hearing all the great ideas/suggestions/advice people have to give whenever I am unsure of what to do/where to find something or anything along these lines. I also love helping when I know the answer to someone else who is unsure of something as well. I also love reading all the amazing things that people in their divisions are doing! Finally, I must agree with the point that we have to put an end to the missconceptions that some people still have about us(Blind/Visually Impaired individuals). Justin On 5/24/11, anjelinac26 at gmail.com wrote: > I joined nabs to learn from other blind students as well as hoping to do > what I can to change societies misconceptions of blindness. The list has > been a valuable sounding board for questions over the years. > > Anjelina > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 24, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Darian Smith wrote: > >> Hey all, >> I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? >> Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions and >> more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want to be >> involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post >> messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at >> Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you contribute >> to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of your >> state division. >> If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed. >> Thanks! >> Darian >> >> p.s. I am seriously curious :) >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> — Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed May 25 02:25:35 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 22:25:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? In-Reply-To: References: <263213EE-1851-4A16-A32E-7C4D91FC4DB0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7509C25F-5476-478A-96FB-B73F8E4D87AA@gmail.com> Same here. On May 24, 2011, at 10:18 PM, Justin Young wrote: > I joined because I love hearing all the great ideas/suggestions/advice > people have to give whenever I am unsure of what to do/where to find > something or anything along these lines. I also love helping when I > know the answer to someone else who is unsure of something as well. I > also love reading all the amazing things that people in their > divisions are doing! Finally, I must agree with the point that we > have to put an end to the missconceptions that some people still have > about us(Blind/Visually Impaired individuals). > > Justin > > On 5/24/11, anjelinac26 at gmail.com wrote: >> I joined nabs to learn from other blind students as well as hoping to do >> what I can to change societies misconceptions of blindness. The list has >> been a valuable sounding board for questions over the years. >> >> Anjelina >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On May 24, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >> >>> Hey all, >>> I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? >>> Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions and >>> more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want to be >>> involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post >>> messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at >>> Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you contribute >>> to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of your >>> state division. >>> If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed. >>> Thanks! >>> Darian >>> >>> p.s. I am seriously curious :) >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> — Robert Byrne >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Wed May 25 02:30:35 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 21:30:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? In-Reply-To: References: <263213EE-1851-4A16-A32E-7C4D91FC4DB0@gmail.com> Message-ID: I joined, for the reasons, everyone here mentioned. I'm actually going to join the group, next year, at convention. I do, however, want to say, that the term should be sight impaired. I like Chris's motto, "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision." That's what I agree with. I hate "Visually impaired." That is the worst term in the world! Blessings, Joshua On 5/24/11, Justin Young wrote: > I joined because I love hearing all the great ideas/suggestions/advice > people have to give whenever I am unsure of what to do/where to find > something or anything along these lines. I also love helping when I > know the answer to someone else who is unsure of something as well. I > also love reading all the amazing things that people in their > divisions are doing! Finally, I must agree with the point that we > have to put an end to the missconceptions that some people still have > about us(Blind/Visually Impaired individuals). > > Justin > > On 5/24/11, anjelinac26 at gmail.com wrote: >> I joined nabs to learn from other blind students as well as hoping to do >> what I can to change societies misconceptions of blindness. The list has >> been a valuable sounding board for questions over the years. >> >> Anjelina >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On May 24, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >> >>> Hey all, >>> I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? >>> Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions and >>> more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want to be >>> involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post >>> messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at >>> Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you contribute >>> to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of your >>> state division. >>> If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed. >>> Thanks! >>> Darian >>> >>> p.s. I am seriously curious :) >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> — Robert Byrne >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed May 25 02:42:13 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 22:42:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: <44FDFE0A-2D6D-44BA-86AC-DEA24E8B8DE8@gmail.com> References: <44FDFE0A-2D6D-44BA-86AC-DEA24E8B8DE8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0049C6B117E84924A916493ACAA37A18@OwnerPC> Hi Kerry, Interesting question. Yes we do have more access to mainstream books through comericial audio like audible.com and Random House has recorded books and Amozon has many recorded books too. That said I do not see NLS going away for a long time. As others said, there is still a place for a hard copy braille book, despite technology. You can only get certain things on braille paper such as paragraphs structure that you cannot get on a linear display. You can take a braille book anywhere and its durable. Besides not everyone is tech savy or has a braille display on their notetaker if they own one. As to bookshare, I'm not so sure of that. Part of me thinks it will go away. If electronic books become accessible from distributors and publishers, then why would anyone need bookshare? That is a source of electronic books after all. If we all can read books via our computers or hook a braille display to the PC to read, then that serves the same purpose of bookkshare. But if bookshare comes to a demise, I do not see that happening for a long time. It will be a slow decline of users. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:17 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare I think Bookshare will go away. Yes, you can read books with a braille display, if you have an iPhone 4 or above. And also: can't you use your notetaker with the PC as a braille display? I don't see NLS going any time soon just for the braille books. They might move away from audio/online, but the braille books are still valuable. I, like you, want to read the digital stuff on a display too. On May 24, 2011, at 8:42 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote: > Hey Guys: > > I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh > DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted > to get your thoughts. > > The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of > ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should > try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from > mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's > Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and > the NLS library service should go away. > > Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? > > Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? > > Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. > > While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille > literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. > Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone > correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display > either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in > BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a > notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. > > What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle > and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for > reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for > reading. > > What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many > people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat > computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for > the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. > > Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went > away completely. > > hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion > purposes. > > Kerri > > Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion > by Josh de Lioncourt > A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that > rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of > years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the > National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we > care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, > Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" > > On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people > with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one > digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an > alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually > impaired community. > > Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just > a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this > question. > > •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously > available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with > access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the > same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with > publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing > materials in accessible formats. > •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are > understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from > their users before they are able to gain access to the content > provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these > hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. > •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable > or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, > commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide > access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, > including mobile phones. > •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a > recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large > number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient > solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove > far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. > •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these > bodies. > This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a > visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, > but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one > solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in > mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. > > There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. > It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired > people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential > treatment?" > > Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. > Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise > inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in > a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. > > With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability > and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. > Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of > information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A > WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of > library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of > college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information > they needed online than by visiting a physical library. > > The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible > than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few > technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the > quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find > none who would argue that point. > > With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline > of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask > yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or > exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The > answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers > purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment > media such as music or movies. > > While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years > passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of > accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, > and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those > with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, > solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a > future of equal access with our sighted peers. > > It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated > access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired > community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially > when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, > purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone else? > Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at > StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or > educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text > on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we pay > for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community > college? > > For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually > impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot > afford to purchase books, I have two questions. > > First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar > circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I’m > sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a > treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open > BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? > > Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or > government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than > mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available > in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users > to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. > How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which > provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens > of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at > just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch > can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, > and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from > the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately > be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining > books for their hard work? > > Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community > wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon > for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at > the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our > printed materials handed over for free? > > We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a > crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our > convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal > opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on > equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move > forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? > > I know which outcome I’m hoping for. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Wed May 25 03:05:08 2011 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 23:05:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] important message concerning nabslink audio and recent membership calls Message-ID: <44041A17395043BE824A280A6ED2FF1F@audioaccess1PC> Hi All! This is an important piece of information concerning the most recent nabs calls and their availability, so please take a moment to read this. 1. The March Call: The March call on center summer programs is about to be sent out to you again. The call was put in to two parts, so I’ve combined them both in to one, so that will be coming your way shortly. 2. The April call on NFB philosophy will be sent to you right after. 3. To those of you who requested to be notified by text message on your phone when an archive is working, you should get two messages, one per call. This won’t normally happen, as we generally don’t upload two calls at a time, but in this case, this is what has happened. If you wish to receive notifications of membership calls being available for download, please email djdrocks4ever at gmail.com with your name, number, and cell phone carrier. This info will not be disclosed to anyone, it is only inserted in to the script that powers our podcast system, which I just updated to incorporate these new features. 4. Lastly, my PC decided not to record the May call on technology. I apologize for this. I will be working with the membership committee to make some changes to not only improve the audio of these calls and to make sure they are up a little more consistently but to make it so they can be heard live online as they are happening again. Keep an eye on email for further details. Please don’t hesitate to contact me should you have any questions. All the best, David Dunphy From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 25 03:06:48 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 21:06:48 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? In-Reply-To: References: <263213EE-1851-4A16-A32E-7C4D91FC4DB0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Darian, My biggest reasons for joining NABS have pretty much been beat to death already, but NABS in general and this list in particular has one huge benefit for me-it keeps me on my toes. I know I can't get too crazy or off-track without Jedi or Mike or Darian or Shaun or someone putting me in my place. *grin* Aside from that, having a network of blind students, in whatever stage of life, who've gone through lots of what I'm going through and who understand blindness is an incredible resource to me. I hope I've been able to give back even a fraction of the information and insight and prospective I've gained from all of you. Blindness can pose some interesting problems, especially for us students, and who better to help us get through those problems than other blind students? I can't think of anyone. That's why I'm here, to find answers to challenges that come with blindness, to get some motivation when apathy starts getting me down, and hopefully to provide the same to others who need it. And plus, the debate's fun! Who doesn't like a good debate? *grin* Best wishes, Kirt On 5/24/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > I joined, for the reasons, everyone here mentioned. > I'm actually going to join the group, next year, at convention. > I do, however, want to say, that the term should be sight impaired. > I like Chris's motto, "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision." > That's what I agree with. > I hate "Visually impaired." > That is the worst term in the world! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 5/24/11, Justin Young wrote: >> I joined because I love hearing all the great ideas/suggestions/advice >> people have to give whenever I am unsure of what to do/where to find >> something or anything along these lines. I also love helping when I >> know the answer to someone else who is unsure of something as well. I >> also love reading all the amazing things that people in their >> divisions are doing! Finally, I must agree with the point that we >> have to put an end to the missconceptions that some people still have >> about us(Blind/Visually Impaired individuals). >> >> Justin >> >> On 5/24/11, anjelinac26 at gmail.com wrote: >>> I joined nabs to learn from other blind students as well as hoping to do >>> what I can to change societies misconceptions of blindness. The list has >>> been a valuable sounding board for questions over the years. >>> >>> Anjelina >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On May 24, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >>> >>>> Hey all, >>>> I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? >>>> Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions and >>>> more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want to be >>>> involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post >>>> messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at >>>> Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you contribute >>>> to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of your >>>> state division. >>>> If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed. >>>> Thanks! >>>> Darian >>>> >>>> p.s. I am seriously curious :) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Darian Smith >>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>> >>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>> >>>> — Robert Byrne >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From brice.smith319 at gmail.com Wed May 25 03:19:38 2011 From: brice.smith319 at gmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 23:19:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental problem with this article: ": For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?" Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for sighted individuals. Brice On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: > Hey Guys: > > I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh > DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted > to get your thoughts. > > The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of > ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should > try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from > mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's > Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and > the NLS library service should go away. > > Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? > > Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? > > Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. > > While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille > literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. > Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone > correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display > either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in > BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a > notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. > > What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle > and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for > reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for > reading. > > What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many > people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat > computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for > the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. > > Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went > away completely. > > hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion > purposes. > > Kerri > > Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion > by Josh de Lioncourt > A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that > rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of > years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the > National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we > care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, > Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" > > On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people > with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one > digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an > alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually > impaired community. > > Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just > a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this > question. > > •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously > available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with > access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the > same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with > publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing > materials in accessible formats. > •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are > understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from > their users before they are able to gain access to the content > provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these > hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. > •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable > or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, > commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide > access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, > including mobile phones. > •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a > recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large > number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient > solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove > far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. > •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these > bodies. > This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a > visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, > but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one > solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in > mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. > > There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. > It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired > people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential > treatment?" > > Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. > Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise > inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in > a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. > > With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability > and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. > Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of > information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A > WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of > library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of > college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information > they needed online than by visiting a physical library. > > The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible > than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few > technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the > quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find > none who would argue that point. > > With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline > of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask > yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or > exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The > answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers > purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment > media such as music or movies. > > While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years > passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of > accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, > and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those > with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, > solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a > future of equal access with our sighted peers. > > It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated > access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired > community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially > when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, > purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone else? > Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at > StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or > educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text > on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we pay > for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community > college? > > For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually > impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot > afford to purchase books, I have two questions. > > First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar > circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I’m > sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a > treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open > BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? > > Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or > government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than > mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available > in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users > to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. > How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which > provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens > of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at > just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch > can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, > and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from > the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately > be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining > books for their hard work? > > Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community > wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon > for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at > the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our > printed materials handed over for free? > > We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a > crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our > convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal > opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on > equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move > forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? > > I know which outcome I’m hoping for. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > -- Brice Smith North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Wed May 25 03:26:01 2011 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (Nabslinkaudio.org Web Master) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 23:26:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download Message-ID: Greetings! This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download. Title: The Nabs Conference Call For March 2011 Description: On this call, we had the chance to hear about the summer programs offered by the NFB's four major training centers. These are Blindness, Learning In New Dimensions Blind Inc
The Colorado Center For The Blind
The Louisiana Center For The Blind
and Bism in Maryland
Learn about what these summer programs offer and how you can get involved with them. You can download the show directly at: http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/March2011Call.mp3 Alternatively you can visit the archive page at: http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations to hear some of the other calls we've done. Best regards, David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee http://www.nabslinkaudio.org http://www.nabslink.org From dandrews at visi.com Wed May 25 03:35:23 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 22:35:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Fitted cases for the sight Impaired by EPI Message-ID: >From: "Al Eremita" >To: "Al Eremita" >Subject: Fitted cases for the sight Impaired by EPI >Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 16:25:43 -0700 > > > >Are your looking for a fitted case for your >Apex, Braille Sense, Iphone, or other Braille >products then go to >www.ExecutivePrdoctsInc.com? > >We at Executive Products has been in business >for 7 years now, creating case for the sight >impaired community. We have always had one goal >in mind and that was to protect your valuable >devices, and to make you and your devices >mobile. Over the years we have noticed that many >companies in the sight impaired community make >very good products but provide you with very >little protection to your devices. We have also >evolved to adapt to our customers needs and >always welcome your suggestions (such as using >magnets instead of Velcro when possible). > >If at any time you would like to purchase any >one of our cases you can always go to our >website >www.executiveproductinc.com >or call us anytime at 818-833-8080. Carol or Al >will be able happy to answer any questions you >may have or to help you place an order. > >We take great pride in working very closely with >the sight impaired community. We are also very >proud that all our products are made in the USA! > >Book Port Book Port >+ Braille+ > Braille Connect >32/40 Braille >Icon Braille Sense Plus 32 >BrailleNote Apex GW >BookSense GW Voice >Sense Iphone >3G/4G N82 > Plextalk >Trekker Breeze Victor >Stream Cane >Holders BX >400/420/440 QX >400/420/440 Braille & Speak >NLS/BPH cases Gps >Cases GPS-EarthMate, > Gps-Global >Sat, GPS-Holux >GpSlim 236 GPS-Holux I-Blue 737, >GPS-SysOn Book >courier SmartPhones Pouches S/M/L >Braille Lite >2000/M20/M40 >Braille Note BT/QT Mpower >BT/QT >Voice Note BT/QT Voice Note MPower BT/QT > >818-833-8080 > >Please pass this e-mail to your friends. > >Protect your unit .. Buy an EPI case. > >Executive Products Inc. >tback_yellow-1 > >12900 Bradley Ave. >Sylmar Ca. 91342. >Fax: 818-833-5890 >Office: 818-833-8080 >Mobile: 818-723-8444 >www.ExecutiveProductsinc.com > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: c2cbda.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3615 bytes Desc: not available URL: From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Wed May 25 03:38:01 2011 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (Nabslinkaudio.org Web Master) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 23:38:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download Message-ID: Greetings! This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download. Title: The Nabs Membership Call For April 2011 Description: It's time to visit a topic that some understand well, others sort of get it, and some either have questions or don't know what it's all about. I'm speaking about NFB philosophy. Come hear some great ideas for encouraging people to reach their potential that were offered in this call. Learn how the NFB helps to raise the bar of expectation regarding what we as blind people can do. You can download the show directly at: http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/April2011Call.mp3 Alternatively you can visit the archive page at: http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations to hear some of the other calls we've done. Best regards, David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee http://www.nabslinkaudio.org http://www.nabslink.org From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 25 03:39:09 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 21:39:09 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: <0049C6B117E84924A916493ACAA37A18@OwnerPC> References: <44FDFE0A-2D6D-44BA-86AC-DEA24E8B8DE8@gmail.com> <0049C6B117E84924A916493ACAA37A18@OwnerPC> Message-ID: To all, First off, before I get roasted for disagreeing with you guys, I want to say that braille is absolutely critical. My biggest regret about my education so far (aside from my terrible habbit to procrastinate stuff), is that I've started using braille less and less and audio more and more. I really think it's damaged my learning and put me at a disadvantage and, while I'm still a great braille reader, I don't use it much as I ought to. That said, braille has helped me with spelling, grammar, imagination, and learning through reading rather than listening. I'm going to start relying on it more again and I guarantee my writing and reading comprehention will go from good to amazing-it's happened before and, so help me, I'm going to get back what I've lost by relegating braille to a back seat behind my computer. That being said, braille access to books from mainstream sources is increasing at a tremendous rate. I can use my apex as a braille display on my ITouch to read books I purchase via Ibooks. I'm going to make the prediction that, at some point within the next several years, using a notetaker or a braille display to read Kindel books will be practical-it's just a guess, but I'd be surprised if five years go by and I'm wrong. With KNFB developing the BLIO reader, I have no doubt support for braille displays will be integrated before too long. Reading books in mainstream formats on a braille display is already doable, braille and I think it will only expand. The way I see it, the ease of reading ebooks on a braille display, as well as the number of formats we'll be able to read on a braille display, will only increase. Now to address the philosophical point this article brings up. I totally agree with the author here. If we want to be treated as equals, we have to understand we need to demand equal responsibilities along with equal rights. I don't see public libraries going away, lots of people like their hardcopy books. Therefore I don't see NLS going away as a lender of paper braille books. I still like reading paper braille from time to time and there are plenty of blind people who aren't very computer literate. People still like buying print hardcovers and paperbooks; in that same vain, I don't see the National Braille Press going away. But sighted people don't get free ebooks, why should we? It used to be that we needed them because they were the only ebooks we could read with a braille display, not so anymore. If we're going to be true to our philosophy as Federationists, it's not fair for us to want preferential treatment here. Do we really mean it when we say we want to be equal citizens? If we do, it's high time we start paying an equal price, especially since it's not that hard to read ebooks on a braille display, if we know what we're doing, and it's only going to get easier as programs such as the Blio and Kindle improve their access. I say we'll only be treated like everyone else when we realize that equality isn't an extra handout, it isn't just a change in society's attitudes towards us, but it's mostly an acceptence of the responsibilities that come with first-class citizenship! And getting ebooks for free or at a very steap discount, while everyone else has to pay, is definitely not an equal responsibility. Who's with me? All the best, Kirt On 5/24/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi Kerry, > Interesting question. Yes we do have more access to mainstream books through > comericial audio like audible.com and Random House has recorded books and > Amozon has many recorded books too. > That said I do not see NLS going away for a long time. As others said, > there is still a place for a hard copy braille book, despite technology. > You can only get certain things on braille paper such as paragraphs > structure that you cannot get on a linear display. You can take a braille > book anywhere and its durable. Besides not everyone is tech savy or has a > braille display on their notetaker if they own one. > > As to bookshare, I'm not so sure of that. > Part of me thinks it will go away. If electronic books become accessible > from distributors and publishers, then why would anyone need bookshare? > That is a source of electronic books after all. If we all can read books via > our computers or hook a braille display to the PC to read, then that serves > the same purpose of bookkshare. > > But if bookshare comes to a demise, I do not see that happening for a long > time. It will be a slow decline of users. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jorge Paez > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:17 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > I think Bookshare will go away. > Yes, you can read books with a braille display, if you have an iPhone 4 or > above. > And also: can't you use your notetaker with the PC as a braille display? > I don't see NLS going any time soon just for the braille books. > They might move away from audio/online, but the braille books are still > valuable. > I, like you, want to read the digital stuff on a display too. > > On May 24, 2011, at 8:42 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote: > >> Hey Guys: >> >> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >> to get your thoughts. >> >> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >> the NLS library service should go away. >> >> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >> >> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >> >> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >> >> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >> >> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >> reading. >> >> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >> >> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >> away completely. >> >> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >> purposes. >> >> Kerri >> >> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >> by Josh de Lioncourt >> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >> >> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >> with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >> impaired community. >> >> Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just >> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >> question. >> >> •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >> materials in accessible formats. >> •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >> •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >> commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide >> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >> including mobile phones. >> •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >> •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these >> bodies. >> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >> >> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >> treatment?" >> >> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >> >> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >> >> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >> none who would argue that point. >> >> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >> media such as music or movies. >> >> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >> >> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone else? >> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we pay >> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >> college? >> >> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >> >> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I’m >> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open >> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >> >> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >> just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >> the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >> books for their hard work? >> >> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >> printed materials handed over for free? >> >> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >> >> I know which outcome I’m hoping for. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From k7uij at panix.com Wed May 25 03:41:01 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 20:41:01 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? In-Reply-To: References: <263213EE-1851-4A16-A32E-7C4D91FC4DB0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <05AED562-935B-4C73-9662-E91D7A3B6EF4@panix.com> What's wrong with the word "blind"? Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 24, 2011, at 19:30, Joshua Lester wrote: > I joined, for the reasons, everyone here mentioned. > I'm actually going to join the group, next year, at convention. > I do, however, want to say, that the term should be sight impaired. > I like Chris's motto, "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision." > That's what I agree with. > I hate "Visually impaired." > That is the worst term in the world! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 5/24/11, Justin Young wrote: >> I joined because I love hearing all the great ideas/suggestions/advice >> people have to give whenever I am unsure of what to do/where to find >> something or anything along these lines. I also love helping when I >> know the answer to someone else who is unsure of something as well. I >> also love reading all the amazing things that people in their >> divisions are doing! Finally, I must agree with the point that we >> have to put an end to the missconceptions that some people still have >> about us(Blind/Visually Impaired individuals). >> >> Justin >> >> On 5/24/11, anjelinac26 at gmail.com wrote: >>> I joined nabs to learn from other blind students as well as hoping to do >>> what I can to change societies misconceptions of blindness. The list has >>> been a valuable sounding board for questions over the years. >>> >>> Anjelina >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On May 24, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >>> >>>> Hey all, >>>> I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? >>>> Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions and >>>> more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want to be >>>> involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post >>>> messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at >>>> Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you contribute >>>> to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of your >>>> state division. >>>> If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed. >>>> Thanks! >>>> Darian >>>> >>>> p.s. I am seriously curious :) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Darian Smith >>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>> >>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>> >>>> — Robert Byrne >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 25 03:42:50 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 21:42:50 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: <44FDFE0A-2D6D-44BA-86AC-DEA24E8B8DE8@gmail.com> <0049C6B117E84924A916493ACAA37A18@OwnerPC> Message-ID: To all, Please do your best to disregard the aweful grammar and terrible typos I made in that last post. That'll teach me to send stuff without double-checking and editing first! Anyways, my terrible delivery of that last message didn't do it justice. If it's not too jmuch trouble, read what I tried to write and not what I actually wrote. *grin* On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > To all, > First off, before I get roasted for disagreeing with you guys, I > want to say that braille is absolutely critical. My biggest regret > about my education so far (aside from my terrible habbit to > procrastinate stuff), is that I've started using braille less and less > and audio more and more. I really think it's damaged my learning and > put me at a disadvantage and, while I'm still a great braille reader, > I don't use it much as I ought to. That said, braille has helped me > with spelling, grammar, imagination, and learning through reading > rather than listening. I'm going to start relying on it more again > and I guarantee my writing and reading comprehention will go from good > to amazing-it's happened before and, so help me, I'm going to get back > what I've lost by relegating braille to a back seat behind my > computer. > That being said, braille access to books from mainstream sources is > increasing at a tremendous rate. I can use my apex as a braille > display on my ITouch to read books I purchase via Ibooks. I'm going > to make the prediction that, at some point within the next several > years, using a notetaker or a braille display to read Kindel books > will be practical-it's just a guess, but I'd be surprised if five > years go by and I'm wrong. With KNFB developing the BLIO reader, I > have no doubt support for braille displays will be integrated before > too long. Reading books in mainstream formats on a braille display is > already doable, braille and I think it will only expand. The way I > see it, the ease of reading ebooks on a braille display, as well as > the number of formats we'll be able to read on a braille display, will > only increase. > Now to address the philosophical point this article brings up. I > totally agree with the author here. If we want to be treated as > equals, we have to understand we need to demand equal responsibilities > along with equal rights. I don't see public libraries going away, > lots of people like their hardcopy books. Therefore I don't see NLS > going away as a lender of paper braille books. I still like reading > paper braille from time to time and there are plenty of blind people > who aren't very computer literate. People still like buying print > hardcovers and paperbooks; in that same vain, I don't see the National > Braille Press going away. But sighted people don't get free ebooks, > why should we? It used to be that we needed them because they were > the only ebooks we could read with a braille display, not so anymore. > If we're going to be true to our philosophy as Federationists, it's > not fair for us to want preferential treatment here. Do we really > mean it when we say we want to be equal citizens? If we do, it's high > time we start paying an equal price, especially since it's not that > hard to read ebooks on a braille display, if we know what we're doing, > and it's only going to get easier as programs such as the Blio and > Kindle improve their access. I say we'll only be treated like > everyone else when we realize that equality isn't an extra handout, it > isn't just a change in society's attitudes towards us, but it's mostly > an acceptence of the responsibilities that come with first-class > citizenship! And getting ebooks for free or at a very steap discount, > while everyone else has to pay, is definitely not an equal > responsibility. Who's with me? > All the best, > Kirt > > On 5/24/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Hi Kerry, >> Interesting question. Yes we do have more access to mainstream books >> through >> comericial audio like audible.com and Random House has recorded books and >> Amozon has many recorded books too. >> That said I do not see NLS going away for a long time. As others said, >> there is still a place for a hard copy braille book, despite technology. >> You can only get certain things on braille paper such as paragraphs >> structure that you cannot get on a linear display. You can take a >> braille >> book anywhere and its durable. Besides not everyone is tech savy or has a >> braille display on their notetaker if they own one. >> >> As to bookshare, I'm not so sure of that. >> Part of me thinks it will go away. If electronic books become accessible >> from distributors and publishers, then why would anyone need bookshare? >> That is a source of electronic books after all. If we all can read books >> via >> our computers or hook a braille display to the PC to read, then that >> serves >> the same purpose of bookkshare. >> >> But if bookshare comes to a demise, I do not see that happening for a >> long >> time. It will be a slow decline of users. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jorge Paez >> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:17 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >> >> I think Bookshare will go away. >> Yes, you can read books with a braille display, if you have an iPhone 4 >> or >> above. >> And also: can't you use your notetaker with the PC as a braille display? >> I don't see NLS going any time soon just for the braille books. >> They might move away from audio/online, but the braille books are still >> valuable. >> I, like you, want to read the digital stuff on a display too. >> >> On May 24, 2011, at 8:42 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote: >> >>> Hey Guys: >>> >>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >>> to get your thoughts. >>> >>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>> the NLS library service should go away. >>> >>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>> >>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>> >>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>> >>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>> >>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>> reading. >>> >>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>> >>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>> away completely. >>> >>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>> purposes. >>> >>> Kerri >>> >>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>> >>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>> with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>> impaired community. >>> >>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just >>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>> question. >>> >>> •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>> materials in accessible formats. >>> •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>> •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>> commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide >>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>> including mobile phones. >>> •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>> •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these >>> bodies. >>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>> >>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>> treatment?" >>> >>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>> >>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>> >>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>> none who would argue that point. >>> >>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>> media such as music or movies. >>> >>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>> >>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone else? >>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we pay >>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>> college? >>> >>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>> >>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I’m >>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open >>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>> >>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>> just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >>> the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>> books for their hard work? >>> >>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>> printed materials handed over for free? >>> >>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>> >>> I know which outcome I’m hoping for. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > From kaybaycar at gmail.com Wed May 25 03:36:04 2011 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 22:36:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well said. I agree with those statements. I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and order hard copy books. We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just us. That just doesn't seem right to me. I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: > Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and > many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, > that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal > access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental > problem with this article: > > ": > For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually > impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot > afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of > the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The > unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those > who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of > free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS > up to these unfortunates?" > > Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their > disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. > > Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately > delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many > users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would > not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a > model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. > Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as > the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for > sighted individuals. > > Brice > > On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >> Hey Guys: >> >> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >> to get your thoughts. >> >> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >> the NLS library service should go away. >> >> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >> >> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >> >> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >> >> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >> >> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >> reading. >> >> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >> >> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >> away completely. >> >> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >> purposes. >> >> Kerri >> >> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >> by Josh de Lioncourt >> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >> >> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >> with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >> impaired community. >> >> Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just >> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >> question. >> >> •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >> materials in accessible formats. >> •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >> •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >> commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide >> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >> including mobile phones. >> •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >> •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these >> bodies. >> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >> >> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >> treatment?" >> >> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >> >> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >> >> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >> none who would argue that point. >> >> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >> media such as music or movies. >> >> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >> >> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone else? >> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we pay >> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >> college? >> >> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >> >> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I’m >> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open >> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >> >> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >> just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >> the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >> books for their hard work? >> >> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >> printed materials handed over for free? >> >> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >> >> I know which outcome I’m hoping for. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Brice Smith > North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations > Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding Eyes for the Blind "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 25 04:01:09 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 22:01:09 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Julie, More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I honestly don't know what is. I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please don't take my passion as a personal attack. With respect, Kirt On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: > Well said. I agree with those statements. > > I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do > when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go > to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and > order hard copy books. > > We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not > many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by > the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to > books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. > > I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean > that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books > just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same > choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we > don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be > forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that > is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from > us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to > switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just > us. That just doesn't seem right to me. > > I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I > find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. > > > > On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >> problem with this article: >> >> ": >> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >> up to these unfortunates?" >> >> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >> >> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >> sighted individuals. >> >> Brice >> >> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>> Hey Guys: >>> >>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >>> to get your thoughts. >>> >>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>> the NLS library service should go away. >>> >>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>> >>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>> >>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>> >>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>> >>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>> reading. >>> >>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>> >>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>> away completely. >>> >>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>> purposes. >>> >>> Kerri >>> >>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>> >>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>> with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>> impaired community. >>> >>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just >>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>> question. >>> >>> •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>> materials in accessible formats. >>> •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>> •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>> commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide >>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>> including mobile phones. >>> •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>> •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these >>> bodies. >>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>> >>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>> treatment?" >>> >>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>> >>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>> >>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>> none who would argue that point. >>> >>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>> media such as music or movies. >>> >>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>> >>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone else? >>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we pay >>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>> college? >>> >>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>> >>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I’m >>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open >>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>> >>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>> just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >>> the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>> books for their hard work? >>> >>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>> printed materials handed over for free? >>> >>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>> >>> I know which outcome I’m hoping for. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Brice Smith >> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera > Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding > Eyes for the Blind > > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dandrews at visi.com Wed May 25 04:18:44 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 23:18:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Press Release: Design Science and ETS receive grant to boost math accessibility Message-ID: >Subject: Press Release: Design Science and ETS receive grant to >boost math accessibility >Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 11:11:00 -0700 >Hi, > >We are sending this message because you asked us to keep you informed >about our products and technologies. > >We are happy to announce that Design Science, along with Educational >Testing Service, have received a U.S. Department of Education grant to >jointly develop math-to-speech tools. > >This will be of interest to those involved in STEM education, >accessibility and publishing. The press release has been published on >our website and is included below. >http://www.dessci.com/en/company/press/releases/110524.htm > >Best Regards, >--Bruce > >Bruce Virga -- brucev at dessci.com >EVP of Sales & Business Development, COO > >Tel: +1 (562) 432-2920 >Fax: +1 (562) 432-2857 >Mobile: +1 (949) 233-8212 > >Design Science, Inc. -- www.dessci.com >140 Pine Avenue, 4th Floor >Long Beach, California 90802 USA > >~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation Editor ~ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >- >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > >New Math-to-Speech Technologies to Help Blind and Visually Impaired >Students Master Mathematics > >Long Beach, Calif. - May 24, 2011 - Design Science and Educational >Testing Service (ETS) have announced they are working jointly to modify >MathType(TM) and MathPlayer(TM), so that classroom materials, tests and >other documents containing mathematical content may be clearly spoken by >computers. This new math-to-speech technology will provide students who >are blind or have other visual impairments, the tools they need to >learn, practice, and take math and science tests on a more equal footing >with their classroom peers. > >Some of the country's leading subject-matter experts and developers of >assistive technology for students who are blind or visually impaired, >will assist on the project which begins July 1, 2011, and is supported >by a $1.5 million Institute of Education Sciences grant. > >"Existing assistive technology that provides synthetic speech for >electronic text does at best a limited job of making math accessible for >this group of students," explains Lois Frankel, an ETS Assessment >Specialist and the leader of the effort. "The current technology falls >short because it generally does not 'know' how to describe mathematical >expressions, especially in a way that provides access to their nonlinear >structure. > >"ETS and Design Science will work together to enhance MathPlayer, the >tool that voices the math encoded in MathML, so that it sounds more like >what students - particularly those in Algebra I - are used to hearing," >Frankel says. "We also plan to work on a number of customizations to >MathType, including a feature to allow teachers and other users to >select how mathematical expressions are described. For example, they >could select whether the machine says 'four over five' or 'four fifths.' >Another customization we plan to add is keyboard navigation that allows >blind or visually impaired users to go back and replay voiced segments >in mathematically meaningful 'chunks.' Our goal is to provide students >and teachers with a better system for voicing mathematical notation that >includes some truly useful functionality." > >"It has been a long-term Design Science goal to make math accessible, >and our team have been working hard at it for over six years," said Neil >Soiffer, Senior Scientist at Design Science. "It's a great opportunity >to be partnering with an organization the stature and importance of ETS, >to push the state-of-the-art forward." > >Working with Frankel and Soiffer on the effort are ETS Assessment >Specialist Beth Brownstein, Research Scientist Eric Hansen, and Senior >Research Scientist Cara Laitusis. Among the other organizations and >consultants who will take part in the project are: > >- Dewitt & Associates, specializes in accessibility training, learning >systems and support, and will provide advice on the implementation of >MathML accessibility tools and assist in the development of training >modules for students and teachers. >- GW Micro, a leading firm in the adaptive technology industry, will >modify its Window-Eyes screen reader software to work seamlessly with >the tools developed by the project. >- Jim Allan, the accessibility coordinator and webmaster for the Texas >School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. >- Maylene Bird, a teacher of mathematics to visually impaired students >at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. >- Christine Hinton, a Program Development Specialist for the New Jersey >Commission for the Blind and Visually Impaired, will help recruit >student participants from inclusive schools in New Jersey. >- Gaylen Kapperman, a professor of Education who is also blind, with >specialization in research and development projects pertaining to >mathematics instruction and assistive technology used by individuals who >are blind or are visually impaired. >- Abraham Nemeth, the author of The Nemeth Braille Code for Mathematics >and Science Notation, and a blind expert in making mathematics >accessible to blind individuals. >- Susan Osterhaus, a secondary mathematics teacher and statewide >accessibility expert at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually >Impaired. > >"The criteria for success in this project will be three-fold," explains >Marisa Farnum, Vice President of Assessment Development at ETS. "First, >will students using the tailored tools over the status quo be better >able to solve algebra problems at an appropriate level? And, are they >better able to correctly identify the structure of algebra-level math >expressions when using the tools? Second, will math teachers be able to >use the authoring tools developed by this project to quickly and easily >create math materials that are accessible to their students with visual >impairments? And finally, do the teachers and students who participate >as subjects in these development efforts find the tools provided usable >and convenient?" > >About Design Science >Founded in 1986 and headquartered in Long Beach, California, Design >Science develops software used by educators, scientists and publishing >professionals, including MathType, Equation Editor in Microsoft Office, >MathFlow, MathDaisy and MathPlayer, to communicate on the web and in >print. For more information please visit www.dessci.com. > >About ETS >At nonprofit ETS, we advance quality and equity in education for people >worldwide by creating assessments based on rigorous research. ETS serves >individuals, educational institutions and government agencies by >providing customized solutions for teacher certification, English >language learning, and elementary, secondary and post-secondary >education, as well as conducting education research, analysis and policy >studies. Founded in 1947, ETS develops, administers and scores more than >50 million tests annually - including the TOEFL(r) and TOEIC(r) tests, >the GRE(r) tests and The Praxis Series(tm) assessments - in more than >180 countries, at over 9,000 locations worldwide. www.ets.org. > >### > >Design Science Contact: >Bruce Virga >brucev at dessci.com >800-827-0685 >+1 (562) 432-2920 >Design Science, Inc. >140 Pine Avenue, 4th Floor >Long Beach, CA 90802 >USA > >ETS Contact: >Tom Ewing >tewing at ets.org >+1 (609) 683-2803 >Education Testing Service >External Relations >Princeton, NJ 08541-0001 >USA From cnaylor073 at gmail.com Wed May 25 04:20:15 2011 From: cnaylor073 at gmail.com (Christina Mitchell) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 21:20:15 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I love my braille folks. I first learned it when I was 10 and I'm hooked on it. Before I learned braille I couldn't spell worth a piece of crap. I felt like a retard asking teachers in school to spell certain words. I could spell simple words but those big ones (those you find in SAT books) were my toughest. I read braille everyday now. Since I'm using braille more over audio, my spelling and grammar has gotten better. On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Julie, > More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to > libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream > ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and > probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous > rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library > like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book > we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to > buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile > idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so > we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get > an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. > And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple > devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here > and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be > treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options > (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else > and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I > honestly don't know what is. > I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's > feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please > don't take my passion as a personal attack. > With respect, > Kirt > > On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >> Well said. I agree with those statements. >> >> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >> order hard copy books. >> >> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. >> >> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >> >> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I >> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >> >> >> >> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>> problem with this article: >>> >>> ": >>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >>> up to these unfortunates?" >>> >>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>> >>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>> sighted individuals. >>> >>> Brice >>> >>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>> Hey Guys: >>>> >>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >>>> to get your thoughts. >>>> >>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>> >>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>> >>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>> >>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>> >>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>> >>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>> reading. >>>> >>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>> >>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>>> away completely. >>>> >>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>>> purposes. >>>> >>>> Kerri >>>> >>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>> >>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>>> with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>>> impaired community. >>>> >>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just >>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>> question. >>>> >>>> •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>> •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>> •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>> commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide >>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>> including mobile phones. >>>> •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>> •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these >>>> bodies. >>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>> >>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>> treatment?" >>>> >>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>> >>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>> >>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>>> none who would argue that point. >>>> >>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>> media such as music or movies. >>>> >>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>> >>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone else? >>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we pay >>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>>> college? >>>> >>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>> >>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I’m >>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open >>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>> >>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>> just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >>>> the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>> books for their hard work? >>>> >>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>> >>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>> >>>> I know which outcome I’m hoping for. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >> Eyes for the Blind >> >> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >> life." >> John 3:16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cnaylor073%40gmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Wed May 25 04:26:06 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 23:26:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? In-Reply-To: <05AED562-935B-4C73-9662-E91D7A3B6EF4@panix.com> References: <263213EE-1851-4A16-A32E-7C4D91FC4DB0@gmail.com> <05AED562-935B-4C73-9662-E91D7A3B6EF4@panix.com> Message-ID: Amen! Anything, but, "visually impaired!" Blessings, Joshua On 5/24/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > What's wrong with the word "blind"? > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 24, 2011, at 19:30, Joshua Lester > wrote: > >> I joined, for the reasons, everyone here mentioned. >> I'm actually going to join the group, next year, at convention. >> I do, however, want to say, that the term should be sight impaired. >> I like Chris's motto, "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision." >> That's what I agree with. >> I hate "Visually impaired." >> That is the worst term in the world! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 5/24/11, Justin Young wrote: >>> I joined because I love hearing all the great ideas/suggestions/advice >>> people have to give whenever I am unsure of what to do/where to find >>> something or anything along these lines. I also love helping when I >>> know the answer to someone else who is unsure of something as well. I >>> also love reading all the amazing things that people in their >>> divisions are doing! Finally, I must agree with the point that we >>> have to put an end to the missconceptions that some people still have >>> about us(Blind/Visually Impaired individuals). >>> >>> Justin >>> >>> On 5/24/11, anjelinac26 at gmail.com wrote: >>>> I joined nabs to learn from other blind students as well as hoping to do >>>> what I can to change societies misconceptions of blindness. The list has >>>> been a valuable sounding board for questions over the years. >>>> >>>> Anjelina >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On May 24, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hey all, >>>>> I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? >>>>> Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions and >>>>> more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want to be >>>>> involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post >>>>> messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at >>>>> Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you contribute >>>>> to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of your >>>>> state division. >>>>> If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed. >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> Darian >>>>> >>>>> p.s. I am seriously curious :) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Darian Smith >>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>> >>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>> >>>>> — Robert Byrne >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 25 04:28:16 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 22:28:16 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of getting them on a silver platter I'm done now, Kirt On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Julie, > More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to > libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream > ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and > probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous > rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library > like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book > we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to > buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile > idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so > we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get > an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. > And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple > devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here > and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be > treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options > (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else > and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I > honestly don't know what is. > I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's > feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please > don't take my passion as a personal attack. > With respect, > Kirt > > On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >> Well said. I agree with those statements. >> >> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >> order hard copy books. >> >> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. >> >> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >> >> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I >> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >> >> >> >> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>> problem with this article: >>> >>> ": >>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >>> up to these unfortunates?" >>> >>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>> >>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>> sighted individuals. >>> >>> Brice >>> >>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>> Hey Guys: >>>> >>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >>>> to get your thoughts. >>>> >>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>> >>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>> >>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>> >>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>> >>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>> >>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>> reading. >>>> >>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>> >>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>>> away completely. >>>> >>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>>> purposes. >>>> >>>> Kerri >>>> >>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>> >>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>>> with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>>> impaired community. >>>> >>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just >>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>> question. >>>> >>>> •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>> •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>> •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>> commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide >>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>> including mobile phones. >>>> •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>> •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>> these >>>> bodies. >>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>> >>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>> treatment?" >>>> >>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>> >>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>> >>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>>> none who would argue that point. >>>> >>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>> media such as music or movies. >>>> >>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>> >>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone else? >>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we pay >>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>>> college? >>>> >>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>> >>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I’m >>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open >>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>> >>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>> just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >>>> the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>> books for their hard work? >>>> >>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>> >>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>> >>>> I know which outcome I’m hoping for. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >> Eyes for the Blind >> >> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >> life." >> John 3:16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > From ignasicambra at gmail.com Wed May 25 05:26:00 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 01:26:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9E74A93E-8F17-48E0-968A-79E558D18275@gmail.com> Wasn't the latest conference call about technology...? On May 24, 2011, at 11:38 PM, Nabslinkaudio.org Web Master wrote: > > > Greetings! > This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download. > > Title: The Nabs Membership Call For April 2011 > Description: > It's time to visit a topic that some understand well, others sort of get it, and some either have questions or don't know what it's all about. I'm speaking about NFB philosophy. Come hear some great ideas for encouraging people to reach their potential that were offered in this call. Learn how the NFB helps to raise the bar of expectation regarding what we as blind people can do. > > > > You can download the show directly at: > http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/April2011Call.mp3 > > Alternatively you can visit the archive page at: > http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations > to hear some of the other calls we've done. > Best regards, > David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee > http://www.nabslinkaudio.org > http://www.nabslink.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Wed May 25 09:14:21 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 05:14:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: TalkBack does work for several applications, I just find it rather buggy and shaky. Mobile accessibility comes with a suite of applications which of course work well, but on touch screen phones there's the option of using it outside of those applications. That doesn't work nearly as well, but it's nice to have the option. On May 24, 2011, at 6:24 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > Hi IC: > Thanks for your info. > Is Mobile Accessibility better then Talckback at least? > > Also: I thought Code Factory said that Mobile Accessibility didn't work outside the suite of apps if you were using a touch screen. > > Are you saying that for the most part the Mobile Accessibility suite is all that can be used at this point by the blind? > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > > On May 24, 2011, at 6:17 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > >> In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done. I have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, none of the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on an iPhone. If you need a fully functional phone and you need to accomplish things quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not ready yet. If you want to try something new and you are willing to give up on some usability and convenience, try getting an Android phone and see how it goes. If you are planning on using Mobile Accessibility I would recommend that you get a touch screen phone. >> >> IC >> On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >>> Hi all: >>> Just wondering, >>> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in the Android platform. >>> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >>> Is TalkBack any good? >>> >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From seacknit at gmail.com Wed May 25 11:19:35 2011 From: seacknit at gmail.com (Sally Thomas) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 06:19:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3BC90F43F8BB44E1A1BF82BF76715E12@OwnerPC> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce accessible textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more books are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would be foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first when designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks accessible. Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the hands of blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated process for producing quality braille. Sally Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of getting them on a silver platter I'm done now, Kirt On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Julie, > More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to > libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream > ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and > probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous > rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library > like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book > we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to > buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile > idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so > we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get > an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. > And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple > devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here > and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be > treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options > (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else > and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I > honestly don't know what is. > I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's > feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please > don't take my passion as a personal attack. > With respect, > Kirt > > On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >> Well said. I agree with those statements. >> >> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >> order hard copy books. >> >> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. >> >> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >> >> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I >> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >> >> >> >> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>> problem with this article: >>> >>> ": >>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >>> up to these unfortunates?" >>> >>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>> >>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>> sighted individuals. >>> >>> Brice >>> >>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>> Hey Guys: >>>> >>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >>>> to get your thoughts. >>>> >>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>> >>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>> >>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>> >>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>> >>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>> >>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>> reading. >>>> >>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>> >>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>>> away completely. >>>> >>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>>> purposes. >>>> >>>> Kerri >>>> >>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>> >>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>>> with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>>> impaired community. >>>> >>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just >>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>> question. >>>> >>>> •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>> •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>> •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>> commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide >>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>> including mobile phones. >>>> •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>> •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>> these >>>> bodies. >>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>> >>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>> treatment?" >>>> >>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>> >>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>> >>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>>> none who would argue that point. >>>> >>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>> media such as music or movies. >>>> >>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>> >>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone else? >>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we pay >>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>>> college? >>>> >>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>> >>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I’m >>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open >>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>> >>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>> just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >>>> the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>> books for their hard work? >>>> >>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>> >>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>> >>>> I know which outcome I’m hoping for. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >> Eyes for the Blind >> >> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >> life." >> John 3:16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Wed May 25 11:41:19 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 07:41:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: <90C89F214F3745D284155FF11278193E@SerenaPC> Message-ID: <4ddceae3.a559e60a.368d.ffffb5bb@mx.google.com> Yes that is a good question. I think that what we have now should stay. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Serena Cucco Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:05 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Hey Kerrie, All great points and how about for those of us who simply don't want an iphone? Serena -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kerri Kosten Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 8:42 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Hey Guys: I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted to get your thoughts. The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and the NLS library service should go away. Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for reading. What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went away completely. hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion purposes. Kerri Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion by Josh de Lioncourt A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually impaired community. Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at just a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this question. .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing materials in accessible formats. .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from their users before they are able to gain access to the content provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle provide access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, including mobile phones. .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these bodies. This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential treatment?" Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information they needed online than by visiting a physical library. The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find none who would argue that point. With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment media such as music or movies. While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a future of equal access with our sighted peers. It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone else? Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we pay for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community college? For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod touch can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions ultimately be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining books for their hard work? Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our printed materials handed over for free? We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? I know which outcome I'm hoping for. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serena.c.cucco%40gma il.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmai l.com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Wed May 25 11:45:44 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 07:45:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? In-Reply-To: <263213EE-1851-4A16-A32E-7C4D91FC4DB0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ddcebec.a079dc0a.72ca.09f7@mx.google.com> I joined the list list because I wanted to connect with other blind students. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of anjelinac26 at gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:53 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? I joined nabs to learn from other blind students as well as hoping to do what I can to change societies misconceptions of blindness. The list has been a valuable sounding board for questions over the years. Anjelina Sent from my iPhone On May 24, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Darian Smith wrote: > Hey all, > I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? > Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions and > more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want to be > involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post > messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at > Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you contribute > to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of your > state division. > If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed. > Thanks! > Darian > > p.s. I am seriously curious :) > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail. com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmai l.com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Wed May 25 11:55:34 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 07:55:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4ddcee3a.42abe60a.28d3.ffffb576@mx.google.com> I like the wird blind! I am more comfortable telling people that I am blind. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 12:26 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? Amen! Anything, but, "visually impaired!" Blessings, Joshua On 5/24/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > What's wrong with the word "blind"? > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 24, 2011, at 19:30, Joshua Lester > wrote: > >> I joined, for the reasons, everyone here mentioned. >> I'm actually going to join the group, next year, at convention. >> I do, however, want to say, that the term should be sight impaired. >> I like Chris's motto, "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision." >> That's what I agree with. >> I hate "Visually impaired." >> That is the worst term in the world! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 5/24/11, Justin Young wrote: >>> I joined because I love hearing all the great ideas/suggestions/advice >>> people have to give whenever I am unsure of what to do/where to find >>> something or anything along these lines. I also love helping when I >>> know the answer to someone else who is unsure of something as well. I >>> also love reading all the amazing things that people in their >>> divisions are doing! Finally, I must agree with the point that we >>> have to put an end to the missconceptions that some people still have >>> about us(Blind/Visually Impaired individuals). >>> >>> Justin >>> >>> On 5/24/11, anjelinac26 at gmail.com wrote: >>>> I joined nabs to learn from other blind students as well as hoping to do >>>> what I can to change societies misconceptions of blindness. The list has >>>> been a valuable sounding board for questions over the years. >>>> >>>> Anjelina >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On May 24, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hey all, >>>>> I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? >>>>> Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions and >>>>> more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want to be >>>>> involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post >>>>> messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at >>>>> Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you contribute >>>>> to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of your >>>>> state division. >>>>> If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed. >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> Darian >>>>> >>>>> p.s. I am seriously curious :) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Darian Smith >>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>> >>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>> >>>>> - Robert Byrne >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail. com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40studen ts.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40studen ts.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmai l.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Wed May 25 12:47:09 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 08:47:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6DBB8369-33A7-415A-818D-1DF45D7F04AD@gmail.com> Jorge, I think I must have been quite sleepy this morning. The touch screen is usable within the suite of apps in Mobile Accessibility, but not outside. Sorry about the confusion! On the web browser, for example, the experience with the touch screen is pretty nice. On May 24, 2011, at 6:24 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > Hi IC: > Thanks for your info. > Is Mobile Accessibility better then Talckback at least? > > Also: I thought Code Factory said that Mobile Accessibility didn't work outside the suite of apps if you were using a touch screen. > > Are you saying that for the most part the Mobile Accessibility suite is all that can be used at this point by the blind? > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > > On May 24, 2011, at 6:17 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > >> In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done. I have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, none of the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on an iPhone. If you need a fully functional phone and you need to accomplish things quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not ready yet. If you want to try something new and you are willing to give up on some usability and convenience, try getting an Android phone and see how it goes. If you are planning on using Mobile Accessibility I would recommend that you get a touch screen phone. >> >> IC >> On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >>> Hi all: >>> Just wondering, >>> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in the Android platform. >>> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >>> Is TalkBack any good? >>> >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Wed May 25 13:52:39 2011 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 08:52:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kirt, The points you raise are worth thinking about. Part of what I value about the NFB is that we try to ask whether we need a given service. I would raise these cautions, though. First, sighted people can get audio books from public libraries. Many have them available to be borrowed on CD and there are even time-limited licensed downloads. The role of libraries in society's future is probably going to change, but I hope they don't go away completely, for us or for the sighted. Our ability to save downloads is different, though, but I wonder what the percentage of people is who truly save them to read them again. There are people who do, but there are certainly sighted people who return to the library to get the same book or to refer to the same encyclopedias. Second, while I would generally agree about technology, I would not count your chickens before they hatch. Most of our technology is just not as seamless as is using vision. There is likely always going to be blind people who have difficulty mastering the technology just as is the case for sighted people. For sighted people, though, there are still nontechnological options. Third, our technology is expensive, especially braille displays. Our unemployment rate is way higher than that of mainstream society so many of us are not in a position to purchase the technology that is needed. There are a number of ways this could change in our favor, but we're not there yet. Finally, while there are laws that encourage accessibility, there is nothing absolute in law. Some laws encourage accessibility but they don't guarantee it. The two biggest players in computer technology now, Microsoft and Apple, are putting forth a pretty good effort at the moment, but we don't know what the stage will look like in five years. Ten years ago, I would have assumed that Microsoft Word would be without accessibility problems, but in some ways it is harder to use now than it was then. In my mind, if we were to endorse the reduction of the role of NLS or BookShare, we would need an iron-clad legal requirement that texts and the means to read them be accessible, and we would need funding for the devices that makes texts accessible for those who can't afford such technology and it would need to be independent of getting a job. Specifically, this kind of help would have to be made for seniors and for persons for whom employment is not likely. Most of the help we get with technology now is as part of an employment plan. While I don't disagree with your assertion that if we have the ability to read mainstream materials that we need to consider our need for special access, I think that it would be incorrect to assume what technology is going to do for us until we see it actually doing it and we have some means of guaranteeing that it will continue doing it. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Tue, 24 May 2011 22:28:16 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), > Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >getting them on a silver platter > I'm done now, >Kirt >On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Julie, >> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >> honestly don't know what is. >> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >> With respect, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>> >>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>> order hard copy books. >>> >>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. >>> >>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>> >>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I >>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>> problem with this article: >>>> >>>> ": >>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>> >>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>> >>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>> sighted individuals. >>>> >>>> Brice >>>> >>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>> >>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>> >>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>> >>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>> >>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>> reading. >>>>> >>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>> >>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>>>> away completely. >>>>> >>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>>>> purposes. >>>>> >>>>> Kerri >>>>> >>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>> >>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>>>> with whom Ive been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>>>> impaired community. >>>>> >>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, lets take a quick look at just >>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>> question. >>>>> >>>>> "In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>> "Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>> "Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>> commercial solutions like Apples iBooks and Amazons Kindle provide >>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>> "Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>> "Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>> these >>>>> bodies. >>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>> >>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>> treatment?" >>>>> >>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>> >>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>> >>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>> >>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>> >>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>> >>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVDs like everyone else? >>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isnt worth as much as we pay >>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>>>> college? >>>>> >>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>> >>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and Im >>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why dont we open >>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>> >>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>> just $229 USD? This isnt even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >>>>> the BookSense. Wouldnt money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>> >>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>> >>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>> >>>>> I know which outcome Im hoping for. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Brice Smith >>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Julie McG >>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>> Eyes for the Blind >>> >>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>> life." >>> John 3:16 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed May 25 14:08:27 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 10:08:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download In-Reply-To: <9E74A93E-8F17-48E0-968A-79E558D18275@gmail.com> References: <9E74A93E-8F17-48E0-968A-79E558D18275@gmail.com> Message-ID: <203A2F9932BA49A9BE398FDEFEA50856@OwnerPC> Ic, It was but remember here was a message stating that call was not recorded. There fore April's call is the latest call that is digitized. -----Original Message----- From: Ignasi Cambra Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 1:26 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download Wasn't the latest conference call about technology...? On May 24, 2011, at 11:38 PM, Nabslinkaudio.org Web Master wrote: > > > Greetings! > This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest > conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download. > > Title: The Nabs Membership Call For April 2011 > Description: > It's time to visit a topic that some understand well, others sort of get > it, and some either have questions or don't know what it's all about. I'm > speaking about NFB philosophy. Come hear some great ideas for encouraging > people to reach their potential that were offered in this call. Learn how > the NFB helps to raise the bar of expectation regarding what we as blind > people can do. > > > > You can download the show directly at: > http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/April2011Call.mp3 > > Alternatively you can visit the archive page at: > http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations > to hear some of the other calls we've done. > Best regards, > David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee > http://www.nabslinkaudio.org > http://www.nabslink.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Wed May 25 16:25:24 2011 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 12:25:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download In-Reply-To: <203A2F9932BA49A9BE398FDEFEA50856@OwnerPC> References: <9E74A93E-8F17-48E0-968A-79E558D18275@gmail.com> <203A2F9932BA49A9BE398FDEFEA50856@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Let me just clarify.. First off, sorry the links for the training centers appeared that way in email. I have a feeling unless your email is set to display html it'll be weird like that. Yes, APril is the most recent call sadly. Ironic that technology would fail in a technology conference. But as I also said, I'll be working with the membership committee to get the audio sounding better, get the recordings to not fail like that as has happened at times, and most importantly, to make it so these calls can be heard live as they're happening as it was when this project first started. I can tell you now that the meeting from National Convention will be on the nabslinkaudio.org site as one large download, unless people want it broken up, but that will be much harder to set up with our archival system as it is now. >From David From k7uij at panix.com Wed May 25 16:26:57 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 09:26:57 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9682803D-803F-4BAA-A279-065806593B91@panix.com> Kirt: I believe your expectation of easy Braille access to mainstream e-format books is premature. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 24, 2011, at 21:01, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Julie, > More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to > libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream > ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and > probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous > rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library > like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book > we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to > buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile > idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so > we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get > an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. > And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple > devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here > and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be > treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options > (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else > and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I > honestly don't know what is. > I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's > feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please > don't take my passion as a personal attack. > With respect, > Kirt > > On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >> Well said. I agree with those statements. >> >> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >> order hard copy books. >> >> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. >> >> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >> >> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I >> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >> >> >> >> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>> problem with this article: >>> >>> ": >>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >>> up to these unfortunates?" >>> >>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>> >>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>> sighted individuals. >>> >>> Brice >>> >>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>> Hey Guys: >>>> >>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >>>> to get your thoughts. >>>> >>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>> >>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>> >>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>> >>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>> >>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>> >>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>> reading. >>>> >>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>> >>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>>> away completely. >>>> >>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>>> purposes. >>>> >>>> Kerri >>>> >>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>> >>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>>> with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>>> impaired community. >>>> >>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just >>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>> question. >>>> >>>> •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>> •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>> •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>> commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide >>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>> including mobile phones. >>>> •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>> •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these >>>> bodies. >>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>> >>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>> treatment?" >>>> >>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>> >>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>> >>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>>> none who would argue that point. >>>> >>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>> media such as music or movies. >>>> >>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>> >>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone else? >>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we pay >>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>>> college? >>>> >>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>> >>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I’m >>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open >>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>> >>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>> just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >>>> the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>> books for their hard work? >>>> >>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>> >>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>> >>>> I know which outcome I’m hoping for. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >> Eyes for the Blind >> >> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >> life." >> John 3:16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From k7uij at panix.com Wed May 25 16:33:02 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 09:33:02 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: <3BC90F43F8BB44E1A1BF82BF76715E12@OwnerPC> References: <3BC90F43F8BB44E1A1BF82BF76715E12@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <67C934E6-7EED-461A-AD4E-107941F1C119@panix.com> Bookshare is quality Braille? Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 25, 2011, at 4:19, "Sally Thomas" wrote: > There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce accessible textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more books are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would be foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first when designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks accessible. > > Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the hands of blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated process for producing quality braille. > > Sally Thomas > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > > One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), > Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point > where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D > audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too > long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker > or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it > just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that > trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long > until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to > read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as > using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), > I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our > hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few > posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get > ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are > probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't > as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I > download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like > every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of > getting them on a silver platter > I'm done now, > Kirt > > On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Julie, >> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >> honestly don't know what is. >> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >> With respect, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>> >>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>> order hard copy books. >>> >>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. >>> >>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>> >>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I >>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>> problem with this article: >>>> >>>> ": >>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>> >>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>> >>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>> sighted individuals. >>>> >>>> Brice >>>> >>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>> >>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>> >>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>> >>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>> >>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>> reading. >>>>> >>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>> >>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>>>> away completely. >>>>> >>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>>>> purposes. >>>>> >>>>> Kerri >>>>> >>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>> >>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>>>> with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>>>> impaired community. >>>>> >>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just >>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>> question. >>>>> >>>>> •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>> •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>> •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>> commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide >>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>> •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>> •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>> these >>>>> bodies. >>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>> >>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>> treatment?" >>>>> >>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>> >>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>> >>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>> >>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>> >>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>> >>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone else? >>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we pay >>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>>>> college? >>>>> >>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>> >>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I’m >>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open >>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>> >>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>> just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>> >>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>> >>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>> >>>>> I know which outcome I’m hoping for. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Brice Smith >>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Julie McG >>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>> Eyes for the Blind >>> >>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>> life." >>> John 3:16 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From th404 at comcast.net Wed May 25 16:34:31 2011 From: th404 at comcast.net (Tina Hansen) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 09:34:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download References: <9E74A93E-8F17-48E0-968A-79E558D18275@gmail.com><203A2F9932BA49A9BE398FDEFEA50856@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <8D09ECCCD198497397B703E80BF2F0D6@tinad85eb5cc31> Excellent. Also, for some reason, there is no audio from the seminar at Dallas or the division's midwinter conference at the Washington Seminar. Are there any plans to offer audio from the Dallas meeting or any other seminar in the near future on a regular basis? That's something that's bugged me for years. Thanks. From marsha.drenth at gmail.com Wed May 25 16:44:08 2011 From: marsha.drenth at gmail.com (Marsha Drenth) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 12:44:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62619017D846451FA669D03C02499857@Cptr233> I am a part of the students division not only because I'm a student, but because of the wealth of information that is provided on this list and in the division. Granted, I am not nearly as young as some of you, which some regards I feel a bit on the outside. This is the most likely the best place for the stage of life I'm in right now. Marsha -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:31 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? Hey all, I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions and more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want to be involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you contribute to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of your state division. If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed. Thanks! Darian p.s. I am seriously curious :) -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. - Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai l.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6149 (20110524) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6151 (20110525) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6151 (20110525) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From marsha.drenth at gmail.com Wed May 25 16:46:33 2011 From: marsha.drenth at gmail.com (Marsha Drenth) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 12:46:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1C4F44DD4E84485B9B27F7EB17F2504A@Cptr233> It is doubtful that NLS or Bookshare will ever go away. There is a huge need for both. And plus theyu are both not just used for students, or blind people, but by the disability community as a whole. Marsha -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kerri Kosten Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 8:42 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Hey Guys: I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted to get your thoughts. The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and the NLS library service should go away. Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for reading. What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went away completely. hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion purposes. Kerri Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion by Josh de Lioncourt A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually impaired community. Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at just a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this question. .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing materials in accessible formats. .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from their users before they are able to gain access to the content provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle provide access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, including mobile phones. .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these bodies. This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential treatment?" Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information they needed online than by visiting a physical library. The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find none who would argue that point. With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment media such as music or movies. While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a future of equal access with our sighted peers. It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone else? Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we pay for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community college? For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod touch can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions ultimately be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining books for their hard work? Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our printed materials handed over for free? We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? I know which outcome I'm hoping for. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai l.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6149 (20110524) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6151 (20110525) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6151 (20110525) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From liziswhatis at hotmail.com Wed May 25 16:46:31 2011 From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 11:46:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: <3BC90F43F8BB44E1A1BF82BF76715E12@OwnerPC> References: <3BC90F43F8BB44E1A1BF82BF76715E12@OwnerPC> Message-ID: TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with BookShare to make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of BKS books has improved over the years. Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sally Thomas Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce accessible textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more books are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would be foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first when designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks accessible. Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the hands of blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated process for producing quality braille. Sally Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of getting them on a silver platter I'm done now, Kirt On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Julie, > More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to > libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream > ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and > probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous > rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library > like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book > we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to > buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile > idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so > we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get > an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. > And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple > devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here > and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be > treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options > (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else > and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I > honestly don't know what is. > I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's > feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please > don't take my passion as a personal attack. > With respect, > Kirt > > On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >> Well said. I agree with those statements. >> >> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >> order hard copy books. >> >> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. >> >> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >> >> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I >> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >> >> >> >> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>> problem with this article: >>> >>> ": >>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >>> up to these unfortunates?" >>> >>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>> >>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>> sighted individuals. >>> >>> Brice >>> >>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>> Hey Guys: >>>> >>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >>>> to get your thoughts. >>>> >>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>> >>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>> >>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>> >>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>> >>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>> >>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>> reading. >>>> >>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>> >>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>>> away completely. >>>> >>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>>> purposes. >>>> >>>> Kerri >>>> >>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>> >>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>>> impaired community. >>>> >>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at just >>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>> question. >>>> >>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle provide >>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>> including mobile phones. >>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>> these >>>> bodies. >>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>> >>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>> treatment?" >>>> >>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>> >>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>> >>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>>> none who would argue that point. >>>> >>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>> media such as music or movies. >>>> >>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>> >>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone else? >>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we pay >>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>>> college? >>>> >>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>> >>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm >>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>> >>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>> books for their hard work? >>>> >>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>> >>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>> >>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma il.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co m >>> >> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >> Eyes for the Blind >> >> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >> life." >> John 3:16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com >> > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai l.com From Inquire at YBResourceful.com Wed May 25 16:49:47 2011 From: Inquire at YBResourceful.com (Front Desk of the YB RESOURCEFUL Consulting Talents(YBRCT)-A Resourceful Consulting ToolBox www.YBResourceful.com) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 12:49:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Inviting you to take a private French learning with me... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello everyone, hope you are enjoying your week. If you use instent messenger like yahoo, AIM, Skype, Live, you can use the voice part of it to connect with me, and take a one-on-one private French learning lessons with me! Even if you never learned French, I am here to kick it start from zero. Hours are flexible; hourly price is very negotiable, and you can just pay by a check, cash or PayPal. Reply with more questions or interest LearnFrench at YBRESOURCEFUL.com I look forward to helping you with your French, or pick up a new great language for any reasons. -Yegue (pronounced like Yeggay) -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 12:25 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: nabs-l Digest, Vol 55, Issue 43 Send nabs-l mailing list submissions to nabs-l at nfbnet.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org You can reach the person managing the list at nabs-l-owner at nfbnet.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of nabs-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download (Nabslinkaudio.org Web Master) 2. Fwd: Fitted cases for the sight Impaired by EPI (David Andrews) 3. New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download (Nabslinkaudio.org Web Master) 4. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare (Kirt Manwaring) 5. Re: Why Did I Join Nabs? (Mike Freeman) 6. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare (Kirt Manwaring) 7. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare (Julie McGinnity) 8. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare (Kirt Manwaring) 9. Fwd: Press Release: Design Science and ETS receive grant to boost math accessibility (David Andrews) 10. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare (Christina Mitchell) 11. Re: Why Did I Join Nabs? (Joshua Lester) 12. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare (Kirt Manwaring) 13. Re: New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download (Ignasi Cambra) 14. Re: Android and Mobile Accessibility (Ignasi Cambra) 15. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare (Sally Thomas) 16. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare (Rania Ismail) 17. Re: Why Did I Join Nabs? (Rania Ismail) 18. Re: Why Did I Join Nabs? (Rania Ismail) 19. Re: Android and Mobile Accessibility (Ignasi Cambra) 20. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare (Steve Jacobson) 21. Re: New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) 22. Re: New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download (David Dunphy) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 23:26:01 -0400 From: Nabslinkaudio.org Web Master To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download Message-ID: Greetings! This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download. Title: The Nabs Conference Call For March 2011 Description: On this call, we had the chance to hear about the summer programs offered by the NFB's four major training centers. These are Blindness, Learning In New Dimensions Blind Inc
The Colorado Center For The Blind
The Louisiana Center For The Blind
and Bism in Maryland
Learn about what these summer programs offer and how you can get involved with them. You can download the show directly at: http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/March2011Call.mp3 Alternatively you can visit the archive page at: http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations to hear some of the other calls we've done. Best regards, David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee http://www.nabslinkaudio.org http://www.nabslink.org ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 22:35:23 -0500 From: David Andrews To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Fitted cases for the sight Impaired by EPI Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" >From: "Al Eremita" >To: "Al Eremita" >Subject: Fitted cases for the sight Impaired by EPI >Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 16:25:43 -0700 > > > >Are your looking for a fitted case for your >Apex, Braille Sense, Iphone, or other Braille >products then go to >www.ExecutivePrdoctsInc.com? > >We at Executive Products has been in business >for 7 years now, creating case for the sight >impaired community. We have always had one goal >in mind and that was to protect your valuable >devices, and to make you and your devices >mobile. Over the years we have noticed that many >companies in the sight impaired community make >very good products but provide you with very >little protection to your devices. We have also >evolved to adapt to our customers needs and >always welcome your suggestions (such as using >magnets instead of Velcro when possible). > >If at any time you would like to purchase any >one of our cases you can always go to our >website >www.executiveproductinc.com >or call us anytime at 818-833-8080. Carol or Al >will be able happy to answer any questions you >may have or to help you place an order. > >We take great pride in working very closely with >the sight impaired community. We are also very >proud that all our products are made in the USA! > >Book Port Book Port >+ Braille+ > Braille Connect >32/40 Braille >Icon Braille Sense Plus 32 >BrailleNote Apex GW >BookSense GW Voice >Sense Iphone >3G/4G N82 > Plextalk >Trekker Breeze Victor >Stream Cane >Holders BX >400/420/440 QX >400/420/440 Braille & Speak >NLS/BPH cases Gps >Cases GPS-EarthMate, > Gps-Global >Sat, GPS-Holux >GpSlim 236 GPS-Holux I-Blue 737, >GPS-SysOn Book >courier SmartPhones Pouches S/M/L >Braille Lite >2000/M20/M40 >Braille Note BT/QT Mpower >BT/QT >Voice Note BT/QT Voice Note MPower BT/QT > >818-833-8080 > >Please pass this e-mail to your friends. > >Protect your unit?.. Buy an EPI case. > >Executive Products Inc. >tback_yellow-1 > >12900 Bradley Ave. >Sylmar Ca. 91342. >Fax: 818-833-5890 >Office: 818-833-8080 >Mobile: 818-723-8444 >www.ExecutiveProductsinc.com > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: c2cbda.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3615 bytes Desc: not available URL: ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 23:38:01 -0400 From: Nabslinkaudio.org Web Master To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download Message-ID: Greetings! This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download. Title: The Nabs Membership Call For April 2011 Description: It's time to visit a topic that some understand well, others sort of get it, and some either have questions or don't know what it's all about. I'm speaking about NFB philosophy. Come hear some great ideas for encouraging people to reach their potential that were offered in this call. Learn how the NFB helps to raise the bar of expectation regarding what we as blind people can do. You can download the show directly at: http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/April2011Call.mp3 Alternatively you can visit the archive page at: http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations to hear some of the other calls we've done. Best regards, David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee http://www.nabslinkaudio.org http://www.nabslink.org ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 21:39:09 -0600 From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 To all, First off, before I get roasted for disagreeing with you guys, I want to say that braille is absolutely critical. My biggest regret about my education so far (aside from my terrible habbit to procrastinate stuff), is that I've started using braille less and less and audio more and more. I really think it's damaged my learning and put me at a disadvantage and, while I'm still a great braille reader, I don't use it much as I ought to. That said, braille has helped me with spelling, grammar, imagination, and learning through reading rather than listening. I'm going to start relying on it more again and I guarantee my writing and reading comprehention will go from good to amazing-it's happened before and, so help me, I'm going to get back what I've lost by relegating braille to a back seat behind my computer. That being said, braille access to books from mainstream sources is increasing at a tremendous rate. I can use my apex as a braille display on my ITouch to read books I purchase via Ibooks. I'm going to make the prediction that, at some point within the next several years, using a notetaker or a braille display to read Kindel books will be practical-it's just a guess, but I'd be surprised if five years go by and I'm wrong. With KNFB developing the BLIO reader, I have no doubt support for braille displays will be integrated before too long. Reading books in mainstream formats on a braille display is already doable, braille and I think it will only expand. The way I see it, the ease of reading ebooks on a braille display, as well as the number of formats we'll be able to read on a braille display, will only increase. Now to address the philosophical point this article brings up. I totally agree with the author here. If we want to be treated as equals, we have to understand we need to demand equal responsibilities along with equal rights. I don't see public libraries going away, lots of people like their hardcopy books. Therefore I don't see NLS going away as a lender of paper braille books. I still like reading paper braille from time to time and there are plenty of blind people who aren't very computer literate. People still like buying print hardcovers and paperbooks; in that same vain, I don't see the National Braille Press going away. But sighted people don't get free ebooks, why should we? It used to be that we needed them because they were the only ebooks we could read with a braille display, not so anymore. If we're going to be true to our philosophy as Federationists, it's not fair for us to want preferential treatment here. Do we really mean it when we say we want to be equal citizens? If we do, it's high time we start paying an equal price, especially since it's not that hard to read ebooks on a braille display, if we know what we're doing, and it's only going to get easier as programs such as the Blio and Kindle improve their access. I say we'll only be treated like everyone else when we realize that equality isn't an extra handout, it isn't just a change in society's attitudes towards us, but it's mostly an acceptence of the responsibilities that come with first-class citizenship! And getting ebooks for free or at a very steap discount, while everyone else has to pay, is definitely not an equal responsibility. Who's with me? All the best, Kirt On 5/24/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi Kerry, > Interesting question. Yes we do have more access to mainstream books > through > comericial audio like audible.com and Random House has recorded books and > Amozon has many recorded books too. > That said I do not see NLS going away for a long time. As others said, > there is still a place for a hard copy braille book, despite technology. > You can only get certain things on braille paper such as paragraphs > structure that you cannot get on a linear display. You can take a braille > book anywhere and its durable. Besides not everyone is tech savy or has a > braille display on their notetaker if they own one. > > As to bookshare, I'm not so sure of that. > Part of me thinks it will go away. If electronic books become accessible > from distributors and publishers, then why would anyone need bookshare? > That is a source of electronic books after all. If we all can read books > via > our computers or hook a braille display to the PC to read, then that > serves > the same purpose of bookkshare. > > But if bookshare comes to a demise, I do not see that happening for a long > time. It will be a slow decline of users. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jorge Paez > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:17 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > I think Bookshare will go away. > Yes, you can read books with a braille display, if you have an iPhone 4 or > above. > And also: can't you use your notetaker with the PC as a braille display? > I don't see NLS going any time soon just for the braille books. > They might move away from audio/online, but the braille books are still > valuable. > I, like you, want to read the digital stuff on a display too. > > On May 24, 2011, at 8:42 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote: > >> Hey Guys: >> >> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >> to get your thoughts. >> >> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >> the NLS library service should go away. >> >> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >> >> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >> >> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >> >> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >> >> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >> reading. >> >> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >> >> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >> away completely. >> >> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >> purposes. >> >> Kerri >> >> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >> by Josh de Lioncourt >> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >> >> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >> with whom I?ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >> impaired community. >> >> Before exploring that aspect, though, let?s take a quick look at just >> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >> question. >> >> ?In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >> materials in accessible formats. >> ?Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >> ?Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >> commercial solutions like Apple?s iBooks and Amazon?s Kindle provide >> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >> including mobile phones. >> ?Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >> ?Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these >> bodies. >> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >> >> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >> treatment?" >> >> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >> >> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >> >> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >> none who would argue that point. >> >> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >> media such as music or movies. >> >> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >> >> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD?s like everyone else? >> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn?t worth as much as we pay >> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >> college? >> >> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >> >> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I?m >> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don?t we open >> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >> >> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >> just $229 USD? This isn?t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >> the BookSense. Wouldn?t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >> books for their hard work? >> >> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >> printed materials handed over for free? >> >> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >> >> I know which outcome I?m hoping for. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 20:41:01 -0700 From: Mike Freeman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? Message-ID: <05AED562-935B-4C73-9662-E91D7A3B6EF4 at panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 What's wrong with the word "blind"? Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 24, 2011, at 19:30, Joshua Lester wrote: > I joined, for the reasons, everyone here mentioned. > I'm actually going to join the group, next year, at convention. > I do, however, want to say, that the term should be sight impaired. > I like Chris's motto, "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision." > That's what I agree with. > I hate "Visually impaired." > That is the worst term in the world! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 5/24/11, Justin Young wrote: >> I joined because I love hearing all the great ideas/suggestions/advice >> people have to give whenever I am unsure of what to do/where to find >> something or anything along these lines. I also love helping when I >> know the answer to someone else who is unsure of something as well. I >> also love reading all the amazing things that people in their >> divisions are doing! Finally, I must agree with the point that we >> have to put an end to the missconceptions that some people still have >> about us(Blind/Visually Impaired individuals). >> >> Justin >> >> On 5/24/11, anjelinac26 at gmail.com wrote: >>> I joined nabs to learn from other blind students as well as hoping to do >>> what I can to change societies misconceptions of blindness. The list has >>> been a valuable sounding board for questions over the years. >>> >>> Anjelina >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On May 24, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >>> >>>> Hey all, >>>> I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? >>>> Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions and >>>> more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want to be >>>> involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post >>>> messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at >>>> Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you contribute >>>> to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of your >>>> state division. >>>> If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed. >>>> Thanks! >>>> Darian >>>> >>>> p.s. I am seriously curious :) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Darian Smith >>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>> >>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>> >>>> ? Robert Byrne >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 21:42:50 -0600 From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 To all, Please do your best to disregard the aweful grammar and terrible typos I made in that last post. That'll teach me to send stuff without double-checking and editing first! Anyways, my terrible delivery of that last message didn't do it justice. If it's not too jmuch trouble, read what I tried to write and not what I actually wrote. *grin* On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > To all, > First off, before I get roasted for disagreeing with you guys, I > want to say that braille is absolutely critical. My biggest regret > about my education so far (aside from my terrible habbit to > procrastinate stuff), is that I've started using braille less and less > and audio more and more. I really think it's damaged my learning and > put me at a disadvantage and, while I'm still a great braille reader, > I don't use it much as I ought to. That said, braille has helped me > with spelling, grammar, imagination, and learning through reading > rather than listening. I'm going to start relying on it more again > and I guarantee my writing and reading comprehention will go from good > to amazing-it's happened before and, so help me, I'm going to get back > what I've lost by relegating braille to a back seat behind my > computer. > That being said, braille access to books from mainstream sources is > increasing at a tremendous rate. I can use my apex as a braille > display on my ITouch to read books I purchase via Ibooks. I'm going > to make the prediction that, at some point within the next several > years, using a notetaker or a braille display to read Kindel books > will be practical-it's just a guess, but I'd be surprised if five > years go by and I'm wrong. With KNFB developing the BLIO reader, I > have no doubt support for braille displays will be integrated before > too long. Reading books in mainstream formats on a braille display is > already doable, braille and I think it will only expand. The way I > see it, the ease of reading ebooks on a braille display, as well as > the number of formats we'll be able to read on a braille display, will > only increase. > Now to address the philosophical point this article brings up. I > totally agree with the author here. If we want to be treated as > equals, we have to understand we need to demand equal responsibilities > along with equal rights. I don't see public libraries going away, > lots of people like their hardcopy books. Therefore I don't see NLS > going away as a lender of paper braille books. I still like reading > paper braille from time to time and there are plenty of blind people > who aren't very computer literate. People still like buying print > hardcovers and paperbooks; in that same vain, I don't see the National > Braille Press going away. But sighted people don't get free ebooks, > why should we? It used to be that we needed them because they were > the only ebooks we could read with a braille display, not so anymore. > If we're going to be true to our philosophy as Federationists, it's > not fair for us to want preferential treatment here. Do we really > mean it when we say we want to be equal citizens? If we do, it's high > time we start paying an equal price, especially since it's not that > hard to read ebooks on a braille display, if we know what we're doing, > and it's only going to get easier as programs such as the Blio and > Kindle improve their access. I say we'll only be treated like > everyone else when we realize that equality isn't an extra handout, it > isn't just a change in society's attitudes towards us, but it's mostly > an acceptence of the responsibilities that come with first-class > citizenship! And getting ebooks for free or at a very steap discount, > while everyone else has to pay, is definitely not an equal > responsibility. Who's with me? > All the best, > Kirt > > On 5/24/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Hi Kerry, >> Interesting question. Yes we do have more access to mainstream books >> through >> comericial audio like audible.com and Random House has recorded books and >> Amozon has many recorded books too. >> That said I do not see NLS going away for a long time. As others said, >> there is still a place for a hard copy braille book, despite technology. >> You can only get certain things on braille paper such as paragraphs >> structure that you cannot get on a linear display. You can take a >> braille >> book anywhere and its durable. Besides not everyone is tech savy or has a >> braille display on their notetaker if they own one. >> >> As to bookshare, I'm not so sure of that. >> Part of me thinks it will go away. If electronic books become accessible >> from distributors and publishers, then why would anyone need bookshare? >> That is a source of electronic books after all. If we all can read books >> via >> our computers or hook a braille display to the PC to read, then that >> serves >> the same purpose of bookkshare. >> >> But if bookshare comes to a demise, I do not see that happening for a >> long >> time. It will be a slow decline of users. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jorge Paez >> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:17 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >> >> I think Bookshare will go away. >> Yes, you can read books with a braille display, if you have an iPhone 4 >> or >> above. >> And also: can't you use your notetaker with the PC as a braille display? >> I don't see NLS going any time soon just for the braille books. >> They might move away from audio/online, but the braille books are still >> valuable. >> I, like you, want to read the digital stuff on a display too. >> >> On May 24, 2011, at 8:42 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote: >> >>> Hey Guys: >>> >>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >>> to get your thoughts. >>> >>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>> the NLS library service should go away. >>> >>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>> >>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>> >>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>> >>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>> >>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>> reading. >>> >>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>> >>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>> away completely. >>> >>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>> purposes. >>> >>> Kerri >>> >>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>> >>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>> with whom I?ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>> impaired community. >>> >>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let?s take a quick look at just >>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>> question. >>> >>> ?In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>> materials in accessible formats. >>> ?Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>> ?Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>> commercial solutions like Apple?s iBooks and Amazon?s Kindle provide >>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>> including mobile phones. >>> ?Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>> ?Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these >>> bodies. >>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>> >>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>> treatment?" >>> >>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>> >>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>> >>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>> none who would argue that point. >>> >>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>> media such as music or movies. >>> >>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>> >>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD?s like everyone else? >>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn?t worth as much as we pay >>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>> college? >>> >>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>> >>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I?m >>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don?t we open >>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>> >>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>> just $229 USD? This isn?t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >>> the BookSense. Wouldn?t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>> books for their hard work? >>> >>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>> printed materials handed over for free? >>> >>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>> >>> I know which outcome I?m hoping for. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 22:36:04 -0500 From: Julie McGinnity To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Well said. I agree with those statements. I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and order hard copy books. We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just us. That just doesn't seem right to me. I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: > Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and > many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, > that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal > access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental > problem with this article: > > ": > For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually > impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot > afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of > the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The > unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those > who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of > free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS > up to these unfortunates?" > > Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their > disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. > > Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately > delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many > users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would > not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a > model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. > Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as > the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for > sighted individuals. > > Brice > > On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >> Hey Guys: >> >> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >> to get your thoughts. >> >> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >> the NLS library service should go away. >> >> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >> >> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >> >> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >> >> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >> >> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >> reading. >> >> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >> >> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >> away completely. >> >> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >> purposes. >> >> Kerri >> >> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >> by Josh de Lioncourt >> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >> >> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >> with whom I?ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >> impaired community. >> >> Before exploring that aspect, though, let?s take a quick look at just >> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >> question. >> >> ?In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >> materials in accessible formats. >> ?Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >> ?Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >> commercial solutions like Apple?s iBooks and Amazon?s Kindle provide >> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >> including mobile phones. >> ?Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >> ?Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these >> bodies. >> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >> >> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >> treatment?" >> >> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >> >> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >> >> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >> none who would argue that point. >> >> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >> media such as music or movies. >> >> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >> >> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD?s like everyone else? >> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn?t worth as much as we pay >> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >> college? >> >> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >> >> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I?m >> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don?t we open >> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >> >> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >> just $229 USD? This isn?t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >> the BookSense. Wouldn?t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >> books for their hard work? >> >> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >> printed materials handed over for free? >> >> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >> >> I know which outcome I?m hoping for. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Brice Smith > North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations > Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding Eyes for the Blind "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 22:01:09 -0600 From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Julie, More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I honestly don't know what is. I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please don't take my passion as a personal attack. With respect, Kirt On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: > Well said. I agree with those statements. > > I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do > when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go > to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and > order hard copy books. > > We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not > many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by > the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to > books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. > > I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean > that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books > just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same > choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we > don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be > forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that > is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from > us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to > switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just > us. That just doesn't seem right to me. > > I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I > find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. > > > > On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >> problem with this article: >> >> ": >> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >> up to these unfortunates?" >> >> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >> >> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >> sighted individuals. >> >> Brice >> >> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>> Hey Guys: >>> >>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >>> to get your thoughts. >>> >>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>> the NLS library service should go away. >>> >>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>> >>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>> >>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>> >>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>> >>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>> reading. >>> >>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>> >>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>> away completely. >>> >>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>> purposes. >>> >>> Kerri >>> >>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>> >>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>> with whom I?ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>> impaired community. >>> >>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let?s take a quick look at just >>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>> question. >>> >>> ?In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>> materials in accessible formats. >>> ?Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>> ?Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>> commercial solutions like Apple?s iBooks and Amazon?s Kindle provide >>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>> including mobile phones. >>> ?Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>> ?Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these >>> bodies. >>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>> >>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>> treatment?" >>> >>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>> >>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>> >>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>> none who would argue that point. >>> >>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>> media such as music or movies. >>> >>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>> >>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD?s like everyone else? >>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn?t worth as much as we pay >>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>> college? >>> >>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>> >>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I?m >>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don?t we open >>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>> >>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>> just $229 USD? This isn?t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >>> the BookSense. Wouldn?t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>> books for their hard work? >>> >>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>> printed materials handed over for free? >>> >>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>> >>> I know which outcome I?m hoping for. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Brice Smith >> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera > Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding > Eyes for the Blind > > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 23:18:44 -0500 From: David Andrews To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Press Release: Design Science and ETS receive grant to boost math accessibility Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Subject: Press Release: Design Science and ETS receive grant to >boost math accessibility >Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 11:11:00 -0700 >Hi, > >We are sending this message because you asked us to keep you informed >about our products and technologies. > >We are happy to announce that Design Science, along with Educational >Testing Service, have received a U.S. Department of Education grant to >jointly develop math-to-speech tools. > >This will be of interest to those involved in STEM education, >accessibility and publishing. The press release has been published on >our website and is included below. >http://www.dessci.com/en/company/press/releases/110524.htm > >Best Regards, >--Bruce > >Bruce Virga -- brucev at dessci.com >EVP of Sales & Business Development, COO > >Tel: +1 (562) 432-2920 >Fax: +1 (562) 432-2857 >Mobile: +1 (949) 233-8212 > >Design Science, Inc. -- www.dessci.com >140 Pine Avenue, 4th Floor >Long Beach, California 90802 USA > >~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation Editor ~ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >- >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > >New Math-to-Speech Technologies to Help Blind and Visually Impaired >Students Master Mathematics > >Long Beach, Calif. - May 24, 2011 - Design Science and Educational >Testing Service (ETS) have announced they are working jointly to modify >MathType(TM) and MathPlayer(TM), so that classroom materials, tests and >other documents containing mathematical content may be clearly spoken by >computers. This new math-to-speech technology will provide students who >are blind or have other visual impairments, the tools they need to >learn, practice, and take math and science tests on a more equal footing >with their classroom peers. > >Some of the country's leading subject-matter experts and developers of >assistive technology for students who are blind or visually impaired, >will assist on the project which begins July 1, 2011, and is supported >by a $1.5 million Institute of Education Sciences grant. > >"Existing assistive technology that provides synthetic speech for >electronic text does at best a limited job of making math accessible for >this group of students," explains Lois Frankel, an ETS Assessment >Specialist and the leader of the effort. "The current technology falls >short because it generally does not 'know' how to describe mathematical >expressions, especially in a way that provides access to their nonlinear >structure. > >"ETS and Design Science will work together to enhance MathPlayer, the >tool that voices the math encoded in MathML, so that it sounds more like >what students - particularly those in Algebra I - are used to hearing," >Frankel says. "We also plan to work on a number of customizations to >MathType, including a feature to allow teachers and other users to >select how mathematical expressions are described. For example, they >could select whether the machine says 'four over five' or 'four fifths.' >Another customization we plan to add is keyboard navigation that allows >blind or visually impaired users to go back and replay voiced segments >in mathematically meaningful 'chunks.' Our goal is to provide students >and teachers with a better system for voicing mathematical notation that >includes some truly useful functionality." > >"It has been a long-term Design Science goal to make math accessible, >and our team have been working hard at it for over six years," said Neil >Soiffer, Senior Scientist at Design Science. "It's a great opportunity >to be partnering with an organization the stature and importance of ETS, >to push the state-of-the-art forward." > >Working with Frankel and Soiffer on the effort are ETS Assessment >Specialist Beth Brownstein, Research Scientist Eric Hansen, and Senior >Research Scientist Cara Laitusis. Among the other organizations and >consultants who will take part in the project are: > >- Dewitt & Associates, specializes in accessibility training, learning >systems and support, and will provide advice on the implementation of >MathML accessibility tools and assist in the development of training >modules for students and teachers. >- GW Micro, a leading firm in the adaptive technology industry, will >modify its Window-Eyes screen reader software to work seamlessly with >the tools developed by the project. >- Jim Allan, the accessibility coordinator and webmaster for the Texas >School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. >- Maylene Bird, a teacher of mathematics to visually impaired students >at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. >- Christine Hinton, a Program Development Specialist for the New Jersey >Commission for the Blind and Visually Impaired, will help recruit >student participants from inclusive schools in New Jersey. >- Gaylen Kapperman, a professor of Education who is also blind, with >specialization in research and development projects pertaining to >mathematics instruction and assistive technology used by individuals who >are blind or are visually impaired. >- Abraham Nemeth, the author of The Nemeth Braille Code for Mathematics >and Science Notation, and a blind expert in making mathematics >accessible to blind individuals. >- Susan Osterhaus, a secondary mathematics teacher and statewide >accessibility expert at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually >Impaired. > >"The criteria for success in this project will be three-fold," explains >Marisa Farnum, Vice President of Assessment Development at ETS. "First, >will students using the tailored tools over the status quo be better >able to solve algebra problems at an appropriate level? And, are they >better able to correctly identify the structure of algebra-level math >expressions when using the tools? Second, will math teachers be able to >use the authoring tools developed by this project to quickly and easily >create math materials that are accessible to their students with visual >impairments? And finally, do the teachers and students who participate >as subjects in these development efforts find the tools provided usable >and convenient?" > >About Design Science >Founded in 1986 and headquartered in Long Beach, California, Design >Science develops software used by educators, scientists and publishing >professionals, including MathType, Equation Editor in Microsoft Office, >MathFlow, MathDaisy and MathPlayer, to communicate on the web and in >print. For more information please visit www.dessci.com. > >About ETS >At nonprofit ETS, we advance quality and equity in education for people >worldwide by creating assessments based on rigorous research. ETS serves >individuals, educational institutions and government agencies by >providing customized solutions for teacher certification, English >language learning, and elementary, secondary and post-secondary >education, as well as conducting education research, analysis and policy >studies. Founded in 1947, ETS develops, administers and scores more than >50 million tests annually - including the TOEFL(r) and TOEIC(r) tests, >the GRE(r) tests and The Praxis Series(tm) assessments - in more than >180 countries, at over 9,000 locations worldwide. www.ets.org. > >### > >Design Science Contact: >Bruce Virga >brucev at dessci.com >800-827-0685 >+1 (562) 432-2920 >Design Science, Inc. >140 Pine Avenue, 4th Floor >Long Beach, CA 90802 >USA > >ETS Contact: >Tom Ewing >tewing at ets.org >+1 (609) 683-2803 >Education Testing Service >External Relations >Princeton, NJ 08541-0001 >USA ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 21:20:15 -0700 From: Christina Mitchell To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 I love my braille folks. I first learned it when I was 10 and I'm hooked on it. Before I learned braille I couldn't spell worth a piece of crap. I felt like a retard asking teachers in school to spell certain words. I could spell simple words but those big ones (those you find in SAT books) were my toughest. I read braille everyday now. Since I'm using braille more over audio, my spelling and grammar has gotten better. On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Julie, > More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to > libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream > ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and > probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous > rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library > like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book > we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to > buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile > idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so > we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get > an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. > And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple > devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here > and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be > treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options > (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else > and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I > honestly don't know what is. > I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's > feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please > don't take my passion as a personal attack. > With respect, > Kirt > > On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >> Well said. I agree with those statements. >> >> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >> order hard copy books. >> >> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. >> >> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >> >> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I >> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >> >> >> >> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>> problem with this article: >>> >>> ": >>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >>> up to these unfortunates?" >>> >>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>> >>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>> sighted individuals. >>> >>> Brice >>> >>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>> Hey Guys: >>>> >>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >>>> to get your thoughts. >>>> >>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>> >>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>> >>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>> >>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>> >>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>> >>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>> reading. >>>> >>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>> >>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>>> away completely. >>>> >>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>>> purposes. >>>> >>>> Kerri >>>> >>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>> >>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>>> with whom I?ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>>> impaired community. >>>> >>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let?s take a quick look at just >>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>> question. >>>> >>>> ?In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>> ?Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>> ?Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>> commercial solutions like Apple?s iBooks and Amazon?s Kindle provide >>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>> including mobile phones. >>>> ?Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>> ?Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>> these >>>> bodies. >>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>> >>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>> treatment?" >>>> >>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>> >>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>> >>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>>> none who would argue that point. >>>> >>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>> media such as music or movies. >>>> >>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>> >>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD?s like everyone else? >>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn?t worth as much as we pay >>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>>> college? >>>> >>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>> >>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I?m >>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don?t we open >>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>> >>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>> just $229 USD? This isn?t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >>>> the BookSense. Wouldn?t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>> books for their hard work? >>>> >>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>> >>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>> >>>> I know which outcome I?m hoping for. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >> Eyes for the Blind >> >> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >> life." >> John 3:16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cnaylor073%40gmail.com > ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 23:26:06 -0500 From: Joshua Lester To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Amen! Anything, but, "visually impaired!" Blessings, Joshua On 5/24/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > What's wrong with the word "blind"? > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 24, 2011, at 19:30, Joshua Lester > wrote: > >> I joined, for the reasons, everyone here mentioned. >> I'm actually going to join the group, next year, at convention. >> I do, however, want to say, that the term should be sight impaired. >> I like Chris's motto, "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision." >> That's what I agree with. >> I hate "Visually impaired." >> That is the worst term in the world! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 5/24/11, Justin Young wrote: >>> I joined because I love hearing all the great ideas/suggestions/advice >>> people have to give whenever I am unsure of what to do/where to find >>> something or anything along these lines. I also love helping when I >>> know the answer to someone else who is unsure of something as well. I >>> also love reading all the amazing things that people in their >>> divisions are doing! Finally, I must agree with the point that we >>> have to put an end to the missconceptions that some people still have >>> about us(Blind/Visually Impaired individuals). >>> >>> Justin >>> >>> On 5/24/11, anjelinac26 at gmail.com wrote: >>>> I joined nabs to learn from other blind students as well as hoping to >>>> do >>>> what I can to change societies misconceptions of blindness. The list >>>> has >>>> been a valuable sounding board for questions over the years. >>>> >>>> Anjelina >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On May 24, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hey all, >>>>> I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? >>>>> Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions and >>>>> more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want to be >>>>> involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post >>>>> messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at >>>>> Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you contribute >>>>> to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of your >>>>> state division. >>>>> If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed. >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> Darian >>>>> >>>>> p.s. I am seriously curious :) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Darian Smith >>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>> >>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>> >>>>> ? Robert Byrne >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 22:28:16 -0600 From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of getting them on a silver platter I'm done now, Kirt On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Julie, > More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to > libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream > ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and > probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous > rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library > like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book > we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to > buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile > idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so > we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get > an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. > And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple > devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here > and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be > treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options > (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else > and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I > honestly don't know what is. > I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's > feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please > don't take my passion as a personal attack. > With respect, > Kirt > > On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >> Well said. I agree with those statements. >> >> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >> order hard copy books. >> >> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. >> >> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >> >> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I >> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >> >> >> >> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>> problem with this article: >>> >>> ": >>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >>> up to these unfortunates?" >>> >>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>> >>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>> sighted individuals. >>> >>> Brice >>> >>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>> Hey Guys: >>>> >>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >>>> to get your thoughts. >>>> >>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>> >>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>> >>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>> >>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>> >>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>> >>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>> reading. >>>> >>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>> >>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>>> away completely. >>>> >>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>>> purposes. >>>> >>>> Kerri >>>> >>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>> >>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>>> with whom I?ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>>> impaired community. >>>> >>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let?s take a quick look at just >>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>> question. >>>> >>>> ?In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>> ?Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>> ?Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>> commercial solutions like Apple?s iBooks and Amazon?s Kindle provide >>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>> including mobile phones. >>>> ?Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>> ?Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>> these >>>> bodies. >>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>> >>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>> treatment?" >>>> >>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>> >>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>> >>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>>> none who would argue that point. >>>> >>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>> media such as music or movies. >>>> >>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>> >>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD?s like everyone else? >>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn?t worth as much as we pay >>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>>> college? >>>> >>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>> >>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I?m >>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don?t we open >>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>> >>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>> just $229 USD? This isn?t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >>>> the BookSense. Wouldn?t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>> books for their hard work? >>>> >>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>> >>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>> >>>> I know which outcome I?m hoping for. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >> Eyes for the Blind >> >> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >> life." >> John 3:16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 01:26:00 -0400 From: Ignasi Cambra To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download Message-ID: <9E74A93E-8F17-48E0-968A-79E558D18275 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Wasn't the latest conference call about technology...? On May 24, 2011, at 11:38 PM, Nabslinkaudio.org Web Master wrote: > > > Greetings! > This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest > conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download. > > Title: The Nabs Membership Call For April 2011 > Description: > It's time to visit a topic that some understand well, others sort of get > it, and some either have questions or don't know what it's all about. I'm > speaking about NFB philosophy. Come hear some great ideas for encouraging > people to reach their potential that were offered in this call. Learn how > the NFB helps to raise the bar of expectation regarding what we as blind > people can do. > > > > You can download the show directly at: > http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/April2011Call.mp3 > > Alternatively you can visit the archive page at: > http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations > to hear some of the other calls we've done. > Best regards, > David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee > http://www.nabslinkaudio.org > http://www.nabslink.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 05:14:21 -0400 From: Ignasi Cambra To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii TalkBack does work for several applications, I just find it rather buggy and shaky. Mobile accessibility comes with a suite of applications which of course work well, but on touch screen phones there's the option of using it outside of those applications. That doesn't work nearly as well, but it's nice to have the option. On May 24, 2011, at 6:24 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > Hi IC: > Thanks for your info. > Is Mobile Accessibility better then Talckback at least? > > Also: I thought Code Factory said that Mobile Accessibility didn't work > outside the suite of apps if you were using a touch screen. > > Are you saying that for the most part the Mobile Accessibility suite is > all that can be used at this point by the blind? > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > > On May 24, 2011, at 6:17 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > >> In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this >> point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done. >> I have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, >> none of the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on >> an iPhone. If you need a fully functional phone and you need to >> accomplish things quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not >> ready yet. If you want to try something new and you are willing to give >> up on some usability and convenience, try getting an Android phone and >> see how it goes. If you are planning on using Mobile Accessibility I >> would recommend that you get a touch screen phone. >> >> IC >> On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >>> Hi all: >>> Just wondering, >>> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in >>> the Android platform. >>> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >>> Is TalkBack any good? >>> >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 06:19:35 -0500 From: "Sally Thomas" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Message-ID: <3BC90F43F8BB44E1A1BF82BF76715E12 at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce accessible textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more books are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would be foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first when designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks accessible. Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the hands of blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated process for producing quality braille. Sally Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of getting them on a silver platter I'm done now, Kirt On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Julie, > More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to > libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream > ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and > probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous > rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library > like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book > we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to > buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile > idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so > we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get > an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. > And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple > devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here > and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be > treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options > (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else > and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I > honestly don't know what is. > I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's > feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please > don't take my passion as a personal attack. > With respect, > Kirt > > On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >> Well said. I agree with those statements. >> >> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >> order hard copy books. >> >> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. >> >> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >> >> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I >> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >> >> >> >> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>> problem with this article: >>> >>> ": >>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >>> up to these unfortunates?" >>> >>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>> >>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>> sighted individuals. >>> >>> Brice >>> >>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>> Hey Guys: >>>> >>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >>>> to get your thoughts. >>>> >>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>> >>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>> >>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>> >>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>> >>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>> >>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>> reading. >>>> >>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>> >>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>>> away completely. >>>> >>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>>> purposes. >>>> >>>> Kerri >>>> >>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>> >>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>>> with whom I?ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>>> impaired community. >>>> >>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let?s take a quick look at just >>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>> question. >>>> >>>> ?In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>> ?Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>> ?Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>> commercial solutions like Apple?s iBooks and Amazon?s Kindle provide >>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>> including mobile phones. >>>> ?Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>> ?Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>> these >>>> bodies. >>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>> >>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>> treatment?" >>>> >>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>> >>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>> >>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>>> none who would argue that point. >>>> >>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>> media such as music or movies. >>>> >>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>> >>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD?s like everyone else? >>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn?t worth as much as we pay >>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>>> college? >>>> >>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>> >>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I?m >>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don?t we open >>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>> >>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>> just $229 USD? This isn?t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >>>> the BookSense. Wouldn?t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>> books for their hard work? >>>> >>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>> >>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>> >>>> I know which outcome I?m hoping for. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >> Eyes for the Blind >> >> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >> life." >> John 3:16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 07:41:19 -0400 From: "Rania Ismail" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Message-ID: <4ddceae3.a559e60a.368d.ffffb5bb at mx.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yes that is a good question. I think that what we have now should stay. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Serena Cucco Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:05 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Hey Kerrie, All great points and how about for those of us who simply don't want an iphone? Serena -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kerri Kosten Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 8:42 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Hey Guys: I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted to get your thoughts. The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and the NLS library service should go away. Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for reading. What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went away completely. hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion purposes. Kerri Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion by Josh de Lioncourt A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually impaired community. Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at just a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this question. .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing materials in accessible formats. .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from their users before they are able to gain access to the content provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle provide access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, including mobile phones. .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these bodies. This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential treatment?" Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information they needed online than by visiting a physical library. The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find none who would argue that point. With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment media such as music or movies. While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a future of equal access with our sighted peers. It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone else? Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we pay for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community college? For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod touch can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions ultimately be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining books for their hard work? Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our printed materials handed over for free? We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? I know which outcome I'm hoping for. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serena.c.cucco%40gma il.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmai l.com ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 07:45:44 -0400 From: "Rania Ismail" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? Message-ID: <4ddcebec.a079dc0a.72ca.09f7 at mx.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I joined the list list because I wanted to connect with other blind students. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of anjelinac26 at gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:53 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? I joined nabs to learn from other blind students as well as hoping to do what I can to change societies misconceptions of blindness. The list has been a valuable sounding board for questions over the years. Anjelina Sent from my iPhone On May 24, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Darian Smith wrote: > Hey all, > I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? > Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions and > more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want to be > involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post > messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at > Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you contribute > to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of your > state division. > If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed. > Thanks! > Darian > > p.s. I am seriously curious :) > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail. com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmai l.com ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 07:55:34 -0400 From: "Rania Ismail" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? Message-ID: <4ddcee3a.42abe60a.28d3.ffffb576 at mx.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I like the wird blind! I am more comfortable telling people that I am blind. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 12:26 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? Amen! Anything, but, "visually impaired!" Blessings, Joshua On 5/24/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > What's wrong with the word "blind"? > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 24, 2011, at 19:30, Joshua Lester > wrote: > >> I joined, for the reasons, everyone here mentioned. >> I'm actually going to join the group, next year, at convention. >> I do, however, want to say, that the term should be sight impaired. >> I like Chris's motto, "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision." >> That's what I agree with. >> I hate "Visually impaired." >> That is the worst term in the world! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 5/24/11, Justin Young wrote: >>> I joined because I love hearing all the great ideas/suggestions/advice >>> people have to give whenever I am unsure of what to do/where to find >>> something or anything along these lines. I also love helping when I >>> know the answer to someone else who is unsure of something as well. I >>> also love reading all the amazing things that people in their >>> divisions are doing! Finally, I must agree with the point that we >>> have to put an end to the missconceptions that some people still have >>> about us(Blind/Visually Impaired individuals). >>> >>> Justin >>> >>> On 5/24/11, anjelinac26 at gmail.com wrote: >>>> I joined nabs to learn from other blind students as well as hoping to do >>>> what I can to change societies misconceptions of blindness. The list has >>>> been a valuable sounding board for questions over the years. >>>> >>>> Anjelina >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On May 24, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hey all, >>>>> I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? >>>>> Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions and >>>>> more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want to be >>>>> involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post >>>>> messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at >>>>> Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you contribute >>>>> to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of your >>>>> state division. >>>>> If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed. >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> Darian >>>>> >>>>> p.s. I am seriously curious :) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Darian Smith >>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>>> >>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>>> >>>>> - Robert Byrne >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail. com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40studen ts.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40studen ts.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmai l.com ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 08:47:09 -0400 From: Ignasi Cambra To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility Message-ID: <6DBB8369-33A7-415A-818D-1DF45D7F04AD at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jorge, I think I must have been quite sleepy this morning. The touch screen is usable within the suite of apps in Mobile Accessibility, but not outside. Sorry about the confusion! On the web browser, for example, the experience with the touch screen is pretty nice. On May 24, 2011, at 6:24 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > Hi IC: > Thanks for your info. > Is Mobile Accessibility better then Talckback at least? > > Also: I thought Code Factory said that Mobile Accessibility didn't work > outside the suite of apps if you were using a touch screen. > > Are you saying that for the most part the Mobile Accessibility suite is > all that can be used at this point by the blind? > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > > On May 24, 2011, at 6:17 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > >> In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this >> point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done. >> I have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, >> none of the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on >> an iPhone. If you need a fully functional phone and you need to >> accomplish things quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not >> ready yet. If you want to try something new and you are willing to give >> up on some usability and convenience, try getting an Android phone and >> see how it goes. If you are planning on using Mobile Accessibility I >> would recommend that you get a touch screen phone. >> >> IC >> On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >>> Hi all: >>> Just wondering, >>> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in >>> the Android platform. >>> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >>> Is TalkBack any good? >>> >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 08:52:39 -0500 From: "Steve Jacobson" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Kirt, The points you raise are worth thinking about. Part of what I value about the NFB is that we try to ask whether we need a given service. I would raise these cautions, though. First, sighted people can get audio books from public libraries. Many have them available to be borrowed on CD and there are even time-limited licensed downloads. The role of libraries in society's future is probably going to change, but I hope they don't go away completely, for us or for the sighted. Our ability to save downloads is different, though, but I wonder what the percentage of people is who truly save them to read them again. There are people who do, but there are certainly sighted people who return to the library to get the same book or to refer to the same encyclopedias. Second, while I would generally agree about technology, I would not count your chickens before they hatch. Most of our technology is just not as seamless as is using vision. There is likely always going to be blind people who have difficulty mastering the technology just as is the case for sighted people. For sighted people, though, there are still nontechnological options. Third, our technology is expensive, especially braille displays. Our unemployment rate is way higher than that of mainstream society so many of us are not in a position to purchase the technology that is needed. There are a number of ways this could change in our favor, but we're not there yet. Finally, while there are laws that encourage accessibility, there is nothing absolute in law. Some laws encourage accessibility but they don't guarantee it. The two biggest players in computer technology now, Microsoft and Apple, are putting forth a pretty good effort at the moment, but we don't know what the stage will look like in five years. Ten years ago, I would have assumed that Microsoft Word would be without accessibility problems, but in some ways it is harder to use now than it was then. In my mind, if we were to endorse the reduction of the role of NLS or BookShare, we would need an iron-clad legal requirement that texts and the means to read them be accessible, and we would need funding for the devices that makes texts accessible for those who can't afford such technology and it would need to be independent of getting a job. Specifically, this kind of help would have to be made for seniors and for persons for whom employment is not likely. Most of the help we get with technology now is as part of an employment plan. While I don't disagree with your assertion that if we have the ability to read mainstream materials that we need to consider our need for special access, I think that it would be incorrect to assume what technology is going to do for us until we see it actually doing it and we have some means of guaranteeing that it will continue doing it. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Tue, 24 May 2011 22:28:16 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), > Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >getting them on a silver platter > I'm done now, >Kirt >On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Julie, >> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >> honestly don't know what is. >> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >> With respect, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>> >>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>> order hard copy books. >>> >>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. >>> >>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>> >>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I >>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>> problem with this article: >>>> >>>> ": >>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>> >>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>> >>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>> sighted individuals. >>>> >>>> Brice >>>> >>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>> >>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>> >>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>> >>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>> >>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>> reading. >>>>> >>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>> >>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>>>> away completely. >>>>> >>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>>>> purposes. >>>>> >>>>> Kerri >>>>> >>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>> >>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>>>> with whom Ive been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>>>> impaired community. >>>>> >>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, lets take a quick look at just >>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>> question. >>>>> >>>>> "In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>> "Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>> "Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>> commercial solutions like Apples iBooks and Amazons Kindle provide >>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>> "Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>> "Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>> these >>>>> bodies. >>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>> >>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>> treatment?" >>>>> >>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>> >>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>> >>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>> >>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>> >>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>> >>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVDs like everyone else? >>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isnt worth as much as we pay >>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>>>> college? >>>>> >>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>> >>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and Im >>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why dont we open >>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>> >>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>> just $229 USD? This isnt even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >>>>> the BookSense. Wouldnt money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>> >>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>> >>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>> >>>>> I know which outcome Im hoping for. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Brice Smith >>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Julie McG >>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>> Eyes for the Blind >>> >>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>> life." >>> John 3:16 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 10:08:27 -0400 From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download Message-ID: <203A2F9932BA49A9BE398FDEFEA50856 at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Ic, It was but remember here was a message stating that call was not recorded. There fore April's call is the latest call that is digitized. -----Original Message----- From: Ignasi Cambra Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 1:26 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download Wasn't the latest conference call about technology...? On May 24, 2011, at 11:38 PM, Nabslinkaudio.org Web Master wrote: > > > Greetings! > This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest > conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download. > > Title: The Nabs Membership Call For April 2011 > Description: > It's time to visit a topic that some understand well, others sort of get > it, and some either have questions or don't know what it's all about. I'm > speaking about NFB philosophy. Come hear some great ideas for encouraging > people to reach their potential that were offered in this call. Learn how > the NFB helps to raise the bar of expectation regarding what we as blind > people can do. > > > > You can download the show directly at: > http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/April2011Call.mp3 > > Alternatively you can visit the archive page at: > http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations > to hear some of the other calls we've done. > Best regards, > David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee > http://www.nabslinkaudio.org > http://www.nabslink.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 12:25:24 -0400 From: David Dunphy To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Let me just clarify.. First off, sorry the links for the training centers appeared that way in email. I have a feeling unless your email is set to display html it'll be weird like that. Yes, APril is the most recent call sadly. Ironic that technology would fail in a technology conference. But as I also said, I'll be working with the membership committee to get the audio sounding better, get the recordings to not fail like that as has happened at times, and most importantly, to make it so these calls can be heard live as they're happening as it was when this project first started. I can tell you now that the meeting from National Convention will be on the nabslinkaudio.org site as one large download, unless people want it broken up, but that will be much harder to set up with our archival system as it is now. >From David ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 55, Issue 43 ************************************** YB RESOURCEFUL CONSULTING TALENTS(YBRCT) - A Resourceful Consulting Entrepreneurial "Tool Box" www.YBResourceful.com +1(508) 736-4052 independent small consulting entrepreneurial business - here For your overall life enrichment... Private customized Piano and Hand-drum lessons; and live parties/gatherings and fictional animals sounds entertainment; Public Speaking, Presentation, Demonstrations and Pannalist for all; Creative Projects Support-researching, Small business entrepreneurship coaching, email accounts hosting, and more; Private Customized French, learning, and Small Documents Translation; Non-sighted People Backup Support for families and schools, and individuals; learning Braille, etc. Weekly free tips and much more at: www.YBResourceful.com +1(508) 736-4052 YB RESOURCEFUL CONSULTING TALENTS Admirals Hill Office Suites 285 Commandants Way Chelsea MA 02150 From liziswhatis at hotmail.com Wed May 25 17:00:01 2011 From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 12:00:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What are some things related to usability and convenience that you give up in using an Android? I am thinking of possibly taking the plunge and getting an Android, having used an iPhone prior. I have had very little experience using Android, and will say that I was frustrated in doing so. If I have to give up a lot and find that my use of the phone and its features really is limited, I may not go for it. I really wish Google would make accessibility a priority. I would love choice in which mobile platform I can use. I'm possibly also spoiled in that I don't think I should have to pay extra for accessibility, (following Apple's example), especially if the extra that I would pay only allows me access to a specific suite of applications deemed accessible by one developer/company and I still cannot have full access to the phone. Lastly, I am wondering at this point if Android is not more accessible to the low vision user than it is to one who is totally blind? Just my thoughts... Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ignasi Cambra Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 5:17 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done. I have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, none of the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on an iPhone. If you need a fully functional phone and you need to accomplish things quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not ready yet. If you want to try something new and you are willing to give up on some usability and convenience, try getting an Android phone and see how it goes. If you are planning on using Mobile Accessibility I would recommend that you get a touch screen phone. IC On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > Hi all: > Just wondering, > my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in the Android platform. > What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? > Is TalkBack any good? > > > Thank you. > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai l.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Wed May 25 17:01:34 2011 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 12:01:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download References: <9E74A93E-8F17-48E0-968A-79E558D18275@gmail.com><203A2F9932BA49A9BE398FDEFEA50856@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <000501cc1afd$679974e0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello David and everyone, I'll cast my vote for one large download on all call recordings. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Dunphy" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:25 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download Let me just clarify.. First off, sorry the links for the training centers appeared that way in email. I have a feeling unless your email is set to display html it'll be weird like that. Yes, APril is the most recent call sadly. Ironic that technology would fail in a technology conference. But as I also said, I'll be working with the membership committee to get the audio sounding better, get the recordings to not fail like that as has happened at times, and most importantly, to make it so these calls can be heard live as they're happening as it was when this project first started. I can tell you now that the meeting from National Convention will be on the nabslinkaudio.org site as one large download, unless people want it broken up, but that will be much harder to set up with our archival system as it is now. >From David _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Wed May 25 17:23:25 2011 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 12:23:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download References: <9E74A93E-8F17-48E0-968A-79E558D18275@gmail.com><203A2F9932BA49A9BE398FDEFEA50856@OwnerPC> <8D09ECCCD198497397B703E80BF2F0D6@tinad85eb5cc31> Message-ID: <003101cc1b00$74c884f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Tina and everyone, We attempted to record the 2010 NABS Meeting in Dallas but were unable to do so due to problems with the P.A. System in that particular room. I believe plans are in place to record this year's NABS Annual Meeting. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tina Hansen" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download Excellent. Also, for some reason, there is no audio from the seminar at Dallas or the division's midwinter conference at the Washington Seminar. Are there any plans to offer audio from the Dallas meeting or any other seminar in the near future on a regular basis? That's something that's bugged me for years. Thanks. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Wed May 25 17:34:14 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 13:34:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Use of the phone and its features really is limited in my opinion. Many things look very promising, and there are a few apps that are designed for the blind and work well with Talkback. There are still many things which don't seem to work for me...random buttons which don't get activated when the screen reader is on, things that are not read to you etc. If you are expecting to be able to check your email and browse the internet just like on an iPhone, I think you will be disappointed. I personally use my iPhone all the time, but have the Droid just to do experiments. It's relatively easy to develop applications for Android and I have fun with it. I could use it as my primary phone if I wanted to, but I still find the iPhone a lot better as a blind user. It would be interesting to hear other opinions though. Does anyone on this list use an Android phone?? On May 25, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Liz Bottner wrote: > What are some things related to usability and convenience that you give up > in using an Android? I am thinking of possibly taking the plunge and getting > an Android, having used an iPhone prior. I have had very little experience > using Android, and will say that I was frustrated in doing so. If I have to > give up a lot and find that my use of the phone and its features really is > limited, I may not go for it. I really wish Google would make accessibility > a priority. I would love choice in which mobile platform I can use. I'm > possibly also spoiled in that I don't think I should have to pay extra for > accessibility, (following Apple's example), especially if the extra that I > would pay only allows me access to a specific suite of applications deemed > accessible by one developer/company and I still cannot have full access to > the phone. Lastly, I am wondering at this point if Android is not more > accessible to the low vision user than it is to one who is totally blind? > > Just my thoughts... > > Liz Bottner > Guiding Eyes Graduate Council > GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 > e-mail: > liziswhatis at hotmail.com > Visit my LiveJournal: > http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com > Follow me on Twitter: > http://twitter.com/lizbot > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Ignasi Cambra > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 5:17 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility > > In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this > point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done. I > have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, none of > the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on an iPhone. > If you need a fully functional phone and you need to accomplish things > quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not ready yet. If you want > to try something new and you are willing to give up on some usability and > convenience, try getting an Android phone and see how it goes. If you are > planning on using Mobile Accessibility I would recommend that you get a > touch screen phone. > > IC > On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> Hi all: >> Just wondering, >> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in > the Android platform. >> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >> Is TalkBack any good? >> >> >> Thank you. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 25 17:42:15 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: <3BC90F43F8BB44E1A1BF82BF76715E12@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Steve and Mike, You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast towards access to mainstream books in braille. Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very least, better manage our precious SSI. Just my thoughts, Kirt On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: > TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with BookShare to > make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of BKS > books has improved over the years. > > Liz Bottner > Guiding Eyes Graduate Council > GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 > e-mail: > liziswhatis at hotmail.com > Visit my LiveJournal: > http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com > Follow me on Twitter: > http://twitter.com/lizbot > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Sally Thomas > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce accessible > textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to > translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more books > are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would be > foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first when > designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible > textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks > accessible. > > Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the hands of > blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated > process for producing quality braille. > > Sally Thomas > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirt Manwaring" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > > One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), > Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point > where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D > audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too > long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker > or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it > just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that > trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long > until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to > read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as > using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), > I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our > hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few > posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get > ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are > probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't > as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I > download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like > every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of > getting them on a silver platter > I'm done now, > Kirt > > On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Julie, >> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >> honestly don't know what is. >> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >> With respect, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>> >>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>> order hard copy books. >>> >>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. >>> >>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>> >>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I >>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>> problem with this article: >>>> >>>> ": >>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>> >>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>> >>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>> sighted individuals. >>>> >>>> Brice >>>> >>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>> >>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>> >>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>> >>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>> >>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>> reading. >>>>> >>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>> >>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>>>> away completely. >>>>> >>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>>>> purposes. >>>>> >>>>> Kerri >>>>> >>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>> >>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>>>> impaired community. >>>>> >>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at just >>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>> question. >>>>> >>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle provide >>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>> these >>>>> bodies. >>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>> >>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>> treatment?" >>>>> >>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>> >>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>> >>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>> >>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>> >>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>> >>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone else? >>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we pay >>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>>>> college? >>>>> >>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>> >>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm >>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>> >>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>> >>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>> >>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>> >>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma > il.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Brice Smith >>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co > m >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Julie McG >>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>> Eyes for the Blind >>> >>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>> life." >>> John 3:16 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma > il.com >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 25 17:46:23 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 11:46:23 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ignasi, I use an old android phone (Google g1 with android 1.6 OS) with talkback. It aint pretty, but it does what I need a phone to do. Once I upgrade, due to happen in a few months, I'll consider paying the steap price for mobile accessibility...maybe ask for it as a good Birthday present or something because, dang it, I don't want to pay 100 dollars for limited access! Warmly, Kirt On 5/25/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > Use of the phone and its features really is limited in my opinion. Many > things look very promising, and there are a few apps that are designed for > the blind and work well with Talkback. There are still many things which > don't seem to work for me...random buttons which don't get activated when > the screen reader is on, things that are not read to you etc. If you are > expecting to be able to check your email and browse the internet just like > on an iPhone, I think you will be disappointed. > I personally use my iPhone all the time, but have the Droid just to do > experiments. It's relatively easy to develop applications for Android and I > have fun with it. I could use it as my primary phone if I wanted to, but I > still find the iPhone a lot better as a blind user. > It would be interesting to hear other opinions though. Does anyone on this > list use an Android phone?? > On May 25, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Liz Bottner wrote: > >> What are some things related to usability and convenience that you give up >> in using an Android? I am thinking of possibly taking the plunge and >> getting >> an Android, having used an iPhone prior. I have had very little experience >> using Android, and will say that I was frustrated in doing so. If I have >> to >> give up a lot and find that my use of the phone and its features really is >> limited, I may not go for it. I really wish Google would make >> accessibility >> a priority. I would love choice in which mobile platform I can use. I'm >> possibly also spoiled in that I don't think I should have to pay extra for >> accessibility, (following Apple's example), especially if the extra that I >> would pay only allows me access to a specific suite of applications deemed >> accessible by one developer/company and I still cannot have full access to >> the phone. Lastly, I am wondering at this point if Android is not more >> accessible to the low vision user than it is to one who is totally blind? >> >> Just my thoughts... >> >> Liz Bottner >> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >> e-mail: >> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >> Visit my LiveJournal: >> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >> Follow me on Twitter: >> http://twitter.com/lizbot >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Ignasi Cambra >> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 5:17 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility >> >> In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this >> point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done. >> I >> have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, none >> of >> the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on an >> iPhone. >> If you need a fully functional phone and you need to accomplish things >> quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not ready yet. If you want >> to try something new and you are willing to give up on some usability and >> convenience, try getting an Android phone and see how it goes. If you are >> planning on using Mobile Accessibility I would recommend that you get a >> touch screen phone. >> >> IC >> On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >>> Hi all: >>> Just wondering, >>> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in >> the Android platform. >>> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >>> Is TalkBack any good? >>> >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >> l.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From trillian551 at gmail.com Wed May 25 17:49:59 2011 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 13:49:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? In-Reply-To: <62619017D846451FA669D03C02499857@Cptr233> References: <62619017D846451FA669D03C02499857@Cptr233> Message-ID: Hi All, At the risk of repeating what everyone else said, and at the even bigger risk of sounding like I'm giving a bit of a beauty pageant speech, I'll try to answer this question. I think that for many of us we can draw clear distinctions between our life before the NFB and or meeting a successful blind person, and our lives after. I can clearly remember the first blind mentors I met and how impressed I was to see that they had lives and families and that what I wanted out of life was actually possible and not completely unheard of. and so, joining a student division, just seemed like the logical and beneficial thing to do. to be able to connect with others who are not only blind but who are going through many of the same experiences as myself just helps. Just being able to post on this list knowing that someone had problems with SPSS before me and having NABS as a resource makes life a lot easier. After all why reinvent the wheel? But more than that, I truly value the NFB and the work this organization does. Whether I agree or disagree with everything the NFB does sometimes seems beside the point for me. Up until the age of 7 I was not allowed to attend school because I was blind. And I truly belief that if there's any place to be blind, it is in the United states. Although blindness can still be pretty sucky, because of the various reasons we all know, at the end of the day we do have it a lot better than in many other places, where going to school, much less getting a job is not even a possibility. Those opportunities we have are to a great extent thanks to the work of the Federation in the past 70 years. while it is true that Braille literacy is abismal, that %70 of blind people are unemployed, that we cannot independently use Kiosks, etc. the beautiful thing that we take for granted, is that we can raise hell about it and make a change. And that is because although blind people may not be the majority, the few of us that there are can and do come together to fight for what we want, and as cliched as it may sound, that is powerful. Thus, NABS members are the future leaders of the Federation, it is up to us to make the lives of future generations filled with more opportunities for equality. And so it seems to be that being an active member of this organization is the only way that I can bring my views, experiences and ideas into play so that I can help shape our society, if even in a small way, to truly view blindness as a characteristic, which although may be slightly more significant than curly hair, does not define me and my abilities as an individual. though in some ways I think my curly hair has affected my life more than my blindness. lol. Mary F On 5/25/11, Marsha Drenth wrote: > I am a part of the students division not only because I'm a student, but > because of the wealth of information that is provided on this list and in > the division. > > Granted, I am not nearly as young as some of you, which some regards I feel > a bit on the outside. This is the most likely the best place for the stage > of life I'm in right now. > > Marsha > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Darian Smith > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:31 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? > > Hey all, > I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? > Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions and > more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want to be > involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post > messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at > Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you contribute > to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of your > state division. > If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed. > Thanks! > Darian > > p.s. I am seriously curious :) > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai > l.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 6149 (20110524) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 6151 (20110525) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 6151 (20110525) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory University 2012 P.O. Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. 30322 Phone: 732-857-7004 "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it." Terry Pratchett From seacknit at gmail.com Wed May 25 18:04:58 2011 From: seacknit at gmail.com (Sally Thomas) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 13:04:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: <67C934E6-7EED-461A-AD4E-107941F1C119@panix.com> References: <3BC90F43F8BB44E1A1BF82BF76715E12@OwnerPC> <67C934E6-7EED-461A-AD4E-107941F1C119@panix.com> Message-ID: <110347776FE542ED80AB70EB06E46A10@OwnerPC> I was referring specifically to textbook NIMAC files. Sally Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:33 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > Bookshare is quality Braille? > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 25, 2011, at 4:19, "Sally Thomas" wrote: > >> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >> accessible textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process >> need to translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and >> more books are easily accessible with the new technology available, but >> it would be foolish to assume that publishers are going to put >> accessibility first when designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the >> repository of accessible textbook files. Textbook companies are required >> to make K-12 textbooks accessible. >> >> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the hands >> of blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >> process for producing quality braille. >> >> Sally Thomas >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" >> >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >> >> >> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >> getting them on a silver platter >> I'm done now, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Julie, >>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>> honestly don't know what is. >>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>> With respect, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>> >>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>>> order hard copy books. >>>> >>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. >>>> >>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>> >>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I >>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>>> problem with this article: >>>>> >>>>> ": >>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>> >>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>> >>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>> >>>>> Brice >>>>> >>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>> >>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>> wanted >>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>> >>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>> Apple's >>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>> >>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>> >>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>> (someone >>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books >>>>>> in >>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>> >>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>>> reading. >>>>>> >>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>>>>> away completely. >>>>>> >>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>>>>> purposes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kerri >>>>>> >>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>> >>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>>>>> with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>> >>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just >>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>> question. >>>>>> >>>>>> •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>> •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>> •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide >>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>> •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>> •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>>> these >>>>>> bodies. >>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>> platform, >>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept >>>>>> in >>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>> >>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>> however. >>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>> >>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>> otherwise >>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities >>>>>> in >>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>> >>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>> >>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on >>>>>> the >>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>> >>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. >>>>>> Ask >>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>> >>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>> those >>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>> >>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>> especially >>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>> community, >>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone >>>>>> else? >>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we >>>>>> pay >>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>>>>> college? >>>>>> >>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>> >>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I’m >>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open >>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>> >>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>> available >>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>> music. >>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>> tens >>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>> touch >>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>> storage, >>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>> from >>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>> ultimately >>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>> >>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>> community >>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>> Amazon >>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>> >>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>> equal >>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>> >>>>>> I know which outcome I’m hoping for. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Brice Smith >>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Julie McG >>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>> >>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>> life." >>>> John 3:16 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 25 18:16:14 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 12:16:14 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: <110347776FE542ED80AB70EB06E46A10@OwnerPC> References: <3BC90F43F8BB44E1A1BF82BF76715E12@OwnerPC> <67C934E6-7EED-461A-AD4E-107941F1C119@panix.com> <110347776FE542ED80AB70EB06E46A10@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Sally, This has been my experience with NIMAC-it's probably not representative of the blind community, but here goes. Throughout Jr. High and High School, bookshare was a great place for me to get books for pleasure reading and a terrible place to get textbooks. The ones I needed were never there, notwithstanding any laws about NIMAC. When I got to college, the situation was just the same-I've so far used about 14 textbooks, only 1 was even on bookshare and the only way I could read it (because of some corrupted files or something) was to extract the HTML version from the Daisy zip folder and it was cumbersome as all heck. Thank God for good offices at my school's Accessibility center who would hand scan books I bought and send me rtf or .doc or kurzweil files-they helped me far more with textbooks in one year than bookshare has in my whole life. I'm not trying to diss bookshare-I love it, I think it's been a great idea, I think our need for it is disappearing fast and it'll soon go down in the annals of history as a great system that outlived its usefulness, even as print libraries and the NLS flourish. On a sidenote, was my experience with NIMAC pretty normal, or was I just terribly unlucky? All the best, Kirt On 5/25/11, Sally Thomas wrote: > I was referring specifically to textbook NIMAC files. > > Sally Thomas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:33 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > >> Bookshare is quality Braille? >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 25, 2011, at 4:19, "Sally Thomas" wrote: >> >>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>> accessible textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process >>> need to translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and >>> more books are easily accessible with the new technology available, but >>> it would be foolish to assume that publishers are going to put >>> accessibility first when designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the >>> repository of accessible textbook files. Textbook companies are required >>> >>> to make K-12 textbooks accessible. >>> >>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the hands >>> of blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >>> process for producing quality braille. >>> >>> Sally Thomas >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >>> >>> >>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>> getting them on a silver platter >>> I'm done now, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Julie, >>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>> With respect, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>> >>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>> >>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. >>>>> >>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>> >>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I >>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>> >>>>>> ": >>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brice >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>>>>>> with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just >>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>>> question. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>> •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>> •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide >>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>> •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>> •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>>>> these >>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>> however. >>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. >>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>> those >>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>> especially >>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>> community, >>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone >>>>>>> else? >>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we >>>>>>> pay >>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>>>>>> college? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and >>>>>>> I’m >>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open >>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>> available >>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>> music. >>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>>> tens >>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>> touch >>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>> community >>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>> equal >>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know which outcome I’m hoping for. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Julie McG >>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>> >>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>> life." >>>>> John 3:16 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed May 25 18:37:12 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 14:37:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: <110347776FE542ED80AB70EB06E46A10@OwnerPC> References: <3BC90F43F8BB44E1A1BF82BF76715E12@OwnerPC><67C934E6-7EED-461A-AD4E-107941F1C119@panix.com> <110347776FE542ED80AB70EB06E46A10@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <7E63A38FB17D4D01B7A10D00248D24AA@OwnerPC> I've heard from many individuals that bookshare is a great source for pleasure books, but a terrible place to get textbooks. That is why we need electronic text from publishers, and we still will need RFB or Learning Ally. I think the repository of books,, NIMAC is only for k-12 students. I certainly see a place for NLS because it gives the access we would have from a public library. Bookshare might decline though in popularity; time will tell. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Sally Thomas Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 2:04 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare I was referring specifically to textbook NIMAC files. Sally Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:33 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > Bookshare is quality Braille? > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 25, 2011, at 4:19, "Sally Thomas" wrote: > >> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >> accessible textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process >> need to translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and >> more books are easily accessible with the new technology available, but >> it would be foolish to assume that publishers are going to put >> accessibility first when designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the >> repository of accessible textbook files. Textbook companies are required >> to make K-12 textbooks accessible. >> >> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the hands >> of blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >> process for producing quality braille. >> >> Sally Thomas >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" >> >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >> >> >> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >> getting them on a silver platter >> I'm done now, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Julie, >>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>> honestly don't know what is. >>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>> With respect, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>> >>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>>> order hard copy books. >>>> >>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. >>>> >>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>> >>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I >>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>>> problem with this article: >>>>> >>>>> ": >>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>> >>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>> >>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>> >>>>> Brice >>>>> >>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>> >>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>> wanted >>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>> >>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>> Apple's >>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>> >>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>> >>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>> (someone >>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books >>>>>> in >>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>> >>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>>> reading. >>>>>> >>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>>>>> away completely. >>>>>> >>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>>>>> purposes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kerri >>>>>> >>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>> >>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>>>>> with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>> >>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just >>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>> question. >>>>>> >>>>>> •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>> •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>> •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide >>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>> •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>> •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>>> these >>>>>> bodies. >>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>> platform, >>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept >>>>>> in >>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>> >>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>> however. >>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>> >>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>> otherwise >>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities >>>>>> in >>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>> >>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>> >>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on >>>>>> the >>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>> >>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. >>>>>> Ask >>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>> >>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>> those >>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>> >>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>> especially >>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>> community, >>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone >>>>>> else? >>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we >>>>>> pay >>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>>>>> college? >>>>>> >>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>> >>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I’m >>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open >>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>> >>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>> available >>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>> music. >>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>> tens >>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>> touch >>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>> storage, >>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>> from >>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>> ultimately >>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>> >>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>> community >>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>> Amazon >>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>> >>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>> equal >>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>> >>>>>> I know which outcome I’m hoping for. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Brice Smith >>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Julie McG >>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>> >>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>> life." >>>> John 3:16 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From steve.jacobson at visi.com Wed May 25 18:44:48 2011 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 13:44:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kirt, As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some things happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a novel, for example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need access to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, so I am not suggesting that this isn't important. There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may not be that important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will concentrate on making the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final product by merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is already available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to create accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking the same text and making it available in another format. My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you name are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what sort of availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The industry is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some new way of displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard to make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some hope, but rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need on what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually. In 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make their Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor yesterday released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I would never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's in 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology goes. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >Steve and Mike, > You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit >silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >towards access to mainstream books in braille. > Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or >(I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the >same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >least, better manage our precious SSI. > Just my thoughts, >Kirt >On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with BookShare to >> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of BKS >> books has improved over the years. >> >> Liz Bottner >> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >> e-mail: >> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >> Visit my LiveJournal: >> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >> Follow me on Twitter: >> http://twitter.com/lizbot >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Sally Thomas >> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >> >> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce accessible >> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more books >> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would be >> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first when >> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible >> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks >> accessible. >> >> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the hands of >> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >> process for producing quality braille. >> >> Sally Thomas >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >> >> >> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >> getting them on a silver platter >> I'm done now, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Julie, >>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>> honestly don't know what is. >>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>> With respect, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>> >>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>>> order hard copy books. >>>> >>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. >>>> >>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>> >>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I >>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>>> problem with this article: >>>>> >>>>> ": >>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>> >>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>> >>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>> >>>>> Brice >>>>> >>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>> >>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>> >>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>> >>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>> >>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>> >>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>>> reading. >>>>>> >>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>>>>> away completely. >>>>>> >>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>>>>> purposes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kerri >>>>>> >>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>> >>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>> >>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at just >>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>> question. >>>>>> >>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle provide >>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>>> these >>>>>> bodies. >>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>> >>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>> >>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>> >>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>> >>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>> >>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>> >>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>> >>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone else? >>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we pay >>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>>>>> college? >>>>>> >>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>> >>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm >>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>> >>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>> >>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>> >>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>> >>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >> il.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Brice Smith >>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >> m >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Julie McG >>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>> >>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>> life." >>>> John 3:16 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >> il.com >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >> l.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Wed May 25 19:11:16 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:11:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4ddd5458.8d8de50a.35dc.170a@mx.google.com> Well said Mary! Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mary Fernandez Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 1:50 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? Hi All, At the risk of repeating what everyone else said, and at the even bigger risk of sounding like I'm giving a bit of a beauty pageant speech, I'll try to answer this question. I think that for many of us we can draw clear distinctions between our life before the NFB and or meeting a successful blind person, and our lives after. I can clearly remember the first blind mentors I met and how impressed I was to see that they had lives and families and that what I wanted out of life was actually possible and not completely unheard of. and so, joining a student division, just seemed like the logical and beneficial thing to do. to be able to connect with others who are not only blind but who are going through many of the same experiences as myself just helps. Just being able to post on this list knowing that someone had problems with SPSS before me and having NABS as a resource makes life a lot easier. After all why reinvent the wheel? But more than that, I truly value the NFB and the work this organization does. Whether I agree or disagree with everything the NFB does sometimes seems beside the point for me. Up until the age of 7 I was not allowed to attend school because I was blind. And I truly belief that if there's any place to be blind, it is in the United states. Although blindness can still be pretty sucky, because of the various reasons we all know, at the end of the day we do have it a lot better than in many other places, where going to school, much less getting a job is not even a possibility. Those opportunities we have are to a great extent thanks to the work of the Federation in the past 70 years. while it is true that Braille literacy is abismal, that %70 of blind people are unemployed, that we cannot independently use Kiosks, etc. the beautiful thing that we take for granted, is that we can raise hell about it and make a change. And that is because although blind people may not be the majority, the few of us that there are can and do come together to fight for what we want, and as cliched as it may sound, that is powerful. Thus, NABS members are the future leaders of the Federation, it is up to us to make the lives of future generations filled with more opportunities for equality. And so it seems to be that being an active member of this organization is the only way that I can bring my views, experiences and ideas into play so that I can help shape our society, if even in a small way, to truly view blindness as a characteristic, which although may be slightly more significant than curly hair, does not define me and my abilities as an individual. though in some ways I think my curly hair has affected my life more than my blindness. lol. Mary F On 5/25/11, Marsha Drenth wrote: > I am a part of the students division not only because I'm a student, but > because of the wealth of information that is provided on this list and in > the division. > > Granted, I am not nearly as young as some of you, which some regards I feel > a bit on the outside. This is the most likely the best place for the stage > of life I'm in right now. > > Marsha > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Darian Smith > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:31 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? > > Hey all, > I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? > Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions and > more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want to be > involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post > messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at > Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you contribute > to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of your > state division. > If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed. > Thanks! > Darian > > p.s. I am seriously curious :) > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai > l.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 6149 (20110524) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 6151 (20110525) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 6151 (20110525) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail. com > -- Mary Fernandez President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory University 2012 P.O. Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. 30322 Phone: 732-857-7004 "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it." Terry Pratchett _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmai l.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 25 19:18:17 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 13:18:17 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve, Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with literary braille. I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. Warmly, Kirt On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: > Kirt, > > As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some things > happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a > novel, for > example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need access > to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, so I > am > not suggesting that this isn't important. > > There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math > notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may not > be that > important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. > Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will > concentrate on making > the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final product by > merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is > already > available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to create > accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking the > same text > and making it available in another format. > > My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you name > are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what sort of > availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The industry > is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some new way > of > displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard to > make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some hope, > but > rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need on > what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually. In > 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make their > Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor yesterday > released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I would > never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's in > 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology goes. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >>Steve and Mike, >> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit >>silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>towards access to mainstream books in braille. >> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or >>(I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the >>same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>least, better manage our precious SSI. >> Just my thoughts, >>Kirt > >>On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with BookShare >>> to >>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of BKS >>> books has improved over the years. >>> >>> Liz Bottner >>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>> e-mail: >>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>> Follow me on Twitter: >>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Sally Thomas >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >>> >>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>> accessible >>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more >>> books >>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would be >>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first >>> when >>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible >>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks >>> accessible. >>> >>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the hands >>> of >>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >>> process for producing quality braille. >>> >>> Sally Thomas >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >>> >>> >>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>> getting them on a silver platter >>> I'm done now, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Julie, >>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>> With respect, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>> >>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>> >>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. >>>>> >>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>> >>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I >>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>> >>>>>> ": >>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brice >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at just >>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>>> question. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle provide >>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>>>> these >>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>> however. >>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. >>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>> those >>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>> especially >>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>> community, >>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>> else? >>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we >>>>>>> pay >>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>>>>>> college? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and >>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>> available >>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>> music. >>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>>> tens >>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>> touch >>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>> community >>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>> equal >>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>> il.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>> m >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Julie McG >>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>> >>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>> life." >>>>> John 3:16 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>> il.com >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 25 19:24:50 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 13:24:50 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve, One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, at least with books that aren't textbooks. Warmly, Kirt On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Steve, > Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too > optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math > notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? > I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, > will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation > making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with > the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I > think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even > comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll > probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of > what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or > science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with > literary braille. > I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is > owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about > that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course > (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it > makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille > access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't > disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so > far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> Kirt, >> >> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some things >> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a >> novel, for >> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >> access >> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, so >> I >> am >> not suggesting that this isn't important. >> >> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may >> not >> be that >> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. >> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >> concentrate on making >> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final product >> by >> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is >> already >> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >> create >> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking the >> same text >> and making it available in another format. >> >> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you >> name >> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what sort >> of >> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >> industry >> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some new >> way >> of >> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard to >> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some >> hope, >> but >> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need on >> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually. >> In >> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make >> their >> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >> yesterday >> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >> would >> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's >> in >> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology goes. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >>>Steve and Mike, >>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>>working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit >>>silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>>bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>>braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or >>>(I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the >>>same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>>money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>least, better manage our precious SSI. >>> Just my thoughts, >>>Kirt >> >>>On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with BookShare >>>> to >>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of >>>> BKS >>>> books has improved over the years. >>>> >>>> Liz Bottner >>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>> e-mail: >>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>> Bookshare >>>> >>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>> accessible >>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more >>>> books >>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would >>>> be >>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first >>>> when >>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible >>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks >>>> accessible. >>>> >>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>> hands >>>> of >>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>> >>>> Sally Thomas >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>> Bookshare >>>> >>>> >>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>> I'm done now, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Julie, >>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>> With respect, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>> >>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>> them. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but >>>>>> I >>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>> products, >>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ": >>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>> those >>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or >>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If >>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at >>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. >>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we >>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and >>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>> il.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>> m >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>> >>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>> life." >>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>> l.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed May 25 19:31:24 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:31:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard problems Message-ID: <9F9678901E9A416B961D4EB9D9A8AE04@OwnerPC> Hi all, In my online class for technical editing I see issues submitting assignments. I got jaws 12. I’ll try to describe since I cannot show you all. When I enter the submit link it comes to a new page. You have a form field for comments and above it buttons for browsing to attach files. I clicked the browse button and it gave me an error message saying something like “use the button above ...” I couldn’t find any other button to use. I only see three other buttons: submit, cancel, and a back button or something I can’t remember. So I am having trouble attaching files to submit all my assignments. Odd thing is it worked better about a month ago and today I’m doing many assignment since I procrastinated, but can’t seem to make it work. I ended up emailing my professor my work. I’ve used tab, and the hot key B to go to all buttons. Any ideas. Ashley From brice.smith319 at gmail.com Wed May 25 19:34:06 2011 From: brice.smith319 at gmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:34:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Raiser's Edge Message-ID: Hi, Has anyone here used or worked with Raiser's Edge by Blackbaud for nonprofits? Google brings me to a discussion in 2003 where someone indicated the program was semi-accessible with Jaws or other screen reading technology, but things may have drastically changed in eight years. Thanks, Brice -- Brice Smith North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com From trillian551 at gmail.com Wed May 25 19:40:44 2011 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:40:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard problems In-Reply-To: <9F9678901E9A416B961D4EB9D9A8AE04@OwnerPC> References: <9F9678901E9A416B961D4EB9D9A8AE04@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hey Ashley, are you using a Wiki or the electronic Drop Box? On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi all, > In my online class for technical editing I see issues submitting > assignments. I got jaws 12. > > I’ll try to describe since I cannot show you all. When I enter the submit > link it comes to a new page. You have a form field for comments and above it > buttons for browsing to attach files. I clicked the browse button and it > gave me an error message saying something like “use the button above ...” > I couldn’t find any other button to use. I only see three other buttons: > submit, cancel, and a back button or something I can’t remember. > > So I am having trouble attaching files to submit all my assignments. Odd > thing is it worked better about a month ago and today I’m doing many > assignment since I procrastinated, but can’t seem to make it work. I ended > up emailing my professor my work. > I’ve used tab, and the hot key B to go to all buttons. > > Any ideas. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory University 2012 P.O. Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. 30322 Phone: 732-857-7004 "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it." Terry Pratchett From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed May 25 20:05:42 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:05:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] reply to Learning Ally question from Josh Message-ID: <4ddd612e.1116e70a.5ee6.0083@mx.google.com> Annemarie, Just so you know, your email address in the "sent" box was aec723 at msn.com. But the email you gave us in the body of the email was aec732 at gmail.com. Which one should someone email? Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Annemarie Cooke Yes, but that's hopefully a temporary fix. We're trying to get * independent access to the kiosks, just like sighted people. If there's a big line at the manned counter, a sighted person has the option of going over to the kiosk and checking in just as easily. We need that same access! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Miller" ,"'NABS list'" , "'NFBMD list'" Serena, It does! All you have to ask the Verizon sailsman to do is turn on the full readout in the sound settings of the phone. If you turn on the full readout, it will automatically turn on all the other readouts, which means it will read everything on the phone. The only thing it doesn't read is Internet using My Verizon. Hope that helps! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serena Cucco" References: Message-ID: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> Kirt, I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of books via NLS or bookshare. Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or cheap online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes novels are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook readers are accessible. Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they silenced speech? I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And as a personal example, my library has ebooks too. But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws was only reading the title, not the entire page! Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If ebook readers were actually accessible, then we can think about eliminating what you call preferential treatment. As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks and myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Steve, One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, at least with books that aren't textbooks. Warmly, Kirt On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Steve, > Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too > optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math > notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? > I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, > will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation > making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with > the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I > think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even > comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll > probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of > what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or > science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with > literary braille. > I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is > owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about > that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course > (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it > makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille > access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't > disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so > far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> Kirt, >> >> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some things >> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a >> novel, for >> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >> access >> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, so >> I >> am >> not suggesting that this isn't important. >> >> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may >> not >> be that >> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. >> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >> concentrate on making >> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final product >> by >> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is >> already >> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >> create >> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking the >> same text >> and making it available in another format. >> >> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you >> name >> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what sort >> of >> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >> industry >> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some new >> way >> of >> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard to >> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some >> hope, >> but >> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need on >> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually. >> In >> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make >> their >> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >> yesterday >> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >> would >> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's >> in >> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology goes. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >>>Steve and Mike, >>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>>working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit >>>silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>>bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>>braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or >>>(I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the >>>same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>>money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>least, better manage our precious SSI. >>> Just my thoughts, >>>Kirt >> >>>On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with BookShare >>>> to >>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of >>>> BKS >>>> books has improved over the years. >>>> >>>> Liz Bottner >>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>> e-mail: >>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>> Bookshare >>>> >>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>> accessible >>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more >>>> books >>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would >>>> be >>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first >>>> when >>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible >>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks >>>> accessible. >>>> >>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>> hands >>>> of >>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>> >>>> Sally Thomas >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>> Bookshare >>>> >>>> >>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>> I'm done now, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Julie, >>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>> With respect, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>> >>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>> them. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but >>>>>> I >>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>> products, >>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ": >>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>> those >>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or >>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If >>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at >>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. >>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we >>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and >>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>> il.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>> m >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>> >>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>> life." >>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>> l.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed May 25 20:23:34 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:23:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility Message-ID: <4ddd655e.85a9e60a.682e.0029@mx.google.com> AT and T? I thought the Android was only for Verizon phones. As far as I know, the Android is semiaccessible, but doesn't read some features. But if you have AT and T already, I would totally suggest getting the iPhone! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez References: Message-ID: <84327DBCB9E64AADB71533E550136703@OwnerPC> Brice, I asked around and asked a computer programmer the same questions. I'm looking to get a job in the nonprofit sector and this came up. Raisor's edge is semi accessible last I heard. Maybe call the NFB technology department for more info or call blackbaud. You might have to try it out and see how accessible it is. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Brice Smith Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:34 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Raiser's Edge Hi, Has anyone here used or worked with Raiser's Edge by Blackbaud for nonprofits? Google brings me to a discussion in 2003 where someone indicated the program was semi-accessible with Jaws or other screen reading technology, but things may have drastically changed in eight years. Thanks, Brice -- Brice Smith North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed May 25 20:26:17 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:26:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard problems In-Reply-To: References: <9F9678901E9A416B961D4EB9D9A8AE04@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <8555A41E0B9149679B260062C638AB18@OwnerPC> Hmm. I don't think drop box exists in this blackboard. Its just a page to upload your assignments. It says submit assignment xx here and you click on it and it brings you to the page I described with the upload buttons. -----Original Message----- From: Mary Fernandez Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard problems Hey Ashley, are you using a Wiki or the electronic Drop Box? On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi all, > In my online class for technical editing I see issues submitting > assignments. I got jaws 12. > > I’ll try to describe since I cannot show you all. When I enter the submit > link it comes to a new page. You have a form field for comments and above > it > buttons for browsing to attach files. I clicked the browse button and it > gave me an error message saying something like “use the button above ...” > I couldn’t find any other button to use. I only see three other buttons: > submit, cancel, and a back button or something I can’t remember. > > So I am having trouble attaching files to submit all my assignments. Odd > thing is it worked better about a month ago and today I’m doing many > assignment since I procrastinated, but can’t seem to make it work. I ended > up emailing my professor my work. > I’ve used tab, and the hot key B to go to all buttons. > > Any ideas. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory University 2012 P.O. Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. 30322 Phone: 732-857-7004 "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it." Terry Pratchett _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kfjelsted at gmail.com Wed May 25 20:39:11 2011 From: kfjelsted at gmail.com (Kevin Fjelsted) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:39:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be to work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any University or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS department creates to BookShare. Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books would be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and cataloging of accessible books. Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge funding to disability services this process if mandated by the federal government could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and insure that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as well as the actual book itself. Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that are available in accessible format or loose there federal disability funding then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on BookShare. I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and provide a common format that we can use across the various devices and accessible software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray that I can find an accessible version. We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there is not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to create accessible material. -Kevin On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: > Kirt, > I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of books via NLS or bookshare. > Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or cheap online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes novels are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook readers are accessible. > Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they silenced speech? > I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And as a personal example, my library has ebooks too. > But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws was only reading the title, not the entire page! > Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If ebook readers were actually accessible, then we can think about eliminating what you call preferential treatment. > As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks and myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > Steve, > One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to > novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we > still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally > for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of > delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook > lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our > novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them > honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare > or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, > at least with books that aren't textbooks. > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Steve, >> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? >> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >> literary braille. >> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille >> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >> Warmly, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>> Kirt, >>> >>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some things >>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a >>> novel, for >>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>> access >>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, so >>> I >>> am >>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>> >>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may >>> not >>> be that >>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. >>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>> concentrate on making >>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final product >>> by >>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is >>> already >>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>> create >>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking the >>> same text >>> and making it available in another format. >>> >>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you >>> name >>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what sort >>> of >>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>> industry >>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some new >>> way >>> of >>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard to >>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some >>> hope, >>> but >>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need on >>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually. >>> In >>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make >>> their >>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>> yesterday >>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>> would >>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's >>> in >>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology goes. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> >>>> Steve and Mike, >>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit >>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or >>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the >>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>> Just my thoughts, >>>> Kirt >>> >>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with BookShare >>>>> to >>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of >>>>> BKS >>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>> >>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>> e-mail: >>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>> Bookshare >>>>> >>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>> accessible >>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more >>>>> books >>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would >>>>> be >>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first >>>>> when >>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible >>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks >>>>> accessible. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>> hands >>>>> of >>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>> >>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>> Bookshare >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>> I'm done now, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>> Julie, >>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>> With respect, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>> them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or >>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should >>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If >>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at >>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. >>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we >>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and >>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>> m >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>> life." >>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>> il.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>> l.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Wed May 25 20:44:43 2011 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:44:43 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kirt, Well, I tried to cover this before but perhaps didn't do it well enough. Saying that the availability of novels is probably fairly straight-forward is not the same as saying that we already have access to them. In some cases we do, through BLIO, for example. However, I still believe that discarding the old infrastructures that have been built up over many years is a bit premature until we get a better sense of where electronic texts and their accessability is truly going. I don't doubt the commitment of BLIO to accessibility, but I do think that we can't say at this point how well the general market will support BLIO and that's important for it to work. It will take some time for many of us to get used to reading with a synthesized voice, even if it is pretty good. There are also many for whom technology is still a challenge. These things will probably change over time, but they are still true barriers today and will be so for a while yet. Electronic texts probably will have an impact on BookShare over time. Also, we are about the only organization of blind people who ever questions whether we need a given service, so even if we were to all agree that it is time to abandon BookShare and buy e-texts, there will be others who wil oppose that. Still, my contention is simply that we need to see better how the electronic text market matures and how accessibility fairs before advocating big changes in how we get books. Examining whether we are receiving preferential treatment is always a good thing to do in my opinion, and I hope we're honest enough with ourselves to continue this kind of self-examination. At the same time, we have to be careful to not trade a service we have for promises of what will be, and we also need to be careful not to sell out those of us who are less technical or on lower incomes. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Wed, 25 May 2011 13:24:50 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >Steve, > One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >at least with books that aren't textbooks. > Warmly, >Kirt >On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Steve, >> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? >> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >> literary braille. >> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille >> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >> Warmly, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>> Kirt, >>> >>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some things >>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a >>> novel, for >>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>> access >>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, so >>> I >>> am >>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>> >>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may >>> not >>> be that >>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. >>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>> concentrate on making >>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final product >>> by >>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is >>> already >>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>> create >>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking the >>> same text >>> and making it available in another format. >>> >>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you >>> name >>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what sort >>> of >>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>> industry >>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some new >>> way >>> of >>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard to >>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some >>> hope, >>> but >>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need on >>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually. >>> In >>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make >>> their >>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>> yesterday >>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>> would >>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's >>> in >>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology goes. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> >>>>Steve and Mike, >>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>>>working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>>more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit >>>>silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>>towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>>>bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>>>braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or >>>>(I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the >>>>same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>>>money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>Kirt >>> >>>>On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with BookShare >>>>> to >>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of >>>>> BKS >>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>> >>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>> e-mail: >>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>> Bookshare >>>>> >>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>> accessible >>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more >>>>> books >>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would >>>>> be >>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first >>>>> when >>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible >>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks >>>>> accessible. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>> hands >>>>> of >>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>> >>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>> Bookshare >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>> I'm done now, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>> Julie, >>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>> With respect, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>> them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or >>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should >>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If >>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at >>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. >>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we >>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and >>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>> m >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>> life." >>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>> il.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>> l.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From serena.c.cucco at gmail.com Wed May 25 20:56:03 2011 From: serena.c.cucco at gmail.com (Serena Cucco) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:56:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Samson Haven In-Reply-To: <4ddd6439.ad46340a.76ca.0c6f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Thanks! Not reading My Verizon ... that's fine w/ me cuz I'm not planning to go online w/ my cell, anyway. Serena -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 4:19 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Samson Haven Serena, It does! All you have to ask the Verizon sailsman to do is turn on the full readout in the sound settings of the phone. If you turn on the full readout, it will automatically turn on all the other readouts, which means it will read everything on the phone. The only thing it doesn't read is Internet using My Verizon. Hope that helps! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serena Cucco" References: Message-ID: Kevin, Not a bad idea. But the thing is some kinds of textbooks (ala calculus, chemistry, etc) that are symbol-intensive are still problematic in electronic braille. But I guess having the choice to read them that way isn't a bad thing. Ashley, I hear you. Does rehab not help pay for readers? And, as I said, I wouldn't mind if digital braille lending libraries like NLS implimented a real way to make sure you couldn't just download a book in braille and keep it forever-for sighted people, that usually results in huge library fines. And of course most people can buy paperbacks at pretty cheap prices-with Audible and Blio and the Kindle and IOS devices (especially if and when braille access improves), we have the ability to buy ebooks at the same prices everyone else has to. Downloading a book for free from bookshare or learning ally is not the same as going to the library and checking out a book because libraries have return policies (even for ebooks and digital audiobooks), so as to not violate copyright law. We can download a .brf book for free, which anyone else has to pay for if they want to keep instead of borrow. And I have another question. I recognize the need for accessible textbooks. My university accessibility center requires that I first purchase any book before they can make it accessible, which is perfectly reasonable-other students, after all, have to buy their textbooks if they want to own them. So why on earth can we permanently get college textbooks for _free_, which we can keep for as long as we like...in effect, we're buying books without paying for them. Were I a book publisher, I'd probably be a little bit ticked about that. I'm all for accessibility, but shouldn't we have to pay for our books if we want to keep them, just like everyone else has to? How on earth is this fair? On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: > Kirt, > > Well, I tried to cover this before but perhaps didn't do it well enough. > Saying that the availability of novels is probably fairly straight-forward > is not the same > as saying that we already have access to them. In some cases we do, through > BLIO, for example. However, I still believe that discarding the old > infrastructures that have been built up over many years is a bit premature > until we get a better sense of where electronic texts and their > accessability is truly > going. I don't doubt the commitment of BLIO to accessibility, but I do > think that we can't say at this point how well the general market will > support BLIO and > that's important for it to work. It will take some time for many of us to > get used to reading with a synthesized voice, even if it is pretty good. > There are also > many for whom technology is still a challenge. These things will probably > change over time, but they are still true barriers today and will be so for > a while yet. > > Electronic texts probably will have an impact on BookShare over time. Also, > we are about the only organization of blind people who ever questions > whether > we need a given service, so even if we were to all agree that it is time to > abandon BookShare and buy e-texts, there will be others who wil oppose that. > > Still, my contention is simply that we need to see better how the electronic > text market matures and how accessibility fairs before advocating big > changes in > how we get books. Examining whether we are receiving preferential treatment > is always a good thing to do in my opinion, and I hope we're honest enough > with ourselves to continue this kind of self-examination. At the same time, > we have to be careful to not trade a service we have for promises of what > will be, > and we also need to be careful not to sell out those of us who are less > technical or on lower incomes. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Wed, 25 May 2011 13:24:50 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >>Steve, >> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >>for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >>at least with books that aren't textbooks. >> Warmly, >>Kirt > >>On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Steve, >>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? >>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>> literary braille. >>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille >>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>> Warmly, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>> Kirt, >>>> >>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some things >>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a >>>> novel, for >>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>>> access >>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, so >>>> I >>>> am >>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>> >>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may >>>> not >>>> be that >>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. >>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>>> concentrate on making >>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final product >>>> by >>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is >>>> already >>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>>> create >>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking the >>>> same text >>>> and making it available in another format. >>>> >>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you >>>> name >>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what >>>> sort >>>> of >>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>>> industry >>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some new >>>> way >>>> of >>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard >>>> to >>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some >>>> hope, >>>> but >>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need >>>> on >>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually. >>>> In >>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make >>>> their >>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>> yesterday >>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>>> would >>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's >>>> in >>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology goes. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> >>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> >>>>>Steve and Mike, >>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>>But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>>Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>>>>working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>>reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>>>more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit >>>>>silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>>more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>>>towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>>>>bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>>>>braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>>setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or >>>>>(I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the >>>>>same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>>>>money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>Kirt >>>> >>>>>On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>> BookShare >>>>>> to >>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of >>>>>> BKS >>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>> >>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>> >>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>> accessible >>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more >>>>>> books >>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would >>>>>> be >>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first >>>>>> when >>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible >>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>> textbooks >>>>>> accessible. >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>>> hands >>>>>> of >>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to >>>>>>> get >>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they >>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed >>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. >>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or >>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that >>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the >>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If >>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at >>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No >>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always >>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. >>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. >>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in >>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the >>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we >>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and >>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we >>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>> m >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>> l.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed May 25 21:04:48 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:04:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? Message-ID: <4ddd6f07.22bb340a.1c02.117c@mx.google.com> Maurice, I agree! I joined NABS to network with other blind students from across the country who share my belief in the NFB philosophy and learn stratigies and get and give advice that will help me and others. Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Maurice Mines References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1E335CBD-E492-4372-BECF-4B34FCAB0A24@panix.com> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such strictures on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: > Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be to work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any University or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS department creates to BookShare. > Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books would be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. > The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and cataloging of accessible books. > Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge funding to disability services this process if mandated by the federal government could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and insure that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as well as the actual book itself. > > Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that are available in accessible format or loose there federal disability funding then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on BookShare. > I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and provide a common format that we can use across the various devices and accessible software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray that I can find an accessible version. > > We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there is not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to create accessible material. > -Kevin > > On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: > >> Kirt, >> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of books via NLS or bookshare. >> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or cheap online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes novels are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook readers are accessible. >> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they silenced speech? >> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And as a personal example, my library has ebooks too. >> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws was only reading the title, not the entire page! >> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If ebook readers were actually accessible, then we can think about eliminating what you call preferential treatment. >> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks and myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >> >> Ashley >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >> >> Steve, >> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >> Warmly, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Steve, >>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? >>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>> literary braille. >>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille >>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>> Warmly, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>> Kirt, >>>> >>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some things >>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a >>>> novel, for >>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>>> access >>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, so >>>> I >>>> am >>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>> >>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may >>>> not >>>> be that >>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. >>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>>> concentrate on making >>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final product >>>> by >>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is >>>> already >>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>>> create >>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking the >>>> same text >>>> and making it available in another format. >>>> >>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you >>>> name >>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what sort >>>> of >>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>>> industry >>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some new >>>> way >>>> of >>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard to >>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some >>>> hope, >>>> but >>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need on >>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually. >>>> In >>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make >>>> their >>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>> yesterday >>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>>> would >>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's >>>> in >>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology goes. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> >>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> >>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit >>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or >>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the >>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>> Kirt >>>> >>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with BookShare >>>>>> to >>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of >>>>>> BKS >>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>> >>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>> >>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>> accessible >>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more >>>>>> books >>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would >>>>>> be >>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first >>>>>> when >>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible >>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks >>>>>> accessible. >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>>> hands >>>>>> of >>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or >>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If >>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at >>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. >>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we >>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and >>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>> m >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>> l.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From kfjelsted at gmail.com Wed May 25 21:13:35 2011 From: kfjelsted at gmail.com (Kevin Fjelsted) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:13:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: <1E335CBD-E492-4372-BECF-4B34FCAB0A24@panix.com> References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> <1E335CBD-E492-4372-BECF-4B34FCAB0A24@panix.com> Message-ID: I actually don't think it would take any new laws. I think the department of education could write the regulations for this based on existing law. The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper regulations. The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes from the federal government. So if the department of education and the other agencies combined there efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that they need to convert. The department of education doesn't need to build another database or storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare. -Kevin On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such strictures on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: > >> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be to work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any University or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS department creates to BookShare. >> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books would be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. >> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and cataloging of accessible books. >> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge funding to disability services this process if mandated by the federal government could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and insure that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as well as the actual book itself. >> >> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that are available in accessible format or loose there federal disability funding then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on BookShare. >> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and provide a common format that we can use across the various devices and accessible software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray that I can find an accessible version. >> >> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there is not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to create accessible material. >> -Kevin >> >> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: >> >>> Kirt, >>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of books via NLS or bookshare. >>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or cheap online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes novels are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook readers are accessible. >>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they silenced speech? >>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And as a personal example, my library has ebooks too. >>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws was only reading the title, not the entire page! >>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If ebook readers were actually accessible, then we can think about eliminating what you call preferential treatment. >>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks and myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >>> >>> Steve, >>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>> Warmly, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Steve, >>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? >>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>> literary braille. >>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille >>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>> Warmly, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>> Kirt, >>>>> >>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some things >>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a >>>>> novel, for >>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>>>> access >>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, so >>>>> I >>>>> am >>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>> >>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may >>>>> not >>>>> be that >>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. >>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>>>> concentrate on making >>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final product >>>>> by >>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is >>>>> already >>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>>>> create >>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking the >>>>> same text >>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>> >>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you >>>>> name >>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what sort >>>>> of >>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>>>> industry >>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some new >>>>> way >>>>> of >>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard to >>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some >>>>> hope, >>>>> but >>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need on >>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually. >>>>> In >>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make >>>>> their >>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>> yesterday >>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>>>> would >>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's >>>>> in >>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology goes. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit >>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or >>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the >>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with BookShare >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of >>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more >>>>>>> books >>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible >>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks >>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>>>> hands >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or >>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should >>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If >>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at >>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. >>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we >>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and >>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks >>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com From maurice.mines at gmail.com Wed May 25 21:15:36 2011 From: maurice.mines at gmail.com (Maurice Mines) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:15:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: <1E335CBD-E492-4372-BECF-4B34FCAB0A24@panix.com> References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> <1E335CBD-E492-4372-BECF-4B34FCAB0A24@panix.com> Message-ID: hello while your philosophy is probably in the correct place, the reality is far from it. As Mr. Freeman has just dated there are some major hurdles as far as technical books, the other issue is how are you going to get a population that is largely unemployed to pay for items that they have not the money to do so with. Eliminating the national Library service and part of the reason for the books for the blind program in the beginning if I understand the history correctly, was to provide reading materials to those that simply did not have the means to obtain such. Look share book share for some technical books is still pretty much the only game in town, the O'Reilly series has been very beneficial to me personally because I can read books from that publishing house at least that I have no other accessible means of gaining access to it with. An essence as many others have said the status quo probably is going to still be around for a very long time. Until things change for the better hopefully at some point in the future. Thank you very much for reading this. Your friend Maurice, amateur callsign kd0iko. On May 25, 2011, at 3:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such strictures on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: > >> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be to work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any University or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS department creates to BookShare. >> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books would be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. >> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and cataloging of accessible books. >> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge funding to disability services this process if mandated by the federal government could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and insure that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as well as the actual book itself. >> >> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that are available in accessible format or loose there federal disability funding then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on BookShare. >> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and provide a common format that we can use across the various devices and accessible software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray that I can find an accessible version. >> >> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there is not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to create accessible material. >> -Kevin >> >> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: >> >>> Kirt, >>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of books via NLS or bookshare. >>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or cheap online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes novels are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook readers are accessible. >>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they silenced speech? >>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And as a personal example, my library has ebooks too. >>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws was only reading the title, not the entire page! >>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If ebook readers were actually accessible, then we can think about eliminating what you call preferential treatment. >>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks and myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >>> >>> Steve, >>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>> Warmly, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Steve, >>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? >>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>> literary braille. >>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille >>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>> Warmly, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>> Kirt, >>>>> >>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some things >>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a >>>>> novel, for >>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>>>> access >>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, so >>>>> I >>>>> am >>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>> >>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may >>>>> not >>>>> be that >>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. >>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>>>> concentrate on making >>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final product >>>>> by >>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is >>>>> already >>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>>>> create >>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking the >>>>> same text >>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>> >>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you >>>>> name >>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what sort >>>>> of >>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>>>> industry >>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some new >>>>> way >>>>> of >>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard to >>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some >>>>> hope, >>>>> but >>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need on >>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually. >>>>> In >>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make >>>>> their >>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>> yesterday >>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>>>> would >>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's >>>>> in >>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology goes. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit >>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or >>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the >>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with BookShare >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of >>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more >>>>>>> books >>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible >>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks >>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>>>> hands >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or >>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should >>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If >>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at >>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. >>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we >>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and >>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks >>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/maurice.mines%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 25 21:17:40 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:17:40 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: <4ddd655e.85a9e60a.682e.0029@mx.google.com> References: <4ddd655e.85a9e60a.682e.0029@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Chris, Most major carriers have android nowadays. On 5/25/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > AT and T? I thought the Android was only for Verizon phones. As > far as I know, the Android is semiaccessible, but doesn't read > some features. But if you have AT and T already, I would totally > suggest getting the iPhone! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:40:45 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility > > Hi all: > Just wondering, > my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am > interested in the Android platform. > What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? > Is TalkBack any good? > > > Thank you. > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed May 25 21:14:09 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:14:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: wouldn't mind if NLS had a time limit on their downloadable books. But getting hard copy is similar to the library; you got to return hard copy books or the digital books within a month. I think the borrowing there is similar to a sighted person borrowing from a library; only thing is NLS only has a fraction of the library. Kirt, my schools also require proof of purchase before they make an accessible book via the publisher sending electronic text. I'm fine with that because sighted students have to buy books too. I see what you say about downloading books free. I guess that is the loop hole in digital downloads. But if you get an old fashion CD from Learning Ally, you still have to return it. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:02 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Kevin, Not a bad idea. But the thing is some kinds of textbooks (ala calculus, chemistry, etc) that are symbol-intensive are still problematic in electronic braille. But I guess having the choice to read them that way isn't a bad thing. Ashley, I hear you. Does rehab not help pay for readers? And, as I said, I wouldn't mind if digital braille lending libraries like NLS implimented a real way to make sure you couldn't just download a book in braille and keep it forever-for sighted people, that usually results in huge library fines. And of course most people can buy paperbacks at pretty cheap prices-with Audible and Blio and the Kindle and IOS devices (especially if and when braille access improves), we have the ability to buy ebooks at the same prices everyone else has to. Downloading a book for free from bookshare or learning ally is not the same as going to the library and checking out a book because libraries have return policies (even for ebooks and digital audiobooks), so as to not violate copyright law. We can download a .brf book for free, which anyone else has to pay for if they want to keep instead of borrow. And I have another question. I recognize the need for accessible textbooks. My university accessibility center requires that I first purchase any book before they can make it accessible, which is perfectly reasonable-other students, after all, have to buy their textbooks if they want to own them. So why on earth can we permanently get college textbooks for _free_, which we can keep for as long as we like...in effect, we're buying books without paying for them. Were I a book publisher, I'd probably be a little bit ticked about that. I'm all for accessibility, but shouldn't we have to pay for our books if we want to keep them, just like everyone else has to? How on earth is this fair? On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: > Kirt, > > Well, I tried to cover this before but perhaps didn't do it well enough. > Saying that the availability of novels is probably fairly straight-forward > is not the same > as saying that we already have access to them. In some cases we do, > through > BLIO, for example. However, I still believe that discarding the old > infrastructures that have been built up over many years is a bit premature > until we get a better sense of where electronic texts and their > accessability is truly > going. I don't doubt the commitment of BLIO to accessibility, but I do > think that we can't say at this point how well the general market will > support BLIO and > that's important for it to work. It will take some time for many of us to > get used to reading with a synthesized voice, even if it is pretty good. > There are also > many for whom technology is still a challenge. These things will probably > change over time, but they are still true barriers today and will be so > for > a while yet. > > Electronic texts probably will have an impact on BookShare over time. > Also, > we are about the only organization of blind people who ever questions > whether > we need a given service, so even if we were to all agree that it is time > to > abandon BookShare and buy e-texts, there will be others who wil oppose > that. > > Still, my contention is simply that we need to see better how the > electronic > text market matures and how accessibility fairs before advocating big > changes in > how we get books. Examining whether we are receiving preferential > treatment > is always a good thing to do in my opinion, and I hope we're honest enough > with ourselves to continue this kind of self-examination. At the same > time, > we have to be careful to not trade a service we have for promises of what > will be, > and we also need to be careful not to sell out those of us who are less > technical or on lower incomes. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Wed, 25 May 2011 13:24:50 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >>Steve, >> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >>for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >>at least with books that aren't textbooks. >> Warmly, >>Kirt > >>On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Steve, >>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? >>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>> literary braille. >>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille >>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>> Warmly, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>> Kirt, >>>> >>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some >>>> things >>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a >>>> novel, for >>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>>> access >>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, >>>> so >>>> I >>>> am >>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>> >>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may >>>> not >>>> be that >>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. >>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>>> concentrate on making >>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final >>>> product >>>> by >>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is >>>> already >>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>>> create >>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking >>>> the >>>> same text >>>> and making it available in another format. >>>> >>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you >>>> name >>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what >>>> sort >>>> of >>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>>> industry >>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some >>>> new >>>> way >>>> of >>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard >>>> to >>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some >>>> hope, >>>> but >>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need >>>> on >>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually. >>>> In >>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make >>>> their >>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>> yesterday >>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>>> would >>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's >>>> in >>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology >>>> goes. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> >>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> >>>>>Steve and Mike, >>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>>But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>>Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>>>>working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>>reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>>>more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit >>>>>silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>>more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>>>towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>>>>bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>>>>braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>>setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or >>>>>(I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the >>>>>same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>>>>money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>Kirt >>>> >>>>>On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>> BookShare >>>>>> to >>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of >>>>>> BKS >>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>> >>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>> >>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>> accessible >>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more >>>>>> books >>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would >>>>>> be >>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility >>>>>> first >>>>>> when >>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of >>>>>> accessible >>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>> textbooks >>>>>> accessible. >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>>> hands >>>>>> of >>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your >>>>>> notetaker >>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too >>>>>> long >>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use >>>>>> to >>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to >>>>>> get >>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library >>>>>> isn't >>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to >>>>>>> get >>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone >>>>>>> else. >>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people >>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they >>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed >>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't >>>>>>>> mean >>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the >>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. >>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, >>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, >>>>>>>>> fundamental >>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or >>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at >>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that >>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the >>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and >>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the >>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as >>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If >>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at >>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now >>>>>>>>>> simultaneously >>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability >>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats >>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No >>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always >>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen >>>>>>>>>> sharply. >>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the >>>>>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the >>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. >>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact >>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as >>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who >>>>>>>>>> regularly, >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in >>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the >>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving >>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we >>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, >>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or >>>>>>>>>> entertaining >>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>> m >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>> l.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed May 25 21:21:22 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:21:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve, Well said and that is my concern too. All this technology like computers and braille displays are a privelege students take for granted. Those unemployed blind people cannot afford such luxuries. Remember any technology you got was probably purchased for you as a student by rehab. But technology doesn't last forever. So while you're unemployed seeking work for five or ten years, your technology will break and that wonderful tech savy braille display you had with your notetaker isn't there anymore. Also consider those on low incomes without computers or those seniors who can't understand technology or the multiple disabled students who have trouble with technology. I have trouble with synthesized speech. I do NOt, Not find sitting and listening to a computer enjoyable at all. I find it very tiring. I want reading to be pleasurable and learn something. IThat is why I like NLS books and what was RFB books due to the human voice. Reading should be fun and for pleasure. If I have to listen to a robot, that is not fun at all. So if ebook readers existed, I'd personally not want to use them if I had to use jaws or synthesized speech. I want a human voice. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Steve Jacobson Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 4:44 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Kirt, Well, I tried to cover this before but perhaps didn't do it well enough. Saying that the availability of novels is probably fairly straight-forward is not the same as saying that we already have access to them. In some cases we do, through BLIO, for example. However, I still believe that discarding the old infrastructures that have been built up over many years is a bit premature until we get a better sense of where electronic texts and their accessability is truly going. I don't doubt the commitment of BLIO to accessibility, but I do think that we can't say at this point how well the general market will support BLIO and that's important for it to work. It will take some time for many of us to get used to reading with a synthesized voice, even if it is pretty good. There are also many for whom technology is still a challenge. These things will probably change over time, but they are still true barriers today and will be so for a while yet. Electronic texts probably will have an impact on BookShare over time. Also, we are about the only organization of blind people who ever questions whether we need a given service, so even if we were to all agree that it is time to abandon BookShare and buy e-texts, there will be others who wil oppose that. Still, my contention is simply that we need to see better how the electronic text market matures and how accessibility fairs before advocating big changes in how we get books. Examining whether we are receiving preferential treatment is always a good thing to do in my opinion, and I hope we're honest enough with ourselves to continue this kind of self-examination. At the same time, we have to be careful to not trade a service we have for promises of what will be, and we also need to be careful not to sell out those of us who are less technical or on lower incomes. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Wed, 25 May 2011 13:24:50 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >Steve, > One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >at least with books that aren't textbooks. > Warmly, >Kirt >On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Steve, >> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? >> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >> literary braille. >> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille >> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >> Warmly, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>> Kirt, >>> >>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some things >>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a >>> novel, for >>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>> access >>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, so >>> I >>> am >>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>> >>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may >>> not >>> be that >>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. >>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>> concentrate on making >>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final product >>> by >>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is >>> already >>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>> create >>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking the >>> same text >>> and making it available in another format. >>> >>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you >>> name >>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what >>> sort >>> of >>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>> industry >>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some new >>> way >>> of >>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard >>> to >>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some >>> hope, >>> but >>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need >>> on >>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually. >>> In >>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make >>> their >>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>> yesterday >>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>> would >>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's >>> in >>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology goes. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> >>>>Steve and Mike, >>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>>>working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>>more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit >>>>silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>>towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>>>bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>>>braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or >>>>(I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the >>>>same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>>>money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>Kirt >>> >>>>On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>> BookShare >>>>> to >>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of >>>>> BKS >>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>> >>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>> e-mail: >>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>> Bookshare >>>>> >>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>> accessible >>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more >>>>> books >>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would >>>>> be >>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first >>>>> when >>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible >>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>> textbooks >>>>> accessible. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>> hands >>>>> of >>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>> >>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>> Bookshare >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>> I'm done now, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>> Julie, >>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have >>>>>> to >>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to >>>>>> get >>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>> With respect, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they >>>>>>> go >>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>> them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. >>>>>>> Just >>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or >>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that >>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the >>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should >>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If >>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at >>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No >>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always >>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. >>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. >>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in >>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the >>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we >>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and >>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we >>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>> m >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>> life." >>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>> il.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>> l.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From k7uij at panix.com Wed May 25 21:22:58 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 14:22:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirt: This is a case wherein' the solution might cost more than the problem. For NLS to enforce a scheme to prevent keeping downloaded books would cost more in time and resources than it would be worth, even if this would be more philosophically palatable to us. Also, Learning Ally now instructs us to delete downloaded books after we've read them or are done using them. Again, enforcing this would be more work than it is worth. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 25, 2011, at 14:02, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Kevin, > Not a bad idea. But the thing is some kinds of textbooks (ala > calculus, chemistry, etc) that are symbol-intensive are still > problematic in electronic braille. But I guess having the choice to > read them that way isn't a bad thing. > Ashley, I hear you. Does rehab not help pay for readers? And, as I > said, I wouldn't mind if digital braille lending libraries like NLS > implimented a real way to make sure you couldn't just download a book > in braille and keep it forever-for sighted people, that usually > results in huge library fines. And of course most people can buy > paperbacks at pretty cheap prices-with Audible and Blio and the Kindle > and IOS devices (especially if and when braille access improves), we > have the ability to buy ebooks at the same prices everyone else has > to. Downloading a book for free from bookshare or learning ally is > not the same as going to the library and checking out a book because > libraries have return policies (even for ebooks and digital > audiobooks), so as to not violate copyright law. We can download a > .brf book for free, which anyone else has to pay for if they want to > keep instead of borrow. > And I have another question. I recognize the need for accessible > textbooks. My university accessibility center requires that I first > purchase any book before they can make it accessible, which is > perfectly reasonable-other students, after all, have to buy their > textbooks if they want to own them. So why on earth can we > permanently get college textbooks for _free_, which we can keep for as > long as we like...in effect, we're buying books without paying for > them. Were I a book publisher, I'd probably be a little bit ticked > about that. I'm all for accessibility, but shouldn't we have to pay > for our books if we want to keep them, just like everyone else has to? > How on earth is this fair? > > On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> Kirt, >> >> Well, I tried to cover this before but perhaps didn't do it well enough. >> Saying that the availability of novels is probably fairly straight-forward >> is not the same >> as saying that we already have access to them. In some cases we do, through >> BLIO, for example. However, I still believe that discarding the old >> infrastructures that have been built up over many years is a bit premature >> until we get a better sense of where electronic texts and their >> accessability is truly >> going. I don't doubt the commitment of BLIO to accessibility, but I do >> think that we can't say at this point how well the general market will >> support BLIO and >> that's important for it to work. It will take some time for many of us to >> get used to reading with a synthesized voice, even if it is pretty good. >> There are also >> many for whom technology is still a challenge. These things will probably >> change over time, but they are still true barriers today and will be so for >> a while yet. >> >> Electronic texts probably will have an impact on BookShare over time. Also, >> we are about the only organization of blind people who ever questions >> whether >> we need a given service, so even if we were to all agree that it is time to >> abandon BookShare and buy e-texts, there will be others who wil oppose that. >> >> Still, my contention is simply that we need to see better how the electronic >> text market matures and how accessibility fairs before advocating big >> changes in >> how we get books. Examining whether we are receiving preferential treatment >> is always a good thing to do in my opinion, and I hope we're honest enough >> with ourselves to continue this kind of self-examination. At the same time, >> we have to be careful to not trade a service we have for promises of what >> will be, >> and we also need to be careful not to sell out those of us who are less >> technical or on lower incomes. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Wed, 25 May 2011 13:24:50 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >>> Steve, >>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>> Warmly, >>> Kirt >> >>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Steve, >>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? >>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>> literary braille. >>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille >>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>> Warmly, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>> Kirt, >>>>> >>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some things >>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a >>>>> novel, for >>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>>>> access >>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, so >>>>> I >>>>> am >>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>> >>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may >>>>> not >>>>> be that >>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. >>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>>>> concentrate on making >>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final product >>>>> by >>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is >>>>> already >>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>>>> create >>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking the >>>>> same text >>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>> >>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you >>>>> name >>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what >>>>> sort >>>>> of >>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>>>> industry >>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some new >>>>> way >>>>> of >>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard >>>>> to >>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some >>>>> hope, >>>>> but >>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need >>>>> on >>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually. >>>>> In >>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make >>>>> their >>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>> yesterday >>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>>>> would >>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's >>>>> in >>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology goes. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit >>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or >>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the >>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>>> BookShare >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of >>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more >>>>>>> books >>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible >>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>>> textbooks >>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>>>> hands >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to >>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they >>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed >>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. >>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or >>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that >>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the >>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should >>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If >>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at >>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No >>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always >>>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. >>>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. >>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in >>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the >>>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we >>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and >>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we >>>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting >>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks >>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed May 25 21:22:32 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:22:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? Message-ID: <4ddd732f.4f76e50a.3ce3.030f@mx.google.com> I agree, Angelina. That's why I joined NABS as well! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list wrote: Hey all, I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions and more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want to be involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you contribute to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of your state division. If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed. Thanks! Darian p.s. I am seriously curious :) -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac 26%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed May 25 21:24:16 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:24:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <33CC1C522D0C4B499AD7EEE45423FEA9@OwnerPC> There is already a catalog of books. It is called Access text. DSS offices can share books this way; I think eight publishers belong to it. I'm advocating for my school to belong to the database. I don't think we need another federal mandate. Equal access i s already covered under section 504 and ADA. We just have to get schools to follow the existing laws! Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Fjelsted Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 4:39 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be to work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any University or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS department creates to BookShare. Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books would be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and cataloging of accessible books. Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge funding to disability services this process if mandated by the federal government could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and insure that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as well as the actual book itself. Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that are available in accessible format or loose there federal disability funding then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on BookShare. I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and provide a common format that we can use across the various devices and accessible software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray that I can find an accessible version. We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there is not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to create accessible material. -Kevin On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: > Kirt, > I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of books > via NLS or bookshare. > Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or cheap > online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes novels > are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook readers are > accessible. > Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they silenced > speech? > I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And as a > personal example, my library has ebooks too. > But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws was > only reading the title, not the entire page! > Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If ebook > readers were actually accessible, then we can think about eliminating what > you call preferential treatment. > As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks and > myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > Steve, > One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to > novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we > still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally > for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of > delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook > lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our > novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them > honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare > or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, > at least with books that aren't textbooks. > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Steve, >> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? >> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >> literary braille. >> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille >> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >> Warmly, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>> Kirt, >>> >>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some things >>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a >>> novel, for >>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>> access >>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, so >>> I >>> am >>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>> >>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may >>> not >>> be that >>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. >>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>> concentrate on making >>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final product >>> by >>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is >>> already >>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>> create >>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking the >>> same text >>> and making it available in another format. >>> >>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you >>> name >>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what >>> sort >>> of >>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>> industry >>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some new >>> way >>> of >>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard >>> to >>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some >>> hope, >>> but >>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need >>> on >>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually. >>> In >>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make >>> their >>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>> yesterday >>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>> would >>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's >>> in >>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology goes. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> >>>> Steve and Mike, >>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit >>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or >>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the >>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>> Just my thoughts, >>>> Kirt >>> >>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>> BookShare >>>>> to >>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of >>>>> BKS >>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>> >>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>> e-mail: >>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>> Bookshare >>>>> >>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>> accessible >>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more >>>>> books >>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would >>>>> be >>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first >>>>> when >>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible >>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>> textbooks >>>>> accessible. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>> hands >>>>> of >>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>> >>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>> Bookshare >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>> I'm done now, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>> Julie, >>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have >>>>>> to >>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to >>>>>> get >>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>> With respect, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they >>>>>>> go >>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>> them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. >>>>>>> Just >>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or >>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that >>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the >>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should >>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If >>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at >>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No >>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always >>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. >>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. >>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in >>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the >>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we >>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and >>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we >>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>> m >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>> life." >>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>> il.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>> l.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 25 21:27:45 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:27:45 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> <1E335CBD-E492-4372-BECF-4B34FCAB0A24@panix.com> Message-ID: Ashley, You're supposed to return a cd from learning ally-I think I still have some old ones from years ago hiding in my room somewhere, and noone's so much as sent me a notice so I'm not sure how much that's actually enforced. NLS enforces that policy pretty good-except there aren't fines or anything for lost books...they just put it in as "lost" in their files and that's the end of that. Don't ask me how I know...suffice it to say that, were I a user of regular libraries, I'd have a lot less money to play with. *grin* So no, the return policies aren't exactly the same, at least as they're enforced in real life. Oh-and for the record, my days of losing library books ended a long time ago. Mostly. Best, Kirt On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Kevin, > There are some textbooks for which bookshare isn't all that > practical. For instance, I took a logic class last semester where > they used all sorts of symbols that aren't in any braille code...I > kind of had to make my own personal logic-braille. (which I mostly > used on paper because there just weren't symbols in the braille code > for what I needed) Bookshare couldn't handle those kinds of books. > From my understanding, Mike was talking about the technical aspect > more than the legal aspect. (i.e, rendering books like my logic book > accessible in electronic braille). Mike, am I understanding you > wrong? > Best, > Kirt > > On 5/25/11, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >> I actually don't think it would take any new laws. >> I think the department of education could write the regulations for this >> based on existing law. >> The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper >> regulations. >> The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes from >> the >> federal government. >> So if the department of education and the other agencies combined there >> efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to >> provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that >> they >> need to convert. >> The department of education doesn't need to build another database or >> storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare. >> -Kevin >> >> >> On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >> >>> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical >>> materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such >>> strictures >>> on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract. >>> >>> Mike Freeman >>> sent from my iPhone >>> >>> >>> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>> >>>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be to >>>> work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any >>>> University >>>> or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability >>>> services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS >>>> department creates to BookShare. >>>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books would >>>> be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. >>>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and >>>> cataloging of accessible books. >>>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of >>>> funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge >>>> funding >>>> to disability services this process if mandated by the federal >>>> government >>>> could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and insure >>>> that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as >>>> well as the actual book itself. >>>> >>>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that are >>>> available in accessible format or loose there federal disability >>>> funding >>>> then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on BookShare. >>>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and provide >>>> a >>>> common format that we can use across the various devices and accessible >>>> software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray >>>> that I can find an accessible version. >>>> >>>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there is >>>> not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to >>>> create accessible material. >>>> -Kevin >>>> >>>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: >>>> >>>>> Kirt, >>>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of >>>>> books >>>>> via NLS or bookshare. >>>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or >>>>> cheap >>>>> online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes >>>>> novels >>>>> are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook readers >>>>> are accessible. >>>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they >>>>> silenced speech? >>>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And as >>>>> a >>>>> personal example, my library has ebooks too. >>>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws was >>>>> only reading the title, not the entire page! >>>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If ebook >>>>> readers were actually accessible, then we can think about eliminating >>>>> what you call preferential treatment. >>>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks >>>>> and >>>>> myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>> Bookshare >>>>> >>>>> Steve, >>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >>>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>>>> Warmly, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>> Steve, >>>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't >>>>>> it? >>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >>>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >>>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>>>> literary braille. >>>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and >>>>>> braille >>>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some >>>>>>> things >>>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> novel, for >>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>>>>>> access >>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream >>>>>>> titles, >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> am >>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This >>>>>>> may >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> be that >>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in >>>>>>> textbooks. >>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>>>>>> concentrate on making >>>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final >>>>>>> product >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> already >>>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>>>>>> create >>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> same text >>>>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> name >>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what >>>>>>> sort >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>>>>>> industry >>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some >>>>>>> new >>>>>>> way >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is >>>>>>> hard >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have >>>>>>> some >>>>>>> hope, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer >>>>>>> need >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case >>>>>>> eventually. >>>>>>> In >>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to >>>>>>> make >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>>>> yesterday >>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible >>>>>>> PDF's >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology >>>>>>> goes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a >>>>>>>> bit >>>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those >>>>>>>> expensive >>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>>>>> BookShare >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility >>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of >>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>>>>> textbooks >>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>>>>>> hands >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a >>>>>>>>> dedicated >>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or >>>>>>>>> RFB&D >>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be >>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your >>>>>>>>> notetaker >>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too >>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we >>>>>>>>> use >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far >>>>>>>>> off), >>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to >>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library >>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just >>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read >>>>>>>>>> mainstream >>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a >>>>>>>>>> library >>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille >>>>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar >>>>>>>>>> bookstores >>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone >>>>>>>>>> else. >>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already >>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have >>>>>>>>>> options >>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone >>>>>>>>>> else >>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted >>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or >>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on >>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. >>>>>>>>>>> No, >>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just >>>>>>>>>>> embossed >>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't >>>>>>>>>>> mean >>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download >>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the >>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If >>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away >>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. >>>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, >>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my >>>>>>>>>>> rambles. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to >>>>>>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire >>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, >>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental >>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of >>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at >>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I >>>>>>>>>>>> immediately >>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that >>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and >>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved >>>>>>>>>>>> towards >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and >>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the >>>>>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> future? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and >>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>> books. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the >>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display >>>>>>>>>>>>> or a >>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those >>>>>>>>>>>>> voices >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into >>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as >>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks >>>>>>>>>>>>> app >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter >>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have >>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why >>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. >>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of >>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look >>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to >>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now >>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and >>>>>>>>>>>>> students >>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the >>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability >>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump >>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>>> devices, >>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume >>>>>>>>>>>>> large >>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a >>>>>>>>>>>>> cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it >>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats >>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons >>>>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. >>>>>>>>>>>>> No >>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always >>>>>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or >>>>>>>>>>>>> preferential >>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen >>>>>>>>>>>>> sharply. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the >>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, >>>>>>>>>>>>> 93% >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the >>>>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> past. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound >>>>>>>>>>>>> impact >>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you >>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as >>>>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who >>>>>>>>>>>>> regularly, >>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of >>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in >>>>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the >>>>>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving >>>>>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the >>>>>>>>>>>>> integrated >>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like >>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a >>>>>>>>>>>>> instructional >>>>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much >>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in >>>>>>>>>>>>> similar >>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would >>>>>>>>>>>>> love a >>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we >>>>>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals >>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less >>>>>>>>>>>>> capable >>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books >>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, >>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>> starting >>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the >>>>>>>>>>>>> iPod >>>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users >>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or >>>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining >>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies >>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet >>>>>>>>>>>>> balks >>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of >>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by >>>>>>>>>>>>> extension >>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves >>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to >>>>>>>>>>>>> move >>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public >>>>>>>>>>>> Relations >>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in >>>>>>>>>>> Opera >>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of >>>>>>>>>>> Guiding >>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > From k7uij at panix.com Wed May 25 21:28:37 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 14:28:37 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> <1E335CBD-E492-4372-BECF-4B34FCAB0A24@panix.com> Message-ID: My point is that the technology to require conversion in the case of some technical materials by the publishers just isn't there yet. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 25, 2011, at 14:13, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: > I actually don't think it would take any new laws. > I think the department of education could write the regulations for this based on existing law. > The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper regulations. > The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes from the federal government. > So if the department of education and the other agencies combined there efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that they need to convert. > The department of education doesn't need to build another database or storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare. > -Kevin > > > On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > >> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such strictures on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract. >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >> >>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be to work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any University or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS department creates to BookShare. >>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books would be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. >>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and cataloging of accessible books. >>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge funding to disability services this process if mandated by the federal government could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and insure that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as well as the actual book itself. >>> >>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that are available in accessible format or loose there federal disability funding then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on BookShare. >>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and provide a common format that we can use across the various devices and accessible software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray that I can find an accessible version. >>> >>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there is not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to create accessible material. >>> -Kevin >>> >>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: >>> >>>> Kirt, >>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of books via NLS or bookshare. >>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or cheap online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes novels are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook readers are accessible. >>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they silenced speech? >>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And as a personal example, my library has ebooks too. >>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws was only reading the title, not the entire page! >>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If ebook readers were actually accessible, then we can think about eliminating what you call preferential treatment. >>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks and myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >>>> >>>> Steve, >>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>>> Warmly, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Steve, >>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? >>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>>> literary braille. >>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille >>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>>> Warmly, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>> >>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some things >>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a >>>>>> novel, for >>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>>>>> access >>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, so >>>>>> I >>>>>> am >>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>>> >>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may >>>>>> not >>>>>> be that >>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. >>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>>>>> concentrate on making >>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final product >>>>>> by >>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is >>>>>> already >>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>>>>> create >>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking the >>>>>> same text >>>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>>> >>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you >>>>>> name >>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what sort >>>>>> of >>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>>>>> industry >>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some new >>>>>> way >>>>>> of >>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard to >>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some >>>>>> hope, >>>>>> but >>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need on >>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually. >>>>>> In >>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make >>>>>> their >>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>>> yesterday >>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>>>>> would >>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's >>>>>> in >>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology goes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit >>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or >>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the >>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with BookShare >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of >>>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more >>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first >>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible >>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks >>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>>>>> hands >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or >>>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books >>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should >>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If >>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at >>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. >>>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, >>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we >>>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks >>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 25 21:21:35 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:21:35 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> <1E335CBD-E492-4372-BECF-4B34FCAB0A24@panix.com> Message-ID: Kevin, There are some textbooks for which bookshare isn't all that practical. For instance, I took a logic class last semester where they used all sorts of symbols that aren't in any braille code...I kind of had to make my own personal logic-braille. (which I mostly used on paper because there just weren't symbols in the braille code for what I needed) Bookshare couldn't handle those kinds of books. >From my understanding, Mike was talking about the technical aspect more than the legal aspect. (i.e, rendering books like my logic book accessible in electronic braille). Mike, am I understanding you wrong? Best, Kirt On 5/25/11, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: > I actually don't think it would take any new laws. > I think the department of education could write the regulations for this > based on existing law. > The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper > regulations. > The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes from the > federal government. > So if the department of education and the other agencies combined there > efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to > provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that they > need to convert. > The department of education doesn't need to build another database or > storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare. > -Kevin > > > On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > >> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical >> materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such strictures >> on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract. >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >> >>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be to >>> work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any University >>> or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability >>> services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS >>> department creates to BookShare. >>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books would >>> be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. >>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and >>> cataloging of accessible books. >>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of >>> funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge funding >>> to disability services this process if mandated by the federal government >>> could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and insure >>> that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as >>> well as the actual book itself. >>> >>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that are >>> available in accessible format or loose there federal disability funding >>> then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on BookShare. >>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and provide a >>> common format that we can use across the various devices and accessible >>> software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray >>> that I can find an accessible version. >>> >>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there is >>> not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to >>> create accessible material. >>> -Kevin >>> >>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: >>> >>>> Kirt, >>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of books >>>> via NLS or bookshare. >>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or cheap >>>> online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes novels >>>> are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook readers >>>> are accessible. >>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they >>>> silenced speech? >>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And as a >>>> personal example, my library has ebooks too. >>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws was >>>> only reading the title, not the entire page! >>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If ebook >>>> readers were actually accessible, then we can think about eliminating >>>> what you call preferential treatment. >>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks and >>>> myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>> Bookshare >>>> >>>> Steve, >>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>>> Warmly, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Steve, >>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? >>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>>> literary braille. >>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille >>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>>> Warmly, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>> >>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some >>>>>> things >>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a >>>>>> novel, for >>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>>>>> access >>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, >>>>>> so >>>>>> I >>>>>> am >>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>>> >>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may >>>>>> not >>>>>> be that >>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. >>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>>>>> concentrate on making >>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final >>>>>> product >>>>>> by >>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is >>>>>> already >>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>>>>> create >>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking >>>>>> the >>>>>> same text >>>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>>> >>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you >>>>>> name >>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what >>>>>> sort >>>>>> of >>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>>>>> industry >>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some >>>>>> new >>>>>> way >>>>>> of >>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard >>>>>> to >>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some >>>>>> hope, >>>>>> but >>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need >>>>>> on >>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case >>>>>> eventually. >>>>>> In >>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make >>>>>> their >>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>>> yesterday >>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>>>>> would >>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible >>>>>> PDF's >>>>>> in >>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology >>>>>> goes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a >>>>>>> bit >>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>>>> BookShare >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility >>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of >>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>>>> textbooks >>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>>>>> hands >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a >>>>>>>> dedicated >>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or >>>>>>>> RFB&D >>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be >>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your >>>>>>>> notetaker >>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too >>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far >>>>>>>> off), >>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to >>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library >>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a >>>>>>>>> library >>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille >>>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores >>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to >>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone >>>>>>>>> else. >>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people >>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they >>>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed >>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't >>>>>>>>>> mean >>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download >>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the >>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away >>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. >>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, >>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire >>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, >>>>>>>>>>> fundamental >>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of >>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at >>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I >>>>>>>>>>> immediately >>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that >>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the >>>>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the >>>>>>>>>>>> future? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and >>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the >>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display >>>>>>>>>>>> or a >>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those >>>>>>>>>>>> voices >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as >>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have >>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why >>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. >>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at >>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to >>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now >>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability >>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume >>>>>>>>>>>> large >>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats >>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No >>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always >>>>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen >>>>>>>>>>>> sharply. >>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the >>>>>>>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the >>>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. >>>>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact >>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as >>>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who >>>>>>>>>>>> regularly, >>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. >>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of >>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in >>>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the >>>>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving >>>>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as >>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would >>>>>>>>>>>> love a >>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we >>>>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, >>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting >>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users >>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or >>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining >>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet >>>>>>>>>>>> balks >>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves >>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of >>>>>>>>>> Guiding >>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> 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>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> 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_______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kfjelsted at gmail.com Wed May 25 21:31:45 2011 From: kfjelsted at gmail.com (Kevin Fjelsted) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:31:45 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All the books I download from Learning Ally have a timelimit on them and apparently expire after one year. I assume that means they won't play after that. -Kevin On May 25, 2011, at 4:22 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > Learning Ally From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 25 21:32:38 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:32:38 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> <1E335CBD-E492-4372-BECF-4B34FCAB0A24@panix.com> Message-ID: Ashley, If your braille display breaks and you're unemployed...good luck reading bookshare books in braille. Using those ebook readers and paying for a couple books with SSI would probably be one of the few options you had left- or you might have to rely on the hardcopy braille books the NLS provides. Do you see my point? The problem of expensive braille displays, and getting them with little or no income, will be there no matter if we're using bookshare or blio to get our braille books. On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Ashley, > You're supposed to return a cd from learning ally-I think I still > have some old ones from years ago hiding in my room somewhere, and > noone's so much as sent me a notice so I'm not sure how much that's > actually enforced. NLS enforces that policy pretty good-except there > aren't fines or anything for lost books...they just put it in as > "lost" in their files and that's the end of that. Don't ask me how I > know...suffice it to say that, were I a user of regular libraries, I'd > have a lot less money to play with. *grin* So no, the return > policies aren't exactly the same, at least as they're enforced in real > life. Oh-and for the record, my days of losing library books ended a > long time ago. Mostly. > Best, > Kirt > > On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Kevin, >> There are some textbooks for which bookshare isn't all that >> practical. For instance, I took a logic class last semester where >> they used all sorts of symbols that aren't in any braille code...I >> kind of had to make my own personal logic-braille. (which I mostly >> used on paper because there just weren't symbols in the braille code >> for what I needed) Bookshare couldn't handle those kinds of books. >> From my understanding, Mike was talking about the technical aspect >> more than the legal aspect. (i.e, rendering books like my logic book >> accessible in electronic braille). Mike, am I understanding you >> wrong? >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/25/11, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>> I actually don't think it would take any new laws. >>> I think the department of education could write the regulations for this >>> based on existing law. >>> The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper >>> regulations. >>> The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes from >>> the >>> federal government. >>> So if the department of education and the other agencies combined there >>> efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to >>> provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that >>> they >>> need to convert. >>> The department of education doesn't need to build another database or >>> storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare. >>> -Kevin >>> >>> >>> On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> >>>> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical >>>> materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such >>>> strictures >>>> on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract. >>>> >>>> Mike Freeman >>>> sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>>> >>>>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be to >>>>> work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any >>>>> University >>>>> or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability >>>>> services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS >>>>> department creates to BookShare. >>>>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books >>>>> would >>>>> be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. >>>>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and >>>>> cataloging of accessible books. >>>>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of >>>>> funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge >>>>> funding >>>>> to disability services this process if mandated by the federal >>>>> government >>>>> could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and >>>>> insure >>>>> that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as >>>>> well as the actual book itself. >>>>> >>>>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that are >>>>> available in accessible format or loose there federal disability >>>>> funding >>>>> then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on >>>>> BookShare. >>>>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and provide >>>>> a >>>>> common format that we can use across the various devices and >>>>> accessible >>>>> software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray >>>>> that I can find an accessible version. >>>>> >>>>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there >>>>> is >>>>> not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to >>>>> create accessible material. >>>>> -Kevin >>>>> >>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of >>>>>> books >>>>>> via NLS or bookshare. >>>>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or >>>>>> cheap >>>>>> online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes >>>>>> novels >>>>>> are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook readers >>>>>> are accessible. >>>>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they >>>>>> silenced speech? >>>>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And >>>>>> as >>>>>> a >>>>>> personal example, my library has ebooks too. >>>>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws >>>>>> was >>>>>> only reading the title, not the entire page! >>>>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If >>>>>> ebook >>>>>> readers were actually accessible, then we can think about eliminating >>>>>> what you call preferential treatment. >>>>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks >>>>>> and >>>>>> myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>> >>>>>> Steve, >>>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >>>>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>>>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>>>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >>>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>> Steve, >>>>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't >>>>>>> it? >>>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >>>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >>>>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>>>>> literary braille. >>>>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >>>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of >>>>>>> course >>>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and >>>>>>> braille >>>>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some >>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> novel, for >>>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We >>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>> access >>>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream >>>>>>>> titles, >>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and >>>>>>>> math >>>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This >>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> be that >>>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in >>>>>>>> textbooks. >>>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> concentrate on making >>>>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final >>>>>>>> product >>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> already >>>>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>>>>>>> create >>>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just >>>>>>>> taking >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> same text >>>>>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> name >>>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know >>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>> sort >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>>>>>>> industry >>>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if >>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is >>>>>>>> hard >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have >>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>> hope, >>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer >>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case >>>>>>>> eventually. >>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to >>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>>>>> yesterday >>>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible >>>>>>>> PDF's >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology >>>>>>>> goes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not >>>>>>>>> become >>>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a >>>>>>>>> bit >>>>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving >>>>>>>>> fast >>>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those >>>>>>>>> expensive >>>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or >>>>>>>>> coursesmart >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>>>>>> BookShare >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that >>>>>>>>>> quality >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and >>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility >>>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of >>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>>>>>> textbooks >>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> hands >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a >>>>>>>>>> dedicated >>>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the >>>>>>>>>> point >>>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or >>>>>>>>>> RFB&D >>>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be >>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your >>>>>>>>>> notetaker >>>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too >>>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we >>>>>>>>>> use >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far >>>>>>>>>> off), >>>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last >>>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library >>>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every >>>>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just >>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read >>>>>>>>>>> mainstream >>>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a >>>>>>>>>>> tremendous >>>>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a >>>>>>>>>>> library >>>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille >>>>>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people >>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar >>>>>>>>>>> bookstores >>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone >>>>>>>>>>> else. >>>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already >>>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have >>>>>>>>>>> options >>>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone >>>>>>>>>>> else >>>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about >>>>>>>>>>> this-please >>>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted >>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or >>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on >>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. >>>>>>>>>>>> No, >>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just >>>>>>>>>>>> embossed >>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can >>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>> mean >>>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download >>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the >>>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. >>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't >>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, >>>>>>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away >>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. >>>>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random >>>>>>>>>>>> things, >>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my >>>>>>>>>>>> rambles. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to >>>>>>>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire >>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, >>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental >>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of >>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure >>>>>>>>>>>>> trove >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at >>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I >>>>>>>>>>>>> immediately >>>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure >>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved >>>>>>>>>>>>> towards >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Josh >>>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> future? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>> books. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those >>>>>>>>>>>>>> voices >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into >>>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>> app >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> couple >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why >>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> several >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic >>>>>>>>>>>>>> one. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now >>>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> students >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contrast, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume >>>>>>>>>>>>>> large >>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital >>>>>>>>>>>>>> retailer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats >>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons >>>>>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> No >>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferential >>>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sharply. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 93% >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> past. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who >>>>>>>>>>>>>> regularly, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid >>>>>>>>>>>>>> readers >>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving >>>>>>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> integrated >>>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like >>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructional >>>>>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar >>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high >>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would >>>>>>>>>>>>>> love a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less >>>>>>>>>>>>>> capable >>>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>> starting >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPod >>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users >>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining >>>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies >>>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet >>>>>>>>>>>>>> balks >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> extension >>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> move >>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public >>>>>>>>>>>>> Relations >>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in >>>>>>>>>>>> Opera >>>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of >>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding >>>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have >>>>>>>>>>>> eternal >>>>>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 25 21:34:39 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:34:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> <1E335CBD-E492-4372-BECF-4B34FCAB0A24@panix.com> Message-ID: Mike, I wish you weren't right. On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Ashley, > If your braille display breaks and you're unemployed...good luck > reading bookshare books in braille. Using those ebook readers and > paying for a couple books with SSI would probably be one of the few > options you had left- or you might have to rely on the hardcopy > braille books the NLS provides. Do you see my point? The problem of > expensive braille displays, and getting them with little or no income, > will be there no matter if we're using bookshare or blio to get our > braille books. > > On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Ashley, >> You're supposed to return a cd from learning ally-I think I still >> have some old ones from years ago hiding in my room somewhere, and >> noone's so much as sent me a notice so I'm not sure how much that's >> actually enforced. NLS enforces that policy pretty good-except there >> aren't fines or anything for lost books...they just put it in as >> "lost" in their files and that's the end of that. Don't ask me how I >> know...suffice it to say that, were I a user of regular libraries, I'd >> have a lot less money to play with. *grin* So no, the return >> policies aren't exactly the same, at least as they're enforced in real >> life. Oh-and for the record, my days of losing library books ended a >> long time ago. Mostly. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Kevin, >>> There are some textbooks for which bookshare isn't all that >>> practical. For instance, I took a logic class last semester where >>> they used all sorts of symbols that aren't in any braille code...I >>> kind of had to make my own personal logic-braille. (which I mostly >>> used on paper because there just weren't symbols in the braille code >>> for what I needed) Bookshare couldn't handle those kinds of books. >>> From my understanding, Mike was talking about the technical aspect >>> more than the legal aspect. (i.e, rendering books like my logic book >>> accessible in electronic braille). Mike, am I understanding you >>> wrong? >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/25/11, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>>> I actually don't think it would take any new laws. >>>> I think the department of education could write the regulations for >>>> this >>>> based on existing law. >>>> The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper >>>> regulations. >>>> The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes >>>> from >>>> the >>>> federal government. >>>> So if the department of education and the other agencies combined there >>>> efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to >>>> provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that >>>> they >>>> need to convert. >>>> The department of education doesn't need to build another database or >>>> storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare. >>>> -Kevin >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>> >>>>> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical >>>>> materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such >>>>> strictures >>>>> on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract. >>>>> >>>>> Mike Freeman >>>>> sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be >>>>>> to >>>>>> work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any >>>>>> University >>>>>> or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability >>>>>> services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS >>>>>> department creates to BookShare. >>>>>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books >>>>>> would >>>>>> be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. >>>>>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and >>>>>> cataloging of accessible books. >>>>>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of >>>>>> funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge >>>>>> funding >>>>>> to disability services this process if mandated by the federal >>>>>> government >>>>>> could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and >>>>>> insure >>>>>> that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as >>>>>> well as the actual book itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that >>>>>> are >>>>>> available in accessible format or loose there federal disability >>>>>> funding >>>>>> then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on >>>>>> BookShare. >>>>>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and >>>>>> provide >>>>>> a >>>>>> common format that we can use across the various devices and >>>>>> accessible >>>>>> software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray >>>>>> that I can find an accessible version. >>>>>> >>>>>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there >>>>>> is >>>>>> not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to >>>>>> create accessible material. >>>>>> -Kevin >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of >>>>>>> books >>>>>>> via NLS or bookshare. >>>>>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or >>>>>>> cheap >>>>>>> online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes >>>>>>> novels >>>>>>> are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook >>>>>>> readers >>>>>>> are accessible. >>>>>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they >>>>>>> silenced speech? >>>>>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> personal example, my library has ebooks too. >>>>>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> only reading the title, not the entire page! >>>>>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If >>>>>>> ebook >>>>>>> readers were actually accessible, then we can think about >>>>>>> eliminating >>>>>>> what you call preferential treatment. >>>>>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve, >>>>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>>>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>>>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning >>>>>>> ally >>>>>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>>>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>>>>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>>>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>>>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>>>>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to >>>>>>> me, >>>>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>> Steve, >>>>>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't >>>>>>>> it? >>>>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its >>>>>>>> annoyances, >>>>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>>>>>> literary braille. >>>>>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>>>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of >>>>>>>> course >>>>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>>>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and >>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility >>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some >>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> novel, for >>>>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We >>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>> access >>>>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream >>>>>>>>> titles, >>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and >>>>>>>>> math >>>>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This >>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> be that >>>>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in >>>>>>>>> textbooks. >>>>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally >>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>> concentrate on making >>>>>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final >>>>>>>>> product >>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> already >>>>>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> create >>>>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just >>>>>>>>> taking >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> same text >>>>>>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> name >>>>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know >>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>> sort >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. >>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>> industry >>>>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if >>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is >>>>>>>>> hard >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have >>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>> hope, >>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer >>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case >>>>>>>>> eventually. >>>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to >>>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>>>>>> yesterday >>>>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible >>>>>>>>> PDF's >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology >>>>>>>>> goes. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too >>>>>>>>>> hard. >>>>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks >>>>>>>>>> premature? >>>>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an >>>>>>>>>> ebook >>>>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not >>>>>>>>>> become >>>>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> bit >>>>>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys >>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving >>>>>>>>>> fast >>>>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to >>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those >>>>>>>>>> expensive >>>>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same >>>>>>>>>> technology >>>>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or >>>>>>>>>> coursesmart >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to >>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>>>>>>> BookShare >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that >>>>>>>>>>> quality >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process >>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and >>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it >>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility >>>>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of >>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>>>>>>> textbooks >>>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> hands >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a >>>>>>>>>>> dedicated >>>>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the >>>>>>>>>>> point >>>>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or >>>>>>>>>>> RFB&D >>>>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll >>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your >>>>>>>>>>> notetaker >>>>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out >>>>>>>>>>> there, >>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be >>>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we >>>>>>>>>>> use >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical >>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far >>>>>>>>>>> off), >>>>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last >>>>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books >>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library >>>>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every >>>>>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just >>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of >>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read >>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a >>>>>>>>>>>> tremendous >>>>>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a >>>>>>>>>>>> library >>>>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille >>>>>>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people >>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar >>>>>>>>>>>> bookstores >>>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone >>>>>>>>>>>> else. >>>>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already >>>>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have >>>>>>>>>>>> options >>>>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone >>>>>>>>>>>> else >>>>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, >>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about >>>>>>>>>>>> this-please >>>>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted >>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or >>>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on >>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. >>>>>>>>>>>>> No, >>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just >>>>>>>>>>>>> embossed >>>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can >>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It >>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>>> mean >>>>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download >>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. >>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't >>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, >>>>>>>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken >>>>>>>>>>>>> away >>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? >>>>>>>>>>>>> No. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random >>>>>>>>>>>>> things, >>>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my >>>>>>>>>>>>> rambles. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire >>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental >>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure >>>>>>>>>>>>>> trove >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> immediately >>>>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved >>>>>>>>>>>>>> towards >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Josh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voices >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> students >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contrast, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> large >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> retailer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raises, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferential >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sharply. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 93% >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regularly, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> read. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> readers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> integrated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructional >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> love a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individuals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> starting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPod >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extension >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> move >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relations >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in >>>>>>>>>>>>> Opera >>>>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of >>>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding >>>>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have >>>>>>>>>>>>> eternal >>>>>>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >> > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 25 21:35:42 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:35:42 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> <1E335CBD-E492-4372-BECF-4B34FCAB0A24@panix.com> Message-ID: Kevin, I didn't know that. I feel a little less guilty about my learning ally books, assuming you're right. On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Mike, > I wish you weren't right. > > On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Ashley, >> If your braille display breaks and you're unemployed...good luck >> reading bookshare books in braille. Using those ebook readers and >> paying for a couple books with SSI would probably be one of the few >> options you had left- or you might have to rely on the hardcopy >> braille books the NLS provides. Do you see my point? The problem of >> expensive braille displays, and getting them with little or no income, >> will be there no matter if we're using bookshare or blio to get our >> braille books. >> >> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Ashley, >>> You're supposed to return a cd from learning ally-I think I still >>> have some old ones from years ago hiding in my room somewhere, and >>> noone's so much as sent me a notice so I'm not sure how much that's >>> actually enforced. NLS enforces that policy pretty good-except there >>> aren't fines or anything for lost books...they just put it in as >>> "lost" in their files and that's the end of that. Don't ask me how I >>> know...suffice it to say that, were I a user of regular libraries, I'd >>> have a lot less money to play with. *grin* So no, the return >>> policies aren't exactly the same, at least as they're enforced in real >>> life. Oh-and for the record, my days of losing library books ended a >>> long time ago. Mostly. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Kevin, >>>> There are some textbooks for which bookshare isn't all that >>>> practical. For instance, I took a logic class last semester where >>>> they used all sorts of symbols that aren't in any braille code...I >>>> kind of had to make my own personal logic-braille. (which I mostly >>>> used on paper because there just weren't symbols in the braille code >>>> for what I needed) Bookshare couldn't handle those kinds of books. >>>> From my understanding, Mike was talking about the technical aspect >>>> more than the legal aspect. (i.e, rendering books like my logic book >>>> accessible in electronic braille). Mike, am I understanding you >>>> wrong? >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/25/11, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>>>> I actually don't think it would take any new laws. >>>>> I think the department of education could write the regulations for >>>>> this >>>>> based on existing law. >>>>> The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper >>>>> regulations. >>>>> The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes >>>>> from >>>>> the >>>>> federal government. >>>>> So if the department of education and the other agencies combined >>>>> there >>>>> efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to >>>>> provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that >>>>> they >>>>> need to convert. >>>>> The department of education doesn't need to build another database or >>>>> storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare. >>>>> -Kevin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical >>>>>> materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such >>>>>> strictures >>>>>> on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike Freeman >>>>>> sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any >>>>>>> University >>>>>>> or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability >>>>>>> services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS >>>>>>> department creates to BookShare. >>>>>>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. >>>>>>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and >>>>>>> cataloging of accessible books. >>>>>>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of >>>>>>> funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge >>>>>>> funding >>>>>>> to disability services this process if mandated by the federal >>>>>>> government >>>>>>> could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and >>>>>>> insure >>>>>>> that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> well as the actual book itself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> available in accessible format or loose there federal disability >>>>>>> funding >>>>>>> then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on >>>>>>> BookShare. >>>>>>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and >>>>>>> provide >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> common format that we can use across the various devices and >>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>> software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and >>>>>>> pray >>>>>>> that I can find an accessible version. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> create accessible material. >>>>>>> -Kevin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of >>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>> via NLS or bookshare. >>>>>>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or >>>>>>>> cheap >>>>>>>> online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes >>>>>>>> novels >>>>>>>> are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook >>>>>>>> readers >>>>>>>> are accessible. >>>>>>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they >>>>>>>> silenced speech? >>>>>>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> personal example, my library has ebooks too. >>>>>>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> only reading the title, not the entire page! >>>>>>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If >>>>>>>> ebook >>>>>>>> readers were actually accessible, then we can think about >>>>>>>> eliminating >>>>>>>> what you call preferential treatment. >>>>>>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the >>>>>>>> ebooks >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve, >>>>>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>>>>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>>>>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning >>>>>>>> ally >>>>>>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>>>>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>>>>>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>>>>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>>>>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from >>>>>>>> bookshare >>>>>>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to >>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>> Steve, >>>>>>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>>>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>>>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't >>>>>>>>> it? >>>>>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its >>>>>>>>> annoyances, >>>>>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>>>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>>>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>>>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>>>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>>>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>>>>>>> literary braille. >>>>>>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>>>>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of >>>>>>>>> course >>>>>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and >>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>>>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility >>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some >>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> novel, for >>>>>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We >>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>> access >>>>>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream >>>>>>>>>> titles, >>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and >>>>>>>>>> math >>>>>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. >>>>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> be that >>>>>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in >>>>>>>>>> textbooks. >>>>>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally >>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>> concentrate on making >>>>>>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final >>>>>>>>>> product >>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> already >>>>>>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> create >>>>>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just >>>>>>>>>> taking >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> same text >>>>>>>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the >>>>>>>>>> tools >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>> name >>>>>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know >>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>> sort >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. >>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>> industry >>>>>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if >>>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is >>>>>>>>>> hard >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have >>>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>>> hope, >>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer >>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case >>>>>>>>>> eventually. >>>>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to >>>>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>>>>>>> yesterday >>>>>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible >>>>>>>>>> PDF's >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where >>>>>>>>>> technology >>>>>>>>>> goes. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too >>>>>>>>>>> hard. >>>>>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks >>>>>>>>>>> premature? >>>>>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio >>>>>>>>>>> reader >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an >>>>>>>>>>> ebook >>>>>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not >>>>>>>>>>> become >>>>>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> bit >>>>>>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys >>>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving >>>>>>>>>>> fast >>>>>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to >>>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to >>>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those >>>>>>>>>>> expensive >>>>>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same >>>>>>>>>>> technology >>>>>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or >>>>>>>>>>> coursesmart >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to >>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't >>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the >>>>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that >>>>>>>>>>>> quality >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to >>>>>>>>>>>> produce >>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process >>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it >>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put >>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility >>>>>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of >>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>>>>>>>> textbooks >>>>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> hands >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a >>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated >>>>>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the >>>>>>>>>>>> point >>>>>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or >>>>>>>>>>>> RFB&D >>>>>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll >>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your >>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker >>>>>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out >>>>>>>>>>>> there, >>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be >>>>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we >>>>>>>>>>>> use >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical >>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far >>>>>>>>>>>> off), >>>>>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last >>>>>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally >>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's >>>>>>>>>>>> library >>>>>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every >>>>>>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just >>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of >>>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read >>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a >>>>>>>>>>>>> tremendous >>>>>>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a >>>>>>>>>>>>> library >>>>>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy >>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people >>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar >>>>>>>>>>>>> bookstores >>>>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we >>>>>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like >>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>> else. >>>>>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on >>>>>>>>>>>>> apple >>>>>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already >>>>>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to >>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have >>>>>>>>>>>>> options >>>>>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>> else >>>>>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not >>>>>>>>>>>>> hippocricy, >>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about >>>>>>>>>>>>> this-please >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just >>>>>>>>>>>>>> embossed >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> access >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can >>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It >>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download >>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken >>>>>>>>>>>>>> away >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people >>>>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> No. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random >>>>>>>>>>>>>> things, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rambles. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trove >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> immediately >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> towards >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Josh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voices >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> students >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contrast, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> large >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> retailer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e-book >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasons. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raises, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferential >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sharply. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2001, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 93% >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regularly, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> read. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> readers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> integrated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructional >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> love a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individuals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> starting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPod >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> approaching >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extension >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> move >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relations >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Opera >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> eternal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From ignasicambra at gmail.com Wed May 25 21:32:01 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:32:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: <4ddd655e.85a9e60a.682e.0029@mx.google.com> References: <4ddd655e.85a9e60a.682e.0029@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <6843F7EA-DBD1-4C6A-A4E3-517C7E97A951@gmail.com> There are many Android phones available both on Verizon and AT&T, and you can also get an iPhone from either carrier. On May 25, 2011, at 4:23 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > AT and T? I thought the Android was only for Verizon phones. As far as I know, the Android is semiaccessible, but doesn't read some features. But if you have AT and T already, I would totally suggest getting the iPhone! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:40:45 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility > > Hi all: > Just wondering, > my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in the Android platform. > What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? > Is TalkBack any good? > > > Thank you. > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From k7uij at panix.com Wed May 25 21:45:52 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 14:45:52 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindtlk] [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blindflyers'claims over airport kiosks In-Reply-To: <4ddd6134.1116e70a.5ee6.0086@mx.google.com> References: <4ddd6134.1116e70a.5ee6.0086@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <830DDA46-9158-4ABC-8EC7-3242A1CC8F1A@panix.com> Let's be clear: we would like such access; we don'ttruly need it most of the time. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 25, 2011, at 13:05, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Yes, but that's hopefully a temporary fix. We're trying to get * independent access to the kiosks, just like sighted people. If there's a big line at the manned counter, a sighted person has the option of going over to the kiosk and checking in just as easily. We need that same access! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Miller" To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" ,"'NABS list'" , "'NFBMD list'" Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 16:33:37 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blindflyers'claims over airport kiosks > > I agree that this is a set-back, and I do hope we continue to press the > issue. However, I have to confess that as annoying as these kiosks are, > their presence has yet to keep me off a plane or prevent me from checking > in. I just insist on getting assistance from a human being and I always get > it. It's when we can't check in at all, or when there are no longer any > human beings at the counter at all that we are in trouble. Another scenario > could be that checking in at kiosks earns passengers special privileges, > such as better selection of seating, or discounted baggage fess. I don't > believe this is the case yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is on the > horizon. When that day comes, we are in real trouble, and I believe we will > have an even stronger case of discrimination to make. > > I think also it has to be noted that it appears this judge didn't rule on > the merits of the case, or whether or not there was a violation of state law > -- just that state law didn't apply in this case due to the overriding > precedence of the Air Carrier Act. In other words, if I understand this > correctly, the court in California wasn't saying we didn't have standing at > all, just that we didn't have standing in that court -- or at the state > level, and that we need to address the issue at the federal level. > > Brian Miller > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 3:58 PM > To: NABS list; Blind Talk list; NFBMD list > Subject: [Blindtlk] [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blind > flyers'claims over airport kiosks > > And back to court we go... just to be dismissed! Hope they appeal! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ---- Original Message ------ > From: "Sherri" Subject: [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blind flyers' > claims over airport kiosks > Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 02:22:38 -0400 > > I'm sure we'll think of some other way to solve this problem. > > Sherri > > > Westlaw Journal Aviation > Federal law preempts blind flyers' claims over airport kiosks > 5/23/2011 COMMENTS (0) > > > May 23 (Westlaw Journals) - Federal law preempts a class action brought by > the National Federation of the Blind and several visually impaired people > over the accessibility of airport ticketing kiosks, a California federal > judge has ruled. > > U.S. District Judge William Alsup of the Northern District of California > dismissed the NFB's lawsuit, finding the claims preempted by the Air Carrier > Access Act and the Airline Deregulation Act. > > The NFB and other plaintiffs alleged United Airlines violates California > disability law by failing to make airport ticketing kiosks accessible to the > blind. > > According to the complaint, the kiosks employ a visual computer screen with > prompts and touch-screen navigation but do not offer an audio output or > other medium to make the kiosks accessible to the blind. > > The plaintiffs brought their class action on behalf of all legally blind > people in the United States who have flown on United from a California > airport and have been unable to use the airline's kiosks. > > United moved for dismissal, arguing that the Airline Deregulation Act and > the Air Carrier Access Act preempt the plaintiffs' claims. > > Judge Alsup agreed. > > The claims are field-preempted under the ACAA because the Department of > Transportation pervasively regulates airport kiosk accessibility, he said. > > In addition, the Airline Deregulation Act expressly preempts the claims > because they defendants provide an airline "service" as defined in the > statute. > > Finally, the judge rejected the plaintiffs' argument that the Airline > Deregulation Act was meant to target airline deregulation rather than > discrimination. > > "The Airline Deregulation Act unequivocally declares that no state may enact > a law related to airline service," the Judge Alsup said. > "Congress could > have drawn the preemption provision more narrowly. It did not." > > National Federation of the Blind et al. v. United Airlines Inc., No. C > 10-04816 WHA, 2011 WL 1544524 (N.D. Cal. Apr. 25, 2011). > > (Reporting by Jennifer Long, Westlaw Journal Aviation) > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > --------------- > > Register or log in to comment. > C 2011 Thomson Reuters > > a.. Co > Have you visited my personal page at > http://www.raceforindependence.org/goto/Sherri.Brun > If so, Thank you for changing what it means to be blind. > If not, please go there now! > Thank you. > flmom2006 at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nfb-talk mailing list > nfb-talk at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nfb-talk: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/dotkid. > nusbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindtlk mailing list > blindtlk at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindtlk: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/brian-r > -miller%40u > iowa.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > blindtlk mailing list > blindtlk at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dotkid. > nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From k7uij at panix.com Wed May 25 21:49:18 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 14:49:18 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> <1E335CBD-E492-4372-BECF-4B34FCAB0A24@panix.com> Message-ID: <156C8C93-6DB5-4FFD-9F35-AC4A0BFC18CA@panix.com> Learning Ally now instructs us to dispose of the CDs. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 25, 2011, at 14:35, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Kevin, > I didn't know that. I feel a little less guilty about my learning > ally books, assuming you're right. > > On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Mike, >> I wish you weren't right. >> >> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Ashley, >>> If your braille display breaks and you're unemployed...good luck >>> reading bookshare books in braille. Using those ebook readers and >>> paying for a couple books with SSI would probably be one of the few >>> options you had left- or you might have to rely on the hardcopy >>> braille books the NLS provides. Do you see my point? The problem of >>> expensive braille displays, and getting them with little or no income, >>> will be there no matter if we're using bookshare or blio to get our >>> braille books. >>> >>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Ashley, >>>> You're supposed to return a cd from learning ally-I think I still >>>> have some old ones from years ago hiding in my room somewhere, and >>>> noone's so much as sent me a notice so I'm not sure how much that's >>>> actually enforced. NLS enforces that policy pretty good-except there >>>> aren't fines or anything for lost books...they just put it in as >>>> "lost" in their files and that's the end of that. Don't ask me how I >>>> know...suffice it to say that, were I a user of regular libraries, I'd >>>> have a lot less money to play with. *grin* So no, the return >>>> policies aren't exactly the same, at least as they're enforced in real >>>> life. Oh-and for the record, my days of losing library books ended a >>>> long time ago. Mostly. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Kevin, >>>>> There are some textbooks for which bookshare isn't all that >>>>> practical. For instance, I took a logic class last semester where >>>>> they used all sorts of symbols that aren't in any braille code...I >>>>> kind of had to make my own personal logic-braille. (which I mostly >>>>> used on paper because there just weren't symbols in the braille code >>>>> for what I needed) Bookshare couldn't handle those kinds of books. >>>>> From my understanding, Mike was talking about the technical aspect >>>>> more than the legal aspect. (i.e, rendering books like my logic book >>>>> accessible in electronic braille). Mike, am I understanding you >>>>> wrong? >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/25/11, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>>>>> I actually don't think it would take any new laws. >>>>>> I think the department of education could write the regulations for >>>>>> this >>>>>> based on existing law. >>>>>> The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper >>>>>> regulations. >>>>>> The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes >>>>>> from >>>>>> the >>>>>> federal government. >>>>>> So if the department of education and the other agencies combined >>>>>> there >>>>>> efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to >>>>>> provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that >>>>>> they >>>>>> need to convert. >>>>>> The department of education doesn't need to build another database or >>>>>> storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare. >>>>>> -Kevin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical >>>>>>> materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such >>>>>>> strictures >>>>>>> on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike Freeman >>>>>>> sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any >>>>>>>> University >>>>>>>> or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability >>>>>>>> services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS >>>>>>>> department creates to BookShare. >>>>>>>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. >>>>>>>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and >>>>>>>> cataloging of accessible books. >>>>>>>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of >>>>>>>> funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge >>>>>>>> funding >>>>>>>> to disability services this process if mandated by the federal >>>>>>>> government >>>>>>>> could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and >>>>>>>> insure >>>>>>>> that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> well as the actual book itself. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> available in accessible format or loose there federal disability >>>>>>>> funding >>>>>>>> then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on >>>>>>>> BookShare. >>>>>>>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and >>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> common format that we can use across the various devices and >>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>> software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and >>>>>>>> pray >>>>>>>> that I can find an accessible version. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> create accessible material. >>>>>>>> -Kevin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of >>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>> via NLS or bookshare. >>>>>>>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or >>>>>>>>> cheap >>>>>>>>> online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes >>>>>>>>> novels >>>>>>>>> are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook >>>>>>>>> readers >>>>>>>>> are accessible. >>>>>>>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they >>>>>>>>> silenced speech? >>>>>>>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> personal example, my library has ebooks too. >>>>>>>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws >>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>> only reading the title, not the entire page! >>>>>>>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If >>>>>>>>> ebook >>>>>>>>> readers were actually accessible, then we can think about >>>>>>>>> eliminating >>>>>>>>> what you call preferential treatment. >>>>>>>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the >>>>>>>>> ebooks >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Steve, >>>>>>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>>>>>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>>>>>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning >>>>>>>>> ally >>>>>>>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>>>>>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>>>>>>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>>>>>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>>>>>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from >>>>>>>>> bookshare >>>>>>>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to >>>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>>>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Steve, >>>>>>>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>>>>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>>>>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't >>>>>>>>>> it? >>>>>>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its >>>>>>>>>> annoyances, >>>>>>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>>>>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>>>>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>>>>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>>>>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>>>>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>>>>>>>> literary braille. >>>>>>>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>>>>>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of >>>>>>>>>> course >>>>>>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and >>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>>>>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility >>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>>>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some >>>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> novel, for >>>>>>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We >>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>> access >>>>>>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream >>>>>>>>>>> titles, >>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and >>>>>>>>>>> math >>>>>>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. >>>>>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>> be that >>>>>>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in >>>>>>>>>>> textbooks. >>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally >>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>> concentrate on making >>>>>>>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final >>>>>>>>>>> product >>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> already >>>>>>>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> create >>>>>>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just >>>>>>>>>>> taking >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> same text >>>>>>>>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the >>>>>>>>>>> tools >>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>> name >>>>>>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know >>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>> sort >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. >>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>> industry >>>>>>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if >>>>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is >>>>>>>>>>> hard >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have >>>>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>>>> hope, >>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer >>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case >>>>>>>>>>> eventually. >>>>>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to >>>>>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>>>>>>>> yesterday >>>>>>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible >>>>>>>>>>> PDF's >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where >>>>>>>>>>> technology >>>>>>>>>>> goes. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too >>>>>>>>>>>> hard. >>>>>>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks >>>>>>>>>>>> premature? >>>>>>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio >>>>>>>>>>>> reader >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an >>>>>>>>>>>> ebook >>>>>>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not >>>>>>>>>>>> become >>>>>>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> bit >>>>>>>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys >>>>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving >>>>>>>>>>>> fast >>>>>>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to >>>>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to >>>>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those >>>>>>>>>>>> expensive >>>>>>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same >>>>>>>>>>>> technology >>>>>>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or >>>>>>>>>>>> coursesmart >>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to >>>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't >>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the >>>>>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that >>>>>>>>>>>>> quality >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to >>>>>>>>>>>>> produce >>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process >>>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it >>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put >>>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility >>>>>>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of >>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>>>>>>>>> textbooks >>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> hands >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a >>>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated >>>>>>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> point >>>>>>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or >>>>>>>>>>>>> RFB&D >>>>>>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll >>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your >>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker >>>>>>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out >>>>>>>>>>>>> there, >>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and >>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be >>>>>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we >>>>>>>>>>>>> use >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical >>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far >>>>>>>>>>>>> off), >>>>>>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last >>>>>>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally >>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's >>>>>>>>>>>>> library >>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every >>>>>>>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just >>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tremendous >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> library >>>>>>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy >>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bookstores >>>>>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like >>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>>> else. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already >>>>>>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> options >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>>> else >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hippocricy, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this-please >>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embossed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> away >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rambles. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trove >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> immediately >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> towards >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Josh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voices >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> students >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contrast, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> large >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> retailer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e-book >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasons. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raises, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferential >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sharply. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2001, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 93% >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regularly, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> read. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> readers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> integrated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructional >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> love a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individuals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> starting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPod >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> approaching >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extension >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> move >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relations >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Opera >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eternal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From k7uij at panix.com Wed May 25 21:52:39 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 14:52:39 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05C46E67-E322-4CC2-982E-573F5D027B2F@panix.com> They still play. We are requested now to destroy them. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 25, 2011, at 14:31, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: > All the books I download from Learning Ally have a timelimit on them and apparently expire after one year. > I assume that means they won't play after that. > -Kevin > > On May 25, 2011, at 4:22 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > >> Learning Ally > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From brice.smith319 at gmail.com Wed May 25 21:53:57 2011 From: brice.smith319 at gmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:53:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What's also not fair is paying full price for a textbook and being unable to return the material at the end of the semester like other students because your DSO ripped and scanned the book. In that case, keeping the PDF or text file is perfectly justifiable, in my opinion. By the way: one of my friends rents her textbooks online, photocopies the pages she needs, and returns the book within the return limit. Blind people are not the only ones that unfairly cheat the system. *grin* As mentioned, I would be perfectly fine with NLS or BookShare cracking down on piracy of ebooks. I delete the materials when I'm done with them anyway, and think that everyone else should too. This type of thing could never be full proof but might help alleviate the cries of unfairness on the topic. There seems to be an increasing but small minority of "elite" blind people, a lot of whom are on these lists. These people have Braille displays, Apple iPhones or n86 phones with KNFB Reader, the latest computer technology and money and/or resources from rehab or another source which sometimes makes them somewhat unconsciously disconnected from reality. This is a problem when we stop realizing that not everyone has access to all this and start taking away options for others that does more harm than good. Brice On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > wouldn't mind if NLS had a time limit on their downloadable books. But > getting hard copy is similar to the library; you got to return hard copy > books or the digital books within a month. I think the borrowing there is > similar to a sighted person borrowing from a library; only thing is NLS only > has a fraction of the library. Kirt, my schools also require proof > of purchase before they make an accessible book via the publisher sending > electronic text. I'm fine with that because sighted students have to buy > books too. I see what you say about downloading books free. I guess that > is the loop hole in digital downloads. > But if you get an old fashion CD from Learning Ally, you still have to > return it. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:02 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > Kevin, > Not a bad idea. But the thing is some kinds of textbooks (ala > calculus, chemistry, etc) that are symbol-intensive are still > problematic in electronic braille. But I guess having the choice to > read them that way isn't a bad thing. > Ashley, I hear you. Does rehab not help pay for readers? And, as I > said, I wouldn't mind if digital braille lending libraries like NLS > implimented a real way to make sure you couldn't just download a book > in braille and keep it forever-for sighted people, that usually > results in huge library fines. And of course most people can buy > paperbacks at pretty cheap prices-with Audible and Blio and the Kindle > and IOS devices (especially if and when braille access improves), we > have the ability to buy ebooks at the same prices everyone else has > to. Downloading a book for free from bookshare or learning ally is > not the same as going to the library and checking out a book because > libraries have return policies (even for ebooks and digital > audiobooks), so as to not violate copyright law. We can download a > .brf book for free, which anyone else has to pay for if they want to > keep instead of borrow. > And I have another question. I recognize the need for accessible > textbooks. My university accessibility center requires that I first > purchase any book before they can make it accessible, which is > perfectly reasonable-other students, after all, have to buy their > textbooks if they want to own them. So why on earth can we > permanently get college textbooks for _free_, which we can keep for as > long as we like...in effect, we're buying books without paying for > them. Were I a book publisher, I'd probably be a little bit ticked > about that. I'm all for accessibility, but shouldn't we have to pay > for our books if we want to keep them, just like everyone else has to? > How on earth is this fair? > > On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> Kirt, >> >> Well, I tried to cover this before but perhaps didn't do it well enough. >> Saying that the availability of novels is probably fairly straight-forward >> is not the same >> as saying that we already have access to them. In some cases we do, >> through >> BLIO, for example. However, I still believe that discarding the old >> infrastructures that have been built up over many years is a bit premature >> until we get a better sense of where electronic texts and their >> accessability is truly >> going. I don't doubt the commitment of BLIO to accessibility, but I do >> think that we can't say at this point how well the general market will >> support BLIO and >> that's important for it to work. It will take some time for many of us to >> get used to reading with a synthesized voice, even if it is pretty good. >> There are also >> many for whom technology is still a challenge. These things will probably >> change over time, but they are still true barriers today and will be so >> for >> a while yet. >> >> Electronic texts probably will have an impact on BookShare over time. >> Also, >> we are about the only organization of blind people who ever questions >> whether >> we need a given service, so even if we were to all agree that it is time >> to >> abandon BookShare and buy e-texts, there will be others who wil oppose >> that. >> >> Still, my contention is simply that we need to see better how the >> electronic >> text market matures and how accessibility fairs before advocating big >> changes in >> how we get books. Examining whether we are receiving preferential >> treatment >> is always a good thing to do in my opinion, and I hope we're honest enough >> with ourselves to continue this kind of self-examination. At the same >> time, >> we have to be careful to not trade a service we have for promises of what >> will be, >> and we also need to be careful not to sell out those of us who are less >> technical or on lower incomes. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Wed, 25 May 2011 13:24:50 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >>>Steve, >>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>>novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>>still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >>>for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>>delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>>lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>>novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>>honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>>or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >>>at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>> Warmly, >>>Kirt >> >>>On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Steve, >>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? >>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>> literary braille. >>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille >>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>> Warmly, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>> Kirt, >>>>> >>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some >>>>> things >>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a >>>>> novel, for >>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>>>> access >>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, >>>>> so >>>>> I >>>>> am >>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>> >>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may >>>>> not >>>>> be that >>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. >>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>>>> concentrate on making >>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final >>>>> product >>>>> by >>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is >>>>> already >>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>>>> create >>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking >>>>> the >>>>> same text >>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>> >>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you >>>>> name >>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what >>>>> sort >>>>> of >>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>>>> industry >>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some >>>>> new >>>>> way >>>>> of >>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard >>>>> to >>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some >>>>> hope, >>>>> but >>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need >>>>> on >>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually. >>>>> In >>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make >>>>> their >>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>> yesterday >>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>>>> would >>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's >>>>> in >>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology >>>>> goes. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Steve and Mike, >>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>>>But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>>>Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>>>>>working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>>>reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>>>>more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit >>>>>>silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>>>more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>>>>towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>>electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>>>>>bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>>>>>braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>>>setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or >>>>>>(I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the >>>>>>same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>>>>>money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>>least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>Kirt >>>>> >>>>>>On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>>> BookShare >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of >>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more >>>>>>> books >>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility >>>>>>> first >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of >>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>>> textbooks >>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>>>> hands >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your >>>>>>> notetaker >>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too >>>>>>> long >>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to >>>>>>> get >>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library >>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores >>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to >>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone >>>>>>>> else. >>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people >>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they >>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed >>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't >>>>>>>>> mean >>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the >>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. >>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, >>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, >>>>>>>>>> fundamental >>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or >>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at >>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that >>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the >>>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and >>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the >>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as >>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should >>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If >>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at >>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now >>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability >>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats >>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No >>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always >>>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen >>>>>>>>>>> sharply. >>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the >>>>>>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the >>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. >>>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact >>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as >>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who >>>>>>>>>>> regularly, >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in >>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the >>>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving >>>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as >>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we >>>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, >>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting >>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or >>>>>>>>>>> entertaining >>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks >>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > -- Brice Smith North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com From kfjelsted at gmail.com Wed May 25 21:59:19 2011 From: kfjelsted at gmail.com (Kevin Fjelsted) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:59:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> <1E335CBD-E492-4372-BECF-4B34FCAB0A24@panix.com> Message-ID: I have that exact situation going on now for an advanced Discrete Structures math and logic book that I need for the fall. THe Braille portion definitely needs to be handled with Nemeth and all the logic symbols are available in Nemeth. Truth tables can certainly be laid out in Braille. I agree that raises line drawings needs to be formatted but I have seen this done certainly and BookShare can store this kind of content because they support HTML Daisy and BRF. With encapsulated raised line paper and one of this toner based printers that works on heat these drawings can actual be stored as word docs or any format that will print so probably even PDF. -Kevin On May 25, 2011, at 4:21 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Kevin, > There are some textbooks for which bookshare isn't all that > practical. For instance, I took a logic class last semester where > they used all sorts of symbols that aren't in any braille code...I > kind of had to make my own personal logic-braille. (which I mostly > used on paper because there just weren't symbols in the braille code > for what I needed) Bookshare couldn't handle those kinds of books. >> From my understanding, Mike was talking about the technical aspect > more than the legal aspect. (i.e, rendering books like my logic book > accessible in electronic braille). Mike, am I understanding you > wrong? > Best, > Kirt > > On 5/25/11, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >> I actually don't think it would take any new laws. >> I think the department of education could write the regulations for this >> based on existing law. >> The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper >> regulations. >> The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes from the >> federal government. >> So if the department of education and the other agencies combined there >> efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to >> provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that they >> need to convert. >> The department of education doesn't need to build another database or >> storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare. >> -Kevin >> >> >> On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >> >>> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical >>> materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such strictures >>> on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract. >>> >>> Mike Freeman >>> sent from my iPhone >>> >>> >>> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>> >>>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be to >>>> work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any University >>>> or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability >>>> services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS >>>> department creates to BookShare. >>>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books would >>>> be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. >>>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and >>>> cataloging of accessible books. >>>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of >>>> funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge funding >>>> to disability services this process if mandated by the federal government >>>> could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and insure >>>> that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as >>>> well as the actual book itself. >>>> >>>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that are >>>> available in accessible format or loose there federal disability funding >>>> then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on BookShare. >>>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and provide a >>>> common format that we can use across the various devices and accessible >>>> software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray >>>> that I can find an accessible version. >>>> >>>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there is >>>> not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to >>>> create accessible material. >>>> -Kevin >>>> >>>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: >>>> >>>>> Kirt, >>>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of books >>>>> via NLS or bookshare. >>>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or cheap >>>>> online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes novels >>>>> are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook readers >>>>> are accessible. >>>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they >>>>> silenced speech? >>>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And as a >>>>> personal example, my library has ebooks too. >>>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws was >>>>> only reading the title, not the entire page! >>>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If ebook >>>>> readers were actually accessible, then we can think about eliminating >>>>> what you call preferential treatment. >>>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks and >>>>> myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>> Bookshare >>>>> >>>>> Steve, >>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >>>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>>>> Warmly, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>> Steve, >>>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? >>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >>>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >>>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>>>> literary braille. >>>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille >>>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some >>>>>>> things >>>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a >>>>>>> novel, for >>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>>>>>> access >>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> am >>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> be that >>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. >>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>>>>>> concentrate on making >>>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final >>>>>>> product >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is >>>>>>> already >>>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>>>>>> create >>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> same text >>>>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you >>>>>>> name >>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what >>>>>>> sort >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>>>>>> industry >>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some >>>>>>> new >>>>>>> way >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some >>>>>>> hope, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case >>>>>>> eventually. >>>>>>> In >>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>>>> yesterday >>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible >>>>>>> PDF's >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology >>>>>>> goes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a >>>>>>>> bit >>>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>>>>> BookShare >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility >>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of >>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>>>>> textbooks >>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>>>>>> hands >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a >>>>>>>>> dedicated >>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or >>>>>>>>> RFB&D >>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be >>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your >>>>>>>>> notetaker >>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too >>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far >>>>>>>>> off), >>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to >>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library >>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a >>>>>>>>>> library >>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille >>>>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores >>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to >>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone >>>>>>>>>> else. >>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people >>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they >>>>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, >>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed >>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't >>>>>>>>>>> mean >>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download >>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the >>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If >>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away >>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. >>>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, >>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire >>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, >>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental >>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of >>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at >>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I >>>>>>>>>>>> immediately >>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that >>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the >>>>>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> future? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and >>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the >>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display >>>>>>>>>>>>> or a >>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those >>>>>>>>>>>>> voices >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as >>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter >>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have >>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why >>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. >>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at >>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to >>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now >>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability >>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume >>>>>>>>>>>>> large >>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats >>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No >>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always >>>>>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen >>>>>>>>>>>>> sharply. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the >>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the >>>>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact >>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as >>>>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who >>>>>>>>>>>>> regularly, >>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of >>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in >>>>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the >>>>>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving >>>>>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as >>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would >>>>>>>>>>>>> love a >>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we >>>>>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, >>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting >>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users >>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or >>>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining >>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet >>>>>>>>>>>>> balks >>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves >>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of >>>>>>>>>>> Guiding >>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com From kfjelsted at gmail.com Wed May 25 22:01:24 2011 From: kfjelsted at gmail.com (Kevin Fjelsted) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:01:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: <33CC1C522D0C4B499AD7EEE45423FEA9@OwnerPC> References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> <33CC1C522D0C4B499AD7EEE45423FEA9@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <6345360D-6954-4FF2-9F69-FCC0DD0C8728@gmail.com> Does Access text store the content as well? Can we access it as individuals and search and download the content? -Kevin On May 25, 2011, at 4:24 PM, wrote: > Access text. From k7uij at panix.com Wed May 25 22:01:34 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:01:34 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> <1E335CBD-E492-4372-BECF-4B34FCAB0A24@panix.com> Message-ID: Kirt: You understood me correctly. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 25, 2011, at 14:21, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Kevin, > There are some textbooks for which bookshare isn't all that > practical. For instance, I took a logic class last semester where > they used all sorts of symbols that aren't in any braille code...I > kind of had to make my own personal logic-braille. (which I mostly > used on paper because there just weren't symbols in the braille code > for what I needed) Bookshare couldn't handle those kinds of books. >> From my understanding, Mike was talking about the technical aspect > more than the legal aspect. (i.e, rendering books like my logic book > accessible in electronic braille). Mike, am I understanding you > wrong? > Best, > Kirt > > On 5/25/11, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >> I actually don't think it would take any new laws. >> I think the department of education could write the regulations for this >> based on existing law. >> The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper >> regulations. >> The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes from the >> federal government. >> So if the department of education and the other agencies combined there >> efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to >> provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that they >> need to convert. >> The department of education doesn't need to build another database or >> storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare. >> -Kevin >> >> >> On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >> >>> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical >>> materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such strictures >>> on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract. >>> >>> Mike Freeman >>> sent from my iPhone >>> >>> >>> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>> >>>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be to >>>> work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any University >>>> or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability >>>> services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS >>>> department creates to BookShare. >>>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books would >>>> be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. >>>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and >>>> cataloging of accessible books. >>>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of >>>> funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge funding >>>> to disability services this process if mandated by the federal government >>>> could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and insure >>>> that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as >>>> well as the actual book itself. >>>> >>>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that are >>>> available in accessible format or loose there federal disability funding >>>> then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on BookShare. >>>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and provide a >>>> common format that we can use across the various devices and accessible >>>> software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray >>>> that I can find an accessible version. >>>> >>>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there is >>>> not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to >>>> create accessible material. >>>> -Kevin >>>> >>>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: >>>> >>>>> Kirt, >>>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of books >>>>> via NLS or bookshare. >>>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or cheap >>>>> online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes novels >>>>> are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook readers >>>>> are accessible. >>>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they >>>>> silenced speech? >>>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And as a >>>>> personal example, my library has ebooks too. >>>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws was >>>>> only reading the title, not the entire page! >>>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If ebook >>>>> readers were actually accessible, then we can think about eliminating >>>>> what you call preferential treatment. >>>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks and >>>>> myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>> Bookshare >>>>> >>>>> Steve, >>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >>>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>>>> Warmly, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>> Steve, >>>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? >>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >>>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >>>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>>>> literary braille. >>>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille >>>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some >>>>>>> things >>>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a >>>>>>> novel, for >>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>>>>>> access >>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> am >>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> be that >>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. >>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>>>>>> concentrate on making >>>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final >>>>>>> product >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is >>>>>>> already >>>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>>>>>> create >>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> same text >>>>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you >>>>>>> name >>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what >>>>>>> sort >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>>>>>> industry >>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some >>>>>>> new >>>>>>> way >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some >>>>>>> hope, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case >>>>>>> eventually. >>>>>>> In >>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>>>> yesterday >>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible >>>>>>> PDF's >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology >>>>>>> goes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a >>>>>>>> bit >>>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>>>>> BookShare >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility >>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of >>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>>>>> textbooks >>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>>>>>> hands >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a >>>>>>>>> dedicated >>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or >>>>>>>>> RFB&D >>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be >>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your >>>>>>>>> notetaker >>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too >>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far >>>>>>>>> off), >>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to >>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library >>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a >>>>>>>>>> library >>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille >>>>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores >>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to >>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone >>>>>>>>>> else. >>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people >>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they >>>>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, >>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed >>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't >>>>>>>>>>> mean >>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download >>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the >>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If >>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away >>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. >>>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, >>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire >>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, >>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental >>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of >>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at >>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I >>>>>>>>>>>> immediately >>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that >>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the >>>>>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> future? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and >>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the >>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display >>>>>>>>>>>>> or a >>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those >>>>>>>>>>>>> voices >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as >>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter >>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have >>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why >>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. >>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at >>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to >>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now >>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability >>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume >>>>>>>>>>>>> large >>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats >>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No >>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always >>>>>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen >>>>>>>>>>>>> sharply. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the >>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the >>>>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact >>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as >>>>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who >>>>>>>>>>>>> regularly, >>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of >>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in >>>>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the >>>>>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving >>>>>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as >>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would >>>>>>>>>>>>> love a >>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we >>>>>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, >>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting >>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users >>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or >>>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining >>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet >>>>>>>>>>>>> balks >>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves >>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of >>>>>>>>>>> Guiding >>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From k7uij at panix.com Wed May 25 22:07:05 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:07:05 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] reply to Learning Ally question from Josh In-Reply-To: <4ddd612e.1116e70a.5ee6.0083@mx.google.com> References: <4ddd612e.1116e70a.5ee6.0083@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <97B94DAD-6207-4B27-8B77-1EFACFCDB5A8@panix.com> Chris: Why not try both addresses and see what happens? Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 25, 2011, at 13:05, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Annemarie, > > Just so you know, your email address in the "sent" box was aec723 at msn.com. But the email you gave us in the body of the email was aec732 at gmail.com. Which one should someone email? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Annemarie Cooke To: Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 14:57:12 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] reply to Learning Ally question from Josh > > > Thanks, Mike; you beat me to the punch but you're correct. Lying on the application form can result in permanent revocation of Learning Ally membership privileges. > See you in Orlando! > And...Josh, f you have additional questions, you or anyone can message me off-list at: aec732 at gmail.com > Many thanks, > Annemarie Cooke > Learning Ally consultant > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed May 25 22:07:17 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:07:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: <6345360D-6954-4FF2-9F69-FCC0DD0C8728@gmail.com> References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC><25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com><33CC1C522D0C4B499AD7EEE45423FEA9@OwnerPC> <6345360D-6954-4FF2-9F69-FCC0DD0C8728@gmail.com> Message-ID: <149F6CA01B7E4B7BA63CB9983D28BAD1@OwnerPC> No, you have to go through DSS. -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Fjelsted Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:01 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Does Access text store the content as well? Can we access it as individuals and search and download the content? -Kevin On May 25, 2011, at 4:24 PM, wrote: > Access text. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kfjelsted at gmail.com Wed May 25 22:08:12 2011 From: kfjelsted at gmail.com (Kevin Fjelsted) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:08:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> <1E335CBD-E492-4372-BECF-4B34FCAB0A24@panix.com> Message-ID: <0EF5B589-0F0F-4A6F-B985-FA183E3C6F6E@gmail.com> Very true the conversion isn't there yet but we have all these full-time document conversion staff supplemented by part-time students running around working for various disability services departments at the institutions already doing the doc prep and the graphics conversion. So if it is done once it should be stored centrally and available to all of us. -Kevin On May 25, 2011, at 4:28 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > My point is that the technology to require conversion in the case of some technical materials by the publishers just isn't there yet. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 25, 2011, at 14:13, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: > >> I actually don't think it would take any new laws. >> I think the department of education could write the regulations for this based on existing law. >> The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper regulations. >> The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes from the federal government. >> So if the department of education and the other agencies combined there efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that they need to convert. >> The department of education doesn't need to build another database or storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare. >> -Kevin >> >> >> On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >> >>> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such strictures on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract. >>> >>> Mike Freeman >>> sent from my iPhone >>> >>> >>> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>> >>>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be to work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any University or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS department creates to BookShare. >>>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books would be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. >>>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and cataloging of accessible books. >>>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge funding to disability services this process if mandated by the federal government could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and insure that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as well as the actual book itself. >>>> >>>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that are available in accessible format or loose there federal disability funding then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on BookShare. >>>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and provide a common format that we can use across the various devices and accessible software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray that I can find an accessible version. >>>> >>>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there is not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to create accessible material. >>>> -Kevin >>>> >>>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: >>>> >>>>> Kirt, >>>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of books via NLS or bookshare. >>>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or cheap online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes novels are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook readers are accessible. >>>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they silenced speech? >>>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And as a personal example, my library has ebooks too. >>>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws was only reading the title, not the entire page! >>>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If ebook readers were actually accessible, then we can think about eliminating what you call preferential treatment. >>>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks and myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >>>>> >>>>> Steve, >>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >>>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>>>> Warmly, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>> Steve, >>>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? >>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >>>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >>>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>>>> literary braille. >>>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille >>>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some things >>>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a >>>>>>> novel, for >>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>>>>>> access >>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, so >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> am >>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> be that >>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. >>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>>>>>> concentrate on making >>>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final product >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is >>>>>>> already >>>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>>>>>> create >>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking the >>>>>>> same text >>>>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you >>>>>>> name >>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what sort >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>>>>>> industry >>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some new >>>>>>> way >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard to >>>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some >>>>>>> hope, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need on >>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually. >>>>>>> In >>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>>>> yesterday >>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology goes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit >>>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or >>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the >>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with BookShare >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of >>>>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more >>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first >>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible >>>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks >>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>>>>>> hands >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or >>>>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books >>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should >>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If >>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at >>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, >>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we >>>>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks >>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed May 25 22:13:02 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:13:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HBrice, Awesome points and I thought the same thing. It seems like there is this belief that well if I got the technology and can use it, then everyone can do it. Not so. Rehab only gets you technology as a student. A VR stream is over $300 and some can't afford that even. A notetaker is about 4 k or 6 k. And folks, not everyone wants an Iphone or I Touch. Brice said "As mentioned, I would be perfectly fine with NLS or BookShare cracking down on piracy of ebooks. I delete the materials when I'm done with them anyway, and think that everyone else should too. This type of thing could never be full proof but might help alleviate the cries of unfairness on the topic." Yes, I do too; I delete when I'm done, although I'll admit some real good books, I have kept. Sighted students have options to rent books and as Brice said if you buy the book you cannot sell it back if your DSS scanned it. So those two things are unfair to us. I don't see a win-win solution. I want to see ebook readers accessible, and once they are and are wide spread we may see the slow, I mean slow, decline of bookshare. But I predict that NLS will stay as long as traditional libraries stay. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Brice Smith Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:53 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare What's also not fair is paying full price for a textbook and being unable to return the material at the end of the semester like other students because your DSO ripped and scanned the book. In that case, keeping the PDF or text file is perfectly justifiable, in my opinion. By the way: one of my friends rents her textbooks online, photocopies the pages she needs, and returns the book within the return limit. Blind people are not the only ones that unfairly cheat the system. *grin* As mentioned, I would be perfectly fine with NLS or BookShare cracking down on piracy of ebooks. I delete the materials when I'm done with them anyway, and think that everyone else should too. This type of thing could never be full proof but might help alleviate the cries of unfairness on the topic. There seems to be an increasing but small minority of "elite" blind people, a lot of whom are on these lists. These people have Braille displays, Apple iPhones or n86 phones with KNFB Reader, the latest computer technology and money and/or resources from rehab or another source which sometimes makes them somewhat unconsciously disconnected from reality. This is a problem when we stop realizing that not everyone has access to all this and start taking away options for others that does more harm than good. Brice On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > wouldn't mind if NLS had a time limit on their downloadable books. But > getting hard copy is similar to the library; you got to return hard copy > books or the digital books within a month. I think the borrowing there is > similar to a sighted person borrowing from a library; only thing is NLS > only > has a fraction of the library. Kirt, my schools also require proof > of purchase before they make an accessible book via the publisher sending > electronic text. I'm fine with that because sighted students have to buy > books too. I see what you say about downloading books free. I guess that > is the loop hole in digital downloads. > But if you get an old fashion CD from Learning Ally, you still have to > return it. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:02 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > Kevin, > Not a bad idea. But the thing is some kinds of textbooks (ala > calculus, chemistry, etc) that are symbol-intensive are still > problematic in electronic braille. But I guess having the choice to > read them that way isn't a bad thing. > Ashley, I hear you. Does rehab not help pay for readers? And, as I > said, I wouldn't mind if digital braille lending libraries like NLS > implimented a real way to make sure you couldn't just download a book > in braille and keep it forever-for sighted people, that usually > results in huge library fines. And of course most people can buy > paperbacks at pretty cheap prices-with Audible and Blio and the Kindle > and IOS devices (especially if and when braille access improves), we > have the ability to buy ebooks at the same prices everyone else has > to. Downloading a book for free from bookshare or learning ally is > not the same as going to the library and checking out a book because > libraries have return policies (even for ebooks and digital > audiobooks), so as to not violate copyright law. We can download a > .brf book for free, which anyone else has to pay for if they want to > keep instead of borrow. > And I have another question. I recognize the need for accessible > textbooks. My university accessibility center requires that I first > purchase any book before they can make it accessible, which is > perfectly reasonable-other students, after all, have to buy their > textbooks if they want to own them. So why on earth can we > permanently get college textbooks for _free_, which we can keep for as > long as we like...in effect, we're buying books without paying for > them. Were I a book publisher, I'd probably be a little bit ticked > about that. I'm all for accessibility, but shouldn't we have to pay > for our books if we want to keep them, just like everyone else has to? > How on earth is this fair? > > On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> Kirt, >> >> Well, I tried to cover this before but perhaps didn't do it well enough. >> Saying that the availability of novels is probably fairly >> straight-forward >> is not the same >> as saying that we already have access to them. In some cases we do, >> through >> BLIO, for example. However, I still believe that discarding the old >> infrastructures that have been built up over many years is a bit >> premature >> until we get a better sense of where electronic texts and their >> accessability is truly >> going. I don't doubt the commitment of BLIO to accessibility, but I do >> think that we can't say at this point how well the general market will >> support BLIO and >> that's important for it to work. It will take some time for many of us >> to >> get used to reading with a synthesized voice, even if it is pretty good. >> There are also >> many for whom technology is still a challenge. These things will >> probably >> change over time, but they are still true barriers today and will be so >> for >> a while yet. >> >> Electronic texts probably will have an impact on BookShare over time. >> Also, >> we are about the only organization of blind people who ever questions >> whether >> we need a given service, so even if we were to all agree that it is time >> to >> abandon BookShare and buy e-texts, there will be others who wil oppose >> that. >> >> Still, my contention is simply that we need to see better how the >> electronic >> text market matures and how accessibility fairs before advocating big >> changes in >> how we get books. Examining whether we are receiving preferential >> treatment >> is always a good thing to do in my opinion, and I hope we're honest >> enough >> with ourselves to continue this kind of self-examination. At the same >> time, >> we have to be careful to not trade a service we have for promises of what >> will be, >> and we also need to be careful not to sell out those of us who are less >> technical or on lower incomes. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Wed, 25 May 2011 13:24:50 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >>>Steve, >>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>>novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>>still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >>>for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>>delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>>lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>>novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>>honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>>or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >>>at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>> Warmly, >>>Kirt >> >>>On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Steve, >>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? >>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>> literary braille. >>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille >>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>> Warmly, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>> Kirt, >>>>> >>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some >>>>> things >>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a >>>>> novel, for >>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>>>> access >>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, >>>>> so >>>>> I >>>>> am >>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>> >>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may >>>>> not >>>>> be that >>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. >>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>>>> concentrate on making >>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final >>>>> product >>>>> by >>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is >>>>> already >>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>>>> create >>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking >>>>> the >>>>> same text >>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>> >>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you >>>>> name >>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what >>>>> sort >>>>> of >>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>>>> industry >>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some >>>>> new >>>>> way >>>>> of >>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard >>>>> to >>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some >>>>> hope, >>>>> but >>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need >>>>> on >>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case >>>>> eventually. >>>>> In >>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make >>>>> their >>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>> yesterday >>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>>>> would >>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible >>>>> PDF's >>>>> in >>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology >>>>> goes. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Steve and Mike, >>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>>>But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>>>Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>>>>>working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>>>reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>>>>more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit >>>>>>silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>>>more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>>>>towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>>electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>>>>>bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>>>>>braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>>>setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or >>>>>>(I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the >>>>>>same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>>>>>money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>>least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>Kirt >>>>> >>>>>>On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>>> BookShare >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> books >>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility >>>>>>> first >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of >>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>>> textbooks >>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>>>> hands >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a >>>>>>> dedicated >>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or >>>>>>> RFB&D >>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be >>>>>>> too >>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your >>>>>>> notetaker >>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too >>>>>>> long >>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far >>>>>>> off), >>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to >>>>>>> get >>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library >>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a >>>>>>>> library >>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille >>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores >>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to >>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone >>>>>>>> else. >>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people >>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they >>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed >>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't >>>>>>>>> mean >>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download >>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the >>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If >>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. >>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, >>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire >>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, >>>>>>>>>> fundamental >>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of >>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at >>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I >>>>>>>>>> immediately >>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that >>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the >>>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the >>>>>>>>>>> future? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and >>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the >>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those >>>>>>>>>>> voices >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as >>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have >>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why >>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. >>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at >>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to >>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now >>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability >>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume >>>>>>>>>>> large >>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats >>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No >>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always >>>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen >>>>>>>>>>> sharply. >>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the >>>>>>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the >>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. >>>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact >>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as >>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who >>>>>>>>>>> regularly, >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. >>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of >>>>>>>>>>> entertainment >>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in >>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the >>>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving >>>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as >>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would >>>>>>>>>>> love >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we >>>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, >>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting >>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users >>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or >>>>>>>>>>> entertaining >>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet >>>>>>>>>>> balks >>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves >>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in >>>>>>>>> Opera >>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of >>>>>>>>> Guiding >>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > -- Brice Smith North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed May 25 22:15:08 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:15:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC><25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com><1E335CBD-E492-4372-BECF-4B34FCAB0A24@panix.com> Message-ID: <5CB638EFEC8844BBB25D05DEA32AB524@OwnerPC> Kirt, Nls does not fine you. But at least what I seen they mail you notices to return your overdue braille or talking books til you return them. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Ashley, You're supposed to return a cd from learning ally-I think I still have some old ones from years ago hiding in my room somewhere, and noone's so much as sent me a notice so I'm not sure how much that's actually enforced. NLS enforces that policy pretty good-except there aren't fines or anything for lost books...they just put it in as "lost" in their files and that's the end of that. Don't ask me how I know...suffice it to say that, were I a user of regular libraries, I'd have a lot less money to play with. *grin* So no, the return policies aren't exactly the same, at least as they're enforced in real life. Oh-and for the record, my days of losing library books ended a long time ago. Mostly. Best, Kirt On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Kevin, > There are some textbooks for which bookshare isn't all that > practical. For instance, I took a logic class last semester where > they used all sorts of symbols that aren't in any braille code...I > kind of had to make my own personal logic-braille. (which I mostly > used on paper because there just weren't symbols in the braille code > for what I needed) Bookshare couldn't handle those kinds of books. > From my understanding, Mike was talking about the technical aspect > more than the legal aspect. (i.e, rendering books like my logic book > accessible in electronic braille). Mike, am I understanding you > wrong? > Best, > Kirt > > On 5/25/11, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >> I actually don't think it would take any new laws. >> I think the department of education could write the regulations for this >> based on existing law. >> The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper >> regulations. >> The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes from >> the >> federal government. >> So if the department of education and the other agencies combined there >> efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to >> provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that >> they >> need to convert. >> The department of education doesn't need to build another database or >> storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare. >> -Kevin >> >> >> On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >> >>> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical >>> materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such >>> strictures >>> on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract. >>> >>> Mike Freeman >>> sent from my iPhone >>> >>> >>> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>> >>>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be to >>>> work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any >>>> University >>>> or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability >>>> services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS >>>> department creates to BookShare. >>>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books would >>>> be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. >>>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and >>>> cataloging of accessible books. >>>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of >>>> funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge >>>> funding >>>> to disability services this process if mandated by the federal >>>> government >>>> could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and insure >>>> that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as >>>> well as the actual book itself. >>>> >>>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that are >>>> available in accessible format or loose there federal disability >>>> funding >>>> then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on BookShare. >>>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and provide >>>> a >>>> common format that we can use across the various devices and accessible >>>> software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray >>>> that I can find an accessible version. >>>> >>>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there is >>>> not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to >>>> create accessible material. >>>> -Kevin >>>> >>>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: >>>> >>>>> Kirt, >>>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of >>>>> books >>>>> via NLS or bookshare. >>>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or >>>>> cheap >>>>> online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes >>>>> novels >>>>> are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook readers >>>>> are accessible. >>>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they >>>>> silenced speech? >>>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And as >>>>> a >>>>> personal example, my library has ebooks too. >>>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws was >>>>> only reading the title, not the entire page! >>>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If ebook >>>>> readers were actually accessible, then we can think about eliminating >>>>> what you call preferential treatment. >>>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks >>>>> and >>>>> myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>> Bookshare >>>>> >>>>> Steve, >>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >>>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>>>> Warmly, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>> Steve, >>>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't >>>>>> it? >>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >>>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >>>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>>>> literary braille. >>>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and >>>>>> braille >>>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some >>>>>>> things >>>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> novel, for >>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>>>>>> access >>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream >>>>>>> titles, >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> am >>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This >>>>>>> may >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> be that >>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in >>>>>>> textbooks. >>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>>>>>> concentrate on making >>>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final >>>>>>> product >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> already >>>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>>>>>> create >>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> same text >>>>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> name >>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what >>>>>>> sort >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>>>>>> industry >>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some >>>>>>> new >>>>>>> way >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is >>>>>>> hard >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have >>>>>>> some >>>>>>> hope, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer >>>>>>> need >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case >>>>>>> eventually. >>>>>>> In >>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to >>>>>>> make >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>>>> yesterday >>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible >>>>>>> PDF's >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology >>>>>>> goes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a >>>>>>>> bit >>>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those >>>>>>>> expensive >>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>>>>> BookShare >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility >>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of >>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>>>>> textbooks >>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>>>>>> hands >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a >>>>>>>>> dedicated >>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or >>>>>>>>> RFB&D >>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be >>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your >>>>>>>>> notetaker >>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too >>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we >>>>>>>>> use >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far >>>>>>>>> off), >>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to >>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library >>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just >>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read >>>>>>>>>> mainstream >>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a >>>>>>>>>> library >>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille >>>>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar >>>>>>>>>> bookstores >>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone >>>>>>>>>> else. >>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already >>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have >>>>>>>>>> options >>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone >>>>>>>>>> else >>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted >>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or >>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on >>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. >>>>>>>>>>> No, >>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just >>>>>>>>>>> embossed >>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't >>>>>>>>>>> mean >>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download >>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the >>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If >>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away >>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. >>>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, >>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my >>>>>>>>>>> rambles. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to >>>>>>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire >>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, >>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental >>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of >>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at >>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I >>>>>>>>>>>> immediately >>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that >>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and >>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved >>>>>>>>>>>> towards >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and >>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the >>>>>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> future? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and >>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>> books. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the >>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display >>>>>>>>>>>>> or a >>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those >>>>>>>>>>>>> voices >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into >>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as >>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks >>>>>>>>>>>>> app >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter >>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have >>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why >>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. >>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of >>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look >>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to >>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now >>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and >>>>>>>>>>>>> students >>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the >>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability >>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump >>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>>> devices, >>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume >>>>>>>>>>>>> large >>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a >>>>>>>>>>>>> cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it >>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats >>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons >>>>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. >>>>>>>>>>>>> No >>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always >>>>>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or >>>>>>>>>>>>> preferential >>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen >>>>>>>>>>>>> sharply. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the >>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, >>>>>>>>>>>>> 93% >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the >>>>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> past. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound >>>>>>>>>>>>> impact >>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you >>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as >>>>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who >>>>>>>>>>>>> regularly, >>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of >>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in >>>>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the >>>>>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving >>>>>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the >>>>>>>>>>>>> integrated >>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like >>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a >>>>>>>>>>>>> instructional >>>>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much >>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in >>>>>>>>>>>>> similar >>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would >>>>>>>>>>>>> love a >>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we >>>>>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals >>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less >>>>>>>>>>>>> capable >>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books >>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, >>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>> starting >>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the >>>>>>>>>>>>> iPod >>>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users >>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or >>>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining >>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies >>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet >>>>>>>>>>>>> balks >>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of >>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by >>>>>>>>>>>>> extension >>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves >>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to >>>>>>>>>>>>> move >>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public >>>>>>>>>>>> Relations >>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in >>>>>>>>>>> Opera >>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of >>>>>>>>>>> Guiding >>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kfjelsted at gmail.com Wed May 25 22:27:15 2011 From: kfjelsted at gmail.com (Kevin Fjelsted) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:27:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: <149F6CA01B7E4B7BA63CB9983D28BAD1@OwnerPC> References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC><25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com><33CC1C522D0C4B499AD7EEE45423FEA9@OwnerPC> <6345360D-6954-4FF2-9F69-FCC0DD0C8728@gmail.com> <149F6CA01B7E4B7BA63CB9983D28BAD1@OwnerPC> Message-ID: I think that defeats the purpose of availability and accessible. Why would I want to go to a DS organization if I didn't have to? It is bad enough that I need to go to them if I can't find another way to get the material but if it is already prepared I shouldn't have to go to them at all. SO what ever source catalogs the titles and content should be available to us. That is why BookShare which is already setup could do that very quickly. -Kevin :) On May 25, 2011, at 5:07 PM, wrote: > No, you have to go through DSS. > > -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Fjelsted > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:01 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > Does Access text store the content as well? > Can we access it as individuals and search and download the content? > > -Kevin > On May 25, 2011, at 4:24 PM, wrote: > >> Access text. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed May 25 22:36:57 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:36:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: <44FDFE0A-2D6D-44BA-86AC-DEA24E8B8DE8@gmail.com> <0049C6B117E84924A916493ACAA37A18@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <78C8C1FF-3D07-4ADD-B90A-946BFAA943E3@gmail.com> Kirt: Amen! We have to watch out for the phylosofical trap here--at one time we were second class, now we have to realize that we either join the sighted as first class citizens, or not, but if we do its equal responsibility. I like Hard braille stuff myself--I couldn't see myself reading my Chemistry, or Geometry book on the BN. However, I do think bookshare will fade simply because it'll be replaced by mainstream sources. Its the rule of supply and demand--when there is more supply, there is less demand. In this case, now that more mainstream channels are opening up to us, Bookshare and digital services like it will become irrelevant. On May 24, 2011, at 11:39 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > To all, > First off, before I get roasted for disagreeing with you guys, I > want to say that braille is absolutely critical. My biggest regret > about my education so far (aside from my terrible habbit to > procrastinate stuff), is that I've started using braille less and less > and audio more and more. I really think it's damaged my learning and > put me at a disadvantage and, while I'm still a great braille reader, > I don't use it much as I ought to. That said, braille has helped me > with spelling, grammar, imagination, and learning through reading > rather than listening. I'm going to start relying on it more again > and I guarantee my writing and reading comprehention will go from good > to amazing-it's happened before and, so help me, I'm going to get back > what I've lost by relegating braille to a back seat behind my > computer. > That being said, braille access to books from mainstream sources is > increasing at a tremendous rate. I can use my apex as a braille > display on my ITouch to read books I purchase via Ibooks. I'm going > to make the prediction that, at some point within the next several > years, using a notetaker or a braille display to read Kindel books > will be practical-it's just a guess, but I'd be surprised if five > years go by and I'm wrong. With KNFB developing the BLIO reader, I > have no doubt support for braille displays will be integrated before > too long. Reading books in mainstream formats on a braille display is > already doable, braille and I think it will only expand. The way I > see it, the ease of reading ebooks on a braille display, as well as > the number of formats we'll be able to read on a braille display, will > only increase. > Now to address the philosophical point this article brings up. I > totally agree with the author here. If we want to be treated as > equals, we have to understand we need to demand equal responsibilities > along with equal rights. I don't see public libraries going away, > lots of people like their hardcopy books. Therefore I don't see NLS > going away as a lender of paper braille books. I still like reading > paper braille from time to time and there are plenty of blind people > who aren't very computer literate. People still like buying print > hardcovers and paperbooks; in that same vain, I don't see the National > Braille Press going away. But sighted people don't get free ebooks, > why should we? It used to be that we needed them because they were > the only ebooks we could read with a braille display, not so anymore. > If we're going to be true to our philosophy as Federationists, it's > not fair for us to want preferential treatment here. Do we really > mean it when we say we want to be equal citizens? If we do, it's high > time we start paying an equal price, especially since it's not that > hard to read ebooks on a braille display, if we know what we're doing, > and it's only going to get easier as programs such as the Blio and > Kindle improve their access. I say we'll only be treated like > everyone else when we realize that equality isn't an extra handout, it > isn't just a change in society's attitudes towards us, but it's mostly > an acceptence of the responsibilities that come with first-class > citizenship! And getting ebooks for free or at a very steap discount, > while everyone else has to pay, is definitely not an equal > responsibility. Who's with me? > All the best, > Kirt > > On 5/24/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Hi Kerry, >> Interesting question. Yes we do have more access to mainstream books through >> comericial audio like audible.com and Random House has recorded books and >> Amozon has many recorded books too. >> That said I do not see NLS going away for a long time. As others said, >> there is still a place for a hard copy braille book, despite technology. >> You can only get certain things on braille paper such as paragraphs >> structure that you cannot get on a linear display. You can take a braille >> book anywhere and its durable. Besides not everyone is tech savy or has a >> braille display on their notetaker if they own one. >> >> As to bookshare, I'm not so sure of that. >> Part of me thinks it will go away. If electronic books become accessible >> from distributors and publishers, then why would anyone need bookshare? >> That is a source of electronic books after all. If we all can read books via >> our computers or hook a braille display to the PC to read, then that serves >> the same purpose of bookkshare. >> >> But if bookshare comes to a demise, I do not see that happening for a long >> time. It will be a slow decline of users. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jorge Paez >> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:17 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >> >> I think Bookshare will go away. >> Yes, you can read books with a braille display, if you have an iPhone 4 or >> above. >> And also: can't you use your notetaker with the PC as a braille display? >> I don't see NLS going any time soon just for the braille books. >> They might move away from audio/online, but the braille books are still >> valuable. >> I, like you, want to read the digital stuff on a display too. >> >> On May 24, 2011, at 8:42 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote: >> >>> Hey Guys: >>> >>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >>> to get your thoughts. >>> >>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>> the NLS library service should go away. >>> >>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>> >>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>> >>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>> >>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>> >>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>> reading. >>> >>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>> >>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>> away completely. >>> >>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>> purposes. >>> >>> Kerri >>> >>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>> >>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>> with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>> impaired community. >>> >>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just >>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>> question. >>> >>> •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>> materials in accessible formats. >>> •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>> •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>> commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide >>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>> including mobile phones. >>> •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>> •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these >>> bodies. >>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>> >>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>> treatment?" >>> >>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>> >>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>> >>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>> none who would argue that point. >>> >>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>> media such as music or movies. >>> >>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>> >>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone else? >>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we pay >>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>> college? >>> >>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>> >>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I’m >>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open >>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>> >>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>> just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >>> the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>> books for their hard work? >>> >>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>> printed materials handed over for free? >>> >>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>> >>> I know which outcome I’m hoping for. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 25 22:42:47 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:42:47 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: <5CB638EFEC8844BBB25D05DEA32AB524@OwnerPC> References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> <1E335CBD-E492-4372-BECF-4B34FCAB0A24@panix.com> <5CB638EFEC8844BBB25D05DEA32AB524@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Bryce, Absolutely-if you buy the book, they rip it up to scan the dang thing, no problem keeping the technology. Kevin, I guess I don't know nemeth as much as I thought I did...but there's still the question of venn diagrams and the like. Not everyone can afford a $6000 embosser...careful now-you don't want to sound elitist. ;) While I agree that lots of blind people get atatched to their technology, provided by rehab, and while I'm as guilty as anyone there I suppose, that's not the real issue here. If you're going to read bookshare books, you need that expensive technology anyhow. At least you do if you're going to read the books with refreshable braille...so we're all elitists there I guess. True, not every blind person has access to this technology-this presents as much of a problem for accessing bookshare books as it does for accessing blio or Ibooks with a braille display. Same problem either way-the braille display costs a crapload of money regardless. If you can't get it (and I have many blind friends who can't), bookshare probably isn't a viable option for you unless you're using the synthetic speech of FS Reader built in with jaws...oh, wait! Jaws costs a crapload of money too! Whatever happened to good old fashioned paper braille for that kind of situation? Or, at the very least, volunteer readers? I know they're terrible sometimes but, when you're in that situation where you don't have the technology, you can't get the technology, you don't have the skills to read paper braille and you have no other options...you do what you can. I have friends who are pretty much out of luck because they don't know braille, they aren't trying to learn braille, they can't work through rehab and they have no money for technology. There are still options without all this fancy technology from rehab-namely paper braille and volunteer readers. Getting rid of bookshare's free access would only effect those with the expensive technology to read books-they (we) would have to pay just like everyone else and we're the blind people most able to do so because we have all this fancy technology which cost a fortune. Even if it came through rehab, there's always SSI for students like me. Those without the means to afford or get braille displays or expensive daisy players wouldn't be hurt anyways...bookshare, like Itouches or audible.com, is beyond their means anyhow. Sorry if I sound calous-like I said, I have lots of dear friends in that situation and I'm not judging them. But those are the facts, ladies and gentlemen, take them for what they're worth. Warmly, Kirt On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Kirt, > Nls does not fine you. But at least what I seen they mail you notices to > return your overdue braille or talking books til you return them. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:27 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > Ashley, > You're supposed to return a cd from learning ally-I think I still > have some old ones from years ago hiding in my room somewhere, and > noone's so much as sent me a notice so I'm not sure how much that's > actually enforced. NLS enforces that policy pretty good-except there > aren't fines or anything for lost books...they just put it in as > "lost" in their files and that's the end of that. Don't ask me how I > know...suffice it to say that, were I a user of regular libraries, I'd > have a lot less money to play with. *grin* So no, the return > policies aren't exactly the same, at least as they're enforced in real > life. Oh-and for the record, my days of losing library books ended a > long time ago. Mostly. > Best, > Kirt > > On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Kevin, >> There are some textbooks for which bookshare isn't all that >> practical. For instance, I took a logic class last semester where >> they used all sorts of symbols that aren't in any braille code...I >> kind of had to make my own personal logic-braille. (which I mostly >> used on paper because there just weren't symbols in the braille code >> for what I needed) Bookshare couldn't handle those kinds of books. >> From my understanding, Mike was talking about the technical aspect >> more than the legal aspect. (i.e, rendering books like my logic book >> accessible in electronic braille). Mike, am I understanding you >> wrong? >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/25/11, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>> I actually don't think it would take any new laws. >>> I think the department of education could write the regulations for this >>> based on existing law. >>> The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper >>> regulations. >>> The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes from >>> the >>> federal government. >>> So if the department of education and the other agencies combined there >>> efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to >>> provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that >>> they >>> need to convert. >>> The department of education doesn't need to build another database or >>> storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare. >>> -Kevin >>> >>> >>> On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> >>>> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical >>>> materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such >>>> strictures >>>> on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract. >>>> >>>> Mike Freeman >>>> sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>>> >>>>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be to >>>>> work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any >>>>> University >>>>> or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability >>>>> services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS >>>>> department creates to BookShare. >>>>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books would >>>>> be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. >>>>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and >>>>> cataloging of accessible books. >>>>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of >>>>> funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge >>>>> funding >>>>> to disability services this process if mandated by the federal >>>>> government >>>>> could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and insure >>>>> that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as >>>>> well as the actual book itself. >>>>> >>>>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that are >>>>> available in accessible format or loose there federal disability >>>>> funding >>>>> then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on BookShare. >>>>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and provide >>>>> a >>>>> common format that we can use across the various devices and accessible >>>>> software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray >>>>> that I can find an accessible version. >>>>> >>>>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there is >>>>> not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to >>>>> create accessible material. >>>>> -Kevin >>>>> >>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of >>>>>> books >>>>>> via NLS or bookshare. >>>>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or >>>>>> cheap >>>>>> online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes >>>>>> novels >>>>>> are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook readers >>>>>> are accessible. >>>>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they >>>>>> silenced speech? >>>>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And as >>>>>> a >>>>>> personal example, my library has ebooks too. >>>>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws was >>>>>> only reading the title, not the entire page! >>>>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If ebook >>>>>> readers were actually accessible, then we can think about eliminating >>>>>> what you call preferential treatment. >>>>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks >>>>>> and >>>>>> myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>> >>>>>> Steve, >>>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >>>>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>>>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>>>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >>>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>> Steve, >>>>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't >>>>>>> it? >>>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >>>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >>>>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >>>>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>>>>> literary braille. >>>>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >>>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >>>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and >>>>>>> braille >>>>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >>>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some >>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> novel, for >>>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>>>>>>> access >>>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream >>>>>>>> titles, >>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This >>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> be that >>>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in >>>>>>>> textbooks. >>>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>>>>>>> concentrate on making >>>>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final >>>>>>>> product >>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> already >>>>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>>>>>>> create >>>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> same text >>>>>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> name >>>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what >>>>>>>> sort >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>>>>>>> industry >>>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some >>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is >>>>>>>> hard >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have >>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>> hope, >>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer >>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case >>>>>>>> eventually. >>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to >>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>>>>> yesterday >>>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible >>>>>>>> PDF's >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology >>>>>>>> goes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a >>>>>>>>> bit >>>>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those >>>>>>>>> expensive >>>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>>>>>> BookShare >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and >>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility >>>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of >>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>>>>>> textbooks >>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>>>>>>> hands >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a >>>>>>>>>> dedicated >>>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or >>>>>>>>>> RFB&D >>>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be >>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your >>>>>>>>>> notetaker >>>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too >>>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we >>>>>>>>>> use >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far >>>>>>>>>> off), >>>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to >>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library >>>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just >>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read >>>>>>>>>>> mainstream >>>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a >>>>>>>>>>> library >>>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille >>>>>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people >>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar >>>>>>>>>>> bookstores >>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone >>>>>>>>>>> else. >>>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already >>>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have >>>>>>>>>>> options >>>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone >>>>>>>>>>> else >>>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted >>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or >>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on >>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. >>>>>>>>>>>> No, >>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just >>>>>>>>>>>> embossed >>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>> mean >>>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download >>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the >>>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If >>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away >>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. >>>>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, >>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my >>>>>>>>>>>> rambles. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to >>>>>>>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire >>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, >>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental >>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of >>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at >>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I >>>>>>>>>>>>> immediately >>>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that >>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved >>>>>>>>>>>>> towards >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> future? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>> books. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those >>>>>>>>>>>>>> voices >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into >>>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>> app >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why >>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now >>>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> students >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume >>>>>>>>>>>>>> large >>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats >>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons >>>>>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> No >>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always >>>>>>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferential >>>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sharply. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 93% >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> past. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who >>>>>>>>>>>>>> regularly, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving >>>>>>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> integrated >>>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like >>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructional >>>>>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar >>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would >>>>>>>>>>>>>> love a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less >>>>>>>>>>>>>> capable >>>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>> starting >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPod >>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users >>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining >>>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies >>>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet >>>>>>>>>>>>>> balks >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> extension >>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> move >>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public >>>>>>>>>>>>> Relations >>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in >>>>>>>>>>>> Opera >>>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of >>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding >>>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list 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your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 25 22:44:37 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:44:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> <1E335CBD-E492-4372-BECF-4B34FCAB0A24@panix.com> <5CB638EFEC8844BBB25D05DEA32AB524@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Bryce, I meant to say it's not a problem keeping the computer file of the textbooks you buy. Can you tell I'm wrunning on like no sleep? On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Bryce, > Absolutely-if you buy the book, they rip it up to scan the dang > thing, no problem keeping the technology. > Kevin, > I guess I don't know nemeth as much as I thought I did...but there's > still the question of venn diagrams and the like. Not everyone can > afford a $6000 embosser...careful now-you don't want to sound elitist. > ;) > While I agree that lots of blind people get atatched to their > technology, provided by rehab, and while I'm as guilty as anyone there > I suppose, that's not the real issue here. If you're going to read > bookshare books, you need that expensive technology anyhow. At least > you do if you're going to read the books with refreshable braille...so > we're all elitists there I guess. True, not every blind person has > access to this technology-this presents as much of a problem for > accessing bookshare books as it does for accessing blio or Ibooks with > a braille display. Same problem either way-the braille display costs > a crapload of money regardless. If you can't get it (and I have many > blind friends who can't), bookshare probably isn't a viable option for > you unless you're using the synthetic speech of FS Reader built in > with jaws...oh, wait! Jaws costs a crapload of money too! Whatever > happened to good old fashioned paper braille for that kind of > situation? Or, at the very least, volunteer readers? I know they're > terrible sometimes but, when you're in that situation where you don't > have the technology, you can't get the technology, you don't have the > skills to read paper braille and you have no other options...you do > what you can. I have friends who are pretty much out of luck because > they don't know braille, they aren't trying to learn braille, they > can't work through rehab and they have no money for technology. There > are still options without all this fancy technology from rehab-namely > paper braille and volunteer readers. Getting rid of bookshare's free > access would only effect those with the expensive technology to read > books-they (we) would have to pay just like everyone else and we're > the blind people most able to do so because we have all this fancy > technology which cost a fortune. Even if it came through rehab, > there's always SSI for students like me. Those without the means to > afford or get braille displays or expensive daisy players wouldn't be > hurt anyways...bookshare, like Itouches or audible.com, is beyond > their means anyhow. Sorry if I sound calous-like I said, I have lots > of dear friends in that situation and I'm not judging them. But those > are the facts, ladies and gentlemen, take them for what they're worth. > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Kirt, >> Nls does not fine you. But at least what I seen they mail you notices to >> return your overdue braille or talking books til you return them. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:27 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >> >> Ashley, >> You're supposed to return a cd from learning ally-I think I still >> have some old ones from years ago hiding in my room somewhere, and >> noone's so much as sent me a notice so I'm not sure how much that's >> actually enforced. NLS enforces that policy pretty good-except there >> aren't fines or anything for lost books...they just put it in as >> "lost" in their files and that's the end of that. Don't ask me how I >> know...suffice it to say that, were I a user of regular libraries, I'd >> have a lot less money to play with. *grin* So no, the return >> policies aren't exactly the same, at least as they're enforced in real >> life. Oh-and for the record, my days of losing library books ended a >> long time ago. Mostly. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Kevin, >>> There are some textbooks for which bookshare isn't all that >>> practical. For instance, I took a logic class last semester where >>> they used all sorts of symbols that aren't in any braille code...I >>> kind of had to make my own personal logic-braille. (which I mostly >>> used on paper because there just weren't symbols in the braille code >>> for what I needed) Bookshare couldn't handle those kinds of books. >>> From my understanding, Mike was talking about the technical aspect >>> more than the legal aspect. (i.e, rendering books like my logic book >>> accessible in electronic braille). Mike, am I understanding you >>> wrong? >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/25/11, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>>> I actually don't think it would take any new laws. >>>> I think the department of education could write the regulations for >>>> this >>>> based on existing law. >>>> The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper >>>> regulations. >>>> The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes >>>> from >>>> the >>>> federal government. >>>> So if the department of education and the other agencies combined there >>>> efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to >>>> provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that >>>> they >>>> need to convert. >>>> The department of education doesn't need to build another database or >>>> storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare. >>>> -Kevin >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>> >>>>> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical >>>>> materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such >>>>> strictures >>>>> on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract. >>>>> >>>>> Mike Freeman >>>>> sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be >>>>>> to >>>>>> work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any >>>>>> University >>>>>> or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability >>>>>> services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS >>>>>> department creates to BookShare. >>>>>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books >>>>>> would >>>>>> be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. >>>>>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and >>>>>> cataloging of accessible books. >>>>>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of >>>>>> funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge >>>>>> funding >>>>>> to disability services this process if mandated by the federal >>>>>> government >>>>>> could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and >>>>>> insure >>>>>> that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as >>>>>> well as the actual book itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that >>>>>> are >>>>>> available in accessible format or loose there federal disability >>>>>> funding >>>>>> then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on >>>>>> BookShare. >>>>>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and >>>>>> provide >>>>>> a >>>>>> common format that we can use across the various devices and >>>>>> accessible >>>>>> software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray >>>>>> that I can find an accessible version. >>>>>> >>>>>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there >>>>>> is >>>>>> not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to >>>>>> create accessible material. >>>>>> -Kevin >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of >>>>>>> books >>>>>>> via NLS or bookshare. >>>>>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or >>>>>>> cheap >>>>>>> online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes >>>>>>> novels >>>>>>> are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook >>>>>>> readers >>>>>>> are accessible. >>>>>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they >>>>>>> silenced speech? >>>>>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> personal example, my library has ebooks too. >>>>>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> only reading the title, not the entire page! >>>>>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If >>>>>>> ebook >>>>>>> readers were actually accessible, then we can think about >>>>>>> eliminating >>>>>>> what you call preferential treatment. >>>>>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve, >>>>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>>>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>>>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning >>>>>>> ally >>>>>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>>>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>>>>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>>>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>>>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>>>>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to >>>>>>> me, >>>>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>> Steve, >>>>>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't >>>>>>>> it? >>>>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its >>>>>>>> annoyances, >>>>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>>>>>> literary braille. >>>>>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>>>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of >>>>>>>> course >>>>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>>>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and >>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility >>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some >>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> novel, for >>>>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We >>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>> access >>>>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream >>>>>>>>> titles, >>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and >>>>>>>>> math >>>>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This >>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> be that >>>>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in >>>>>>>>> textbooks. >>>>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally >>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>> concentrate on making >>>>>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final >>>>>>>>> product >>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> already >>>>>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> create >>>>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just >>>>>>>>> taking >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> same text >>>>>>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> name >>>>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know >>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>> sort >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. >>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>> industry >>>>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if >>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is >>>>>>>>> hard >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have >>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>> hope, >>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer >>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case >>>>>>>>> eventually. >>>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to >>>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>>>>>> yesterday >>>>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible >>>>>>>>> PDF's >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology >>>>>>>>> goes. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too >>>>>>>>>> hard. >>>>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks >>>>>>>>>> premature? >>>>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an >>>>>>>>>> ebook >>>>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not >>>>>>>>>> become >>>>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> bit >>>>>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys >>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving >>>>>>>>>> fast >>>>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to >>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those >>>>>>>>>> expensive >>>>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same >>>>>>>>>> technology >>>>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or >>>>>>>>>> coursesmart >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to >>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>>>>>>> BookShare >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that >>>>>>>>>>> quality >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process >>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and >>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it >>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility >>>>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of >>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>>>>>>> textbooks >>>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> hands >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a >>>>>>>>>>> dedicated >>>>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the >>>>>>>>>>> point >>>>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or >>>>>>>>>>> RFB&D >>>>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll >>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your >>>>>>>>>>> notetaker >>>>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out >>>>>>>>>>> there, >>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be >>>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we >>>>>>>>>>> use >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical >>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far >>>>>>>>>>> off), >>>>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last >>>>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books >>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library >>>>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every >>>>>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just >>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of >>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read >>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a >>>>>>>>>>>> tremendous >>>>>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a >>>>>>>>>>>> library >>>>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille >>>>>>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people >>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar >>>>>>>>>>>> bookstores >>>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone >>>>>>>>>>>> else. >>>>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already >>>>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have >>>>>>>>>>>> options >>>>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone >>>>>>>>>>>> else >>>>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, >>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about >>>>>>>>>>>> this-please >>>>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted >>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or >>>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on >>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. >>>>>>>>>>>>> No, >>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just >>>>>>>>>>>>> embossed >>>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can >>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It >>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>>> mean >>>>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download >>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. >>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't >>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, >>>>>>>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken >>>>>>>>>>>>> away >>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? >>>>>>>>>>>>> No. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random >>>>>>>>>>>>> things, >>>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my >>>>>>>>>>>>> rambles. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire >>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental >>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure >>>>>>>>>>>>>> trove >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> immediately >>>>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved >>>>>>>>>>>>>> towards >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Josh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voices >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> students >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contrast, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> large >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> retailer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raises, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferential >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sharply. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 93% >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regularly, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> read. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> readers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> integrated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructional >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> love a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individuals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> starting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPod >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extension >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> move >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relations >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in >>>>>>>>>>>>> Opera >>>>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of >>>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding >>>>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have >>>>>>>>>>>>> eternal >>>>>>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed May 25 22:45:02 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:45:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: <3BC90F43F8BB44E1A1BF82BF76715E12@OwnerPC> References: <3BC90F43F8BB44E1A1BF82BF76715E12@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Sally: I see what you're saying. Perhaps creating a mandatory system in which all publishers can deliver an accessible version of the e-books to the hands of the department of education might be a good idea. Or, that the department of education have the chance to order accessible versions if those don't exist in the regular marketplace. On May 25, 2011, at 7:19 AM, Sally Thomas wrote: > There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce accessible textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more books are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would be foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first when designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks accessible. > > Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the hands of blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated process for producing quality braille. > > Sally Thomas > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > > One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), > Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point > where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D > audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too > long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker > or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it > just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that > trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long > until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to > read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as > using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), > I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our > hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few > posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get > ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are > probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't > as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I > download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like > every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of > getting them on a silver platter > I'm done now, > Kirt > > On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Julie, >> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >> honestly don't know what is. >> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >> With respect, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>> >>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>> order hard copy books. >>> >>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. >>> >>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>> >>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I >>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>> problem with this article: >>>> >>>> ": >>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>> >>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>> >>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>> sighted individuals. >>>> >>>> Brice >>>> >>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>> >>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>> >>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>> >>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>> >>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>> reading. >>>>> >>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>> >>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>>>> away completely. >>>>> >>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>>>> purposes. >>>>> >>>>> Kerri >>>>> >>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>> >>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>>>> with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>>>> impaired community. >>>>> >>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just >>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>> question. >>>>> >>>>> •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>> •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>> •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>> commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide >>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>> •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>> •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>> these >>>>> bodies. >>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>> >>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>> treatment?" >>>>> >>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>> >>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>> >>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>> >>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>> >>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>> >>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone else? >>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we pay >>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>>>> college? >>>>> >>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>> >>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I’m >>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open >>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>> >>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>> just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>> >>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>> >>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>> >>>>> I know which outcome I’m hoping for. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Brice Smith >>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Julie McG >>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>> Eyes for the Blind >>> >>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>> life." >>> John 3:16 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 25 22:48:42 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:48:42 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> <1E335CBD-E492-4372-BECF-4B34FCAB0A24@panix.com> <5CB638EFEC8844BBB25D05DEA32AB524@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Kevin, I almost agree with you. If you were required to pay a price comparable to market value for the textbooks you got from bookshare, I'd be more willing to jump on board. My only reservation would be that not everyone who reads bookshare books can electronically manage books like my logic textbook or those pesky math books, and DSS offices wouldn't want to reproduce something that's already out there in an alternate format. Even with all your fancy technology for reading that electronic logic book in nemeth, I'd prefer the braille logic textbook my DSS office made for me any day. Respectfully, Kirt On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Bryce, > I meant to say it's not a problem keeping the computer file of the > textbooks you buy. Can you tell I'm wrunning on like no sleep? > > On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Bryce, >> Absolutely-if you buy the book, they rip it up to scan the dang >> thing, no problem keeping the technology. >> Kevin, >> I guess I don't know nemeth as much as I thought I did...but there's >> still the question of venn diagrams and the like. Not everyone can >> afford a $6000 embosser...careful now-you don't want to sound elitist. >> ;) >> While I agree that lots of blind people get atatched to their >> technology, provided by rehab, and while I'm as guilty as anyone there >> I suppose, that's not the real issue here. If you're going to read >> bookshare books, you need that expensive technology anyhow. At least >> you do if you're going to read the books with refreshable braille...so >> we're all elitists there I guess. True, not every blind person has >> access to this technology-this presents as much of a problem for >> accessing bookshare books as it does for accessing blio or Ibooks with >> a braille display. Same problem either way-the braille display costs >> a crapload of money regardless. If you can't get it (and I have many >> blind friends who can't), bookshare probably isn't a viable option for >> you unless you're using the synthetic speech of FS Reader built in >> with jaws...oh, wait! Jaws costs a crapload of money too! Whatever >> happened to good old fashioned paper braille for that kind of >> situation? Or, at the very least, volunteer readers? I know they're >> terrible sometimes but, when you're in that situation where you don't >> have the technology, you can't get the technology, you don't have the >> skills to read paper braille and you have no other options...you do >> what you can. I have friends who are pretty much out of luck because >> they don't know braille, they aren't trying to learn braille, they >> can't work through rehab and they have no money for technology. There >> are still options without all this fancy technology from rehab-namely >> paper braille and volunteer readers. Getting rid of bookshare's free >> access would only effect those with the expensive technology to read >> books-they (we) would have to pay just like everyone else and we're >> the blind people most able to do so because we have all this fancy >> technology which cost a fortune. Even if it came through rehab, >> there's always SSI for students like me. Those without the means to >> afford or get braille displays or expensive daisy players wouldn't be >> hurt anyways...bookshare, like Itouches or audible.com, is beyond >> their means anyhow. Sorry if I sound calous-like I said, I have lots >> of dear friends in that situation and I'm not judging them. But those >> are the facts, ladies and gentlemen, take them for what they're worth. >> Warmly, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>> Kirt, >>> Nls does not fine you. But at least what I seen they mail you notices to >>> return your overdue braille or talking books til you return them. >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:27 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>> Bookshare >>> >>> Ashley, >>> You're supposed to return a cd from learning ally-I think I still >>> have some old ones from years ago hiding in my room somewhere, and >>> noone's so much as sent me a notice so I'm not sure how much that's >>> actually enforced. NLS enforces that policy pretty good-except there >>> aren't fines or anything for lost books...they just put it in as >>> "lost" in their files and that's the end of that. Don't ask me how I >>> know...suffice it to say that, were I a user of regular libraries, I'd >>> have a lot less money to play with. *grin* So no, the return >>> policies aren't exactly the same, at least as they're enforced in real >>> life. Oh-and for the record, my days of losing library books ended a >>> long time ago. Mostly. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Kevin, >>>> There are some textbooks for which bookshare isn't all that >>>> practical. For instance, I took a logic class last semester where >>>> they used all sorts of symbols that aren't in any braille code...I >>>> kind of had to make my own personal logic-braille. (which I mostly >>>> used on paper because there just weren't symbols in the braille code >>>> for what I needed) Bookshare couldn't handle those kinds of books. >>>> From my understanding, Mike was talking about the technical aspect >>>> more than the legal aspect. (i.e, rendering books like my logic book >>>> accessible in electronic braille). Mike, am I understanding you >>>> wrong? >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/25/11, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>>>> I actually don't think it would take any new laws. >>>>> I think the department of education could write the regulations for >>>>> this >>>>> based on existing law. >>>>> The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper >>>>> regulations. >>>>> The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes >>>>> from >>>>> the >>>>> federal government. >>>>> So if the department of education and the other agencies combined >>>>> there >>>>> efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to >>>>> provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that >>>>> they >>>>> need to convert. >>>>> The department of education doesn't need to build another database or >>>>> storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare. >>>>> -Kevin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical >>>>>> materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such >>>>>> strictures >>>>>> on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike Freeman >>>>>> sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any >>>>>>> University >>>>>>> or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability >>>>>>> services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS >>>>>>> department creates to BookShare. >>>>>>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. >>>>>>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and >>>>>>> cataloging of accessible books. >>>>>>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of >>>>>>> funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge >>>>>>> funding >>>>>>> to disability services this process if mandated by the federal >>>>>>> government >>>>>>> could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and >>>>>>> insure >>>>>>> that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> well as the actual book itself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> available in accessible format or loose there federal disability >>>>>>> funding >>>>>>> then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on >>>>>>> BookShare. >>>>>>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and >>>>>>> provide >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> common format that we can use across the various devices and >>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>> software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and >>>>>>> pray >>>>>>> that I can find an accessible version. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> create accessible material. >>>>>>> -Kevin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of >>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>> via NLS or bookshare. >>>>>>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or >>>>>>>> cheap >>>>>>>> online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes >>>>>>>> novels >>>>>>>> are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook >>>>>>>> readers >>>>>>>> are accessible. >>>>>>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they >>>>>>>> silenced speech? >>>>>>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> personal example, my library has ebooks too. >>>>>>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> only reading the title, not the entire page! >>>>>>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If >>>>>>>> ebook >>>>>>>> readers were actually accessible, then we can think about >>>>>>>> eliminating >>>>>>>> what you call preferential treatment. >>>>>>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the >>>>>>>> ebooks >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve, >>>>>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>>>>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>>>>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning >>>>>>>> ally >>>>>>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>>>>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>>>>>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>>>>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>>>>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from >>>>>>>> bookshare >>>>>>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to >>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>> Steve, >>>>>>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>>>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>>>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't >>>>>>>>> it? >>>>>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its >>>>>>>>> annoyances, >>>>>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>>>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>>>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>>>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>>>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>>>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>>>>>>> literary braille. >>>>>>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>>>>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of >>>>>>>>> course >>>>>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and >>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>>>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility >>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some >>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> novel, for >>>>>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We >>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>> access >>>>>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream >>>>>>>>>> titles, >>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and >>>>>>>>>> math >>>>>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. >>>>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> be that >>>>>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in >>>>>>>>>> textbooks. >>>>>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally >>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>> concentrate on making >>>>>>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final >>>>>>>>>> product >>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> already >>>>>>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> create >>>>>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just >>>>>>>>>> taking >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> same text >>>>>>>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the >>>>>>>>>> tools >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>> name >>>>>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know >>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>> sort >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. >>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>> industry >>>>>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if >>>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is >>>>>>>>>> hard >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have >>>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>>> hope, >>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer >>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case >>>>>>>>>> eventually. >>>>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to >>>>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>>>>>>> yesterday >>>>>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible >>>>>>>>>> PDF's >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where >>>>>>>>>> technology >>>>>>>>>> goes. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too >>>>>>>>>>> hard. >>>>>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks >>>>>>>>>>> premature? >>>>>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio >>>>>>>>>>> reader >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an >>>>>>>>>>> ebook >>>>>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not >>>>>>>>>>> become >>>>>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> bit >>>>>>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys >>>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving >>>>>>>>>>> fast >>>>>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to >>>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to >>>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those >>>>>>>>>>> expensive >>>>>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same >>>>>>>>>>> technology >>>>>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or >>>>>>>>>>> coursesmart >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to >>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't >>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the >>>>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that >>>>>>>>>>>> quality >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to >>>>>>>>>>>> produce >>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process >>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it >>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put >>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility >>>>>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of >>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>>>>>>>> textbooks >>>>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> hands >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a >>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated >>>>>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the >>>>>>>>>>>> point >>>>>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or >>>>>>>>>>>> RFB&D >>>>>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll >>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your >>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker >>>>>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out >>>>>>>>>>>> there, >>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be >>>>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we >>>>>>>>>>>> use >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical >>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far >>>>>>>>>>>> off), >>>>>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last >>>>>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally >>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's >>>>>>>>>>>> library >>>>>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every >>>>>>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just >>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of >>>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read >>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a >>>>>>>>>>>>> tremendous >>>>>>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a >>>>>>>>>>>>> library >>>>>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy >>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people >>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar >>>>>>>>>>>>> bookstores >>>>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we >>>>>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like >>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>> else. >>>>>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on >>>>>>>>>>>>> apple >>>>>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already >>>>>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to >>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have >>>>>>>>>>>>> options >>>>>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>> else >>>>>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not >>>>>>>>>>>>> hippocricy, >>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about >>>>>>>>>>>>> this-please >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just >>>>>>>>>>>>>> embossed >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> access >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can >>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It >>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download >>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken >>>>>>>>>>>>>> away >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people >>>>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> No. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random >>>>>>>>>>>>>> things, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rambles. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trove >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> immediately >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> towards >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Josh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voices >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> students >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contrast, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> large >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> retailer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e-book >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasons. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raises, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferential >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sharply. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2001, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 93% >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regularly, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> read. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> readers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> integrated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructional >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> love a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individuals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> starting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPod >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> approaching >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extension >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> move >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relations >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Opera >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> eternal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 25 22:54:15 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:54:15 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: <6843F7EA-DBD1-4C6A-A4E3-517C7E97A951@gmail.com> References: <4ddd655e.85a9e60a.682e.0029@mx.google.com> <6843F7EA-DBD1-4C6A-A4E3-517C7E97A951@gmail.com> Message-ID: But you can't get an iphone from T-Mobile...so I'm stuck. On 5/25/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > There are many Android phones available both on Verizon and AT&T, and you > can also get an iPhone from either carrier. > On May 25, 2011, at 4:23 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > >> AT and T? I thought the Android was only for Verizon phones. As far as I >> know, the Android is semiaccessible, but doesn't read some features. But >> if you have AT and T already, I would totally suggest getting the iPhone! >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jorge Paez > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:40:45 -0400 >> Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility >> >> Hi all: >> Just wondering, >> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in >> the Android platform. >> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >> Is TalkBack any good? >> >> >> Thank you. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed May 25 23:04:50 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:04:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: <1C4F44DD4E84485B9B27F7EB17F2504A@Cptr233> References: <1C4F44DD4E84485B9B27F7EB17F2504A@Cptr233> Message-ID: Marsha: NLS I can understand. But bookshare? Why not bookshare? On May 25, 2011, at 12:46 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: > It is doubtful that NLS or Bookshare will ever go away. There is a huge need > for both. And plus theyu are both not just used for students, or blind > people, but by the disability community as a whole. > > Marsha > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Kerri Kosten > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 8:42 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > Hey Guys: > > I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh > DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted > to get your thoughts. > > The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of > ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should > try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from > mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's > Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and > the NLS library service should go away. > > Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? > > Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? > > Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. > > While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille > literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. > Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone > correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display > either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in > BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a > notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. > > What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle > and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for > reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for > reading. > > What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many > people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat > computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for > the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. > > Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went > away completely. > > hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion > purposes. > > Kerri > > Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion > by Josh de Lioncourt > A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that > rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of > years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the > National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we > care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, > Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" > > On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people > with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one > digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an > alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually > impaired community. > > Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at just > a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this > question. > > .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously > available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with > access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the > same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with > publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing > materials in accessible formats. > .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are > understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from > their users before they are able to gain access to the content > provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these > hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. > .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable > or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, > commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle provide > access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, > including mobile phones. > .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a > recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large > number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient > solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove > far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. > .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these > bodies. > This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a > visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, > but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one > solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in > mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. > > There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. > It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired > people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential > treatment?" > > Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. > Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise > inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in > a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. > > With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability > and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. > Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of > information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A > WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of > library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of > college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information > they needed online than by visiting a physical library. > > The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible > than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few > technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the > quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find > none who would argue that point. > > With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline > of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask > yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or > exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The > answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers > purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment > media such as music or movies. > > While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years > passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of > accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, > and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those > with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, > solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a > future of equal access with our sighted peers. > > It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated > access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired > community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially > when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, > purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone else? > Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at > StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or > educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text > on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we pay > for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community > college? > > For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually > impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot > afford to purchase books, I have two questions. > > First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar > circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm > sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a > treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open > BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? > > Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or > government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than > mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available > in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users > to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. > How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which > provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens > of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at > just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod touch > can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, > and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from > the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions ultimately > be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining > books for their hard work? > > Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community > wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon > for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at > the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our > printed materials handed over for free? > > We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a > crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our > convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal > opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on > equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move > forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? > > I know which outcome I'm hoping for. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai > l.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 6149 (20110524) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 6151 (20110525) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 6151 (20110525) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed May 25 23:08:47 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:08:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18F3D953-DC02-4927-A80F-7FC3B6E0709C@gmail.com> Liz: Just a quick note: the apps are all developed by Mobile Accessibility--but the fact that the screenreader doesn't work that well outside those apps is rather Google's fault. On May 25, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Liz Bottner wrote: > What are some things related to usability and convenience that you give up > in using an Android? I am thinking of possibly taking the plunge and getting > an Android, having used an iPhone prior. I have had very little experience > using Android, and will say that I was frustrated in doing so. If I have to > give up a lot and find that my use of the phone and its features really is > limited, I may not go for it. I really wish Google would make accessibility > a priority. I would love choice in which mobile platform I can use. I'm > possibly also spoiled in that I don't think I should have to pay extra for > accessibility, (following Apple's example), especially if the extra that I > would pay only allows me access to a specific suite of applications deemed > accessible by one developer/company and I still cannot have full access to > the phone. Lastly, I am wondering at this point if Android is not more > accessible to the low vision user than it is to one who is totally blind? > > Just my thoughts... > > Liz Bottner > Guiding Eyes Graduate Council > GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 > e-mail: > liziswhatis at hotmail.com > Visit my LiveJournal: > http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com > Follow me on Twitter: > http://twitter.com/lizbot > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Ignasi Cambra > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 5:17 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility > > In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this > point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done. I > have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, none of > the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on an iPhone. > If you need a fully functional phone and you need to accomplish things > quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not ready yet. If you want > to try something new and you are willing to give up on some usability and > convenience, try getting an Android phone and see how it goes. If you are > planning on using Mobile Accessibility I would recommend that you get a > touch screen phone. > > IC > On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> Hi all: >> Just wondering, >> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in > the Android platform. >> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >> Is TalkBack any good? >> >> >> Thank you. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed May 25 23:11:41 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:11:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9F6ACBDE-2CF6-463D-871A-631E9A2BF844@gmail.com> Hi Kirt: What do you mean by "what I need a phone to do?" I'm interested because I'm also up for an upgrade in a few days and I'm looking at Android seriously. On May 25, 2011, at 1:46 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Ignasi, > I use an old android phone (Google g1 with android 1.6 OS) with > talkback. It aint pretty, but it does what I need a phone to do. > Once I upgrade, due to happen in a few months, I'll consider paying > the steap price for mobile accessibility...maybe ask for it as a good > Birthday present or something because, dang it, I don't want to pay > 100 dollars for limited access! > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/25/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> Use of the phone and its features really is limited in my opinion. Many >> things look very promising, and there are a few apps that are designed for >> the blind and work well with Talkback. There are still many things which >> don't seem to work for me...random buttons which don't get activated when >> the screen reader is on, things that are not read to you etc. If you are >> expecting to be able to check your email and browse the internet just like >> on an iPhone, I think you will be disappointed. >> I personally use my iPhone all the time, but have the Droid just to do >> experiments. It's relatively easy to develop applications for Android and I >> have fun with it. I could use it as my primary phone if I wanted to, but I >> still find the iPhone a lot better as a blind user. >> It would be interesting to hear other opinions though. Does anyone on this >> list use an Android phone?? >> On May 25, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Liz Bottner wrote: >> >>> What are some things related to usability and convenience that you give up >>> in using an Android? I am thinking of possibly taking the plunge and >>> getting >>> an Android, having used an iPhone prior. I have had very little experience >>> using Android, and will say that I was frustrated in doing so. If I have >>> to >>> give up a lot and find that my use of the phone and its features really is >>> limited, I may not go for it. I really wish Google would make >>> accessibility >>> a priority. I would love choice in which mobile platform I can use. I'm >>> possibly also spoiled in that I don't think I should have to pay extra for >>> accessibility, (following Apple's example), especially if the extra that I >>> would pay only allows me access to a specific suite of applications deemed >>> accessible by one developer/company and I still cannot have full access to >>> the phone. Lastly, I am wondering at this point if Android is not more >>> accessible to the low vision user than it is to one who is totally blind? >>> >>> Just my thoughts... >>> >>> Liz Bottner >>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>> e-mail: >>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>> Follow me on Twitter: >>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Ignasi Cambra >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 5:17 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility >>> >>> In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this >>> point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done. >>> I >>> have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, none >>> of >>> the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on an >>> iPhone. >>> If you need a fully functional phone and you need to accomplish things >>> quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not ready yet. If you want >>> to try something new and you are willing to give up on some usability and >>> convenience, try getting an Android phone and see how it goes. If you are >>> planning on using Mobile Accessibility I would recommend that you get a >>> touch screen phone. >>> >>> IC >>> On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all: >>>> Just wondering, >>>> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in >>> the Android platform. >>>> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >>>> Is TalkBack any good? >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you. >>>> >>>> Jorge >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed May 25 23:15:32 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:15:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: <3BC90F43F8BB44E1A1BF82BF76715E12@OwnerPC> <67C934E6-7EED-461A-AD4E-107941F1C119@panix.com> <110347776FE542ED80AB70EB06E46A10@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <2BD7DBBC-5C02-400E-B6D2-0C27A4C7B26F@gmail.com> No, My class is using the 2000 version of my history book and I'm using the 2003 version. Ironically the problem is not the book is too old, its too new and so the pages are extremely different, and as I think most of us know, "find" doesn't work that well on the BN for more then 4 words. Not that I'm complaining that they have a new version--they should, but they should also have older ones just in case. On May 25, 2011, at 2:16 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Sally, > > This has been my experience with NIMAC-it's probably not > representative of the blind community, but here goes. Throughout Jr. > High and High School, bookshare was a great place for me to get books > for pleasure reading and a terrible place to get textbooks. The ones > I needed were never there, notwithstanding any laws about NIMAC. When > I got to college, the situation was just the same-I've so far used > about 14 textbooks, only 1 was even on bookshare and the only way I > could read it (because of some corrupted files or something) was to > extract the HTML version from the Daisy zip folder and it was > cumbersome as all heck. Thank God for good offices at my school's > Accessibility center who would hand scan books I bought and send me > rtf or .doc or kurzweil files-they helped me far more with textbooks > in one year than bookshare has in my whole life. I'm not trying to > diss bookshare-I love it, I think it's been a great idea, I think our > need for it is disappearing fast and it'll soon go down in the annals > of history as a great system that outlived its usefulness, even as > print libraries and the NLS flourish. > On a sidenote, was my experience with NIMAC pretty normal, or was I > just terribly unlucky? > All the best, > Kirt > > On 5/25/11, Sally Thomas wrote: >> I was referring specifically to textbook NIMAC files. >> >> Sally Thomas >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Freeman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:33 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >> >> >>> Bookshare is quality Braille? >>> >>> Mike Freeman >>> sent from my iPhone >>> >>> >>> On May 25, 2011, at 4:19, "Sally Thomas" wrote: >>> >>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>> accessible textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process >>>> need to translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and >>>> more books are easily accessible with the new technology available, but >>>> it would be foolish to assume that publishers are going to put >>>> accessibility first when designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the >>>> repository of accessible textbook files. Textbook companies are required >>>> >>>> to make K-12 textbooks accessible. >>>> >>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the hands >>>> of blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>> >>>> Sally Thomas >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>> >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >>>> >>>> >>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>> I'm done now, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Julie, >>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>> With respect, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>> >>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I >>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ": >>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>>>>>>> with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just >>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>> •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>> •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide >>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>> •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>> •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. >>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone >>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we >>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and >>>>>>>> I’m >>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open >>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I know which outcome I’m hoping for. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>> >>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>> life." >>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed May 25 23:19:47 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:19:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindtlk] [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blindflyers'claims over airport kiosks In-Reply-To: <4ddd6134.1116e70a.5ee6.0086@mx.google.com> References: <4ddd6134.1116e70a.5ee6.0086@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <3859914A-3FE9-4E44-A4BC-86C9D4969477@gmail.com> Chris: Good point. So, should we rather sue the transportation department instead of the airlines? On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Yes, but that's hopefully a temporary fix. We're trying to get * independent access to the kiosks, just like sighted people. If there's a big line at the manned counter, a sighted person has the option of going over to the kiosk and checking in just as easily. We need that same access! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Miller" To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" ,"'NABS list'" , "'NFBMD list'" Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 16:33:37 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blindflyers'claims over airport kiosks > > I agree that this is a set-back, and I do hope we continue to press the > issue. However, I have to confess that as annoying as these kiosks are, > their presence has yet to keep me off a plane or prevent me from checking > in. I just insist on getting assistance from a human being and I always get > it. It's when we can't check in at all, or when there are no longer any > human beings at the counter at all that we are in trouble. Another scenario > could be that checking in at kiosks earns passengers special privileges, > such as better selection of seating, or discounted baggage fess. I don't > believe this is the case yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is on the > horizon. When that day comes, we are in real trouble, and I believe we will > have an even stronger case of discrimination to make. > > I think also it has to be noted that it appears this judge didn't rule on > the merits of the case, or whether or not there was a violation of state law > -- just that state law didn't apply in this case due to the overriding > precedence of the Air Carrier Act. In other words, if I understand this > correctly, the court in California wasn't saying we didn't have standing at > all, just that we didn't have standing in that court -- or at the state > level, and that we need to address the issue at the federal level. > > Brian Miller > > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 3:58 PM > To: NABS list; Blind Talk list; NFBMD list > Subject: [Blindtlk] [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blind > flyers'claims over airport kiosks > > And back to court we go... just to be dismissed! Hope they appeal! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ---- Original Message ------ > From: "Sherri" Subject: [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blind flyers' > claims over airport kiosks > Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 02:22:38 -0400 > > I'm sure we'll think of some other way to solve this problem. > > Sherri > > > Westlaw Journal Aviation > Federal law preempts blind flyers' claims over airport kiosks > 5/23/2011 COMMENTS (0) > > > May 23 (Westlaw Journals) - Federal law preempts a class action brought by > the National Federation of the Blind and several visually impaired people > over the accessibility of airport ticketing kiosks, a California federal > judge has ruled. > > U.S. District Judge William Alsup of the Northern District of California > dismissed the NFB's lawsuit, finding the claims preempted by the Air Carrier > Access Act and the Airline Deregulation Act. > > The NFB and other plaintiffs alleged United Airlines violates California > disability law by failing to make airport ticketing kiosks accessible to the > blind. > > According to the complaint, the kiosks employ a visual computer screen with > prompts and touch-screen navigation but do not offer an audio output or > other medium to make the kiosks accessible to the blind. > > The plaintiffs brought their class action on behalf of all legally blind > people in the United States who have flown on United from a California > airport and have been unable to use the airline's kiosks. > > United moved for dismissal, arguing that the Airline Deregulation Act and > the Air Carrier Access Act preempt the plaintiffs' claims. > > Judge Alsup agreed. > > The claims are field-preempted under the ACAA because the Department of > Transportation pervasively regulates airport kiosk accessibility, he said. > > In addition, the Airline Deregulation Act expressly preempts the claims > because they defendants provide an airline "service" as defined in the > statute. > > Finally, the judge rejected the plaintiffs' argument that the Airline > Deregulation Act was meant to target airline deregulation rather than > discrimination. > > "The Airline Deregulation Act unequivocally declares that no state may enact > a law related to airline service," the Judge Alsup said. > "Congress could > have drawn the preemption provision more narrowly. It did not." > > National Federation of the Blind et al. v. United Airlines Inc., No. C > 10-04816 WHA, 2011 WL 1544524 (N.D. Cal. Apr. 25, 2011). > > (Reporting by Jennifer Long, Westlaw Journal Aviation) > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > --------------- > > Register or log in to comment. > C 2011 Thomson Reuters > > a.. Co > Have you visited my personal page at > http://www.raceforindependence.org/goto/Sherri.Brun > If so, Thank you for changing what it means to be blind. > If not, please go there now! > Thank you. > flmom2006 at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nfb-talk mailing list > nfb-talk at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nfb-talk: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/dotkid. > nusbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > blindtlk mailing list > blindtlk at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindtlk: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/brian-r > -miller%40u > iowa.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > blindtlk mailing list > blindtlk at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dotkid. > nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed May 25 23:21:34 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:21:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: <4ddd655e.85a9e60a.682e.0029@mx.google.com> References: <4ddd655e.85a9e60a.682e.0029@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <9D7AC341-5C3F-4735-93ED-CC871C1C9B3B@gmail.com> Chris: Unlike the iPhone the Android isn't exclusive to anyone I think. On May 25, 2011, at 4:23 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > AT and T? I thought the Android was only for Verizon phones. As far as I know, the Android is semiaccessible, but doesn't read some features. But if you have AT and T already, I would totally suggest getting the iPhone! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:40:45 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility > > Hi all: > Just wondering, > my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in the Android platform. > What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? > Is TalkBack any good? > > > Thank you. > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed May 25 23:24:18 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:24:18 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: <9D7AC341-5C3F-4735-93ED-CC871C1C9B3B@gmail.com> References: <4ddd655e.85a9e60a.682e.0029@mx.google.com> <9D7AC341-5C3F-4735-93ED-CC871C1C9B3B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ignasii, (or anyone who knows), You seem to use android quite a bit. Have you found a decent GPS app for android other than the Walkie Talkie one from eyes-free? On 5/25/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > Chris: > Unlike the iPhone the Android isn't exclusive to anyone I think. > > > On May 25, 2011, at 4:23 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > >> AT and T? I thought the Android was only for Verizon phones. As far as I >> know, the Android is semiaccessible, but doesn't read some features. But >> if you have AT and T already, I would totally suggest getting the iPhone! >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jorge Paez > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:40:45 -0400 >> Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility >> >> Hi all: >> Just wondering, >> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in >> the Android platform. >> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >> Is TalkBack any good? >> >> >> Thank you. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed May 25 23:24:57 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:24:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: <33CC1C522D0C4B499AD7EEE45423FEA9@OwnerPC> References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> <33CC1C522D0C4B499AD7EEE45423FEA9@OwnerPC> Message-ID: So then bookshare can be absolved completely. All we need is tighter enforcement of existing laws. On May 25, 2011, at 5:24 PM, wrote: > There is already a catalog of books. It is called Access text. DSS offices can share books this way; I think eight publishers belong to it. I'm advocating for my school to belong to the database. I don't think we need another federal mandate. Equal access i s already covered under section 504 and > ADA. We just have to get schools to follow the existing laws! > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Fjelsted > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 4:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be to work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any University or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS department creates to BookShare. > Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books would be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. > The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and cataloging of accessible books. > Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge funding to disability services this process if mandated by the federal government could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and insure that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as well as the actual book itself. > > Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that are available in accessible format or loose there federal disability funding then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on BookShare. > I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and provide a common format that we can use across the various devices and accessible software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray that I can find an accessible version. > > We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there is not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to create accessible material. > -Kevin > > On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: > >> Kirt, >> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of books via NLS or bookshare. >> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or cheap online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes novels are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook readers are accessible. >> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they silenced speech? >> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And as a personal example, my library has ebooks too. >> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws was only reading the title, not the entire page! >> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If ebook readers were actually accessible, then we can think about eliminating what you call preferential treatment. >> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks and myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >> >> Ashley >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >> >> Steve, >> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >> Warmly, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Steve, >>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? >>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>> literary braille. >>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille >>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>> Warmly, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>> Kirt, >>>> >>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some things >>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a >>>> novel, for >>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>>> access >>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, so >>>> I >>>> am >>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>> >>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may >>>> not >>>> be that >>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. >>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>>> concentrate on making >>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final product >>>> by >>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is >>>> already >>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>>> create >>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking the >>>> same text >>>> and making it available in another format. >>>> >>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you >>>> name >>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what sort >>>> of >>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>>> industry >>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some new >>>> way >>>> of >>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard to >>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some >>>> hope, >>>> but >>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need on >>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually. >>>> In >>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make >>>> their >>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>> yesterday >>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>>> would >>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's >>>> in >>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology goes. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> >>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> >>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit >>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or >>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the >>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>> Kirt >>>> >>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with BookShare >>>>>> to >>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of >>>>>> BKS >>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>> >>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>> >>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>> accessible >>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more >>>>>> books >>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would >>>>>> be >>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first >>>>>> when >>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible >>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks >>>>>> accessible. >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>>> hands >>>>>> of >>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or >>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If >>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at >>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. >>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we >>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and >>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>> m >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>> l.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From liziswhatis at hotmail.com Wed May 25 23:26:47 2011 From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:26:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ...but by buying MA, that, I believe, is what you would be doing. Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 12:46 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility Ignasi, I use an old android phone (Google g1 with android 1.6 OS) with talkback. It aint pretty, but it does what I need a phone to do. Once I upgrade, due to happen in a few months, I'll consider paying the steap price for mobile accessibility...maybe ask for it as a good Birthday present or something because, dang it, I don't want to pay 100 dollars for limited access! Warmly, Kirt On 5/25/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > Use of the phone and its features really is limited in my opinion. Many > things look very promising, and there are a few apps that are designed for > the blind and work well with Talkback. There are still many things which > don't seem to work for me...random buttons which don't get activated when > the screen reader is on, things that are not read to you etc. If you are > expecting to be able to check your email and browse the internet just like > on an iPhone, I think you will be disappointed. > I personally use my iPhone all the time, but have the Droid just to do > experiments. It's relatively easy to develop applications for Android and I > have fun with it. I could use it as my primary phone if I wanted to, but I > still find the iPhone a lot better as a blind user. > It would be interesting to hear other opinions though. Does anyone on this > list use an Android phone?? > On May 25, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Liz Bottner wrote: > >> What are some things related to usability and convenience that you give up >> in using an Android? I am thinking of possibly taking the plunge and >> getting >> an Android, having used an iPhone prior. I have had very little experience >> using Android, and will say that I was frustrated in doing so. If I have >> to >> give up a lot and find that my use of the phone and its features really is >> limited, I may not go for it. I really wish Google would make >> accessibility >> a priority. I would love choice in which mobile platform I can use. I'm >> possibly also spoiled in that I don't think I should have to pay extra for >> accessibility, (following Apple's example), especially if the extra that I >> would pay only allows me access to a specific suite of applications deemed >> accessible by one developer/company and I still cannot have full access to >> the phone. Lastly, I am wondering at this point if Android is not more >> accessible to the low vision user than it is to one who is totally blind? >> >> Just my thoughts... >> >> Liz Bottner >> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >> e-mail: >> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >> Visit my LiveJournal: >> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >> Follow me on Twitter: >> http://twitter.com/lizbot >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Ignasi Cambra >> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 5:17 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility >> >> In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this >> point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done. >> I >> have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, none >> of >> the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on an >> iPhone. >> If you need a fully functional phone and you need to accomplish things >> quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not ready yet. If you want >> to try something new and you are willing to give up on some usability and >> convenience, try getting an Android phone and see how it goes. If you are >> planning on using Mobile Accessibility I would recommend that you get a >> touch screen phone. >> >> IC >> On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >>> Hi all: >>> Just wondering, >>> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in >> the Android platform. >>> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >>> Is TalkBack any good? >>> >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >> l.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai l.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed May 25 23:28:55 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:28:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindtlk] [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blindflyers'claims over airport kiosks In-Reply-To: <830DDA46-9158-4ABC-8EC7-3242A1CC8F1A@panix.com> References: <4ddd6134.1116e70a.5ee6.0086@mx.google.com> <830DDA46-9158-4ABC-8EC7-3242A1CC8F1A@panix.com> Message-ID: <0DDB58FA-0526-4090-9166-F8F51191D60B@gmail.com> Exactly my point--and I think that's why our argument got thrown out by US AIRWAYS. On May 25, 2011, at 5:45 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > Let's be clear: we would like such access; we don'ttruly need it most of the time. > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 25, 2011, at 13:05, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > >> Yes, but that's hopefully a temporary fix. We're trying to get * independent access to the kiosks, just like sighted people. If there's a big line at the manned counter, a sighted person has the option of going over to the kiosk and checking in just as easily. We need that same access! >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brian Miller" > To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" ,"'NABS list'" , "'NFBMD list'" > Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 16:33:37 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blindflyers'claims over airport kiosks >> >> I agree that this is a set-back, and I do hope we continue to press the >> issue. However, I have to confess that as annoying as these kiosks are, >> their presence has yet to keep me off a plane or prevent me from checking >> in. I just insist on getting assistance from a human being and I always get >> it. It's when we can't check in at all, or when there are no longer any >> human beings at the counter at all that we are in trouble. Another scenario >> could be that checking in at kiosks earns passengers special privileges, >> such as better selection of seating, or discounted baggage fess. I don't >> believe this is the case yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is on the >> horizon. When that day comes, we are in real trouble, and I believe we will >> have an even stronger case of discrimination to make. >> >> I think also it has to be noted that it appears this judge didn't rule on >> the merits of the case, or whether or not there was a violation of state law >> -- just that state law didn't apply in this case due to the overriding >> precedence of the Air Carrier Act. In other words, if I understand this >> correctly, the court in California wasn't saying we didn't have standing at >> all, just that we didn't have standing in that court -- or at the state >> level, and that we need to address the issue at the federal level. >> >> Brian Miller >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum >> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 3:58 PM >> To: NABS list; Blind Talk list; NFBMD list >> Subject: [Blindtlk] [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blind >> flyers'claims over airport kiosks >> >> And back to court we go... just to be dismissed! Hope they appeal! >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ---- Original Message ------ >> From: "Sherri" > Subject: [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blind flyers' >> claims over airport kiosks >> Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 02:22:38 -0400 >> >> I'm sure we'll think of some other way to solve this problem. >> >> Sherri >> >> >> Westlaw Journal Aviation >> Federal law preempts blind flyers' claims over airport kiosks >> 5/23/2011 COMMENTS (0) >> >> >> May 23 (Westlaw Journals) - Federal law preempts a class action brought by >> the National Federation of the Blind and several visually impaired people >> over the accessibility of airport ticketing kiosks, a California federal >> judge has ruled. >> >> U.S. District Judge William Alsup of the Northern District of California >> dismissed the NFB's lawsuit, finding the claims preempted by the Air Carrier >> Access Act and the Airline Deregulation Act. >> >> The NFB and other plaintiffs alleged United Airlines violates California >> disability law by failing to make airport ticketing kiosks accessible to the >> blind. >> >> According to the complaint, the kiosks employ a visual computer screen with >> prompts and touch-screen navigation but do not offer an audio output or >> other medium to make the kiosks accessible to the blind. >> >> The plaintiffs brought their class action on behalf of all legally blind >> people in the United States who have flown on United from a California >> airport and have been unable to use the airline's kiosks. >> >> United moved for dismissal, arguing that the Airline Deregulation Act and >> the Air Carrier Access Act preempt the plaintiffs' claims. >> >> Judge Alsup agreed. >> >> The claims are field-preempted under the ACAA because the Department of >> Transportation pervasively regulates airport kiosk accessibility, he said. >> >> In addition, the Airline Deregulation Act expressly preempts the claims >> because they defendants provide an airline "service" as defined in the >> statute. >> >> Finally, the judge rejected the plaintiffs' argument that the Airline >> Deregulation Act was meant to target airline deregulation rather than >> discrimination. >> >> "The Airline Deregulation Act unequivocally declares that no state may enact >> a law related to airline service," the Judge Alsup said. >> "Congress could >> have drawn the preemption provision more narrowly. It did not." >> >> National Federation of the Blind et al. v. United Airlines Inc., No. C >> 10-04816 WHA, 2011 WL 1544524 (N.D. Cal. Apr. 25, 2011). >> >> (Reporting by Jennifer Long, Westlaw Journal Aviation) >> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------------- >> >> Register or log in to comment. >> C 2011 Thomson Reuters >> >> a.. Co >> Have you visited my personal page at >> http://www.raceforindependence.org/goto/Sherri.Brun >> If so, Thank you for changing what it means to be blind. >> If not, please go there now! >> Thank you. >> flmom2006 at gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nfb-talk mailing list >> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nfb-talk: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/dotkid. >> nusbaum%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindtlk mailing list >> blindtlk at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> blindtlk: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/brian-r >> -miller%40u >> iowa.edu >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> blindtlk mailing list >> blindtlk at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dotkid. >> nusbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed May 25 23:30:50 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:30:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> <1E335CBD-E492-4372-BECF-4B34FCAB0A24@panix.com> Message-ID: That is sooooo true. Exactly why NLS will never die. Jorge On May 25, 2011, at 5:32 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Ashley, > If your braille display breaks and you're unemployed...good luck > reading bookshare books in braille. Using those ebook readers and > paying for a couple books with SSI would probably be one of the few > options you had left- or you might have to rely on the hardcopy > braille books the NLS provides. Do you see my point? The problem of > expensive braille displays, and getting them with little or no income, > will be there no matter if we're using bookshare or blio to get our > braille books. > > On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Ashley, >> You're supposed to return a cd from learning ally-I think I still >> have some old ones from years ago hiding in my room somewhere, and >> noone's so much as sent me a notice so I'm not sure how much that's >> actually enforced. NLS enforces that policy pretty good-except there >> aren't fines or anything for lost books...they just put it in as >> "lost" in their files and that's the end of that. Don't ask me how I >> know...suffice it to say that, were I a user of regular libraries, I'd >> have a lot less money to play with. *grin* So no, the return >> policies aren't exactly the same, at least as they're enforced in real >> life. Oh-and for the record, my days of losing library books ended a >> long time ago. Mostly. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Kevin, >>> There are some textbooks for which bookshare isn't all that >>> practical. For instance, I took a logic class last semester where >>> they used all sorts of symbols that aren't in any braille code...I >>> kind of had to make my own personal logic-braille. (which I mostly >>> used on paper because there just weren't symbols in the braille code >>> for what I needed) Bookshare couldn't handle those kinds of books. >>> From my understanding, Mike was talking about the technical aspect >>> more than the legal aspect. (i.e, rendering books like my logic book >>> accessible in electronic braille). Mike, am I understanding you >>> wrong? >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/25/11, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>>> I actually don't think it would take any new laws. >>>> I think the department of education could write the regulations for this >>>> based on existing law. >>>> The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper >>>> regulations. >>>> The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes from >>>> the >>>> federal government. >>>> So if the department of education and the other agencies combined there >>>> efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to >>>> provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that >>>> they >>>> need to convert. >>>> The department of education doesn't need to build another database or >>>> storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare. >>>> -Kevin >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>> >>>>> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical >>>>> materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such >>>>> strictures >>>>> on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract. >>>>> >>>>> Mike Freeman >>>>> sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be to >>>>>> work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any >>>>>> University >>>>>> or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability >>>>>> services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS >>>>>> department creates to BookShare. >>>>>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books >>>>>> would >>>>>> be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. >>>>>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and >>>>>> cataloging of accessible books. >>>>>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of >>>>>> funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge >>>>>> funding >>>>>> to disability services this process if mandated by the federal >>>>>> government >>>>>> could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and >>>>>> insure >>>>>> that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as >>>>>> well as the actual book itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that are >>>>>> available in accessible format or loose there federal disability >>>>>> funding >>>>>> then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on >>>>>> BookShare. >>>>>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and provide >>>>>> a >>>>>> common format that we can use across the various devices and >>>>>> accessible >>>>>> software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray >>>>>> that I can find an accessible version. >>>>>> >>>>>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there >>>>>> is >>>>>> not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to >>>>>> create accessible material. >>>>>> -Kevin >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of >>>>>>> books >>>>>>> via NLS or bookshare. >>>>>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or >>>>>>> cheap >>>>>>> online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes >>>>>>> novels >>>>>>> are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook readers >>>>>>> are accessible. >>>>>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they >>>>>>> silenced speech? >>>>>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> personal example, my library has ebooks too. >>>>>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> only reading the title, not the entire page! >>>>>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If >>>>>>> ebook >>>>>>> readers were actually accessible, then we can think about eliminating >>>>>>> what you call preferential treatment. >>>>>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve, >>>>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>>>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>>>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >>>>>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>>>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>>>>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>>>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>>>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>>>>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >>>>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>> Steve, >>>>>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't >>>>>>>> it? >>>>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >>>>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >>>>>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>>>>>> literary braille. >>>>>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >>>>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>>>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of >>>>>>>> course >>>>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>>>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and >>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility >>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some >>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> novel, for >>>>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We >>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>> access >>>>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream >>>>>>>>> titles, >>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and >>>>>>>>> math >>>>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This >>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> be that >>>>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in >>>>>>>>> textbooks. >>>>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally >>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>> concentrate on making >>>>>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final >>>>>>>>> product >>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> already >>>>>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>>>>>>>> create >>>>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just >>>>>>>>> taking >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> same text >>>>>>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> name >>>>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know >>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>> sort >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>>>>>>>> industry >>>>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if >>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is >>>>>>>>> hard >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have >>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>> hope, >>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer >>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case >>>>>>>>> eventually. >>>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to >>>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>>>>>> yesterday >>>>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible >>>>>>>>> PDF's >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology >>>>>>>>> goes. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not >>>>>>>>>> become >>>>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a >>>>>>>>>> bit >>>>>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving >>>>>>>>>> fast >>>>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those >>>>>>>>>> expensive >>>>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or >>>>>>>>>> coursesmart >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>>>>>>> BookShare >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that >>>>>>>>>>> quality >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and >>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it >>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility >>>>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of >>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>>>>>>> textbooks >>>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> hands >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a >>>>>>>>>>> dedicated >>>>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the >>>>>>>>>>> point >>>>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or >>>>>>>>>>> RFB&D >>>>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be >>>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your >>>>>>>>>>> notetaker >>>>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, >>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too >>>>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we >>>>>>>>>>> use >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far >>>>>>>>>>> off), >>>>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last >>>>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books >>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library >>>>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every >>>>>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just >>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read >>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a >>>>>>>>>>>> tremendous >>>>>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a >>>>>>>>>>>> library >>>>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille >>>>>>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people >>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar >>>>>>>>>>>> bookstores >>>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone >>>>>>>>>>>> else. >>>>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already >>>>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have >>>>>>>>>>>> options >>>>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone >>>>>>>>>>>> else >>>>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, >>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about >>>>>>>>>>>> this-please >>>>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted >>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or >>>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on >>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. >>>>>>>>>>>>> No, >>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just >>>>>>>>>>>>> embossed >>>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can >>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>>> mean >>>>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download >>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the >>>>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. >>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't >>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, >>>>>>>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away >>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random >>>>>>>>>>>>> things, >>>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my >>>>>>>>>>>>> rambles. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire >>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental >>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure >>>>>>>>>>>>>> trove >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> immediately >>>>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved >>>>>>>>>>>>>> towards >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Josh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voices >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> students >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contrast, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> large >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> retailer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferential >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sharply. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 93% >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regularly, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> readers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> integrated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructional >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> love a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> starting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPod >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extension >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> move >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relations >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in >>>>>>>>>>>>> Opera >>>>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of >>>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding >>>>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have >>>>>>>>>>>>> eternal >>>>>>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From liziswhatis at hotmail.com Wed May 25 23:31:35 2011 From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:31:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: <4ddd655e.85a9e60a.682e.0029@mx.google.com> References: <4ddd655e.85a9e60a.682e.0029@mx.google.com> Message-ID: AT&T has Android phones also. Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility AT and T? I thought the Android was only for Verizon phones. As far as I know, the Android is semiaccessible, but doesn't read some features. But if you have AT and T already, I would totally suggest getting the iPhone! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez References: Message-ID: Yes. Here's the thing though: how can we deal with the note taker prices? These companies obviously make more money off of sales to government agencies since not many people can afford individual purchases. This said, how can we lower the price? On May 25, 2011, at 6:13 PM, wrote: > HBrice, > Awesome points and I thought the same thing. It seems like there is this belief that well if I got the technology and can use it, then everyone can do it. Not so. Rehab only gets you technology as a student. A VR stream is over $300 and some can't afford that even. A notetaker is about 4 k or 6 k. > And folks, not everyone wants an Iphone or I Touch. > Brice said > "As mentioned, I would be perfectly fine with NLS or BookShare cracking > down on piracy of ebooks. I delete the materials when I'm done with > them anyway, and think that everyone else should too. This type of > thing could never be full proof but might help alleviate the cries of > unfairness on the topic." > > Yes, I do too; I delete when I'm done, although I'll admit some real good books, I have kept. > Sighted students have options to rent books and as Brice said if you buy the book you cannot sell it back if your DSS scanned it. > So those two things are unfair to us. I don't see a win-win solution. > I want to see ebook readers accessible, and once they are and are wide spread we may see the slow, I mean slow, decline of bookshare. > But I predict that NLS will stay as long as traditional libraries stay. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Brice Smith > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:53 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > What's also not fair is paying full price for a textbook and being > unable to return the material at the end of the semester like other > students because your DSO ripped and scanned the book. In that case, > keeping the PDF or text file is perfectly justifiable, in my opinion. > By the way: one of my friends rents her textbooks online, photocopies > the pages she needs, and returns the book within the return limit. > Blind people are not the only ones that unfairly cheat the system. > *grin* > > As mentioned, I would be perfectly fine with NLS or BookShare cracking > down on piracy of ebooks. I delete the materials when I'm done with > them anyway, and think that everyone else should too. This type of > thing could never be full proof but might help alleviate the cries of > unfairness on the topic. > > There seems to be an increasing but small minority of "elite" blind > people, a lot of whom are on these lists. These people have Braille > displays, Apple iPhones or n86 phones with KNFB Reader, the latest > computer technology and money and/or resources from rehab or another > source which sometimes makes them somewhat unconsciously disconnected > from reality. This is a problem when we stop realizing that not > everyone has access to all this and start taking away options for > others that does more harm than good. > > Brice > > On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> wouldn't mind if NLS had a time limit on their downloadable books. But >> getting hard copy is similar to the library; you got to return hard copy >> books or the digital books within a month. I think the borrowing there is >> similar to a sighted person borrowing from a library; only thing is NLS only >> has a fraction of the library. Kirt, my schools also require proof >> of purchase before they make an accessible book via the publisher sending >> electronic text. I'm fine with that because sighted students have to buy >> books too. I see what you say about downloading books free. I guess that >> is the loop hole in digital downloads. >> But if you get an old fashion CD from Learning Ally, you still have to >> return it. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:02 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >> >> Kevin, >> Not a bad idea. But the thing is some kinds of textbooks (ala >> calculus, chemistry, etc) that are symbol-intensive are still >> problematic in electronic braille. But I guess having the choice to >> read them that way isn't a bad thing. >> Ashley, I hear you. Does rehab not help pay for readers? And, as I >> said, I wouldn't mind if digital braille lending libraries like NLS >> implimented a real way to make sure you couldn't just download a book >> in braille and keep it forever-for sighted people, that usually >> results in huge library fines. And of course most people can buy >> paperbacks at pretty cheap prices-with Audible and Blio and the Kindle >> and IOS devices (especially if and when braille access improves), we >> have the ability to buy ebooks at the same prices everyone else has >> to. Downloading a book for free from bookshare or learning ally is >> not the same as going to the library and checking out a book because >> libraries have return policies (even for ebooks and digital >> audiobooks), so as to not violate copyright law. We can download a >> .brf book for free, which anyone else has to pay for if they want to >> keep instead of borrow. >> And I have another question. I recognize the need for accessible >> textbooks. My university accessibility center requires that I first >> purchase any book before they can make it accessible, which is >> perfectly reasonable-other students, after all, have to buy their >> textbooks if they want to own them. So why on earth can we >> permanently get college textbooks for _free_, which we can keep for as >> long as we like...in effect, we're buying books without paying for >> them. Were I a book publisher, I'd probably be a little bit ticked >> about that. I'm all for accessibility, but shouldn't we have to pay >> for our books if we want to keep them, just like everyone else has to? >> How on earth is this fair? >> >> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>> Kirt, >>> >>> Well, I tried to cover this before but perhaps didn't do it well enough. >>> Saying that the availability of novels is probably fairly straight-forward >>> is not the same >>> as saying that we already have access to them. In some cases we do, >>> through >>> BLIO, for example. However, I still believe that discarding the old >>> infrastructures that have been built up over many years is a bit premature >>> until we get a better sense of where electronic texts and their >>> accessability is truly >>> going. I don't doubt the commitment of BLIO to accessibility, but I do >>> think that we can't say at this point how well the general market will >>> support BLIO and >>> that's important for it to work. It will take some time for many of us to >>> get used to reading with a synthesized voice, even if it is pretty good. >>> There are also >>> many for whom technology is still a challenge. These things will probably >>> change over time, but they are still true barriers today and will be so >>> for >>> a while yet. >>> >>> Electronic texts probably will have an impact on BookShare over time. >>> Also, >>> we are about the only organization of blind people who ever questions >>> whether >>> we need a given service, so even if we were to all agree that it is time >>> to >>> abandon BookShare and buy e-texts, there will be others who wil oppose >>> that. >>> >>> Still, my contention is simply that we need to see better how the >>> electronic >>> text market matures and how accessibility fairs before advocating big >>> changes in >>> how we get books. Examining whether we are receiving preferential >>> treatment >>> is always a good thing to do in my opinion, and I hope we're honest enough >>> with ourselves to continue this kind of self-examination. At the same >>> time, >>> we have to be careful to not trade a service we have for promises of what >>> will be, >>> and we also need to be careful not to sell out those of us who are less >>> technical or on lower incomes. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 13:24:50 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> >>>> Steve, >>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>>> Warmly, >>>> Kirt >>> >>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Steve, >>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? >>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with >>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>>> literary braille. >>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course >>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille >>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so >>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>>> Warmly, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>> >>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some >>>>>> things >>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a >>>>>> novel, for >>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need >>>>>> access >>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, >>>>>> so >>>>>> I >>>>>> am >>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>>> >>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math >>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may >>>>>> not >>>>>> be that >>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. >>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will >>>>>> concentrate on making >>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final >>>>>> product >>>>>> by >>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is >>>>>> already >>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>>>>> create >>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking >>>>>> the >>>>>> same text >>>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>>> >>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you >>>>>> name >>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what >>>>>> sort >>>>>> of >>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>>>>> industry >>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some >>>>>> new >>>>>> way >>>>>> of >>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard >>>>>> to >>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some >>>>>> hope, >>>>>> but >>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need >>>>>> on >>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually. >>>>>> In >>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make >>>>>> their >>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>>> yesterday >>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I >>>>>> would >>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's >>>>>> in >>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology >>>>>> goes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and >>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become >>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit >>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast >>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a >>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive >>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or >>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the >>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the >>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>>>> BookShare >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of >>>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to >>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more >>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility >>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of >>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>>>> textbooks >>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>>>>>> hands >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated >>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your >>>>>>>> notetaker >>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too >>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to >>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library >>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores >>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to >>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone >>>>>>>>> else. >>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people >>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they >>>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed >>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't >>>>>>>>>> mean >>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the >>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away >>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. >>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, >>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, >>>>>>>>>>> fundamental >>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or >>>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at >>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that >>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books >>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the >>>>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and >>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the >>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as >>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should >>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If >>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at >>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now >>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability >>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats >>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No >>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always >>>>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen >>>>>>>>>>>> sharply. >>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the >>>>>>>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the >>>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. >>>>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact >>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as >>>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who >>>>>>>>>>>> regularly, >>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in >>>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the >>>>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving >>>>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone >>>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as >>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we >>>>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, >>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting >>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or >>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining >>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks >>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Brice Smith > North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations > Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From liziswhatis at hotmail.com Wed May 25 23:52:41 2011 From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:52:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: <18F3D953-DC02-4927-A80F-7FC3B6E0709C@gmail.com> References: <18F3D953-DC02-4927-A80F-7FC3B6E0709C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, I do realize this. I believe that my point still stands: I pay the money and can access what MA will let me access, regardless of who's fault it was that increased accessibility isn't available. The bottom line is that I am still having to pay extra for accessibility, something that comes inherent on Apple devices. It really is a catch-22. Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jorge Paez Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:09 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility Liz: Just a quick note: the apps are all developed by Mobile Accessibility--but the fact that the screenreader doesn't work that well outside those apps is rather Google's fault. On May 25, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Liz Bottner wrote: > What are some things related to usability and convenience that you give up > in using an Android? I am thinking of possibly taking the plunge and getting > an Android, having used an iPhone prior. I have had very little experience > using Android, and will say that I was frustrated in doing so. If I have to > give up a lot and find that my use of the phone and its features really is > limited, I may not go for it. I really wish Google would make accessibility > a priority. I would love choice in which mobile platform I can use. I'm > possibly also spoiled in that I don't think I should have to pay extra for > accessibility, (following Apple's example), especially if the extra that I > would pay only allows me access to a specific suite of applications deemed > accessible by one developer/company and I still cannot have full access to > the phone. Lastly, I am wondering at this point if Android is not more > accessible to the low vision user than it is to one who is totally blind? > > Just my thoughts... > > Liz Bottner > Guiding Eyes Graduate Council > GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 > e-mail: > liziswhatis at hotmail.com > Visit my LiveJournal: > http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com > Follow me on Twitter: > http://twitter.com/lizbot > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Ignasi Cambra > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 5:17 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility > > In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this > point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done. I > have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, none of > the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on an iPhone. > If you need a fully functional phone and you need to accomplish things > quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not ready yet. If you want > to try something new and you are willing to give up on some usability and > convenience, try getting an Android phone and see how it goes. If you are > planning on using Mobile Accessibility I would recommend that you get a > touch screen phone. > > IC > On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> Hi all: >> Just wondering, >> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in > the Android platform. >> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >> Is TalkBack any good? >> >> >> Thank you. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepae z%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai l.com From kobycox at gmail.com Thu May 26 00:00:38 2011 From: kobycox at gmail.com (Koby Cox) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:00:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: <18F3D953-DC02-4927-A80F-7FC3B6E0709C@gmail.com> Message-ID: bliss, Can you email me off list? Thanks, Koby. sent from my iphone On May 25, 2011, at 6:52 PM, Liz Bottner wrote: > Yes, I do realize this. I believe that my point still stands: I pay the > money and can access what MA will let me access, regardless of who's fault > it was that increased accessibility isn't available. The bottom line is that > I am still having to pay extra for accessibility, something that comes > inherent on Apple devices. It really is a catch-22. > > Liz Bottner > Guiding Eyes Graduate Council > GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 > e-mail: > liziswhatis at hotmail.com > Visit my LiveJournal: > http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com > Follow me on Twitter: > http://twitter.com/lizbot > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Jorge Paez > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:09 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility > > Liz: > Just a quick note: > the apps are all developed by Mobile Accessibility--but the fact that the > screenreader doesn't work that well outside those apps is rather Google's > fault. > > > On May 25, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Liz Bottner wrote: > >> What are some things related to usability and convenience that you give up >> in using an Android? I am thinking of possibly taking the plunge and > getting >> an Android, having used an iPhone prior. I have had very little experience >> using Android, and will say that I was frustrated in doing so. If I have > to >> give up a lot and find that my use of the phone and its features really is >> limited, I may not go for it. I really wish Google would make > accessibility >> a priority. I would love choice in which mobile platform I can use. I'm >> possibly also spoiled in that I don't think I should have to pay extra for >> accessibility, (following Apple's example), especially if the extra that I >> would pay only allows me access to a specific suite of applications deemed >> accessible by one developer/company and I still cannot have full access to >> the phone. Lastly, I am wondering at this point if Android is not more >> accessible to the low vision user than it is to one who is totally blind? >> >> Just my thoughts... >> >> Liz Bottner >> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >> e-mail: >> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >> Visit my LiveJournal: >> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >> Follow me on Twitter: >> http://twitter.com/lizbot >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf >> Of Ignasi Cambra >> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 5:17 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility >> >> In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this >> point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done. > I >> have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, none > of >> the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on an > iPhone. >> If you need a fully functional phone and you need to accomplish things >> quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not ready yet. If you want >> to try something new and you are willing to give up on some usability and >> convenience, try getting an Android phone and see how it goes. If you are >> planning on using Mobile Accessibility I would recommend that you get a >> touch screen phone. >> >> IC >> On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >>> Hi all: >>> Just wondering, >>> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in >> the Android platform. >>> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >>> Is TalkBack any good? >>> >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >> l.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepae > z%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com From jenandnixon at gmail.com Thu May 26 00:27:01 2011 From: jenandnixon at gmail.com (Jen And Nixon) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:27:01 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Raiser's Edge In-Reply-To: <84327DBCB9E64AADB71533E550136703@OwnerPC> References: <84327DBCB9E64AADB71533E550136703@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Also, I'm aware GDB uses this software as well. I'm in a non profit volunteer job in Canada and raiser's edge is used as well. I look forward to hearing any feedback on it's accessibility. Thanks so much Jen M Sent from my iPhone On 2011-05-25, at 1:25 PM, wrote: > Brice, > I asked around and asked a computer programmer the same questions. I'm looking to get a job in the nonprofit sector and this came up. > Raisor's edge is semi accessible last I heard. Maybe call the NFB technology department for more info or call blackbaud. > You might have to try it out and see how accessible it is. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Brice Smith > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:34 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Raiser's Edge > > Hi, > > Has anyone here used or worked with Raiser's Edge by Blackbaud for > nonprofits? Google brings me to a discussion in 2003 where someone > indicated the program was semi-accessible with Jaws or other screen > reading technology, but things may have drastically changed in eight > years. > > Thanks, > > Brice > > -- > Brice Smith > North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations > Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jenandnixon%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thu May 26 00:49:48 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:49:48 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Raiser's Edge In-Reply-To: References: <84327DBCB9E64AADB71533E550136703@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashly brings up a good resource in the access department at the national center. You can E-mail them at access at nfb.org Best of Luck, Darian On 5/25/11, Jen And Nixon wrote: > Also, I'm aware GDB uses this software as well. I'm in a non profit > volunteer job in Canada and raiser's edge is used as well. I look forward to > hearing any feedback on it's accessibility. > > Thanks so much > > Jen M > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 2011-05-25, at 1:25 PM, wrote: > >> Brice, >> I asked around and asked a computer programmer the same questions. I'm >> looking to get a job in the nonprofit sector and this came up. >> Raisor's edge is semi accessible last I heard. Maybe call the NFB >> technology department for more info or call blackbaud. >> You might have to try it out and see how accessible it is. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Brice Smith >> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:34 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Raiser's Edge >> >> Hi, >> >> Has anyone here used or worked with Raiser's Edge by Blackbaud for >> nonprofits? Google brings me to a discussion in 2003 where someone >> indicated the program was semi-accessible with Jaws or other screen >> reading technology, but things may have drastically changed in eight >> years. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Brice >> >> -- >> Brice Smith >> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jenandnixon%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From humbertoa5369 at netzero.net Thu May 26 01:23:48 2011 From: humbertoa5369 at netzero.net (Humberto) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:23:48 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? Message-ID: Hello dear listers, I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are concerned. So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the blind person can become a competent member of society by doing everything else that a sighted person can do. I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in touch. would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a characteristic? Will she understand that? I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, and having high expectations. But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick with one or not. Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? Cheers, Humberto From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thu May 26 01:27:09 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:27:09 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? In-Reply-To: <4ddd732f.4f76e50a.3ce3.030f@mx.google.com> References: <4ddd732f.4f76e50a.3ce3.030f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I suppose since I asked the question, I should probably answer it as well. I got involved with the NFB at-large, and then eventually got involved with nabs . I watched the list for years and then kind of faded away because I didn't know if it all made sense to me, or if this was where the people I identified with were. People in this organization had a way of bringing me back into the fold just when I was ready to give up, on account of not having a connection with folks. i Have to say that because of each person who has taken the time to talk to me about the organization or befriend me, I'm still here and deeply appreciate it all. I, like everyone else has said, appreciates the thoughts opinions and points of view that people have here and feel in some small way connected to the people here. Some of you I've met, probably alot of you I will meet, and others I probably will never meet, but I think I've benifited from the words of each of you, and have become wiser for them. One of the most amazing things I've been able to be a part of is our anual meeting at convention because of the great energy in the room. That energy it's self is enough to energize you for a year- though conventionjust gets you that much more amped lol. I know there is work to do in our states, students to encourage, people to educate and much more than what I could mention in one sitting. Because of those things I love not only participating in the discussions but being a part of the work that we do. I don't know if this does much to answer anything, but it's what I got! lol. Darian On 5/25/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > I agree, Angelina. That's why I joined NABS as well! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 21:53:28 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? > > I joined nabs to learn from other blind students as well as > hoping to do what I can to change societies misconceptions of > blindness. The list has been a valuable sounding board for > questions over the years. > > Anjelina > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 24, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Darian Smith > wrote: > > Hey all, > I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of > nabs? > Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions > and > more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want > to be > involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post > messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings > at > Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you > contribute > to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of > your > state division. > If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I > missed. > Thanks! > Darian > > p.s. I am seriously curious :) > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac > 26%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From Inquire at YBResourceful.com Thu May 26 02:25:38 2011 From: Inquire at YBResourceful.com (Front Desk of the YB RESOURCEFUL Consulting Talents(YBRCT)-A Resourceful Consulting ToolBox www.YBResourceful.com) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 22:25:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] your messages are getting... nabs-l Digest, Vol 55, Issue 50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greetings everyone: Just wanted to let you know, that some of you have really messages on certain topics. You should consider calling the person on phone/and instent messenging and talk more on the topic with them, rather than posting million lines of words on a group mailing. Thanks, avoid typing long lines of thoughts/responses-for ease of reading other people' posting. -Yegue -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 7:16 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: nabs-l Digest, Vol 55, Issue 50 Send nabs-l mailing list submissions to nabs-l at nfbnet.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org You can reach the person managing the list at nabs-l-owner at nfbnet.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of nabs-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare (Kevin Fjelsted) 2. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare (Jorge Paez) 3. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare (Kirt Manwaring) 4. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare (Kirt Manwaring) 5. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare (Jorge Paez) 6. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare (Kirt Manwaring) 7. Re: Android and Mobile Accessibility (Kirt Manwaring) 8. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare (Jorge Paez) 9. Re: Android and Mobile Accessibility (Jorge Paez) 10. Re: Android and Mobile Accessibility (Jorge Paez) 11. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare (Jorge Paez) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:27:15 -0500 From: Kevin Fjelsted To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think that defeats the purpose of availability and accessible. Why would I want to go to a DS organization if I didn't have to? It is bad enough that I need to go to them if I can't find another way to get the material but if it is already prepared I shouldn't have to go to them at all. SO what ever source catalogs the titles and content should be available to us. That is why BookShare which is already setup could do that very quickly. -Kevin :) On May 25, 2011, at 5:07 PM, wrote: > No, you have to go through DSS. > > -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Fjelsted > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:01 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > Does Access text store the content as well? > Can we access it as individuals and search and download the content? > > -Kevin > On May 25, 2011, at 4:24 PM, wrote: > >> Access text. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:36:57 -0400 From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Message-ID: <78C8C1FF-3D07-4ADD-B90A-946BFAA943E3 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Kirt: Amen! We have to watch out for the phylosofical trap here--at one time we were second class, now we have to realize that we either join the sighted as first class citizens, or not, but if we do its equal responsibility. I like Hard braille stuff myself--I couldn't see myself reading my Chemistry, or Geometry book on the BN. However, I do think bookshare will fade simply because it'll be replaced by mainstream sources. Its the rule of supply and demand--when there is more supply, there is less demand. In this case, now that more mainstream channels are opening up to us, Bookshare and digital services like it will become irrelevant. On May 24, 2011, at 11:39 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > To all, > First off, before I get roasted for disagreeing with you guys, I > want to say that braille is absolutely critical. My biggest regret > about my education so far (aside from my terrible habbit to > procrastinate stuff), is that I've started using braille less and less > and audio more and more. I really think it's damaged my learning and > put me at a disadvantage and, while I'm still a great braille reader, > I don't use it much as I ought to. That said, braille has helped me > with spelling, grammar, imagination, and learning through reading > rather than listening. I'm going to start relying on it more again > and I guarantee my writing and reading comprehention will go from good > to amazing-it's happened before and, so help me, I'm going to get back > what I've lost by relegating braille to a back seat behind my > computer. > That being said, braille access to books from mainstream sources is > increasing at a tremendous rate. I can use my apex as a braille > display on my ITouch to read books I purchase via Ibooks. I'm going > to make the prediction that, at some point within the next several > years, using a notetaker or a braille display to read Kindel books > will be practical-it's just a guess, but I'd be surprised if five > years go by and I'm wrong. With KNFB developing the BLIO reader, I > have no doubt support for braille displays will be integrated before > too long. Reading books in mainstream formats on a braille display is > already doable, braille and I think it will only expand. The way I > see it, the ease of reading ebooks on a braille display, as well as > the number of formats we'll be able to read on a braille display, will > only increase. > Now to address the philosophical point this article brings up. I > totally agree with the author here. If we want to be treated as > equals, we have to understand we need to demand equal responsibilities > along with equal rights. I don't see public libraries going away, > lots of people like their hardcopy books. Therefore I don't see NLS > going away as a lender of paper braille books. I still like reading > paper braille from time to time and there are plenty of blind people > who aren't very computer literate. People still like buying print > hardcovers and paperbooks; in that same vain, I don't see the National > Braille Press going away. But sighted people don't get free ebooks, > why should we? It used to be that we needed them because they were > the only ebooks we could read with a braille display, not so anymore. > If we're going to be true to our philosophy as Federationists, it's > not fair for us to want preferential treatment here. Do we really > mean it when we say we want to be equal citizens? If we do, it's high > time we start paying an equal price, especially since it's not that > hard to read ebooks on a braille display, if we know what we're doing, > and it's only going to get easier as programs such as the Blio and > Kindle improve their access. I say we'll only be treated like > everyone else when we realize that equality isn't an extra handout, it > isn't just a change in society's attitudes towards us, but it's mostly > an acceptence of the responsibilities that come with first-class > citizenship! And getting ebooks for free or at a very steap discount, > while everyone else has to pay, is definitely not an equal > responsibility. Who's with me? > All the best, > Kirt > > On 5/24/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Hi Kerry, >> Interesting question. Yes we do have more access to mainstream books >> through >> comericial audio like audible.com and Random House has recorded books and >> Amozon has many recorded books too. >> That said I do not see NLS going away for a long time. As others said, >> there is still a place for a hard copy braille book, despite technology. >> You can only get certain things on braille paper such as paragraphs >> structure that you cannot get on a linear display. You can take a >> braille >> book anywhere and its durable. Besides not everyone is tech savy or has a >> braille display on their notetaker if they own one. >> >> As to bookshare, I'm not so sure of that. >> Part of me thinks it will go away. If electronic books become accessible >> from distributors and publishers, then why would anyone need bookshare? >> That is a source of electronic books after all. If we all can read books >> via >> our computers or hook a braille display to the PC to read, then that >> serves >> the same purpose of bookkshare. >> >> But if bookshare comes to a demise, I do not see that happening for a >> long >> time. It will be a slow decline of users. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jorge Paez >> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:17 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >> >> I think Bookshare will go away. >> Yes, you can read books with a braille display, if you have an iPhone 4 >> or >> above. >> And also: can't you use your notetaker with the PC as a braille display? >> I don't see NLS going any time soon just for the braille books. >> They might move away from audio/online, but the braille books are still >> valuable. >> I, like you, want to read the digital stuff on a display too. >> >> On May 24, 2011, at 8:42 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote: >> >>> Hey Guys: >>> >>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >>> to get your thoughts. >>> >>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>> the NLS library service should go away. >>> >>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>> >>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>> >>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>> >>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>> >>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>> reading. >>> >>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>> >>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>> away completely. >>> >>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>> purposes. >>> >>> Kerri >>> >>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>> >>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>> with whom I?ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>> impaired community. >>> >>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let?s take a quick look at just >>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>> question. >>> >>> ?In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>> materials in accessible formats. >>> ?Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>> ?Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>> commercial solutions like Apple?s iBooks and Amazon?s Kindle provide >>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>> including mobile phones. >>> ?Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>> ?Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these >>> bodies. >>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>> >>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>> treatment?" >>> >>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>> >>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>> >>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>> none who would argue that point. >>> >>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>> media such as music or movies. >>> >>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>> >>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD?s like everyone else? >>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn?t worth as much as we pay >>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>> college? >>> >>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>> >>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I?m >>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don?t we open >>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>> >>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>> just $229 USD? This isn?t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >>> the BookSense. Wouldn?t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>> books for their hard work? >>> >>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>> printed materials handed over for free? >>> >>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>> >>> I know which outcome I?m hoping for. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:42:47 -0600 From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Bryce, Absolutely-if you buy the book, they rip it up to scan the dang thing, no problem keeping the technology. Kevin, I guess I don't know nemeth as much as I thought I did...but there's still the question of venn diagrams and the like. Not everyone can afford a $6000 embosser...careful now-you don't want to sound elitist. ;) While I agree that lots of blind people get atatched to their technology, provided by rehab, and while I'm as guilty as anyone there I suppose, that's not the real issue here. If you're going to read bookshare books, you need that expensive technology anyhow. At least you do if you're going to read the books with refreshable braille...so we're all elitists there I guess. True, not every blind person has access to this technology-this presents as much of a problem for accessing bookshare books as it does for accessing blio or Ibooks with a braille display. Same problem either way-the braille display costs a crapload of money regardless. If you can't get it (and I have many blind friends who can't), bookshare probably isn't a viable option for you unless you're using the synthetic speech of FS Reader built in with jaws...oh, wait! Jaws costs a crapload of money too! Whatever happened to good old fashioned paper braille for that kind of situation? Or, at the very least, volunteer readers? I know they're terrible sometimes but, when you're in that situation where you don't have the technology, you can't get the technology, you don't have the skills to read paper braille and you have no other options...you do what you can. I have friends who are pretty much out of luck because they don't know braille, they aren't trying to learn braille, they can't work through rehab and they have no money for technology. There are still options without all this fancy technology from rehab-namely paper braille and volunteer readers. Getting rid of bookshare's free access would only effect those with the expensive technology to read books-they (we) would have to pay just like everyone else and we're the blind people most able to do so because we have all this fancy technology which cost a fortune. Even if it came through rehab, there's always SSI for students like me. Those without the means to afford or get braille displays or expensive daisy players wouldn't be hurt anyways...bookshare, like Itouches or audible.com, is beyond their means anyhow. Sorry if I sound calous-like I said, I have lots of dear friends in that situation and I'm not judging them. But those are the facts, ladies and gentlemen, take them for what they're worth. Warmly, Kirt On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Kirt, > Nls does not fine you. But at least what I seen they mail you notices to > return your overdue braille or talking books til you return them. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:27 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > Ashley, > You're supposed to return a cd from learning ally-I think I still > have some old ones from years ago hiding in my room somewhere, and > noone's so much as sent me a notice so I'm not sure how much that's > actually enforced. NLS enforces that policy pretty good-except there > aren't fines or anything for lost books...they just put it in as > "lost" in their files and that's the end of that. Don't ask me how I > know...suffice it to say that, were I a user of regular libraries, I'd > have a lot less money to play with. *grin* So no, the return > policies aren't exactly the same, at least as they're enforced in real > life. Oh-and for the record, my days of losing library books ended a > long time ago. Mostly. > Best, > Kirt > > On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Kevin, >> There are some textbooks for which bookshare isn't all that >> practical. For instance, I took a logic class last semester where >> they used all sorts of symbols that aren't in any braille code...I >> kind of had to make my own personal logic-braille. (which I mostly >> used on paper because there just weren't symbols in the braille code >> for what I needed) Bookshare couldn't handle those kinds of books. >> From my understanding, Mike was talking about the technical aspect >> more than the legal aspect. (i.e, rendering books like my logic book >> accessible in electronic braille). Mike, am I understanding you >> wrong? >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/25/11, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>> I actually don't think it would take any new laws. >>> I think the department of education could write the regulations for this >>> based on existing law. >>> The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper >>> regulations. >>> The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes from >>> the >>> federal government. >>> So if the department of education and the other agencies combined there >>> efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to >>> provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that >>> they >>> need to convert. >>> The department of education doesn't need to build another database or >>> storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare. >>> -Kevin >>> >>> >>> On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> >>>> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical >>>> materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such >>>> strictures >>>> on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract. >>>> >>>> Mike Freeman >>>> sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>>> >>>>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be to >>>>> work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any >>>>> University >>>>> or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability >>>>> services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS >>>>> department creates to BookShare. >>>>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books >>>>> would >>>>> be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. >>>>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and >>>>> cataloging of accessible books. >>>>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of >>>>> funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge >>>>> funding >>>>> to disability services this process if mandated by the federal >>>>> government >>>>> could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and >>>>> insure >>>>> that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as >>>>> well as the actual book itself. >>>>> >>>>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that are >>>>> available in accessible format or loose there federal disability >>>>> funding >>>>> then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on >>>>> BookShare. >>>>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and provide >>>>> a >>>>> common format that we can use across the various devices and >>>>> accessible >>>>> software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray >>>>> that I can find an accessible version. >>>>> >>>>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there >>>>> is >>>>> not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to >>>>> create accessible material. >>>>> -Kevin >>>>> >>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of >>>>>> books >>>>>> via NLS or bookshare. >>>>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or >>>>>> cheap >>>>>> online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes >>>>>> novels >>>>>> are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook readers >>>>>> are accessible. >>>>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they >>>>>> silenced speech? >>>>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And >>>>>> as >>>>>> a >>>>>> personal example, my library has ebooks too. >>>>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws >>>>>> was >>>>>> only reading the title, not the entire page! >>>>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If >>>>>> ebook >>>>>> readers were actually accessible, then we can think about eliminating >>>>>> what you call preferential treatment. >>>>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks >>>>>> and >>>>>> myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>> >>>>>> Steve, >>>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally >>>>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>>>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>>>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, >>>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>> Steve, >>>>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't >>>>>>> it? >>>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, >>>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of >>>>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>>>>> literary braille. >>>>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is >>>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of >>>>>>> course >>>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and >>>>>>> braille >>>>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some >>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> novel, for >>>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We >>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>> access >>>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream >>>>>>>> titles, >>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and >>>>>>>> math >>>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This >>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> be that >>>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in >>>>>>>> textbooks. >>>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> concentrate on making >>>>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final >>>>>>>> product >>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> already >>>>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to >>>>>>>> create >>>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just >>>>>>>> taking >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> same text >>>>>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> name >>>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know >>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>> sort >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The >>>>>>>> industry >>>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if >>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is >>>>>>>> hard >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have >>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>> hope, >>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer >>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case >>>>>>>> eventually. >>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to >>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>>>>> yesterday >>>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible >>>>>>>> PDF's >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology >>>>>>>> goes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. >>>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? >>>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook >>>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not >>>>>>>>> become >>>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a >>>>>>>>> bit >>>>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know >>>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving >>>>>>>>> fast >>>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those >>>>>>>>> expensive >>>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology >>>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or >>>>>>>>> coursesmart >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>>>>>> BookShare >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that >>>>>>>>>> quality >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and >>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility >>>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of >>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>>>>>> textbooks >>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> hands >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a >>>>>>>>>> dedicated >>>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the >>>>>>>>>> point >>>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or >>>>>>>>>> RFB&D >>>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be >>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your >>>>>>>>>> notetaker >>>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too >>>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we >>>>>>>>>> use >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far >>>>>>>>>> off), >>>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last >>>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library >>>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every >>>>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just >>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read >>>>>>>>>>> mainstream >>>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a >>>>>>>>>>> tremendous >>>>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a >>>>>>>>>>> library >>>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille >>>>>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people >>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar >>>>>>>>>>> bookstores >>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone >>>>>>>>>>> else. >>>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already >>>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have >>>>>>>>>>> options >>>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone >>>>>>>>>>> else >>>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about >>>>>>>>>>> this-please >>>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted >>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or >>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on >>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. >>>>>>>>>>>> No, >>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just >>>>>>>>>>>> embossed >>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can >>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>> mean >>>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download >>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the >>>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. >>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't >>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, >>>>>>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away >>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. >>>>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random >>>>>>>>>>>> things, >>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my >>>>>>>>>>>> rambles. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to >>>>>>>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire >>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, >>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental >>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of >>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure >>>>>>>>>>>>> trove >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at >>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I >>>>>>>>>>>>> immediately >>>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure >>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved >>>>>>>>>>>>> towards >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Josh >>>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> future? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>> books. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those >>>>>>>>>>>>>> voices >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into >>>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>> app >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> couple >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why >>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> several >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic >>>>>>>>>>>>>> one. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now >>>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> students >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contrast, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume >>>>>>>>>>>>>> large >>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital >>>>>>>>>>>>>> retailer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats >>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons >>>>>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> No >>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferential >>>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sharply. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 93% >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> past. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who >>>>>>>>>>>>>> regularly, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid >>>>>>>>>>>>>> readers >>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving >>>>>>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> integrated >>>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like >>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructional >>>>>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar >>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high >>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would >>>>>>>>>>>>>> love a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less >>>>>>>>>>>>>> capable >>>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>> starting >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPod >>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users >>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining >>>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies >>>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet >>>>>>>>>>>>>> balks >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> extension >>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> move >>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public >>>>>>>>>>>>> Relations >>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in >>>>>>>>>>>> Opera >>>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of >>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding >>>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have >>>>>>>>>>>> eternal >>>>>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:44:37 -0600 From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Bryce, I meant to say it's not a problem keeping the computer file of the textbooks you buy. Can you tell I'm wrunning on like no sleep? On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Bryce, > Absolutely-if you buy the book, they rip it up to scan the dang > thing, no problem keeping the technology. > Kevin, > I guess I don't know nemeth as much as I thought I did...but there's > still the question of venn diagrams and the like. Not everyone can > afford a $6000 embosser...careful now-you don't want to sound elitist. > ;) > While I agree that lots of blind people get atatched to their > technology, provided by rehab, and while I'm as guilty as anyone there > I suppose, that's not the real issue here. If you're going to read > bookshare books, you need that expensive technology anyhow. At least > you do if you're going to read the books with refreshable braille...so > we're all elitists there I guess. True, not every blind person has > access to this technology-this presents as much of a problem for > accessing bookshare books as it does for accessing blio or Ibooks with > a braille display. Same problem either way-the braille display costs > a crapload of money regardless. If you can't get it (and I have many > blind friends who can't), bookshare probably isn't a viable option for > you unless you're using the synthetic speech of FS Reader built in > with jaws...oh, wait! Jaws costs a crapload of money too! Whatever > happened to good old fashioned paper braille for that kind of > situation? Or, at the very least, volunteer readers? I know they're > terrible sometimes but, when you're in that situation where you don't > have the technology, you can't get the technology, you don't have the > skills to read paper braille and you have no other options...you do > what you can. I have friends who are pretty much out of luck because > they don't know braille, they aren't trying to learn braille, they > can't work through rehab and they have no money for technology. There > are still options without all this fancy technology from rehab-namely > paper braille and volunteer readers. Getting rid of bookshare's free > access would only effect those with the expensive technology to read > books-they (we) would have to pay just like everyone else and we're > the blind people most able to do so because we have all this fancy > technology which cost a fortune. Even if it came through rehab, > there's always SSI for students like me. Those without the means to > afford or get braille displays or expensive daisy players wouldn't be > hurt anyways...bookshare, like Itouches or audible.com, is beyond > their means anyhow. Sorry if I sound calous-like I said, I have lots > of dear friends in that situation and I'm not judging them. But those > are the facts, ladies and gentlemen, take them for what they're worth. > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Kirt, >> Nls does not fine you. But at least what I seen they mail you notices to >> return your overdue braille or talking books til you return them. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:27 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >> >> Ashley, >> You're supposed to return a cd from learning ally-I think I still >> have some old ones from years ago hiding in my room somewhere, and >> noone's so much as sent me a notice so I'm not sure how much that's >> actually enforced. NLS enforces that policy pretty good-except there >> aren't fines or anything for lost books...they just put it in as >> "lost" in their files and that's the end of that. Don't ask me how I >> know...suffice it to say that, were I a user of regular libraries, I'd >> have a lot less money to play with. *grin* So no, the return >> policies aren't exactly the same, at least as they're enforced in real >> life. Oh-and for the record, my days of losing library books ended a >> long time ago. Mostly. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Kevin, >>> There are some textbooks for which bookshare isn't all that >>> practical. For instance, I took a logic class last semester where >>> they used all sorts of symbols that aren't in any braille code...I >>> kind of had to make my own personal logic-braille. (which I mostly >>> used on paper because there just weren't symbols in the braille code >>> for what I needed) Bookshare couldn't handle those kinds of books. >>> From my understanding, Mike was talking about the technical aspect >>> more than the legal aspect. (i.e, rendering books like my logic book >>> accessible in electronic braille). Mike, am I understanding you >>> wrong? >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/25/11, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>>> I actually don't think it would take any new laws. >>>> I think the department of education could write the regulations for >>>> this >>>> based on existing law. >>>> The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper >>>> regulations. >>>> The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes >>>> from >>>> the >>>> federal government. >>>> So if the department of education and the other agencies combined there >>>> efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to >>>> provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that >>>> they >>>> need to convert. >>>> The department of education doesn't need to build another database or >>>> storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare. >>>> -Kevin >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>> >>>>> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical >>>>> materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such >>>>> strictures >>>>> on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract. >>>>> >>>>> Mike Freeman >>>>> sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be >>>>>> to >>>>>> work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any >>>>>> University >>>>>> or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability >>>>>> services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS >>>>>> department creates to BookShare. >>>>>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books >>>>>> would >>>>>> be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. >>>>>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and >>>>>> cataloging of accessible books. >>>>>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of >>>>>> funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge >>>>>> funding >>>>>> to disability services this process if mandated by the federal >>>>>> government >>>>>> could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and >>>>>> insure >>>>>> that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as >>>>>> well as the actual book itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that >>>>>> are >>>>>> available in accessible format or loose there federal disability >>>>>> funding >>>>>> then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on >>>>>> BookShare. >>>>>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and >>>>>> provide >>>>>> a >>>>>> common format that we can use across the various devices and >>>>>> accessible >>>>>> software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray >>>>>> that I can find an accessible version. >>>>>> >>>>>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there >>>>>> is >>>>>> not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to >>>>>> create accessible material. >>>>>> -Kevin >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of >>>>>>> books >>>>>>> via NLS or bookshare. >>>>>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or >>>>>>> cheap >>>>>>> online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes >>>>>>> novels >>>>>>> are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook >>>>>>> readers >>>>>>> are accessible. >>>>>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they >>>>>>> silenced speech? >>>>>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> personal example, my library has ebooks too. >>>>>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> only reading the title, not the entire page! >>>>>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If >>>>>>> ebook >>>>>>> readers were actually accessible, then we can think about >>>>>>> eliminating >>>>>>> what you call preferential treatment. >>>>>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve, >>>>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>>>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>>>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning >>>>>>> ally >>>>>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>>>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>>>>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>>>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>>>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare >>>>>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to >>>>>>> me, >>>>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>> Steve, >>>>>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't >>>>>>>> it? >>>>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its >>>>>>>> annoyances, >>>>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>>>>>> literary braille. >>>>>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>>>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of >>>>>>>> course >>>>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it >>>>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and >>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility >>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some >>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> novel, for >>>>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We >>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>> access >>>>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream >>>>>>>>> titles, >>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and >>>>>>>>> math >>>>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This >>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> be that >>>>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in >>>>>>>>> textbooks. >>>>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally >>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>> concentrate on making >>>>>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final >>>>>>>>> product >>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> already >>>>>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> create >>>>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just >>>>>>>>> taking >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> same text >>>>>>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> name >>>>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know >>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>> sort >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. >>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>> industry >>>>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if >>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is >>>>>>>>> hard >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have >>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>> hope, >>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer >>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case >>>>>>>>> eventually. >>>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to >>>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>>>>>> yesterday >>>>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible >>>>>>>>> PDF's >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology >>>>>>>>> goes. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too >>>>>>>>>> hard. >>>>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks >>>>>>>>>> premature? >>>>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an >>>>>>>>>> ebook >>>>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not >>>>>>>>>> become >>>>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> bit >>>>>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys >>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving >>>>>>>>>> fast >>>>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read >>>>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to >>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those >>>>>>>>>> expensive >>>>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same >>>>>>>>>> technology >>>>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or >>>>>>>>>> coursesmart >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to >>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very >>>>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>>>>>>> BookShare >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that >>>>>>>>>>> quality >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process >>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and >>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it >>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility >>>>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of >>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>>>>>>> textbooks >>>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> hands >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a >>>>>>>>>>> dedicated >>>>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the >>>>>>>>>>> point >>>>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or >>>>>>>>>>> RFB&D >>>>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll >>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your >>>>>>>>>>> notetaker >>>>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out >>>>>>>>>>> there, >>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be >>>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we >>>>>>>>>>> use >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical >>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far >>>>>>>>>>> off), >>>>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last >>>>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books >>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library >>>>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every >>>>>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just >>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of >>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read >>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a >>>>>>>>>>>> tremendous >>>>>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a >>>>>>>>>>>> library >>>>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille >>>>>>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people >>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar >>>>>>>>>>>> bookstores >>>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone >>>>>>>>>>>> else. >>>>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already >>>>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have >>>>>>>>>>>> options >>>>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone >>>>>>>>>>>> else >>>>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, >>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about >>>>>>>>>>>> this-please >>>>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted >>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or >>>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on >>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. >>>>>>>>>>>>> No, >>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just >>>>>>>>>>>>> embossed >>>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can >>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It >>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>>> mean >>>>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download >>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. >>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't >>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, >>>>>>>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken >>>>>>>>>>>>> away >>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? >>>>>>>>>>>>> No. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random >>>>>>>>>>>>> things, >>>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my >>>>>>>>>>>>> rambles. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire >>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental >>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure >>>>>>>>>>>>>> trove >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> immediately >>>>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved >>>>>>>>>>>>>> towards >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Josh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voices >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> students >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contrast, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> large >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> retailer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raises, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferential >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sharply. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 93% >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regularly, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> read. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> readers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> integrated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructional >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> love a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individuals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> starting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPod >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extension >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> move >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relations >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in >>>>>>>>>>>>> Opera >>>>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of >>>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding >>>>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have >>>>>>>>>>>>> eternal >>>>>>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:45:02 -0400 From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Sally: I see what you're saying. Perhaps creating a mandatory system in which all publishers can deliver an accessible version of the e-books to the hands of the department of education might be a good idea. Or, that the department of education have the chance to order accessible versions if those don't exist in the regular marketplace. On May 25, 2011, at 7:19 AM, Sally Thomas wrote: > There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce > accessible textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process > need to translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and > more books are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it > would be foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility > first when designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of > accessible textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 > textbooks accessible. > > Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the hands > of blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated > process for producing quality braille. > > Sally Thomas > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > > One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), > Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point > where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D > audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too > long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker > or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it > just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that > trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long > until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to > read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as > using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), > I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our > hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few > posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get > ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are > probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't > as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I > download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like > every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of > getting them on a silver platter > I'm done now, > Kirt > > On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Julie, >> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >> honestly don't know what is. >> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >> With respect, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>> >>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>> order hard copy books. >>> >>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. >>> >>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>> >>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I >>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and >>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, >>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>> problem with this article: >>>> >>>> ": >>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of >>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those >>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS >>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>> >>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>> >>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would >>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. >>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as >>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>> sighted individuals. >>>> >>>> Brice >>>> >>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>> >>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted >>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of >>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should >>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's >>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and >>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>> >>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>> >>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone >>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display >>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in >>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>> >>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle >>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for >>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>> reading. >>>>> >>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for >>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>> >>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went >>>>> away completely. >>>>> >>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion >>>>> purposes. >>>>> >>>>> Kerri >>>>> >>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the >>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we >>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, >>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>> >>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people >>>>> with whom I?ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one >>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually >>>>> impaired community. >>>>> >>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let?s take a quick look at just >>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>> question. >>>>> >>>>> ?In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with >>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with >>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing >>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>> ?Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these >>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>> ?Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable >>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>> commercial solutions like Apple?s iBooks and Amazon?s Kindle provide >>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>> ?Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a >>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove >>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>> ?Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>> these >>>>> bodies. >>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, >>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in >>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>> >>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. >>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired >>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>> treatment?" >>>>> >>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise >>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in >>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>> >>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of >>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>> >>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible >>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the >>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find >>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>> >>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline >>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask >>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or >>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>> >>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those >>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a >>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>> >>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired >>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially >>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, >>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD?s like everyone else? >>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text >>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn?t worth as much as we pay >>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community >>>>> college? >>>>> >>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>> >>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I?m >>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don?t we open >>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>> >>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than >>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available >>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users >>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. >>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens >>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>> just $229 USD? This isn?t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch >>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, >>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from >>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn?t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately >>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>> >>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community >>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon >>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at >>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our >>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>> >>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal >>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>> >>>>> I know which outcome I?m hoping for. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Brice Smith >>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Julie McG >>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>> Eyes for the Blind >>> >>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>> life." >>> John 3:16 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:48:42 -0600 From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Kevin, I almost agree with you. If you were required to pay a price comparable to market value for the textbooks you got from bookshare, I'd be more willing to jump on board. My only reservation would be that not everyone who reads bookshare books can electronically manage books like my logic textbook or those pesky math books, and DSS offices wouldn't want to reproduce something that's already out there in an alternate format. Even with all your fancy technology for reading that electronic logic book in nemeth, I'd prefer the braille logic textbook my DSS office made for me any day. Respectfully, Kirt On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Bryce, > I meant to say it's not a problem keeping the computer file of the > textbooks you buy. Can you tell I'm wrunning on like no sleep? > > On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Bryce, >> Absolutely-if you buy the book, they rip it up to scan the dang >> thing, no problem keeping the technology. >> Kevin, >> I guess I don't know nemeth as much as I thought I did...but there's >> still the question of venn diagrams and the like. Not everyone can >> afford a $6000 embosser...careful now-you don't want to sound elitist. >> ;) >> While I agree that lots of blind people get atatched to their >> technology, provided by rehab, and while I'm as guilty as anyone there >> I suppose, that's not the real issue here. If you're going to read >> bookshare books, you need that expensive technology anyhow. At least >> you do if you're going to read the books with refreshable braille...so >> we're all elitists there I guess. True, not every blind person has >> access to this technology-this presents as much of a problem for >> accessing bookshare books as it does for accessing blio or Ibooks with >> a braille display. Same problem either way-the braille display costs >> a crapload of money regardless. If you can't get it (and I have many >> blind friends who can't), bookshare probably isn't a viable option for >> you unless you're using the synthetic speech of FS Reader built in >> with jaws...oh, wait! Jaws costs a crapload of money too! Whatever >> happened to good old fashioned paper braille for that kind of >> situation? Or, at the very least, volunteer readers? I know they're >> terrible sometimes but, when you're in that situation where you don't >> have the technology, you can't get the technology, you don't have the >> skills to read paper braille and you have no other options...you do >> what you can. I have friends who are pretty much out of luck because >> they don't know braille, they aren't trying to learn braille, they >> can't work through rehab and they have no money for technology. There >> are still options without all this fancy technology from rehab-namely >> paper braille and volunteer readers. Getting rid of bookshare's free >> access would only effect those with the expensive technology to read >> books-they (we) would have to pay just like everyone else and we're >> the blind people most able to do so because we have all this fancy >> technology which cost a fortune. Even if it came through rehab, >> there's always SSI for students like me. Those without the means to >> afford or get braille displays or expensive daisy players wouldn't be >> hurt anyways...bookshare, like Itouches or audible.com, is beyond >> their means anyhow. Sorry if I sound calous-like I said, I have lots >> of dear friends in that situation and I'm not judging them. But those >> are the facts, ladies and gentlemen, take them for what they're worth. >> Warmly, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>> Kirt, >>> Nls does not fine you. But at least what I seen they mail you notices to >>> return your overdue braille or talking books til you return them. >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kirt Manwaring >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:27 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>> Bookshare >>> >>> Ashley, >>> You're supposed to return a cd from learning ally-I think I still >>> have some old ones from years ago hiding in my room somewhere, and >>> noone's so much as sent me a notice so I'm not sure how much that's >>> actually enforced. NLS enforces that policy pretty good-except there >>> aren't fines or anything for lost books...they just put it in as >>> "lost" in their files and that's the end of that. Don't ask me how I >>> know...suffice it to say that, were I a user of regular libraries, I'd >>> have a lot less money to play with. *grin* So no, the return >>> policies aren't exactly the same, at least as they're enforced in real >>> life. Oh-and for the record, my days of losing library books ended a >>> long time ago. Mostly. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Kevin, >>>> There are some textbooks for which bookshare isn't all that >>>> practical. For instance, I took a logic class last semester where >>>> they used all sorts of symbols that aren't in any braille code...I >>>> kind of had to make my own personal logic-braille. (which I mostly >>>> used on paper because there just weren't symbols in the braille code >>>> for what I needed) Bookshare couldn't handle those kinds of books. >>>> From my understanding, Mike was talking about the technical aspect >>>> more than the legal aspect. (i.e, rendering books like my logic book >>>> accessible in electronic braille). Mike, am I understanding you >>>> wrong? >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/25/11, Kevin Fjelsted wrote: >>>>> I actually don't think it would take any new laws. >>>>> I think the department of education could write the regulations for >>>>> this >>>>> based on existing law. >>>>> The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper >>>>> regulations. >>>>> The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes >>>>> from >>>>> the >>>>> federal government. >>>>> So if the department of education and the other agencies combined >>>>> there >>>>> efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to >>>>> provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that >>>>> they >>>>> need to convert. >>>>> The department of education doesn't need to build another database or >>>>> storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare. >>>>> -Kevin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical >>>>>> materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such >>>>>> strictures >>>>>> on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike Freeman >>>>>> sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any >>>>>>> University >>>>>>> or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability >>>>>>> services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS >>>>>>> department creates to BookShare. >>>>>>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> be scanned and uploaded by volunteers. >>>>>>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and >>>>>>> cataloging of accessible books. >>>>>>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of >>>>>>> funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge >>>>>>> funding >>>>>>> to disability services this process if mandated by the federal >>>>>>> government >>>>>>> could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and >>>>>>> insure >>>>>>> that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> well as the actual book itself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> available in accessible format or loose there federal disability >>>>>>> funding >>>>>>> then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on >>>>>>> BookShare. >>>>>>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and >>>>>>> provide >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> common format that we can use across the various devices and >>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>> software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and >>>>>>> pray >>>>>>> that I can find an accessible version. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> create accessible material. >>>>>>> -Kevin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of >>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>> via NLS or bookshare. >>>>>>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or >>>>>>>> cheap >>>>>>>> online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes >>>>>>>> novels >>>>>>>> are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook >>>>>>>> readers >>>>>>>> are accessible. >>>>>>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they >>>>>>>> silenced speech? >>>>>>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> personal example, my library has ebooks too. >>>>>>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> only reading the title, not the entire page! >>>>>>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If >>>>>>>> ebook >>>>>>>> readers were actually accessible, then we can think about >>>>>>>> eliminating >>>>>>>> what you call preferential treatment. >>>>>>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the >>>>>>>> ebooks >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve, >>>>>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to >>>>>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we >>>>>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning >>>>>>>> ally >>>>>>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of >>>>>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook >>>>>>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our >>>>>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them >>>>>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from >>>>>>>> bookshare >>>>>>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to >>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks. >>>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>> Steve, >>>>>>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too >>>>>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math >>>>>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't >>>>>>>>> it? >>>>>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its >>>>>>>>> annoyances, >>>>>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation >>>>>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I >>>>>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even >>>>>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll >>>>>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or >>>>>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with >>>>>>>>> literary braille. >>>>>>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about >>>>>>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of >>>>>>>>> course >>>>>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and >>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't >>>>>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility >>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. >>>>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some >>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> novel, for >>>>>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We >>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>> access >>>>>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream >>>>>>>>>> titles, >>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and >>>>>>>>>> math >>>>>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. >>>>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> be that >>>>>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in >>>>>>>>>> textbooks. >>>>>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally >>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>> concentrate on making >>>>>>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final >>>>>>>>>> product >>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> already >>>>>>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> create >>>>>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just >>>>>>>>>> taking >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> same text >>>>>>>>>> and making it available in another format. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the >>>>>>>>>> tools >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>> name >>>>>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know >>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>> sort >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. >>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>> industry >>>>>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if >>>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is >>>>>>>>>> hard >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have >>>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>>> hope, >>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer >>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case >>>>>>>>>> eventually. >>>>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to >>>>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor >>>>>>>>>> yesterday >>>>>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible >>>>>>>>>> PDF's >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where >>>>>>>>>> technology >>>>>>>>>> goes. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Steve and Mike, >>>>>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too >>>>>>>>>>> hard. >>>>>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks >>>>>>>>>>> premature? >>>>>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio >>>>>>>>>>> reader >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an >>>>>>>>>>> ebook >>>>>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not >>>>>>>>>>> become >>>>>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> bit >>>>>>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys >>>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving >>>>>>>>>>> fast >>>>>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille. >>>>>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to >>>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to >>>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those >>>>>>>>>>> expensive >>>>>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same >>>>>>>>>>> technology >>>>>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or >>>>>>>>>>> coursesmart >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to >>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't >>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the >>>>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI. >>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts, >>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with >>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that >>>>>>>>>>>> quality >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> BKS >>>>>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner >>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>>>>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail: >>>>>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>>>>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to >>>>>>>>>>>> produce >>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process >>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it >>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put >>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility >>>>>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of >>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 >>>>>>>>>>>> textbooks >>>>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> hands >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a >>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated >>>>>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the >>>>>>>>>>>> point >>>>>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or >>>>>>>>>>>> RFB&D >>>>>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll >>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your >>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker >>>>>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out >>>>>>>>>>>> there, >>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be >>>>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we >>>>>>>>>>>> use >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical >>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far >>>>>>>>>>>> off), >>>>>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>>>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last >>>>>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally >>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's >>>>>>>>>>>> library >>>>>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every >>>>>>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just >>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>>>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm done now, >>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Julie, >>>>>>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of >>>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read >>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a >>>>>>>>>>>>> tremendous >>>>>>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a >>>>>>>>>>>>> library >>>>>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy >>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people >>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a >>>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile >>>>>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar >>>>>>>>>>>>> bookstores >>>>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we >>>>>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like >>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>> else. >>>>>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on >>>>>>>>>>>>> apple >>>>>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already >>>>>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to >>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have >>>>>>>>>>>>> options >>>>>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>> else >>>>>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not >>>>>>>>>>>>> hippocricy, >>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>>>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about >>>>>>>>>>>>> this-please >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>>>>>>>>>> With respect, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just >>>>>>>>>>>>>> embossed >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> access >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can >>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It >>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download >>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken >>>>>>>>>>>>>> away >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people >>>>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> No. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random >>>>>>>>>>>>>> things, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rambles. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> products, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ": >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trove >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> immediately >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> towards >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Josh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voices >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> students >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contrast, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org), >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> charge >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> large >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost-efficient >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> retailer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e-book >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasons. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kept >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raises, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferential >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> availability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sharply. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2001, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 93% >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Few >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regularly, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> read. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> readers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> integrated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructional >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> love a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individuals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> starting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPod >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> approaching >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extension >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> move >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma >>>>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relations >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >>>>>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Opera >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> eternal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>>>>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> > ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:54:15 -0600 From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 But you can't get an iphone from T-Mobile...so I'm stuck. On 5/25/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > There are many Android phones available both on Verizon and AT&T, and you > can also get an iPhone from either carrier. > On May 25, 2011, at 4:23 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > >> AT and T? I thought the Android was only for Verizon phones. As far as I >> know, the Android is semiaccessible, but doesn't read some features. But >> if you have AT and T already, I would totally suggest getting the iPhone! >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jorge Paez > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:40:45 -0400 >> Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility >> >> Hi all: >> Just wondering, >> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in >> the Android platform. >> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >> Is TalkBack any good? >> >> >> Thank you. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:04:50 -0400 From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Marsha: NLS I can understand. But bookshare? Why not bookshare? On May 25, 2011, at 12:46 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: > It is doubtful that NLS or Bookshare will ever go away. There is a huge > need > for both. And plus theyu are both not just used for students, or blind > people, but by the disability community as a whole. > > Marsha > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Kerri Kosten > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 8:42 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > Hey Guys: > > I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh > DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted > to get your thoughts. > > The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of > ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should > try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from > mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's > Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and > the NLS library service should go away. > > Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? > > Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? > > Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. > > While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille > literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. > Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone > correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display > either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in > BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a > notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. > > What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle > and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for > reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for > reading. > > What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many > people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat > computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for > the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. > > Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went > away completely. > > hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion > purposes. > > Kerri > > Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion > by Josh de Lioncourt > A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that > rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of > years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the > National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we > care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, > Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" > > On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people > with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one > digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an > alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually > impaired community. > > Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at just > a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this > question. > > .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously > available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with > access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the > same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with > publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing > materials in accessible formats. > .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are > understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from > their users before they are able to gain access to the content > provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these > hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. > .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable > or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, > commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle provide > access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, > including mobile phones. > .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a > recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large > number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient > solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove > far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. > .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these > bodies. > This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a > visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, > but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one > solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in > mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. > > There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. > It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired > people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential > treatment?" > > Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. > Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise > inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in > a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. > > With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability > and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. > Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of > information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A > WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of > library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of > college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information > they needed online than by visiting a physical library. > > The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible > than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few > technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the > quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find > none who would argue that point. > > With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline > of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask > yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or > exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The > answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers > purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment > media such as music or movies. > > While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years > passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of > accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, > and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those > with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, > solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a > future of equal access with our sighted peers. > > It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated > access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired > community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially > when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, > purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone else? > Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at > StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or > educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text > on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we pay > for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community > college? > > For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually > impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot > afford to purchase books, I have two questions. > > First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar > circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm > sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a > treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open > BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? > > Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or > government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than > mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available > in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users > to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. > How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which > provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens > of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at > just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod touch > can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, > and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from > the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions ultimately > be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining > books for their hard work? > > Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community > wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon > for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at > the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our > printed materials handed over for free? > > We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a > crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our > convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal > opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on > equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move > forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? > > I know which outcome I'm hoping for. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai > l.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > database 6149 (20110524) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > database 6151 (20110525) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > database 6151 (20110525) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:08:47 -0400 From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility Message-ID: <18F3D953-DC02-4927-A80F-7FC3B6E0709C at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Liz: Just a quick note: the apps are all developed by Mobile Accessibility--but the fact that the screenreader doesn't work that well outside those apps is rather Google's fault. On May 25, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Liz Bottner wrote: > What are some things related to usability and convenience that you give up > in using an Android? I am thinking of possibly taking the plunge and > getting > an Android, having used an iPhone prior. I have had very little experience > using Android, and will say that I was frustrated in doing so. If I have > to > give up a lot and find that my use of the phone and its features really is > limited, I may not go for it. I really wish Google would make > accessibility > a priority. I would love choice in which mobile platform I can use. I'm > possibly also spoiled in that I don't think I should have to pay extra for > accessibility, (following Apple's example), especially if the extra that I > would pay only allows me access to a specific suite of applications deemed > accessible by one developer/company and I still cannot have full access to > the phone. Lastly, I am wondering at this point if Android is not more > accessible to the low vision user than it is to one who is totally blind? > > Just my thoughts... > > Liz Bottner > Guiding Eyes Graduate Council > GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 > e-mail: > liziswhatis at hotmail.com > Visit my LiveJournal: > http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com > Follow me on Twitter: > http://twitter.com/lizbot > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Ignasi Cambra > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 5:17 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility > > In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this > point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done. > I > have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, none > of > the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on an > iPhone. > If you need a fully functional phone and you need to accomplish things > quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not ready yet. If you want > to try something new and you are willing to give up on some usability and > convenience, try getting an Android phone and see how it goes. If you are > planning on using Mobile Accessibility I would recommend that you get a > touch screen phone. > > IC > On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> Hi all: >> Just wondering, >> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in > the Android platform. >> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >> Is TalkBack any good? >> >> >> Thank you. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:11:41 -0400 From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility Message-ID: <9F6ACBDE-2CF6-463D-871A-631E9A2BF844 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Kirt: What do you mean by "what I need a phone to do?" I'm interested because I'm also up for an upgrade in a few days and I'm looking at Android seriously. On May 25, 2011, at 1:46 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Ignasi, > I use an old android phone (Google g1 with android 1.6 OS) with > talkback. It aint pretty, but it does what I need a phone to do. > Once I upgrade, due to happen in a few months, I'll consider paying > the steap price for mobile accessibility...maybe ask for it as a good > Birthday present or something because, dang it, I don't want to pay > 100 dollars for limited access! > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/25/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> Use of the phone and its features really is limited in my opinion. Many >> things look very promising, and there are a few apps that are designed >> for >> the blind and work well with Talkback. There are still many things which >> don't seem to work for me...random buttons which don't get activated when >> the screen reader is on, things that are not read to you etc. If you are >> expecting to be able to check your email and browse the internet just >> like >> on an iPhone, I think you will be disappointed. >> I personally use my iPhone all the time, but have the Droid just to do >> experiments. It's relatively easy to develop applications for Android and >> I >> have fun with it. I could use it as my primary phone if I wanted to, but >> I >> still find the iPhone a lot better as a blind user. >> It would be interesting to hear other opinions though. Does anyone on >> this >> list use an Android phone?? >> On May 25, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Liz Bottner wrote: >> >>> What are some things related to usability and convenience that you give >>> up >>> in using an Android? I am thinking of possibly taking the plunge and >>> getting >>> an Android, having used an iPhone prior. I have had very little >>> experience >>> using Android, and will say that I was frustrated in doing so. If I have >>> to >>> give up a lot and find that my use of the phone and its features really >>> is >>> limited, I may not go for it. I really wish Google would make >>> accessibility >>> a priority. I would love choice in which mobile platform I can use. I'm >>> possibly also spoiled in that I don't think I should have to pay extra >>> for >>> accessibility, (following Apple's example), especially if the extra that >>> I >>> would pay only allows me access to a specific suite of applications >>> deemed >>> accessible by one developer/company and I still cannot have full access >>> to >>> the phone. Lastly, I am wondering at this point if Android is not more >>> accessible to the low vision user than it is to one who is totally >>> blind? >>> >>> Just my thoughts... >>> >>> Liz Bottner >>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >>> e-mail: >>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >>> Visit my LiveJournal: >>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >>> Follow me on Twitter: >>> http://twitter.com/lizbot >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Ignasi Cambra >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 5:17 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility >>> >>> In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this >>> point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be >>> done. >>> I >>> have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, >>> none >>> of >>> the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on an >>> iPhone. >>> If you need a fully functional phone and you need to accomplish things >>> quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not ready yet. If you >>> want >>> to try something new and you are willing to give up on some usability >>> and >>> convenience, try getting an Android phone and see how it goes. If you >>> are >>> planning on using Mobile Accessibility I would recommend that you get a >>> touch screen phone. >>> >>> IC >>> On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all: >>>> Just wondering, >>>> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested >>>> in >>> the Android platform. >>>> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >>>> Is TalkBack any good? >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you. >>>> >>>> Jorge >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:15:32 -0400 From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Message-ID: <2BD7DBBC-5C02-400E-B6D2-0C27A4C7B26F at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 No, My class is using the 2000 version of my history book and I'm using the 2003 version. Ironically the problem is not the book is too old, its too new and so the pages are extremely different, and as I think most of us know, "find" doesn't work that well on the BN for more then 4 words. Not that I'm complaining that they have a new version--they should, but they should also have older ones just in case. On May 25, 2011, at 2:16 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Sally, > > This has been my experience with NIMAC-it's probably not > representative of the blind community, but here goes. Throughout Jr. > High and High School, bookshare was a great place for me to get books > for pleasure reading and a terrible place to get textbooks. The ones > I needed were never there, notwithstanding any laws about NIMAC. When > I got to college, the situation was just the same-I've so far used > about 14 textbooks, only 1 was even on bookshare and the only way I > could read it (because of some corrupted files or something) was to > extract the HTML version from the Daisy zip folder and it was > cumbersome as all heck. Thank God for good offices at my school's > Accessibility center who would hand scan books I bought and send me > rtf or .doc or kurzweil files-they helped me far more with textbooks > in one year than bookshare has in my whole life. I'm not trying to > diss bookshare-I love it, I think it's been a great idea, I think our > need for it is disappearing fast and it'll soon go down in the annals > of history as a great system that outlived its usefulness, even as > print libraries and the NLS flourish. > On a sidenote, was my experience with NIMAC pretty normal, or was I > just terribly unlucky? > All the best, > Kirt > > On 5/25/11, Sally Thomas wrote: >> I was referring specifically to textbook NIMAC files. >> >> Sally Thomas >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Freeman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:33 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare >> >> >>> Bookshare is quality Braille? >>> >>> Mike Freeman >>> sent from my iPhone >>> >>> >>> On May 25, 2011, at 4:19, "Sally Thomas" wrote: >>> >>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce >>>> accessible textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process >>>> need to translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more >>>> and >>>> more books are easily accessible with the new technology available, but >>>> it would be foolish to assume that publishers are going to put >>>> accessibility first when designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the >>>> repository of accessible textbook files. Textbook companies are >>>> required >>>> >>>> to make K-12 textbooks accessible. >>>> >>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the >>>> hands >>>> of blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a >>>> dedicated >>>> process for producing quality braille. >>>> >>>> Sally Thomas >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" >>>> >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And >>>> Bookshare >>>> >>>> >>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot), >>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point >>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D >>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too >>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker >>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it >>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that >>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long >>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to >>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as >>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off), >>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our >>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few >>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get >>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are >>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't >>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I >>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like >>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of >>>> getting them on a silver platter >>>> I'm done now, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Julie, >>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to >>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream >>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and >>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous >>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library >>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book >>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to >>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile >>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so >>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get >>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. >>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple >>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here >>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be >>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options >>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else >>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I >>>>> honestly don't know what is. >>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's >>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please >>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack. >>>>> With respect, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do >>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go >>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and >>>>>> order hard copy books. >>>>>> >>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not >>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by >>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to >>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get >>>>>> them. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean >>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books >>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same >>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we >>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be >>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that >>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from >>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to >>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just >>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but >>>>>> I >>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple >>>>>>> products, >>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal >>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental >>>>>>> problem with this article: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ": >>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot >>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The >>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of >>>>>>> those >>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of >>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or >>>>>>> NLS >>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their >>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately >>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many >>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a >>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and >>>>>>> keeping. >>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for >>>>>>> sighted individuals. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>> Hey Guys: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh >>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I >>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>> to get your thoughts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we >>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from >>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and >>>>>>>> Apple's >>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille >>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. >>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know >>>>>>>> (someone >>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille >>>>>>>> display >>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a >>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon >>>>>>>> Kindle >>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for >>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many >>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat >>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare >>>>>>>> went >>>>>>>> away completely. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for >>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion >>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt >>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that >>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of >>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, >>>>>>>> Kindle, >>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> with whom I?ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If >>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an >>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the >>>>>>>> visually >>>>>>>> impaired community. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let?s take a quick look at >>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this >>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously >>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the >>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at >>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats. >>>>>>>> ?Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are >>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from >>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content >>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through >>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. >>>>>>>> ?Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise >>>>>>>> undesirable >>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, >>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple?s iBooks and Amazon?s Kindle >>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, >>>>>>>> including mobile phones. >>>>>>>> ?Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large >>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient >>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can >>>>>>>> prove >>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. >>>>>>>> ?Many books are never made available in accessible formats through >>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>> bodies. >>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a >>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book >>>>>>>> platform, >>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one >>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, >>>>>>>> however. >>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually >>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential >>>>>>>> treatment?" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. >>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were >>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability >>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. >>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A >>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of >>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of >>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information >>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more >>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few >>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will >>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>> none who would argue that point. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the >>>>>>>> decline >>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. >>>>>>>> Ask >>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The >>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers >>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment >>>>>>>> media such as music or movies. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years >>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of >>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, >>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to >>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, >>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated >>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually >>>>>>>> impaired >>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, >>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired >>>>>>>> community, >>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD?s like everyone >>>>>>>> else? >>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at >>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or >>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional >>>>>>>> text >>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn?t worth as much as we >>>>>>>> pay >>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local >>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>> college? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually >>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply >>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar >>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and >>>>>>>> I?m >>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a >>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don?t we open >>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or >>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable >>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is >>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired >>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or >>>>>>>> music. >>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which >>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and >>>>>>>> tens >>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at >>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn?t even to mention the fact that the iPod >>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more >>>>>>>> storage, >>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn?t money saved by integrated solutions >>>>>>>> ultimately >>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining >>>>>>>> books for their hard work? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired >>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like >>>>>>>> Amazon >>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of >>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a >>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our >>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension >>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on >>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move >>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I know which outcome I?m hoping for. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>>>> Eyes for the Blind >>>>>> >>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>> life." >>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 55, Issue 50 ************************************** YB RESOURCEFUL CONSULTING TALENTS(YBRCT) - A Resourceful Consulting Entrepreneurial "Tool Box" www.YBResourceful.com +1(508) 736-4052 independent small consulting entrepreneurial business - here For your overall life enrichment... Private customized Piano and Hand-drum lessons; and live parties/gatherings and fictional animals sounds entertainment; Public Speaking, Presentation, Demonstrations and Pannalist for all; Creative Projects Support-researching, Small business entrepreneurship coaching, email accounts hosting, and more; Private Customized French, learning, and Small Documents Translation; Non-sighted People Backup Support for families and schools, and individuals; learning Braille, etc. Weekly free tips and much more at: www.YBResourceful.com +1(508) 736-4052 YB RESOURCEFUL CONSULTING TALENTS Admirals Hill Office Suites 285 Commandants Way Chelsea MA 02150 From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Thu May 26 02:44:13 2011 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 22:44:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download In-Reply-To: <003101cc1b00$74c884f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <9E74A93E-8F17-48E0-968A-79E558D18275@gmail.com> <203A2F9932BA49A9BE398FDEFEA50856@OwnerPC> <8D09ECCCD198497397B703E80BF2F0D6@tinad85eb5cc31> <003101cc1b00$74c884f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: A recording so far as I know was not made of the Dallas one, nor from Washington. There will be one frm this year's convention. Are you going? On 5/25/11, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello Tina and everyone, > > We attempted to record the 2010 NABS Meeting in Dallas but were unable > to do so due to problems with the P.A. System in that particular room. I > believe plans are in place to record this year's NABS Annual Meeting. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tina Hansen" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:34 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download > > > Excellent. > > Also, for some reason, there is no audio from the seminar at Dallas or the > division's midwinter conference at the Washington Seminar. Are there any > plans to offer audio from the Dallas meeting or any other seminar in the > near future on a regular basis? That's something that's bugged me for years. > Thanks. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djdrocks4ever%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu May 26 02:50:01 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 22:50:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> Humberto, If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can do things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is attracted to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what feels right. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Humberto Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? Hello dear listers, I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are concerned. So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the blind person can become a competent member of society by doing everything else that a sighted person can do. I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in touch. would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a characteristic? Will she understand that? I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, and having high expectations. But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick with one or not. Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? Cheers, Humberto _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu May 26 02:51:30 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 22:51:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Raiser's Edge In-Reply-To: References: <84327DBCB9E64AADB71533E550136703@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <5A0590EC7C2548EA9CEE9EEC755DC158@OwnerPC> Jen, Are you the same Jen who helped set up the new O&M yahoo list? Anyway, as you use raiser's edge, let us know how it is. Red cross uses it and so do many nonprofits; in fact every nonprofit I've run into and inquired about volunteering uses that database. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Jen And Nixon Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 8:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Raiser's Edge Also, I'm aware GDB uses this software as well. I'm in a non profit volunteer job in Canada and raiser's edge is used as well. I look forward to hearing any feedback on it's accessibility. Thanks so much Jen M Sent from my iPhone On 2011-05-25, at 1:25 PM, wrote: > Brice, > I asked around and asked a computer programmer the same questions. I'm > looking to get a job in the nonprofit sector and this came up. > Raisor's edge is semi accessible last I heard. Maybe call the NFB > technology department for more info or call blackbaud. > You might have to try it out and see how accessible it is. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Brice Smith > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:34 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Raiser's Edge > > Hi, > > Has anyone here used or worked with Raiser's Edge by Blackbaud for > nonprofits? Google brings me to a discussion in 2003 where someone > indicated the program was semi-accessible with Jaws or other screen > reading technology, but things may have drastically changed in eight > years. > > Thanks, > > Brice > > -- > Brice Smith > North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations > Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jenandnixon%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Thu May 26 03:14:43 2011 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 23:14:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi, I agree with what has been said here so far. The status of someone's vision has no bearing on their personality. Now, one could argue that it's easier to date a blind person because you're more likely to hit it off based on personality than a flirtation based on looks, so more meaningful relationships are formed that way. Or it could be said that sharing a common characteristic such as blindness makes you closer to your partner because you can discuss the trials and tribulations of it and know they truly understand. however, it can backfire. For example, you can be an independent person, while your partner holds a sense of entitlement and would rather have things handed to them. You can try to change them, but if they don't want to see the light of day so to speak, you can't, and shouldn't, force someone to change. Either they will come around or they won't, so don't let yourself be dragged into destructive patterns with them. The other issue is this: there is a definite taboo surrounding the topics of dating and sex among the disabled. Most of us probably were not given adequate sex education because our parents didn't expect us to grow up and explore our sexuality, especially if you were born blind, and doubly if it was a genetic disorder that caused your blindness. Some parents are good about it, if they're given the right education about such matters, but my own were not. To this day they do not believe I can find love because of my blindness. You see, they have this perception that blind people are more screwed up than sighted people, so the union of two of them spells disaster to them. So, that rant aside, I've dated mostly blind people in my short life, though my first boyfriend was sighted. It didn't play a big role in our relationship because we were both 13, so no one's thinking about the status of your employment or things of that nature at that age. When you get older, though, I can definitely see how a sighted person might judge you if you're unemployed, even if you truly are trying to obtain a job and just haven't gotten lucky yet. No one wants a bum, and most people frown on the idea of government assistance as well. These thoughts are only based on my personal experiences, however. Keep in mind that I live in rural pennsylvania where there are a lot of ignorant, closed-minded people who put their hands on my head to pray for me when they see me with my cane, or other assorted BS like that. I've lived in Pittsburgh and philadelphia where people were a lot less ignorant because they had more experience dealing with people with disabilities. In cities, there are a lot more people, so of course a broader range of experiences. Well, that's all for now, I think I've said my piece. I'm sure I'll think of more to add later though. On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Humberto, > If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can do > things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is attracted > to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what feels > right. > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Humberto > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? > > Hello dear listers, > > I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions > on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion > has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be > good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are > concerned. > So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out > with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main > differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? > Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? > If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal > with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How > can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the > blind person can become a competent member of society by doing > everything else that a sighted person can do. > I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as > much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've > been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in > touch. > would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a > sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a > characteristic? Will she understand that? > I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just > want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if > I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my > blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, > and having high expectations. > But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted > person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, > versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal > gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through > experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is > sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, > but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted > people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first > look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick > with one or not. > Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? > > Cheers, Humberto > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Thu May 26 03:24:30 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 21:24:30 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Homberto, I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, after a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than a handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a lot, after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off if you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I think most blind people would, too. So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and have the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person you date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have the right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each other, more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight shouldn't change anything. Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term relationship, odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because sighted people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a blind girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be happy. Take care, Kirt On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Humberto, > If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can do > things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is attracted > to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what feels > right. > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Humberto > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? > > Hello dear listers, > > I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions > on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion > has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be > good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are > concerned. > So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out > with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main > differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? > Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? > If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal > with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How > can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the > blind person can become a competent member of society by doing > everything else that a sighted person can do. > I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as > much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've > been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in > touch. > would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a > sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a > characteristic? Will she understand that? > I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just > want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if > I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my > blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, > and having high expectations. > But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted > person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, > versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal > gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through > experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is > sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, > but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted > people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first > look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick > with one or not. > Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? > > Cheers, Humberto > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From th404 at comcast.net Thu May 26 04:11:26 2011 From: th404 at comcast.net (Tina Hansen) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 21:11:26 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download References: <9E74A93E-8F17-48E0-968A-79E558D18275@gmail.com><203A2F9932BA49A9BE398FDEFEA50856@OwnerPC><8D09ECCCD198497397B703E80BF2F0D6@tinad85eb5cc31><003101cc1b00$74c884f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <2088BF9E7CF344EBA97F7CCCFA0F151A@tinad85eb5cc31> Yes, but I'm on another committer. Also, I'm hoping to use this material to reach out to students in my area. Thanks. From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Thu May 26 04:51:35 2011 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 00:51:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> Message-ID: I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is totally blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you from my own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had a very positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh in much when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that people with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd known several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate that they had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not their fault, mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and teacher misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's another topic entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we had talked a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my own blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend time with him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, one way or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was only a characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he approached blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 years now, and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have some degree of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the one". On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a completely sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I might as well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I really think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to her. I felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick me up or I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere (which often resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired from travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was available, she would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as well. She, apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about it when I observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It was just in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do with my vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is currently in a long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly blindness was not a turn-off to her. Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a big thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any significant others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as such. Best, -Jamie On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Homberto, > I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. > Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, after > a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to > achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to > date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if > anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than a > handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. > I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a > blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a lot, > after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off if > you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I > think most blind people would, too. > So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's > fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is > that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and have > the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person you > date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have the > right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person > you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each other, > more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight > shouldn't change anything. > Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends > are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term relationship, > odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because sighted > people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be > sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a blind > girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be > happy. > Take care, > Kirt > > On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > > Humberto, > > If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can do > > things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is > attracted > > to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what feels > > right. > > Ashley > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Humberto > > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM > > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org > > Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? > > > > Hello dear listers, > > > > I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions > > on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion > > has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be > > good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are > > concerned. > > So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out > > with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main > > differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? > > Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? > > If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal > > with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How > > can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the > > blind person can become a competent member of society by doing > > everything else that a sighted person can do. > > I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as > > much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've > > been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in > > touch. > > would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a > > sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a > > characteristic? Will she understand that? > > I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just > > want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if > > I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my > > blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, > > and having high expectations. > > But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted > > person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, > > versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal > > gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through > > experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is > > sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, > > but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted > > people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first > > look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick > > with one or not. > > Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? > > > > Cheers, Humberto > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Thu May 26 04:58:34 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 23:58:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> Message-ID: That's exactly the problem! Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I was trained at LWSB. It's crazy! I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. I don't want another blind person, because that would double my dependence, when it comes to traveling. I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. I like to travel to churches. It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a blind one. Remember, I'm totally blind. Blessings, Joshua On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: > I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is totally > blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you from my > own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had a very > positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh in much > when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that people > with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd known > several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate that they > had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not their fault, > mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and teacher > misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's another topic > entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we had talked > a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my own > blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend time with > him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, one way > or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was only a > characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he approached > blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 years now, > and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have some degree > of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the one". > > On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a completely > sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I might as > well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I really > think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to her. I > felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick me up or > I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere (which often > resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired from > travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was available, she > would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as well. She, > apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about it when I > observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It was just > in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do with my > vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is currently in a > long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly blindness was > not a turn-off to her. > > Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a big > thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any significant > others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as such. > > Best, > > -Jamie > > On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring > wrote: > >> Homberto, >> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. >> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, after >> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to >> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to >> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if >> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than a >> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. >> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a >> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a lot, >> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off if >> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I >> think most blind people would, too. >> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's >> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is >> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and have >> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person you >> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have the >> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person >> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each other, >> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight >> shouldn't change anything. >> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends >> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term relationship, >> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because sighted >> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be >> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a blind >> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be >> happy. >> Take care, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> > Humberto, >> > If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can do >> > things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is >> attracted >> > to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what >> > feels >> > right. >> > Ashley >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Humberto >> > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM >> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org >> > Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >> > >> > Hello dear listers, >> > >> > I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions >> > on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion >> > has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be >> > good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are >> > concerned. >> > So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out >> > with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main >> > differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? >> > Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? >> > If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal >> > with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How >> > can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the >> > blind person can become a competent member of society by doing >> > everything else that a sighted person can do. >> > I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as >> > much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've >> > been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in >> > touch. >> > would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a >> > sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a >> > characteristic? Will she understand that? >> > I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just >> > want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if >> > I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my >> > blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, >> > and having high expectations. >> > But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted >> > person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, >> > versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal >> > gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through >> > experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is >> > sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, >> > but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted >> > people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first >> > look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick >> > with one or not. >> > Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? >> > >> > Cheers, Humberto >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From ignasicambra at gmail.com Thu May 26 05:29:32 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 01:29:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> Message-ID: I have never dated a blind person before, mainly because I don't really know any blind people well. It's not that i'm avoiding them at all, it's just that all my friends happen to be sighted and there are never any blind people wherever I go. I've had several relationships with sighted girls, some being more serious than others. Now I've been dating the same person for 4 years, and things are working just fine. When she met me she had never talked to a blind person before, but she always says that the fact that I was blind didn't particularly affect her at that time. I'm from Spain and she's Korean, which by itself has brought some issues which we have had to deal with. But blindness itself has never been a problem for me in this way. I think it's a lot more likely that you will date someone with whom you have things in common, and that's why I can see how many blind people date other blind people. In my case, both my girlfriend and I are performers and we have both been through many similar things...competitions, unprepared concerts, bad recitals, and everything else. WE have many things in common and, especially at the beginning, that played a very important role in our relationship. Then we started knowing each other better and those things are obviously not the only things we talk about. I don't think that one is better than the other. Just date whoever you like, and you'll see how it goes!! IC On May 26, 2011, at 12:58 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > That's exactly the problem! > Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! > My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I was > trained at LWSB. > It's crazy! > I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. > Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. > I don't want another blind person, because that would double my > dependence, when it comes to traveling. > I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. > I like to travel to churches. > It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a blind one. > Remember, I'm totally blind. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >> I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is totally >> blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you from my >> own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had a very >> positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh in much >> when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that people >> with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd known >> several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate that they >> had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not their fault, >> mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and teacher >> misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's another topic >> entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we had talked >> a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my own >> blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend time with >> him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, one way >> or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was only a >> characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he approached >> blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 years now, >> and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have some degree >> of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the one". >> >> On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a completely >> sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I might as >> well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I really >> think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to her. I >> felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick me up or >> I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere (which often >> resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired from >> travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was available, she >> would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as well. She, >> apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about it when I >> observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It was just >> in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do with my >> vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is currently in a >> long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly blindness was >> not a turn-off to her. >> >> Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a big >> thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any significant >> others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as such. >> >> Best, >> >> -Jamie >> >> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring >> wrote: >> >>> Homberto, >>> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. >>> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, after >>> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to >>> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to >>> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if >>> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than a >>> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. >>> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a >>> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a lot, >>> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off if >>> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I >>> think most blind people would, too. >>> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's >>> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is >>> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and have >>> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person you >>> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have the >>> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person >>> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each other, >>> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight >>> shouldn't change anything. >>> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends >>> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term relationship, >>> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because sighted >>> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be >>> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a blind >>> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be >>> happy. >>> Take care, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>>> Humberto, >>>> If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can do >>>> things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is >>> attracted >>>> to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what >>>> feels >>>> right. >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Humberto >>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>> >>>> Hello dear listers, >>>> >>>> I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions >>>> on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion >>>> has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be >>>> good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are >>>> concerned. >>>> So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out >>>> with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main >>>> differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? >>>> Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? >>>> If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal >>>> with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How >>>> can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the >>>> blind person can become a competent member of society by doing >>>> everything else that a sighted person can do. >>>> I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as >>>> much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've >>>> been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in >>>> touch. >>>> would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a >>>> sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a >>>> characteristic? Will she understand that? >>>> I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just >>>> want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if >>>> I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my >>>> blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, >>>> and having high expectations. >>>> But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted >>>> person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, >>>> versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal >>>> gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through >>>> experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is >>>> sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, >>>> but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted >>>> people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first >>>> look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick >>>> with one or not. >>>> Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? >>>> >>>> Cheers, Humberto >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Thu May 26 05:44:33 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 01:44:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: <18F3D953-DC02-4927-A80F-7FC3B6E0709C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Technically, Talkback comes with several Android phones. It just doesn't work nearly as well as VoiceOver on the iPhone. In any case, I'm pretty sure accessibility will keep improving on the Android platform, and that's great for all of us. Android is younger than iOS, so let's give it some time. iOS versions 1.x and 2.x didn't have any accessibility features at all, which is a lot worse than Android. The difference here is that Apple controls everything about their OS, and they didn't provide accessibility until it was ready and the hardware they were shipping was able to run VoiceOver properly. Android is supposed to be an open source project, and things work in completely different ways. On May 25, 2011, at 7:52 PM, Liz Bottner wrote: > Yes, I do realize this. I believe that my point still stands: I pay the > money and can access what MA will let me access, regardless of who's fault > it was that increased accessibility isn't available. The bottom line is that > I am still having to pay extra for accessibility, something that comes > inherent on Apple devices. It really is a catch-22. > > Liz Bottner > Guiding Eyes Graduate Council > GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 > e-mail: > liziswhatis at hotmail.com > Visit my LiveJournal: > http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com > Follow me on Twitter: > http://twitter.com/lizbot > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Jorge Paez > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:09 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility > > Liz: > Just a quick note: > the apps are all developed by Mobile Accessibility--but the fact that the > screenreader doesn't work that well outside those apps is rather Google's > fault. > > > On May 25, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Liz Bottner wrote: > >> What are some things related to usability and convenience that you give up >> in using an Android? I am thinking of possibly taking the plunge and > getting >> an Android, having used an iPhone prior. I have had very little experience >> using Android, and will say that I was frustrated in doing so. If I have > to >> give up a lot and find that my use of the phone and its features really is >> limited, I may not go for it. I really wish Google would make > accessibility >> a priority. I would love choice in which mobile platform I can use. I'm >> possibly also spoiled in that I don't think I should have to pay extra for >> accessibility, (following Apple's example), especially if the extra that I >> would pay only allows me access to a specific suite of applications deemed >> accessible by one developer/company and I still cannot have full access to >> the phone. Lastly, I am wondering at this point if Android is not more >> accessible to the low vision user than it is to one who is totally blind? >> >> Just my thoughts... >> >> Liz Bottner >> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >> e-mail: >> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >> Visit my LiveJournal: >> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >> Follow me on Twitter: >> http://twitter.com/lizbot >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf >> Of Ignasi Cambra >> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 5:17 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility >> >> In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this >> point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done. > I >> have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, none > of >> the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on an > iPhone. >> If you need a fully functional phone and you need to accomplish things >> quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not ready yet. If you want >> to try something new and you are willing to give up on some usability and >> convenience, try getting an Android phone and see how it goes. If you are >> planning on using Mobile Accessibility I would recommend that you get a >> touch screen phone. >> >> IC >> On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >>> Hi all: >>> Just wondering, >>> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in >> the Android platform. >>> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >>> Is TalkBack any good? >>> >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai >> l.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepae > z%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Thu May 26 05:48:00 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 01:48:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindtlk] [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blindflyers'claims over airport kiosks In-Reply-To: <0DDB58FA-0526-4090-9166-F8F51191D60B@gmail.com> References: <4ddd6134.1116e70a.5ee6.0086@mx.google.com> <830DDA46-9158-4ABC-8EC7-3242A1CC8F1A@panix.com> <0DDB58FA-0526-4090-9166-F8F51191D60B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <389F42DC-E6C2-4F44-8C06-4F67BE88B1E1@gmail.com> In my experience, many sighted people get frustrated with those machines and end up talking to a human being anyways. It happens all the time...the thing doesn't work, and the employee has to help someone with it. In the end it would have been more practical to check in with the person from the beginning. At the JFK airport there are some accessible kiosks and they are pretty cool though. Given that these things are out there for airlines and airports to install, I think they should. On May 25, 2011, at 7:28 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > Exactly my point--and I think that's why our argument got thrown out by US AIRWAYS. > > On May 25, 2011, at 5:45 PM, Mike Freeman wrote: > >> Let's be clear: we would like such access; we don'ttruly need it most of the time. >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 25, 2011, at 13:05, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> >>> Yes, but that's hopefully a temporary fix. We're trying to get * independent access to the kiosks, just like sighted people. If there's a big line at the manned counter, a sighted person has the option of going over to the kiosk and checking in just as easily. We need that same access! >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>> >>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Brian Miller" >> To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" ,"'NABS list'" , "'NFBMD list'" >> Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 16:33:37 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blindflyers'claims over airport kiosks >>> >>> I agree that this is a set-back, and I do hope we continue to press the >>> issue. However, I have to confess that as annoying as these kiosks are, >>> their presence has yet to keep me off a plane or prevent me from checking >>> in. I just insist on getting assistance from a human being and I always get >>> it. It's when we can't check in at all, or when there are no longer any >>> human beings at the counter at all that we are in trouble. Another scenario >>> could be that checking in at kiosks earns passengers special privileges, >>> such as better selection of seating, or discounted baggage fess. I don't >>> believe this is the case yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is on the >>> horizon. When that day comes, we are in real trouble, and I believe we will >>> have an even stronger case of discrimination to make. >>> >>> I think also it has to be noted that it appears this judge didn't rule on >>> the merits of the case, or whether or not there was a violation of state law >>> -- just that state law didn't apply in this case due to the overriding >>> precedence of the Air Carrier Act. In other words, if I understand this >>> correctly, the court in California wasn't saying we didn't have standing at >>> all, just that we didn't have standing in that court -- or at the state >>> level, and that we need to address the issue at the federal level. >>> >>> Brian Miller >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 3:58 PM >>> To: NABS list; Blind Talk list; NFBMD list >>> Subject: [Blindtlk] [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blind >>> flyers'claims over airport kiosks >>> >>> And back to court we go... just to be dismissed! Hope they appeal! >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>> >>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>> >>> ---- Original Message ------ >>> From: "Sherri" >> Subject: [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blind flyers' >>> claims over airport kiosks >>> Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 02:22:38 -0400 >>> >>> I'm sure we'll think of some other way to solve this problem. >>> >>> Sherri >>> >>> >>> Westlaw Journal Aviation >>> Federal law preempts blind flyers' claims over airport kiosks >>> 5/23/2011 COMMENTS (0) >>> >>> >>> May 23 (Westlaw Journals) - Federal law preempts a class action brought by >>> the National Federation of the Blind and several visually impaired people >>> over the accessibility of airport ticketing kiosks, a California federal >>> judge has ruled. >>> >>> U.S. District Judge William Alsup of the Northern District of California >>> dismissed the NFB's lawsuit, finding the claims preempted by the Air Carrier >>> Access Act and the Airline Deregulation Act. >>> >>> The NFB and other plaintiffs alleged United Airlines violates California >>> disability law by failing to make airport ticketing kiosks accessible to the >>> blind. >>> >>> According to the complaint, the kiosks employ a visual computer screen with >>> prompts and touch-screen navigation but do not offer an audio output or >>> other medium to make the kiosks accessible to the blind. >>> >>> The plaintiffs brought their class action on behalf of all legally blind >>> people in the United States who have flown on United from a California >>> airport and have been unable to use the airline's kiosks. >>> >>> United moved for dismissal, arguing that the Airline Deregulation Act and >>> the Air Carrier Access Act preempt the plaintiffs' claims. >>> >>> Judge Alsup agreed. >>> >>> The claims are field-preempted under the ACAA because the Department of >>> Transportation pervasively regulates airport kiosk accessibility, he said. >>> >>> In addition, the Airline Deregulation Act expressly preempts the claims >>> because they defendants provide an airline "service" as defined in the >>> statute. >>> >>> Finally, the judge rejected the plaintiffs' argument that the Airline >>> Deregulation Act was meant to target airline deregulation rather than >>> discrimination. >>> >>> "The Airline Deregulation Act unequivocally declares that no state may enact >>> a law related to airline service," the Judge Alsup said. >>> "Congress could >>> have drawn the preemption provision more narrowly. It did not." >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind et al. v. United Airlines Inc., No. C >>> 10-04816 WHA, 2011 WL 1544524 (N.D. Cal. Apr. 25, 2011). >>> >>> (Reporting by Jennifer Long, Westlaw Journal Aviation) >>> >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>> --------------- >>> >>> Register or log in to comment. >>> C 2011 Thomson Reuters >>> >>> a.. Co >>> Have you visited my personal page at >>> http://www.raceforindependence.org/goto/Sherri.Brun >>> If so, Thank you for changing what it means to be blind. >>> If not, please go there now! >>> Thank you. >>> flmom2006 at gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nfb-talk mailing list >>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nfb-talk: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/dotkid. >>> nusbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindtlk mailing list >>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> blindtlk: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/brian-r >>> -miller%40u >>> iowa.edu >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> blindtlk mailing list >>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dotkid. >>> nusbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Thu May 26 05:49:28 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 01:49:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: <4ddd655e.85a9e60a.682e.0029@mx.google.com> <9D7AC341-5C3F-4735-93ED-CC871C1C9B3B@gmail.com> Message-ID: I honestly haven't looked for one... On May 25, 2011, at 7:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Ignasii, (or anyone who knows), > You seem to use android quite a bit. Have you found a decent GPS > app for android other than the Walkie Talkie one from eyes-free? > > On 5/25/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> Chris: >> Unlike the iPhone the Android isn't exclusive to anyone I think. >> >> >> On May 25, 2011, at 4:23 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> >>> AT and T? I thought the Android was only for Verizon phones. As far as I >>> know, the Android is semiaccessible, but doesn't read some features. But >>> if you have AT and T already, I would totally suggest getting the iPhone! >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>> >>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Jorge Paez >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:40:45 -0400 >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility >>> >>> Hi all: >>> Just wondering, >>> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in >>> the Android platform. >>> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >>> Is TalkBack any good? >>> >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Thu May 26 05:52:01 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 01:52:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: <9D7AC341-5C3F-4735-93ED-CC871C1C9B3B@gmail.com> References: <4ddd655e.85a9e60a.682e.0029@mx.google.com> <9D7AC341-5C3F-4735-93ED-CC871C1C9B3B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <07111887-16C1-4863-AE7A-8B5E190BC7EC@gmail.com> Android is just an operating system that Google makes available to all manufacturers. There are Android phones on all carriers. You can find Samsung, Motorola, HTC and other brands. The only thing those phones have in common is the Android operating system. It's what happens with PC's. No matter what the brand is, they come with Windows. On May 25, 2011, at 7:21 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > Chris: > Unlike the iPhone the Android isn't exclusive to anyone I think. > > > On May 25, 2011, at 4:23 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > >> AT and T? I thought the Android was only for Verizon phones. As far as I know, the Android is semiaccessible, but doesn't read some features. But if you have AT and T already, I would totally suggest getting the iPhone! >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jorge Paez > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:40:45 -0400 >> Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility >> >> Hi all: >> Just wondering, >> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in the Android platform. >> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >> Is TalkBack any good? >> >> >> Thank you. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Thu May 26 05:53:40 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 01:53:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: <4ddd655e.85a9e60a.682e.0029@mx.google.com> <6843F7EA-DBD1-4C6A-A4E3-517C7E97A951@gmail.com> Message-ID: <42B07FF9-7F29-403E-A94E-CCE8D1374C33@gmail.com> AT&T recently bought T-Mobile, so if you are willing to wait for a few months you might really be able to get an iPhone. On May 25, 2011, at 6:54 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > But you can't get an iphone from T-Mobile...so I'm stuck. > > On 5/25/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> There are many Android phones available both on Verizon and AT&T, and you >> can also get an iPhone from either carrier. >> On May 25, 2011, at 4:23 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> >>> AT and T? I thought the Android was only for Verizon phones. As far as I >>> know, the Android is semiaccessible, but doesn't read some features. But >>> if you have AT and T already, I would totally suggest getting the iPhone! >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>> >>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Jorge Paez >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:40:45 -0400 >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility >>> >>> Hi all: >>> Just wondering, >>> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in >>> the Android platform. >>> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >>> Is TalkBack any good? >>> >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Thu May 26 07:28:25 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 01:28:25 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: <07111887-16C1-4863-AE7A-8B5E190BC7EC@gmail.com> References: <4ddd655e.85a9e60a.682e.0029@mx.google.com> <9D7AC341-5C3F-4735-93ED-CC871C1C9B3B@gmail.com> <07111887-16C1-4863-AE7A-8B5E190BC7EC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ignasi, T-mobile won't be part of At&t till about a year from now-until then, probably no iphone for me. (although there's some talk of an Iphone 5 which can be used on t-mobile coming out near the end of this year...we'll see) On 5/25/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > Android is just an operating system that Google makes available to all > manufacturers. There are Android phones on all carriers. You can find > Samsung, Motorola, HTC and other brands. The only thing those phones have in > common is the Android operating system. It's what happens with PC's. No > matter what the brand is, they come with Windows. > On May 25, 2011, at 7:21 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> Chris: >> Unlike the iPhone the Android isn't exclusive to anyone I think. >> >> >> On May 25, 2011, at 4:23 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> >>> AT and T? I thought the Android was only for Verizon phones. As far as I >>> know, the Android is semiaccessible, but doesn't read some features. But >>> if you have AT and T already, I would totally suggest getting the iPhone! >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >>> >>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Jorge Paez >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:40:45 -0400 >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility >>> >>> Hi all: >>> Just wondering, >>> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in >>> the Android platform. >>> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >>> Is TalkBack any good? >>> >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >>> sbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dandrews at visi.com Thu May 26 08:36:29 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 03:36:29 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates In-Reply-To: <4dd6c8b6.4969e50a.463c.ffff8a06@mx.google.com> References: <4dd6c8b6.4969e50a.463c.ffff8a06@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I am a bit behind, but I will say to you that accessibility, and usability are different. Something can be accessible, but not very, or at all usable. Accessible means that you can identify and get to all the elements on the page, control them, use them in the manner intended, etc. For a blind person it would mean being able to do everything with a screen reader, and from the keyboard. Usability can apply to all users, sighted and blind alike. It relates to how the page is organized, how easily you can find things, accomplish a given task etc. I will add though, that at least for us as blind persons, accessibility and usability do become linked at some levels. If a page does not behave as one would expect, it can be unusable to many people. You may be able to get to everything on a page, (accessibility,) but not know what to do when you get there (usability.) Dave At 03:01 PM 5/20/2011, you wrote: >Huh? Two different things? Ease of access (accessibility,) or ease >of use. Isn't that what we're talking about, being able to use it >independently with a screen reader? Isn't that access? Maybe you >(Mike) or someone else can explain this to me. > >Chris > >"A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > >--- Sent from my BrailleNote > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date sent: Thu, 19 May 2011 19:51:57 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government >NotComplying with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates > >Actually, AMTRAK's site is accessible -- it just isn't useable -- they're >two different things. > >Mike > > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >Of Jorge Paez >Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:26 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying >with Web Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates > >What screenreader are you using? > >On May 19, 2011, at 10:01 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >This surprises me-not that I'm a government internet expert, but I've >seen a lot of their sites and the only one that really gave me any >trouble was Amtrak. > >On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > > >Begin forwarded message: > >From: David Andrews Date: May 19, 2011 8:22:40 PM EDT >To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >Subject: [gui-talk] Fwd: Federal Government Not Complying with Web >Site Accessibility Requirements, Study Indicates >Reply-To: "Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk >Mailing List" > > >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > >CONTACT: >Chris Danielsen >Director of Public Relations >National Federation of the Blind >(410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >(410) 262-1281 (Cell) >cdanielsen at nfb.org > >Federal Government Not Complying with Web Site Accessibility >Requirements, Study Indicates > >National Federation of the Blind Expresses Outrage, Demands Swift >Action > >Baltimore, Maryland (May 19, 2011): A study that has just been >published online in the journal >Government >Information Quarterly has found that of one-hundred Web sites >operated by federal government agencies, over 90 percent do not >comply with government accessibility guidelines and likely cannot >be used by people who are blind or have other perceptual or motor >disabilities. The study, entitled "Accessibility of U.S. >federal >government home pages: Section >508 compliance and site accessibility statements" and coauthored by >Doctoral Student Abiodun Olalere and Professor Jonathan Lazar of >Towson University, found that the home pages of over 90 percent of >the Web sites they evaluated contained violations of the >government's own guidelines for compliance with Section 508 of the >Rehabilitation Act of 1973. That law requires that government >electronic and information technology be accessible to people with >disabilities. > >Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, >said: >"Blind Americans are outraged that the government is failing to >comply with its own guidelines to make government information and >services available to citizens with disabilities. Given the clear >legal requirements of Section 508 and the fact that use of the >Internet is critical to education, employment, access to government >benefits and services, and all other aspects of modern life, there >is no excuse for failure to follow and rigorously enforce these >guidelines. We demand that officials in all branches of government >take immediate steps to bring all federal Web sites into compliance >with the law, and we pledge to continue to hold the federal >government accountable if it continues to treat the blind and others >with disabilities as second-class citizens." > >The study evaluated the home pages of one-hundred government Web >sites across all three branches of the federal government, >including executive agencies, independent agencies, government >corporations (e.g. Amtrak), the United States Congress, the United >States Supreme Court, United States federal courts, and "open >government" Web sites like www.usajobs.gov >and www.ready.gov. The authors utilized both >automated-software tools and human-expert inspections on each home >page, and determined that over 90 percent of the home pages were >not in compliance with the Section 508 regulations. > >Most of the accessibility problems were common ones that are easily >resolved, such as unlabeled images, mislabeled forms or tables, >videos without captioning, flash without any textual equivalents, >and lack of keyboard equivalents for mouse-over actions. The >authors noted that this is not a problem unique to one agency. >Similar problems occur on multiple agency Web sites, and the core >problem is the lack of consistent compliance activities and enforcement >throughout the federal government. > >The study makes several recommendations to increase compliance, >including improved resources on complying with the guidelines; >better documentation of best practices; publishing of information >about which agencies are compliant and noncompliant with >accessibility guidelines as part of the open government dashboard; >and better enforcement and monitoring procedures within government >agencies, such as the loss of Web-posting privileges for repeatedly >posting inaccessible content. > > >### > > >About the National Federation of the Blind > >With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind >is the largest and most influential membership organization of >blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's >lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and >programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the >leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the >nation's blind. In January >2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan >Institute, the first research and training center in the United >States for the blind led by the blind. From dandrews at visi.com Thu May 26 08:44:24 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 03:44:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: <42B07FF9-7F29-403E-A94E-CCE8D1374C33@gmail.com> References: <4ddd655e.85a9e60a.682e.0029@mx.google.com> <6843F7EA-DBD1-4C6A-A4E3-517C7E97A951@gmail.com> <42B07FF9-7F29-403E-A94E-CCE8D1374C33@gmail.com> Message-ID: Please be accurate. AT&T has proposed to buy T-Mobile. It has not yet been approved by FCC, and others who must do so. I would guess all approvals are at least a year away, and not a done deal. It might not happen. Dave At 12:53 AM 5/26/2011, you wrote: >AT&T recently bought T-Mobile, so if you are willing to wait for a >few months you might really be able to get an iPhone. >On May 25, 2011, at 6:54 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > > > But you can't get an iphone from T-Mobile...so I'm stuck. > > > > On 5/25/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > >> There are many Android phones available both on Verizon and AT&T, and you > >> can also get an iPhone from either carrier. > >> On May 25, 2011, at 4:23 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > >> > >>> AT and T? I thought the Android was only for Verizon phones. As far as I > >>> know, the Android is semiaccessible, but doesn't read some features. But > >>> if you have AT and T already, I would totally suggest getting the iPhone! > >>> > >>> Chris > >>> > >>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > >>> > >>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: Jorge Paez >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:40:45 -0400 > >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility > >>> > >>> Hi all: > >>> Just wondering, > >>> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in > >>> the Android platform. > >>> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? > >>> Is TalkBack any good? > >>> > >>> > >>> Thank you. > >>> > >>> Jorge From dandrews at visi.com Thu May 26 09:16:43 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 04:16:43 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Raiser's Edge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I looked at it some time ago, and it was marginal. Haven't tried a recent version though. I believe it is written in visual basic, probably visual studio now, so accessibility should be possible if they would do a little work. Dave At 02:34 PM 5/25/2011, you wrote: >Hi, > >Has anyone here used or worked with Raiser's Edge by Blackbaud for >nonprofits? Google brings me to a discussion in 2003 where someone >indicated the program was semi-accessible with Jaws or other screen >reading technology, but things may have drastically changed in eight >years. > >Thanks, > >Brice > >-- >Brice Smith >North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Thu May 26 09:24:37 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 04:24:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: <2D63294CEA7F43FEA370D42BF3AF828D@OwnerPC> <25F832C0-E672-49A0-A1AE-5091EE4EBF9D@gmail.com> <33CC1C522D0C4B499AD7EEE45423FEA9@OwnerPC> <6345360D-6954-4FF2-9F69-FCC0DD0C8728@gmail.com> <149F6CA01B7E4B7BA63CB9983D28BAD1@OwnerPC> Message-ID: I believe that Access Text is a cooperative project between some book publishers and universities. So, its requirements are a series of compromises. The publishers don't want their stuff running loose outside the disabled community, hence DSS and certification requirements. While not ideal, at this point it may be a necessary evil. Dave At 05:27 PM 5/25/2011, you wrote: >I think that defeats the purpose of availability and accessible. Why >would I want to go to a DS organization if I didn't have to? > >It is bad enough that I need to go to them if I can't find another >way to get the material but if it is already prepared I shouldn't >have to go to them at all. >SO what ever source catalogs the titles and content should be available to us. > >That is why BookShare which is already setup could do that very quickly. >-Kevin >:) > >On May 25, 2011, at 5:07 PM, wrote: > > > No, you have to go through DSS. > > > > -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Fjelsted > > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:01 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare > > > > Does Access text store the content as well? > > Can we access it as individuals and search and download the content? > > > > -Kevin > > On May 25, 2011, at 4:24 PM, wrote: > > > >> Access text. > > From minichiellog at comcast.net Thu May 26 09:46:27 2011 From: minichiellog at comcast.net (Gina Minichiello) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 04:46:27 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Show Me the Money Raffle Message-ID: Once again the Florida affiliate has another exciting fundraiser raffle. What would you do with $1000? It only takes one ticket win. Hurry! Tickets may sell out before national convention. Show Me the Money Prize $1000 Chances to win 1 in 500 Price $5.00 per ticket Drawing July 8 at NFB National Convention-Orlando Florida Need not be present to win Buy one for a friend or family member. Chapters can also purchase tickets. If you would like tickets, please make checks payable to NFBF, and mmail to: NFBF Attn: Gloria Mills Hicks, Treasurer 3708 West Bay to Bay Blvd. Tampa, FL 33629 If you provide your email address in the memo field of the check, we will send you electronic confirmation of you ticket numbers, otherwise mailed to the address on the check If you have any questions, please contact me. Good luck everyone!! Gina Minichiello NFBF Fundraising Committee Chairperson Greater Jacksonville Chapter, Treasurer Florida Disabled Citizens for Progress minichiellog at comcast.net 904-571-9117 From dandrews at visi.com Thu May 26 09:48:37 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 04:48:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Roommates wanted Message-ID: > >Looking for a roommate (or 2 or 3) for the NFB Convention. I'm >looking for non-smokers, dogs are OK. You can contact me by phone in >Montana at 406-457-8121 or 406-442-1253. Or send an e-mail to >lindazh2 at juno.com. I do not have a computer so I check e-mails at >the library in the evening. > >Linda Z. Hurlock > >____________________________________________________________ >Penny Stock Jumping 3000% >Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ddb1173cd7765ba73cst06vuc From trillian551 at gmail.com Thu May 26 12:19:25 2011 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 08:19:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard problems In-Reply-To: <8555A41E0B9149679B260062C638AB18@OwnerPC> References: <9F9678901E9A416B961D4EB9D9A8AE04@OwnerPC> <8555A41E0B9149679B260062C638AB18@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Oh Ok, I know what you're talking about. Yeah, I never had any problems just hitting browse files, picking what I needed and attaching it. Maybe they did some updating on BB? I would try doing it again today since sometimes they do maintenance and that messes things up a bit. I know I'm not much help. Mary On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hmm. I don't think drop box exists in this blackboard. Its just a page to > upload your assignments. It says submit assignment xx here and you click on > it and it brings you to the page I described with the upload buttons. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mary Fernandez > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:40 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard problems > > Hey Ashley, are you using a Wiki or the electronic Drop Box? > > > On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Hi all, >> In my online class for technical editing I see issues submitting >> assignments. I got jaws 12. >> >> I’ll try to describe since I cannot show you all. When I enter the submit >> link it comes to a new page. You have a form field for comments and above >> it >> buttons for browsing to attach files. I clicked the browse button and it >> gave me an error message saying something like “use the button above ...” >> I couldn’t find any other button to use. I only see three other buttons: >> submit, cancel, and a back button or something I can’t remember. >> >> So I am having trouble attaching files to submit all my assignments. Odd >> thing is it worked better about a month ago and today I’m doing many >> assignment since I procrastinated, but can’t seem to make it work. I ended >> up emailing my professor my work. >> I’ve used tab, and the hot key B to go to all buttons. >> >> Any ideas. >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > President: Georgia Association of Blind Students > Emory University 2012 > P.O. Box 123056 > Atlanta Ga. > 30322 > Phone: 732-857-7004 > > "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much > rather you weren't doing it." > Terry Pratchett > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory University 2012 P.O. Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. 30322 Phone: 732-857-7004 "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it." Terry Pratchett From k7uij at panix.com Thu May 26 15:13:23 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 08:13:23 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com> So you pick your life-partner on the basis of convenience? Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 25, 2011, at 21:58, Joshua Lester wrote: > That's exactly the problem! > Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! > My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I was > trained at LWSB. > It's crazy! > I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. > Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. > I don't want another blind person, because that would double my > dependence, when it comes to traveling. > I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. > I like to travel to churches. > It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a blind one. > Remember, I'm totally blind. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >> I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is totally >> blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you from my >> own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had a very >> positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh in much >> when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that people >> with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd known >> several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate that they >> had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not their fault, >> mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and teacher >> misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's another topic >> entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we had talked >> a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my own >> blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend time with >> him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, one way >> or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was only a >> characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he approached >> blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 years now, >> and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have some degree >> of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the one". >> >> On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a completely >> sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I might as >> well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I really >> think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to her. I >> felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick me up or >> I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere (which often >> resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired from >> travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was available, she >> would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as well. She, >> apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about it when I >> observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It was just >> in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do with my >> vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is currently in a >> long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly blindness was >> not a turn-off to her. >> >> Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a big >> thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any significant >> others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as such. >> >> Best, >> >> -Jamie >> >> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring >> wrote: >> >>> Homberto, >>> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. >>> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, after >>> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to >>> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to >>> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if >>> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than a >>> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. >>> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a >>> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a lot, >>> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off if >>> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I >>> think most blind people would, too. >>> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's >>> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is >>> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and have >>> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person you >>> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have the >>> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person >>> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each other, >>> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight >>> shouldn't change anything. >>> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends >>> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term relationship, >>> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because sighted >>> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be >>> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a blind >>> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be >>> happy. >>> Take care, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>>> Humberto, >>>> If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can do >>>> things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is >>> attracted >>>> to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what >>>> feels >>>> right. >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Humberto >>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>> >>>> Hello dear listers, >>>> >>>> I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions >>>> on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion >>>> has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be >>>> good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are >>>> concerned. >>>> So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out >>>> with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main >>>> differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? >>>> Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? >>>> If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal >>>> with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How >>>> can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the >>>> blind person can become a competent member of society by doing >>>> everything else that a sighted person can do. >>>> I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as >>>> much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've >>>> been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in >>>> touch. >>>> would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a >>>> sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a >>>> characteristic? Will she understand that? >>>> I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just >>>> want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if >>>> I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my >>>> blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, >>>> and having high expectations. >>>> But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted >>>> person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, >>>> versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal >>>> gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through >>>> experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is >>>> sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, >>>> but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted >>>> people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first >>>> look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick >>>> with one or not. >>>> Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? >>>> >>>> Cheers, Humberto >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Thu May 26 15:23:39 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 10:23:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: <279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com> References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> <279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com> Message-ID: I'd love everyone the same, no matter what. It wouldn't matter to me, either way. I'm just saying, I wouldn't want to be a double burden, on my family, if her family didn't have anything to do with her. I'd want to be as endependent, as possible. I wouldn't want our blindness, to get in the way. Blessings, Joshua On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > So you pick your life-partner on the basis of convenience? > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 25, 2011, at 21:58, Joshua Lester > wrote: > >> That's exactly the problem! >> Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! >> My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I was >> trained at LWSB. >> It's crazy! >> I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. >> Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. >> I don't want another blind person, because that would double my >> dependence, when it comes to traveling. >> I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. >> I like to travel to churches. >> It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a blind >> one. >> Remember, I'm totally blind. >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>> I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is totally >>> blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you from >>> my >>> own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had a >>> very >>> positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh in >>> much >>> when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that people >>> with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd known >>> several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate that >>> they >>> had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not their >>> fault, >>> mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and teacher >>> misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's another >>> topic >>> entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we had >>> talked >>> a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my own >>> blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend time >>> with >>> him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, one >>> way >>> or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was only a >>> characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he >>> approached >>> blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 years >>> now, >>> and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have some >>> degree >>> of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the >>> one". >>> >>> On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a >>> completely >>> sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I might as >>> well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I really >>> think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to her. I >>> felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick me up >>> or >>> I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere (which >>> often >>> resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired from >>> travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was available, she >>> would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as well. >>> She, >>> apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about it >>> when I >>> observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It was >>> just >>> in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do with >>> my >>> vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is currently in >>> a >>> long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly blindness >>> was >>> not a turn-off to her. >>> >>> Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a big >>> thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any >>> significant >>> others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as >>> such. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> -Jamie >>> >>> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Homberto, >>>> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. >>>> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, after >>>> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to >>>> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to >>>> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if >>>> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than a >>>> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. >>>> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a >>>> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a lot, >>>> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off if >>>> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I >>>> think most blind people would, too. >>>> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's >>>> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is >>>> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and have >>>> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person you >>>> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have the >>>> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person >>>> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each other, >>>> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight >>>> shouldn't change anything. >>>> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends >>>> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term relationship, >>>> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because sighted >>>> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be >>>> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a blind >>>> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be >>>> happy. >>>> Take care, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>>>> Humberto, >>>>> If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can do >>>>> things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is >>>> attracted >>>>> to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what >>>>> feels >>>>> right. >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Humberto >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>>> >>>>> Hello dear listers, >>>>> >>>>> I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions >>>>> on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion >>>>> has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be >>>>> good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are >>>>> concerned. >>>>> So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out >>>>> with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main >>>>> differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? >>>>> Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? >>>>> If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal >>>>> with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How >>>>> can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the >>>>> blind person can become a competent member of society by doing >>>>> everything else that a sighted person can do. >>>>> I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as >>>>> much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've >>>>> been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in >>>>> touch. >>>>> would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a >>>>> sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a >>>>> characteristic? Will she understand that? >>>>> I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just >>>>> want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if >>>>> I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my >>>>> blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, >>>>> and having high expectations. >>>>> But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted >>>>> person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, >>>>> versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal >>>>> gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through >>>>> experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is >>>>> sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, >>>>> but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted >>>>> people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first >>>>> look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick >>>>> with one or not. >>>>> Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, Humberto >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From hope.paulos at gmail.com Thu May 26 15:25:30 2011 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 11:25:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> <279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com> Message-ID: <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> First of all, I don't understand, Joshua, how you believe dating a blind person would double your dependence while traveling? I'm a compitent traveler and a totally blind one at that. I am a musician as well. To be honest, I don't care whether or not my boyfriend is sighted or blind. It's who he is that counts, not his disability or lack thereof. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? > So you pick your life-partner on the basis of convenience? > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 25, 2011, at 21:58, Joshua Lester > wrote: > >> That's exactly the problem! >> Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! >> My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I was >> trained at LWSB. >> It's crazy! >> I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. >> Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. >> I don't want another blind person, because that would double my >> dependence, when it comes to traveling. >> I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. >> I like to travel to churches. >> It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a blind >> one. >> Remember, I'm totally blind. >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>> I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is totally >>> blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you from >>> my >>> own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had a >>> very >>> positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh in >>> much >>> when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that >>> people >>> with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd >>> known >>> several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate that >>> they >>> had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not their >>> fault, >>> mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and >>> teacher >>> misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's another >>> topic >>> entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we had >>> talked >>> a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my own >>> blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend time >>> with >>> him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, one >>> way >>> or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was only a >>> characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he >>> approached >>> blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 years >>> now, >>> and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have some >>> degree >>> of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the >>> one". >>> >>> On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a >>> completely >>> sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I might >>> as >>> well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I >>> really >>> think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to her. I >>> felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick me >>> up or >>> I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere (which >>> often >>> resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired from >>> travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was available, >>> she >>> would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as well. >>> She, >>> apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about it >>> when I >>> observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It was >>> just >>> in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do with >>> my >>> vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is currently >>> in a >>> long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly blindness >>> was >>> not a turn-off to her. >>> >>> Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a big >>> thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any >>> significant >>> others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as >>> such. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> -Jamie >>> >>> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Homberto, >>>> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. >>>> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, after >>>> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to >>>> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to >>>> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if >>>> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than a >>>> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. >>>> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a >>>> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a lot, >>>> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off if >>>> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I >>>> think most blind people would, too. >>>> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's >>>> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is >>>> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and have >>>> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person you >>>> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have the >>>> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person >>>> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each other, >>>> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight >>>> shouldn't change anything. >>>> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends >>>> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term relationship, >>>> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because sighted >>>> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be >>>> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a blind >>>> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be >>>> happy. >>>> Take care, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net >>>> wrote: >>>>> Humberto, >>>>> If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can do >>>>> things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is >>>> attracted >>>>> to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what >>>>> feels >>>>> right. >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Humberto >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>>> >>>>> Hello dear listers, >>>>> >>>>> I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions >>>>> on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion >>>>> has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be >>>>> good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are >>>>> concerned. >>>>> So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out >>>>> with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main >>>>> differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? >>>>> Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? >>>>> If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal >>>>> with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How >>>>> can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the >>>>> blind person can become a competent member of society by doing >>>>> everything else that a sighted person can do. >>>>> I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as >>>>> much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've >>>>> been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in >>>>> touch. >>>>> would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a >>>>> sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a >>>>> characteristic? Will she understand that? >>>>> I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just >>>>> want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if >>>>> I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my >>>>> blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, >>>>> and having high expectations. >>>>> But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted >>>>> person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, >>>>> versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal >>>>> gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through >>>>> experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is >>>>> sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, >>>>> but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted >>>>> people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first >>>>> look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick >>>>> with one or not. >>>>> Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, Humberto >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Thu May 26 15:31:59 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 10:31:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> <279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com> <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> Message-ID: I am talking about the transportation part of it. I hate having to be dependent on others for transportation. My mother has health problems, which will prevent her from taking me everywhere, and who knows, about the girl? I've dated one before, and I know the strain, it put on both families. Neither one had heard of the NFB. I'm glad I've found this organization! I know, that anything's possible for us, if we just work at it. I wish I had known this sooner! Blessings, Joshua On 5/26/11, Hope Paulos wrote: > First of all, I don't understand, Joshua, how you believe dating a blind > person would double your dependence while traveling? I'm a compitent > traveler and a totally blind one at that. I am a musician as well. To be > honest, I don't care whether or not my boyfriend is sighted or blind. It's > who he is that counts, not his disability or lack thereof. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:13 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? > > >> So you pick your life-partner on the basis of convenience? >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 25, 2011, at 21:58, Joshua Lester >> wrote: >> >>> That's exactly the problem! >>> Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! >>> My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I was >>> trained at LWSB. >>> It's crazy! >>> I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. >>> Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. >>> I don't want another blind person, because that would double my >>> dependence, when it comes to traveling. >>> I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. >>> I like to travel to churches. >>> It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a blind >>> >>> one. >>> Remember, I'm totally blind. >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> >>> On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>> I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is totally >>>> blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you from >>>> my >>>> own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had a >>>> very >>>> positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh in >>>> much >>>> when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that >>>> people >>>> with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd >>>> known >>>> several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate that >>>> they >>>> had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not their >>>> fault, >>>> mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and >>>> teacher >>>> misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's another >>>> topic >>>> entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we had >>>> talked >>>> a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my own >>>> blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend time >>>> with >>>> him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, one >>>> >>>> way >>>> or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was only a >>>> characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he >>>> approached >>>> blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 years >>>> now, >>>> and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have some >>>> degree >>>> of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the >>>> one". >>>> >>>> On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a >>>> completely >>>> sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I might >>>> as >>>> well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I >>>> really >>>> think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to her. I >>>> felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick me >>>> up or >>>> I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere (which >>>> often >>>> resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired from >>>> travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was available, >>>> she >>>> would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as well. >>>> She, >>>> apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about it >>>> when I >>>> observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It was >>>> just >>>> in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do with >>>> >>>> my >>>> vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is currently >>>> in a >>>> long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly blindness >>>> was >>>> not a turn-off to her. >>>> >>>> Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a big >>>> thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any >>>> significant >>>> others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as >>>> such. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> -Jamie >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Homberto, >>>>> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. >>>>> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, after >>>>> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to >>>>> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to >>>>> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if >>>>> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than a >>>>> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. >>>>> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a >>>>> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a lot, >>>>> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off if >>>>> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I >>>>> think most blind people would, too. >>>>> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's >>>>> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is >>>>> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and have >>>>> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person you >>>>> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have the >>>>> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person >>>>> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each other, >>>>> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight >>>>> shouldn't change anything. >>>>> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends >>>>> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term relationship, >>>>> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because sighted >>>>> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be >>>>> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a blind >>>>> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be >>>>> happy. >>>>> Take care, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Humberto, >>>>>> If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can do >>>>>> things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is >>>>> attracted >>>>>> to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what >>>>>> feels >>>>>> right. >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Humberto >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello dear listers, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions >>>>>> on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion >>>>>> has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be >>>>>> good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are >>>>>> concerned. >>>>>> So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out >>>>>> with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main >>>>>> differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? >>>>>> Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? >>>>>> If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal >>>>>> with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How >>>>>> can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the >>>>>> blind person can become a competent member of society by doing >>>>>> everything else that a sighted person can do. >>>>>> I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as >>>>>> much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've >>>>>> been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in >>>>>> touch. >>>>>> would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a >>>>>> sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a >>>>>> characteristic? Will she understand that? >>>>>> I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just >>>>>> want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if >>>>>> I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my >>>>>> blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, >>>>>> and having high expectations. >>>>>> But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted >>>>>> person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, >>>>>> versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal >>>>>> gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through >>>>>> experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is >>>>>> sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, >>>>>> but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted >>>>>> people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first >>>>>> look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick >>>>>> with one or not. >>>>>> Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, Humberto >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Thu May 26 15:33:41 2011 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 11:33:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> <279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com> <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> Message-ID: I'm not sure I understand how this would create a "double burden" on your family either. If she is an independent traveler, or independent in other ways as well, why should she create any burden? Why would this hinder your independence unless you're looking for a partner who could drive you around and such so your parents don't have to (and I don't think you are! I'm just saying, I don't understand your point.) On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Hope Paulos wrote: > First of all, I don't understand, Joshua, how you believe dating a blind > person would double your dependence while traveling? I'm a compitent > traveler and a totally blind one at that. I am a musician as well. To be > honest, I don't care whether or not my boyfriend is sighted or blind. It's > who he is that counts, not his disability or lack thereof. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" < > nabs-l at nfbnet.org> > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:13 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? > > > So you pick your life-partner on the basis of convenience? >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 25, 2011, at 21:58, Joshua Lester >> wrote: >> >> That's exactly the problem! >>> Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! >>> My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I was >>> trained at LWSB. >>> It's crazy! >>> I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. >>> Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. >>> I don't want another blind person, because that would double my >>> dependence, when it comes to traveling. >>> I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. >>> I like to travel to churches. >>> It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a blind >>> one. >>> Remember, I'm totally blind. >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> >>> On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>> >>>> I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is totally >>>> blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you from >>>> my >>>> own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had a >>>> very >>>> positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh in >>>> much >>>> when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that >>>> people >>>> with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd >>>> known >>>> several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate that >>>> they >>>> had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not their >>>> fault, >>>> mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and >>>> teacher >>>> misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's another >>>> topic >>>> entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we had >>>> talked >>>> a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my own >>>> blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend time >>>> with >>>> him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, one >>>> way >>>> or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was only a >>>> characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he >>>> approached >>>> blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 years >>>> now, >>>> and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have some >>>> degree >>>> of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the >>>> one". >>>> >>>> On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a >>>> completely >>>> sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I might >>>> as >>>> well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I >>>> really >>>> think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to her. I >>>> felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick me >>>> up or >>>> I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere (which >>>> often >>>> resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired from >>>> travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was available, >>>> she >>>> would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as well. >>>> She, >>>> apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about it >>>> when I >>>> observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It was >>>> just >>>> in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do with >>>> my >>>> vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is currently >>>> in a >>>> long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly blindness >>>> was >>>> not a turn-off to her. >>>> >>>> Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a big >>>> thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any >>>> significant >>>> others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as >>>> such. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> -Jamie >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Homberto, >>>>> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. >>>>> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, after >>>>> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to >>>>> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to >>>>> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if >>>>> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than a >>>>> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. >>>>> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a >>>>> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a lot, >>>>> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off if >>>>> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I >>>>> think most blind people would, too. >>>>> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's >>>>> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is >>>>> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and have >>>>> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person you >>>>> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have the >>>>> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person >>>>> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each other, >>>>> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight >>>>> shouldn't change anything. >>>>> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends >>>>> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term relationship, >>>>> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because sighted >>>>> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be >>>>> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a blind >>>>> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be >>>>> happy. >>>>> Take care, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Humberto, >>>>>> If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can do >>>>>> things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is >>>>>> >>>>> attracted >>>>> >>>>>> to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what >>>>>> feels >>>>>> right. >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Humberto >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello dear listers, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions >>>>>> on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion >>>>>> has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be >>>>>> good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are >>>>>> concerned. >>>>>> So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out >>>>>> with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main >>>>>> differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? >>>>>> Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? >>>>>> If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal >>>>>> with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How >>>>>> can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the >>>>>> blind person can become a competent member of society by doing >>>>>> everything else that a sighted person can do. >>>>>> I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as >>>>>> much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've >>>>>> been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in >>>>>> touch. >>>>>> would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a >>>>>> sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a >>>>>> characteristic? Will she understand that? >>>>>> I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just >>>>>> want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if >>>>>> I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my >>>>>> blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, >>>>>> and having high expectations. >>>>>> But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted >>>>>> person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, >>>>>> versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal >>>>>> gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through >>>>>> experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is >>>>>> sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, >>>>>> but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted >>>>>> people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first >>>>>> look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick >>>>>> with one or not. >>>>>> Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, Humberto >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Thu May 26 15:38:22 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 10:38:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> <279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com> <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> Message-ID: Yes. I want my wife, to be able to drive me from place to place, so my parents don't have to have that burden. That's the point! You win the million dollar prize! Blessings, Joshua On 5/26/11, Jamie Principato wrote: > I'm not sure I understand how this would create a "double burden" on your > family either. If she is an independent traveler, or independent in other > ways as well, why should she create any burden? Why would this hinder your > independence unless you're looking for a partner who could drive you around > and such so your parents don't have to (and I don't think you are! I'm just > saying, I don't understand your point.) > > On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Hope Paulos wrote: > >> First of all, I don't understand, Joshua, how you believe dating a blind >> person would double your dependence while traveling? I'm a compitent >> traveler and a totally blind one at that. I am a musician as well. To be >> honest, I don't care whether or not my boyfriend is sighted or blind. It's >> who he is that counts, not his disability or lack thereof. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" < >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org> >> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:13 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >> >> >> So you pick your life-partner on the basis of convenience? >>> >>> Mike Freeman >>> sent from my iPhone >>> >>> >>> On May 25, 2011, at 21:58, Joshua Lester >>> wrote: >>> >>> That's exactly the problem! >>>> Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! >>>> My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I was >>>> trained at LWSB. >>>> It's crazy! >>>> I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. >>>> Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. >>>> I don't want another blind person, because that would double my >>>> dependence, when it comes to traveling. >>>> I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. >>>> I like to travel to churches. >>>> It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a >>>> blind >>>> one. >>>> Remember, I'm totally blind. >>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>> >>>> On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>> >>>>> I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is totally >>>>> blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you from >>>>> my >>>>> own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had a >>>>> very >>>>> positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh in >>>>> much >>>>> when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that >>>>> people >>>>> with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd >>>>> known >>>>> several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate that >>>>> they >>>>> had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not their >>>>> fault, >>>>> mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and >>>>> teacher >>>>> misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's another >>>>> topic >>>>> entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we had >>>>> talked >>>>> a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my own >>>>> blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend time >>>>> with >>>>> him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, >>>>> one >>>>> way >>>>> or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was only >>>>> a >>>>> characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he >>>>> approached >>>>> blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 years >>>>> now, >>>>> and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have some >>>>> degree >>>>> of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the >>>>> one". >>>>> >>>>> On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a >>>>> completely >>>>> sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I might >>>>> as >>>>> well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I >>>>> really >>>>> think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to her. >>>>> I >>>>> felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick me >>>>> up or >>>>> I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere (which >>>>> often >>>>> resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired from >>>>> travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was available, >>>>> she >>>>> would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as well. >>>>> She, >>>>> apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about it >>>>> when I >>>>> observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It was >>>>> just >>>>> in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do >>>>> with >>>>> my >>>>> vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is currently >>>>> in a >>>>> long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly blindness >>>>> was >>>>> not a turn-off to her. >>>>> >>>>> Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a >>>>> big >>>>> thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any >>>>> significant >>>>> others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as >>>>> such. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> -Jamie >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Homberto, >>>>>> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. >>>>>> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, after >>>>>> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to >>>>>> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to >>>>>> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if >>>>>> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than a >>>>>> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. >>>>>> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a >>>>>> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a lot, >>>>>> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off if >>>>>> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I >>>>>> think most blind people would, too. >>>>>> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's >>>>>> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is >>>>>> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and have >>>>>> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person you >>>>>> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have the >>>>>> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person >>>>>> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each other, >>>>>> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight >>>>>> shouldn't change anything. >>>>>> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends >>>>>> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term relationship, >>>>>> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because sighted >>>>>> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be >>>>>> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a blind >>>>>> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be >>>>>> happy. >>>>>> Take care, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Humberto, >>>>>>> If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is >>>>>>> >>>>>> attracted >>>>>> >>>>>>> to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what >>>>>>> feels >>>>>>> right. >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Humberto >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM >>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello dear listers, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions >>>>>>> on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion >>>>>>> has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be >>>>>>> good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are >>>>>>> concerned. >>>>>>> So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out >>>>>>> with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main >>>>>>> differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? >>>>>>> Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? >>>>>>> If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal >>>>>>> with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How >>>>>>> can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the >>>>>>> blind person can become a competent member of society by doing >>>>>>> everything else that a sighted person can do. >>>>>>> I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as >>>>>>> much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've >>>>>>> been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in >>>>>>> touch. >>>>>>> would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a >>>>>>> sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a >>>>>>> characteristic? Will she understand that? >>>>>>> I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just >>>>>>> want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if >>>>>>> I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my >>>>>>> blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, >>>>>>> and having high expectations. >>>>>>> But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted >>>>>>> person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, >>>>>>> versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal >>>>>>> gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through >>>>>>> experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is >>>>>>> sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, >>>>>>> but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted >>>>>>> people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first >>>>>>> look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick >>>>>>> with one or not. >>>>>>> Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, Humberto >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Thu May 26 15:46:47 2011 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 11:46:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> <279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com> <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> Message-ID: Wouldn't it be easier, and less limiting in terms of who can be a potential partner, to try to learn these skills? I was a bit worried about this as well when I started a relationship with a blind person, but five years in, no one *has* to drive us anywhere. It was just a matter of learning the skills and practicing, and actually, being together helped us a lot with that. We always had someone to lean on for support and encouragement, and to "compare notes" with when we were trying to figure out a new skill. We still have a lot to learn, but no more than any college student living on their own for the first time. Just saying that sometimes a blind partner can be really good in terms of offering support and helping you become independent. My boyfriend knew a lot more than I did about travel, computers, and so on in the beginning, and has showed me a lot, and now I help him with things like learning to cook and such. On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Joshua Lester < jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote: > Yes. > I want my wife, to be able to drive me from place to place, so my > parents don't have to have that burden. > That's the point! > You win the million dollar prize! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 5/26/11, Jamie Principato wrote: > > I'm not sure I understand how this would create a "double burden" on your > > family either. If she is an independent traveler, or independent in other > > ways as well, why should she create any burden? Why would this hinder > your > > independence unless you're looking for a partner who could drive you > around > > and such so your parents don't have to (and I don't think you are! I'm > just > > saying, I don't understand your point.) > > > > On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Hope Paulos > wrote: > > > >> First of all, I don't understand, Joshua, how you believe dating a blind > >> person would double your dependence while traveling? I'm a compitent > >> traveler and a totally blind one at that. I am a musician as well. To be > >> honest, I don't care whether or not my boyfriend is sighted or blind. > It's > >> who he is that counts, not his disability or lack thereof. > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" < > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org> > >> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:13 AM > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? > >> > >> > >> So you pick your life-partner on the basis of convenience? > >>> > >>> Mike Freeman > >>> sent from my iPhone > >>> > >>> > >>> On May 25, 2011, at 21:58, Joshua Lester < > jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> That's exactly the problem! > >>>> Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! > >>>> My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I was > >>>> trained at LWSB. > >>>> It's crazy! > >>>> I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. > >>>> Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. > >>>> I don't want another blind person, because that would double my > >>>> dependence, when it comes to traveling. > >>>> I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. > >>>> I like to travel to churches. > >>>> It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a > >>>> blind > >>>> one. > >>>> Remember, I'm totally blind. > >>>> Blessings, Joshua > >>>> > >>>> On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is > totally > >>>>> blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you > from > >>>>> my > >>>>> own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had a > >>>>> very > >>>>> positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh > in > >>>>> much > >>>>> when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that > >>>>> people > >>>>> with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd > >>>>> known > >>>>> several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate > that > >>>>> they > >>>>> had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not their > >>>>> fault, > >>>>> mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and > >>>>> teacher > >>>>> misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's > another > >>>>> topic > >>>>> entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we had > >>>>> talked > >>>>> a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my > own > >>>>> blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend > time > >>>>> with > >>>>> him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, > >>>>> one > >>>>> way > >>>>> or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was > only > >>>>> a > >>>>> characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he > >>>>> approached > >>>>> blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 > years > >>>>> now, > >>>>> and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have some > >>>>> degree > >>>>> of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the > >>>>> one". > >>>>> > >>>>> On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a > >>>>> completely > >>>>> sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I > might > >>>>> as > >>>>> well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I > >>>>> really > >>>>> think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to > her. > >>>>> I > >>>>> felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick > me > >>>>> up or > >>>>> I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere > (which > >>>>> often > >>>>> resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired > from > >>>>> travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was available, > >>>>> she > >>>>> would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as well. > >>>>> She, > >>>>> apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about it > >>>>> when I > >>>>> observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It was > >>>>> just > >>>>> in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do > >>>>> with > >>>>> my > >>>>> vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is > currently > >>>>> in a > >>>>> long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly > blindness > >>>>> was > >>>>> not a turn-off to her. > >>>>> > >>>>> Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a > >>>>> big > >>>>> thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any > >>>>> significant > >>>>> others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as > >>>>> such. > >>>>> > >>>>> Best, > >>>>> > >>>>> -Jamie > >>>>> > >>>>> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Homberto, > >>>>>> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. > >>>>>> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, > after > >>>>>> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to > >>>>>> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to > >>>>>> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if > >>>>>> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than a > >>>>>> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. > >>>>>> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a > >>>>>> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a > lot, > >>>>>> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off if > >>>>>> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I > >>>>>> think most blind people would, too. > >>>>>> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's > >>>>>> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is > >>>>>> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and have > >>>>>> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person you > >>>>>> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have > the > >>>>>> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person > >>>>>> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each > other, > >>>>>> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight > >>>>>> shouldn't change anything. > >>>>>> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends > >>>>>> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term > relationship, > >>>>>> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because sighted > >>>>>> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be > >>>>>> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a blind > >>>>>> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be > >>>>>> happy. > >>>>>> Take care, > >>>>>> Kirt > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Humberto, > >>>>>>> If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can > >>>>>>> do > >>>>>>> things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> attracted > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what > >>>>>>> feels > >>>>>>> right. > >>>>>>> Ashley > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: Humberto > >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM > >>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hello dear listers, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions > >>>>>>> on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion > >>>>>>> has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be > >>>>>>> good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are > >>>>>>> concerned. > >>>>>>> So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out > >>>>>>> with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main > >>>>>>> differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? > >>>>>>> Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? > >>>>>>> If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal > >>>>>>> with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How > >>>>>>> can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the > >>>>>>> blind person can become a competent member of society by doing > >>>>>>> everything else that a sighted person can do. > >>>>>>> I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as > >>>>>>> much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've > >>>>>>> been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in > >>>>>>> touch. > >>>>>>> would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a > >>>>>>> sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a > >>>>>>> characteristic? Will she understand that? > >>>>>>> I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just > >>>>>>> want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if > >>>>>>> I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my > >>>>>>> blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, > >>>>>>> and having high expectations. > >>>>>>> But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted > >>>>>>> person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, > >>>>>>> versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal > >>>>>>> gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through > >>>>>>> experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is > >>>>>>> sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, > >>>>>>> but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted > >>>>>>> people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first > >>>>>>> look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick > >>>>>>> with one or not. > >>>>>>> Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Cheers, Humberto > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Thu May 26 15:52:24 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 10:52:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> <279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com> <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> Message-ID: What skills? How do you get from place to place? I live in a small town, that doesn't have public transportation, and I need to get from point A, to point B. Also, another stumbling block, when it comes to dating a blind person, is my allergies. If the person I'm dating has a guide dog, it would have to go, because I'm allergic to dogs. Blessings, Joshua On 5/26/11, Jamie Principato wrote: > Wouldn't it be easier, and less limiting in terms of who can be a potential > partner, to try to learn these skills? I was a bit worried about this as > well when I started a relationship with a blind person, but five years in, > no one *has* to drive us anywhere. It was just a matter of learning the > skills and practicing, and actually, being together helped us a lot with > that. We always had someone to lean on for support and encouragement, and to > "compare notes" with when we were trying to figure out a new skill. We still > have a lot to learn, but no more than any college student living on their > own for the first time. Just saying that sometimes a blind partner can be > really good in terms of offering support and helping you become independent. > My boyfriend knew a lot more than I did about travel, computers, and so on > in the beginning, and has showed me a lot, and now I help him with things > like learning to cook and such. > > On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Joshua Lester < > jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote: > >> Yes. >> I want my wife, to be able to drive me from place to place, so my >> parents don't have to have that burden. >> That's the point! >> You win the million dollar prize! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 5/26/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >> > I'm not sure I understand how this would create a "double burden" on >> > your >> > family either. If she is an independent traveler, or independent in >> > other >> > ways as well, why should she create any burden? Why would this hinder >> your >> > independence unless you're looking for a partner who could drive you >> around >> > and such so your parents don't have to (and I don't think you are! I'm >> just >> > saying, I don't understand your point.) >> > >> > On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Hope Paulos >> wrote: >> > >> >> First of all, I don't understand, Joshua, how you believe dating a >> >> blind >> >> person would double your dependence while traveling? I'm a compitent >> >> traveler and a totally blind one at that. I am a musician as well. To >> >> be >> >> honest, I don't care whether or not my boyfriend is sighted or blind. >> It's >> >> who he is that counts, not his disability or lack thereof. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" >> >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" < >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org> >> >> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:13 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >> >> >> >> >> >> So you pick your life-partner on the basis of convenience? >> >>> >> >>> Mike Freeman >> >>> sent from my iPhone >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On May 25, 2011, at 21:58, Joshua Lester < >> jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> That's exactly the problem! >> >>>> Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! >> >>>> My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I was >> >>>> trained at LWSB. >> >>>> It's crazy! >> >>>> I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. >> >>>> Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. >> >>>> I don't want another blind person, because that would double my >> >>>> dependence, when it comes to traveling. >> >>>> I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. >> >>>> I like to travel to churches. >> >>>> It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a >> >>>> blind >> >>>> one. >> >>>> Remember, I'm totally blind. >> >>>> Blessings, Joshua >> >>>> >> >>>> On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is >> totally >> >>>>> blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you >> from >> >>>>> my >> >>>>> own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had >> >>>>> a >> >>>>> very >> >>>>> positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh >> in >> >>>>> much >> >>>>> when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that >> >>>>> people >> >>>>> with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd >> >>>>> known >> >>>>> several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate >> that >> >>>>> they >> >>>>> had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not >> >>>>> their >> >>>>> fault, >> >>>>> mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and >> >>>>> teacher >> >>>>> misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's >> another >> >>>>> topic >> >>>>> entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we >> >>>>> had >> >>>>> talked >> >>>>> a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my >> own >> >>>>> blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend >> time >> >>>>> with >> >>>>> him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, >> >>>>> one >> >>>>> way >> >>>>> or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was >> only >> >>>>> a >> >>>>> characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he >> >>>>> approached >> >>>>> blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 >> years >> >>>>> now, >> >>>>> and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have >> >>>>> some >> >>>>> degree >> >>>>> of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the >> >>>>> one". >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a >> >>>>> completely >> >>>>> sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I >> might >> >>>>> as >> >>>>> well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I >> >>>>> really >> >>>>> think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to >> her. >> >>>>> I >> >>>>> felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick >> me >> >>>>> up or >> >>>>> I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere >> (which >> >>>>> often >> >>>>> resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired >> from >> >>>>> travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was >> >>>>> available, >> >>>>> she >> >>>>> would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as >> >>>>> well. >> >>>>> She, >> >>>>> apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about >> >>>>> it >> >>>>> when I >> >>>>> observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It >> >>>>> was >> >>>>> just >> >>>>> in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do >> >>>>> with >> >>>>> my >> >>>>> vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is >> currently >> >>>>> in a >> >>>>> long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly >> blindness >> >>>>> was >> >>>>> not a turn-off to her. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a >> >>>>> big >> >>>>> thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any >> >>>>> significant >> >>>>> others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as >> >>>>> such. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Best, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -Jamie >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring >> >>>>> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Homberto, >> >>>>>> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. >> >>>>>> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, >> after >> >>>>>> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to >> >>>>>> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to >> >>>>>> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if >> >>>>>> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than >> >>>>>> a >> >>>>>> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. >> >>>>>> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a >> >>>>>> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a >> lot, >> >>>>>> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off >> >>>>>> if >> >>>>>> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I >> >>>>>> think most blind people would, too. >> >>>>>> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's >> >>>>>> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is >> >>>>>> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and >> >>>>>> have >> >>>>>> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person >> >>>>>> you >> >>>>>> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have >> the >> >>>>>> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person >> >>>>>> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each >> other, >> >>>>>> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight >> >>>>>> shouldn't change anything. >> >>>>>> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends >> >>>>>> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term >> relationship, >> >>>>>> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because >> >>>>>> sighted >> >>>>>> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be >> >>>>>> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a >> >>>>>> blind >> >>>>>> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be >> >>>>>> happy. >> >>>>>> Take care, >> >>>>>> Kirt >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net >> >>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Humberto, >> >>>>>>> If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you >> >>>>>>> can >> >>>>>>> do >> >>>>>>> things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> attracted >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with >> >>>>>>> what >> >>>>>>> feels >> >>>>>>> right. >> >>>>>>> Ashley >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>>>> From: Humberto >> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM >> >>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>>> Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Hello dear listers, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions >> >>>>>>> on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion >> >>>>>>> has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be >> >>>>>>> good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are >> >>>>>>> concerned. >> >>>>>>> So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out >> >>>>>>> with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main >> >>>>>>> differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? >> >>>>>>> Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? >> >>>>>>> If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal >> >>>>>>> with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How >> >>>>>>> can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the >> >>>>>>> blind person can become a competent member of society by doing >> >>>>>>> everything else that a sighted person can do. >> >>>>>>> I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as >> >>>>>>> much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've >> >>>>>>> been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in >> >>>>>>> touch. >> >>>>>>> would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a >> >>>>>>> sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a >> >>>>>>> characteristic? Will she understand that? >> >>>>>>> I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just >> >>>>>>> want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if >> >>>>>>> I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my >> >>>>>>> blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, >> >>>>>>> and having high expectations. >> >>>>>>> But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted >> >>>>>>> person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, >> >>>>>>> versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal >> >>>>>>> gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through >> >>>>>>> experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is >> >>>>>>> sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, >> >>>>>>> but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted >> >>>>>>> people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first >> >>>>>>> look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick >> >>>>>>> with one or not. >> >>>>>>> Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Cheers, Humberto >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> >>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> >>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>> for >> >>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> >> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From jrhoads284 at gmail.com Thu May 26 16:01:56 2011 From: jrhoads284 at gmail.com (Jamie Rhoads ) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 12:01:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> <279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com> <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> Message-ID: <01bd01cc1bbe$3dbaa4c0$b92fee40$@com> I have to agree with Hope on this. Isn't what she said what we all want? We want people to look at us and see us, not our disability. So, is it fair to say we want someone with sight when what we want is someone to look past the blindness to the real person. I'm just saying you're no different than the sighted person who doesn't want the blind person if you say you only want to date someone who is sighted. Yes, it makes things perhaps a little harder if neither of you can drive, but again, if you love the person or care for them, you'll work it out. IT shouldn't even be a factor. As for the guide dog thing and being allergic, well there are ways around that too. You either just don't date someone who has a dog, or you work through it some other way. I don't think its necessary to say you won't ever date someone who is blind just because of the dog thing either. There are plenty of blind people who don't have dogs. Jamie . -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hope Paulos Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:26 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? First of all, I don't understand, Joshua, how you believe dating a blind person would double your dependence while traveling? I'm a compitent traveler and a totally blind one at that. I am a musician as well. To be honest, I don't care whether or not my boyfriend is sighted or blind. It's who he is that counts, not his disability or lack thereof. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? > So you pick your life-partner on the basis of convenience? > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 25, 2011, at 21:58, Joshua Lester > wrote: > >> That's exactly the problem! >> Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! >> My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I was >> trained at LWSB. >> It's crazy! >> I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. >> Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. >> I don't want another blind person, because that would double my >> dependence, when it comes to traveling. >> I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. >> I like to travel to churches. >> It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a blind >> one. >> Remember, I'm totally blind. >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>> I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is totally >>> blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you from >>> my >>> own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had a >>> very >>> positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh in >>> much >>> when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that >>> people >>> with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd >>> known >>> several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate that >>> they >>> had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not their >>> fault, >>> mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and >>> teacher >>> misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's another >>> topic >>> entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we had >>> talked >>> a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my own >>> blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend time >>> with >>> him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, one >>> way >>> or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was only a >>> characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he >>> approached >>> blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 years >>> now, >>> and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have some >>> degree >>> of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the >>> one". >>> >>> On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a >>> completely >>> sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I might >>> as >>> well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I >>> really >>> think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to her. I >>> felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick me >>> up or >>> I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere (which >>> often >>> resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired from >>> travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was available, >>> she >>> would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as well. >>> She, >>> apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about it >>> when I >>> observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It was >>> just >>> in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do with >>> my >>> vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is currently >>> in a >>> long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly blindness >>> was >>> not a turn-off to her. >>> >>> Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a big >>> thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any >>> significant >>> others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as >>> such. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> -Jamie >>> >>> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Homberto, >>>> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. >>>> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, after >>>> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to >>>> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to >>>> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if >>>> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than a >>>> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. >>>> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a >>>> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a lot, >>>> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off if >>>> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I >>>> think most blind people would, too. >>>> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's >>>> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is >>>> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and have >>>> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person you >>>> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have the >>>> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person >>>> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each other, >>>> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight >>>> shouldn't change anything. >>>> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends >>>> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term relationship, >>>> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because sighted >>>> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be >>>> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a blind >>>> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be >>>> happy. >>>> Take care, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net >>>> wrote: >>>>> Humberto, >>>>> If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can do >>>>> things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is >>>> attracted >>>>> to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what >>>>> feels >>>>> right. >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Humberto >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>>> >>>>> Hello dear listers, >>>>> >>>>> I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions >>>>> on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion >>>>> has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be >>>>> good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are >>>>> concerned. >>>>> So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out >>>>> with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main >>>>> differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? >>>>> Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? >>>>> If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal >>>>> with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How >>>>> can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the >>>>> blind person can become a competent member of society by doing >>>>> everything else that a sighted person can do. >>>>> I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as >>>>> much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've >>>>> been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in >>>>> touch. >>>>> would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a >>>>> sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a >>>>> characteristic? Will she understand that? >>>>> I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just >>>>> want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if >>>>> I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my >>>>> blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, >>>>> and having high expectations. >>>>> But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted >>>>> person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, >>>>> versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal >>>>> gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through >>>>> experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is >>>>> sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, >>>>> but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted >>>>> people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first >>>>> look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick >>>>> with one or not. >>>>> Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, Humberto >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail .com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40studen ts.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail. com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jrhoads284%40gmail.c om From aaatlantic at aol.com Thu May 26 16:11:52 2011 From: aaatlantic at aol.com (Alexander) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 12:11:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] dating sighted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> <279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com> <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> Message-ID: <001001cc1bbf$a0365300$e0a2f900$@com> Hello all, my name is Alex Atlantic and I am very independent person. I myself dated both sided and blind people. I really don't see the different between them. On the other hand I am musician and I have one of the highest paying jobs. It depends on the person. I know few blind people they chose to go out with sided people because he or she can drive and I don't think that is rite. Me personally I look at their personality I really don't care if they drive or not that don't matter to me because I have enough independents to take a bus, cab, or other way. Thanks Alex Atlantic -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hope Paulos Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:26 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? First of all, I don't understand, Joshua, how you believe dating a blind person would double your dependence while traveling? I'm a compitent traveler and a totally blind one at that. I am a musician as well. To be honest, I don't care whether or not my boyfriend is sighted or blind. It's who he is that counts, not his disability or lack thereof. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? > So you pick your life-partner on the basis of convenience? > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 25, 2011, at 21:58, Joshua Lester > wrote: > >> That's exactly the problem! >> Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! >> My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I was >> trained at LWSB. >> It's crazy! >> I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. >> Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. >> I don't want another blind person, because that would double my >> dependence, when it comes to traveling. >> I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. >> I like to travel to churches. >> It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a blind >> one. >> Remember, I'm totally blind. >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>> I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is totally >>> blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you from >>> my >>> own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had a >>> very >>> positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh in >>> much >>> when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that >>> people >>> with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd >>> known >>> several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate that >>> they >>> had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not their >>> fault, >>> mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and >>> teacher >>> misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's another >>> topic >>> entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we had >>> talked >>> a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my own >>> blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend time >>> with >>> him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, one >>> way >>> or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was only a >>> characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he >>> approached >>> blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 years >>> now, >>> and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have some >>> degree >>> of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the >>> one". >>> >>> On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a >>> completely >>> sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I might >>> as >>> well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I >>> really >>> think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to her. I >>> felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick me >>> up or >>> I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere (which >>> often >>> resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired from >>> travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was available, >>> she >>> would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as well. >>> She, >>> apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about it >>> when I >>> observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It was >>> just >>> in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do with >>> my >>> vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is currently >>> in a >>> long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly blindness >>> was >>> not a turn-off to her. >>> >>> Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a big >>> thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any >>> significant >>> others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as >>> such. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> -Jamie >>> >>> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Homberto, >>>> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. >>>> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, after >>>> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to >>>> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to >>>> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if >>>> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than a >>>> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. >>>> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a >>>> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a lot, >>>> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off if >>>> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I >>>> think most blind people would, too. >>>> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's >>>> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is >>>> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and have >>>> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person you >>>> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have the >>>> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person >>>> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each other, >>>> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight >>>> shouldn't change anything. >>>> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends >>>> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term relationship, >>>> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because sighted >>>> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be >>>> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a blind >>>> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be >>>> happy. >>>> Take care, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net >>>> wrote: >>>>> Humberto, >>>>> If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can do >>>>> things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is >>>> attracted >>>>> to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what >>>>> feels >>>>> right. >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Humberto >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>>> >>>>> Hello dear listers, >>>>> >>>>> I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions >>>>> on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion >>>>> has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be >>>>> good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are >>>>> concerned. >>>>> So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out >>>>> with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main >>>>> differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? >>>>> Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? >>>>> If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal >>>>> with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How >>>>> can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the >>>>> blind person can become a competent member of society by doing >>>>> everything else that a sighted person can do. >>>>> I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as >>>>> much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've >>>>> been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in >>>>> touch. >>>>> would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a >>>>> sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a >>>>> characteristic? Will she understand that? >>>>> I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just >>>>> want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if >>>>> I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my >>>>> blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, >>>>> and having high expectations. >>>>> But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted >>>>> person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, >>>>> versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal >>>>> gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through >>>>> experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is >>>>> sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, >>>>> but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted >>>>> people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first >>>>> look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick >>>>> with one or not. >>>>> Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, Humberto >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail .com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40studen ts.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail. com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aaatlantic%40aol.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3660 - Release Date: 05/26/11 06:34:00 From rloew at ETS.ORG Thu May 26 16:27:56 2011 From: rloew at ETS.ORG (Loew, Ruth) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 09:27:56 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Math-to-Speech technology project Message-ID: New Math-to-Speech Technologies to Help Blind and Visually Impaired Students Master Mathematics Princeton, N.J. (May 24, 2011) - Educational Testing Service (ETS) and Design Science have announced they are working jointly to modify MathType(tm) and MathPlayer(tm), so that classroom materials, tests and other documents containing mathematical content may be clearly spoken by computers. This new math-to-speech technology will provide students who are blind or have other visual impairments the tools they need to learn, practice, and take math and science tests on a more equal footing with their classroom peers. Some of the country's leading subject-matter experts and developers of assistive technology for students who are blind or visually impaired will assist on the project which begins July 1, 2011, and is supported by a $1.5 million Institute of Education Sciences grant. "Existing assistive technology that provides synthetic speech for electronic text does at best a limited job of making math accessible for this group of students," explains Lois Frankel, an ETS Assessment Specialist and the leader of the effort. "The current technology falls short because it generally does not 'know' how to describe mathematical expressions, especially in a way that provides access to their nonlinear structure. "ETS and Design Science will work together to enhance MathPlayer, the tool that voices the math encoded in MathML, so that it sounds more like what students - particularly those in Algebra I - are used to hearing," Frankel says. "We also plan to work on a number of customizations to MathType, including a feature to allow teachers and other users to select how mathematical expressions are described. For example, they could select whether the machine says 'four over five' or 'four fifths.' Another customization we plan to add is keyboard navigation that allows blind or visually impaired users to go back and replay voiced segments in mathematically meaningful 'chunks.' Our goal is to provide students and teachers with a better system for voicing mathematical notation that includes some truly useful functionality." "It has been a long-term Design Science goal to make math accessible, and our team has been working hard at it for over six years," said Neil Soiffer, Senior Scientist at Design Science. "It's a great opportunity to be partnering with an organization the stature and importance of ETS, to push the state-of-the-art forward." Working with Frankel and Soiffer on the effort are ETS Assessment Specialist Beth Brownstein, Research Scientist Eric Hansen, and Senior Research Scientist Cara Laitusis. Among the other organizations and consultants who will take part in the project are: * De Witt & Associates, specializes in accessibility training, learning systems and support, and will provide advice on the implementation of MathML accessibility tools and assist in the development of training modules for students and teachers. * GW Micro, a leading firm in the adaptive technology industry, will modify its Window-Eyes screen reader software to work seamlessly with the tools developed by the project. * Jim Allan, the accessibility coordinator and webmaster for the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. * Maylene Bird, a teacher of mathematics to visually impaired students at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. * Christine Hinton, a Program Development Specialist for the New Jersey Commission for the Blind and Visually Impaired, will help recruit student participants from inclusive schools in New Jersey. * Gaylen Kapperman, a professor with a visual disability, with specialization in research and development projects pertaining to mathematics instruction and assistive technology used by individuals who are blind or are visually impaired. * Abraham Nemeth, the author of The Nemeth Braille Code for Mathematics and Science Notation and a blind expert in making mathematics accessible to blind individuals. * Susan Osterhaus, a secondary mathematics teacher and statewide math accessibility expert at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. "The criteria for success in this project will be three-fold," explains Marisa Farnum, Vice President of Assessment Development at ETS. "First, will students using the tailored tools over the status quo be better able to solve algebra problems at an appropriate level? And, are they better able to correctly identify the structure of algebra-level math expressions when using the tools? Second, will math teachers be able to use the authoring tools developed by this project to quickly and easily create math materials that are accessible to their students with visual impairments? And finally, do the teachers and students who participate as subjects in these development efforts find the tools provided usable and convenient?" About ETS At nonprofit ETS, we advance quality and equity in education for people worldwide by creating assessments based on rigorous research. ETS serves individuals, educational institutions and government agencies by providing customized solutions for teacher certification, English language learning, and elementary, secondary and post-secondary education, as well as conducting education research, analysis and policy studies. Founded in 1947, ETS develops, administers and scores more than 50 million tests annually - including the TOEFL(r) and TOEIC(r) tests, the GRE(r) tests and The Praxis Series(tm) assessments - in more than 180 countries, at over 9,000 locations worldwide. www.ets.org. About Design Science Founded in 1986 and headquartered in Long Beach, California, Design Science develops software used by educators, scientists and publishing professionals, including MathType, Equation Editor in Microsoft Office, MathFlow, MathDaisy and MathPlayer, to communicate on the web and in print. For more information please visit www.dessci.com. Ruth C. Loew, Ph.D. Assistant Director Office of Disability Policy, ETS phone: 609-683-2984 fax: 609-683-2220 From serena.c.cucco at gmail.com Thu May 26 16:36:04 2011 From: serena.c.cucco at gmail.com (Serena Cucco) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 12:36:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Math-to-Speech technology project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8E1B0FFA42DD487AA9B9AAC841A249A6@SerenaPC> Just wondering, might this project deal with more advanced Math, such as Statistics, in the future? Serena -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Loew, Ruth Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 12:28 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Math-to-Speech technology project New Math-to-Speech Technologies to Help Blind and Visually Impaired Students Master Mathematics Princeton, N.J. (May 24, 2011) - Educational Testing Service (ETS) and Design Science have announced they are working jointly to modify MathType(tm) and MathPlayer(tm), so that classroom materials, tests and other documents containing mathematical content may be clearly spoken by computers. This new math-to-speech technology will provide students who are blind or have other visual impairments the tools they need to learn, practice, and take math and science tests on a more equal footing with their classroom peers. Some of the country's leading subject-matter experts and developers of assistive technology for students who are blind or visually impaired will assist on the project which begins July 1, 2011, and is supported by a $1.5 million Institute of Education Sciences grant. "Existing assistive technology that provides synthetic speech for electronic text does at best a limited job of making math accessible for this group of students," explains Lois Frankel, an ETS Assessment Specialist and the leader of the effort. "The current technology falls short because it generally does not 'know' how to describe mathematical expressions, especially in a way that provides access to their nonlinear structure. "ETS and Design Science will work together to enhance MathPlayer, the tool that voices the math encoded in MathML, so that it sounds more like what students - particularly those in Algebra I - are used to hearing," Frankel says. "We also plan to work on a number of customizations to MathType, including a feature to allow teachers and other users to select how mathematical expressions are described. For example, they could select whether the machine says 'four over five' or 'four fifths.' Another customization we plan to add is keyboard navigation that allows blind or visually impaired users to go back and replay voiced segments in mathematically meaningful 'chunks.' Our goal is to provide students and teachers with a better system for voicing mathematical notation that includes some truly useful functionality." "It has been a long-term Design Science goal to make math accessible, and our team has been working hard at it for over six years," said Neil Soiffer, Senior Scientist at Design Science. "It's a great opportunity to be partnering with an organization the stature and importance of ETS, to push the state-of-the-art forward." Working with Frankel and Soiffer on the effort are ETS Assessment Specialist Beth Brownstein, Research Scientist Eric Hansen, and Senior Research Scientist Cara Laitusis. Among the other organizations and consultants who will take part in the project are: * De Witt & Associates, specializes in accessibility training, learning systems and support, and will provide advice on the implementation of MathML accessibility tools and assist in the development of training modules for students and teachers. * GW Micro, a leading firm in the adaptive technology industry, will modify its Window-Eyes screen reader software to work seamlessly with the tools developed by the project. * Jim Allan, the accessibility coordinator and webmaster for the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. * Maylene Bird, a teacher of mathematics to visually impaired students at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. * Christine Hinton, a Program Development Specialist for the New Jersey Commission for the Blind and Visually Impaired, will help recruit student participants from inclusive schools in New Jersey. * Gaylen Kapperman, a professor with a visual disability, with specialization in research and development projects pertaining to mathematics instruction and assistive technology used by individuals who are blind or are visually impaired. * Abraham Nemeth, the author of The Nemeth Braille Code for Mathematics and Science Notation and a blind expert in making mathematics accessible to blind individuals. * Susan Osterhaus, a secondary mathematics teacher and statewide math accessibility expert at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. "The criteria for success in this project will be three-fold," explains Marisa Farnum, Vice President of Assessment Development at ETS. "First, will students using the tailored tools over the status quo be better able to solve algebra problems at an appropriate level? And, are they better able to correctly identify the structure of algebra-level math expressions when using the tools? Second, will math teachers be able to use the authoring tools developed by this project to quickly and easily create math materials that are accessible to their students with visual impairments? And finally, do the teachers and students who participate as subjects in these development efforts find the tools provided usable and convenient?" About ETS At nonprofit ETS, we advance quality and equity in education for people worldwide by creating assessments based on rigorous research. ETS serves individuals, educational institutions and government agencies by providing customized solutions for teacher certification, English language learning, and elementary, secondary and post-secondary education, as well as conducting education research, analysis and policy studies. Founded in 1947, ETS develops, administers and scores more than 50 million tests annually - including the TOEFL(r) and TOEIC(r) tests, the GRE(r) tests and The Praxis Series(tm) assessments - in more than 180 countries, at over 9,000 locations worldwide. www.ets.org. About Design Science Founded in 1986 and headquartered in Long Beach, California, Design Science develops software used by educators, scientists and publishing professionals, including MathType, Equation Editor in Microsoft Office, MathFlow, MathDaisy and MathPlayer, to communicate on the web and in print. For more information please visit www.dessci.com. Ruth C. Loew, Ph.D. Assistant Director Office of Disability Policy, ETS phone: 609-683-2984 fax: 609-683-2220 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serena.c.cucco%40gma il.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thu May 26 16:41:43 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 09:41:43 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Message-ID: Hello all, Something that I have been thinking about is how we in the NFB tend to treat each other when we don't understand one's lifestyle, choice of phrases, thought processes. It is true that as humans we tend to fear the unknown, and act out in ignorance, but sometimes I feel like it boarders on the extreme. I would like to see what people find to be true in their expiriences and how we can be accepting of people at whatever point that they are at in their life expirences, education, blindness etc. I would be very interested to hear about constructive stradigies people have used to get this done. Best, Darian -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From kfjelsted at gmail.com Thu May 26 16:48:53 2011 From: kfjelsted at gmail.com (Kevin Fjelsted) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 11:48:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Math-to-Speech technology project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1C2D78D6-986E-434B-B508-23842753EED9@gmail.com> THis is definitely a very dangerous slippery slope to put so much emphasis on speech for Math. I am currently fighting a huge battle with a disability services office for major university who has tried to force the use of speech over Braille Nemeth code. In the first place if there is any extensive math to be done the problem steps are almost always going to require that one write them down. If one is BLind then Nemeth code is the only way to go. This touches at the very root of an issue that is trying to force speech at the expense of Braille. to provide an excuse to avoid using Braille by permitting speech for Math is very dangerous. As much emphasis should be placed on accurate translation to Braille Nemeth in this project as the speech effort. For this amount of money, is any of it being allocated to Nemeth Braille on the fly support translation from Design Science software? -Kevin On May 26, 2011, at 11:27 AM, Loew, Ruth wrote: > New Math-to-Speech Technologies to Help Blind and Visually Impaired Students Master Mathematics > > Princeton, N.J. (May 24, 2011) - > Educational Testing Service (ETS) and Design Science have announced they are working jointly to modify MathType(tm) and MathPlayer(tm), so that classroom materials, tests and other documents containing mathematical content may be clearly spoken by computers. This new math-to-speech technology will provide students who are blind or have other visual impairments the tools they need to learn, practice, and take math and science tests on a more equal footing with their classroom peers. > Some of the country's leading subject-matter experts and developers of assistive technology for students who are blind or visually impaired will assist on the project which begins July 1, 2011, and is supported by a $1.5 million Institute of Education Sciences grant. > "Existing assistive technology that provides synthetic speech for electronic text does at best a limited job of making math accessible for this group of students," explains Lois Frankel, an ETS Assessment Specialist and the leader of the effort. "The current technology falls short because it generally does not 'know' how to describe mathematical expressions, especially in a way that provides access to their nonlinear structure. > "ETS and Design Science will work together to enhance MathPlayer, the tool that voices the math encoded in MathML, so that it sounds more like what students - particularly those in Algebra I - are used to hearing," Frankel says. "We also plan to work on a number of customizations to MathType, including a feature to allow teachers and other users to select how mathematical expressions are described. For example, they could select whether the machine says 'four over five' or 'four fifths.' Another customization we plan to add is keyboard navigation that allows blind or visually impaired users to go back and replay voiced segments in mathematically meaningful 'chunks.' Our goal is to provide students and teachers with a better system for voicing mathematical notation that includes some truly useful functionality." > "It has been a long-term Design Science goal to make math accessible, and our team has been working hard at it for over six years," said Neil Soiffer, Senior Scientist at Design Science. "It's a great opportunity to be partnering with an organization the stature and importance of ETS, to push the state-of-the-art forward." > Working with Frankel and Soiffer on the effort are ETS Assessment Specialist Beth Brownstein, Research Scientist Eric Hansen, and Senior Research Scientist Cara Laitusis. Among the other organizations and consultants who will take part in the project are: > * > > De Witt & Associates, specializes in accessibility training, learning systems and support, and will provide advice on the implementation of MathML accessibility tools and assist in the development of training modules for students and teachers. > * GW Micro, a leading firm in the adaptive technology industry, will modify its Window-Eyes screen reader software to work seamlessly with the tools developed by the project. > * Jim Allan, the accessibility coordinator and webmaster for the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. > * Maylene Bird, a teacher of mathematics to visually impaired students at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. > * Christine Hinton, a Program Development Specialist for the New Jersey Commission for the Blind and Visually Impaired, will help recruit student participants from inclusive schools in New Jersey. > * Gaylen Kapperman, a professor with a visual disability, with specialization in research and development projects pertaining to mathematics instruction and assistive technology used by individuals who are blind or are visually impaired. > * Abraham Nemeth, the author of The Nemeth Braille Code for Mathematics and Science Notation and a blind expert in making mathematics accessible to blind individuals. > * Susan Osterhaus, a secondary mathematics teacher and statewide math accessibility expert at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. > "The criteria for success in this project will be three-fold," explains Marisa Farnum, Vice President of Assessment Development at ETS. "First, will students using the tailored tools over the status quo be better able to solve algebra problems at an appropriate level? And, are they better able to correctly identify the structure of algebra-level math expressions when using the tools? Second, will math teachers be able to use the authoring tools developed by this project to quickly and easily create math materials that are accessible to their students with visual impairments? And finally, do the teachers and students who participate as subjects in these development efforts find the tools provided usable and convenient?" > About ETS > At nonprofit ETS, we advance quality and equity in education for people worldwide by creating assessments based on rigorous research. ETS serves individuals, educational institutions and government agencies by providing customized solutions for teacher certification, English language learning, and elementary, secondary and post-secondary education, as well as conducting education research, analysis and policy studies. Founded in 1947, ETS develops, administers and scores more than 50 million tests annually - including the TOEFL(r) and TOEIC(r) tests, the GRE(r) tests and The Praxis Series(tm) assessments - in more than 180 countries, at over 9,000 locations worldwide. www.ets.org. > > About Design Science > Founded in 1986 and headquartered in Long Beach, California, Design Science develops software used by educators, scientists and publishing professionals, including MathType, Equation Editor in Microsoft Office, MathFlow, MathDaisy and MathPlayer, to communicate on the web and in print. For more information please visit www.dessci.com. > > Ruth C. Loew, Ph.D. > Assistant Director > Office of Disability Policy, ETS > phone: 609-683-2984 > fax: 609-683-2220 > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com From k7uij at panix.com Thu May 26 16:50:16 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 09:50:16 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> <279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com> <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> Message-ID: Joshua: With respect, you've got blinders on. What's to prevent you from using paratransit? You write as if you're going to remain at home forever. That will happen only if you let it. Moreover, you say you hate depending upon others for transportation. I submit that this is just one of the nuisances of blindness! No sense stewing about it. And remember that we members of species homo sapiens sapiens do not live in isolation; we live in a world of interdependence. As you grow in skills and confidence, sighted persons may well depend upon you for some things. does this mean that they are a burden because they require your help? I think not. Then how is this different from your situation? Independence is as much a state of mind as anything else. Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 26, 2011, at 8:31, Joshua Lester wrote: > I am talking about the transportation part of it. > I hate having to be dependent on others for transportation. > My mother has health problems, which will prevent her from taking me > everywhere, and who knows, about the girl? > I've dated one before, and I know the strain, it put on both families. > Neither one had heard of the NFB. > I'm glad I've found this organization! > I know, that anything's possible for us, if we just work at it. > I wish I had known this sooner! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 5/26/11, Hope Paulos wrote: >> First of all, I don't understand, Joshua, how you believe dating a blind >> person would double your dependence while traveling? I'm a compitent >> traveler and a totally blind one at that. I am a musician as well. To be >> honest, I don't care whether or not my boyfriend is sighted or blind. It's >> who he is that counts, not his disability or lack thereof. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Freeman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:13 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >> >> >>> So you pick your life-partner on the basis of convenience? >>> >>> Mike Freeman >>> sent from my iPhone >>> >>> >>> On May 25, 2011, at 21:58, Joshua Lester >>> wrote: >>> >>>> That's exactly the problem! >>>> Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! >>>> My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I was >>>> trained at LWSB. >>>> It's crazy! >>>> I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. >>>> Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. >>>> I don't want another blind person, because that would double my >>>> dependence, when it comes to traveling. >>>> I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. >>>> I like to travel to churches. >>>> It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a blind >>>> >>>> one. >>>> Remember, I'm totally blind. >>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>> >>>> On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>> I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is totally >>>>> blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you from >>>>> my >>>>> own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had a >>>>> very >>>>> positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh in >>>>> much >>>>> when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that >>>>> people >>>>> with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd >>>>> known >>>>> several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate that >>>>> they >>>>> had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not their >>>>> fault, >>>>> mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and >>>>> teacher >>>>> misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's another >>>>> topic >>>>> entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we had >>>>> talked >>>>> a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my own >>>>> blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend time >>>>> with >>>>> him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, one >>>>> >>>>> way >>>>> or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was only a >>>>> characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he >>>>> approached >>>>> blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 years >>>>> now, >>>>> and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have some >>>>> degree >>>>> of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the >>>>> one". >>>>> >>>>> On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a >>>>> completely >>>>> sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I might >>>>> as >>>>> well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I >>>>> really >>>>> think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to her. I >>>>> felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick me >>>>> up or >>>>> I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere (which >>>>> often >>>>> resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired from >>>>> travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was available, >>>>> she >>>>> would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as well. >>>>> She, >>>>> apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about it >>>>> when I >>>>> observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It was >>>>> just >>>>> in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do with >>>>> >>>>> my >>>>> vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is currently >>>>> in a >>>>> long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly blindness >>>>> was >>>>> not a turn-off to her. >>>>> >>>>> Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a big >>>>> thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any >>>>> significant >>>>> others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as >>>>> such. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> -Jamie >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Homberto, >>>>>> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. >>>>>> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, after >>>>>> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to >>>>>> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to >>>>>> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if >>>>>> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than a >>>>>> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. >>>>>> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a >>>>>> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a lot, >>>>>> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off if >>>>>> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I >>>>>> think most blind people would, too. >>>>>> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's >>>>>> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is >>>>>> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and have >>>>>> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person you >>>>>> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have the >>>>>> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person >>>>>> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each other, >>>>>> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight >>>>>> shouldn't change anything. >>>>>> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends >>>>>> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term relationship, >>>>>> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because sighted >>>>>> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be >>>>>> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a blind >>>>>> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be >>>>>> happy. >>>>>> Take care, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Humberto, >>>>>>> If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can do >>>>>>> things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is >>>>>> attracted >>>>>>> to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what >>>>>>> feels >>>>>>> right. >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Humberto >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM >>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello dear listers, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions >>>>>>> on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion >>>>>>> has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be >>>>>>> good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are >>>>>>> concerned. >>>>>>> So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out >>>>>>> with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main >>>>>>> differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? >>>>>>> Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? >>>>>>> If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal >>>>>>> with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How >>>>>>> can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the >>>>>>> blind person can become a competent member of society by doing >>>>>>> everything else that a sighted person can do. >>>>>>> I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as >>>>>>> much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've >>>>>>> been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in >>>>>>> touch. >>>>>>> would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a >>>>>>> sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a >>>>>>> characteristic? Will she understand that? >>>>>>> I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just >>>>>>> want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if >>>>>>> I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my >>>>>>> blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, >>>>>>> and having high expectations. >>>>>>> But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted >>>>>>> person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, >>>>>>> versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal >>>>>>> gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through >>>>>>> experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is >>>>>>> sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, >>>>>>> but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted >>>>>>> people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first >>>>>>> look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick >>>>>>> with one or not. >>>>>>> Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, Humberto >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thu May 26 16:53:56 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 09:53:56 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download In-Reply-To: <2088BF9E7CF344EBA97F7CCCFA0F151A@tinad85eb5cc31> References: <9E74A93E-8F17-48E0-968A-79E558D18275@gmail.com> <203A2F9932BA49A9BE398FDEFEA50856@OwnerPC> <8D09ECCCD198497397B703E80BF2F0D6@tinad85eb5cc31> <003101cc1b00$74c884f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <2088BF9E7CF344EBA97F7CCCFA0F151A@tinad85eb5cc31> Message-ID: Tina, what area is this? If you would like to reach out to students, nabs has regional advisors in place to help you organize in your area. Resource CDs were handed out. You May contact me or Arielle offline for more informationabout this, if you wish. if anyone is going to be at convention and are interested in going to the student meeting, then I highly reccomend making at least part of it. It's the v best way of making sure you don't miss out onall of the exciting things that will take place ! :) On 5/25/11, Tina Hansen wrote: > Yes, but I'm on another committer. Also, I'm hoping to use this material to > reach out to students in my area. Thanks. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From k7uij at panix.com Thu May 26 16:56:00 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 09:56:00 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> <279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com> <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> Message-ID: <1D54C9B8-A347-4B9D-8005-F08BD806D7F0@panix.com> In other words, you want to stick your wife with the burden rather than your family. Seems to me this is expecting darned little of yourself and a heck of a lot of your wife! Why is it any better (morally speaking) to stick your wife with the driving than it is to do so with your family? No one ever said federationism was easy! Mike Freeman sent from my iPhone On May 26, 2011, at 8:38, Joshua Lester wrote: > Yes. > I want my wife, to be able to drive me from place to place, so my > parents don't have to have that burden. > That's the point! > You win the million dollar prize! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 5/26/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >> I'm not sure I understand how this would create a "double burden" on your >> family either. If she is an independent traveler, or independent in other >> ways as well, why should she create any burden? Why would this hinder your >> independence unless you're looking for a partner who could drive you around >> and such so your parents don't have to (and I don't think you are! I'm just >> saying, I don't understand your point.) >> >> On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Hope Paulos wrote: >> >>> First of all, I don't understand, Joshua, how you believe dating a blind >>> person would double your dependence while traveling? I'm a compitent >>> traveler and a totally blind one at that. I am a musician as well. To be >>> honest, I don't care whether or not my boyfriend is sighted or blind. It's >>> who he is that counts, not his disability or lack thereof. >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" < >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org> >>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:13 AM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>> >>> >>> So you pick your life-partner on the basis of convenience? >>>> >>>> Mike Freeman >>>> sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 25, 2011, at 21:58, Joshua Lester >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> That's exactly the problem! >>>>> Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! >>>>> My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I was >>>>> trained at LWSB. >>>>> It's crazy! >>>>> I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. >>>>> Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. >>>>> I don't want another blind person, because that would double my >>>>> dependence, when it comes to traveling. >>>>> I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. >>>>> I like to travel to churches. >>>>> It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a >>>>> blind >>>>> one. >>>>> Remember, I'm totally blind. >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>> >>>>> On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is totally >>>>>> blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you from >>>>>> my >>>>>> own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had a >>>>>> very >>>>>> positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh in >>>>>> much >>>>>> when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that >>>>>> people >>>>>> with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd >>>>>> known >>>>>> several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate that >>>>>> they >>>>>> had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not their >>>>>> fault, >>>>>> mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and >>>>>> teacher >>>>>> misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's another >>>>>> topic >>>>>> entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we had >>>>>> talked >>>>>> a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my own >>>>>> blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend time >>>>>> with >>>>>> him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, >>>>>> one >>>>>> way >>>>>> or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was only >>>>>> a >>>>>> characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he >>>>>> approached >>>>>> blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 years >>>>>> now, >>>>>> and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have some >>>>>> degree >>>>>> of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the >>>>>> one". >>>>>> >>>>>> On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a >>>>>> completely >>>>>> sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I might >>>>>> as >>>>>> well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I >>>>>> really >>>>>> think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to her. >>>>>> I >>>>>> felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick me >>>>>> up or >>>>>> I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere (which >>>>>> often >>>>>> resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired from >>>>>> travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was available, >>>>>> she >>>>>> would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as well. >>>>>> She, >>>>>> apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about it >>>>>> when I >>>>>> observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It was >>>>>> just >>>>>> in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do >>>>>> with >>>>>> my >>>>>> vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is currently >>>>>> in a >>>>>> long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly blindness >>>>>> was >>>>>> not a turn-off to her. >>>>>> >>>>>> Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a >>>>>> big >>>>>> thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any >>>>>> significant >>>>>> others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as >>>>>> such. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> -Jamie >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Homberto, >>>>>>> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. >>>>>>> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, after >>>>>>> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to >>>>>>> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to >>>>>>> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if >>>>>>> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than a >>>>>>> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. >>>>>>> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a >>>>>>> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a lot, >>>>>>> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off if >>>>>>> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I >>>>>>> think most blind people would, too. >>>>>>> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's >>>>>>> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is >>>>>>> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and have >>>>>>> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person you >>>>>>> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have the >>>>>>> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person >>>>>>> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each other, >>>>>>> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight >>>>>>> shouldn't change anything. >>>>>>> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends >>>>>>> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term relationship, >>>>>>> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because sighted >>>>>>> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be >>>>>>> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a blind >>>>>>> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be >>>>>>> happy. >>>>>>> Take care, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Humberto, >>>>>>>> If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can >>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>> things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> attracted >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what >>>>>>>> feels >>>>>>>> right. >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Humberto >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM >>>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello dear listers, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions >>>>>>>> on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion >>>>>>>> has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be >>>>>>>> good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are >>>>>>>> concerned. >>>>>>>> So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out >>>>>>>> with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main >>>>>>>> differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? >>>>>>>> Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? >>>>>>>> If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal >>>>>>>> with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How >>>>>>>> can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the >>>>>>>> blind person can become a competent member of society by doing >>>>>>>> everything else that a sighted person can do. >>>>>>>> I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as >>>>>>>> much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've >>>>>>>> been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in >>>>>>>> touch. >>>>>>>> would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a >>>>>>>> sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a >>>>>>>> characteristic? Will she understand that? >>>>>>>> I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just >>>>>>>> want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if >>>>>>>> I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my >>>>>>>> blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, >>>>>>>> and having high expectations. >>>>>>>> But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted >>>>>>>> person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, >>>>>>>> versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal >>>>>>>> gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through >>>>>>>> experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is >>>>>>>> sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, >>>>>>>> but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted >>>>>>>> people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first >>>>>>>> look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick >>>>>>>> with one or not. >>>>>>>> Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, Humberto >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From brileyp at gmail.com Thu May 26 17:02:06 2011 From: brileyp at gmail.com (Briley Pollard) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 13:02:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> <279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com> <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> Message-ID: <88EF7849-044E-47D0-8AF7-04CADD419B69@gmail.com> I have dated both sighted and blind people, and don't find too much difference honestly. Sure, my blind boyfriends have been able to easily relate to me on struggles with the general public, technology, etc...but in general, people are people, and any relationship is going to have its challenges. Josh, I'd challenge you to open yourself up to more possibilities. Transportation can sometimes be a challenge, but it can be worked out. I've found that always relying on a sighted partner to drive creates more strain on a relationship than two people working together to figure out solutions. Whoever you end up with should be your partner, and if they happen to be sighted and can contribute by driving sometimes, great. But you should also be comfortable figuring out your own travel solutions. Being dependent on anyone isn't wise. This may mean you would have to move to an area that is more accessible transpiration wise, and this may mean living farther from your family than you'd like. But, there are also other options like hiring a driver when you have a job, etc. You wouldn't want someone to rule out dating you because you are blind, so don't do that to someone else who could be wonderful for you. Best, Briley On May 26, 2011, at 11:38 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Yes. > I want my wife, to be able to drive me from place to place, so my > parents don't have to have that burden. > That's the point! > You win the million dollar prize! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 5/26/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >> I'm not sure I understand how this would create a "double burden" on your >> family either. If she is an independent traveler, or independent in other >> ways as well, why should she create any burden? Why would this hinder your >> independence unless you're looking for a partner who could drive you around >> and such so your parents don't have to (and I don't think you are! I'm just >> saying, I don't understand your point.) >> >> On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Hope Paulos wrote: >> >>> First of all, I don't understand, Joshua, how you believe dating a blind >>> person would double your dependence while traveling? I'm a compitent >>> traveler and a totally blind one at that. I am a musician as well. To be >>> honest, I don't care whether or not my boyfriend is sighted or blind. It's >>> who he is that counts, not his disability or lack thereof. >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" < >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org> >>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:13 AM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>> >>> >>> So you pick your life-partner on the basis of convenience? >>>> >>>> Mike Freeman >>>> sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 25, 2011, at 21:58, Joshua Lester >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> That's exactly the problem! >>>>> Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! >>>>> My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I was >>>>> trained at LWSB. >>>>> It's crazy! >>>>> I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. >>>>> Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. >>>>> I don't want another blind person, because that would double my >>>>> dependence, when it comes to traveling. >>>>> I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. >>>>> I like to travel to churches. >>>>> It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a >>>>> blind >>>>> one. >>>>> Remember, I'm totally blind. >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>> >>>>> On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is totally >>>>>> blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you from >>>>>> my >>>>>> own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had a >>>>>> very >>>>>> positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh in >>>>>> much >>>>>> when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that >>>>>> people >>>>>> with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd >>>>>> known >>>>>> several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate that >>>>>> they >>>>>> had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not their >>>>>> fault, >>>>>> mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and >>>>>> teacher >>>>>> misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's another >>>>>> topic >>>>>> entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we had >>>>>> talked >>>>>> a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my own >>>>>> blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend time >>>>>> with >>>>>> him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, >>>>>> one >>>>>> way >>>>>> or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was only >>>>>> a >>>>>> characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he >>>>>> approached >>>>>> blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 years >>>>>> now, >>>>>> and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have some >>>>>> degree >>>>>> of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the >>>>>> one". >>>>>> >>>>>> On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a >>>>>> completely >>>>>> sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I might >>>>>> as >>>>>> well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I >>>>>> really >>>>>> think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to her. >>>>>> I >>>>>> felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick me >>>>>> up or >>>>>> I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere (which >>>>>> often >>>>>> resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired from >>>>>> travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was available, >>>>>> she >>>>>> would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as well. >>>>>> She, >>>>>> apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about it >>>>>> when I >>>>>> observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It was >>>>>> just >>>>>> in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do >>>>>> with >>>>>> my >>>>>> vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is currently >>>>>> in a >>>>>> long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly blindness >>>>>> was >>>>>> not a turn-off to her. >>>>>> >>>>>> Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a >>>>>> big >>>>>> thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any >>>>>> significant >>>>>> others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as >>>>>> such. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> -Jamie >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Homberto, >>>>>>> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. >>>>>>> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, after >>>>>>> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to >>>>>>> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to >>>>>>> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if >>>>>>> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than a >>>>>>> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. >>>>>>> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a >>>>>>> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a lot, >>>>>>> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off if >>>>>>> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I >>>>>>> think most blind people would, too. >>>>>>> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's >>>>>>> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is >>>>>>> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and have >>>>>>> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person you >>>>>>> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have the >>>>>>> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person >>>>>>> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each other, >>>>>>> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight >>>>>>> shouldn't change anything. >>>>>>> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends >>>>>>> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term relationship, >>>>>>> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because sighted >>>>>>> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be >>>>>>> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a blind >>>>>>> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be >>>>>>> happy. >>>>>>> Take care, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Humberto, >>>>>>>> If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can >>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>> things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> attracted >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what >>>>>>>> feels >>>>>>>> right. >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Humberto >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM >>>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello dear listers, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions >>>>>>>> on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion >>>>>>>> has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be >>>>>>>> good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are >>>>>>>> concerned. >>>>>>>> So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out >>>>>>>> with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main >>>>>>>> differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? >>>>>>>> Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? >>>>>>>> If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal >>>>>>>> with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How >>>>>>>> can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the >>>>>>>> blind person can become a competent member of society by doing >>>>>>>> everything else that a sighted person can do. >>>>>>>> I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as >>>>>>>> much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've >>>>>>>> been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in >>>>>>>> touch. >>>>>>>> would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a >>>>>>>> sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a >>>>>>>> characteristic? Will she understand that? >>>>>>>> I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just >>>>>>>> want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if >>>>>>>> I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my >>>>>>>> blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, >>>>>>>> and having high expectations. >>>>>>>> But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted >>>>>>>> person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, >>>>>>>> versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal >>>>>>>> gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through >>>>>>>> experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is >>>>>>>> sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, >>>>>>>> but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted >>>>>>>> people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first >>>>>>>> look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick >>>>>>>> with one or not. >>>>>>>> Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, Humberto >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%40gmail.com From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Thu May 26 17:05:11 2011 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 13:05:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some people are born with more empathy than others. In my opinion this is not a learned skill unless you gain it through your own life experiences, but even then I would venture to say that the natural ability was there to begin with. Having empathy is not the same as letting people walk all over you, however, as some people would have you believe; it's demonstrating that your choices or actions may not be the best, but you're not a terrible person for making mistakes, either. As blind people, we tend to engage in a lot of all or nothing thinking: if we didn't receive rehab training at an NFB center, we're lacking; if we acquired the necessary skills through other means than a training center, we're stellar and must be a role model to every blind person we meet that's somehow "less fortunate" than ourselves. I'm a bit of an oddball on this list. I'm not a member of the NFB or the ACB. I do not subscribe to an organization's philosophy just because I may believe in certain aspects of it. I like to think that I can form my own thoughts and opinions. This is probably why people consider me so open-minded. What this all boils down to is that people need to realize that people need help with things in their lives. We all need each other. Ridiculing someone just because they are less skilled than yourself, or worse yet, because they don't follow the NFB's philosophy to the letter, is no different than bigotry in my opinion. You might end up isolating a person who otherwise doesn't have any support right when it's needed the most. I've been there, and that's why I'm trying to raise awareness on this issue. Empathy, common sense and a willingness to be understanding are all that's needed. Now, before some of you jump down my throat and say, "what about people who don't want to be helped? What if I encounter a blind person who stumbles around with no sense of direction, who walks around with stains on their clothes and has bad personal hygiene?" You're not going to like my response, but live and let live. If you're a positive role model just by being yourself, that person just might come around. If you are unable to keep your preaching to yourself, find someone who can be a source of hope and compassion for that person. A person who's like that probably has deep-rooted emotional problems that need attention, not disgust and avoidance. And, if a person truly does not want to change, well, that's their loss. We are not representative of the blind community as a whole. No individual should have to bear the weight of the world, and it's sad to think that some individuals devote their lives to just that purpose. In fact, I don't think there is a blind community. We all bring our own set of experiences, strengths, weaknesses, abilities and insecurities to the table. We are all human, just as a certain culture or race is made up of humans with differing experiences, beliefs and so forth. People who have a problem with the blind just because they've had one bad experience with a blind person are probably prejudiced in other ways as well, so forget them. We don't have to be their best friends, and in situations that demand their respect, we can usually get it, just a little bit, until the situation passes (i.e. we move on from a particular professor's class who does not want to make reasonable accommodations, we actively look for another job and just deal with a crappy employer if we must pay the bills.) Basically, I guess what I'm saying is that there are rotten people in this world. Changing them is like thinking we have the power to make the sun rise in the west, it's not gonna happen. So, do what you can to get away from people like that, and if that's not feasible, try to make the best of it. And, if there truly is criminal activity going on, it will get discovered in the end, or that person will get what's coming to them in another way. Karma is funny that way. Respectfully, Desiree On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: > Hello all, > Something that I have been thinking about is how we in the NFB tend > to treat each other when we don't understand one's lifestyle, choice > of phrases, thought processes. > It is true that as humans we tend to fear the unknown, and act out > in ignorance, but sometimes I feel like it boarders on the extreme. > I would like to see what people find to be true in their expiriences > and how we can be accepting of people at whatever point that they are > at in their life expirences, education, blindness etc. > I would be very interested to hear about constructive stradigies > people have used to get this done. > Best, > Darian > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > From kfjelsted at gmail.com Thu May 26 17:01:17 2011 From: kfjelsted at gmail.com (Kevin Fjelsted) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 12:01:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Math-to-Speech technology project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DDF92D5-CE12-4264-91D6-5B8D71FFABBE@gmail.com> An interesting corollary on this whole thing although it may not see to be related but I experiencing increasing resistance in testing centers when I tell them I need to bring a Braille Writer in order to solve math problems. If we are not virulent we will be locked out of testing centers when we insist on Braille either reading or writing. -Kevin On May 26, 2011, at 11:27 AM, Loew, Ruth wrote: > New Math-to-Speech Technologies to Help Blind and Visually Impaired Students Master Mathematics > > Princeton, N.J. (May 24, 2011) - > Educational Testing Service (ETS) and Design Science have announced they are working jointly to modify MathType(tm) and MathPlayer(tm), so that classroom materials, tests and other documents containing mathematical content may be clearly spoken by computers. This new math-to-speech technology will provide students who are blind or have other visual impairments the tools they need to learn, practice, and take math and science tests on a more equal footing with their classroom peers. > Some of the country's leading subject-matter experts and developers of assistive technology for students who are blind or visually impaired will assist on the project which begins July 1, 2011, and is supported by a $1.5 million Institute of Education Sciences grant. > "Existing assistive technology that provides synthetic speech for electronic text does at best a limited job of making math accessible for this group of students," explains Lois Frankel, an ETS Assessment Specialist and the leader of the effort. "The current technology falls short because it generally does not 'know' how to describe mathematical expressions, especially in a way that provides access to their nonlinear structure. > "ETS and Design Science will work together to enhance MathPlayer, the tool that voices the math encoded in MathML, so that it sounds more like what students - particularly those in Algebra I - are used to hearing," Frankel says. "We also plan to work on a number of customizations to MathType, including a feature to allow teachers and other users to select how mathematical expressions are described. For example, they could select whether the machine says 'four over five' or 'four fifths.' Another customization we plan to add is keyboard navigation that allows blind or visually impaired users to go back and replay voiced segments in mathematically meaningful 'chunks.' Our goal is to provide students and teachers with a better system for voicing mathematical notation that includes some truly useful functionality." > "It has been a long-term Design Science goal to make math accessible, and our team has been working hard at it for over six years," said Neil Soiffer, Senior Scientist at Design Science. "It's a great opportunity to be partnering with an organization the stature and importance of ETS, to push the state-of-the-art forward." > Working with Frankel and Soiffer on the effort are ETS Assessment Specialist Beth Brownstein, Research Scientist Eric Hansen, and Senior Research Scientist Cara Laitusis. Among the other organizations and consultants who will take part in the project are: > * > > De Witt & Associates, specializes in accessibility training, learning systems and support, and will provide advice on the implementation of MathML accessibility tools and assist in the development of training modules for students and teachers. > * GW Micro, a leading firm in the adaptive technology industry, will modify its Window-Eyes screen reader software to work seamlessly with the tools developed by the project. > * Jim Allan, the accessibility coordinator and webmaster for the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. > * Maylene Bird, a teacher of mathematics to visually impaired students at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. > * Christine Hinton, a Program Development Specialist for the New Jersey Commission for the Blind and Visually Impaired, will help recruit student participants from inclusive schools in New Jersey. > * Gaylen Kapperman, a professor with a visual disability, with specialization in research and development projects pertaining to mathematics instruction and assistive technology used by individuals who are blind or are visually impaired. > * Abraham Nemeth, the author of The Nemeth Braille Code for Mathematics and Science Notation and a blind expert in making mathematics accessible to blind individuals. > * Susan Osterhaus, a secondary mathematics teacher and statewide math accessibility expert at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. > "The criteria for success in this project will be three-fold," explains Marisa Farnum, Vice President of Assessment Development at ETS. "First, will students using the tailored tools over the status quo be better able to solve algebra problems at an appropriate level? And, are they better able to correctly identify the structure of algebra-level math expressions when using the tools? Second, will math teachers be able to use the authoring tools developed by this project to quickly and easily create math materials that are accessible to their students with visual impairments? And finally, do the teachers and students who participate as subjects in these development efforts find the tools provided usable and convenient?" > About ETS > At nonprofit ETS, we advance quality and equity in education for people worldwide by creating assessments based on rigorous research. ETS serves individuals, educational institutions and government agencies by providing customized solutions for teacher certification, English language learning, and elementary, secondary and post-secondary education, as well as conducting education research, analysis and policy studies. Founded in 1947, ETS develops, administers and scores more than 50 million tests annually - including the TOEFL(r) and TOEIC(r) tests, the GRE(r) tests and The Praxis Series(tm) assessments - in more than 180 countries, at over 9,000 locations worldwide. www.ets.org. > > About Design Science > Founded in 1986 and headquartered in Long Beach, California, Design Science develops software used by educators, scientists and publishing professionals, including MathType, Equation Editor in Microsoft Office, MathFlow, MathDaisy and MathPlayer, to communicate on the web and in print. For more information please visit www.dessci.com. > > Ruth C. Loew, Ph.D. > Assistant Director > Office of Disability Policy, ETS > phone: 609-683-2984 > fax: 609-683-2220 > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com From th404 at comcast.net Thu May 26 17:07:13 2011 From: th404 at comcast.net (Tina Hansen) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 10:07:13 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download References: <9E74A93E-8F17-48E0-968A-79E558D18275@gmail.com><203A2F9932BA49A9BE398FDEFEA50856@OwnerPC><8D09ECCCD198497397B703E80BF2F0D6@tinad85eb5cc31><003101cc1b00$74c884f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><2088BF9E7CF344EBA97F7CCCFA0F151A@tinad85eb5cc31> Message-ID: I'm in Oregon, and we're attempting to get a student division off the ground. At best, I could stop by the student meeting to pick up any tools that might help our state. Thanks. From brileyp at gmail.com Thu May 26 17:15:17 2011 From: brileyp at gmail.com (Briley Pollard) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 13:15:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, This is an interesting question. I've found there has to be a balance between kindness, acceptance, and giving information that will really help to improve someone's philosophy about their blindness and/or quality of life. Not everyone is going to accept what we say, and that is ok. We can disagree peacefully, but it is ok to disagree. If someone is unwilling to accept advice and sincere offers of help, then don't waist time spouting off at them about how wrong they are. Simply move on to the next person who may be accepting. Best, Briley On May 26, 2011, at 12:41 PM, Darian Smith wrote: > Hello all, > Something that I have been thinking about is how we in the NFB tend > to treat each other when we don't understand one's lifestyle, choice > of phrases, thought processes. > It is true that as humans we tend to fear the unknown, and act out > in ignorance, but sometimes I feel like it boarders on the extreme. > I would like to see what people find to be true in their expiriences > and how we can be accepting of people at whatever point that they are > at in their life expirences, education, blindness etc. > I would be very interested to hear about constructive stradigies > people have used to get this done. > Best, > Darian > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Thu May 26 17:33:17 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 11:33:17 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: <88EF7849-044E-47D0-8AF7-04CADD419B69@gmail.com> References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> <279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com> <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> <88EF7849-044E-47D0-8AF7-04CADD419B69@gmail.com> Message-ID: Josh, I have brown hair. Should I only date brunettes? I mean...we can share life experiences about our hair color and how it's impacted us on a deep personal level...wouldn't that be wonderful? Now of course blindness is a bigger deal than hair color, but I think the same principal still applies. And, for the record, I'm not opposed to blind people dating other blind people and emotionally supporting each other with their blindness-seems perfectly reasonable to me. But it's just a characteristic that can be made a very minimal factor with the right training and attitude. Just my thoughts. Warmly, Kirt On 5/26/11, Briley Pollard wrote: > I have dated both sighted and blind people, and don't find too much > difference honestly. Sure, my blind boyfriends have been able to easily > relate to me on struggles with the general public, technology, etc...but in > general, people are people, and any relationship is going to have its > challenges. > > Josh, I'd challenge you to open yourself up to more possibilities. > Transportation can sometimes be a challenge, but it can be worked out. I've > found that always relying on a sighted partner to drive creates more strain > on a relationship than two people working together to figure out solutions. > Whoever you end up with should be your partner, and if they happen to be > sighted and can contribute by driving sometimes, great. But you should also > be comfortable figuring out your own travel solutions. Being dependent on > anyone isn't wise. This may mean you would have to move to an area that is > more accessible transpiration wise, and this may mean living farther from > your family than you'd like. But, there are also other options like hiring a > driver when you have a job, etc. You wouldn't want someone to rule out > dating you because you are blind, so don't do that to someone else who could > be wonderful for you. > > Best, > Briley > On May 26, 2011, at 11:38 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > >> Yes. >> I want my wife, to be able to drive me from place to place, so my >> parents don't have to have that burden. >> That's the point! >> You win the million dollar prize! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 5/26/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>> I'm not sure I understand how this would create a "double burden" on your >>> family either. If she is an independent traveler, or independent in other >>> ways as well, why should she create any burden? Why would this hinder >>> your >>> independence unless you're looking for a partner who could drive you >>> around >>> and such so your parents don't have to (and I don't think you are! I'm >>> just >>> saying, I don't understand your point.) >>> >>> On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Hope Paulos >>> wrote: >>> >>>> First of all, I don't understand, Joshua, how you believe dating a blind >>>> person would double your dependence while traveling? I'm a compitent >>>> traveler and a totally blind one at that. I am a musician as well. To be >>>> honest, I don't care whether or not my boyfriend is sighted or blind. >>>> It's >>>> who he is that counts, not his disability or lack thereof. >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" < >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org> >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:13 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>> >>>> >>>> So you pick your life-partner on the basis of convenience? >>>>> >>>>> Mike Freeman >>>>> sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 21:58, Joshua Lester >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> That's exactly the problem! >>>>>> Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! >>>>>> My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I was >>>>>> trained at LWSB. >>>>>> It's crazy! >>>>>> I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. >>>>>> Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. >>>>>> I don't want another blind person, because that would double my >>>>>> dependence, when it comes to traveling. >>>>>> I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. >>>>>> I like to travel to churches. >>>>>> It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a >>>>>> blind >>>>>> one. >>>>>> Remember, I'm totally blind. >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is >>>>>>> totally >>>>>>> blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had a >>>>>>> very >>>>>>> positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> much >>>>>>> when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd >>>>>>> known >>>>>>> several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not their >>>>>>> fault, >>>>>>> mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and >>>>>>> teacher >>>>>>> misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's >>>>>>> another >>>>>>> topic >>>>>>> entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we had >>>>>>> talked >>>>>>> a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend >>>>>>> time >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, >>>>>>> one >>>>>>> way >>>>>>> or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was >>>>>>> only >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he >>>>>>> approached >>>>>>> blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 >>>>>>> years >>>>>>> now, >>>>>>> and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have some >>>>>>> degree >>>>>>> of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the >>>>>>> one". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a >>>>>>> completely >>>>>>> sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I >>>>>>> might >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I >>>>>>> really >>>>>>> think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to >>>>>>> her. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick >>>>>>> me >>>>>>> up or >>>>>>> I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere >>>>>>> (which >>>>>>> often >>>>>>> resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was available, >>>>>>> she >>>>>>> would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as well. >>>>>>> She, >>>>>>> apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about it >>>>>>> when I >>>>>>> observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It was >>>>>>> just >>>>>>> in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is >>>>>>> currently >>>>>>> in a >>>>>>> long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly >>>>>>> blindness >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> not a turn-off to her. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a >>>>>>> big >>>>>>> thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any >>>>>>> significant >>>>>>> others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as >>>>>>> such. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -Jamie >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Homberto, >>>>>>>> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. >>>>>>>> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, >>>>>>>> after >>>>>>>> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to >>>>>>>> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to >>>>>>>> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if >>>>>>>> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than a >>>>>>>> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. >>>>>>>> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a >>>>>>>> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a >>>>>>>> lot, >>>>>>>> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off if >>>>>>>> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I >>>>>>>> think most blind people would, too. >>>>>>>> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's >>>>>>>> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is >>>>>>>> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and have >>>>>>>> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person you >>>>>>>> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person >>>>>>>> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each >>>>>>>> other, >>>>>>>> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight >>>>>>>> shouldn't change anything. >>>>>>>> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends >>>>>>>> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term >>>>>>>> relationship, >>>>>>>> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because sighted >>>>>>>> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be >>>>>>>> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a blind >>>>>>>> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be >>>>>>>> happy. >>>>>>>> Take care, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Humberto, >>>>>>>>> If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can >>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>> things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> attracted >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what >>>>>>>>> feels >>>>>>>>> right. >>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Humberto >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM >>>>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello dear listers, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions >>>>>>>>> on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion >>>>>>>>> has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be >>>>>>>>> good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are >>>>>>>>> concerned. >>>>>>>>> So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out >>>>>>>>> with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main >>>>>>>>> differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? >>>>>>>>> Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? >>>>>>>>> If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal >>>>>>>>> with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How >>>>>>>>> can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the >>>>>>>>> blind person can become a competent member of society by doing >>>>>>>>> everything else that a sighted person can do. >>>>>>>>> I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as >>>>>>>>> much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've >>>>>>>>> been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in >>>>>>>>> touch. >>>>>>>>> would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a >>>>>>>>> sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a >>>>>>>>> characteristic? Will she understand that? >>>>>>>>> I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just >>>>>>>>> want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if >>>>>>>>> I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my >>>>>>>>> blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, >>>>>>>>> and having high expectations. >>>>>>>>> But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted >>>>>>>>> person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, >>>>>>>>> versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal >>>>>>>>> gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through >>>>>>>>> experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is >>>>>>>>> sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, >>>>>>>>> but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted >>>>>>>>> people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first >>>>>>>>> look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick >>>>>>>>> with one or not. >>>>>>>>> Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, Humberto >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Thu May 26 17:35:38 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 11:35:38 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> <279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com> <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> <88EF7849-044E-47D0-8AF7-04CADD419B69@gmail.com> Message-ID: And another thing...should I only date people without brown hair because brown hair causes me all sorts of inconveniences and so forth? Of course not, because it doesn't. I think with the right training and attitude (not just NFB training), blindness can be just a little bit more annoying than my brown hair. And certainly it shouldn't be a determining factor in who I date any more than my hair color is. Just my thoughts, Kirt On 5/26/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Josh, > I have brown hair. Should I only date brunettes? I mean...we can > share life experiences about our hair color and how it's impacted us > on a deep personal level...wouldn't that be wonderful? > Now of course blindness is a bigger deal than hair color, but I > think the same principal still applies. And, for the record, I'm not > opposed to blind people dating other blind people and emotionally > supporting each other with their blindness-seems perfectly reasonable > to me. But it's just a characteristic that can be made a very minimal > factor with the right training and attitude. Just my thoughts. > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/26/11, Briley Pollard wrote: >> I have dated both sighted and blind people, and don't find too much >> difference honestly. Sure, my blind boyfriends have been able to easily >> relate to me on struggles with the general public, technology, etc...but >> in >> general, people are people, and any relationship is going to have its >> challenges. >> >> Josh, I'd challenge you to open yourself up to more possibilities. >> Transportation can sometimes be a challenge, but it can be worked out. >> I've >> found that always relying on a sighted partner to drive creates more >> strain >> on a relationship than two people working together to figure out >> solutions. >> Whoever you end up with should be your partner, and if they happen to be >> sighted and can contribute by driving sometimes, great. But you should >> also >> be comfortable figuring out your own travel solutions. Being dependent on >> anyone isn't wise. This may mean you would have to move to an area that >> is >> more accessible transpiration wise, and this may mean living farther from >> your family than you'd like. But, there are also other options like hiring >> a >> driver when you have a job, etc. You wouldn't want someone to rule out >> dating you because you are blind, so don't do that to someone else who >> could >> be wonderful for you. >> >> Best, >> Briley >> On May 26, 2011, at 11:38 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> >>> Yes. >>> I want my wife, to be able to drive me from place to place, so my >>> parents don't have to have that burden. >>> That's the point! >>> You win the million dollar prize! >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> >>> On 5/26/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>> I'm not sure I understand how this would create a "double burden" on >>>> your >>>> family either. If she is an independent traveler, or independent in >>>> other >>>> ways as well, why should she create any burden? Why would this hinder >>>> your >>>> independence unless you're looking for a partner who could drive you >>>> around >>>> and such so your parents don't have to (and I don't think you are! I'm >>>> just >>>> saying, I don't understand your point.) >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Hope Paulos >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> First of all, I don't understand, Joshua, how you believe dating a >>>>> blind >>>>> person would double your dependence while traveling? I'm a compitent >>>>> traveler and a totally blind one at that. I am a musician as well. To >>>>> be >>>>> honest, I don't care whether or not my boyfriend is sighted or blind. >>>>> It's >>>>> who he is that counts, not his disability or lack thereof. >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" < >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:13 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So you pick your life-partner on the basis of convenience? >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike Freeman >>>>>> sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 21:58, Joshua Lester >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> That's exactly the problem! >>>>>>> Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! >>>>>>> My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> trained at LWSB. >>>>>>> It's crazy! >>>>>>> I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. >>>>>>> Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. >>>>>>> I don't want another blind person, because that would double my >>>>>>> dependence, when it comes to traveling. >>>>>>> I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. >>>>>>> I like to travel to churches. >>>>>>> It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> one. >>>>>>> Remember, I'm totally blind. >>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is >>>>>>>> totally >>>>>>>> blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>> positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't >>>>>>>> weigh >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd >>>>>>>> known >>>>>>>> several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not >>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>> fault, >>>>>>>> mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and >>>>>>>> teacher >>>>>>>> misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's >>>>>>>> another >>>>>>>> topic >>>>>>>> entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we >>>>>>>> had >>>>>>>> talked >>>>>>>> a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my >>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>> blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend >>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could >>>>>>>> do, >>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>> or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was >>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he >>>>>>>> approached >>>>>>>> blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 >>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>> now, >>>>>>>> and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have >>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>> degree >>>>>>>> of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found >>>>>>>> "the >>>>>>>> one". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a >>>>>>>> completely >>>>>>>> sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I >>>>>>>> might >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I >>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>> think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to >>>>>>>> her. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick >>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>> up or >>>>>>>> I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere >>>>>>>> (which >>>>>>>> often >>>>>>>> resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was >>>>>>>> available, >>>>>>>> she >>>>>>>> would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as >>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>> She, >>>>>>>> apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> when I >>>>>>>> observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>> in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is >>>>>>>> currently >>>>>>>> in a >>>>>>>> long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly >>>>>>>> blindness >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> not a turn-off to her. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> big >>>>>>>> thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any >>>>>>>> significant >>>>>>>> others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> such. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -Jamie >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Homberto, >>>>>>>>> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. >>>>>>>>> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, >>>>>>>>> after >>>>>>>>> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to >>>>>>>>> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to >>>>>>>>> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if >>>>>>>>> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. >>>>>>>>> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a >>>>>>>>> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a >>>>>>>>> lot, >>>>>>>>> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off >>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I >>>>>>>>> think most blind people would, too. >>>>>>>>> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's >>>>>>>>> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the >>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each >>>>>>>>> other, >>>>>>>>> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight >>>>>>>>> shouldn't change anything. >>>>>>>>> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my >>>>>>>>> friends >>>>>>>>> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term >>>>>>>>> relationship, >>>>>>>>> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because >>>>>>>>> sighted >>>>>>>>> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be >>>>>>>>> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a >>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be >>>>>>>>> happy. >>>>>>>>> Take care, >>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Humberto, >>>>>>>>>> If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you >>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>> things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> attracted >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with >>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>> feels >>>>>>>>>> right. >>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: Humberto >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hello dear listers, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions >>>>>>>>>> on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion >>>>>>>>>> has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be >>>>>>>>>> good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are >>>>>>>>>> concerned. >>>>>>>>>> So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out >>>>>>>>>> with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main >>>>>>>>>> differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? >>>>>>>>>> Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? >>>>>>>>>> If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal >>>>>>>>>> with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How >>>>>>>>>> can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the >>>>>>>>>> blind person can become a competent member of society by doing >>>>>>>>>> everything else that a sighted person can do. >>>>>>>>>> I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as >>>>>>>>>> much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've >>>>>>>>>> been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in >>>>>>>>>> touch. >>>>>>>>>> would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a >>>>>>>>>> sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a >>>>>>>>>> characteristic? Will she understand that? >>>>>>>>>> I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just >>>>>>>>>> want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if >>>>>>>>>> I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my >>>>>>>>>> blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, >>>>>>>>>> and having high expectations. >>>>>>>>>> But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted >>>>>>>>>> person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, >>>>>>>>>> versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal >>>>>>>>>> gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through >>>>>>>>>> experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is >>>>>>>>>> sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, >>>>>>>>>> but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted >>>>>>>>>> people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first >>>>>>>>>> look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick >>>>>>>>>> with one or not. >>>>>>>>>> Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers, Humberto >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > From djdan567 at gmail.com Thu May 26 18:27:53 2011 From: djdan567 at gmail.com (Daniel Romero) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 14:27:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view that we get from the public in general. Most people who are sighted are not used to a blind person. You have to understand that one blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now reliable for what a person thinks about blind people. They are the ones setting an example. So if you have a blind person who smells bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or just do not have the proper skills, the outside person will make an assumtion and say that all blind people are like that. i'm not saying it's right for blind people to call out other blind people with a skills set that is lower then theirs, they're just calling them out because they are representing blind people. It puts a bad label on us blind people who do take care of ourselves, have the skills to be independent and succeed. like i said, i'm not saying it's right but I don't think us who do have the skills want to have a negative conotation. Not all blind people poke their eyes, rock, hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, do not clean their own clothes, or anything like that. So to be part of a group that's going to display such a view that is negative to the public, we fall right behind that. Am I making sense? From adrimpc80 at gmail.com Thu May 26 18:33:23 2011 From: adrimpc80 at gmail.com (ADRIANA PULIDO) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 13:33:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] dating sighted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: <001001cc1bbf$a0365300$e0a2f900$@com> References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> <279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com> <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> <001001cc1bbf$a0365300$e0a2f900$@com> Message-ID: Hello everyone. I want to share my experience. I'm totally blind and I have had boht, partially blind and sighted boyfriends. My current boyfriend is sighted, and we have learned many things from one another. Moreover, I don't see him as a person to depend on, but rather as someone who complements my life with his perception of the world. We have had much fun together. In fact, we made a short film this year, in which the actors are all blind or partially blind. Best, Adriana P. 2011/5/26, Alexander : > Hello all, my name is Alex Atlantic and I am very independent person. > I myself dated both sided and blind people. I really don't see the > different between them. On the other hand I am musician and I have one of > the highest paying jobs. It depends on the person. I know few blind people > they chose to go out with sided people because he or she can drive and I > don't think that is rite. Me personally I look at their personality I > really don't care if they drive or not that don't matter to me because I > have enough independents to take a bus, cab, or other way. > > Thanks > Alex Atlantic > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Hope Paulos > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:26 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? > > First of all, I don't understand, Joshua, how you believe dating a blind > person would double your dependence while traveling? I'm a compitent > traveler and a totally blind one at that. I am a musician as well. To be > honest, I don't care whether or not my boyfriend is sighted or blind. It's > who he is that counts, not his disability or lack thereof. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:13 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? > > >> So you pick your life-partner on the basis of convenience? >> >> Mike Freeman >> sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On May 25, 2011, at 21:58, Joshua Lester >> wrote: >> >>> That's exactly the problem! >>> Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! >>> My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I was >>> trained at LWSB. >>> It's crazy! >>> I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. >>> Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. >>> I don't want another blind person, because that would double my >>> dependence, when it comes to traveling. >>> I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. >>> I like to travel to churches. >>> It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a blind > >>> one. >>> Remember, I'm totally blind. >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> >>> On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>> I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is totally >>>> blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you from >>>> my >>>> own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had a >>>> very >>>> positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh in >>>> much >>>> when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that >>>> people >>>> with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd >>>> known >>>> several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate that >>>> they >>>> had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not their >>>> fault, >>>> mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and >>>> teacher >>>> misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's another >>>> topic >>>> entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we had >>>> talked >>>> a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my own >>>> blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend time >>>> with >>>> him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, one > >>>> way >>>> or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was only a >>>> characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he >>>> approached >>>> blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 years >>>> now, >>>> and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have some >>>> degree >>>> of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the >>>> one". >>>> >>>> On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a >>>> completely >>>> sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I might >>>> as >>>> well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I >>>> really >>>> think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to her. I >>>> felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick me >>>> up or >>>> I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere (which >>>> often >>>> resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired from >>>> travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was available, >>>> she >>>> would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as well. >>>> She, >>>> apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about it >>>> when I >>>> observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It was >>>> just >>>> in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do with > >>>> my >>>> vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is currently >>>> in a >>>> long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly blindness >>>> was >>>> not a turn-off to her. >>>> >>>> Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a big >>>> thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any >>>> significant >>>> others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as >>>> such. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> -Jamie >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Homberto, >>>>> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. >>>>> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, after >>>>> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to >>>>> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to >>>>> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if >>>>> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than a >>>>> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. >>>>> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a >>>>> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a lot, >>>>> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off if >>>>> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I >>>>> think most blind people would, too. >>>>> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's >>>>> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is >>>>> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and have >>>>> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person you >>>>> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have the >>>>> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person >>>>> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each other, >>>>> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight >>>>> shouldn't change anything. >>>>> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends >>>>> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term relationship, >>>>> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because sighted >>>>> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be >>>>> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a blind >>>>> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be >>>>> happy. >>>>> Take care, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Humberto, >>>>>> If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can do >>>>>> things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is >>>>> attracted >>>>>> to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what >>>>>> feels >>>>>> right. >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Humberto >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello dear listers, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions >>>>>> on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion >>>>>> has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be >>>>>> good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are >>>>>> concerned. >>>>>> So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out >>>>>> with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main >>>>>> differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? >>>>>> Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? >>>>>> If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal >>>>>> with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How >>>>>> can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the >>>>>> blind person can become a competent member of society by doing >>>>>> everything else that a sighted person can do. >>>>>> I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as >>>>>> much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've >>>>>> been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in >>>>>> touch. >>>>>> would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a >>>>>> sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a >>>>>> characteristic? Will she understand that? >>>>>> I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just >>>>>> want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if >>>>>> I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my >>>>>> blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, >>>>>> and having high expectations. >>>>>> But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted >>>>>> person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, >>>>>> versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal >>>>>> gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through >>>>>> experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is >>>>>> sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, >>>>>> but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted >>>>>> people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first >>>>>> look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick >>>>>> with one or not. >>>>>> Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, Humberto >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma > il.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail > .com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40studen > ts.pccua.edu >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail. > com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aaatlantic%40aol.com > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3660 - Release Date: 05/26/11 > 06:34:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrimpc80%40gmail.com > -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga en Inglés y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright para Maestría. From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Thu May 26 18:44:27 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 12:44:27 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] dating sighted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> <279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com> <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> <001001cc1bbf$a0365300$e0a2f900$@com> Message-ID: That's awesome, good on you. Take care, Kirt Sent from my iPod On May 26, 2011, at 12:33 PM, ADRIANA PULIDO wrote: > Hello everyone. > > I want to share my experience. > I'm totally blind and I have had boht, partially blind and sighted > boyfriends. My current boyfriend is sighted, and we have learned many > things from one another. Moreover, I don't see him as a person to > depend on, but rather as someone who complements my life with his > perception of the world. > We have had much fun together. In fact, we made a short film this > year, in which the actors are all blind or partially blind. > > Best, > > Adriana P. > > 2011/5/26, Alexander : >> Hello all, my name is Alex Atlantic and I am very independent person. >> I myself dated both sided and blind people. I really don't see the >> different between them. On the other hand I am musician and I have one of >> the highest paying jobs. It depends on the person. I know few blind people >> they chose to go out with sided people because he or she can drive and I >> don't think that is rite. Me personally I look at their personality I >> really don't care if they drive or not that don't matter to me because I >> have enough independents to take a bus, cab, or other way. >> >> Thanks >> Alex Atlantic >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Hope Paulos >> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:26 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >> >> First of all, I don't understand, Joshua, how you believe dating a blind >> person would double your dependence while traveling? I'm a compitent >> traveler and a totally blind one at that. I am a musician as well. To be >> honest, I don't care whether or not my boyfriend is sighted or blind. It's >> who he is that counts, not his disability or lack thereof. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Freeman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:13 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >> >> >>> So you pick your life-partner on the basis of convenience? >>> >>> Mike Freeman >>> sent from my iPhone >>> >>> >>> On May 25, 2011, at 21:58, Joshua Lester >>> wrote: >>> >>>> That's exactly the problem! >>>> Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! >>>> My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I was >>>> trained at LWSB. >>>> It's crazy! >>>> I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. >>>> Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. >>>> I don't want another blind person, because that would double my >>>> dependence, when it comes to traveling. >>>> I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. >>>> I like to travel to churches. >>>> It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a blind >> >>>> one. >>>> Remember, I'm totally blind. >>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>> >>>> On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>> I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is totally >>>>> blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you from >>>>> my >>>>> own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had a >>>>> very >>>>> positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh in >>>>> much >>>>> when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that >>>>> people >>>>> with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd >>>>> known >>>>> several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate that >>>>> they >>>>> had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not their >>>>> fault, >>>>> mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and >>>>> teacher >>>>> misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's another >>>>> topic >>>>> entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we had >>>>> talked >>>>> a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my own >>>>> blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend time >>>>> with >>>>> him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, one >> >>>>> way >>>>> or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was only a >>>>> characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he >>>>> approached >>>>> blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 years >>>>> now, >>>>> and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have some >>>>> degree >>>>> of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the >>>>> one". >>>>> >>>>> On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a >>>>> completely >>>>> sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I might >>>>> as >>>>> well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I >>>>> really >>>>> think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to her. I >>>>> felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick me >>>>> up or >>>>> I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere (which >>>>> often >>>>> resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired from >>>>> travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was available, >>>>> she >>>>> would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as well. >>>>> She, >>>>> apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about it >>>>> when I >>>>> observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It was >>>>> just >>>>> in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do with >> >>>>> my >>>>> vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is currently >>>>> in a >>>>> long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly blindness >>>>> was >>>>> not a turn-off to her. >>>>> >>>>> Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a big >>>>> thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any >>>>> significant >>>>> others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as >>>>> such. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> -Jamie >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Homberto, >>>>>> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. >>>>>> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, after >>>>>> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to >>>>>> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to >>>>>> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if >>>>>> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than a >>>>>> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. >>>>>> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a >>>>>> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a lot, >>>>>> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off if >>>>>> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I >>>>>> think most blind people would, too. >>>>>> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's >>>>>> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is >>>>>> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and have >>>>>> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person you >>>>>> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have the >>>>>> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person >>>>>> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each other, >>>>>> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight >>>>>> shouldn't change anything. >>>>>> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends >>>>>> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term relationship, >>>>>> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because sighted >>>>>> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be >>>>>> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a blind >>>>>> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be >>>>>> happy. >>>>>> Take care, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Humberto, >>>>>>> If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can do >>>>>>> things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is >>>>>> attracted >>>>>>> to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what >>>>>>> feels >>>>>>> right. >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Humberto >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM >>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello dear listers, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions >>>>>>> on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion >>>>>>> has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be >>>>>>> good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are >>>>>>> concerned. >>>>>>> So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out >>>>>>> with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main >>>>>>> differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? >>>>>>> Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? >>>>>>> If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal >>>>>>> with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How >>>>>>> can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the >>>>>>> blind person can become a competent member of society by doing >>>>>>> everything else that a sighted person can do. >>>>>>> I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as >>>>>>> much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've >>>>>>> been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in >>>>>>> touch. >>>>>>> would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a >>>>>>> sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a >>>>>>> characteristic? Will she understand that? >>>>>>> I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just >>>>>>> want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if >>>>>>> I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my >>>>>>> blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, >>>>>>> and having high expectations. >>>>>>> But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted >>>>>>> person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, >>>>>>> versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal >>>>>>> gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through >>>>>>> experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is >>>>>>> sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, >>>>>>> but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted >>>>>>> people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first >>>>>>> look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick >>>>>>> with one or not. >>>>>>> Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, Humberto >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >> ink.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >> il.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail >> .com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40studen >> ts.pccua.edu >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail. >> com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aaatlantic%40aol.com >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3660 - Release Date: 05/26/11 >> 06:34:00 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrimpc80%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Adriana Pulido > Filóloga en Inglés y músico de la Universidad > Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright para Maestría. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Thu May 26 18:46:12 2011 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 14:46:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we lose sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your place is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, if that person, after being shown compassion and alternative ways of thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old patterns as soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows a lack of respect for everyone around them, including themselves. So if a person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! That person will either fall hard when they find out their parents/family members/significant other or what have you can't take care of them forever, and then they'll realize what needs to happen in due time, or they will get sick of the status quo and want to change it. And if people hold it against a decent blind person because they've met a person like that in the past, it's not worth it to try and make them feel any differently. They will either come around in time or they won't. Choice is the key word here. Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not hurting anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose out on a potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon as you meet someone who's worth your time, you forget about that other person real quick On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: > I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view that > we get from the public in general. Most people who are sighted are not > used to a blind person. You have to understand that one blind person > being seen is a huge thing. They're now reliable for what a person > thinks about blind people. They are the ones setting an example. So if > you have a blind person who smells bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or > just do not have the proper skills, the outside person will make an > assumtion and say that all blind people are like that. i'm not saying > it's right for blind people to call out other blind people with a > skills set that is lower then theirs, they're just calling them out > because they are representing blind people. It puts a bad label on us > blind people who do take care of ourselves, have the skills to be > independent and succeed. like i said, i'm not saying it's right but I > don't think us who do have the skills want to have a negative > conotation. Not all blind people poke their eyes, rock, hop, > twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, do not clean their own > clothes, or anything like that. So to be part of a group that's going > to display such a view that is negative to the public, we fall right > behind that. Am I making sense? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > From ignasicambra at gmail.com Thu May 26 18:50:27 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 14:50:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> <279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com> <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> Message-ID: <0FED38F7-CBC0-45DC-AAD0-140D1378E996@gmail.com> Josh, Just use your cane to go from point A to point B. If you want to hire a driver and don't have enough money, try to find a job somewhere in town or something. With all due respect, you don't sound like you've been trying too hard... On May 26, 2011, at 11:52 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > What skills? > How do you get from place to place? > I live in a small town, that doesn't have public transportation, and I > need to get from point A, to point B. > Also, another stumbling block, when it comes to dating a blind person, > is my allergies. > If the person I'm dating has a guide dog, it would have to go, because > I'm allergic to dogs. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 5/26/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >> Wouldn't it be easier, and less limiting in terms of who can be a potential >> partner, to try to learn these skills? I was a bit worried about this as >> well when I started a relationship with a blind person, but five years in, >> no one *has* to drive us anywhere. It was just a matter of learning the >> skills and practicing, and actually, being together helped us a lot with >> that. We always had someone to lean on for support and encouragement, and to >> "compare notes" with when we were trying to figure out a new skill. We still >> have a lot to learn, but no more than any college student living on their >> own for the first time. Just saying that sometimes a blind partner can be >> really good in terms of offering support and helping you become independent. >> My boyfriend knew a lot more than I did about travel, computers, and so on >> in the beginning, and has showed me a lot, and now I help him with things >> like learning to cook and such. >> >> On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Joshua Lester < >> jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote: >> >>> Yes. >>> I want my wife, to be able to drive me from place to place, so my >>> parents don't have to have that burden. >>> That's the point! >>> You win the million dollar prize! >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> >>> On 5/26/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>> I'm not sure I understand how this would create a "double burden" on >>>> your >>>> family either. If she is an independent traveler, or independent in >>>> other >>>> ways as well, why should she create any burden? Why would this hinder >>> your >>>> independence unless you're looking for a partner who could drive you >>> around >>>> and such so your parents don't have to (and I don't think you are! I'm >>> just >>>> saying, I don't understand your point.) >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Hope Paulos >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> First of all, I don't understand, Joshua, how you believe dating a >>>>> blind >>>>> person would double your dependence while traveling? I'm a compitent >>>>> traveler and a totally blind one at that. I am a musician as well. To >>>>> be >>>>> honest, I don't care whether or not my boyfriend is sighted or blind. >>> It's >>>>> who he is that counts, not his disability or lack thereof. >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" < >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:13 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So you pick your life-partner on the basis of convenience? >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike Freeman >>>>>> sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 21:58, Joshua Lester < >>> jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> That's exactly the problem! >>>>>>> Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! >>>>>>> My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I was >>>>>>> trained at LWSB. >>>>>>> It's crazy! >>>>>>> I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. >>>>>>> Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. >>>>>>> I don't want another blind person, because that would double my >>>>>>> dependence, when it comes to traveling. >>>>>>> I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. >>>>>>> I like to travel to churches. >>>>>>> It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> one. >>>>>>> Remember, I'm totally blind. >>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is >>> totally >>>>>>>> blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you >>> from >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>> positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh >>> in >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd >>>>>>>> known >>>>>>>> several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate >>> that >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not >>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>> fault, >>>>>>>> mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and >>>>>>>> teacher >>>>>>>> misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's >>> another >>>>>>>> topic >>>>>>>> entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we >>>>>>>> had >>>>>>>> talked >>>>>>>> a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my >>> own >>>>>>>> blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend >>> time >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, >>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>> or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was >>> only >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he >>>>>>>> approached >>>>>>>> blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 >>> years >>>>>>>> now, >>>>>>>> and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have >>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>> degree >>>>>>>> of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the >>>>>>>> one". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a >>>>>>>> completely >>>>>>>> sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I >>> might >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I >>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>> think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to >>> her. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick >>> me >>>>>>>> up or >>>>>>>> I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere >>> (which >>>>>>>> often >>>>>>>> resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired >>> from >>>>>>>> travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was >>>>>>>> available, >>>>>>>> she >>>>>>>> would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as >>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>> She, >>>>>>>> apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> when I >>>>>>>> observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>> in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is >>> currently >>>>>>>> in a >>>>>>>> long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly >>> blindness >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> not a turn-off to her. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a >>>>>>>> big >>>>>>>> thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any >>>>>>>> significant >>>>>>>> others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as >>>>>>>> such. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -Jamie >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Homberto, >>>>>>>>> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. >>>>>>>>> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, >>> after >>>>>>>>> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to >>>>>>>>> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to >>>>>>>>> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if >>>>>>>>> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. >>>>>>>>> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a >>>>>>>>> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a >>> lot, >>>>>>>>> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off >>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I >>>>>>>>> think most blind people would, too. >>>>>>>>> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's >>>>>>>>> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is >>>>>>>>> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have >>> the >>>>>>>>> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person >>>>>>>>> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each >>> other, >>>>>>>>> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight >>>>>>>>> shouldn't change anything. >>>>>>>>> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends >>>>>>>>> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term >>> relationship, >>>>>>>>> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because >>>>>>>>> sighted >>>>>>>>> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be >>>>>>>>> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a >>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be >>>>>>>>> happy. >>>>>>>>> Take care, >>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Humberto, >>>>>>>>>> If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you >>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>> things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> attracted >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with >>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>> feels >>>>>>>>>> right. >>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: Humberto >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hello dear listers, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions >>>>>>>>>> on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion >>>>>>>>>> has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be >>>>>>>>>> good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are >>>>>>>>>> concerned. >>>>>>>>>> So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out >>>>>>>>>> with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main >>>>>>>>>> differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? >>>>>>>>>> Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? >>>>>>>>>> If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal >>>>>>>>>> with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How >>>>>>>>>> can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the >>>>>>>>>> blind person can become a competent member of society by doing >>>>>>>>>> everything else that a sighted person can do. >>>>>>>>>> I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as >>>>>>>>>> much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've >>>>>>>>>> been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in >>>>>>>>>> touch. >>>>>>>>>> would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a >>>>>>>>>> sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a >>>>>>>>>> characteristic? Will she understand that? >>>>>>>>>> I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just >>>>>>>>>> want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if >>>>>>>>>> I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my >>>>>>>>>> blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, >>>>>>>>>> and having high expectations. >>>>>>>>>> But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted >>>>>>>>>> person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, >>>>>>>>>> versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal >>>>>>>>>> gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through >>>>>>>>>> experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is >>>>>>>>>> sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, >>>>>>>>>> but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted >>>>>>>>>> people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first >>>>>>>>>> look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick >>>>>>>>>> with one or not. >>>>>>>>>> Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers, Humberto >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Thu May 26 18:54:33 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 14:54:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> <279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com> <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> Message-ID: <138F678A-3EF7-479B-A91B-E4C512757A61@gmail.com> The problem is that if all you want from a potential partner is for her to drive you around and you consider yourself a burden, she will probably not want to be your wife :). I think it all depends on your attitude. Sometimes I ask my girlfriend to drive me somewhere because it seems like the best choice for me, and if she has time she will do it because she loves me and she's doing me a favor just like I help her with other things. But her primary function is not to drive me everywhere all the time... On May 26, 2011, at 11:38 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Yes. > I want my wife, to be able to drive me from place to place, so my > parents don't have to have that burden. > That's the point! > You win the million dollar prize! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 5/26/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >> I'm not sure I understand how this would create a "double burden" on your >> family either. If she is an independent traveler, or independent in other >> ways as well, why should she create any burden? Why would this hinder your >> independence unless you're looking for a partner who could drive you around >> and such so your parents don't have to (and I don't think you are! I'm just >> saying, I don't understand your point.) >> >> On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Hope Paulos wrote: >> >>> First of all, I don't understand, Joshua, how you believe dating a blind >>> person would double your dependence while traveling? I'm a compitent >>> traveler and a totally blind one at that. I am a musician as well. To be >>> honest, I don't care whether or not my boyfriend is sighted or blind. It's >>> who he is that counts, not his disability or lack thereof. >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" < >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org> >>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:13 AM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>> >>> >>> So you pick your life-partner on the basis of convenience? >>>> >>>> Mike Freeman >>>> sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 25, 2011, at 21:58, Joshua Lester >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> That's exactly the problem! >>>>> Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! >>>>> My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I was >>>>> trained at LWSB. >>>>> It's crazy! >>>>> I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. >>>>> Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. >>>>> I don't want another blind person, because that would double my >>>>> dependence, when it comes to traveling. >>>>> I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. >>>>> I like to travel to churches. >>>>> It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a >>>>> blind >>>>> one. >>>>> Remember, I'm totally blind. >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>> >>>>> On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is totally >>>>>> blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you from >>>>>> my >>>>>> own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had a >>>>>> very >>>>>> positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh in >>>>>> much >>>>>> when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that >>>>>> people >>>>>> with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd >>>>>> known >>>>>> several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate that >>>>>> they >>>>>> had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not their >>>>>> fault, >>>>>> mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and >>>>>> teacher >>>>>> misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's another >>>>>> topic >>>>>> entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we had >>>>>> talked >>>>>> a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my own >>>>>> blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend time >>>>>> with >>>>>> him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, >>>>>> one >>>>>> way >>>>>> or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was only >>>>>> a >>>>>> characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he >>>>>> approached >>>>>> blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 years >>>>>> now, >>>>>> and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have some >>>>>> degree >>>>>> of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the >>>>>> one". >>>>>> >>>>>> On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a >>>>>> completely >>>>>> sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I might >>>>>> as >>>>>> well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I >>>>>> really >>>>>> think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to her. >>>>>> I >>>>>> felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick me >>>>>> up or >>>>>> I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere (which >>>>>> often >>>>>> resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired from >>>>>> travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was available, >>>>>> she >>>>>> would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as well. >>>>>> She, >>>>>> apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about it >>>>>> when I >>>>>> observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It was >>>>>> just >>>>>> in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do >>>>>> with >>>>>> my >>>>>> vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is currently >>>>>> in a >>>>>> long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly blindness >>>>>> was >>>>>> not a turn-off to her. >>>>>> >>>>>> Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a >>>>>> big >>>>>> thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any >>>>>> significant >>>>>> others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as >>>>>> such. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> -Jamie >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Homberto, >>>>>>> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. >>>>>>> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, after >>>>>>> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to >>>>>>> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to >>>>>>> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if >>>>>>> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than a >>>>>>> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. >>>>>>> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a >>>>>>> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a lot, >>>>>>> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off if >>>>>>> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I >>>>>>> think most blind people would, too. >>>>>>> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's >>>>>>> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is >>>>>>> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and have >>>>>>> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person you >>>>>>> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have the >>>>>>> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person >>>>>>> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each other, >>>>>>> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight >>>>>>> shouldn't change anything. >>>>>>> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends >>>>>>> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term relationship, >>>>>>> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because sighted >>>>>>> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be >>>>>>> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a blind >>>>>>> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be >>>>>>> happy. >>>>>>> Take care, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Humberto, >>>>>>>> If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you can >>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>> things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> attracted >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with what >>>>>>>> feels >>>>>>>> right. >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Humberto >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM >>>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello dear listers, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions >>>>>>>> on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion >>>>>>>> has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be >>>>>>>> good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are >>>>>>>> concerned. >>>>>>>> So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out >>>>>>>> with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main >>>>>>>> differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? >>>>>>>> Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? >>>>>>>> If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal >>>>>>>> with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How >>>>>>>> can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the >>>>>>>> blind person can become a competent member of society by doing >>>>>>>> everything else that a sighted person can do. >>>>>>>> I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as >>>>>>>> much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've >>>>>>>> been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in >>>>>>>> touch. >>>>>>>> would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a >>>>>>>> sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a >>>>>>>> characteristic? Will she understand that? >>>>>>>> I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just >>>>>>>> want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if >>>>>>>> I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my >>>>>>>> blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, >>>>>>>> and having high expectations. >>>>>>>> But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted >>>>>>>> person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, >>>>>>>> versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal >>>>>>>> gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through >>>>>>>> experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is >>>>>>>> sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, >>>>>>>> but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted >>>>>>>> people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first >>>>>>>> look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick >>>>>>>> with one or not. >>>>>>>> Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, Humberto >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From nfbcsoutreach at gmail.com Thu May 26 20:12:39 2011 From: nfbcsoutreach at gmail.com (community service Outreach) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 15:12:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Community Service group flyer Message-ID: How do you feel about community service? Do you volunteer your time once in a while in the community or with your local church and want to find other blind individuals to connect with? Do you find community service interesting, but are not sure that you as a blind person can get involved or don’t know how to begin? Here's you're oppertunity! We are a small group of people interested in doing community service. We enjoy giving back , and we believe that it is important for blind people to get involved in the community. So if you enjoy community service, or if you are interested in possibly doing some community service work in the future, please join us! We are always welcoming new members. We hold monthly conference calls, during which we present a topic for discussion or guest speaker to talk about his/her community service experiences. We also have a blog, where we post summaries of our conference calls and welcome personal stories about the service work people like you do And, if that’s not enough, we even have a list serve that enables us to connect, share stories, ask questions, and post Articles/announcements about topics of interest related to community service. Our blog is located at: http://nfbcommunityservice.wordpress.com/ Or, join our list serve by going to: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/community-service_nfbnet.orgg. Please feel free to contact us if you have any questions, new ideas, or wish to get involved. Contact email: nfbcsoutreach at gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu May 26 20:43:50 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 16:43:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? Message-ID: <4ddebb9f.890ddd0a.3173.1730@mx.google.com> Mike, Finally, I agree with you! * Smile! If you lose enough sight (notice I say sight, not vision, remember the motto in my signature) that you can't function well by using your sight alone, you're, in essence, blind. I think the issue with the term "blind" and why some people like the term "visually impaired" is that visually impaired is a general term that refers to all the levels of vision loss: legally blind, low vision, significantly low vision, and total blindness. When I give presentations to sighted people about blindness, I use the term "blind and visually impaired" (I know, a loss of sight, never a loss of vision, but sighted people don't think of it that way, know your audience here) to get the point across to them that there are different levels of sight loss. A false belief in the sighted world is that there are two categories in sight: sighted (those who don't carry a cane or handle a dog and have sight, but maybe are legally blind or low-sight but are not totally blind) and total blindness (can't see at all, relies on a cane or a dog to travel and Braille to read.) Just my thoughts! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Freeman wrote: I joined, for the reasons, everyone here mentioned. I'm actually going to join the group, next year, at convention. I do, however, want to say, that the term should be sight impaired. I like Chris's motto, "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision." That's what I agree with. I hate "Visually impaired." That is the worst term in the world! Blessings, Joshua On 5/24/11, Justin Young wrote: I joined because I love hearing all the great ideas/suggestions/advice people have to give whenever I am unsure of what to do/where to find something or anything along these lines. I also love helping when I know the answer to someone else who is unsure of something as well. I also love reading all the amazing things that people in their divisions are doing! Finally, I must agree with the point that we have to put an end to the missconceptions that some people still have about us(Blind/Visually Impaired individuals). Justin On 5/24/11, anjelinac26 at gmail.com wrote: I joined nabs to learn from other blind students as well as hoping to do what I can to change societies misconceptions of blindness. The list has been a valuable sounding board for questions over the years. Anjelina Sent from my iPhone On May 24, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Darian Smith wrote: Hey all, I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions and more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want to be involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you contribute to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of your state division. If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed. Thanks! Darian p.s. I am seriously curious :) -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac 26%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40 gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From freespirit328 at gmail.com Thu May 26 21:13:05 2011 From: freespirit328 at gmail.com (Jennifer Aberdeen) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 17:13:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC><279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com><87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> Message-ID: Hi all, I just thought I would put my two cents in here... My boyfriend and I have been together for a little over a year and a half. He is totally blind and a diabetic. I am totally blind, hard of hearing in one ear and use a manual wheelchair. We make it work. He takes paratransit to come and visit me, and I do the same. I understand that the rules for paratransit might be different in other states, but in RI they are pretty liberal. We have taken paratransit to go places together as well. Both of us find paratransit a pain, but what else can we do? I've dated sighted people as well. None of those relationships worked out, but I don't think it had to do with my lack of sight. The just weren't the right ones for me. My boyfriend and I have many things in common besides blindness, and I think that is what counts. Jen ___ From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu May 26 21:33:51 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 17:33:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Math-to-Speech technology project In-Reply-To: <4DDF92D5-CE12-4264-91D6-5B8D71FFABBE@gmail.com> References: <4DDF92D5-CE12-4264-91D6-5B8D71FFABBE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <89D7B383A8194189B928F9B2DD4AAD04@OwnerPC> Kevin, Oh my; as far as I know bringing a brailler is a common practice. I don't know who is giving you problems, but I'd say go up the chain and if you still have issues, file a complaint with the US Dept of ED civil rights division. -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Fjelsted Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 1:01 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Math-to-Speech technology project An interesting corollary on this whole thing although it may not see to be related but I experiencing increasing resistance in testing centers when I tell them I need to bring a Braille Writer in order to solve math problems. If we are not virulent we will be locked out of testing centers when we insist on Braille either reading or writing. -Kevin On May 26, 2011, at 11:27 AM, Loew, Ruth wrote: > New Math-to-Speech Technologies to Help Blind and Visually Impaired > Students Master Mathematics > > Princeton, N.J. (May 24, 2011) - > Educational Testing Service (ETS) and Design Science have announced they > are working jointly to modify MathType(tm) and MathPlayer(tm), so that > classroom materials, tests and other documents containing mathematical > content may be clearly spoken by computers. This new math-to-speech > technology will provide students who are blind or have other visual > impairments the tools they need to learn, practice, and take math and > science tests on a more equal footing with their classroom peers. > Some of the country's leading subject-matter experts and developers of > assistive technology for students who are blind or visually impaired will > assist on the project which begins July 1, 2011, and is supported by a > $1.5 million Institute of Education Sciences grant. > "Existing assistive technology that provides synthetic speech for > electronic text does at best a limited job of making math accessible for > this group of students," explains Lois Frankel, an ETS Assessment > Specialist and the leader of the effort. "The current technology falls > short because it generally does not 'know' how to describe mathematical > expressions, especially in a way that provides access to their nonlinear > structure. > "ETS and Design Science will work together to enhance MathPlayer, the tool > that voices the math encoded in MathML, so that it sounds more like what > students - particularly those in Algebra I - are used to hearing," Frankel > says. "We also plan to work on a number of customizations to MathType, > including a feature to allow teachers and other users to select how > mathematical expressions are described. For example, they could select > whether the machine says 'four over five' or 'four fifths.' Another > customization we plan to add is keyboard navigation that allows blind or > visually impaired users to go back and replay voiced segments in > mathematically meaningful 'chunks.' Our goal is to provide students and > teachers with a better system for voicing mathematical notation that > includes some truly useful functionality." > "It has been a long-term Design Science goal to make math accessible, and > our team has been working hard at it for over six years," said Neil > Soiffer, Senior Scientist at Design Science. "It's a great opportunity to > be partnering with an organization the stature and importance of ETS, to > push the state-of-the-art forward." > Working with Frankel and Soiffer on the effort are ETS Assessment > Specialist Beth Brownstein, Research Scientist Eric Hansen, and Senior > Research Scientist Cara Laitusis. Among the other organizations and > consultants who will take part in the project are: > * > > De Witt & Associates, specializes in accessibility training, learning > systems and support, and will provide advice on the implementation of > MathML accessibility tools and assist in the development of training > modules for students and teachers. > * GW Micro, a leading firm in the adaptive technology industry, will > modify its Window-Eyes screen reader software to work seamlessly with the > tools developed by the project. > * Jim Allan, the accessibility coordinator and webmaster for the > Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. > * Maylene Bird, a teacher of mathematics to visually impaired > students at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. > * Christine Hinton, a Program Development Specialist for the New > Jersey Commission for the Blind and Visually Impaired, will help recruit > student participants from inclusive schools in New Jersey. > * Gaylen Kapperman, a professor with a visual disability, with > specialization in research and development projects pertaining to > mathematics instruction and assistive technology used by individuals who > are blind or are visually impaired. > * Abraham Nemeth, the author of The Nemeth Braille Code for > Mathematics and Science Notation and a blind expert in making mathematics > accessible to blind individuals. > * Susan Osterhaus, a secondary mathematics teacher and statewide > math accessibility expert at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually > Impaired. > "The criteria for success in this project will be three-fold," explains > Marisa Farnum, Vice President of Assessment Development at ETS. "First, > will students using the tailored tools over the status quo be better able > to solve algebra problems at an appropriate level? And, are they better > able to correctly identify the structure of algebra-level math expressions > when using the tools? Second, will math teachers be able to use the > authoring tools developed by this project to quickly and easily create > math materials that are accessible to their students with visual > impairments? And finally, do the teachers and students who participate as > subjects in these development efforts find the tools provided usable and > convenient?" > About ETS > At nonprofit ETS, we advance quality and equity in education for people > worldwide by creating assessments based on rigorous research. ETS serves > individuals, educational institutions and government agencies by providing > customized solutions for teacher certification, English language learning, > and elementary, secondary and post-secondary education, as well as > conducting education research, analysis and policy studies. Founded in > 1947, ETS develops, administers and scores more than 50 million tests > annually - including the TOEFL(r) and TOEIC(r) tests, the GRE(r) tests and > The Praxis Series(tm) assessments - in more than 180 countries, at over > 9,000 locations worldwide. www.ets.org. > > About Design Science > Founded in 1986 and headquartered in Long Beach, California, Design > Science develops software used by educators, scientists and publishing > professionals, including MathType, Equation Editor in Microsoft Office, > MathFlow, MathDaisy and MathPlayer, to communicate on the web and in > print. For more information please visit > www.dessci.com. > > Ruth C. Loew, Ph.D. > Assistant Director > Office of Disability Policy, ETS > phone: 609-683-2984 > fax: 609-683-2220 > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu May 26 21:37:07 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 17:37:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Math-to-Speech technology project In-Reply-To: <1C2D78D6-986E-434B-B508-23842753EED9@gmail.com> References: <1C2D78D6-986E-434B-B508-23842753EED9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <622153CC4D7C490AB165A932E2042284@OwnerPC> Kevin, Tell the university that blind people are different. For some speech works, but for many, especially those who grew up blind, they need nemeth. Tell them that speech cannot work for everything. I cannot do it with speech because I can't remember the long equations. BTW I use large print, but still when I hear it I need to write it down. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Fjelsted Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 12:48 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list ; Loew, Ruth Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Math-to-Speech technology project THis is definitely a very dangerous slippery slope to put so much emphasis on speech for Math. I am currently fighting a huge battle with a disability services office for major university who has tried to force the use of speech over Braille Nemeth code. In the first place if there is any extensive math to be done the problem steps are almost always going to require that one write them down. If one is BLind then Nemeth code is the only way to go. This touches at the very root of an issue that is trying to force speech at the expense of Braille. to provide an excuse to avoid using Braille by permitting speech for Math is very dangerous. As much emphasis should be placed on accurate translation to Braille Nemeth in this project as the speech effort. For this amount of money, is any of it being allocated to Nemeth Braille on the fly support translation from Design Science software? -Kevin On May 26, 2011, at 11:27 AM, Loew, Ruth wrote: > New Math-to-Speech Technologies to Help Blind and Visually Impaired > Students Master Mathematics > > Princeton, N.J. (May 24, 2011) - > Educational Testing Service (ETS) and Design Science have announced they > are working jointly to modify MathType(tm) and MathPlayer(tm), so that > classroom materials, tests and other documents containing mathematical > content may be clearly spoken by computers. This new math-to-speech > technology will provide students who are blind or have other visual > impairments the tools they need to learn, practice, and take math and > science tests on a more equal footing with their classroom peers. > Some of the country's leading subject-matter experts and developers of > assistive technology for students who are blind or visually impaired will > assist on the project which begins July 1, 2011, and is supported by a > $1.5 million Institute of Education Sciences grant. > "Existing assistive technology that provides synthetic speech for > electronic text does at best a limited job of making math accessible for > this group of students," explains Lois Frankel, an ETS Assessment > Specialist and the leader of the effort. "The current technology falls > short because it generally does not 'know' how to describe mathematical > expressions, especially in a way that provides access to their nonlinear > structure. > "ETS and Design Science will work together to enhance MathPlayer, the tool > that voices the math encoded in MathML, so that it sounds more like what > students - particularly those in Algebra I - are used to hearing," Frankel > says. "We also plan to work on a number of customizations to MathType, > including a feature to allow teachers and other users to select how > mathematical expressions are described. For example, they could select > whether the machine says 'four over five' or 'four fifths.' Another > customization we plan to add is keyboard navigation that allows blind or > visually impaired users to go back and replay voiced segments in > mathematically meaningful 'chunks.' Our goal is to provide students and > teachers with a better system for voicing mathematical notation that > includes some truly useful functionality." > "It has been a long-term Design Science goal to make math accessible, and > our team has been working hard at it for over six years," said Neil > Soiffer, Senior Scientist at Design Science. "It's a great opportunity to > be partnering with an organization the stature and importance of ETS, to > push the state-of-the-art forward." > Working with Frankel and Soiffer on the effort are ETS Assessment > Specialist Beth Brownstein, Research Scientist Eric Hansen, and Senior > Research Scientist Cara Laitusis. Among the other organizations and > consultants who will take part in the project are: > * > > De Witt & Associates, specializes in accessibility training, learning > systems and support, and will provide advice on the implementation of > MathML accessibility tools and assist in the development of training > modules for students and teachers. > * GW Micro, a leading firm in the adaptive technology industry, will > modify its Window-Eyes screen reader software to work seamlessly with the > tools developed by the project. > * Jim Allan, the accessibility coordinator and webmaster for the > Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. > * Maylene Bird, a teacher of mathematics to visually impaired > students at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. > * Christine Hinton, a Program Development Specialist for the New > Jersey Commission for the Blind and Visually Impaired, will help recruit > student participants from inclusive schools in New Jersey. > * Gaylen Kapperman, a professor with a visual disability, with > specialization in research and development projects pertaining to > mathematics instruction and assistive technology used by individuals who > are blind or are visually impaired. > * Abraham Nemeth, the author of The Nemeth Braille Code for > Mathematics and Science Notation and a blind expert in making mathematics > accessible to blind individuals. > * Susan Osterhaus, a secondary mathematics teacher and statewide > math accessibility expert at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually > Impaired. > "The criteria for success in this project will be three-fold," explains > Marisa Farnum, Vice President of Assessment Development at ETS. "First, > will students using the tailored tools over the status quo be better able > to solve algebra problems at an appropriate level? And, are they better > able to correctly identify the structure of algebra-level math expressions > when using the tools? Second, will math teachers be able to use the > authoring tools developed by this project to quickly and easily create > math materials that are accessible to their students with visual > impairments? And finally, do the teachers and students who participate as > subjects in these development efforts find the tools provided usable and > convenient?" > About ETS > At nonprofit ETS, we advance quality and equity in education for people > worldwide by creating assessments based on rigorous research. ETS serves > individuals, educational institutions and government agencies by providing > customized solutions for teacher certification, English language learning, > and elementary, secondary and post-secondary education, as well as > conducting education research, analysis and policy studies. Founded in > 1947, ETS develops, administers and scores more than 50 million tests > annually - including the TOEFL(r) and TOEIC(r) tests, the GRE(r) tests and > The Praxis Series(tm) assessments - in more than 180 countries, at over > 9,000 locations worldwide. www.ets.org. > > About Design Science > Founded in 1986 and headquartered in Long Beach, California, Design > Science develops software used by educators, scientists and publishing > professionals, including MathType, Equation Editor in Microsoft Office, > MathFlow, MathDaisy and MathPlayer, to communicate on the web and in > print. For more information please visit > www.dessci.com. > > Ruth C. Loew, Ph.D. > Assistant Director > Office of Disability Policy, ETS > phone: 609-683-2984 > fax: 609-683-2220 > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Thu May 26 21:53:52 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 17:53:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Message-ID: <20110526215352.31669.66278@ip-10-203-66-216.ec2.internal> Darian, Can you elaborate more on what you mean? Do you have an example that illustrates what you're getting at? I'm just trying to make sense of your question. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hello all, > Something that I have been thinking about is how we in the NFB tend > to treat each other when we don't understand one's lifestyle, choice > of phrases, thought processes. > It is true that as humans we tend to fear the unknown, and act out > in ignorance, but sometimes I feel like it boarders on the extreme. > I would like to see what people find to be true in their expiriences > and how we can be accepting of people at whatever point that they are > at in their life expirences, education, blindness etc. > I would be very interested to hear about constructive stradigies > people have used to get this done. > Best, > Darian > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > — Robert Byrne > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Thu May 26 22:36:35 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 18:36:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Message-ID: <20110526223635.5027.44234@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Excellent points. I'm going to add to that some. I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when they attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of such judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible audience for the blind person in question. This audience is made of both the blind and the sighted community and creates thoughts like "What will my blind friends and colleagues think of me if I react this or that way? What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will sighted bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose situation where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that limits problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also creates a greater likelihood of negative response to perceived threats to the blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in the interaction. So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved with feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective and graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person who's offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom line is that by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we may be shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high stakes situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability to present the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to the public. On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in our heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us. The truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. Sure, we want to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone else. The sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions of one person. But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're all amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception to a rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that we're as diverse as they are are those who know how to deconstruct society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough diversity in our population to realize that they can't judge all of us based on one person. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of > taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we lose > sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a > therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is not > your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your place is to > be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, if that person, > after being shown compassion and alternative ways of thinking, doing > and living chooses to fall back into old patterns as soon as the > instructor's back is turned, that shows a lack of respect for everyone > around them, including themselves. So if a person wants to wallow in > misery and self-pity, let them! That person will either fall hard when > they find out their parents/family members/significant other or what > have you can't take care of them forever, and then they'll realize > what needs to happen in due time, or they will get sick of the status > quo and want to change it. And if people hold it against a decent > blind person because they've met a person like that in the past, it's > not worth it to try and make them feel any differently. They will > either come around in time or they won't. Choice is the key word here. > Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not hurting > anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose out on a > potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon as you meet > someone who's worth your time, you forget about that other person real > quick > On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: >> I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view that >> we get from the public in general. Most people who are sighted are not >> used to a blind person. You have to understand that one blind person >> being seen is a huge thing. They're now reliable for what a person >> thinks about blind people. They are the ones setting an example. So if >> you have a blind person who smells bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or >> just do not have the proper skills, the outside person will make an >> assumtion and say that all blind people are like that. i'm not saying >> it's right for blind people to call out other blind people with a >> skills set that is lower then theirs, they're just calling them out >> because they are representing blind people. It puts a bad label on us >> blind people who do take care of ourselves, have the skills to be >> independent and succeed. like i said, i'm not saying it's right but I >> don't think us who do have the skills want to have a negative >> conotation. Not all blind people poke their eyes, rock, hop, >> twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, do not clean their own >> clothes, or anything like that. So to be part of a group that's going >> to display such a view that is negative to the public, we fall right >> behind that. Am I making sense? >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri May 27 00:11:46 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 17:11:46 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? In-Reply-To: <4ddebb9f.890ddd0a.3173.1730@mx.google.com> References: <4ddebb9f.890ddd0a.3173.1730@mx.google.com> Message-ID: this is all well and good, but how does that connect with the topic? On 5/26/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Mike, > > Finally, I agree with you! * Smile! If you lose enough sight > (notice I say sight, not vision, remember the motto in my > signature) that you can't function well by using your sight > alone, you're, in essence, blind. I think the issue with the > term "blind" and why some people like the term "visually > impaired" is that visually impaired is a general term that refers > to all the levels of vision loss: legally blind, low vision, > significantly low vision, and total blindness. When I give > presentations to sighted people about blindness, I use the term > "blind and visually impaired" (I know, a loss of sight, never a > loss of vision, but sighted people don't think of it that way, > know your audience here) to get the point across to them that > there are different levels of sight loss. A false belief in the > sighted world is that there are two categories in sight: sighted > (those who don't carry a cane or handle a dog and have sight, but > maybe are legally blind or low-sight but are not totally blind) > and total blindness (can't see at all, relies on a cane or a dog > to travel and Braille to read.) Just my thoughts! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Freeman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 20:41:01 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs? > > What's wrong with the word "blind"? > > Mike Freeman > sent from my iPhone > > > On May 24, 2011, at 19:30, Joshua Lester > wrote: > > I joined, for the reasons, everyone here mentioned. > I'm actually going to join the group, next year, at convention. > I do, however, want to say, that the term should be sight > impaired. > I like Chris's motto, "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision." > That's what I agree with. > I hate "Visually impaired." > That is the worst term in the world! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 5/24/11, Justin Young wrote: > I joined because I love hearing all the great > ideas/suggestions/advice > people have to give whenever I am unsure of what to do/where to > find > something or anything along these lines. I also love helping > when I > know the answer to someone else who is unsure of something as > well. I > also love reading all the amazing things that people in their > divisions are doing! Finally, I must agree with the point that > we > have to put an end to the missconceptions that some people still > have > about us(Blind/Visually Impaired individuals). > > Justin > > On 5/24/11, anjelinac26 at gmail.com wrote: > I joined nabs to learn from other blind students as well as > hoping to do > what I can to change societies misconceptions of blindness. The > list has > been a valuable sounding board for questions over the years. > > Anjelina > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 24, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Darian Smith > wrote: > > Hey all, > I am just wondering, what made you want to be a part of nabs? > Yes, This is a large Division, made of a network of divisions > and > more to the point lots of us students. So what made you want > to be > involved with nabs? This could be anything from why do you post > messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings > at > Washington Seminar or National Convention? Or...Why do you > contribute > to the student slate, read the student slate, are a part of > your > state division. > If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I > missed. > Thanks! > Darian > > p.s. I am seriously curious :) > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac > 26%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40 > gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 > 62%40students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri May 27 00:34:26 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 17:34:26 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: <20110526223635.5027.44234@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> References: <20110526223635.5027.44234@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Very good points. We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one member of a minority group address another member of that same group if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should in public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive image of the rest of that group to society? I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model that positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that probably is the healthiest way to approach this idea of perception-changing that we think about alot, Does that make sense? thoughts? On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: > Excellent points. > > I'm going to add to that some. > > I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when they > attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or > discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of such > judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible audience for > the blind person in question. This audience is made of both the blind > and the sighted community and creates thoughts like "What will my blind > friends and colleagues think of me if I react this or that way? What > will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will sighted > bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose situation where > the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that limits > problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also creates a > greater likelihood of negative response to perceived threats to the > blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in the interaction. > So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person to > feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept boosts > that feeling considerably because of the stress involved with feeling > like they have to show themselves as both effective and graceful in > handling both the offers of help and the person who's offering it. Is > any of this making sense? So the bottom line is that by trying to be > the perfect ambassador for the blind, we may be shooting ourselves in > the foot by creating such a high stakes situation in our mind that the > stress lowers our ability to present the cool, calm, and effective > image we want to offer to the public. > > On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in our > heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us. The > truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. Sure, we want to > set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone else. The sad > truth is that we are judged based on the actions of one person. But the > thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that except to > expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our population. Even > if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that the sighted person > will still stereotype by saying that we're all amazing or that the one > individual in question is the exception to a rule. It seems to me that > the only people who really get that we're as diverse as they are are > those who know how to deconstruct society's grand narrative or are > those who have seen enough diversity in our population to realize that > they can't judge all of us based on one person. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of >> taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we lose >> sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a >> therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is not >> your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your place is to >> be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, if that person, >> after being shown compassion and alternative ways of thinking, doing >> and living chooses to fall back into old patterns as soon as the >> instructor's back is turned, that shows a lack of respect for everyone >> around them, including themselves. So if a person wants to wallow in >> misery and self-pity, let them! That person will either fall hard when >> they find out their parents/family members/significant other or what >> have you can't take care of them forever, and then they'll realize >> what needs to happen in due time, or they will get sick of the status >> quo and want to change it. And if people hold it against a decent >> blind person because they've met a person like that in the past, it's >> not worth it to try and make them feel any differently. They will >> either come around in time or they won't. Choice is the key word here. >> Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not hurting >> anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose out on a >> potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon as you meet >> someone who's worth your time, you forget about that other person real >> quick > >> On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: >>> I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view that >>> we get from the public in general. Most people who are sighted are not >>> used to a blind person. You have to understand that one blind person >>> being seen is a huge thing. They're now reliable for what a person >>> thinks about blind people. They are the ones setting an example. So if >>> you have a blind person who smells bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or >>> just do not have the proper skills, the outside person will make an >>> assumtion and say that all blind people are like that. i'm not saying >>> it's right for blind people to call out other blind people with a >>> skills set that is lower then theirs, they're just calling them out >>> because they are representing blind people. It puts a bad label on us >>> blind people who do take care of ourselves, have the skills to be >>> independent and succeed. like i said, i'm not saying it's right but I >>> don't think us who do have the skills want to have a negative >>> conotation. Not all blind people poke their eyes, rock, hop, >>> twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, do not clean their own >>> clothes, or anything like that. So to be part of a group that's going >>> to display such a view that is negative to the public, we fall right >>> behind that. Am I making sense? > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri May 27 00:48:59 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 17:48:59 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: References: <20110526223635.5027.44234@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Jedi, Sure-let me see... We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to "visually impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person uses products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille compass, braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people who don't utilize these things seem lesser for not. I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman than a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of two blind people dating. Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I would like to think that it's huge to consider where each person is in their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am fine with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told that we are "wrong" for thinking like we do. Does that make sense? Respecgfully, Darian On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: > Very good points. > We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to > remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one > member of a minority group address another member of that same group > if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should in > public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive image > of the rest of that group to society? > I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it > varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon > ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model that > positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that probably is > the healthiest way to approach this idea of perception-changing that > we think about alot, Does that make sense? > thoughts? > > On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: >> Excellent points. >> >> I'm going to add to that some. >> >> I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when they >> attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or >> discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of such >> judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible audience for >> the blind person in question. This audience is made of both the blind >> and the sighted community and creates thoughts like "What will my blind >> friends and colleagues think of me if I react this or that way? What >> will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will sighted >> bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose situation where >> the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that limits >> problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also creates a >> greater likelihood of negative response to perceived threats to the >> blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in the interaction. >> So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person to >> feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept boosts >> that feeling considerably because of the stress involved with feeling >> like they have to show themselves as both effective and graceful in >> handling both the offers of help and the person who's offering it. Is >> any of this making sense? So the bottom line is that by trying to be >> the perfect ambassador for the blind, we may be shooting ourselves in >> the foot by creating such a high stakes situation in our mind that the >> stress lowers our ability to present the cool, calm, and effective >> image we want to offer to the public. >> >> On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in our >> heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us. The >> truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. Sure, we want to >> set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone else. The sad >> truth is that we are judged based on the actions of one person. But the >> thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that except to >> expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our population. Even >> if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that the sighted person >> will still stereotype by saying that we're all amazing or that the one >> individual in question is the exception to a rule. It seems to me that >> the only people who really get that we're as diverse as they are are >> those who know how to deconstruct society's grand narrative or are >> those who have seen enough diversity in our population to realize that >> they can't judge all of us based on one person. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Original message: >>> That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of >>> taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we lose >>> sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a >>> therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is not >>> your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your place is to >>> be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, if that person, >>> after being shown compassion and alternative ways of thinking, doing >>> and living chooses to fall back into old patterns as soon as the >>> instructor's back is turned, that shows a lack of respect for everyone >>> around them, including themselves. So if a person wants to wallow in >>> misery and self-pity, let them! That person will either fall hard when >>> they find out their parents/family members/significant other or what >>> have you can't take care of them forever, and then they'll realize >>> what needs to happen in due time, or they will get sick of the status >>> quo and want to change it. And if people hold it against a decent >>> blind person because they've met a person like that in the past, it's >>> not worth it to try and make them feel any differently. They will >>> either come around in time or they won't. Choice is the key word here. >>> Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not hurting >>> anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose out on a >>> potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon as you meet >>> someone who's worth your time, you forget about that other person real >>> quick >> >>> On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: >>>> I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view that >>>> we get from the public in general. Most people who are sighted are not >>>> used to a blind person. You have to understand that one blind person >>>> being seen is a huge thing. They're now reliable for what a person >>>> thinks about blind people. They are the ones setting an example. So if >>>> you have a blind person who smells bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or >>>> just do not have the proper skills, the outside person will make an >>>> assumtion and say that all blind people are like that. i'm not saying >>>> it's right for blind people to call out other blind people with a >>>> skills set that is lower then theirs, they're just calling them out >>>> because they are representing blind people. It puts a bad label on us >>>> blind people who do take care of ourselves, have the skills to be >>>> independent and succeed. like i said, i'm not saying it's right but I >>>> don't think us who do have the skills want to have a negative >>>> conotation. Not all blind people poke their eyes, rock, hop, >>>> twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, do not clean their own >>>> clothes, or anything like that. So to be part of a group that's going >>>> to display such a view that is negative to the public, we fall right >>>> behind that. Am I making sense? >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From adrimpc80 at gmail.com Fri May 27 01:43:41 2011 From: adrimpc80 at gmail.com (ADRIANA PULIDO) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 20:43:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? In-Reply-To: <0FED38F7-CBC0-45DC-AAD0-140D1378E996@gmail.com> References: <33AFC354EB464A84970F6B621CC7655E@OwnerPC> <279C23B3-4076-49FA-A632-D25341B6A314@panix.com> <87FCC9FF9A3849F284872C71E6F878D8@Espy> <0FED38F7-CBC0-45DC-AAD0-140D1378E996@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all! Despite my boyfriend is sighted, I don't feel I depend on him. We live very far from each other, but if we're going to meet somewhere, we just establish some points of reference in order for me to arrive easily. In addition, I'm able to get home by myself. He just accompany to take the bus back home. 2011/5/26, Ignasi Cambra : > Josh, > Just use your cane to go from point A to point B. If you want to hire a > driver and don't have enough money, try to find a job somewhere in town or > something. With all due respect, you don't sound like you've been trying too > hard... > On May 26, 2011, at 11:52 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > >> What skills? >> How do you get from place to place? >> I live in a small town, that doesn't have public transportation, and I >> need to get from point A, to point B. >> Also, another stumbling block, when it comes to dating a blind person, >> is my allergies. >> If the person I'm dating has a guide dog, it would have to go, because >> I'm allergic to dogs. >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 5/26/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>> Wouldn't it be easier, and less limiting in terms of who can be a >>> potential >>> partner, to try to learn these skills? I was a bit worried about this as >>> well when I started a relationship with a blind person, but five years >>> in, >>> no one *has* to drive us anywhere. It was just a matter of learning the >>> skills and practicing, and actually, being together helped us a lot with >>> that. We always had someone to lean on for support and encouragement, and >>> to >>> "compare notes" with when we were trying to figure out a new skill. We >>> still >>> have a lot to learn, but no more than any college student living on their >>> own for the first time. Just saying that sometimes a blind partner can be >>> really good in terms of offering support and helping you become >>> independent. >>> My boyfriend knew a lot more than I did about travel, computers, and so >>> on >>> in the beginning, and has showed me a lot, and now I help him with things >>> like learning to cook and such. >>> >>> On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Joshua Lester < >>> jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> Yes. >>>> I want my wife, to be able to drive me from place to place, so my >>>> parents don't have to have that burden. >>>> That's the point! >>>> You win the million dollar prize! >>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>> >>>> On 5/26/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>> I'm not sure I understand how this would create a "double burden" on >>>>> your >>>>> family either. If she is an independent traveler, or independent in >>>>> other >>>>> ways as well, why should she create any burden? Why would this hinder >>>> your >>>>> independence unless you're looking for a partner who could drive you >>>> around >>>>> and such so your parents don't have to (and I don't think you are! I'm >>>> just >>>>> saying, I don't understand your point.) >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Hope Paulos >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> First of all, I don't understand, Joshua, how you believe dating a >>>>>> blind >>>>>> person would double your dependence while traveling? I'm a compitent >>>>>> traveler and a totally blind one at that. I am a musician as well. To >>>>>> be >>>>>> honest, I don't care whether or not my boyfriend is sighted or blind. >>>> It's >>>>>> who he is that counts, not his disability or lack thereof. >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" < >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org> >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:13 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> So you pick your life-partner on the basis of convenience? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike Freeman >>>>>>> sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 21:58, Joshua Lester < >>>> jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's exactly the problem! >>>>>>>> Ms. Principato, you hit the nail right on the head! >>>>>>>> My parents don't think that I can take care of myself, although I >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> trained at LWSB. >>>>>>>> It's crazy! >>>>>>>> I know I can succeed with accomidations, but they won't cooperate. >>>>>>>> Sighted girls wouldn't want me, because I still live at home. >>>>>>>> I don't want another blind person, because that would double my >>>>>>>> dependence, when it comes to traveling. >>>>>>>> I'm a Gospel singer, musician, and songwriter. >>>>>>>> I like to travel to churches. >>>>>>>> It would be more convenient for me to have a sighted person, than a >>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>> one. >>>>>>>> Remember, I'm totally blind. >>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is >>>> totally >>>>>>>>> blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you >>>> from >>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>> positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't >>>>>>>>> weigh >>>> in >>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>> when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd >>>>>>>>> known >>>>>>>>> several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate >>>> that >>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>> had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not >>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>> fault, >>>>>>>>> mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and >>>>>>>>> teacher >>>>>>>>> misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's >>>> another >>>>>>>>> topic >>>>>>>>> entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we >>>>>>>>> had >>>>>>>>> talked >>>>>>>>> a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my >>>> own >>>>>>>>> blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend >>>> time >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could >>>>>>>>> do, >>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>> or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was >>>> only >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he >>>>>>>>> approached >>>>>>>>> blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 >>>> years >>>>>>>>> now, >>>>>>>>> and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have >>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>> degree >>>>>>>>> of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found >>>>>>>>> "the >>>>>>>>> one". >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a >>>>>>>>> completely >>>>>>>>> sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I >>>> might >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I >>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>> think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to >>>> her. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick >>>> me >>>>>>>>> up or >>>>>>>>> I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere >>>> (which >>>>>>>>> often >>>>>>>>> resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired >>>> from >>>>>>>>> travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was >>>>>>>>> available, >>>>>>>>> she >>>>>>>>> would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as >>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>> She, >>>>>>>>> apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> when I >>>>>>>>> observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It >>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>> in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is >>>> currently >>>>>>>>> in a >>>>>>>>> long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly >>>> blindness >>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>> not a turn-off to her. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> big >>>>>>>>> thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any >>>>>>>>> significant >>>>>>>>> others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> such. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -Jamie >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Homberto, >>>>>>>>>> I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. >>>>>>>>>> Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, >>>> after >>>>>>>>>> a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to >>>>>>>>>> achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to >>>>>>>>>> date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if >>>>>>>>>> anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. >>>>>>>>>> I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a >>>>>>>>>> blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a >>>> lot, >>>>>>>>>> after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off >>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>> you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I >>>>>>>>>> think most blind people would, too. >>>>>>>>>> So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's >>>>>>>>>> fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>> date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have >>>> the >>>>>>>>>> right training to manage things), more power to you. If the >>>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>>> you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each >>>> other, >>>>>>>>>> more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight >>>>>>>>>> shouldn't change anything. >>>>>>>>>> Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my >>>>>>>>>> friends >>>>>>>>>> are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term >>>> relationship, >>>>>>>>>> odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because >>>>>>>>>> sighted >>>>>>>>>> people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be >>>>>>>>>> sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a >>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>> girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be >>>>>>>>>> happy. >>>>>>>>>> Take care, >>>>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Humberto, >>>>>>>>>>> If you are comfortable with who you are and can demonstrate you >>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>> things for yourself then either partner will work. If someone is >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> attracted >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> to you, I hope appearance would be only part of it. So go with >>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>> feels >>>>>>>>>>> right. >>>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: Humberto >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:23 PM >>>>>>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> Cc: blindtlk at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] dating seaghted people Vs. Blind people? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hello dear listers, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm wanting to know, and I've been curious about, your opinions >>>>>>>>>>> on the topic stated in the subject line. I think this discussion >>>>>>>>>>> has been shared already on this list a little bit but it would be >>>>>>>>>>> good for us to discuss this as a matter of opinions are >>>>>>>>>>> concerned. >>>>>>>>>>> So, let me begin by asking, what do you think about going out >>>>>>>>>>> with a sighted person Vs. a blind person? Are there any main >>>>>>>>>>> differences, if any, on dating blind people or sighted people? >>>>>>>>>>> Will a blind person expect to date or marry another blind person? >>>>>>>>>>> If I date a sighted person, for instance, will I have to deal >>>>>>>>>>> with the blindness misconceptions that people sometimes have? How >>>>>>>>>>> can a blind person get that sighted person to think that the >>>>>>>>>>> blind person can become a competent member of society by doing >>>>>>>>>>> everything else that a sighted person can do. >>>>>>>>>>> I myself have a blind girlfriend, and yes, we enjoy each other as >>>>>>>>>>> much as 2 sighted people will enjoy each other's engagement. I've >>>>>>>>>>> been going with her for about 4 years now, and we still keep in >>>>>>>>>>> touch. >>>>>>>>>>> would it be different if I make the choice to go out with a >>>>>>>>>>> sighted girl, yet knowing that my blindness is just a >>>>>>>>>>> characteristic? Will she understand that? >>>>>>>>>>> I ask these questions only for your thoughts, and I wouldn't just >>>>>>>>>>> want to start a huge debate here. I must stress, though, that if >>>>>>>>>>> I do choose to date a sighted girlfriend, she must know that my >>>>>>>>>>> blindness will not stop me from doing anything that I want to, >>>>>>>>>>> and having high expectations. >>>>>>>>>>> But is there anything that, specifically speaking, a sighted >>>>>>>>>>> person looks for when he or she is trying to date a blind person, >>>>>>>>>>> versus a blind person trying to date a blind person? Is personal >>>>>>>>>>> gloaming a big deal for this? Have you guy gone through >>>>>>>>>>> experiences like that, whether you decide to date someone who is >>>>>>>>>>> sighted or who is blind? I know this might seem quite obvious, >>>>>>>>>>> but I understand that, unfair or fair as it might seem, sighted >>>>>>>>>>> people, the first thing they look at, is how you look. They first >>>>>>>>>>> look at you visually and they know immediately whether to stick >>>>>>>>>>> with one or not. >>>>>>>>>>> Any thoughts? Opinions? experiences? questions? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, Humberto >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrimpc80%40gmail.com > -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga en Inglés y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright para Maestría. From k7uij at panix.com Fri May 27 03:45:37 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 20:45:37 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: References: <20110526223635.5027.44234@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: <009401cc1c20$8b285830$a1790890$@panix.com> Darian: What do you think African-americans would have said during the 1950's and 1960's had one of their number said he/she would rather date a Caucasian person because of the concern for two black persons dating? Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Jedi, Sure-let me see... We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to "visually impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person uses products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille compass, braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people who don't utilize these things seem lesser for not. I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman than a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of two blind people dating. Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I would like to think that it's huge to consider where each person is in their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am fine with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told that we are "wrong" for thinking like we do. Does that make sense? Respecgfully, Darian On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: > Very good points. > We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to > remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one > member of a minority group address another member of that same group > if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should in > public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive image of > the rest of that group to society? > I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it > varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon > ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model that > positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that probably is > the healthiest way to approach this idea of perception-changing that > we think about alot, Does that make sense? > thoughts? > > On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: >> Excellent points. >> >> I'm going to add to that some. >> >> I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when they >> attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or >> discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of such >> judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible audience for >> the blind person in question. This audience is made of both the blind >> and the sighted community and creates thoughts like "What will my >> blind friends and colleagues think of me if I react this or that way? >> What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will sighted >> bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose situation >> where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that limits >> problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also creates a >> greater likelihood of negative response to perceived threats to the >> blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in the interaction. >> So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person >> to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept >> boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved with >> feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective and >> graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person who's >> offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom line is that >> by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we may be >> shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high stakes >> situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability to present >> the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to the public. >> >> On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in our >> heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us. The >> truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. Sure, we want >> to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone else. The >> sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions of one person. >> But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that >> except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our >> population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that >> the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're all >> amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception to a >> rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that we're >> as diverse as they are are those who know how to deconstruct >> society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough diversity >> in our population to realize that they can't judge all of us based on one person. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Original message: >>> That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of >>> taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we lose >>> sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a >>> therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is >>> not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your place >>> is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, if that >>> person, after being shown compassion and alternative ways of >>> thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old patterns as >>> soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows a lack of >>> respect for everyone around them, including themselves. So if a >>> person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! That >>> person will either fall hard when they find out their parents/family >>> members/significant other or what have you can't take care of them >>> forever, and then they'll realize what needs to happen in due time, >>> or they will get sick of the status quo and want to change it. And >>> if people hold it against a decent blind person because they've met >>> a person like that in the past, it's not worth it to try and make >>> them feel any differently. They will either come around in time or they won't. Choice is the key word here. >>> Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not hurting >>> anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose out on a >>> potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon as you meet >>> someone who's worth your time, you forget about that other person >>> real quick >> >>> On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: >>>> I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view >>>> that we get from the public in general. Most people who are sighted >>>> are not used to a blind person. You have to understand that one >>>> blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now reliable for >>>> what a person thinks about blind people. They are the ones setting >>>> an example. So if you have a blind person who smells bad, rocks, >>>> pokes their eyes or just do not have the proper skills, the outside >>>> person will make an assumtion and say that all blind people are >>>> like that. i'm not saying it's right for blind people to call out >>>> other blind people with a skills set that is lower then theirs, >>>> they're just calling them out because they are representing blind >>>> people. It puts a bad label on us blind people who do take care of >>>> ourselves, have the skills to be independent and succeed. like i >>>> said, i'm not saying it's right but I don't think us who do have >>>> the skills want to have a negative conotation. Not all blind people >>>> poke their eyes, rock, hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, >>>> do not clean their own clothes, or anything like that. So to be >>>> part of a group that's going to display such a view that is >>>> negative to the public, we fall right behind that. Am I making sense? >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower >>>> 17%40gmail.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjed >>> i%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >> mail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: > http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. - Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From valandkayla at gmail.com Fri May 27 04:05:42 2011 From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 23:05:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] kindle/brf books Message-ID: Greetings all, Ihave a question or two that kind of relates to the future of braille books due to the kindle and other forms of ebooks. I could have posted this in that thread, but i feared by my questions that the topic might be thrown ...well, off topic. first, does anyone know if the kindle is accessible for the mac? is the mac ap or the mac software for kindle accessible with VO? I don't want to purchase a kindle device if i have a computer that could do teh same thing...too many gadgets to cary around for me. Second, I believe that it's kidn of irronic how the nfb is going on about all this new technology that "speaks" to su more than we encourage people to read braile. I love autio books as much as the next person, but i believe in reading the books in braille too when my hands are not tied up with other things. This is the main reason i keep my braillenot around, and dont' just read books with the speech on my ipod or computer. This brings me to my second question. Given that the bn can be used as a braille display, and given that i don't like using windows any more than i have to, does anyone thing that there is going to be, or should be, a mac ap for reading brf books? Just my thoughs and ponderables. __________________ "When you get a BS you think you know everything. When you get your MS you realize you know nothing. When you get your PhD you still realize you know nothing but it is ok because now you know no one else does either" From bacheadle at msn.com Fri May 27 09:24:16 2011 From: bacheadle at msn.com (Barbara Cheadle) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 04:24:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Braille Book Fair Needs Volunteers Message-ID: Volunteers needed to help with Braille Book Fair The Braille Book Fair (formerly called the flea market) needs enthusiastic, hard-working volunteers throughout the afternoon and evening on Tuesday, July 5, at the NFB Convention in Florida. We need Braille and print readers; teens and kids (kids under 12 must be accompanied by an adult) are welcomed, too. Volunteers can sign up for one or more 2-hour shifts: 1 - 3:00pm; 3:00 - 5:00 pm, 4:45 - 6:45 pm, and 6:45 pm to 8:00 pm (or until we have finished cleaning up). If you are interested, e-mail me and/or call my home phone below and I will answer your questions, and send you the information you will need for that day. Please, Do NOT (please) respond online to this listserv. Contact me at bacheadle at msn.com or call me at one of my phone numbers (the home phone is best until we get to convention, then use the cell phone number of course). Peace. Barbara Cheadle Catonsville, MD 21228 (410) 747-3472 cell: (410) 300-5232 bacheadle at msn.com From marsha.drenth at gmail.com Fri May 27 13:51:51 2011 From: marsha.drenth at gmail.com (Marsha Drenth) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 09:51:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Biology classes and guide dogs Message-ID: <935E5C28B3E448D5A52EB4D8CB268303@Cptr233> Hi Listers, I am posting to both NABS and NAGDU because the topics are relevant to both lists. Sorry if your getting this twice. In the fall, I will be taking Biology. The college requires that I sign an agreement that I will be safe at all times. On the agreement is that I will not wear any open toe shoes and there will be no pets in the class room. Now. Now. Before any one jumps on me, I know a guide is not a pet. But my guide dog will be going to campus with me and going to this class. How, what can I do to make Emma safer during this class? How or what can I do or say to make the college feel safer about my guide being in the classroom? What have other students done about this? I know some of you out there who are dog users have taken biology. I would like some tips and tricks here. Thank you, marsha From hope.paulos at gmail.com Fri May 27 16:31:13 2011 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 12:31:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Biology classes and guide dogs References: <935E5C28B3E448D5A52EB4D8CB268303@Cptr233> Message-ID: Hi there. I took my dog to my undergrad bio class. I just made sure,, that when we were dissecting the animals, that she was far away from the formaldehyde. Otherwise, she lay quietly under my table. Hope and Beignet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marsha Drenth" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Cc: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 9:51 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Biology classes and guide dogs > Hi Listers, > > > > I am posting to both NABS and NAGDU because the topics are relevant to > both > lists. Sorry if your getting this twice. > > > > In the fall, I will be taking Biology. The college requires that I sign an > agreement that I will be safe at all times. On the agreement is that I > will > not wear any open toe shoes and there will be no pets in the class room. > Now. Now. Before any one jumps on me, I know a guide is not a pet. But my > guide dog will be going to campus with me and going to this class. > > > > How, what can I do to make Emma safer during this class? How or what can I > do or say to make the college feel safer about my guide being in the > classroom? What have other students done about this? I know some of you > out > there who are dog users have taken biology. I would like some tips and > tricks here. > > > > Thank you, > > marsha > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com From rloew at ETS.ORG Fri May 27 17:24:19 2011 From: rloew at ETS.ORG (Loew, Ruth) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 10:24:19 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Math-to-Speech technology project Message-ID: Serena - The current project is focused on Algebra 1; it is too soon to say what a future project may address. Thanks for the suggestion, though; I'll keep it in mind, and I've already passed it along to the researchers. Ruth C. Loew, Ph.D. Assistant Director Office of Disability Policy, ETS phone: 609-683-2984 fax: 609-683-2220 Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 12:36:04 -0400 From: "Serena Cucco" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Math-to-Speech technology project Message-ID: <8E1B0FFA42DD487AA9B9AAC841A249A6 at SerenaPC> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just wondering, might this project deal with more advanced Math, such as Statistics, in the future? Serena From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri May 27 17:47:43 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 11:47:43 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Math-to-Speech technology project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kevin, I do see your point-for me, and probably for most blind people, nemeth is better than speech for math. While I personally wouldn't spend a million and a half dollars on a project like this if I had the money (maybe making braille notetakers compatible with nemeth out of the box would be a more productive idea), it's certainly not a bad concept. Especially in really advanced math where the way things are read matters a little more. That being said, along with this we should make sure that our rights to do math in braille are protected. Is this threatening the use of nemeth braille for advanced math? I doubt it-it sounds like this is in very early planning, will only work for basic algebra at first, and I don't think there's anything wrong with having two options out there as long as both are protected and you aren't forced to choose one. If you are being forced to make that kind of choice, I suspect that's due to stubborn people at your DSS office more than the possible availability of speech technology to help with math. So I am very skeptical this will go anywhere. Most sighted people read and write math, I think it's the same for us. I'd be honestly a little shocked if this is even able to compete with nemeth code as an exclusive way to access math-but it could maybe be a nice appendage to the code for some people. Remember Dr. Nemeth is helping with this to some extent...if he thought this threatened the security of the Nemeth code, I doubt he'd throw his name behind it. Warmly, Kirt On 5/27/11, Loew, Ruth wrote: > Serena - > > The current project is focused on Algebra 1; it is too soon to say what a > future project may address. Thanks for the suggestion, though; I'll keep it > in mind, and I've already passed it along to the researchers. > > Ruth C. Loew, Ph.D. > Assistant Director > Office of Disability Policy, ETS > phone: 609-683-2984 > fax: 609-683-2220 > > > Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 12:36:04 -0400 > From: "Serena Cucco" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Math-to-Speech technology project > Message-ID: <8E1B0FFA42DD487AA9B9AAC841A249A6 at SerenaPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Just wondering, might this project deal with more advanced Math, such as > Statistics, in the future? > > Serena > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From rloew at ETS.ORG Fri May 27 18:00:32 2011 From: rloew at ETS.ORG (Loew, Ruth) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 11:00:32 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 55, Issue 54 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In response to Kevin Fjelsted's posts: It is certainly not ETS's intent to displace braille. For the math-to-speech project, researchers are intentionally creating audio structured so that it can supplement braille when the latter is available, supporting multi-modal access. The audio will also permit access to math content on occasions when braille is unavailable and for individuals who do not know Nemeth braille. A different project, on which ETS is working with Measured Progress and the NimbleTools testing platform, is to make that platform compatible with refreshable braille displays. (Currently no platform for computer-based standardized testing is compatible with refreshable braille.) ETS continues to make braille forms of its tests available, including those tests that are offered on computer, and routinely approves Perkins braillers or braille slates as testing accommodations on request. I hope this is helpful. Ruth C. Loew, Ph.D. Assistant Director Office of Disability Policy, ETS phone: 609-683-2984 fax: 609-683-2220 -----Original Message----- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 12:01:17 -0500 From: Kevin Fjelsted To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Math-to-Speech technology project Message-ID: <4DDF92D5-CE12-4264-91D6-5B8D71FFABBE at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii An interesting corollary on this whole thing although it may not see to be related but I experiencing increasing resistance in testing centers when I tell them I need to bring a Braille Writer in order to solve math problems. If we are not virulent we will be locked out of testing centers when we insist on Braille either reading or writing. -Kevin ------------------------------------------- THis is definitely a very dangerous slippery slope to put so much emphasis on speech for Math. I am currently fighting a huge battle with a disability services office for major university who has tried to force the use of speech over Braille Nemeth code. In the first place if there is any extensive math to be done the problem steps are almost always going to require that one write them down. If one is BLind then Nemeth code is the only way to go. This touches at the very root of an issue that is trying to force speech at the expense of Braille. to provide an excuse to avoid using Braille by permitting speech for Math is very dangerous. As much emphasis should be placed on accurate translation to Braille Nemeth in this project as the speech effort. For this amount of money, is any of it being allocated to Nemeth Braille on the fly support translation from Design Science software? -Kevin Kevin Fjelsted [kfjelsted at gmail.com On May 26, 2011, at 11:27 AM, Loew, Ruth wrote: New Math-to-Speech Technologies to Help Blind and Visually Impaired Students Master Mathematics Princeton, N.J. (May 24, 2011) - Educational Testing Service (ETS) and Design Science have announced they are working jointly to modify MathType(tm) and MathPlayer(tm), so that classroom materials, tests and other documents containing mathematical content may be clearly spoken by computers. This new math-to-speech technology will provide students who are blind or have other visual impairments the tools they need to learn, practice, and take math and science tests on a more equal footing with their classroom peers. Some of the country's leading subject-matter experts and developers of assistive technology for students who are blind or visually impaired will assist on the project which begins July 1, 2011, and is supported by a $1.5 million Institute of Education Sciences grant. "Existing assistive technology that provides synthetic speech for electronic text does at best a limited job of making math accessible for this group of students," explains Lois Frankel, an ETS Assessment Specialist and the leader of the effort. "The current technology falls short because it generally does not 'know' how to describe mathematical expressions, especially in a way that provides access to their nonlinear structure. "ETS and Design Science will work together to enhance MathPlayer, the tool that voices the math encoded in MathML, so that it sounds more like what students - particularly those in Algebra I - are used to hearing," Frankel says. "We also plan to work on a number of customizations to MathType, including a feature to allow teachers and other users to select how mathematical expressions are described. For example, they could select whether the machine says 'four over five' or 'four fifths.' Another customization we plan to add is keyboard navigation that allows blind or visually impaired users to go back and replay voiced segments in mathematically meaningful 'chunks.' Our goal is to provide students and teachers with a better system for voicing mathematical notation that includes some truly useful functionality." "It has been a long-term Design Science goal to make math accessible, and our team has been working hard at it for over six years," said Neil Soiffer, Senior Scientist at Design Science. "It's a great opportunity to be partnering with an organization the stature and importance of ETS, to push the state-of-the-art forward." Working with Frankel and Soiffer on the effort are ETS Assessment Specialist Beth Brownstein, Research Scientist Eric Hansen, and Senior Research Scientist Cara Laitusis. Among the other organizations and consultants who will take part in the project are: De Witt & Associates, specializes in accessibility training, learning systems and support, and will provide advice on the implementation of MathML accessibility tools and assist in the development of training modules for students and teachers. GW Micro, a leading firm in the adaptive technology industry, will modify its Window-Eyes screen reader software to work seamlessly with the tools developed by the project. Jim Allan, the accessibility coordinator and webmaster for the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. Maylene Bird, a teacher of mathematics to visually impaired students at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. Christine Hinton, a Program Development Specialist for the New Jersey Commission for the Blind and Visually Impaired, will help recruit student participants from inclusive schools in New Jersey. Gaylen Kapperman, a professor with a visual disability, with specialization in research and development projects pertaining to mathematics instruction and assistive technology used by individuals who are blind or are visually impaired. Abraham Nemeth, the author of The Nemeth Braille Code for Mathematics and Science Notation and a blind expert in making mathematics accessible to blind individuals. Susan Osterhaus, a secondary mathematics teacher and statewide math accessibility expert at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. "The criteria for success in this project will be three-fold," explains Marisa Farnum, Vice President of Assessment Development at ETS. "First, will students using the tailored tools over the status quo be better able to solve algebra problems at an appropriate level? And, are they better able to correctly identify the structure of algebra-level math expressions when using the tools? Second, will math teachers be able to use the authoring tools developed by this project to quickly and easily create math materials that are accessible to their students with visual impairments? And finally, do the teachers and students who participate as subjects in these development efforts find the tools provided usable and convenient?" From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri May 27 18:16:36 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 11:16:36 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [nfb-talk] Braille Book Fair Needs Volunteers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is a pretty cool event. Please consider helping out! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Barbara Cheadle Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 04:24:16 -0500 Subject: [nfb-talk] Braille Book Fair Needs Volunteers To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org Volunteers needed to help with Braille Book Fair The Braille Book Fair (formerly called the flea market) needs enthusiastic, hard-working volunteers throughout the afternoon and evening on Tuesday, July 5, at the NFB Convention in Florida. We need Braille and print readers; teens and kids (kids under 12 must be accompanied by an adult) are welcomed, too. Volunteers can sign up for one or more 2-hour shifts: 1 - 3:00pm; 3:00 - 5:00 pm, 4:45 - 6:45 pm, and 6:45 pm to 8:00 pm (or until we have finished cleaning up). If you are interested, e-mail me and/or call my home phone below and I will answer your questions, and send you the information you will need for that day. Please, Do NOT (please) respond online to this listserv. Contact me at bacheadle at msn.com or call me at one of my phone numbers (the home phone is best until we get to convention, then use the cell phone number of course). Peace. Barbara Cheadle Catonsville, MD 21228 (410) 747-3472 cell: (410) 300-5232 bacheadle at msn.com _______________________________________________ nfb-talk mailing list nfb-talk at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfb-talk: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From serena.c.cucco at gmail.com Fri May 27 18:42:52 2011 From: serena.c.cucco at gmail.com (Serena Cucco) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 14:42:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Math-to-Speech technology project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Great thanks! -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Loew, Ruth Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 1:24 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Math-to-Speech technology project Serena - The current project is focused on Algebra 1; it is too soon to say what a future project may address. Thanks for the suggestion, though; I'll keep it in mind, and I've already passed it along to the researchers. Ruth C. Loew, Ph.D. Assistant Director Office of Disability Policy, ETS phone: 609-683-2984 fax: 609-683-2220 Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 12:36:04 -0400 From: "Serena Cucco" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Math-to-Speech technology project Message-ID: <8E1B0FFA42DD487AA9B9AAC841A249A6 at SerenaPC> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just wondering, might this project deal with more advanced Math, such as Statistics, in the future? Serena _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serena.c.cucco%40gma il.com From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Fri May 27 22:06:51 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 17:06:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Check out newest blog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello, As promised, here is a link to my newest blog for those interested. This week, I blog about dealing with wrong attitudes and perceptions about diabetes. Check it out at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/2011/05/26/dealing-with-the-crazies/ Bridgit Kuenning Pollpeter From ignasicambra at gmail.com Fri May 27 22:42:48 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 18:42:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Biology classes and guide dogs In-Reply-To: References: <935E5C28B3E448D5A52EB4D8CB268303@Cptr233> Message-ID: <3DDFFE23-6C8C-4A12-A451-F908AAAE727C@gmail.com> I wouldn't worry too much about this. As you said, a guide dog is not a pet and they can't prevent you from taking it to class. If your dog is well trained, it will probably just lay down and wait peacefully until class is over and you want to leave. On May 27, 2011, at 12:31 PM, Hope Paulos wrote: > Hi there. I took my dog to my undergrad bio class. I just made sure,, that when we were dissecting the animals, that she was far away from the formaldehyde. Otherwise, she lay quietly under my table. > Hope and Beignet > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marsha Drenth" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Cc: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" > Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 9:51 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Biology classes and guide dogs > > >> Hi Listers, >> >> >> >> I am posting to both NABS and NAGDU because the topics are relevant to both >> lists. Sorry if your getting this twice. >> >> >> >> In the fall, I will be taking Biology. The college requires that I sign an >> agreement that I will be safe at all times. On the agreement is that I will >> not wear any open toe shoes and there will be no pets in the class room. >> Now. Now. Before any one jumps on me, I know a guide is not a pet. But my >> guide dog will be going to campus with me and going to this class. >> >> >> >> How, what can I do to make Emma safer during this class? How or what can I >> do or say to make the college feel safer about my guide being in the >> classroom? What have other students done about this? I know some of you out >> there who are dog users have taken biology. I would like some tips and >> tricks here. >> >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> marsha >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From k7uij at panix.com Sat May 28 00:20:20 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 17:20:20 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 55, Issue 54 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005001cc1ccd$08106f70$18314e50$@panix.com> I concur with Ruth's comments below. No one disputes the utility, nay, almost the necessity, even, of Nemeth code Braille for mathematical work. However, there are times when Braille isn't available that audio presentation of mathematics becomes a necessity. I adduce as proof of this contention the fact that Dr. Nemeth himself developed what he called "math-speak" to clearly convey even complex equations. I do hope that something on the order of his Math-speak is used as a template for the forthcoming software. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Loew, Ruth Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 11:01 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 55, Issue 54 In response to Kevin Fjelsted's posts: It is certainly not ETS's intent to displace braille. For the math-to-speech project, researchers are intentionally creating audio structured so that it can supplement braille when the latter is available, supporting multi-modal access. The audio will also permit access to math content on occasions when braille is unavailable and for individuals who do not know Nemeth braille. A different project, on which ETS is working with Measured Progress and the NimbleTools testing platform, is to make that platform compatible with refreshable braille displays. (Currently no platform for computer-based standardized testing is compatible with refreshable braille.) ETS continues to make braille forms of its tests available, including those tests that are offered on computer, and routinely approves Perkins braillers or braille slates as testing accommodations on request. I hope this is helpful. Ruth C. Loew, Ph.D. Assistant Director Office of Disability Policy, ETS phone: 609-683-2984 fax: 609-683-2220 -----Original Message----- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 12:01:17 -0500 From: Kevin Fjelsted To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Math-to-Speech technology project Message-ID: <4DDF92D5-CE12-4264-91D6-5B8D71FFABBE at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii An interesting corollary on this whole thing although it may not see to be related but I experiencing increasing resistance in testing centers when I tell them I need to bring a Braille Writer in order to solve math problems. If we are not virulent we will be locked out of testing centers when we insist on Braille either reading or writing. -Kevin ------------------------------------------- THis is definitely a very dangerous slippery slope to put so much emphasis on speech for Math. I am currently fighting a huge battle with a disability services office for major university who has tried to force the use of speech over Braille Nemeth code. In the first place if there is any extensive math to be done the problem steps are almost always going to require that one write them down. If one is BLind then Nemeth code is the only way to go. This touches at the very root of an issue that is trying to force speech at the expense of Braille. to provide an excuse to avoid using Braille by permitting speech for Math is very dangerous. As much emphasis should be placed on accurate translation to Braille Nemeth in this project as the speech effort. For this amount of money, is any of it being allocated to Nemeth Braille on the fly support translation from Design Science software? -Kevin Kevin Fjelsted [kfjelsted at gmail.com On May 26, 2011, at 11:27 AM, Loew, Ruth wrote: New Math-to-Speech Technologies to Help Blind and Visually Impaired Students Master Mathematics Princeton, N.J. (May 24, 2011) - Educational Testing Service (ETS) and Design Science have announced they are working jointly to modify MathType(tm) and MathPlayer(tm), so that classroom materials, tests and other documents containing mathematical content may be clearly spoken by computers. This new math-to-speech technology will provide students who are blind or have other visual impairments the tools they need to learn, practice, and take math and science tests on a more equal footing with their classroom peers. Some of the country's leading subject-matter experts and developers of assistive technology for students who are blind or visually impaired will assist on the project which begins July 1, 2011, and is supported by a $1.5 million Institute of Education Sciences grant. "Existing assistive technology that provides synthetic speech for electronic text does at best a limited job of making math accessible for this group of students," explains Lois Frankel, an ETS Assessment Specialist and the leader of the effort. "The current technology falls short because it generally does not 'know' how to describe mathematical expressions, especially in a way that provides access to their nonlinear structure. "ETS and Design Science will work together to enhance MathPlayer, the tool that voices the math encoded in MathML, so that it sounds more like what students - particularly those in Algebra I - are used to hearing," Frankel says. "We also plan to work on a number of customizations to MathType, including a feature to allow teachers and other users to select how mathematical expressions are described. For example, they could select whether the machine says 'four over five' or 'four fifths.' Another customization we plan to add is keyboard navigation that allows blind or visually impaired users to go back and replay voiced segments in mathematically meaningful 'chunks.' Our goal is to provide students and teachers with a better system for voicing mathematical notation that includes some truly useful functionality." "It has been a long-term Design Science goal to make math accessible, and our team has been working hard at it for over six years," said Neil Soiffer, Senior Scientist at Design Science. "It's a great opportunity to be partnering with an organization the stature and importance of ETS, to push the state-of-the-art forward." Working with Frankel and Soiffer on the effort are ETS Assessment Specialist Beth Brownstein, Research Scientist Eric Hansen, and Senior Research Scientist Cara Laitusis. Among the other organizations and consultants who will take part in the project are: De Witt & Associates, specializes in accessibility training, learning systems and support, and will provide advice on the implementation of MathML accessibility tools and assist in the development of training modules for students and teachers. GW Micro, a leading firm in the adaptive technology industry, will modify its Window-Eyes screen reader software to work seamlessly with the tools developed by the project. Jim Allan, the accessibility coordinator and webmaster for the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. Maylene Bird, a teacher of mathematics to visually impaired students at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. Christine Hinton, a Program Development Specialist for the New Jersey Commission for the Blind and Visually Impaired, will help recruit student participants from inclusive schools in New Jersey. Gaylen Kapperman, a professor with a visual disability, with specialization in research and development projects pertaining to mathematics instruction and assistive technology used by individuals who are blind or are visually impaired. Abraham Nemeth, the author of The Nemeth Braille Code for Mathematics and Science Notation and a blind expert in making mathematics accessible to blind individuals. Susan Osterhaus, a secondary mathematics teacher and statewide math accessibility expert at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. "The criteria for success in this project will be three-fold," explains Marisa Farnum, Vice President of Assessment Development at ETS. "First, will students using the tailored tools over the status quo be better able to solve algebra problems at an appropriate level? And, are they better able to correctly identify the structure of algebra-level math expressions when using the tools? Second, will math teachers be able to use the authoring tools developed by this project to quickly and easily create math materials that are accessible to their students with visual impairments? And finally, do the teachers and students who participate as subjects in these development efforts find the tools provided usable and convenient?" _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sat May 28 05:23:30 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 22:23:30 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: <009401cc1c20$8b285830$a1790890$@panix.com> References: <20110526223635.5027.44234@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <009401cc1c20$8b285830$a1790890$@panix.com> Message-ID: Mike: African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon how they were treated by whites up to that time. It is curious that how african-americans were treated is always one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder, were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully protest the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we safely make those comparisons? unless I am missing something (I could be, and it wouldn't be the first or last time I have), we have some similarities with regards to civil rights, but largely our histories were quite different and the scars, deaths,risks were felt on largely different levels. Just some thoughts on the matter,and I very much appreciate the question. Respectfully, Darian On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > Darian: > > What do you think African-americans would have said during the 1950's and > 1960's had one of their number said he/she would rather date a Caucasian > person because of the concern for two black persons dating? > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Darian Smith > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Jedi, > Sure-let me see... > We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with > situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For example We > like to use the term "blind" as opposed to "visually impaired" or any > variant there of. We also like if a person uses products with Braille on > them (braille watches, braille compass, braille books and the like, but > somehow we tend to make people who don't utilize these things seem lesser > for not. > I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman than a > blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of two blind people > dating. > Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I would like > to think that it's huge to consider where each person is in > their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am fine > with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are accepting, > because seems to me that weas people hate to be told that we are "wrong" > for thinking like we do. > Does that make sense? > Respecgfully, > Darian > > > On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> Very good points. >> We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to >> remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one >> member of a minority group address another member of that same group >> if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should in >> public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive image of >> the rest of that group to society? >> I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it >> varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon >> ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model that >> positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that probably is >> the healthiest way to approach this idea of perception-changing that >> we think about alot, Does that make sense? >> thoughts? >> >> On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: >>> Excellent points. >>> >>> I'm going to add to that some. >>> >>> I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when they >>> attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or >>> discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of such >>> judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible audience for >>> the blind person in question. This audience is made of both the blind >>> and the sighted community and creates thoughts like "What will my >>> blind friends and colleagues think of me if I react this or that way? >>> What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will sighted >>> bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose situation >>> where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that limits >>> problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also creates a >>> greater likelihood of negative response to perceived threats to the >>> blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in the interaction. >>> So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person >>> to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept >>> boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved with >>> feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective and >>> graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person who's >>> offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom line is that >>> by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we may be >>> shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high stakes >>> situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability to present >>> the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to the public. >>> >>> On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in our >>> heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us. The >>> truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. Sure, we want >>> to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone else. The >>> sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions of one person. >>> But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that >>> except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our >>> population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that >>> the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're all >>> amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception to a >>> rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that we're >>> as diverse as they are are those who know how to deconstruct >>> society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough diversity >>> in our population to realize that they can't judge all of us based on one > person. >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> >>> Original message: >>>> That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of >>>> taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we lose >>>> sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a >>>> therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is >>>> not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your place >>>> is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, if that >>>> person, after being shown compassion and alternative ways of >>>> thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old patterns as >>>> soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows a lack of >>>> respect for everyone around them, including themselves. So if a >>>> person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! That >>>> person will either fall hard when they find out their parents/family >>>> members/significant other or what have you can't take care of them >>>> forever, and then they'll realize what needs to happen in due time, >>>> or they will get sick of the status quo and want to change it. And >>>> if people hold it against a decent blind person because they've met >>>> a person like that in the past, it's not worth it to try and make >>>> them feel any differently. They will either come around in time or they > won't. Choice is the key word here. >>>> Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not hurting >>>> anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose out on a >>>> potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon as you meet >>>> someone who's worth your time, you forget about that other person >>>> real quick >>> >>>> On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: >>>>> I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view >>>>> that we get from the public in general. Most people who are sighted >>>>> are not used to a blind person. You have to understand that one >>>>> blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now reliable for >>>>> what a person thinks about blind people. They are the ones setting >>>>> an example. So if you have a blind person who smells bad, rocks, >>>>> pokes their eyes or just do not have the proper skills, the outside >>>>> person will make an assumtion and say that all blind people are >>>>> like that. i'm not saying it's right for blind people to call out >>>>> other blind people with a skills set that is lower then theirs, >>>>> they're just calling them out because they are representing blind >>>>> people. It puts a bad label on us blind people who do take care of >>>>> ourselves, have the skills to be independent and succeed. like i >>>>> said, i'm not saying it's right but I don't think us who do have >>>>> the skills want to have a negative conotation. Not all blind people >>>>> poke their eyes, rock, hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, >>>>> do not clean their own clothes, or anything like that. So to be >>>>> part of a group that's going to display such a view that is >>>>> negative to the public, we fall right behind that. Am I making sense? >>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower >>>>> 17%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjed >>>> i%40samobile.net >>> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >>> mail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> - Robert Byrne >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From k7uij at panix.com Sat May 28 05:47:10 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 22:47:10 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: References: <20110526223635.5027.44234@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <009401cc1c20$8b285830$a1790890$@panix.com> Message-ID: <001a01cc1cfa$b05cb850$111628f0$@panix.com> Darian: WE of NFB often compare ourselves to African-americans because we consider ourselves, like them, to be a minority group within the larger society. Certainly, no one would argue that blind people were attacked with fire-hoses or lynched while trying to exercise their rights. I do know of plenty of instances when blind persons were arrested for refusing to move from exit-row seating to which they were legitimately assigned on airplanes and I know of one incident wherein a blind person was severely beaten for being a NFB member. I believe there's a bit about this comparison in Dr. Jernigan's 1976 banquet speech, "Of visions and Vultures". I appreciate your question to clarify the comparison. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 10:23 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Mike: African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon how they were treated by whites up to that time. It is curious that how african-americans were treated is always one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder, were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully protest the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we safely make those comparisons? unless I am missing something (I could be, and it wouldn't be the first or last time I have), we have some similarities with regards to civil rights, but largely our histories were quite different and the scars, deaths,risks were felt on largely different levels. Just some thoughts on the matter,and I very much appreciate the question. Respectfully, Darian On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > Darian: > > What do you think African-americans would have said during the 1950's and > 1960's had one of their number said he/she would rather date a Caucasian > person because of the concern for two black persons dating? > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Darian Smith > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Jedi, > Sure-let me see... > We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with > situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For example We > like to use the term "blind" as opposed to "visually impaired" or any > variant there of. We also like if a person uses products with Braille on > them (braille watches, braille compass, braille books and the like, but > somehow we tend to make people who don't utilize these things seem lesser > for not. > I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman than a > blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of two blind people > dating. > Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I would like > to think that it's huge to consider where each person is in > their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am fine > with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are accepting, > because seems to me that weas people hate to be told that we are "wrong" > for thinking like we do. > Does that make sense? > Respecgfully, > Darian > > > On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> Very good points. >> We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to >> remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one >> member of a minority group address another member of that same group >> if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should in >> public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive image of >> the rest of that group to society? >> I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it >> varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon >> ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model that >> positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that probably is >> the healthiest way to approach this idea of perception-changing that >> we think about alot, Does that make sense? >> thoughts? >> >> On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: >>> Excellent points. >>> >>> I'm going to add to that some. >>> >>> I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when they >>> attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or >>> discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of such >>> judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible audience for >>> the blind person in question. This audience is made of both the blind >>> and the sighted community and creates thoughts like "What will my >>> blind friends and colleagues think of me if I react this or that way? >>> What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will sighted >>> bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose situation >>> where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that limits >>> problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also creates a >>> greater likelihood of negative response to perceived threats to the >>> blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in the interaction. >>> So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person >>> to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept >>> boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved with >>> feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective and >>> graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person who's >>> offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom line is that >>> by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we may be >>> shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high stakes >>> situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability to present >>> the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to the public. >>> >>> On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in our >>> heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us. The >>> truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. Sure, we want >>> to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone else. The >>> sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions of one person. >>> But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that >>> except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our >>> population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that >>> the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're all >>> amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception to a >>> rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that we're >>> as diverse as they are are those who know how to deconstruct >>> society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough diversity >>> in our population to realize that they can't judge all of us based on one > person. >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> >>> Original message: >>>> That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of >>>> taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we lose >>>> sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a >>>> therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is >>>> not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your place >>>> is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, if that >>>> person, after being shown compassion and alternative ways of >>>> thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old patterns as >>>> soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows a lack of >>>> respect for everyone around them, including themselves. So if a >>>> person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! That >>>> person will either fall hard when they find out their parents/family >>>> members/significant other or what have you can't take care of them >>>> forever, and then they'll realize what needs to happen in due time, >>>> or they will get sick of the status quo and want to change it. And >>>> if people hold it against a decent blind person because they've met >>>> a person like that in the past, it's not worth it to try and make >>>> them feel any differently. They will either come around in time or they > won't. Choice is the key word here. >>>> Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not hurting >>>> anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose out on a >>>> potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon as you meet >>>> someone who's worth your time, you forget about that other person >>>> real quick >>> >>>> On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: >>>>> I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view >>>>> that we get from the public in general. Most people who are sighted >>>>> are not used to a blind person. You have to understand that one >>>>> blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now reliable for >>>>> what a person thinks about blind people. They are the ones setting >>>>> an example. So if you have a blind person who smells bad, rocks, >>>>> pokes their eyes or just do not have the proper skills, the outside >>>>> person will make an assumtion and say that all blind people are >>>>> like that. i'm not saying it's right for blind people to call out >>>>> other blind people with a skills set that is lower then theirs, >>>>> they're just calling them out because they are representing blind >>>>> people. It puts a bad label on us blind people who do take care of >>>>> ourselves, have the skills to be independent and succeed. like i >>>>> said, i'm not saying it's right but I don't think us who do have >>>>> the skills want to have a negative conotation. Not all blind people >>>>> poke their eyes, rock, hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, >>>>> do not clean their own clothes, or anything like that. So to be >>>>> part of a group that's going to display such a view that is >>>>> negative to the public, we fall right behind that. Am I making sense? >>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower >>>>> 17%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjed >>>> i%40samobile.net >>> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >>> mail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> - Robert Byrne >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.co m > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. - Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From brileyp at gmail.com Sat May 28 14:28:04 2011 From: brileyp at gmail.com (Briley Pollard) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 10:28:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: References: <20110526223635.5027.44234@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <009401cc1c20$8b285830$a1790890$@panix.com> Message-ID: I think it is not always an appropriate comparison to say our struggle for civil rights isn't completely parallel with the black American experience, but we have struggled for civil rights. Go read some history on how blind people have been treated by families and institutions over the years. Blind children were targets for sexual assault in extremely high numbers because they were considered to be vulnerable. They were placed in horrific living conditions throughout history in institutions because families believed that blindness was equal to ineffectiveness, and that they'd never be able to succeed or help out their relatives. As a people group, we have suffered many indignities that I don't think the current generation of blind people even come close to realizing. Best, Briley On May 28, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Darian Smith wrote: > Mike: > African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term > themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon how > they were treated by whites up to that time. > It is curious that how african-americans were treated is always > one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our > comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder, > were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully protest > the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we safely > make those comparisons? unless I am missing something (I could be, > and it wouldn't be the first or last time I have), we have some > similarities with regards to civil rights, but largely our histories > were quite different and the scars, deaths,risks were felt on largely > different levels. > Just some thoughts on the matter,and I very much appreciate the question. > Respectfully, > Darian > > On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> Darian: >> >> What do you think African-americans would have said during the 1950's and >> 1960's had one of their number said he/she would rather date a Caucasian >> person because of the concern for two black persons dating? >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Darian Smith >> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >> >> Jedi, >> Sure-let me see... >> We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with >> situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For example We >> like to use the term "blind" as opposed to "visually impaired" or any >> variant there of. We also like if a person uses products with Braille on >> them (braille watches, braille compass, braille books and the like, but >> somehow we tend to make people who don't utilize these things seem lesser >> for not. >> I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman than a >> blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of two blind people >> dating. >> Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I would like >> to think that it's huge to consider where each person is in >> their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am fine >> with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are accepting, >> because seems to me that weas people hate to be told that we are "wrong" >> for thinking like we do. >> Does that make sense? >> Respecgfully, >> Darian >> >> >> On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>> Very good points. >>> We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to >>> remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one >>> member of a minority group address another member of that same group >>> if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should in >>> public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive image of >>> the rest of that group to society? >>> I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it >>> varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon >>> ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model that >>> positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that probably is >>> the healthiest way to approach this idea of perception-changing that >>> we think about alot, Does that make sense? >>> thoughts? >>> >>> On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: >>>> Excellent points. >>>> >>>> I'm going to add to that some. >>>> >>>> I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when they >>>> attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or >>>> discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of such >>>> judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible audience for >>>> the blind person in question. This audience is made of both the blind >>>> and the sighted community and creates thoughts like "What will my >>>> blind friends and colleagues think of me if I react this or that way? >>>> What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will sighted >>>> bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose situation >>>> where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that limits >>>> problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also creates a >>>> greater likelihood of negative response to perceived threats to the >>>> blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in the interaction. >>>> So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person >>>> to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept >>>> boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved with >>>> feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective and >>>> graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person who's >>>> offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom line is that >>>> by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we may be >>>> shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high stakes >>>> situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability to present >>>> the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to the public. >>>> >>>> On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in our >>>> heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us. The >>>> truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. Sure, we want >>>> to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone else. The >>>> sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions of one person. >>>> But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that >>>> except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our >>>> population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that >>>> the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're all >>>> amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception to a >>>> rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that we're >>>> as diverse as they are are those who know how to deconstruct >>>> society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough diversity >>>> in our population to realize that they can't judge all of us based on one >> person. >>>> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi >>>> >>>> Original message: >>>>> That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of >>>>> taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we lose >>>>> sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a >>>>> therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is >>>>> not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your place >>>>> is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, if that >>>>> person, after being shown compassion and alternative ways of >>>>> thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old patterns as >>>>> soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows a lack of >>>>> respect for everyone around them, including themselves. So if a >>>>> person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! That >>>>> person will either fall hard when they find out their parents/family >>>>> members/significant other or what have you can't take care of them >>>>> forever, and then they'll realize what needs to happen in due time, >>>>> or they will get sick of the status quo and want to change it. And >>>>> if people hold it against a decent blind person because they've met >>>>> a person like that in the past, it's not worth it to try and make >>>>> them feel any differently. They will either come around in time or they >> won't. Choice is the key word here. >>>>> Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not hurting >>>>> anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose out on a >>>>> potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon as you meet >>>>> someone who's worth your time, you forget about that other person >>>>> real quick >>>> >>>>> On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: >>>>>> I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view >>>>>> that we get from the public in general. Most people who are sighted >>>>>> are not used to a blind person. You have to understand that one >>>>>> blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now reliable for >>>>>> what a person thinks about blind people. They are the ones setting >>>>>> an example. So if you have a blind person who smells bad, rocks, >>>>>> pokes their eyes or just do not have the proper skills, the outside >>>>>> person will make an assumtion and say that all blind people are >>>>>> like that. i'm not saying it's right for blind people to call out >>>>>> other blind people with a skills set that is lower then theirs, >>>>>> they're just calling them out because they are representing blind >>>>>> people. It puts a bad label on us blind people who do take care of >>>>>> ourselves, have the skills to be independent and succeed. like i >>>>>> said, i'm not saying it's right but I don't think us who do have >>>>>> the skills want to have a negative conotation. Not all blind people >>>>>> poke their eyes, rock, hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, >>>>>> do not clean their own clothes, or anything like that. So to be >>>>>> part of a group that's going to display such a view that is >>>>>> negative to the public, we fall right behind that. Am I making sense? >>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower >>>>>> 17%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjed >>>>> i%40samobile.net >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >>>> mail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> - Robert Byrne >>> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> - Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sat May 28 15:54:13 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 08:54:13 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: References: <20110526223635.5027.44234@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <009401cc1c20$8b285830$a1790890$@panix.com> Message-ID: I think I understand what you both are communicating. I don't believe (nor am I terribly sure that either Mike or Briley are actually saying) that there is a close comparison so much to we as blind people and the african/black american expirience in this nation. I just feel like we, as blind people will find a difficult time finding our own versions of Rodney King Or Oscar Grant, that would clearly underscore the same emotions, concerns and the like that as an ethnic grou blacks face. So in a way, I wonder if we arn't approachingan "apples and Oranges" situation? Best, Darian On 5/28/11, Briley Pollard wrote: > I think it is not always an appropriate comparison to say our struggle for > civil rights isn't completely parallel with the black American experience, > but we have struggled for civil rights. Go read some history on how blind > people have been treated by families and institutions over the years. Blind > children were targets for sexual assault in extremely high numbers because > they were considered to be vulnerable. They were placed in horrific living > conditions throughout history in institutions because families believed that > blindness was equal to ineffectiveness, and that they'd never be able to > succeed or help out their relatives. As a people group, we have suffered > many indignities that I don't think the current generation of blind people > even come close to realizing. > > Best, > Briley > On May 28, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Darian Smith wrote: > >> Mike: >> African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term >> themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon how >> they were treated by whites up to that time. >> It is curious that how african-americans were treated is always >> one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our >> comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder, >> were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully protest >> the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we safely >> make those comparisons? unless I am missing something (I could be, >> and it wouldn't be the first or last time I have), we have some >> similarities with regards to civil rights, but largely our histories >> were quite different and the scars, deaths,risks were felt on largely >> different levels. >> Just some thoughts on the matter,and I very much appreciate the >> question. >> Respectfully, >> Darian >> >> On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> Darian: >>> >>> What do you think African-americans would have said during the 1950's >>> and >>> 1960's had one of their number said he/she would rather date a Caucasian >>> person because of the concern for two black persons dating? >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Darian Smith >>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >>> >>> Jedi, >>> Sure-let me see... >>> We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with >>> situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For example >>> We >>> like to use the term "blind" as opposed to "visually impaired" or any >>> variant there of. We also like if a person uses products with Braille on >>> them (braille watches, braille compass, braille books and the like, but >>> somehow we tend to make people who don't utilize these things seem lesser >>> for not. >>> I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman than a >>> blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of two blind >>> people >>> dating. >>> Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I would >>> like >>> to think that it's huge to consider where each person is in >>> their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am fine >>> with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are accepting, >>> because seems to me that weas people hate to be told that we are "wrong" >>> for thinking like we do. >>> Does that make sense? >>> Respecgfully, >>> Darian >>> >>> >>> On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> Very good points. >>>> We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to >>>> remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one >>>> member of a minority group address another member of that same group >>>> if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should in >>>> public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive image of >>>> the rest of that group to society? >>>> I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it >>>> varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon >>>> ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model that >>>> positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that probably is >>>> the healthiest way to approach this idea of perception-changing that >>>> we think about alot, Does that make sense? >>>> thoughts? >>>> >>>> On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: >>>>> Excellent points. >>>>> >>>>> I'm going to add to that some. >>>>> >>>>> I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when they >>>>> attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or >>>>> discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of such >>>>> judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible audience for >>>>> the blind person in question. This audience is made of both the blind >>>>> and the sighted community and creates thoughts like "What will my >>>>> blind friends and colleagues think of me if I react this or that way? >>>>> What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will sighted >>>>> bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose situation >>>>> where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that limits >>>>> problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also creates a >>>>> greater likelihood of negative response to perceived threats to the >>>>> blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in the interaction. >>>>> So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person >>>>> to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept >>>>> boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved with >>>>> feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective and >>>>> graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person who's >>>>> offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom line is that >>>>> by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we may be >>>>> shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high stakes >>>>> situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability to present >>>>> the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to the public. >>>>> >>>>> On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in our >>>>> heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us. The >>>>> truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. Sure, we want >>>>> to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone else. The >>>>> sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions of one person. >>>>> But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that >>>>> except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our >>>>> population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that >>>>> the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're all >>>>> amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception to a >>>>> rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that we're >>>>> as diverse as they are are those who know how to deconstruct >>>>> society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough diversity >>>>> in our population to realize that they can't judge all of us based on >>>>> one >>> person. >>>>> >>>>> Respectfully, >>>>> Jedi >>>>> >>>>> Original message: >>>>>> That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of >>>>>> taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we lose >>>>>> sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a >>>>>> therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is >>>>>> not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your place >>>>>> is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, if that >>>>>> person, after being shown compassion and alternative ways of >>>>>> thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old patterns as >>>>>> soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows a lack of >>>>>> respect for everyone around them, including themselves. So if a >>>>>> person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! That >>>>>> person will either fall hard when they find out their parents/family >>>>>> members/significant other or what have you can't take care of them >>>>>> forever, and then they'll realize what needs to happen in due time, >>>>>> or they will get sick of the status quo and want to change it. And >>>>>> if people hold it against a decent blind person because they've met >>>>>> a person like that in the past, it's not worth it to try and make >>>>>> them feel any differently. They will either come around in time or >>>>>> they >>> won't. Choice is the key word here. >>>>>> Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not hurting >>>>>> anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose out on a >>>>>> potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon as you meet >>>>>> someone who's worth your time, you forget about that other person >>>>>> real quick >>>>> >>>>>> On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: >>>>>>> I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view >>>>>>> that we get from the public in general. Most people who are sighted >>>>>>> are not used to a blind person. You have to understand that one >>>>>>> blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now reliable for >>>>>>> what a person thinks about blind people. They are the ones setting >>>>>>> an example. So if you have a blind person who smells bad, rocks, >>>>>>> pokes their eyes or just do not have the proper skills, the outside >>>>>>> person will make an assumtion and say that all blind people are >>>>>>> like that. i'm not saying it's right for blind people to call out >>>>>>> other blind people with a skills set that is lower then theirs, >>>>>>> they're just calling them out because they are representing blind >>>>>>> people. It puts a bad label on us blind people who do take care of >>>>>>> ourselves, have the skills to be independent and succeed. like i >>>>>>> said, i'm not saying it's right but I don't think us who do have >>>>>>> the skills want to have a negative conotation. Not all blind people >>>>>>> poke their eyes, rock, hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, >>>>>>> do not clean their own clothes, or anything like that. So to be >>>>>>> part of a group that's going to display such a view that is >>>>>>> negative to the public, we fall right behind that. Am I making sense? >>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower >>>>>>> 17%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjed >>>>>> i%40samobile.net >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >>>>> mail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Darian Smith >>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>> >>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>> >>>> - Robert Byrne >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> - Robert Byrne >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> — Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From k7uij at panix.com Sat May 28 16:16:40 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 09:16:40 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: References: <20110526223635.5027.44234@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <009401cc1c20$8b285830$a1790890$@panix.com> Message-ID: <000001cc1d52$a134d620$e39e8260$@panix.com> Darian: Ask Primo Foyanini (if he's still alive) about being beaten up by a janitor at a Utah sheltered shop because he was/is a Federationist? While perhaps not in the same league as Rodney King, the beating *did* result in hospitalization. If you can find it, listen to the 1981 presidential Report. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 8:54 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others I think I understand what you both are communicating. I don't believe (nor am I terribly sure that either Mike or Briley are actually saying) that there is a close comparison so much to we as blind people and the african/black american expirience in this nation. I just feel like we, as blind people will find a difficult time finding our own versions of Rodney King Or Oscar Grant, that would clearly underscore the same emotions, concerns and the like that as an ethnic grou blacks face. So in a way, I wonder if we arn't approachingan "apples and Oranges" situation? Best, Darian On 5/28/11, Briley Pollard wrote: > I think it is not always an appropriate comparison to say our struggle > for civil rights isn't completely parallel with the black American > experience, but we have struggled for civil rights. Go read some > history on how blind people have been treated by families and > institutions over the years. Blind children were targets for sexual > assault in extremely high numbers because they were considered to be > vulnerable. They were placed in horrific living conditions throughout > history in institutions because families believed that blindness was > equal to ineffectiveness, and that they'd never be able to succeed or > help out their relatives. As a people group, we have suffered many > indignities that I don't think the current generation of blind people even come close to realizing. > > Best, > Briley > On May 28, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Darian Smith wrote: > >> Mike: >> African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term >> themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon how >> they were treated by whites up to that time. >> It is curious that how african-americans were treated is always >> one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our >> comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder, >> were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully protest >> the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we >> safely make those comparisons? unless I am missing something (I >> could be, and it wouldn't be the first or last time I have), we have >> some similarities with regards to civil rights, but largely our >> histories were quite different and the scars, deaths,risks were felt >> on largely different levels. >> Just some thoughts on the matter,and I very much appreciate the >> question. >> Respectfully, >> Darian >> >> On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> Darian: >>> >>> What do you think African-americans would have said during the >>> 1950's and 1960's had one of their number said he/she would rather >>> date a Caucasian person because of the concern for two black persons >>> dating? >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On Behalf Of Darian Smith >>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >>> >>> Jedi, >>> Sure-let me see... >>> We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with >>> situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For >>> example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to "visually >>> impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person uses >>> products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille compass, >>> braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people who >>> don't utilize these things seem lesser for not. >>> I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman >>> than a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of >>> two blind people dating. >>> Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I >>> would like to think that it's huge to consider where each person >>> is in >>> their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am fine >>> with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are >>> accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told that we are "wrong" >>> for thinking like we do. >>> Does that make sense? >>> Respecgfully, >>> Darian >>> >>> >>> On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> Very good points. >>>> We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to >>>> remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one >>>> member of a minority group address another member of that same >>>> group if they don't feel that this person is acting like they >>>> should in public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a >>>> positive image of the rest of that group to society? >>>> I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it >>>> varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon >>>> ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model >>>> that positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that >>>> probably is the healthiest way to approach this idea of >>>> perception-changing that we think about alot, Does that make sense? >>>> thoughts? >>>> >>>> On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: >>>>> Excellent points. >>>>> >>>>> I'm going to add to that some. >>>>> >>>>> I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when >>>>> they attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or >>>>> discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of >>>>> such judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible >>>>> audience for the blind person in question. This audience is made >>>>> of both the blind and the sighted community and creates thoughts >>>>> like "What will my blind friends and colleagues think of me if I react this or that way? >>>>> What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will >>>>> sighted bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose >>>>> situation where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress >>>>> that limits problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation >>>>> also creates a greater likelihood of negative response to >>>>> perceived threats to the blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in the interaction. >>>>> So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind >>>>> person to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience >>>>> concept boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress >>>>> involved with feeling like they have to show themselves as both >>>>> effective and graceful in handling both the offers of help and the >>>>> person who's offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the >>>>> bottom line is that by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the >>>>> blind, we may be shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a >>>>> high stakes situation in our mind that the stress lowers our >>>>> ability to present the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to the public. >>>>> >>>>> On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in >>>>> our heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about >>>>> us. The truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. >>>>> Sure, we want to set a good impression in all areas, but so does >>>>> everyone else. The sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions of one person. >>>>> But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that >>>>> except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our >>>>> population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely >>>>> that the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're >>>>> all amazing or that the one individual in question is the >>>>> exception to a rule. It seems to me that the only people who >>>>> really get that we're as diverse as they are are those who know >>>>> how to deconstruct society's grand narrative or are those who have >>>>> seen enough diversity in our population to realize that they can't >>>>> judge all of us based on one >>> person. >>>>> >>>>> Respectfully, >>>>> Jedi >>>>> >>>>> Original message: >>>>>> That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of >>>>>> taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we >>>>>> lose sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're >>>>>> a therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it >>>>>> is not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your >>>>>> place is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, >>>>>> if that person, after being shown compassion and alternative ways >>>>>> of thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old >>>>>> patterns as soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows a >>>>>> lack of respect for everyone around them, including themselves. >>>>>> So if a person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! >>>>>> That person will either fall hard when they find out their >>>>>> parents/family members/significant other or what have you can't >>>>>> take care of them forever, and then they'll realize what needs to >>>>>> happen in due time, or they will get sick of the status quo and >>>>>> want to change it. And if people hold it against a decent blind >>>>>> person because they've met a person like that in the past, it's >>>>>> not worth it to try and make them feel any differently. They will >>>>>> either come around in time or they >>> won't. Choice is the key word here. >>>>>> Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not >>>>>> hurting anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to >>>>>> lose out on a potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as >>>>>> soon as you meet someone who's worth your time, you forget about >>>>>> that other person real quick >>>>> >>>>>> On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: >>>>>>> I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view >>>>>>> that we get from the public in general. Most people who are >>>>>>> sighted are not used to a blind person. You have to understand >>>>>>> that one blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now >>>>>>> reliable for what a person thinks about blind people. They are >>>>>>> the ones setting an example. So if you have a blind person who >>>>>>> smells bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or just do not have the >>>>>>> proper skills, the outside person will make an assumtion and say >>>>>>> that all blind people are like that. i'm not saying it's right >>>>>>> for blind people to call out other blind people with a skills >>>>>>> set that is lower then theirs, they're just calling them out >>>>>>> because they are representing blind people. It puts a bad label >>>>>>> on us blind people who do take care of ourselves, have the >>>>>>> skills to be independent and succeed. like i said, i'm not >>>>>>> saying it's right but I don't think us who do have the skills >>>>>>> want to have a negative conotation. Not all blind people poke >>>>>>> their eyes, rock, hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, >>>>>>> do not clean their own clothes, or anything like that. So to be >>>>>>> part of a group that's going to display such a view that is negative to the public, we fall right behind that. Am I making sense? >>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepo >>>>>>> wer >>>>>>> 17%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >>>>>> jed >>>>>> i%40samobile.net >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >>>>> Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb% >>>>> 40g >>>>> mail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Darian Smith >>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>> >>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>> >>>> - Robert Byrne >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> - Robert Byrne >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40pani >>> x.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40 >>> gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> - Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%40gma >> il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gm > ail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. - Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From k7uij at panix.com Sat May 28 16:52:47 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 09:52:47 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: References: <20110526223635.5027.44234@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <009401cc1c20$8b285830$a1790890$@panix.com> Message-ID: <000101cc1d57$acc5dbb0$06519310$@panix.com> Although I was never subject to one, I can still remember when, at late as the 1960's, welfare workers conducted "night raids" with the help of the police wherein said workers would visit blind clients and go through their homes to make sure that nothing had been bought that would indicate that the clients had unreported income. This extended even to such items as a new dress. I echo Briley's sentiments that many today have no concept of what went down in the past. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Briley Pollard Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:28 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others I think it is not always an appropriate comparison to say our struggle for civil rights isn't completely parallel with the black American experience, but we have struggled for civil rights. Go read some history on how blind people have been treated by families and institutions over the years. Blind children were targets for sexual assault in extremely high numbers because they were considered to be vulnerable. They were placed in horrific living conditions throughout history in institutions because families believed that blindness was equal to ineffectiveness, and that they'd never be able to succeed or help out their relatives. As a people group, we have suffered many indignities that I don't think the current generation of blind people even come close to realizing. Best, Briley On May 28, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Darian Smith wrote: > Mike: > African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term > themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon how > they were treated by whites up to that time. > It is curious that how african-americans were treated is always > one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our > comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder, > were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully protest > the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we safely > make those comparisons? unless I am missing something (I could be, > and it wouldn't be the first or last time I have), we have some > similarities with regards to civil rights, but largely our histories > were quite different and the scars, deaths,risks were felt on largely > different levels. > Just some thoughts on the matter,and I very much appreciate the question. > Respectfully, > Darian > > On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> Darian: >> >> What do you think African-americans would have said during the >> 1950's and 1960's had one of their number said he/she would rather >> date a Caucasian person because of the concern for two black persons dating? >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Darian Smith >> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >> >> Jedi, >> Sure-let me see... >> We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with >> situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For >> example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to "visually >> impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person uses >> products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille compass, >> braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people who >> don't utilize these things seem lesser for not. >> I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman than >> a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of two >> blind people dating. >> Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I would >> like to think that it's huge to consider where each person is in >> their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am fine >> with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are >> accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told that we are "wrong" >> for thinking like we do. >> Does that make sense? >> Respecgfully, >> Darian >> >> >> On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>> Very good points. >>> We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to >>> remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one >>> member of a minority group address another member of that same group >>> if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should in >>> public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive image >>> of the rest of that group to society? >>> I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it >>> varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon >>> ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model that >>> positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that probably is >>> the healthiest way to approach this idea of perception-changing >>> that we think about alot, Does that make sense? >>> thoughts? >>> >>> On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: >>>> Excellent points. >>>> >>>> I'm going to add to that some. >>>> >>>> I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when >>>> they attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or >>>> discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of >>>> such judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible >>>> audience for the blind person in question. This audience is made of >>>> both the blind and the sighted community and creates thoughts like >>>> "What will my blind friends and colleagues think of me if I react this or that way? >>>> What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will >>>> sighted bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose >>>> situation where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that >>>> limits problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also >>>> creates a greater likelihood of negative response to perceived >>>> threats to the blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in the interaction. >>>> So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person >>>> to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept >>>> boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved >>>> with feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective >>>> and graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person >>>> who's offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom line >>>> is that by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we >>>> may be shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high >>>> stakes situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability to >>>> present the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to the public. >>>> >>>> On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in >>>> our heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us. >>>> The truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. Sure, we >>>> want to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone >>>> else. The sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions of one person. >>>> But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that >>>> except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our >>>> population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that >>>> the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're all >>>> amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception to >>>> a rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that >>>> we're as diverse as they are are those who know how to deconstruct >>>> society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough >>>> diversity in our population to realize that they can't judge all of >>>> us based on one >> person. >>>> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi >>>> >>>> Original message: >>>>> That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of >>>>> taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we >>>>> lose sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a >>>>> therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is >>>>> not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your >>>>> place is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, >>>>> if that person, after being shown compassion and alternative ways >>>>> of thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old >>>>> patterns as soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows a >>>>> lack of respect for everyone around them, including themselves. So >>>>> if a person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! >>>>> That person will either fall hard when they find out their >>>>> parents/family members/significant other or what have you can't >>>>> take care of them forever, and then they'll realize what needs to >>>>> happen in due time, or they will get sick of the status quo and >>>>> want to change it. And if people hold it against a decent blind >>>>> person because they've met a person like that in the past, it's >>>>> not worth it to try and make them feel any differently. They will >>>>> either come around in time or they >> won't. Choice is the key word here. >>>>> Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not >>>>> hurting anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose >>>>> out on a potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon >>>>> as you meet someone who's worth your time, you forget about that >>>>> other person real quick >>>> >>>>> On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: >>>>>> I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view >>>>>> that we get from the public in general. Most people who are >>>>>> sighted are not used to a blind person. You have to understand >>>>>> that one blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now >>>>>> reliable for what a person thinks about blind people. They are >>>>>> the ones setting an example. So if you have a blind person who >>>>>> smells bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or just do not have the >>>>>> proper skills, the outside person will make an assumtion and say >>>>>> that all blind people are like that. i'm not saying it's right >>>>>> for blind people to call out other blind people with a skills set >>>>>> that is lower then theirs, they're just calling them out because >>>>>> they are representing blind people. It puts a bad label on us >>>>>> blind people who do take care of ourselves, have the skills to be >>>>>> independent and succeed. like i said, i'm not saying it's right >>>>>> but I don't think us who do have the skills want to have a >>>>>> negative conotation. Not all blind people poke their eyes, rock, >>>>>> hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, do not clean their >>>>>> own clothes, or anything like that. So to be part of a group >>>>>> that's going to display such a view that is negative to the public, we fall right behind that. Am I making sense? >>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepow >>>>>> er >>>>>> 17%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindj >>>>> ed >>>>> i%40samobile.net >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%4 >>>> 0g >>>> mail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> - Robert Byrne >>> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> - Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >> mail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: > http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%40gmai > l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sat May 28 17:07:09 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 13:07:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Message-ID: <4de12bc7.4a8ee50a.2901.501b@mx.google.com> Is there a site with... the history of blind people and what they went through? I'm curious now, this is a good thread. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" wrote: Darian: What do you think African-americans would have said during the 1950's and 1960's had one of their number said he/she would rather date a Caucasian person because of the concern for two black persons dating? Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Jedi, Sure-let me see... We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to "visually impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person uses products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille compass, braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people who don't utilize these things seem lesser for not. I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman than a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of two blind people dating. Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I would like to think that it's huge to consider where each person is in their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am fine with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told that we are "wrong" for thinking like we do. Does that make sense? Respecgfully, Darian On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: Very good points. We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one member of a minority group address another member of that same group if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should in public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive image of the rest of that group to society? I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model that positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that probably is the healthiest way to approach this idea of perception-changing that we think about alot, Does that make sense? thoughts? On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: Excellent points. I'm going to add to that some. I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when they attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of such judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible audience for the blind person in question. This audience is made of both the blind and the sighted community and creates thoughts like "What will my blind friends and colleagues think of me if I react this or that way? What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will sighted bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose situation where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that limits problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also creates a greater likelihood of negative response to perceived threats to the blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in the interaction. So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved with feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective and graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person who's offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom line is that by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we may be shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high stakes situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability to present the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to the public. On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in our heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us. The truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. Sure, we want to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone else. The sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions of one person. But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're all amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception to a rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that we're as diverse as they are are those who know how to deconstruct society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough diversity in our population to realize that they can't judge all of us based on one person. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we lose sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your place is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, if that person, after being shown compassion and alternative ways of thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old patterns as soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows a lack of respect for everyone around them, including themselves. So if a person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! That person will either fall hard when they find out their parents/family members/significant other or what have you can't take care of them forever, and then they'll realize what needs to happen in due time, or they will get sick of the status quo and want to change it. And if people hold it against a decent blind person because they've met a person like that in the past, it's not worth it to try and make them feel any differently. They will either come around in time or they won't. Choice is the key word here. Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not hurting anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose out on a potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon as you meet someone who's worth your time, you forget about that other person real quick On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view that we get from the public in general. Most people who are sighted are not used to a blind person. You have to understand that one blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now reliable for what a person thinks about blind people. They are the ones setting an example. So if you have a blind person who smells bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or just do not have the proper skills, the outside person will make an assumtion and say that all blind people are like that. i'm not saying it's right for blind people to call out other blind people with a skills set that is lower then theirs, they're just calling them out because they are representing blind people. It puts a bad label on us blind people who do take care of ourselves, have the skills to be independent and succeed. like i said, i'm not saying it's right but I don't think us who do have the skills want to have a negative conotation. Not all blind people poke their eyes, rock, hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, do not clean their own clothes, or anything like that. So to be part of a group that's going to display such a view that is negative to the public, we fall right behind that. Am I making sense? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepow er 17%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind j ed i%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb %4 0g mail.com -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. - Robert Byrne -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. - Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb %40g mail.com -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. - Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 0gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From k7uij at panix.com Sat May 28 17:16:02 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 10:16:02 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: <4de12bc7.4a8ee50a.2901.501b@mx.google.com> References: <4de12bc7.4a8ee50a.2901.501b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000201cc1d5a$ec343b90$c49cb2b0$@panix.com> I know of no site that has everything gathered in one place. However, you could do worse than to read Dr. Floyd Matson's book, "Walking Alone and marching together" (available on the NFB website and via the NLS Web-braille site) and, if you'd wish to see the alternative point-of-view, James McGivern's "People of Vision: a History of the american Council of the Blind", also available from the NLS Web-braille and BARD sites. It might also behoove us all to reread or re-listen-to the NFB convention banquet speechdes of Drs. tenBroke, Jernigan and Maurer. I know that's a lot of reading but no one ever said Federationism was easy! (huge grin) Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Josh Gregory Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 10:07 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Is there a site with... the history of blind people and what they went through? I'm curious now, this is a good thread. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" wrote: Darian: What do you think African-americans would have said during the 1950's and 1960's had one of their number said he/she would rather date a Caucasian person because of the concern for two black persons dating? Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Jedi, Sure-let me see... We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to "visually impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person uses products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille compass, braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people who don't utilize these things seem lesser for not. I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman than a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of two blind people dating. Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I would like to think that it's huge to consider where each person is in their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am fine with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told that we are "wrong" for thinking like we do. Does that make sense? Respecgfully, Darian On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: Very good points. We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one member of a minority group address another member of that same group if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should in public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive image of the rest of that group to society? I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model that positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that probably is the healthiest way to approach this idea of perception-changing that we think about alot, Does that make sense? thoughts? On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: Excellent points. I'm going to add to that some. I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when they attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of such judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible audience for the blind person in question. This audience is made of both the blind and the sighted community and creates thoughts like "What will my blind friends and colleagues think of me if I react this or that way? What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will sighted bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose situation where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that limits problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also creates a greater likelihood of negative response to perceived threats to the blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in the interaction. So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved with feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective and graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person who's offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom line is that by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we may be shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high stakes situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability to present the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to the public. On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in our heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us. The truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. Sure, we want to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone else. The sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions of one person. But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're all amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception to a rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that we're as diverse as they are are those who know how to deconstruct society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough diversity in our population to realize that they can't judge all of us based on one person. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we lose sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your place is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, if that person, after being shown compassion and alternative ways of thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old patterns as soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows a lack of respect for everyone around them, including themselves. So if a person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! That person will either fall hard when they find out their parents/family members/significant other or what have you can't take care of them forever, and then they'll realize what needs to happen in due time, or they will get sick of the status quo and want to change it. And if people hold it against a decent blind person because they've met a person like that in the past, it's not worth it to try and make them feel any differently. They will either come around in time or they won't. Choice is the key word here. Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not hurting anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose out on a potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon as you meet someone who's worth your time, you forget about that other person real quick On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view that we get from the public in general. Most people who are sighted are not used to a blind person. You have to understand that one blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now reliable for what a person thinks about blind people. They are the ones setting an example. So if you have a blind person who smells bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or just do not have the proper skills, the outside person will make an assumtion and say that all blind people are like that. i'm not saying it's right for blind people to call out other blind people with a skills set that is lower then theirs, they're just calling them out because they are representing blind people. It puts a bad label on us blind people who do take care of ourselves, have the skills to be independent and succeed. like i said, i'm not saying it's right but I don't think us who do have the skills want to have a negative conotation. Not all blind people poke their eyes, rock, hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, do not clean their own clothes, or anything like that. So to be part of a group that's going to display such a view that is negative to the public, we fall right behind that. Am I making sense? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepow er 17%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind j ed i%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb %4 0g mail.com -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. - Robert Byrne -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. - Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb %40g mail.com -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. - Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 0gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat May 28 17:35:34 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 11:35:34 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: <000201cc1d5a$ec343b90$c49cb2b0$@panix.com> References: <4de12bc7.4a8ee50a.2901.501b@mx.google.com> <000201cc1d5a$ec343b90$c49cb2b0$@panix.com> Message-ID: Mike, In the African-american struggle for huma rights, there were/are lots of different philosophies and approaches taken by a lot of different people-you probably know more about that than me having lived through a lot of the craziness. Do you think more could've happened faster if...say, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X spent less time bickering and more time cooperating or, at the very least, ignoring each other? I'm not denying that both of them did a lot to better the condition of black people...but imagine what could've happened if the two of them didn't take so long to reconcile-or, if nothing else, if they didn't spend time attacking each others' philosophies and devoted that energy to their respective movements? Could that comparison be aplicable to us? Am I remiss when I say that we in NFB sometimes spend too much time attacking the philosophies of other blind people rather than advancing our own philosophy? Am I remiss in saying that many in the ACB spend more time trying to tear down the Federation instead of building up the Council? Why can't we, if nothing else, leave each other alone and spend all our time working on our own goals? Maybe we could take that comparison further, to incolude individual blind people who disagree with us. Ideally we should try to engage in constructive dialogue and find some sort of common ground with people who disagree and, for example, have next to no travel or daily living skills. After all, we hope they'll "see the light", so to speak, and become empowered with good training. But let's say they don't accept our philosophy...whether they're compitent blind people or not, let's say they want nothing to do with the Federation. I say first we try and learn whatever we can from them, no matter their skills and atitude (or lack thereof). Once we've learned something from them, even if it's as simple as "I need to have better cane skills" or "this guy has terrible hygiene-at least I know now why it's so important to take showers!", then I think we try and let them learn from us. That can either be by talking or by them looking at our example...if they chose to not accept our world view, there's no reason to get angry and defensive. There is still probably common ground somewhere and, even in the highly unlikely event you can't find any (which is probably due to you not looking hard enough), just ignore the person and move on. If we can't be friends, there's no reason to be enemies...live and let live, and all that jazz. Warmly, Kirt On 5/28/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > I know of no site that has everything gathered in one place. However, you > could do worse than to read Dr. Floyd Matson's book, "Walking Alone and > marching together" (available on the NFB website and via the NLS Web-braille > site) and, if you'd wish to see the alternative point-of-view, James > McGivern's "People of Vision: a History of the american Council of the > Blind", also available from the NLS Web-braille and BARD sites. > > It might also behoove us all to reread or re-listen-to the NFB convention > banquet speechdes of Drs. tenBroke, Jernigan and Maurer. > > I know that's a lot of reading but no one ever said Federationism was easy! > (huge grin) > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Josh Gregory > Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 10:07 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Is there a site with... the history of blind people and what > they went through? I'm curious now, this is a good thread. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Sat, 28 May 2011 09:52:47 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Although I was never subject to one, I can still remember when, > at late as > the 1960's, welfare workers conducted "night raids" with the help > of the > police wherein said workers would visit blind clients and go > through their > homes to make sure that nothing had been bought that would > indicate that the > clients had unreported income. This extended even to such items > as a new > dress. > > I echo Briley's sentiments that many today have no concept of > what went down > in the past. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Briley Pollard > Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:28 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > I think it is not always an appropriate comparison to say our > struggle for > civil rights isn't completely parallel with the black American > experience, > but we have struggled for civil rights. Go read some history on > how blind > people have been treated by families and institutions over the > years. Blind > children were targets for sexual assault in extremely high > numbers because > they were considered to be vulnerable. They were placed in > horrific living > conditions throughout history in institutions because families > believed that > blindness was equal to ineffectiveness, and that they'd never be > able to > succeed or help out their relatives. As a people group, we have > suffered > many indignities that I don't think the current generation of > blind people > even come close to realizing. > > Best, > Briley > On May 28, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Darian Smith wrote: > > Mike: > African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term > themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon > how > they were treated by whites up to that time. > It is curious that how african-americans were treated is > always > one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our > comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I > wonder, > were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully > protest > the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we > safely > make those comparisons? unless I am missing something (I > could be, > and it wouldn't be the first or last time I have), we have some > similarities with regards to civil rights, but largely our > histories > were quite different and the scars, deaths,risks were felt on > largely > different levels. > Just some thoughts on the matter,and I very much appreciate > the > question. > Respectfully, > Darian > > On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > Darian: > > What do you think African-americans would have said during the > 1950's and 1960's had one of their number said he/she would > rather > date a Caucasian person because of the concern for two black > persons > dating? > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Darian Smith > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in > others > > Jedi, > Sure-let me see... > We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with > situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For > example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to > "visually > impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person > uses > products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille > compass, > braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people > who > don't utilize these things seem lesser for not. > I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman > than > a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of two > blind people dating. > Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I > would > like to think that it's huge to consider where each person is > in > their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am > fine > with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are > accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told > that we > are "wrong" > for thinking like we do. > Does that make sense? > Respecgfully, > Darian > > > On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: > Very good points. > We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to > remember that there are other minorities out there. How does > one > member of a minority group address another member of that same > group > if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should > in > public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive > image > of the rest of that group to society? > I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with > it > varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it > upon > ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model > that > positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that > probably is > the healthiest way to approach this idea of > perception-changing > that we think about alot, Does that make sense? > thoughts? > > On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: > Excellent points. > > I'm going to add to that some. > > I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when > they attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness > or > discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of > such judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible > audience for the blind person in question. This audience is > made of > both the blind and the sighted community and creates thoughts > like > "What will my blind friends and colleagues think of me if I > react this > or that way? > What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will > sighted bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose > situation where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress > that > limits problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also > creates a greater likelihood of negative response to perceived > threats to the blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy > in the > interaction. > So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind > person > to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience > concept > boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved > with feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective > and graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person > who's offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom > line > is that by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we > may be shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high > stakes situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability > to > present the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to > the > public. > > On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it > in > our heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about > us. > The truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. > Sure, we > want to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone > else. The sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions > of one > person. > But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about > that > except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our > population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely > that > the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're > all > amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception > to > a rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that > we're as diverse as they are are those who know how to > deconstruct > society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough > diversity in our population to realize that they can't judge all > of > us based on one > person. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: > That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap > of > taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we > lose sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless > you're a > therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it > is > not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your > place is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously > said, > if that person, after being shown compassion and alternative > ways > of thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old > patterns as soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows > a > lack of respect for everyone around them, including themselves. > So > if a person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! > That person will either fall hard when they find out their > parents/family members/significant other or what have you can't > take care of them forever, and then they'll realize what needs > to > happen in due time, or they will get sick of the status quo and > want to change it. And if people hold it against a decent blind > person because they've met a person like that in the past, it's > not worth it to try and make them feel any differently. They > will > either come around in time or they > won't. Choice is the key word here. > Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not > hurting anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to > lose > out on a potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as > soon > as you meet someone who's worth your time, you forget about that > other person real quick > > On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: > I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view > that we get from the public in general. Most people who are > sighted are not used to a blind person. You have to understand > that one blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now > reliable for what a person thinks about blind people. They are > the ones setting an example. So if you have a blind person who > smells bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or just do not have the > proper skills, the outside person will make an assumtion and say > that all blind people are like that. i'm not saying it's right > for blind people to call out other blind people with a skills > set > that is lower then theirs, they're just calling them out because > they are representing blind people. It puts a bad label on us > blind people who do take care of ourselves, have the skills to > be > independent and succeed. like i said, i'm not saying it's right > but I don't think us who do have the skills want to have a > negative conotation. Not all blind people poke their eyes, > rock, > hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, do not clean their > own clothes, or anything like that. So to be part of a group > that's going to display such a view that is negative to the > public, > we fall right behind that. Am I making sense? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepow > er > 17%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind > j > ed > i%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. > Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb > %4 > 0g > mail.com > > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: > http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: > http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb > %40g > mail.com > > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: > http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 > 0gmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sat May 28 18:15:10 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 11:15:10 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: References: <4de12bc7.4a8ee50a.2901.501b@mx.google.com> <000201cc1d5a$ec343b90$c49cb2b0$@panix.com> Message-ID: Firstly, I feel like someone being beatin down because they are a federationest is no different than someone being beatin down because they were a black panther, so to me while valid, it's different in that it's a subsection of blind people, as the panthers were of black people I don't doubt that people are unaware of all of what went down that effected the blind americian expirience, as we are largely unaware of alot of the minority expiriencesinour country. Fact is that for the sake of this comparison, blacks faced constent threats on their lives, and even up until now they still do. I don't know how many blind people have to worry about the police stopping them because they "look like trouble". I don't write this to play "who has the worst life", rather to say that some could find fault in the comparison. For my part, I don't quite know if I agree with it at this time. Respectfully, Darian On 5/28/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Mike, > In the African-american struggle for huma rights, there were/are > lots of different philosophies and approaches taken by a lot of > different people-you probably know more about that than me having > lived through a lot of the craziness. Do you think more could've > happened faster if...say, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X spent less > time bickering and more time cooperating or, at the very least, > ignoring each other? I'm not denying that both of them did a lot to > better the condition of black people...but imagine what could've > happened if the two of them didn't take so long to reconcile-or, if > nothing else, if they didn't spend time attacking each others' > philosophies and devoted that energy to their respective movements? > Could that comparison be aplicable to us? Am I remiss when I say > that we in NFB sometimes spend too much time attacking the > philosophies of other blind people rather than advancing our own > philosophy? Am I remiss in saying that many in the ACB spend more > time trying to tear down the Federation instead of building up the > Council? Why can't we, if nothing else, leave each other alone and > spend all our time working on our own goals? > Maybe we could take that comparison further, to incolude individual > blind people who disagree with us. Ideally we should try to engage in > constructive dialogue and find some sort of common ground with people > who disagree and, for example, have next to no travel or daily living > skills. After all, we hope they'll "see the light", so to speak, and > become empowered with good training. But let's say they don't accept > our philosophy...whether they're compitent blind people or not, let's > say they want nothing to do with the Federation. I say first we try > and learn whatever we can from them, no matter their skills and > atitude (or lack thereof). Once we've learned something from them, > even if it's as simple as "I need to have better cane skills" or "this > guy has terrible hygiene-at least I know now why it's so important to > take showers!", then I think we try and let them learn from us. That > can either be by talking or by them looking at our example...if they > chose to not accept our world view, there's no reason to get angry and > defensive. There is still probably common ground somewhere and, even > in the highly unlikely event you can't find any (which is probably due > to you not looking hard enough), just ignore the person and move on. > If we can't be friends, there's no reason to be enemies...live and let > live, and all that jazz. > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/28/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> I know of no site that has everything gathered in one place. However, you >> could do worse than to read Dr. Floyd Matson's book, "Walking Alone and >> marching together" (available on the NFB website and via the NLS >> Web-braille >> site) and, if you'd wish to see the alternative point-of-view, James >> McGivern's "People of Vision: a History of the american Council of the >> Blind", also available from the NLS Web-braille and BARD sites. >> >> It might also behoove us all to reread or re-listen-to the NFB convention >> banquet speechdes of Drs. tenBroke, Jernigan and Maurer. >> >> I know that's a lot of reading but no one ever said Federationism was >> easy! >> (huge grin) >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Josh Gregory >> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 10:07 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >> >> Is there a site with... the history of blind people and what >> they went through? I'm curious now, this is a good thread. >> Josh >> >> sent from my Apex >> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Freeman" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Date sent: Sat, 28 May 2011 09:52:47 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >> >> Although I was never subject to one, I can still remember when, >> at late as >> the 1960's, welfare workers conducted "night raids" with the help >> of the >> police wherein said workers would visit blind clients and go >> through their >> homes to make sure that nothing had been bought that would >> indicate that the >> clients had unreported income. This extended even to such items >> as a new >> dress. >> >> I echo Briley's sentiments that many today have no concept of >> what went down >> in the past. >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Briley Pollard >> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:28 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >> >> I think it is not always an appropriate comparison to say our >> struggle for >> civil rights isn't completely parallel with the black American >> experience, >> but we have struggled for civil rights. Go read some history on >> how blind >> people have been treated by families and institutions over the >> years. Blind >> children were targets for sexual assault in extremely high >> numbers because >> they were considered to be vulnerable. They were placed in >> horrific living >> conditions throughout history in institutions because families >> believed that >> blindness was equal to ineffectiveness, and that they'd never be >> able to >> succeed or help out their relatives. As a people group, we have >> suffered >> many indignities that I don't think the current generation of >> blind people >> even come close to realizing. >> >> Best, >> Briley >> On May 28, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Darian Smith wrote: >> >> Mike: >> African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term >> themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon >> how >> they were treated by whites up to that time. >> It is curious that how african-americans were treated is >> always >> one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our >> comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I >> wonder, >> were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully >> protest >> the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we >> safely >> make those comparisons? unless I am missing something (I >> could be, >> and it wouldn't be the first or last time I have), we have some >> similarities with regards to civil rights, but largely our >> histories >> were quite different and the scars, deaths,risks were felt on >> largely >> different levels. >> Just some thoughts on the matter,and I very much appreciate >> the >> question. >> Respectfully, >> Darian >> >> On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> Darian: >> >> What do you think African-americans would have said during the >> 1950's and 1960's had one of their number said he/she would >> rather >> date a Caucasian person because of the concern for two black >> persons >> dating? >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Darian Smith >> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in >> others >> >> Jedi, >> Sure-let me see... >> We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with >> situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For >> example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to >> "visually >> impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person >> uses >> products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille >> compass, >> braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people >> who >> don't utilize these things seem lesser for not. >> I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman >> than >> a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of two >> blind people dating. >> Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I >> would >> like to think that it's huge to consider where each person is >> in >> their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am >> fine >> with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are >> accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told >> that we >> are "wrong" >> for thinking like we do. >> Does that make sense? >> Respecgfully, >> Darian >> >> >> On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> Very good points. >> We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to >> remember that there are other minorities out there. How does >> one >> member of a minority group address another member of that same >> group >> if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should >> in >> public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive >> image >> of the rest of that group to society? >> I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with >> it >> varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it >> upon >> ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model >> that >> positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that >> probably is >> the healthiest way to approach this idea of >> perception-changing >> that we think about alot, Does that make sense? >> thoughts? >> >> On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: >> Excellent points. >> >> I'm going to add to that some. >> >> I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when >> they attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness >> or >> discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of >> such judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible >> audience for the blind person in question. This audience is >> made of >> both the blind and the sighted community and creates thoughts >> like >> "What will my blind friends and colleagues think of me if I >> react this >> or that way? >> What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will >> sighted bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose >> situation where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress >> that >> limits problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also >> creates a greater likelihood of negative response to perceived >> threats to the blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy >> in the >> interaction. >> So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind >> person >> to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience >> concept >> boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved >> with feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective >> and graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person >> who's offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom >> line >> is that by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we >> may be shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high >> stakes situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability >> to >> present the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to >> the >> public. >> >> On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it >> in >> our heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about >> us. >> The truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. >> Sure, we >> want to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone >> else. The sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions >> of one >> person. >> But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about >> that >> except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our >> population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely >> that >> the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're >> all >> amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception >> to >> a rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that >> we're as diverse as they are are those who know how to >> deconstruct >> society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough >> diversity in our population to realize that they can't judge all >> of >> us based on one >> person. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Original message: >> That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap >> of >> taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we >> lose sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless >> you're a >> therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it >> is >> not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your >> place is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously >> said, >> if that person, after being shown compassion and alternative >> ways >> of thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old >> patterns as soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows >> a >> lack of respect for everyone around them, including themselves. >> So >> if a person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! >> That person will either fall hard when they find out their >> parents/family members/significant other or what have you can't >> take care of them forever, and then they'll realize what needs >> to >> happen in due time, or they will get sick of the status quo and >> want to change it. And if people hold it against a decent blind >> person because they've met a person like that in the past, it's >> not worth it to try and make them feel any differently. They >> will >> either come around in time or they >> won't. Choice is the key word here. >> Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not >> hurting anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to >> lose >> out on a potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as >> soon >> as you meet someone who's worth your time, you forget about that >> other person real quick >> >> On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: >> I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view >> that we get from the public in general. Most people who are >> sighted are not used to a blind person. You have to understand >> that one blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now >> reliable for what a person thinks about blind people. They are >> the ones setting an example. So if you have a blind person who >> smells bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or just do not have the >> proper skills, the outside person will make an assumtion and say >> that all blind people are like that. i'm not saying it's right >> for blind people to call out other blind people with a skills >> set >> that is lower then theirs, they're just calling them out because >> they are representing blind people. It puts a bad label on us >> blind people who do take care of ourselves, have the skills to >> be >> independent and succeed. like i said, i'm not saying it's right >> but I don't think us who do have the skills want to have a >> negative conotation. Not all blind people poke their eyes, >> rock, >> hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, do not clean their >> own clothes, or anything like that. So to be part of a group >> that's going to display such a view that is negative to the >> public, >> we fall right behind that. Am I making sense? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >> for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepow >> er >> 17%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >> for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >> j >> ed >> i%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >> Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >> for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >> %4 >> 0g >> mail.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> - Robert Byrne >> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> - Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >> %40g >> mail.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> - Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 >> 0gmai >> l.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >> 2%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat May 28 18:24:38 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 12:24:38 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: References: <4de12bc7.4a8ee50a.2901.501b@mx.google.com> <000201cc1d5a$ec343b90$c49cb2b0$@panix.com> Message-ID: Darian, I don't see anything wrong with using the comparison to prove a point-I do, however, see a lot wrong when people think our situations were exactly the same. To my knowledge, no leader in the blind civil rights movement has been assassinated. I'm not afraid I'll get linched by an angry mob when I go to Washington Seminar. I'm not worried I'll be grabbed in the middle of the night by the KKK and beaten to death because I'm a Federationist or, for that matter, because I'm blind. I'm not saying there aren't similarities; indeed, comparing the two situations can give us valuable insights sometimes. But whenever we start saying "we're just like these people because they went through so much abuse," I'm afraid we're starting to go down the slippery slope of entitlement and demanding superior access. Just my thoughts, Kirt On 5/28/11, Darian Smith wrote: > Firstly, > I feel like someone being beatin down because they are a > federationest is no different than someone being beatin down because > they were a black panther, so to me while valid, it's different in > that it's a subsection of blind people, as the panthers were of > black people > I don't doubt that people are unaware of all of what went down that > effected the blind americian expirience, as we are largely unaware of > alot of the minority expiriencesinour country. Fact is that for the > sake of this comparison, blacks faced constent threats on their > lives, and even up until now they still do. I don't know how many > blind people have to worry about the police stopping them because > they "look like trouble". I don't write this to play "who has the > worst life", rather to say that some could find fault in the > comparison. For my part, I don't quite know if I agree with it at > this time. > Respectfully, > Darian > > On 5/28/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Mike, >> In the African-american struggle for huma rights, there were/are >> lots of different philosophies and approaches taken by a lot of >> different people-you probably know more about that than me having >> lived through a lot of the craziness. Do you think more could've >> happened faster if...say, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X spent less >> time bickering and more time cooperating or, at the very least, >> ignoring each other? I'm not denying that both of them did a lot to >> better the condition of black people...but imagine what could've >> happened if the two of them didn't take so long to reconcile-or, if >> nothing else, if they didn't spend time attacking each others' >> philosophies and devoted that energy to their respective movements? >> Could that comparison be aplicable to us? Am I remiss when I say >> that we in NFB sometimes spend too much time attacking the >> philosophies of other blind people rather than advancing our own >> philosophy? Am I remiss in saying that many in the ACB spend more >> time trying to tear down the Federation instead of building up the >> Council? Why can't we, if nothing else, leave each other alone and >> spend all our time working on our own goals? >> Maybe we could take that comparison further, to incolude individual >> blind people who disagree with us. Ideally we should try to engage in >> constructive dialogue and find some sort of common ground with people >> who disagree and, for example, have next to no travel or daily living >> skills. After all, we hope they'll "see the light", so to speak, and >> become empowered with good training. But let's say they don't accept >> our philosophy...whether they're compitent blind people or not, let's >> say they want nothing to do with the Federation. I say first we try >> and learn whatever we can from them, no matter their skills and >> atitude (or lack thereof). Once we've learned something from them, >> even if it's as simple as "I need to have better cane skills" or "this >> guy has terrible hygiene-at least I know now why it's so important to >> take showers!", then I think we try and let them learn from us. That >> can either be by talking or by them looking at our example...if they >> chose to not accept our world view, there's no reason to get angry and >> defensive. There is still probably common ground somewhere and, even >> in the highly unlikely event you can't find any (which is probably due >> to you not looking hard enough), just ignore the person and move on. >> If we can't be friends, there's no reason to be enemies...live and let >> live, and all that jazz. >> Warmly, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/28/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> I know of no site that has everything gathered in one place. However, you >>> could do worse than to read Dr. Floyd Matson's book, "Walking Alone and >>> marching together" (available on the NFB website and via the NLS >>> Web-braille >>> site) and, if you'd wish to see the alternative point-of-view, James >>> McGivern's "People of Vision: a History of the american Council of the >>> Blind", also available from the NLS Web-braille and BARD sites. >>> >>> It might also behoove us all to reread or re-listen-to the NFB convention >>> banquet speechdes of Drs. tenBroke, Jernigan and Maurer. >>> >>> I know that's a lot of reading but no one ever said Federationism was >>> easy! >>> (huge grin) >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Josh Gregory >>> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 10:07 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >>> >>> Is there a site with... the history of blind people and what >>> they went through? I'm curious now, this is a good thread. >>> Josh >>> >>> sent from my Apex >>> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Mike Freeman" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >> Date sent: Sat, 28 May 2011 09:52:47 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >>> >>> Although I was never subject to one, I can still remember when, >>> at late as >>> the 1960's, welfare workers conducted "night raids" with the help >>> of the >>> police wherein said workers would visit blind clients and go >>> through their >>> homes to make sure that nothing had been bought that would >>> indicate that the >>> clients had unreported income. This extended even to such items >>> as a new >>> dress. >>> >>> I echo Briley's sentiments that many today have no concept of >>> what went down >>> in the past. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>> Of Briley Pollard >>> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:28 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >>> >>> I think it is not always an appropriate comparison to say our >>> struggle for >>> civil rights isn't completely parallel with the black American >>> experience, >>> but we have struggled for civil rights. Go read some history on >>> how blind >>> people have been treated by families and institutions over the >>> years. Blind >>> children were targets for sexual assault in extremely high >>> numbers because >>> they were considered to be vulnerable. They were placed in >>> horrific living >>> conditions throughout history in institutions because families >>> believed that >>> blindness was equal to ineffectiveness, and that they'd never be >>> able to >>> succeed or help out their relatives. As a people group, we have >>> suffered >>> many indignities that I don't think the current generation of >>> blind people >>> even come close to realizing. >>> >>> Best, >>> Briley >>> On May 28, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Darian Smith wrote: >>> >>> Mike: >>> African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term >>> themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon >>> how >>> they were treated by whites up to that time. >>> It is curious that how african-americans were treated is >>> always >>> one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our >>> comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I >>> wonder, >>> were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully >>> protest >>> the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we >>> safely >>> make those comparisons? unless I am missing something (I >>> could be, >>> and it wouldn't be the first or last time I have), we have some >>> similarities with regards to civil rights, but largely our >>> histories >>> were quite different and the scars, deaths,risks were felt on >>> largely >>> different levels. >>> Just some thoughts on the matter,and I very much appreciate >>> the >>> question. >>> Respectfully, >>> Darian >>> >>> On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> Darian: >>> >>> What do you think African-americans would have said during the >>> 1950's and 1960's had one of their number said he/she would >>> rather >>> date a Caucasian person because of the concern for two black >>> persons >>> dating? >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Darian Smith >>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in >>> others >>> >>> Jedi, >>> Sure-let me see... >>> We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with >>> situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For >>> example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to >>> "visually >>> impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person >>> uses >>> products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille >>> compass, >>> braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people >>> who >>> don't utilize these things seem lesser for not. >>> I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman >>> than >>> a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of two >>> blind people dating. >>> Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I >>> would >>> like to think that it's huge to consider where each person is >>> in >>> their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am >>> fine >>> with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are >>> accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told >>> that we >>> are "wrong" >>> for thinking like we do. >>> Does that make sense? >>> Respecgfully, >>> Darian >>> >>> >>> On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>> Very good points. >>> We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to >>> remember that there are other minorities out there. How does >>> one >>> member of a minority group address another member of that same >>> group >>> if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should >>> in >>> public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive >>> image >>> of the rest of that group to society? >>> I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with >>> it >>> varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it >>> upon >>> ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model >>> that >>> positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that >>> probably is >>> the healthiest way to approach this idea of >>> perception-changing >>> that we think about alot, Does that make sense? >>> thoughts? >>> >>> On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: >>> Excellent points. >>> >>> I'm going to add to that some. >>> >>> I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when >>> they attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness >>> or >>> discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of >>> such judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible >>> audience for the blind person in question. This audience is >>> made of >>> both the blind and the sighted community and creates thoughts >>> like >>> "What will my blind friends and colleagues think of me if I >>> react this >>> or that way? >>> What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will >>> sighted bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose >>> situation where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress >>> that >>> limits problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also >>> creates a greater likelihood of negative response to perceived >>> threats to the blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy >>> in the >>> interaction. >>> So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind >>> person >>> to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience >>> concept >>> boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved >>> with feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective >>> and graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person >>> who's offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom >>> line >>> is that by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we >>> may be shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high >>> stakes situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability >>> to >>> present the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to >>> the >>> public. >>> >>> On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it >>> in >>> our heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about >>> us. >>> The truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. >>> Sure, we >>> want to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone >>> else. The sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions >>> of one >>> person. >>> But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about >>> that >>> except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our >>> population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely >>> that >>> the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're >>> all >>> amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception >>> to >>> a rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that >>> we're as diverse as they are are those who know how to >>> deconstruct >>> society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough >>> diversity in our population to realize that they can't judge all >>> of >>> us based on one >>> person. >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> >>> Original message: >>> That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap >>> of >>> taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we >>> lose sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless >>> you're a >>> therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it >>> is >>> not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your >>> place is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously >>> said, >>> if that person, after being shown compassion and alternative >>> ways >>> of thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old >>> patterns as soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows >>> a >>> lack of respect for everyone around them, including themselves. >>> So >>> if a person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! >>> That person will either fall hard when they find out their >>> parents/family members/significant other or what have you can't >>> take care of them forever, and then they'll realize what needs >>> to >>> happen in due time, or they will get sick of the status quo and >>> want to change it. And if people hold it against a decent blind >>> person because they've met a person like that in the past, it's >>> not worth it to try and make them feel any differently. They >>> will >>> either come around in time or they >>> won't. Choice is the key word here. >>> Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not >>> hurting anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to >>> lose >>> out on a potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as >>> soon >>> as you meet someone who's worth your time, you forget about that >>> other person real quick >>> >>> On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: >>> I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view >>> that we get from the public in general. Most people who are >>> sighted are not used to a blind person. You have to understand >>> that one blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now >>> reliable for what a person thinks about blind people. They are >>> the ones setting an example. So if you have a blind person who >>> smells bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or just do not have the >>> proper skills, the outside person will make an assumtion and say >>> that all blind people are like that. i'm not saying it's right >>> for blind people to call out other blind people with a skills >>> set >>> that is lower then theirs, they're just calling them out because >>> they are representing blind people. It puts a bad label on us >>> blind people who do take care of ourselves, have the skills to >>> be >>> independent and succeed. like i said, i'm not saying it's right >>> but I don't think us who do have the skills want to have a >>> negative conotation. Not all blind people poke their eyes, >>> rock, >>> hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, do not clean their >>> own clothes, or anything like that. So to be part of a group >>> that's going to display such a view that is negative to the >>> public, >>> we fall right behind that. Am I making sense? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepow >>> er >>> 17%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >>> j >>> ed >>> i%40samobile.net >>> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >>> Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>> %4 >>> 0g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> - Robert Byrne >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> - Robert Byrne >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>> anix >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>> %40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> - Robert Byrne >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 >>> 0gmai >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>> anix.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >>> 2%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sat May 28 18:32:22 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 11:32:22 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: References: <4de12bc7.4a8ee50a.2901.501b@mx.google.com> <000201cc1d5a$ec343b90$c49cb2b0$@panix.com> Message-ID: Which is my point- you just did a much better job of making it! *smile* On 5/28/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Darian, > I don't see anything wrong with using the comparison to prove a > point-I do, however, see a lot wrong when people think our situations > were exactly the same. To my knowledge, no leader in the blind civil > rights movement has been assassinated. I'm not afraid I'll get > linched by an angry mob when I go to Washington Seminar. I'm not > worried I'll be grabbed in the middle of the night by the KKK and > beaten to death because I'm a Federationist or, for that matter, > because I'm blind. > I'm not saying there aren't similarities; indeed, comparing the two > situations can give us valuable insights sometimes. But whenever we > start saying "we're just like these people because they went through > so much abuse," I'm afraid we're starting to go down the slippery > slope of entitlement and demanding superior access. > Just my thoughts, > Kirt > > On 5/28/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> Firstly, >> I feel like someone being beatin down because they are a >> federationest is no different than someone being beatin down because >> they were a black panther, so to me while valid, it's different in >> that it's a subsection of blind people, as the panthers were of >> black people >> I don't doubt that people are unaware of all of what went down that >> effected the blind americian expirience, as we are largely unaware of >> alot of the minority expiriencesinour country. Fact is that for the >> sake of this comparison, blacks faced constent threats on their >> lives, and even up until now they still do. I don't know how many >> blind people have to worry about the police stopping them because >> they "look like trouble". I don't write this to play "who has the >> worst life", rather to say that some could find fault in the >> comparison. For my part, I don't quite know if I agree with it at >> this time. >> Respectfully, >> Darian >> >> On 5/28/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Mike, >>> In the African-american struggle for huma rights, there were/are >>> lots of different philosophies and approaches taken by a lot of >>> different people-you probably know more about that than me having >>> lived through a lot of the craziness. Do you think more could've >>> happened faster if...say, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X spent less >>> time bickering and more time cooperating or, at the very least, >>> ignoring each other? I'm not denying that both of them did a lot to >>> better the condition of black people...but imagine what could've >>> happened if the two of them didn't take so long to reconcile-or, if >>> nothing else, if they didn't spend time attacking each others' >>> philosophies and devoted that energy to their respective movements? >>> Could that comparison be aplicable to us? Am I remiss when I say >>> that we in NFB sometimes spend too much time attacking the >>> philosophies of other blind people rather than advancing our own >>> philosophy? Am I remiss in saying that many in the ACB spend more >>> time trying to tear down the Federation instead of building up the >>> Council? Why can't we, if nothing else, leave each other alone and >>> spend all our time working on our own goals? >>> Maybe we could take that comparison further, to incolude individual >>> blind people who disagree with us. Ideally we should try to engage in >>> constructive dialogue and find some sort of common ground with people >>> who disagree and, for example, have next to no travel or daily living >>> skills. After all, we hope they'll "see the light", so to speak, and >>> become empowered with good training. But let's say they don't accept >>> our philosophy...whether they're compitent blind people or not, let's >>> say they want nothing to do with the Federation. I say first we try >>> and learn whatever we can from them, no matter their skills and >>> atitude (or lack thereof). Once we've learned something from them, >>> even if it's as simple as "I need to have better cane skills" or "this >>> guy has terrible hygiene-at least I know now why it's so important to >>> take showers!", then I think we try and let them learn from us. That >>> can either be by talking or by them looking at our example...if they >>> chose to not accept our world view, there's no reason to get angry and >>> defensive. There is still probably common ground somewhere and, even >>> in the highly unlikely event you can't find any (which is probably due >>> to you not looking hard enough), just ignore the person and move on. >>> If we can't be friends, there's no reason to be enemies...live and let >>> live, and all that jazz. >>> Warmly, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/28/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>> I know of no site that has everything gathered in one place. However, >>>> you >>>> could do worse than to read Dr. Floyd Matson's book, "Walking Alone and >>>> marching together" (available on the NFB website and via the NLS >>>> Web-braille >>>> site) and, if you'd wish to see the alternative point-of-view, James >>>> McGivern's "People of Vision: a History of the american Council of the >>>> Blind", also available from the NLS Web-braille and BARD sites. >>>> >>>> It might also behoove us all to reread or re-listen-to the NFB >>>> convention >>>> banquet speechdes of Drs. tenBroke, Jernigan and Maurer. >>>> >>>> I know that's a lot of reading but no one ever said Federationism was >>>> easy! >>>> (huge grin) >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Josh Gregory >>>> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 10:07 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >>>> >>>> Is there a site with... the history of blind people and what >>>> they went through? I'm curious now, this is a good thread. >>>> Josh >>>> >>>> sent from my Apex >>>> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>> Date sent: Sat, 28 May 2011 09:52:47 -0700 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >>>> >>>> Although I was never subject to one, I can still remember when, >>>> at late as >>>> the 1960's, welfare workers conducted "night raids" with the help >>>> of the >>>> police wherein said workers would visit blind clients and go >>>> through their >>>> homes to make sure that nothing had been bought that would >>>> indicate that the >>>> clients had unreported income. This extended even to such items >>>> as a new >>>> dress. >>>> >>>> I echo Briley's sentiments that many today have no concept of >>>> what went down >>>> in the past. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>>> Of Briley Pollard >>>> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:28 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >>>> >>>> I think it is not always an appropriate comparison to say our >>>> struggle for >>>> civil rights isn't completely parallel with the black American >>>> experience, >>>> but we have struggled for civil rights. Go read some history on >>>> how blind >>>> people have been treated by families and institutions over the >>>> years. Blind >>>> children were targets for sexual assault in extremely high >>>> numbers because >>>> they were considered to be vulnerable. They were placed in >>>> horrific living >>>> conditions throughout history in institutions because families >>>> believed that >>>> blindness was equal to ineffectiveness, and that they'd never be >>>> able to >>>> succeed or help out their relatives. As a people group, we have >>>> suffered >>>> many indignities that I don't think the current generation of >>>> blind people >>>> even come close to realizing. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Briley >>>> On May 28, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> >>>> Mike: >>>> African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term >>>> themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon >>>> how >>>> they were treated by whites up to that time. >>>> It is curious that how african-americans were treated is >>>> always >>>> one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our >>>> comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I >>>> wonder, >>>> were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully >>>> protest >>>> the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we >>>> safely >>>> make those comparisons? unless I am missing something (I >>>> could be, >>>> and it wouldn't be the first or last time I have), we have some >>>> similarities with regards to civil rights, but largely our >>>> histories >>>> were quite different and the scars, deaths,risks were felt on >>>> largely >>>> different levels. >>>> Just some thoughts on the matter,and I very much appreciate >>>> the >>>> question. >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Darian >>>> >>>> On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>> Darian: >>>> >>>> What do you think African-americans would have said during the >>>> 1950's and 1960's had one of their number said he/she would >>>> rather >>>> date a Caucasian person because of the concern for two black >>>> persons >>>> dating? >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of Darian Smith >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in >>>> others >>>> >>>> Jedi, >>>> Sure-let me see... >>>> We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with >>>> situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For >>>> example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to >>>> "visually >>>> impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person >>>> uses >>>> products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille >>>> compass, >>>> braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people >>>> who >>>> don't utilize these things seem lesser for not. >>>> I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman >>>> than >>>> a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of two >>>> blind people dating. >>>> Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I >>>> would >>>> like to think that it's huge to consider where each person is >>>> in >>>> their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am >>>> fine >>>> with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are >>>> accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told >>>> that we >>>> are "wrong" >>>> for thinking like we do. >>>> Does that make sense? >>>> Respecgfully, >>>> Darian >>>> >>>> >>>> On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> Very good points. >>>> We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to >>>> remember that there are other minorities out there. How does >>>> one >>>> member of a minority group address another member of that same >>>> group >>>> if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should >>>> in >>>> public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive >>>> image >>>> of the rest of that group to society? >>>> I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with >>>> it >>>> varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it >>>> upon >>>> ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model >>>> that >>>> positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that >>>> probably is >>>> the healthiest way to approach this idea of >>>> perception-changing >>>> that we think about alot, Does that make sense? >>>> thoughts? >>>> >>>> On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: >>>> Excellent points. >>>> >>>> I'm going to add to that some. >>>> >>>> I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when >>>> they attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness >>>> or >>>> discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of >>>> such judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible >>>> audience for the blind person in question. This audience is >>>> made of >>>> both the blind and the sighted community and creates thoughts >>>> like >>>> "What will my blind friends and colleagues think of me if I >>>> react this >>>> or that way? >>>> What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will >>>> sighted bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose >>>> situation where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress >>>> that >>>> limits problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also >>>> creates a greater likelihood of negative response to perceived >>>> threats to the blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy >>>> in the >>>> interaction. >>>> So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind >>>> person >>>> to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience >>>> concept >>>> boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved >>>> with feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective >>>> and graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person >>>> who's offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom >>>> line >>>> is that by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we >>>> may be shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high >>>> stakes situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability >>>> to >>>> present the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to >>>> the >>>> public. >>>> >>>> On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it >>>> in >>>> our heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about >>>> us. >>>> The truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. >>>> Sure, we >>>> want to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone >>>> else. The sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions >>>> of one >>>> person. >>>> But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about >>>> that >>>> except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our >>>> population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely >>>> that >>>> the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're >>>> all >>>> amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception >>>> to >>>> a rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that >>>> we're as diverse as they are are those who know how to >>>> deconstruct >>>> society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough >>>> diversity in our population to realize that they can't judge all >>>> of >>>> us based on one >>>> person. >>>> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi >>>> >>>> Original message: >>>> That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap >>>> of >>>> taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we >>>> lose sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless >>>> you're a >>>> therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it >>>> is >>>> not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your >>>> place is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously >>>> said, >>>> if that person, after being shown compassion and alternative >>>> ways >>>> of thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old >>>> patterns as soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows >>>> a >>>> lack of respect for everyone around them, including themselves. >>>> So >>>> if a person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! >>>> That person will either fall hard when they find out their >>>> parents/family members/significant other or what have you can't >>>> take care of them forever, and then they'll realize what needs >>>> to >>>> happen in due time, or they will get sick of the status quo and >>>> want to change it. And if people hold it against a decent blind >>>> person because they've met a person like that in the past, it's >>>> not worth it to try and make them feel any differently. They >>>> will >>>> either come around in time or they >>>> won't. Choice is the key word here. >>>> Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not >>>> hurting anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to >>>> lose >>>> out on a potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as >>>> soon >>>> as you meet someone who's worth your time, you forget about that >>>> other person real quick >>>> >>>> On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: >>>> I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view >>>> that we get from the public in general. Most people who are >>>> sighted are not used to a blind person. You have to understand >>>> that one blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now >>>> reliable for what a person thinks about blind people. They are >>>> the ones setting an example. So if you have a blind person who >>>> smells bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or just do not have the >>>> proper skills, the outside person will make an assumtion and say >>>> that all blind people are like that. i'm not saying it's right >>>> for blind people to call out other blind people with a skills >>>> set >>>> that is lower then theirs, they're just calling them out because >>>> they are representing blind people. It puts a bad label on us >>>> blind people who do take care of ourselves, have the skills to >>>> be >>>> independent and succeed. like i said, i'm not saying it's right >>>> but I don't think us who do have the skills want to have a >>>> negative conotation. Not all blind people poke their eyes, >>>> rock, >>>> hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, do not clean their >>>> own clothes, or anything like that. So to be part of a group >>>> that's going to display such a view that is negative to the >>>> public, >>>> we fall right behind that. Am I making sense? >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepow >>>> er >>>> 17%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >>>> j >>>> ed >>>> i%40samobile.net >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >>>> Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>>> %4 >>>> 0g >>>> mail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Darian Smith >>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>> >>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>> >>>> - Robert Byrne >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Darian Smith >>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>> >>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>> >>>> - Robert Byrne >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>>> anix >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>>> %40g >>>> mail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Darian Smith >>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>> >>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>> >>>> - Robert Byrne >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 >>>> 0gmai >>>> l.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>>> anix.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >>>> 2%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> — Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From k7uij at panix.com Sat May 28 18:35:49 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 11:35:49 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: References: <4de12bc7.4a8ee50a.2901.501b@mx.google.com> <000201cc1d5a$ec343b90$c49cb2b0$@panix.com> Message-ID: <000301cc1d66$119a8230$34cf8690$@panix.com> Kirt: I doubt there's a person in or out of the Federation that would say "the blind are just like African-americans". Methinks we're making a mountain out of a molehill here. What we've actually said was and is that we, the blind, are a minority in a social context as are also racial minorities, women, gays and lesbians and so on. We suffer many types of discrimination similar in many respects to the forms of discrimination these other mainorities suffer. That's quite different than saying we're just like other minorities. To some, this is splitting hairs but remember that our founding president was a lawyer! (grin) Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 11:25 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Darian, I don't see anything wrong with using the comparison to prove a point-I do, however, see a lot wrong when people think our situations were exactly the same. To my knowledge, no leader in the blind civil rights movement has been assassinated. I'm not afraid I'll get linched by an angry mob when I go to Washington Seminar. I'm not worried I'll be grabbed in the middle of the night by the KKK and beaten to death because I'm a Federationist or, for that matter, because I'm blind. I'm not saying there aren't similarities; indeed, comparing the two situations can give us valuable insights sometimes. But whenever we start saying "we're just like these people because they went through so much abuse," I'm afraid we're starting to go down the slippery slope of entitlement and demanding superior access. Just my thoughts, Kirt On 5/28/11, Darian Smith wrote: > Firstly, > I feel like someone being beatin down because they are a > federationest is no different than someone being beatin down because > they were a black panther, so to me while valid, it's different in > that it's a subsection of blind people, as the panthers were of > black people I don't doubt that people are unaware of all of what > went down that effected the blind americian expirience, as we are > largely unaware of alot of the minority expiriencesinour country. > Fact is that for the > sake of this comparison, blacks faced constent threats on their > lives, and even up until now they still do. I don't know how many > blind people have to worry about the police stopping them because > they "look like trouble". I don't write this to play "who has the > worst life", rather to say that some could find fault in the > comparison. For my part, I don't quite know if I agree with it at > this time. > Respectfully, > Darian > > On 5/28/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Mike, >> In the African-american struggle for huma rights, there were/are >> lots of different philosophies and approaches taken by a lot of >> different people-you probably know more about that than me having >> lived through a lot of the craziness. Do you think more could've >> happened faster if...say, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X spent less >> time bickering and more time cooperating or, at the very least, >> ignoring each other? I'm not denying that both of them did a lot to >> better the condition of black people...but imagine what could've >> happened if the two of them didn't take so long to reconcile-or, if >> nothing else, if they didn't spend time attacking each others' >> philosophies and devoted that energy to their respective movements? >> Could that comparison be aplicable to us? Am I remiss when I say >> that we in NFB sometimes spend too much time attacking the >> philosophies of other blind people rather than advancing our own >> philosophy? Am I remiss in saying that many in the ACB spend more >> time trying to tear down the Federation instead of building up the >> Council? Why can't we, if nothing else, leave each other alone and >> spend all our time working on our own goals? >> Maybe we could take that comparison further, to incolude individual >> blind people who disagree with us. Ideally we should try to engage >> in constructive dialogue and find some sort of common ground with >> people who disagree and, for example, have next to no travel or daily >> living skills. After all, we hope they'll "see the light", so to >> speak, and become empowered with good training. But let's say they >> don't accept our philosophy...whether they're compitent blind people >> or not, let's say they want nothing to do with the Federation. I say >> first we try and learn whatever we can from them, no matter their >> skills and atitude (or lack thereof). Once we've learned something >> from them, even if it's as simple as "I need to have better cane >> skills" or "this guy has terrible hygiene-at least I know now why >> it's so important to take showers!", then I think we try and let them >> learn from us. That can either be by talking or by them looking at >> our example...if they chose to not accept our world view, there's no >> reason to get angry and defensive. There is still probably common >> ground somewhere and, even in the highly unlikely event you can't >> find any (which is probably due to you not looking hard enough), just ignore the person and move on. >> If we can't be friends, there's no reason to be enemies...live and >> let live, and all that jazz. >> Warmly, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/28/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> I know of no site that has everything gathered in one place. >>> However, you could do worse than to read Dr. Floyd Matson's book, >>> "Walking Alone and marching together" (available on the NFB website >>> and via the NLS Web-braille >>> site) and, if you'd wish to see the alternative point-of-view, James >>> McGivern's "People of Vision: a History of the american Council of >>> the Blind", also available from the NLS Web-braille and BARD sites. >>> >>> It might also behoove us all to reread or re-listen-to the NFB >>> convention banquet speechdes of Drs. tenBroke, Jernigan and Maurer. >>> >>> I know that's a lot of reading but no one ever said Federationism >>> was easy! >>> (huge grin) >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On Behalf Of Josh Gregory >>> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 10:07 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >>> >>> Is there a site with... the history of blind people and what they >>> went through? I'm curious now, this is a good thread. >>> Josh >>> >>> sent from my Apex >>> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Mike Freeman" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >> Date sent: Sat, 28 May 2011 09:52:47 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >>> >>> Although I was never subject to one, I can still remember when, at >>> late as the 1960's, welfare workers conducted "night raids" with the >>> help of the police wherein said workers would visit blind clients >>> and go through their homes to make sure that nothing had been bought >>> that would indicate that the clients had unreported income. This >>> extended even to such items as a new dress. >>> >>> I echo Briley's sentiments that many today have no concept of what >>> went down in the past. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Briley Pollard >>> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:28 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >>> >>> I think it is not always an appropriate comparison to say our >>> struggle for civil rights isn't completely parallel with the black >>> American experience, but we have struggled for civil rights. Go >>> read some history on how blind people have been treated by families >>> and institutions over the years. Blind children were targets for >>> sexual assault in extremely high numbers because they were >>> considered to be vulnerable. They were placed in horrific living >>> conditions throughout history in institutions because families >>> believed that blindness was equal to ineffectiveness, and that >>> they'd never be able to succeed or help out their relatives. As a >>> people group, we have suffered many indignities that I don't think >>> the current generation of blind people even come close to realizing. >>> >>> Best, >>> Briley >>> On May 28, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Darian Smith wrote: >>> >>> Mike: >>> African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term >>> themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon how >>> they were treated by whites up to that time. >>> It is curious that how african-americans were treated is >>> always >>> one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our >>> comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder, >>> were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully >>> protest the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? >>> Can we safely make those comparisons? unless I am missing >>> something (I could be, and it wouldn't be the first or last time I >>> have), we have some similarities with regards to civil rights, but >>> largely our histories were quite different and the scars, >>> deaths,risks were felt on largely different levels. >>> Just some thoughts on the matter,and I very much appreciate the >>> question. >>> Respectfully, >>> Darian >>> >>> On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> Darian: >>> >>> What do you think African-americans would have said during the >>> 1950's and 1960's had one of their number said he/she would rather >>> date a Caucasian person because of the concern for two black persons >>> dating? >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith >>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >>> >>> Jedi, >>> Sure-let me see... >>> We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with >>> situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For >>> example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to "visually >>> impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person uses >>> products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille compass, >>> braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people who >>> don't utilize these things seem lesser for not. >>> I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman >>> than a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of >>> two blind people dating. >>> Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I >>> would like to think that it's huge to consider where each person >>> is in >>> their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am >>> fine >>> with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are >>> accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told >>> that we are "wrong" >>> for thinking like we do. >>> Does that make sense? >>> Respecgfully, >>> Darian >>> >>> >>> On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>> Very good points. >>> We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to >>> remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one >>> member of a minority group address another member of that same group >>> if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should in >>> public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive image >>> of the rest of that group to society? >>> I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it >>> varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon >>> ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model that >>> positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that probably is >>> the healthiest way to approach this idea of perception-changing >>> that we think about alot, Does that make sense? >>> thoughts? >>> >>> On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: >>> Excellent points. >>> >>> I'm going to add to that some. >>> >>> I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when >>> they attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or >>> discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of >>> such judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible >>> audience for the blind person in question. This audience is made of >>> both the blind and the sighted community and creates thoughts like >>> "What will my blind friends and colleagues think of me if I react >>> this or that way? >>> What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will >>> sighted bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose >>> situation where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that >>> limits problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also >>> creates a greater likelihood of negative response to perceived >>> threats to the blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in >>> the interaction. >>> So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person >>> to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept >>> boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved >>> with feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective >>> and graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person >>> who's offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom line >>> is that by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we >>> may be shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high >>> stakes situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability to >>> present the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to the >>> public. >>> >>> On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in >>> our heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us. >>> The truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. >>> Sure, we >>> want to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone >>> else. The sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions of >>> one person. >>> But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that >>> except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our >>> population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that >>> the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're all >>> amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception to >>> a rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that >>> we're as diverse as they are are those who know how to deconstruct >>> society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough >>> diversity in our population to realize that they can't judge all of >>> us based on one person. >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> >>> Original message: >>> That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of >>> taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we >>> lose sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a >>> therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is >>> not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your >>> place is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, >>> if that person, after being shown compassion and alternative ways >>> of thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old >>> patterns as soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows a >>> lack of respect for everyone around them, including themselves. >>> So >>> if a person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! >>> That person will either fall hard when they find out their >>> parents/family members/significant other or what have you can't >>> take care of them forever, and then they'll realize what needs to >>> happen in due time, or they will get sick of the status quo and >>> want to change it. And if people hold it against a decent blind >>> person because they've met a person like that in the past, it's not >>> worth it to try and make them feel any differently. They will >>> either come around in time or they won't. Choice is the key word >>> here. >>> Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not >>> hurting anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose >>> out on a potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon >>> as you meet someone who's worth your time, you forget about that >>> other person real quick >>> >>> On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: >>> I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view >>> that we get from the public in general. Most people who are >>> sighted are not used to a blind person. You have to understand >>> that one blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now >>> reliable for what a person thinks about blind people. They are the >>> ones setting an example. So if you have a blind person who smells >>> bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or just do not have the proper skills, >>> the outside person will make an assumtion and say that all blind >>> people are like that. i'm not saying it's right for blind people >>> to call out other blind people with a skills set that is lower then >>> theirs, they're just calling them out because they are representing >>> blind people. It puts a bad label on us blind people who do take >>> care of ourselves, have the skills to be independent and succeed. >>> like i said, i'm not saying it's right but I don't think us who do >>> have the skills want to have a negative conotation. Not all blind >>> people poke their eyes, rock, hop, twitch,bump into everything, >>> smell bad, do not clean their own clothes, or anything like that. >>> So to be part of a group that's going to display such a view that >>> is negative to the public, we fall right behind that. Am I making >>> sense? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepow >>> er >>> 17%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >>> j >>> ed >>> i%40samobile.net >>> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >>> Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>> %4 >>> 0g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> - Robert Byrne >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> - Robert Byrne >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>> anix >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>> %40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> - Robert Byrne >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 >>> 0gmai >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>> anix.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >>> 2%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40pani >>> x.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydu >>> de%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >> mail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: > http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude > %40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat May 28 19:08:36 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 13:08:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: <000301cc1d66$119a8230$34cf8690$@panix.com> References: <4de12bc7.4a8ee50a.2901.501b@mx.google.com> <000201cc1d5a$ec343b90$c49cb2b0$@panix.com> <000301cc1d66$119a8230$34cf8690$@panix.com> Message-ID: Mike, Fair enough. I was exhagerating a little. But I think we can take the comparison too far if we aren't careful. On 5/28/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > Kirt: > > I doubt there's a person in or out of the Federation that would say "the > blind are just like African-americans". Methinks we're making a mountain out > of a molehill here. What we've actually said was and is that we, the blind, > are a minority in a social context as are also racial minorities, women, > gays and lesbians and so on. We suffer many types of discrimination similar > in many respects to the forms of discrimination these other mainorities > suffer. That's quite different than saying we're just like other minorities. > To some, this is splitting hairs but remember that our founding president > was a lawyer! (grin) > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 11:25 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Darian, > I don't see anything wrong with using the comparison to prove a point-I > do, however, see a lot wrong when people think our situations were exactly > the same. To my knowledge, no leader in the blind civil rights movement has > been assassinated. I'm not afraid I'll get linched by an angry mob when I > go to Washington Seminar. I'm not worried I'll be grabbed in the middle of > the night by the KKK and beaten to death because I'm a Federationist or, for > that matter, because I'm blind. > I'm not saying there aren't similarities; indeed, comparing the two > situations can give us valuable insights sometimes. But whenever we start > saying "we're just like these people because they went through so much > abuse," I'm afraid we're starting to go down the slippery slope of > entitlement and demanding superior access. > Just my thoughts, > Kirt > > On 5/28/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> Firstly, >> I feel like someone being beatin down because they are a >> federationest is no different than someone being beatin down because >> they were a black panther, so to me while valid, it's different in >> that it's a subsection of blind people, as the panthers were of >> black people I don't doubt that people are unaware of all of what >> went down that effected the blind americian expirience, as we are >> largely unaware of alot of the minority expiriencesinour country. >> Fact is that for the >> sake of this comparison, blacks faced constent threats on their >> lives, and even up until now they still do. I don't know how many >> blind people have to worry about the police stopping them because >> they "look like trouble". I don't write this to play "who has the >> worst life", rather to say that some could find fault in the >> comparison. For my part, I don't quite know if I agree with it at >> this time. >> Respectfully, >> Darian >> >> On 5/28/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Mike, >>> In the African-american struggle for huma rights, there were/are >>> lots of different philosophies and approaches taken by a lot of >>> different people-you probably know more about that than me having >>> lived through a lot of the craziness. Do you think more could've >>> happened faster if...say, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X spent less >>> time bickering and more time cooperating or, at the very least, >>> ignoring each other? I'm not denying that both of them did a lot to >>> better the condition of black people...but imagine what could've >>> happened if the two of them didn't take so long to reconcile-or, if >>> nothing else, if they didn't spend time attacking each others' >>> philosophies and devoted that energy to their respective movements? >>> Could that comparison be aplicable to us? Am I remiss when I say >>> that we in NFB sometimes spend too much time attacking the >>> philosophies of other blind people rather than advancing our own >>> philosophy? Am I remiss in saying that many in the ACB spend more >>> time trying to tear down the Federation instead of building up the >>> Council? Why can't we, if nothing else, leave each other alone and >>> spend all our time working on our own goals? >>> Maybe we could take that comparison further, to incolude individual >>> blind people who disagree with us. Ideally we should try to engage >>> in constructive dialogue and find some sort of common ground with >>> people who disagree and, for example, have next to no travel or daily >>> living skills. After all, we hope they'll "see the light", so to >>> speak, and become empowered with good training. But let's say they >>> don't accept our philosophy...whether they're compitent blind people >>> or not, let's say they want nothing to do with the Federation. I say >>> first we try and learn whatever we can from them, no matter their >>> skills and atitude (or lack thereof). Once we've learned something >>> from them, even if it's as simple as "I need to have better cane >>> skills" or "this guy has terrible hygiene-at least I know now why >>> it's so important to take showers!", then I think we try and let them >>> learn from us. That can either be by talking or by them looking at >>> our example...if they chose to not accept our world view, there's no >>> reason to get angry and defensive. There is still probably common >>> ground somewhere and, even in the highly unlikely event you can't >>> find any (which is probably due to you not looking hard enough), just > ignore the person and move on. >>> If we can't be friends, there's no reason to be enemies...live and >>> let live, and all that jazz. >>> Warmly, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 5/28/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>> I know of no site that has everything gathered in one place. >>>> However, you could do worse than to read Dr. Floyd Matson's book, >>>> "Walking Alone and marching together" (available on the NFB website >>>> and via the NLS Web-braille >>>> site) and, if you'd wish to see the alternative point-of-view, James >>>> McGivern's "People of Vision: a History of the american Council of >>>> the Blind", also available from the NLS Web-braille and BARD sites. >>>> >>>> It might also behoove us all to reread or re-listen-to the NFB >>>> convention banquet speechdes of Drs. tenBroke, Jernigan and Maurer. >>>> >>>> I know that's a lot of reading but no one ever said Federationism >>>> was easy! >>>> (huge grin) >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>> On Behalf Of Josh Gregory >>>> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 10:07 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >>>> >>>> Is there a site with... the history of blind people and what they >>>> went through? I'm curious now, this is a good thread. >>>> Josh >>>> >>>> sent from my Apex >>>> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Mike Freeman" >>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>> Date sent: Sat, 28 May 2011 09:52:47 -0700 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >>>> >>>> Although I was never subject to one, I can still remember when, at >>>> late as the 1960's, welfare workers conducted "night raids" with the >>>> help of the police wherein said workers would visit blind clients >>>> and go through their homes to make sure that nothing had been bought >>>> that would indicate that the clients had unreported income. This >>>> extended even to such items as a new dress. >>>> >>>> I echo Briley's sentiments that many today have no concept of what >>>> went down in the past. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Briley Pollard >>>> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:28 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >>>> >>>> I think it is not always an appropriate comparison to say our >>>> struggle for civil rights isn't completely parallel with the black >>>> American experience, but we have struggled for civil rights. Go >>>> read some history on how blind people have been treated by families >>>> and institutions over the years. Blind children were targets for >>>> sexual assault in extremely high numbers because they were >>>> considered to be vulnerable. They were placed in horrific living >>>> conditions throughout history in institutions because families >>>> believed that blindness was equal to ineffectiveness, and that >>>> they'd never be able to succeed or help out their relatives. As a >>>> people group, we have suffered many indignities that I don't think >>>> the current generation of blind people even come close to realizing. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Briley >>>> On May 28, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> >>>> Mike: >>>> African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term >>>> themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon how >>>> they were treated by whites up to that time. >>>> It is curious that how african-americans were treated is >>>> always >>>> one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our >>>> comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder, >>>> were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully >>>> protest the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? >>>> Can we safely make those comparisons? unless I am missing >>>> something (I could be, and it wouldn't be the first or last time I >>>> have), we have some similarities with regards to civil rights, but >>>> largely our histories were quite different and the scars, >>>> deaths,risks were felt on largely different levels. >>>> Just some thoughts on the matter,and I very much appreciate the >>>> question. >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Darian >>>> >>>> On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>>> Darian: >>>> >>>> What do you think African-americans would have said during the >>>> 1950's and 1960's had one of their number said he/she would rather >>>> date a Caucasian person because of the concern for two black persons >>>> dating? >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >>>> >>>> Jedi, >>>> Sure-let me see... >>>> We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with >>>> situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For >>>> example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to "visually >>>> impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person uses >>>> products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille compass, >>>> braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people who >>>> don't utilize these things seem lesser for not. >>>> I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman >>>> than a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of >>>> two blind people dating. >>>> Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I >>>> would like to think that it's huge to consider where each person >>>> is in >>>> their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am >>>> fine >>>> with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are >>>> accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told >>>> that we are "wrong" >>>> for thinking like we do. >>>> Does that make sense? >>>> Respecgfully, >>>> Darian >>>> >>>> >>>> On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> Very good points. >>>> We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to >>>> remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one >>>> member of a minority group address another member of that same group >>>> if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should in >>>> public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive image >>>> of the rest of that group to society? >>>> I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it >>>> varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon >>>> ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model that >>>> positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that probably is >>>> the healthiest way to approach this idea of perception-changing >>>> that we think about alot, Does that make sense? >>>> thoughts? >>>> >>>> On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: >>>> Excellent points. >>>> >>>> I'm going to add to that some. >>>> >>>> I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when >>>> they attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or >>>> discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of >>>> such judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible >>>> audience for the blind person in question. This audience is made of >>>> both the blind and the sighted community and creates thoughts like >>>> "What will my blind friends and colleagues think of me if I react >>>> this or that way? >>>> What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will >>>> sighted bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose >>>> situation where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that >>>> limits problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also >>>> creates a greater likelihood of negative response to perceived >>>> threats to the blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in >>>> the interaction. >>>> So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person >>>> to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept >>>> boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved >>>> with feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective >>>> and graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person >>>> who's offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom line >>>> is that by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we >>>> may be shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high >>>> stakes situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability to >>>> present the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to the >>>> public. >>>> >>>> On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in >>>> our heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us. >>>> The truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. >>>> Sure, we >>>> want to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone >>>> else. The sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions of >>>> one person. >>>> But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that >>>> except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our >>>> population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that >>>> the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're all >>>> amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception to >>>> a rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that >>>> we're as diverse as they are are those who know how to deconstruct >>>> society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough >>>> diversity in our population to realize that they can't judge all of >>>> us based on one person. >>>> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi >>>> >>>> Original message: >>>> That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of >>>> taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we >>>> lose sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a >>>> therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is >>>> not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your >>>> place is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, >>>> if that person, after being shown compassion and alternative ways >>>> of thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old >>>> patterns as soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows a >>>> lack of respect for everyone around them, including themselves. >>>> So >>>> if a person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! >>>> That person will either fall hard when they find out their >>>> parents/family members/significant other or what have you can't >>>> take care of them forever, and then they'll realize what needs to >>>> happen in due time, or they will get sick of the status quo and >>>> want to change it. And if people hold it against a decent blind >>>> person because they've met a person like that in the past, it's not >>>> worth it to try and make them feel any differently. They will >>>> either come around in time or they won't. Choice is the key word >>>> here. >>>> Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not >>>> hurting anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose >>>> out on a potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon >>>> as you meet someone who's worth your time, you forget about that >>>> other person real quick >>>> >>>> On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: >>>> I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view >>>> that we get from the public in general. Most people who are >>>> sighted are not used to a blind person. You have to understand >>>> that one blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now >>>> reliable for what a person thinks about blind people. They are the >>>> ones setting an example. So if you have a blind person who smells >>>> bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or just do not have the proper skills, >>>> the outside person will make an assumtion and say that all blind >>>> people are like that. i'm not saying it's right for blind people >>>> to call out other blind people with a skills set that is lower then >>>> theirs, they're just calling them out because they are representing >>>> blind people. It puts a bad label on us blind people who do take >>>> care of ourselves, have the skills to be independent and succeed. >>>> like i said, i'm not saying it's right but I don't think us who do >>>> have the skills want to have a negative conotation. Not all blind >>>> people poke their eyes, rock, hop, twitch,bump into everything, >>>> smell bad, do not clean their own clothes, or anything like that. >>>> So to be part of a group that's going to display such a view that >>>> is negative to the public, we fall right behind that. Am I making >>>> sense? >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepow >>>> er >>>> 17%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >>>> j >>>> ed >>>> i%40samobile.net >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >>>> Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>>> %4 >>>> 0g >>>> mail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Darian Smith >>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>> >>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>> >>>> - Robert Byrne >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Darian Smith >>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>> >>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>> >>>> - Robert Byrne >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>>> anix >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>>> %40g >>>> mail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Darian Smith >>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>>> >>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>>> >>>> - Robert Byrne >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 >>>> 0gmai >>>> l.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>>> anix.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >>>> 2%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40pani >>>> x.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydu >>>> de%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >>> mail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> - Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude >> %40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From k7uij at panix.com Sat May 28 19:23:58 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 12:23:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: References: <4de12bc7.4a8ee50a.2901.501b@mx.google.com> <000201cc1d5a$ec343b90$c49cb2b0$@panix.com> Message-ID: <000501cc1d6c$cbd2e010$6378a030$@panix.com> Kirt: I agree that, ideally at least, we should live and let live. In fact, as a practical matter, that is what is done here in the state of Washington: the NFB of Washington and the Washington Council of the Blind work together when we can -- often rather closely -- but we agree to disagree on some matters and as long as no one stirs the pot, we tend to stay out of each other's way on matters on which we disagree, if only because neither organization has sufficient political clout to prevail easily when we work at cross-purposes. But you can bet your life that if WCB actively pushed something that was totally against NFB policy, we of NFB would try to defeat WCB's effort. In like fashion, I am certain that WCB would do the same viz. our efforts if they directly contradicted some ACB policy that WCB members held dear. That isn't really a problem in that Mitch Pomerantz, President of ACB, himself said that ACB stands for no organized philosophy and ACB doesn't enforce unified policy directives on its affiliates. In other words, the problem hasn't arisen here -- at least not in the past twenty-five years. And the threats to blindness agencies in this state have been of sufficient magnitude that we (NFBW and WCB) were on the same side, even if we love some the agencies a bit less than do members of WCB; there was no alternative. Having said this, I don't believe that the lack of effectiveness in the black civil rights movement of the late 1960's was due to fragmented voices within that movement. Rather, I think it was due in some measure to martin Luther King Jr.'s scattering his shots -- coming out against the Vietnam War and for anti-poverty initiatives, for example, instead of keeping his "eye on the prize" as the PBS history of the civil rights movement is called. I think there was room enough for many voices in the civil rights movement although I confess that many WASPs such as I were turned off big-time by Stoakley Carmichael, H. Rap Brown, bobby Seal, Eldrige Cleaver and other persons of like mind. I think the comparison by some of our detractors of NFB to a religion is much overblown. However, I think the comparison is valid to this extent: if one truly applied your "live and let live" and "preach by example" philosophy -- quite admirable in the abstract -- to religion, there would be no missionaries, no jihad, no outreach ministries, and the like. Put another way, it's human nature to try to reach out to convince those with whom we disagree or those whom we would convert. "gospel" means "good news", after all. Does this mean that we should look down upon blind people who do not have the skills of blindness? Of course not. They, like we, are "Within the Grace of God" as tenBroek's speech is entitled. Does this mean that there are not alternative ways to look at the problems of blindness? Again, of course not. But let us remember that we of NFB are out to do nothing less than to change society -- to obliterate the stereotype of the "helpless blind person" and the discriminatory treatment, blighted hopes and missed opportunities that flow from this misbegotten stereotype. And in the United States, change is effected by banding together in associations of like mind to advocate for those policies we believe in. This is not an undertaking of passivity. For better or worse, advocacy involves, to some extent at least, preaching. Of course this does not mean that we should be intolerant or maintain that there are no other viewpoints. But it *also* doesn't mean that we refrain from passionately advocating for what we believe in. that's the way things get done in this country. How this all plays out at a personal level isn't always easy to fathom. As I've said before, no one ever said being a Federationist was easy. But I submit that *not* saying anything -- even if only words of encouragement -- when we find injustice, erroneous stereotypes and persons selling themselves short -- is contrary to what we have pledged ourselves to accomplish. WE should never be obnoxious or boorish. But saying nothing is itself making a statement. What this all amounts to is espousal of the Serenity Prayer: "O god: give me the strength to change the things I can, the patience to accept the things I cannot and the wisdom to discern the difference.". Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 10:36 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Mike, In the African-american struggle for huma rights, there were/are lots of different philosophies and approaches taken by a lot of different people-you probably know more about that than me having lived through a lot of the craziness. Do you think more could've happened faster if...say, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X spent less time bickering and more time cooperating or, at the very least, ignoring each other? I'm not denying that both of them did a lot to better the condition of black people...but imagine what could've happened if the two of them didn't take so long to reconcile-or, if nothing else, if they didn't spend time attacking each others' philosophies and devoted that energy to their respective movements? Could that comparison be aplicable to us? Am I remiss when I say that we in NFB sometimes spend too much time attacking the philosophies of other blind people rather than advancing our own philosophy? Am I remiss in saying that many in the ACB spend more time trying to tear down the Federation instead of building up the Council? Why can't we, if nothing else, leave each other alone and spend all our time working on our own goals? Maybe we could take that comparison further, to incolude individual blind people who disagree with us. Ideally we should try to engage in constructive dialogue and find some sort of common ground with people who disagree and, for example, have next to no travel or daily living skills. After all, we hope they'll "see the light", so to speak, and become empowered with good training. But let's say they don't accept our philosophy...whether they're compitent blind people or not, let's say they want nothing to do with the Federation. I say first we try and learn whatever we can from them, no matter their skills and atitude (or lack thereof). Once we've learned something from them, even if it's as simple as "I need to have better cane skills" or "this guy has terrible hygiene-at least I know now why it's so important to take showers!", then I think we try and let them learn from us. That can either be by talking or by them looking at our example...if they chose to not accept our world view, there's no reason to get angry and defensive. There is still probably common ground somewhere and, even in the highly unlikely event you can't find any (which is probably due to you not looking hard enough), just ignore the person and move on. If we can't be friends, there's no reason to be enemies...live and let live, and all that jazz. Warmly, Kirt On 5/28/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > I know of no site that has everything gathered in one place. However, > you could do worse than to read Dr. Floyd Matson's book, "Walking > Alone and marching together" (available on the NFB website and via the > NLS Web-braille > site) and, if you'd wish to see the alternative point-of-view, James > McGivern's "People of Vision: a History of the american Council of the > Blind", also available from the NLS Web-braille and BARD sites. > > It might also behoove us all to reread or re-listen-to the NFB > convention banquet speechdes of Drs. tenBroke, Jernigan and Maurer. > > I know that's a lot of reading but no one ever said Federationism was easy! > (huge grin) > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Josh Gregory > Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 10:07 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Is there a site with... the history of blind people and what they > went through? I'm curious now, this is a good thread. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Sat, 28 May 2011 09:52:47 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Although I was never subject to one, I can still remember when, at > late as the 1960's, welfare workers conducted "night raids" with the > help of the police wherein said workers would visit blind clients and > go through their homes to make sure that nothing had been bought that > would indicate that the clients had unreported income. This extended > even to such items as a new dress. > > I echo Briley's sentiments that many today have no concept of what > went down in the past. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Briley Pollard > Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:28 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > I think it is not always an appropriate comparison to say our struggle > for civil rights isn't completely parallel with the black American > experience, but we have struggled for civil rights. Go read some > history on how blind people have been treated by families and > institutions over the years. Blind children were targets for sexual > assault in extremely high numbers because they were considered to be > vulnerable. They were placed in horrific living conditions throughout > history in institutions because families believed that blindness was > equal to ineffectiveness, and that they'd never be able to succeed or > help out their relatives. As a people group, we have suffered many > indignities that I don't think the current generation of blind people > even come close to realizing. > > Best, > Briley > On May 28, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Darian Smith wrote: > > Mike: > African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term > themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon how > they were treated by whites up to that time. > It is curious that how african-americans were treated is > always > one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our > comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder, > were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully protest > the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we safely > make those comparisons? unless I am missing something (I could be, > and it wouldn't be the first or last time I have), we have some > similarities with regards to civil rights, but largely our histories > were quite different and the scars, deaths,risks were felt on largely > different levels. > Just some thoughts on the matter,and I very much appreciate the > question. > Respectfully, > Darian > > On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > Darian: > > What do you think African-americans would have said during the > 1950's and 1960's had one of their number said he/she would rather > date a Caucasian person because of the concern for two black persons > dating? > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Darian Smith > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Jedi, > Sure-let me see... > We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with > situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For > example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to "visually > impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person uses > products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille compass, > braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people who > don't utilize these things seem lesser for not. > I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman than > a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of two > blind people dating. > Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I would > like to think that it's huge to consider where each person is in > their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am > fine > with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are > accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told that > we are "wrong" > for thinking like we do. > Does that make sense? > Respecgfully, > Darian > > > On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: > Very good points. > We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to > remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one > member of a minority group address another member of that same group > if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should in > public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive image > of the rest of that group to society? > I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it > varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon > ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model that > positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that probably is > the healthiest way to approach this idea of perception-changing > that we think about alot, Does that make sense? > thoughts? > > On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: > Excellent points. > > I'm going to add to that some. > > I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when they > attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or > discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of such > judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible audience for > the blind person in question. This audience is made of both the > blind and the sighted community and creates thoughts like "What will > my blind friends and colleagues think of me if I react this or that > way? > What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will sighted > bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose situation > where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that limits > problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also creates a > greater likelihood of negative response to perceived threats to the > blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in the interaction. > So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person > to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept > boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved with > feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective and > graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person who's > offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom line is that > by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we may be > shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high stakes > situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability to present > the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to the public. > > On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in > our heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us. > The truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. > Sure, we > want to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone > else. The sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions of one > person. > But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that > except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our > population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that > the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're all > amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception to a > rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that we're > as diverse as they are are those who know how to deconstruct > society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough diversity > in our population to realize that they can't judge all of us based on > one person. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: > That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of > taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we lose > sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a > therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is > not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your place > is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, if that > person, after being shown compassion and alternative ways of > thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old patterns as > soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows a lack of respect > for everyone around them, including themselves. > So > if a person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! > That person will either fall hard when they find out their > parents/family members/significant other or what have you can't take > care of them forever, and then they'll realize what needs to happen > in due time, or they will get sick of the status quo and want to > change it. And if people hold it against a decent blind person > because they've met a person like that in the past, it's not worth it > to try and make them feel any differently. They will either come > around in time or they won't. Choice is the key word here. > Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not hurting > anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose out on a > potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon as you meet > someone who's worth your time, you forget about that other person > real quick > > On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: > I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view > that we get from the public in general. Most people who are sighted > are not used to a blind person. You have to understand that one > blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now reliable for > what a person thinks about blind people. They are the ones setting > an example. So if you have a blind person who smells bad, rocks, > pokes their eyes or just do not have the proper skills, the outside > person will make an assumtion and say that all blind people are like > that. i'm not saying it's right for blind people to call out other > blind people with a skills set that is lower then theirs, they're > just calling them out because they are representing blind people. It > puts a bad label on us blind people who do take care of ourselves, > have the skills to be independent and succeed. like i said, i'm not > saying it's right but I don't think us who do have the skills want to > have a negative conotation. Not all blind people poke their eyes, > rock, hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, do not clean their > own clothes, or anything like that. So to be part of a group that's > going to display such a view that is negative to the public, we fall > right behind that. Am I making sense? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepow > er > 17%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind > j > ed > i%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. > Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb > %4 > 0g > mail.com > > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: > http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: > http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb > %40g > mail.com > > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: > http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 > 0gmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat May 28 20:09:41 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 14:09:41 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: <000501cc1d6c$cbd2e010$6378a030$@panix.com> References: <4de12bc7.4a8ee50a.2901.501b@mx.google.com> <000201cc1d5a$ec343b90$c49cb2b0$@panix.com> <000501cc1d6c$cbd2e010$6378a030$@panix.com> Message-ID: Mike, That makes a lot of sense...I find myself agreeing with you. Mostly. The only thing I'd say is there's a difference between constructive preaching and destructive preaching. It's good, even necessary, to spread our philosophy. Just like my church sends out missionaries by the thousands to spread what we believe is the gospel, millions of Christians around the world get involved with outreach ministries and procelyting, and so forth. As you say, that's human nature and when people try and build up their own philosophy by spreading the message to others, I say it's a beautiful thing. The problem is destructive preaching. So when a Mormon missionary deliberately attacks another church, when a Christian minister decides to burn the Qu'ran instead of talking about Christ, or when a Federationist goes out of his way to smear the Council instead of strengthening the Federation. I get that there are times the Federaion and Council are in conflict because it's what our respective philosophies demand. (even if the ACB doesn't have a national philosophy, strictly speaking) But in that conflict, when it happens, it critical that we stand by our own message rather than going out of our way to destroy theirs. America's a free market of ideas-strengthening our own position will serve us better than weakening anyone else's. Of course, you know how that all translates in to the political realm and I suspect it doesn't always translate well. But I think, especially on a personal level, we live our philosophy and we share it. That doesn't mean we make an effort to call them out or make them feel like their beliefs are wrong. If their beliefs are wrong, better for them to realize it in time if they're the kind of person that will...if they aren't, why not let it rest and try to get along? t the veeat, say godbye and avoid an unpleasant confrontation if you know the other person won't bend. I recognize that philosophy doesn't always work when dealing with other organizations but, when dealing with individuals, I don't see why it can't. Isn't it better to live a life as a respectable blind person, answer questions as they're presented, maybe talk a little about the Federation if it comes up and let them decide what they want? If they accept it, great! If not, that's ok too. I know plenty of respectable blind people outside the Federation-our way isn't the only ay for people to become independent and empowered. Maybe another way is honestly better for someone else. And, if they don't want that independence and empowerment after it's been offered kindly and respectfully, isn't it better just to drop the subject and try to be friends? Who knows,maybe they'd come around eventually. An angry debate certainly wouldn't help that happen. In closing, I'd like to share an experience that kept me out of the NFB for a long time, even though it didn't happen to me. My parents found out I was blind a w months after I was born. Naturally those first few years were really difficult for them, I can't imagine what that's like for a parent. Anyways my mom decided she wanted to be an O&M instructor, so she went to school in Arizona. While there, she was introduced to the Federation and went to a meeting. The way she told me the story, a blind woman approached her and said "I'm going to tell you something important. Your son is blind. You are not. So you'll never be able to understand him as much as we can." Had that first introduction to the Federation been more respectful, I suspect I'd be a lifetime member. As it stands now, my parents are still a little on guard around the Federation (although they certainly support my involvement), and they themselves are not Federationists. I often wonder how much more involved they would be had that first introduction gone just a little bit differently. Warmly, Kirt On 5/28/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > Kirt: > > I agree that, ideally at least, we should live and let live. In fact, as a > practical matter, that is what is done here in the state of Washington: the > NFB of Washington and the Washington Council of the Blind work together when > we can -- often rather closely -- but we agree to disagree on some matters > and as long as no one stirs the pot, we tend to stay out of each other's way > on matters on which we disagree, if only because neither organization has > sufficient political clout to prevail easily when we work at cross-purposes. > But you can bet your life that if WCB actively pushed something that was > totally against NFB policy, we of NFB would try to defeat WCB's effort. In > like fashion, I am certain that WCB would do the same viz. our efforts if > they directly contradicted some ACB policy that WCB members held dear. That > isn't really a problem in that Mitch Pomerantz, President of ACB, himself > said that ACB stands for no organized philosophy and ACB doesn't enforce > unified policy directives on its affiliates. In other words, the problem > hasn't arisen here -- at least not in the past twenty-five years. And the > threats to blindness agencies in this state have been of sufficient > magnitude that we (NFBW and WCB) were on the same side, even if we love some > the agencies a bit less than do members of WCB; there was no alternative. > > Having said this, I don't believe that the lack of effectiveness in the > black civil rights movement of the late 1960's was due to fragmented voices > within that movement. Rather, I think it was due in some measure to martin > Luther King Jr.'s scattering his shots -- coming out against the Vietnam War > and for anti-poverty initiatives, for example, instead of keeping his "eye > on the prize" as the PBS history of the civil rights movement is called. I > think there was room enough for many voices in the civil rights movement > although I confess that many WASPs such as I were turned off big-time by > Stoakley Carmichael, H. Rap Brown, bobby Seal, Eldrige Cleaver and other > persons of like mind. > > I think the comparison by some of our detractors of NFB to a religion is > much overblown. However, I think the comparison is valid to this extent: if > one truly applied your "live and let live" and "preach by example" > philosophy -- quite admirable in the abstract -- to religion, there would be > no missionaries, no jihad, no outreach ministries, and the like. Put another > way, it's human nature to try to reach out to convince those with whom we > disagree or those whom we would convert. "gospel" means "good news", after > all. > > Does this mean that we should look down upon blind people who do not have > the skills of blindness? Of course not. They, like we, are "Within the Grace > of God" as tenBroek's speech is entitled. Does this mean that there are not > alternative ways to look at the problems of blindness? Again, of course not. > But let us remember that we of NFB are out to do nothing less than to change > society -- to obliterate the stereotype of the "helpless blind person" and > the discriminatory treatment, blighted hopes and missed opportunities that > flow from this misbegotten stereotype. And in the United States, change is > effected by banding together in associations of like mind to advocate for > those policies we believe in. This is not an undertaking of passivity. For > better or worse, advocacy involves, to some extent at least, preaching. Of > course this does not mean that we should be intolerant or maintain that > there are no other viewpoints. But it *also* doesn't mean that we refrain > from passionately advocating for what we believe in. that's the way things > get done in this country. > > How this all plays out at a personal level isn't always easy to fathom. As > I've said before, no one ever said being a Federationist was easy. But I > submit that *not* saying anything -- even if only words of encouragement -- > when we find injustice, erroneous stereotypes and persons selling themselves > short -- is contrary to what we have pledged ourselves to accomplish. > > WE should never be obnoxious or boorish. But saying nothing is itself making > a statement. > > What this all amounts to is espousal of the Serenity Prayer: "O god: give me > the strength to change the things I can, the patience to accept the things I > cannot and the wisdom to discern the difference.". > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 10:36 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Mike, > In the African-american struggle for huma rights, there were/are lots of > different philosophies and approaches taken by a lot of different people-you > probably know more about that than me having lived through a lot of the > craziness. Do you think more could've happened faster if...say, Martin > Luther King and Malcolm X spent less time bickering and more time > cooperating or, at the very least, ignoring each other? I'm not denying > that both of them did a lot to better the condition of black people...but > imagine what could've happened if the two of them didn't take so long to > reconcile-or, if nothing else, if they didn't spend time attacking each > others' > philosophies and devoted that energy to their respective movements? > Could that comparison be aplicable to us? Am I remiss when I say that we > in NFB sometimes spend too much time attacking the philosophies of other > blind people rather than advancing our own philosophy? Am I remiss in > saying that many in the ACB spend more time trying to tear down the > Federation instead of building up the Council? Why can't we, if nothing > else, leave each other alone and spend all our time working on our own > goals? > Maybe we could take that comparison further, to incolude individual blind > people who disagree with us. Ideally we should try to engage in > constructive dialogue and find some sort of common ground with people who > disagree and, for example, have next to no travel or daily living skills. > After all, we hope they'll "see the light", so to speak, and become > empowered with good training. But let's say they don't accept our > philosophy...whether they're compitent blind people or not, let's say they > want nothing to do with the Federation. I say first we try and learn > whatever we can from them, no matter their skills and atitude (or lack > thereof). Once we've learned something from them, even if it's as simple as > "I need to have better cane skills" or "this guy has terrible hygiene-at > least I know now why it's so important to take showers!", then I think we > try and let them learn from us. That can either be by talking or by them > looking at our example...if they chose to not accept our world view, there's > no reason to get angry and defensive. There is still probably common ground > somewhere and, even in the highly unlikely event you can't find any (which > is probably due to you not looking hard enough), just ignore the person and > move on. > If we can't be friends, there's no reason to be enemies...live and let live, > and all that jazz. > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/28/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> I know of no site that has everything gathered in one place. However, >> you could do worse than to read Dr. Floyd Matson's book, "Walking >> Alone and marching together" (available on the NFB website and via the >> NLS Web-braille >> site) and, if you'd wish to see the alternative point-of-view, James >> McGivern's "People of Vision: a History of the american Council of the >> Blind", also available from the NLS Web-braille and BARD sites. >> >> It might also behoove us all to reread or re-listen-to the NFB >> convention banquet speechdes of Drs. tenBroke, Jernigan and Maurer. >> >> I know that's a lot of reading but no one ever said Federationism was > easy! >> (huge grin) >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Josh Gregory >> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 10:07 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >> >> Is there a site with... the history of blind people and what they >> went through? I'm curious now, this is a good thread. >> Josh >> >> sent from my Apex >> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Freeman" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Date sent: Sat, 28 May 2011 09:52:47 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >> >> Although I was never subject to one, I can still remember when, at >> late as the 1960's, welfare workers conducted "night raids" with the >> help of the police wherein said workers would visit blind clients and >> go through their homes to make sure that nothing had been bought that >> would indicate that the clients had unreported income. This extended >> even to such items as a new dress. >> >> I echo Briley's sentiments that many today have no concept of what >> went down in the past. >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Briley Pollard >> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:28 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >> >> I think it is not always an appropriate comparison to say our struggle >> for civil rights isn't completely parallel with the black American >> experience, but we have struggled for civil rights. Go read some >> history on how blind people have been treated by families and >> institutions over the years. Blind children were targets for sexual >> assault in extremely high numbers because they were considered to be >> vulnerable. They were placed in horrific living conditions throughout >> history in institutions because families believed that blindness was >> equal to ineffectiveness, and that they'd never be able to succeed or >> help out their relatives. As a people group, we have suffered many >> indignities that I don't think the current generation of blind people >> even come close to realizing. >> >> Best, >> Briley >> On May 28, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Darian Smith wrote: >> >> Mike: >> African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term >> themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon how >> they were treated by whites up to that time. >> It is curious that how african-americans were treated is >> always >> one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our >> comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder, >> were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully protest >> the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we safely >> make those comparisons? unless I am missing something (I could be, >> and it wouldn't be the first or last time I have), we have some >> similarities with regards to civil rights, but largely our histories >> were quite different and the scars, deaths,risks were felt on largely >> different levels. >> Just some thoughts on the matter,and I very much appreciate the >> question. >> Respectfully, >> Darian >> >> On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> Darian: >> >> What do you think African-americans would have said during the >> 1950's and 1960's had one of their number said he/she would rather >> date a Caucasian person because of the concern for two black persons >> dating? >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Darian Smith >> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >> >> Jedi, >> Sure-let me see... >> We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with >> situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For >> example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to "visually >> impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person uses >> products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille compass, >> braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people who >> don't utilize these things seem lesser for not. >> I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman than >> a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of two >> blind people dating. >> Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I would >> like to think that it's huge to consider where each person is in >> their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am >> fine >> with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are >> accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told that >> we are "wrong" >> for thinking like we do. >> Does that make sense? >> Respecgfully, >> Darian >> >> >> On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> Very good points. >> We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to >> remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one >> member of a minority group address another member of that same group >> if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should in >> public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive image >> of the rest of that group to society? >> I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it >> varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon >> ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model that >> positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that probably is >> the healthiest way to approach this idea of perception-changing >> that we think about alot, Does that make sense? >> thoughts? >> >> On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: >> Excellent points. >> >> I'm going to add to that some. >> >> I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when they >> attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or >> discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of such >> judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible audience for >> the blind person in question. This audience is made of both the >> blind and the sighted community and creates thoughts like "What will >> my blind friends and colleagues think of me if I react this or that >> way? >> What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will sighted >> bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose situation >> where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that limits >> problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also creates a >> greater likelihood of negative response to perceived threats to the >> blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in the interaction. >> So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person >> to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept >> boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved with >> feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective and >> graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person who's >> offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom line is that >> by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we may be >> shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high stakes >> situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability to present >> the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to the public. >> >> On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in >> our heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us. >> The truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. >> Sure, we >> want to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone >> else. The sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions of one >> person. >> But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that >> except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our >> population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that >> the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're all >> amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception to a >> rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that we're >> as diverse as they are are those who know how to deconstruct >> society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough diversity >> in our population to realize that they can't judge all of us based on >> one person. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Original message: >> That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of >> taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we lose >> sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a >> therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is >> not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your place >> is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, if that >> person, after being shown compassion and alternative ways of >> thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old patterns as >> soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows a lack of respect >> for everyone around them, including themselves. >> So >> if a person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! >> That person will either fall hard when they find out their >> parents/family members/significant other or what have you can't take >> care of them forever, and then they'll realize what needs to happen >> in due time, or they will get sick of the status quo and want to >> change it. And if people hold it against a decent blind person >> because they've met a person like that in the past, it's not worth it >> to try and make them feel any differently. They will either come >> around in time or they won't. Choice is the key word here. >> Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not hurting >> anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose out on a >> potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon as you meet >> someone who's worth your time, you forget about that other person >> real quick >> >> On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: >> I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view >> that we get from the public in general. Most people who are sighted >> are not used to a blind person. You have to understand that one >> blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now reliable for >> what a person thinks about blind people. They are the ones setting >> an example. So if you have a blind person who smells bad, rocks, >> pokes their eyes or just do not have the proper skills, the outside >> person will make an assumtion and say that all blind people are like >> that. i'm not saying it's right for blind people to call out other >> blind people with a skills set that is lower then theirs, they're >> just calling them out because they are representing blind people. It >> puts a bad label on us blind people who do take care of ourselves, >> have the skills to be independent and succeed. like i said, i'm not >> saying it's right but I don't think us who do have the skills want to >> have a negative conotation. Not all blind people poke their eyes, >> rock, hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, do not clean their >> own clothes, or anything like that. So to be part of a group that's >> going to display such a view that is negative to the public, we fall >> right behind that. Am I making sense? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepow >> er >> 17%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >> j >> ed >> i%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >> Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >> %4 >> 0g >> mail.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> - Robert Byrne >> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> - Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >> %40g >> mail.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> - Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 >> 0gmai >> l.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >> 2%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma > il.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From brileyp at gmail.com Sat May 28 20:52:52 2011 From: brileyp at gmail.com (Briley Pollard) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 16:52:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: <4de12bc7.4a8ee50a.2901.501b@mx.google.com> References: <4de12bc7.4a8ee50a.2901.501b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Josh, nfb.org has a lot of resources to read. Speeches, and former monitor articles are fabulous insights into our history. Best, Briley On May 28, 2011, at 1:07 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: > Is there a site with... the history of blind people and what they went through? I'm curious now, this is a good thread. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date sent: Sat, 28 May 2011 09:52:47 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Although I was never subject to one, I can still remember when, at late as > the 1960's, welfare workers conducted "night raids" with the help of the > police wherein said workers would visit blind clients and go through their > homes to make sure that nothing had been bought that would indicate that the > clients had unreported income. This extended even to such items as a new > dress. > > I echo Briley's sentiments that many today have no concept of what went down > in the past. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Briley Pollard > Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:28 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > I think it is not always an appropriate comparison to say our struggle for > civil rights isn't completely parallel with the black American experience, > but we have struggled for civil rights. Go read some history on how blind > people have been treated by families and institutions over the years. Blind > children were targets for sexual assault in extremely high numbers because > they were considered to be vulnerable. They were placed in horrific living > conditions throughout history in institutions because families believed that > blindness was equal to ineffectiveness, and that they'd never be able to > succeed or help out their relatives. As a people group, we have suffered > many indignities that I don't think the current generation of blind people > even come close to realizing. > > Best, > Briley > On May 28, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Darian Smith wrote: > > Mike: > African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term > themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon how > they were treated by whites up to that time. > It is curious that how african-americans were treated is always > one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our > comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder, > were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully protest > the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we safely > make those comparisons? unless I am missing something (I could be, > and it wouldn't be the first or last time I have), we have some > similarities with regards to civil rights, but largely our histories > were quite different and the scars, deaths,risks were felt on largely > different levels. > Just some thoughts on the matter,and I very much appreciate the > question. > Respectfully, > Darian > > On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > Darian: > > What do you think African-americans would have said during the > 1950's and 1960's had one of their number said he/she would rather > date a Caucasian person because of the concern for two black persons > dating? > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Darian Smith > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Jedi, > Sure-let me see... > We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with > situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For > example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to "visually > impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person uses > products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille compass, > braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people who > don't utilize these things seem lesser for not. > I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman than > a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of two > blind people dating. > Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I would > like to think that it's huge to consider where each person is in > their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am fine > with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are > accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told that we > are "wrong" > for thinking like we do. > Does that make sense? > Respecgfully, > Darian > > > On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: > Very good points. > We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to > remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one > member of a minority group address another member of that same group > if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should in > public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive image > of the rest of that group to society? > I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it > varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon > ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model that > positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that probably is > the healthiest way to approach this idea of perception-changing > that we think about alot, Does that make sense? > thoughts? > > On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: > Excellent points. > > I'm going to add to that some. > > I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when > they attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or > discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of > such judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible > audience for the blind person in question. This audience is made of > both the blind and the sighted community and creates thoughts like > "What will my blind friends and colleagues think of me if I react this > or that way? > What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will > sighted bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose > situation where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that > limits problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also > creates a greater likelihood of negative response to perceived > threats to the blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in the > interaction. > So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person > to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept > boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved > with feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective > and graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person > who's offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom line > is that by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we > may be shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high > stakes situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability to > present the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to the > public. > > On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in > our heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us. > The truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. Sure, we > want to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone > else. The sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions of one > person. > But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that > except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our > population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that > the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're all > amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception to > a rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that > we're as diverse as they are are those who know how to deconstruct > society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough > diversity in our population to realize that they can't judge all of > us based on one > person. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: > That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of > taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we > lose sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a > therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is > not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your > place is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, > if that person, after being shown compassion and alternative ways > of thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old > patterns as soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows a > lack of respect for everyone around them, including themselves. So > if a person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! > That person will either fall hard when they find out their > parents/family members/significant other or what have you can't > take care of them forever, and then they'll realize what needs to > happen in due time, or they will get sick of the status quo and > want to change it. And if people hold it against a decent blind > person because they've met a person like that in the past, it's > not worth it to try and make them feel any differently. They will > either come around in time or they > won't. Choice is the key word here. > Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not > hurting anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose > out on a potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon > as you meet someone who's worth your time, you forget about that > other person real quick > > On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: > I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view > that we get from the public in general. Most people who are > sighted are not used to a blind person. You have to understand > that one blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now > reliable for what a person thinks about blind people. They are > the ones setting an example. So if you have a blind person who > smells bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or just do not have the > proper skills, the outside person will make an assumtion and say > that all blind people are like that. i'm not saying it's right > for blind people to call out other blind people with a skills set > that is lower then theirs, they're just calling them out because > they are representing blind people. It puts a bad label on us > blind people who do take care of ourselves, have the skills to be > independent and succeed. like i said, i'm not saying it's right > but I don't think us who do have the skills want to have a > negative conotation. Not all blind people poke their eyes, rock, > hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, do not clean their > own clothes, or anything like that. So to be part of a group > that's going to display such a view that is negative to the public, > we fall right behind that. Am I making sense? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepow > er > 17%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind > j > ed > i%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb > %4 > 0g > mail.com > > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: > http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: > http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb > %40g > mail.com > > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: > http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 > 0gmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%40gmail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sat May 28 20:55:33 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 16:55:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Message-ID: <4de16151.814de50a.51bb.54d6@mx.google.com> Thanks, Briley! Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Briley Pollard wrote: Darian: What do you think African-americans would have said during the 1950's and 1960's had one of their number said he/she would rather date a Caucasian person because of the concern for two black persons dating? Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Jedi, Sure-let me see... We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to "visually impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person uses products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille compass, braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people who don't utilize these things seem lesser for not. I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman than a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of two blind people dating. Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I would like to think that it's huge to consider where each person is in their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am fine with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told that we are "wrong" for thinking like we do. Does that make sense? Respecgfully, Darian On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: Very good points. We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one member of a minority group address another member of that same group if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should in public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive image of the rest of that group to society? I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model that positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that probably is the healthiest way to approach this idea of perception-changing that we think about alot, Does that make sense? thoughts? On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: Excellent points. I'm going to add to that some. I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when they attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of such judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible audience for the blind person in question. This audience is made of both the blind and the sighted community and creates thoughts like "What will my blind friends and colleagues think of me if I react this or that way? What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will sighted bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose situation where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that limits problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also creates a greater likelihood of negative response to perceived threats to the blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in the interaction. So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved with feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective and graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person who's offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom line is that by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we may be shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high stakes situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability to present the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to the public. On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in our heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us. The truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. Sure, we want to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone else. The sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions of one person. But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're all amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception to a rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that we're as diverse as they are are those who know how to deconstruct society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough diversity in our population to realize that they can't judge all of us based on one person. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we lose sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your place is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, if that person, after being shown compassion and alternative ways of thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old patterns as soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows a lack of respect for everyone around them, including themselves. So if a person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! That person will either fall hard when they find out their parents/family members/significant other or what have you can't take care of them forever, and then they'll realize what needs to happen in due time, or they will get sick of the status quo and want to change it. And if people hold it against a decent blind person because they've met a person like that in the past, it's not worth it to try and make them feel any differently. They will either come around in time or they won't. Choice is the key word here. Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not hurting anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose out on a potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon as you meet someone who's worth your time, you forget about that other person real quick On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view that we get from the public in general. Most people who are sighted are not used to a blind person. You have to understand that one blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now reliable for what a person thinks about blind people. They are the ones setting an example. So if you have a blind person who smells bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or just do not have the proper skills, the outside person will make an assumtion and say that all blind people are like that. i'm not saying it's right for blind people to call out other blind people with a skills set that is lower then theirs, they're just calling them out because they are representing blind people. It puts a bad label on us blind people who do take care of ourselves, have the skills to be independent and succeed. like i said, i'm not saying it's right but I don't think us who do have the skills want to have a negative conotation. Not all blind people poke their eyes, rock, hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, do not clean their own clothes, or anything like that. So to be part of a group that's going to display such a view that is negative to the public, we fall right behind that. Am I making sense? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepow er 17%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind j ed i%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb %4 0g mail.com -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. - Robert Byrne -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. - Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb %40g mail.com -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. - Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 0gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p anix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 0gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From k7uij at panix.com Sat May 28 22:06:28 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 15:06:28 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: References: <4de12bc7.4a8ee50a.2901.501b@mx.google.com> <000201cc1d5a$ec343b90$c49cb2b0$@panix.com> <000501cc1d6c$cbd2e010$6378a030$@panix.com> Message-ID: <000a01cc1d83$7f22cc50$7d6864f0$@panix.com> Kirt: I agree with you almost entirely. Now that I've heard your parents' story, perhaps I understand a bit more why you seem bound and determined to find fault withus (the NFB). All I can say is that the Federation, as all other organizations on Mother Earth, are made of human beings (I'm not counting crows or ants or monkeys or chimps here). As such, we're not perfect. I know several very fine Federationists whom I would steer new members away from (no names, please) until these new members had a bit of leavening in our philosophy and ways so as to understand where the Federationists I'm speaking of are coming from. So what? That's life in the fast lane. I know of persons in my state who were Federationists thirty-odd years ago and who, because of one or two incidents back then, are suspicious of everything the Federation does now. It's almost as if everyone expects the Federation to be perfect and immutable and when it is not, blames it for misfortunes that befall them, maintaining that it is the NFB philosophy of blindness that is to blame rather than all-too-fallible members of homo sapiens sapiens from whom NFB and every other organization draw their memberships. Is it any wonder that we who have been elected to the NFB leadership express some frustration? It often seems to me, at least, that we are confronted with "heads I win; tails you lose" Such double-binds are double-plus unfair. "Don't you *dare* try to convince me of the rightness of your philosophy or I'll call you militant, radical, uncaring, boorish, unethical, dastardly, thoughtless, unloving and any other pejorative adjectives I can think of!". I'm sorry but that ain't fair. To be sure, I don't try to convince died-in-the-wool ACB members that they are wrong; they have a right to believe as they wish and to express themselves and to organize to bring pressure on the Powers that Be to get their ideas implemented. But I don't have to take it lying down if I think the issue of sufficient importance. I once read a letter from Dr. Maurer to a now-committed Federationist who wrote to him expressing great doubt about the efficacy of NFB philosophy and asked for reading material. Obviously, dr. maurer sent it along with a letter, part of which said something that might surprise you. He said: "I'd rather have you join ACB than join nothing. In this country, we make our voices heard through collective action and by joining either ACB or NFB, you have a chance to make your voice count.". I agree with this completely. Does this mean that a non-joiner can't have influence? Certainly not. However, given the political structure in this country, many voices have more influence than one voice. Do I think everyone should join an organization of the blind? I think we could get a lot done were this so. But it isn't going to happen and to force the issue would be to negate the very freedoms and dignity that we're fighting for. However, those who do not join and who then complain I consider morally bankrupt. In effect, I consider the phrase "silent majority" to be an oxymoron. By definition, the only people who count politically are those who speak up. How else is one to know what the "silent majority" really wants? Both sides in any debate claim that they speak for it. It is in this sense that we of NFB say we speak for the blind. ACB says it also. And we're both right. But bback to the initial intent of this thread. I don't know where all of you get the idea that we of NFB are continually attacking the ACB. Frankly, I don't even think about ACB most of the time (a state of affairs which galls them immensely). ACB can do its thing and as long as it doesn't adversely impact NFB's goals, it's OK with me. If its actions *do* impact them, I'll fight them. For the most part, however, we just go our separate ways. But to say that we of NFB shouldn't say what we think (assuming that we're not being petty or cruel) is applying a double-standard of behavior sinceACB often compares itself favorably to us and no one says a thing. Finally, let's cut to the chase here. And here I *will* use names. Humberto Avila asked a question about dating blind versus sighted people. A lively thread ensued in which Joshua Lester was honest enough to reveal his frustrations and insecurities. Should we have simply said "yeah; ain't it awful!" and gone on our way?or should we have challenged his beliefs just a bit (as we did), causing him to defend his views and, in the process, think them through at least a bit? We debate damned near everything else on this list. Why should this thread be exempt? I don't think any of us were denigrating Joshua. In fact, I venture to say that we were trying to be encouraging. In effect, we were saying "think out of the box!". Obviously, being challenged with new ideas can be a bit uncomfortable. But Joshua did not appear to me to take offense. If he did, we owe him an apology. But was it better to try to expand his horizons (something his messages practically begged us to do) or just ignore them. IMO it could go either way. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 1:10 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Mike, That makes a lot of sense...I find myself agreeing with you. Mostly. The only thing I'd say is there's a difference between constructive preaching and destructive preaching. It's good, even necessary, to spread our philosophy. Just like my church sends out missionaries by the thousands to spread what we believe is the gospel, millions of Christians around the world get involved with outreach ministries and procelyting, and so forth. As you say, that's human nature and when people try and build up their own philosophy by spreading the message to others, I say it's a beautiful thing. The problem is destructive preaching. So when a Mormon missionary deliberately attacks another church, when a Christian minister decides to burn the Qu'ran instead of talking about Christ, or when a Federationist goes out of his way to smear the Council instead of strengthening the Federation. I get that there are times the Federaion and Council are in conflict because it's what our respective philosophies demand. (even if the ACB doesn't have a national philosophy, strictly speaking) But in that conflict, when it happens, it critical that we stand by our own message rather than going out of our way to destroy theirs. America's a free market of ideas-strengthening our own position will serve us better than weakening anyone else's. Of course, you know how that all translates in to the political realm and I suspect it doesn't always translate well. But I think, especially on a personal level, we live our philosophy and we share it. That doesn't mean we make an effort to call them out or make them feel like their beliefs are wrong. If their beliefs are wrong, better for them to realize it in time if they're the kind of person that will...if they aren't, why not let it rest and try to get along? t the veeat, say godbye and avoid an unpleasant confrontation if you know the other person won't bend. I recognize that philosophy doesn't always work when dealing with other organizations but, when dealing with individuals, I don't see why it can't. Isn't it better to live a life as a respectable blind person, answer questions as they're presented, maybe talk a little about the Federation if it comes up and let them decide what they want? If they accept it, great! If not, that's ok too. I know plenty of respectable blind people outside the Federation-our way isn't the only ay for people to become independent and empowered. Maybe another way is honestly better for someone else. And, if they don't want that independence and empowerment after it's been offered kindly and respectfully, isn't it better just to drop the subject and try to be friends? Who knows,maybe they'd come around eventually. An angry debate certainly wouldn't help that happen. In closing, I'd like to share an experience that kept me out of the NFB for a long time, even though it didn't happen to me. My parents found out I was blind a w months after I was born. Naturally those first few years were really difficult for them, I can't imagine what that's like for a parent. Anyways my mom decided she wanted to be an O&M instructor, so she went to school in Arizona. While there, she was introduced to the Federation and went to a meeting. The way she told me the story, a blind woman approached her and said "I'm going to tell you something important. Your son is blind. You are not. So you'll never be able to understand him as much as we can." Had that first introduction to the Federation been more respectful, I suspect I'd be a lifetime member. As it stands now, my parents are still a little on guard around the Federation (although they certainly support my involvement), and they themselves are not Federationists. I often wonder how much more involved they would be had that first introduction gone just a little bit differently. Warmly, Kirt On 5/28/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > Kirt: > > I agree that, ideally at least, we should live and let live. In fact, > as a practical matter, that is what is done here in the state of > Washington: the NFB of Washington and the Washington Council of the > Blind work together when we can -- often rather closely -- but we > agree to disagree on some matters and as long as no one stirs the pot, > we tend to stay out of each other's way on matters on which we > disagree, if only because neither organization has sufficient political clout to prevail easily when we work at cross-purposes. > But you can bet your life that if WCB actively pushed something that > was totally against NFB policy, we of NFB would try to defeat WCB's > effort. In like fashion, I am certain that WCB would do the same viz. > our efforts if they directly contradicted some ACB policy that WCB > members held dear. That isn't really a problem in that Mitch > Pomerantz, President of ACB, himself said that ACB stands for no > organized philosophy and ACB doesn't enforce unified policy directives > on its affiliates. In other words, the problem hasn't arisen here -- > at least not in the past twenty-five years. And the threats to > blindness agencies in this state have been of sufficient magnitude > that we (NFBW and WCB) were on the same side, even if we love some the agencies a bit less than do members of WCB; there was no alternative. > > Having said this, I don't believe that the lack of effectiveness in > the black civil rights movement of the late 1960's was due to > fragmented voices within that movement. Rather, I think it was due in > some measure to martin Luther King Jr.'s scattering his shots -- > coming out against the Vietnam War and for anti-poverty initiatives, > for example, instead of keeping his "eye on the prize" as the PBS > history of the civil rights movement is called. I think there was room > enough for many voices in the civil rights movement although I confess > that many WASPs such as I were turned off big-time by Stoakley > Carmichael, H. Rap Brown, bobby Seal, Eldrige Cleaver and other persons of like mind. > > I think the comparison by some of our detractors of NFB to a religion > is much overblown. However, I think the comparison is valid to this > extent: if one truly applied your "live and let live" and "preach by example" > philosophy -- quite admirable in the abstract -- to religion, there > would be no missionaries, no jihad, no outreach ministries, and the > like. Put another way, it's human nature to try to reach out to > convince those with whom we disagree or those whom we would convert. > "gospel" means "good news", after all. > > Does this mean that we should look down upon blind people who do not > have the skills of blindness? Of course not. They, like we, are > "Within the Grace of God" as tenBroek's speech is entitled. Does this > mean that there are not alternative ways to look at the problems of blindness? Again, of course not. > But let us remember that we of NFB are out to do nothing less than to > change society -- to obliterate the stereotype of the "helpless blind > person" and the discriminatory treatment, blighted hopes and missed > opportunities that flow from this misbegotten stereotype. And in the > United States, change is effected by banding together in associations > of like mind to advocate for those policies we believe in. This is not > an undertaking of passivity. For better or worse, advocacy involves, > to some extent at least, preaching. Of course this does not mean that > we should be intolerant or maintain that there are no other > viewpoints. But it *also* doesn't mean that we refrain from > passionately advocating for what we believe in. that's the way things get done in this country. > > How this all plays out at a personal level isn't always easy to > fathom. As I've said before, no one ever said being a Federationist > was easy. But I submit that *not* saying anything -- even if only > words of encouragement -- when we find injustice, erroneous > stereotypes and persons selling themselves short -- is contrary to what we have pledged ourselves to accomplish. > > WE should never be obnoxious or boorish. But saying nothing is itself > making a statement. > > What this all amounts to is espousal of the Serenity Prayer: "O god: > give me the strength to change the things I can, the patience to > accept the things I cannot and the wisdom to discern the difference.". > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 10:36 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Mike, > In the African-american struggle for huma rights, there were/are > lots of different philosophies and approaches taken by a lot of > different people-you probably know more about that than me having > lived through a lot of the craziness. Do you think more could've > happened faster if...say, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X spent less > time bickering and more time cooperating or, at the very least, > ignoring each other? I'm not denying that both of them did a lot to > better the condition of black people...but imagine what could've > happened if the two of them didn't take so long to reconcile-or, if > nothing else, if they didn't spend time attacking each others' > philosophies and devoted that energy to their respective movements? > Could that comparison be aplicable to us? Am I remiss when I say > that we in NFB sometimes spend too much time attacking the > philosophies of other blind people rather than advancing our own > philosophy? Am I remiss in saying that many in the ACB spend more > time trying to tear down the Federation instead of building up the > Council? Why can't we, if nothing else, leave each other alone and > spend all our time working on our own goals? > Maybe we could take that comparison further, to incolude individual > blind people who disagree with us. Ideally we should try to engage in > constructive dialogue and find some sort of common ground with people > who disagree and, for example, have next to no travel or daily living skills. > After all, we hope they'll "see the light", so to speak, and become > empowered with good training. But let's say they don't accept our > philosophy...whether they're compitent blind people or not, let's say > they want nothing to do with the Federation. I say first we try and > learn whatever we can from them, no matter their skills and atitude > (or lack thereof). Once we've learned something from them, even if > it's as simple as "I need to have better cane skills" or "this guy has > terrible hygiene-at least I know now why it's so important to take > showers!", then I think we try and let them learn from us. That can > either be by talking or by them looking at our example...if they > chose to not accept our world view, there's no reason to get angry and > defensive. There is still probably common ground somewhere and, even > in the highly unlikely event you can't find any (which is probably due > to you not looking hard enough), just ignore the person and move on. > If we can't be friends, there's no reason to be enemies...live and let > live, and all that jazz. > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/28/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> I know of no site that has everything gathered in one place. However, >> you could do worse than to read Dr. Floyd Matson's book, "Walking >> Alone and marching together" (available on the NFB website and via >> the NLS Web-braille >> site) and, if you'd wish to see the alternative point-of-view, James >> McGivern's "People of Vision: a History of the american Council of >> the Blind", also available from the NLS Web-braille and BARD sites. >> >> It might also behoove us all to reread or re-listen-to the NFB >> convention banquet speechdes of Drs. tenBroke, Jernigan and Maurer. >> >> I know that's a lot of reading but no one ever said Federationism was > easy! >> (huge grin) >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Josh Gregory >> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 10:07 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >> >> Is there a site with... the history of blind people and what they >> went through? I'm curious now, this is a good thread. >> Josh >> >> sent from my Apex >> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Freeman" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Date sent: Sat, 28 May 2011 09:52:47 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >> >> Although I was never subject to one, I can still remember when, at >> late as the 1960's, welfare workers conducted "night raids" with the >> help of the police wherein said workers would visit blind clients and >> go through their homes to make sure that nothing had been bought that >> would indicate that the clients had unreported income. This extended >> even to such items as a new dress. >> >> I echo Briley's sentiments that many today have no concept of what >> went down in the past. >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Briley Pollard >> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:28 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >> >> I think it is not always an appropriate comparison to say our >> struggle for civil rights isn't completely parallel with the black >> American experience, but we have struggled for civil rights. Go read >> some history on how blind people have been treated by families and >> institutions over the years. Blind children were targets for sexual >> assault in extremely high numbers because they were considered to be >> vulnerable. They were placed in horrific living conditions >> throughout history in institutions because families believed that >> blindness was equal to ineffectiveness, and that they'd never be able >> to succeed or help out their relatives. As a people group, we have >> suffered many indignities that I don't think the current generation >> of blind people even come close to realizing. >> >> Best, >> Briley >> On May 28, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Darian Smith wrote: >> >> Mike: >> African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term >> themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon how >> they were treated by whites up to that time. >> It is curious that how african-americans were treated is >> always >> one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our >> comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder, >> were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully protest >> the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we >> safely make those comparisons? unless I am missing something (I >> could be, and it wouldn't be the first or last time I have), we have >> some similarities with regards to civil rights, but largely our >> histories were quite different and the scars, deaths,risks were felt >> on largely different levels. >> Just some thoughts on the matter,and I very much appreciate the >> question. >> Respectfully, >> Darian >> >> On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> Darian: >> >> What do you think African-americans would have said during the >> 1950's and 1960's had one of their number said he/she would rather >> date a Caucasian person because of the concern for two black persons >> dating? >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith >> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >> >> Jedi, >> Sure-let me see... >> We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with >> situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For >> example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to "visually >> impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person uses >> products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille compass, >> braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people who >> don't utilize these things seem lesser for not. >> I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman >> than a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of two >> blind people dating. >> Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I >> would like to think that it's huge to consider where each person is in >> their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am >> fine >> with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are >> accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told that >> we are "wrong" >> for thinking like we do. >> Does that make sense? >> Respecgfully, >> Darian >> >> >> On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> Very good points. >> We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to >> remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one >> member of a minority group address another member of that same group >> if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should in >> public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive image >> of the rest of that group to society? >> I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it >> varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon >> ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model that >> positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that probably is >> the healthiest way to approach this idea of perception-changing >> that we think about alot, Does that make sense? >> thoughts? >> >> On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: >> Excellent points. >> >> I'm going to add to that some. >> >> I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when >> they attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or >> discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of >> such judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible >> audience for the blind person in question. This audience is made of >> both the blind and the sighted community and creates thoughts like >> "What will my blind friends and colleagues think of me if I react >> this or that way? >> What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will >> sighted bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose >> situation where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that >> limits problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also >> creates a greater likelihood of negative response to perceived >> threats to the blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in the interaction. >> So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person >> to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept >> boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved with >> feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective and >> graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person who's >> offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom line is >> that by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we may be >> shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high stakes >> situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability to present >> the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to the public. >> >> On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in >> our heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us. >> The truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. >> Sure, we >> want to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone >> else. The sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions of >> one person. >> But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that >> except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our >> population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that >> the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're all >> amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception to a >> rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that we're >> as diverse as they are are those who know how to deconstruct >> society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough >> diversity in our population to realize that they can't judge all of >> us based on one person. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Original message: >> That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of >> taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we lose >> sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a >> therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is >> not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your >> place is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, if >> that person, after being shown compassion and alternative ways of >> thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old patterns as >> soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows a lack of >> respect for everyone around them, including themselves. >> So >> if a person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! >> That person will either fall hard when they find out their >> parents/family members/significant other or what have you can't take >> care of them forever, and then they'll realize what needs to happen >> in due time, or they will get sick of the status quo and want to >> change it. And if people hold it against a decent blind person >> because they've met a person like that in the past, it's not worth >> it to try and make them feel any differently. They will either come >> around in time or they won't. Choice is the key word here. >> Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not >> hurting anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose >> out on a potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon as >> you meet someone who's worth your time, you forget about that other >> person real quick >> >> On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: >> I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view >> that we get from the public in general. Most people who are sighted >> are not used to a blind person. You have to understand that one >> blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now reliable for >> what a person thinks about blind people. They are the ones setting >> an example. So if you have a blind person who smells bad, rocks, >> pokes their eyes or just do not have the proper skills, the outside >> person will make an assumtion and say that all blind people are like >> that. i'm not saying it's right for blind people to call out other >> blind people with a skills set that is lower then theirs, they're >> just calling them out because they are representing blind people. >> It puts a bad label on us blind people who do take care of >> ourselves, have the skills to be independent and succeed. like i >> said, i'm not saying it's right but I don't think us who do have the >> skills want to have a negative conotation. Not all blind people >> poke their eyes, rock, hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, >> do not clean their own clothes, or anything like that. So to be part >> of a group that's going to display such a view that is negative to >> the public, we fall right behind that. Am I making sense? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepow >> er >> 17%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >> j >> ed >> i%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >> Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >> %4 >> 0g >> mail.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> - Robert Byrne >> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> - Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >> %40g >> mail.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> - Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 >> 0gmai >> l.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >> anix.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >> 2%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude > %40gma > il.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix. > com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude > %40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat May 28 22:57:48 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 16:57:48 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: <000a01cc1d83$7f22cc50$7d6864f0$@panix.com> References: <4de12bc7.4a8ee50a.2901.501b@mx.google.com> <000201cc1d5a$ec343b90$c49cb2b0$@panix.com> <000501cc1d6c$cbd2e010$6378a030$@panix.com> <000a01cc1d83$7f22cc50$7d6864f0$@panix.com> Message-ID: Mike, I'm no more determined to "find fault" with the NFB than with any organization, secular, eclesiastical, political or otherwise. I'm active in the Federation because I agree with most of the philosophy most of the time, which is something I personally can't say about ACB. Does that make them wrong? Certainly not to them. Should I commit myself 100 percent to any organization? Hell no! But that's just me. And I call myself a Federationist because, so far, I've not been able to find a (generally speaking) more compitent and capable group of blind people and I mostly agree with most Federationists about most issues relating to blindness. That's enough of a reason for me to participate and join my voice with the organization in collective action. As far as the dating thing goes...I'd submit that was a great example of how we ought to handle things. Joshua was honest, we were honest, we weren't trying to make him feel worthless or wrong, we were telling him how we think about the issue and trying to build him up. That's a fine example of constructive preaching...on the other hand, if we'd insulted him, called him incompitent, told him he was being a bad ambasador of blindness...I suspect it wouldn't have gone over nearly so well. Yet that's what I've seen some blind people, in and out of the federation, say to other blind people with whom they disagree. And Mike, I think the Federation as an organization is actually pretty good at this. It's just certain individual Federationists that I've seen tear people down rather than building them up-that's not the Federation's fault! A few bad apples don't reflect any group as a whole. But does that mean we act like they don't exist? And if I say the organization could be better in certain areas, does that make me less of a Federationist? I don't think so and I suspect you don't, either. Warmly, Kirt On 5/28/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > Kirt: > > I agree with you almost entirely. Now that I've heard your parents' story, > perhaps I understand a bit more why you seem bound and determined to find > fault withus (the NFB). All I can say is that the Federation, as all other > organizations on Mother Earth, are made of human beings (I'm not counting > crows or ants or monkeys or chimps here). As such, we're not perfect. I know > several very fine Federationists whom I would steer new members away from > (no names, please) until these new members had a bit of leavening in our > philosophy and ways so as to understand where the Federationists I'm > speaking of are coming from. So what? That's life in the fast lane. > > I know of persons in my state who were Federationists thirty-odd years ago > and who, because of one or two incidents back then, are suspicious of > everything the Federation does now. It's almost as if everyone expects the > Federation to be perfect and immutable and when it is not, blames it for > misfortunes that befall them, maintaining that it is the NFB philosophy of > blindness that is to blame rather than all-too-fallible members of homo > sapiens sapiens from whom NFB and every other organization draw their > memberships. Is it any wonder that we who have been elected to the NFB > leadership express some frustration? It often seems to me, at least, that we > are confronted with "heads I win; tails you lose" Such double-binds are > double-plus unfair. "Don't you *dare* try to convince me of the rightness of > your philosophy or I'll call you militant, radical, uncaring, boorish, > unethical, dastardly, thoughtless, unloving and any other pejorative > adjectives I can think of!". I'm sorry but that ain't fair. > > To be sure, I don't try to convince died-in-the-wool ACB members that they > are wrong; they have a right to believe as they wish and to express > themselves and to organize to bring pressure on the Powers that Be to get > their ideas implemented. But I don't have to take it lying down if I think > the issue of sufficient importance. > > I once read a letter from Dr. Maurer to a now-committed Federationist who > wrote to him expressing great doubt about the efficacy of NFB philosophy and > asked for reading material. Obviously, dr. maurer sent it along with a > letter, part of which said something that might surprise you. He said: "I'd > rather have you join ACB than join nothing. In this country, we make our > voices heard through collective action and by joining either ACB or NFB, you > have a chance to make your voice count.". I agree with this completely. > > Does this mean that a non-joiner can't have influence? Certainly not. > However, given the political structure in this country, many voices have > more influence than one voice. > > Do I think everyone should join an organization of the blind? I think we > could get a lot done were this so. But it isn't going to happen and to force > the issue would be to negate the very freedoms and dignity that we're > fighting for. However, those who do not join and who then complain I > consider morally bankrupt. In effect, I consider the phrase "silent > majority" to be an oxymoron. By definition, the only people who count > politically are those who speak up. How else is one to know what the "silent > majority" really wants? Both sides in any debate claim that they speak for > it. It is in this sense that we of NFB say we speak for the blind. ACB says > it also. And we're both right. > > > But bback to the initial intent of this thread. I don't know where all of > you get the idea that we of NFB are continually attacking the ACB. Frankly, > I don't even think about ACB most of the time (a state of affairs which > galls them immensely). ACB can do its thing and as long as it doesn't > adversely impact NFB's goals, it's OK with me. If its actions *do* impact > them, I'll fight them. For the most part, however, we just go our separate > ways. > > But to say that we of NFB shouldn't say what we think (assuming that we're > not being petty or cruel) is applying a double-standard of behavior sinceACB > often compares itself favorably to us and no one says a thing. > > Finally, let's cut to the chase here. And here I *will* use names. Humberto > Avila asked a question about dating blind versus sighted people. A lively > thread ensued in which Joshua Lester was honest enough to reveal his > frustrations and insecurities. Should we have simply said "yeah; ain't it > awful!" and gone on our way?or should we have challenged his beliefs just a > bit (as we did), causing him to defend his views and, in the process, think > them through at least a bit? We debate damned near everything else on this > list. Why should this thread be exempt? I don't think any of us were > denigrating Joshua. In fact, I venture to say that we were trying to be > encouraging. In effect, we were saying "think out of the box!". Obviously, > being challenged with new ideas can be a bit uncomfortable. But Joshua did > not appear to me to take offense. If he did, we owe him an apology. But was > it better to try to expand his horizons (something his messages practically > begged us to do) or just ignore them. IMO it could go either way. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 1:10 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Mike, > That makes a lot of sense...I find myself agreeing with you. Mostly. > The only thing I'd say is there's a difference between constructive > preaching and destructive preaching. It's good, even necessary, to spread > our philosophy. Just like my church sends out missionaries by the thousands > to spread what we believe is the gospel, millions of Christians around the > world get involved with outreach ministries and procelyting, and so forth. > As you say, that's human nature and when people try and build up their own > philosophy by spreading the message to others, I say it's a beautiful thing. > The problem is destructive preaching. So when a Mormon missionary > deliberately attacks another church, when a Christian minister decides to > burn the Qu'ran instead of talking about Christ, or when a Federationist > goes out of his way to smear the Council instead of strengthening the > Federation. I get that there are times the Federaion and Council are in > conflict because it's what our respective philosophies demand. (even if the > ACB doesn't have a national philosophy, strictly speaking) But in that > conflict, when it happens, it critical that we stand by our own message > rather than going out of our way to destroy theirs. America's a free market > of ideas-strengthening our own position will serve us better than weakening > anyone else's. Of course, you know how that all translates in to the > political realm and I suspect it doesn't always translate well. > But I think, especially on a personal level, we live our philosophy and we > share it. That doesn't mean we make an effort to call them out or make them > feel like their beliefs are wrong. If their beliefs are wrong, better for > them to realize it in time if they're the kind of person that will...if they > aren't, why not let it rest and try to get along? t the veeat, say godbye > and avoid an unpleasant confrontation if you know the other person won't > bend. I recognize that philosophy doesn't always work when dealing with > other organizations but, when dealing with individuals, I don't see why it > can't. Isn't it better to live a life as a respectable blind person, answer > questions as they're presented, maybe talk a little about the Federation if > it comes up and let them decide what they want? If they accept it, great! > If not, that's ok too. I know plenty of respectable blind people outside > the Federation-our way isn't the only ay for people to become independent > and empowered. Maybe another way is honestly better for someone else. And, > if they don't want that independence and empowerment after it's been offered > kindly and respectfully, isn't it better just to drop the subject and try to > be friends? Who knows,maybe they'd come around eventually. An angry debate > certainly wouldn't help that happen. > In closing, I'd like to share an experience that kept me out of the NFB > for a long time, even though it didn't happen to me. My parents found out I > was blind a w months after I was born. Naturally those first few years were > really difficult for them, I can't imagine what that's like for a parent. > Anyways my mom decided she wanted to be an O&M instructor, so she went to > school in Arizona. While there, she was introduced to the Federation and > went to a meeting. The way she told me the story, a blind woman approached > her and said "I'm going to tell you something important. Your son is blind. > You are not. So you'll never be able to understand him as much as we can." > Had that first introduction to the Federation been more respectful, I > suspect I'd be a lifetime member. As it stands now, my parents are still a > little on guard around the Federation (although they certainly support my > involvement), and they themselves are not Federationists. I often wonder > how much more involved they would be had that first introduction gone just a > little bit differently. > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/28/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >> Kirt: >> >> I agree that, ideally at least, we should live and let live. In fact, >> as a practical matter, that is what is done here in the state of >> Washington: the NFB of Washington and the Washington Council of the >> Blind work together when we can -- often rather closely -- but we >> agree to disagree on some matters and as long as no one stirs the pot, >> we tend to stay out of each other's way on matters on which we >> disagree, if only because neither organization has sufficient political > clout to prevail easily when we work at cross-purposes. >> But you can bet your life that if WCB actively pushed something that >> was totally against NFB policy, we of NFB would try to defeat WCB's >> effort. In like fashion, I am certain that WCB would do the same viz. >> our efforts if they directly contradicted some ACB policy that WCB >> members held dear. That isn't really a problem in that Mitch >> Pomerantz, President of ACB, himself said that ACB stands for no >> organized philosophy and ACB doesn't enforce unified policy directives >> on its affiliates. In other words, the problem hasn't arisen here -- >> at least not in the past twenty-five years. And the threats to >> blindness agencies in this state have been of sufficient magnitude >> that we (NFBW and WCB) were on the same side, even if we love some the > agencies a bit less than do members of WCB; there was no alternative. >> >> Having said this, I don't believe that the lack of effectiveness in >> the black civil rights movement of the late 1960's was due to >> fragmented voices within that movement. Rather, I think it was due in >> some measure to martin Luther King Jr.'s scattering his shots -- >> coming out against the Vietnam War and for anti-poverty initiatives, >> for example, instead of keeping his "eye on the prize" as the PBS >> history of the civil rights movement is called. I think there was room >> enough for many voices in the civil rights movement although I confess >> that many WASPs such as I were turned off big-time by Stoakley >> Carmichael, H. Rap Brown, bobby Seal, Eldrige Cleaver and other persons of > like mind. >> >> I think the comparison by some of our detractors of NFB to a religion >> is much overblown. However, I think the comparison is valid to this >> extent: if one truly applied your "live and let live" and "preach by > example" >> philosophy -- quite admirable in the abstract -- to religion, there >> would be no missionaries, no jihad, no outreach ministries, and the >> like. Put another way, it's human nature to try to reach out to >> convince those with whom we disagree or those whom we would convert. >> "gospel" means "good news", after all. >> >> Does this mean that we should look down upon blind people who do not >> have the skills of blindness? Of course not. They, like we, are >> "Within the Grace of God" as tenBroek's speech is entitled. Does this >> mean that there are not alternative ways to look at the problems of > blindness? Again, of course not. >> But let us remember that we of NFB are out to do nothing less than to >> change society -- to obliterate the stereotype of the "helpless blind >> person" and the discriminatory treatment, blighted hopes and missed >> opportunities that flow from this misbegotten stereotype. And in the >> United States, change is effected by banding together in associations >> of like mind to advocate for those policies we believe in. This is not >> an undertaking of passivity. For better or worse, advocacy involves, >> to some extent at least, preaching. Of course this does not mean that >> we should be intolerant or maintain that there are no other >> viewpoints. But it *also* doesn't mean that we refrain from >> passionately advocating for what we believe in. that's the way things get > done in this country. >> >> How this all plays out at a personal level isn't always easy to >> fathom. As I've said before, no one ever said being a Federationist >> was easy. But I submit that *not* saying anything -- even if only >> words of encouragement -- when we find injustice, erroneous >> stereotypes and persons selling themselves short -- is contrary to what we > have pledged ourselves to accomplish. >> >> WE should never be obnoxious or boorish. But saying nothing is itself >> making a statement. >> >> What this all amounts to is espousal of the Serenity Prayer: "O god: >> give me the strength to change the things I can, the patience to >> accept the things I cannot and the wisdom to discern the difference.". >> >> Mike >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 10:36 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >> >> Mike, >> In the African-american struggle for huma rights, there were/are >> lots of different philosophies and approaches taken by a lot of >> different people-you probably know more about that than me having >> lived through a lot of the craziness. Do you think more could've >> happened faster if...say, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X spent less >> time bickering and more time cooperating or, at the very least, >> ignoring each other? I'm not denying that both of them did a lot to >> better the condition of black people...but imagine what could've >> happened if the two of them didn't take so long to reconcile-or, if >> nothing else, if they didn't spend time attacking each others' >> philosophies and devoted that energy to their respective movements? >> Could that comparison be aplicable to us? Am I remiss when I say >> that we in NFB sometimes spend too much time attacking the >> philosophies of other blind people rather than advancing our own >> philosophy? Am I remiss in saying that many in the ACB spend more >> time trying to tear down the Federation instead of building up the >> Council? Why can't we, if nothing else, leave each other alone and >> spend all our time working on our own goals? >> Maybe we could take that comparison further, to incolude individual >> blind people who disagree with us. Ideally we should try to engage in >> constructive dialogue and find some sort of common ground with people >> who disagree and, for example, have next to no travel or daily living > skills. >> After all, we hope they'll "see the light", so to speak, and become >> empowered with good training. But let's say they don't accept our >> philosophy...whether they're compitent blind people or not, let's say >> they want nothing to do with the Federation. I say first we try and >> learn whatever we can from them, no matter their skills and atitude >> (or lack thereof). Once we've learned something from them, even if >> it's as simple as "I need to have better cane skills" or "this guy has >> terrible hygiene-at least I know now why it's so important to take >> showers!", then I think we try and let them learn from us. That can >> either be by talking or by them looking at our example...if they >> chose to not accept our world view, there's no reason to get angry and >> defensive. There is still probably common ground somewhere and, even >> in the highly unlikely event you can't find any (which is probably due >> to you not looking hard enough), just ignore the person and move on. >> If we can't be friends, there's no reason to be enemies...live and let >> live, and all that jazz. >> Warmly, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/28/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> I know of no site that has everything gathered in one place. However, >>> you could do worse than to read Dr. Floyd Matson's book, "Walking >>> Alone and marching together" (available on the NFB website and via >>> the NLS Web-braille >>> site) and, if you'd wish to see the alternative point-of-view, James >>> McGivern's "People of Vision: a History of the american Council of >>> the Blind", also available from the NLS Web-braille and BARD sites. >>> >>> It might also behoove us all to reread or re-listen-to the NFB >>> convention banquet speechdes of Drs. tenBroke, Jernigan and Maurer. >>> >>> I know that's a lot of reading but no one ever said Federationism was >> easy! >>> (huge grin) >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Josh Gregory >>> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 10:07 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >>> >>> Is there a site with... the history of blind people and what they >>> went through? I'm curious now, this is a good thread. >>> Josh >>> >>> sent from my Apex >>> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Mike Freeman" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >> Date sent: Sat, 28 May 2011 09:52:47 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >>> >>> Although I was never subject to one, I can still remember when, at >>> late as the 1960's, welfare workers conducted "night raids" with the >>> help of the police wherein said workers would visit blind clients and >>> go through their homes to make sure that nothing had been bought that >>> would indicate that the clients had unreported income. This extended >>> even to such items as a new dress. >>> >>> I echo Briley's sentiments that many today have no concept of what >>> went down in the past. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Briley Pollard >>> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:28 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >>> >>> I think it is not always an appropriate comparison to say our >>> struggle for civil rights isn't completely parallel with the black >>> American experience, but we have struggled for civil rights. Go read >>> some history on how blind people have been treated by families and >>> institutions over the years. Blind children were targets for sexual >>> assault in extremely high numbers because they were considered to be >>> vulnerable. They were placed in horrific living conditions >>> throughout history in institutions because families believed that >>> blindness was equal to ineffectiveness, and that they'd never be able >>> to succeed or help out their relatives. As a people group, we have >>> suffered many indignities that I don't think the current generation >>> of blind people even come close to realizing. >>> >>> Best, >>> Briley >>> On May 28, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Darian Smith wrote: >>> >>> Mike: >>> African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term >>> themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon how >>> they were treated by whites up to that time. >>> It is curious that how african-americans were treated is >>> always >>> one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our >>> comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder, >>> were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully protest >>> the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we >>> safely make those comparisons? unless I am missing something (I >>> could be, and it wouldn't be the first or last time I have), we have >>> some similarities with regards to civil rights, but largely our >>> histories were quite different and the scars, deaths,risks were felt >>> on largely different levels. >>> Just some thoughts on the matter,and I very much appreciate the >>> question. >>> Respectfully, >>> Darian >>> >>> On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman wrote: >>> Darian: >>> >>> What do you think African-americans would have said during the >>> 1950's and 1960's had one of their number said he/she would rather >>> date a Caucasian person because of the concern for two black persons >>> dating? >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith >>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others >>> >>> Jedi, >>> Sure-let me see... >>> We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with >>> situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For >>> example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to "visually >>> impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person uses >>> products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille compass, >>> braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people who >>> don't utilize these things seem lesser for not. >>> I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman >>> than a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of two >>> blind people dating. >>> Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I >>> would like to think that it's huge to consider where each person is in >>> their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am >>> fine >>> with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are >>> accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told that >>> we are "wrong" >>> for thinking like we do. >>> Does that make sense? >>> Respecgfully, >>> Darian >>> >>> >>> On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>> Very good points. >>> We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to >>> remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one >>> member of a minority group address another member of that same group >>> if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should in >>> public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive image >>> of the rest of that group to society? >>> I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it >>> varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon >>> ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model that >>> positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that probably is >>> the healthiest way to approach this idea of perception-changing >>> that we think about alot, Does that make sense? >>> thoughts? >>> >>> On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: >>> Excellent points. >>> >>> I'm going to add to that some. >>> >>> I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when >>> they attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or >>> discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of >>> such judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible >>> audience for the blind person in question. This audience is made of >>> both the blind and the sighted community and creates thoughts like >>> "What will my blind friends and colleagues think of me if I react >>> this or that way? >>> What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will >>> sighted bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose >>> situation where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that >>> limits problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also >>> creates a greater likelihood of negative response to perceived >>> threats to the blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in the > interaction. >>> So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person >>> to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept >>> boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved with >>> feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective and >>> graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person who's >>> offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom line is >>> that by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we may be >>> shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high stakes >>> situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability to present >>> the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to the public. >>> >>> On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in >>> our heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us. >>> The truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. >>> Sure, we >>> want to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone >>> else. The sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions of >>> one person. >>> But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that >>> except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our >>> population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that >>> the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're all >>> amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception to a >>> rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that we're >>> as diverse as they are are those who know how to deconstruct >>> society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough >>> diversity in our population to realize that they can't judge all of >>> us based on one person. >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> >>> Original message: >>> That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of >>> taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we lose >>> sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a >>> therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is >>> not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your >>> place is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, if >>> that person, after being shown compassion and alternative ways of >>> thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old patterns as >>> soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows a lack of >>> respect for everyone around them, including themselves. >>> So >>> if a person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! >>> That person will either fall hard when they find out their >>> parents/family members/significant other or what have you can't take >>> care of them forever, and then they'll realize what needs to happen >>> in due time, or they will get sick of the status quo and want to >>> change it. And if people hold it against a decent blind person >>> because they've met a person like that in the past, it's not worth >>> it to try and make them feel any differently. They will either come >>> around in time or they won't. Choice is the key word here. >>> Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not >>> hurting anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose >>> out on a potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon as >>> you meet someone who's worth your time, you forget about that other >>> person real quick >>> >>> On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: >>> I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view >>> that we get from the public in general. Most people who are sighted >>> are not used to a blind person. You have to understand that one >>> blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now reliable for >>> what a person thinks about blind people. They are the ones setting >>> an example. So if you have a blind person who smells bad, rocks, >>> pokes their eyes or just do not have the proper skills, the outside >>> person will make an assumtion and say that all blind people are like >>> that. i'm not saying it's right for blind people to call out other >>> blind people with a skills set that is lower then theirs, they're >>> just calling them out because they are representing blind people. >>> It puts a bad label on us blind people who do take care of >>> ourselves, have the skills to be independent and succeed. like i >>> said, i'm not saying it's right but I don't think us who do have the >>> skills want to have a negative conotation. Not all blind people >>> poke their eyes, rock, hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, >>> do not clean their own clothes, or anything like that. So to be part >>> of a group that's going to display such a view that is negative to >>> the public, we fall right behind that. Am I making sense? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepow >>> er >>> 17%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind >>> j >>> ed >>> i%40samobile.net >>> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >>> Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>> %4 >>> 0g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> - Robert Byrne >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> - Robert Byrne >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>> anix >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb >>> %40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: >>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> - Robert Byrne >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 >>> 0gmai >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p >>> anix.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >>> 2%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude >> %40gma >> il.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix. >> com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude >> %40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From nabs.president at gmail.com Sun May 29 00:22:58 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 18:22:58 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download In-Reply-To: References: <9E74A93E-8F17-48E0-968A-79E558D18275@gmail.com> <203A2F9932BA49A9BE398FDEFEA50856@OwnerPC> <8D09ECCCD198497397B703E80BF2F0D6@tinad85eb5cc31> <003101cc1b00$74c884f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <2088BF9E7CF344EBA97F7CCCFA0F151A@tinad85eb5cc31> Message-ID: Hi all, I have asked David Dunfy to record this summer's meeting in Orlando and he has agreed to do so, so barring any unforeseen technical problems, the recording should be available shortly after the convention in July. As for Oregon's student division, I have been informed that Chrys Buckley was recently elected president. Tina, are you in contact with her? If you would like to talk to someone about growing your new division, you can contact Domonique Lawless, your regional representative, at dlawless86 at gmail.com or contact me at nabs.president at gmail.com A few years ago, I compiled some sample state division constitutions, meeting agendas, etc. and I'd be glad to share these materials with anyone upon request. Arielle On 5/26/11, Tina Hansen wrote: > I'm in Oregon, and we're attempting to get a student division off the > ground. At best, I could stop by the student meeting to pick up any tools > that might help our state. Thanks. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun May 29 03:17:13 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 22:17:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: <001a01cc1cfa$b05cb850$111628f0$@panix.com> References: <20110526223635.5027.44234@domU-12-31-38-04-0E-D6.compute-1.internal> <009401cc1c20$8b285830$a1790890$@panix.com> <001a01cc1cfa$b05cb850$111628f0$@panix.com> Message-ID: Federationists have received death threats in the past; i can recall from my studies that Rammi Rabby and Dr. Jernigan did. Respectfully, Jedi Sent from my iPhone On May 28, 2011, at 12:47 AM, "Mike Freeman" wrote: > Darian: > > WE of NFB often compare ourselves to African-americans because we consider > ourselves, like them, to be a minority group within the larger society. > Certainly, no one would argue that blind people were attacked with > fire-hoses or lynched while trying to exercise their rights. I do know of > plenty of instances when blind persons were arrested for refusing to move > from exit-row seating to which they were legitimately assigned on airplanes > and I know of one incident wherein a blind person was severely beaten for > being a NFB member. > > I believe there's a bit about this comparison in Dr. Jernigan's 1976 banquet > speech, "Of visions and Vultures". > > I appreciate your question to clarify the comparison. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Darian Smith > Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 10:23 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Mike: > African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term > themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon how > they were treated by whites up to that time. > It is curious that how african-americans were treated is always > one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our > comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder, > were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully protest > the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we safely > make those comparisons? unless I am missing something (I could be, > and it wouldn't be the first or last time I have), we have some > similarities with regards to civil rights, but largely our histories > were quite different and the scars, deaths,risks were felt on largely > different levels. From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 29 03:20:27 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 23:20:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Message-ID: <4de1bb86.4f76e50a.3ce6.666e@mx.google.com> Hi, such a respectable person as Dr. Journigan receiving death threats? To me that is unheard of that such... um... deplorable things could happen to us blind people. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Jedi wrote: Darian: WE of NFB often compare ourselves to African-americans because we consider ourselves, like them, to be a minority group within the larger society. Certainly, no one would argue that blind people were attacked with fire-hoses or lynched while trying to exercise their rights. I do know of plenty of instances when blind persons were arrested for refusing to move from exit-row seating to which they were legitimately assigned on airplanes and I know of one incident wherein a blind person was severely beaten for being a NFB member. I believe there's a bit about this comparison in Dr. Jernigan's 1976 banquet speech, "Of visions and Vultures". I appreciate your question to clarify the comparison. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 10:23 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Mike: African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon how they were treated by whites up to that time. It is curious that how african-americans were treated is always one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder, were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully protest the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we safely make those comparisons? unless I am missing something (I could be, and it wouldn't be the first or last time I have), we have some similarities with regards to civil rights, but largely our histories were quite different and the scars, deaths,risks were felt on largely different levels. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From k7uij at panix.com Sun May 29 03:43:52 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 20:43:52 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: <4de1bb86.4f76e50a.3ce6.666e@mx.google.com> References: <4de1bb86.4f76e50a.3ce6.666e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000c01cc1db2$a1a34dc0$e4e9e940$@panix.com> Oh yes -- as president of the NFB, he was a symbol of the Movement and, as such, was perceived as standing for a philosophy that threatened the status quo (including the self-proclaimed exalted status of various agencies for the blind). The hostility was often palpable and, make no mistake, it took its toll on the man. Whether he'd ever have admitted it or not, it bothered him a lot to receive such hostility that was almost pathological in its extremity. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Josh Gregory Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 8:20 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Hi, such a respectable person as Dr. Journigan receiving death threats? To me that is unheard of that such... um... deplorable things could happen to us blind people. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Jedi wrote: Darian: WE of NFB often compare ourselves to African-americans because we consider ourselves, like them, to be a minority group within the larger society. Certainly, no one would argue that blind people were attacked with fire-hoses or lynched while trying to exercise their rights. I do know of plenty of instances when blind persons were arrested for refusing to move from exit-row seating to which they were legitimately assigned on airplanes and I know of one incident wherein a blind person was severely beaten for being a NFB member. I believe there's a bit about this comparison in Dr. Jernigan's 1976 banquet speech, "Of visions and Vultures". I appreciate your question to clarify the comparison. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 10:23 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Mike: African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon how they were treated by whites up to that time. It is curious that how african-americans were treated is always one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder, were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully protest the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we safely make those comparisons? unless I am missing something (I could be, and it wouldn't be the first or last time I have), we have some similarities with regards to civil rights, but largely our histories were quite different and the scars, deaths,risks were felt on largely different levels. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 29 03:51:19 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 23:51:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Message-ID: <4de1c2c2.47fde50a.01bc.5c0f@mx.google.com> Still, wow, that's... well... I think, outrageous. A man of such high respect can be hated just as much... enough to the point of receiving death threats. Interesting and scary. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" Message-ID: <806870.63325.qm@web162013.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Arielle, This email is a bit late, but I had to respond to this post. I happened to go through and clean out my inbox and happen to find it. The attorney Who was your role models was right when he told you to rise above your blindness and connect with the larger sighted society, but this does not mean that a blind person should completely disconnect themselves from the blind community. I would argue that good successful blind people are really needed in the blind community and frankly groups like the NFB and ACB are a good place blind people who are in search of success blind people as mentors. In addition, blindness is part of who we are and disconnecting the blind community is basically disconnecting a part of the the blind person is. Just my thoughts. Anmol I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers. Hellen Keller --- On Mon, 2/14/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > From: Arielle Silverman > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] unemployment rate > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date: Monday, February 14, 2011, 10:22 PM > Hi all, > > I think it's important to remember that those of us who are > NFB > members have much of our contact with other NFB members and > many NFB > members choose to work in blindness rehabilitation or > education > because they are drawn to helping resolve the social > obstacles that > blind people face. It's entirely possible that the majority > of the > blind people who don't join a blindness organization choose > not to > work in the blindness field. In fact, some blind people go > so far as > to avoid all contact with the blind community. One of my > only blind > role models growing up was an attorney who repeatedly told > me that the > best thing I could do for myself was to rise above my > blindness and > connect with other blind people as little as possible. It > apparently > worked for him as he is an intelligent, successful, happily > married > man, but I know that's certainly not the way for all of us. > Those of > us who choose to join organizations do so in large part > because we > want to affiliate with and reach out to other blind people, > so > naturally those of us who join consumer organizations will > be more > likely to find employment in the blindness field. > > Arielle > > On 2/14/11, Anmol Bhatia > wrote: > > Kirt, > > You raise some really good points and I happen to > totally agree with you. I > > think now with unemployment in general being high, > unemployment amongest the > > blind is higher then 70 percent. The 70 percent was > the unemployment in the > > 1990s and early 2000s when the national employment was > at about 4 to 5 > > percent. Of the 20 percent of blind people who are > employment half or more > > are working in a non-main stream environment meaning > blindness pesific or > > disability pesific agency or serving people who are > eather blind or > > disabled. Others go through a special training to > directly related to their > > blindness in order to work in a main-stream > organization. For example, those > > who are working for the IRS are working for a > main-stream organization, but > > most have gone through a special training at Lions > World Services for the > > Blind in order to do their job. The problem I  > see is that how many blind > > people can go to work for the Division Services for > the Blind or the > >  Indistry for the Blind? > > You are also correct in that we must consider that > some have more then just > > blind as a disability which effects  their > ability to hold a job. We have > > been discussing such issues in one of my class. > However, I see to many > > perfectly fine people who's disability is only > blindness waste away good > > potential. > > I could on all night discussing this, but these are > just my thoughts for > > now. > > > > Anmol > > I seldom think about my limitations, and they never > make me sad. Perhaps > > there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is > vague, like a breeze > > among flowers. > > Hellen Keller > > > > > > --- On Mon, 2/14/11, Kirt Manwaring > wrote: > > > >> From: Kirt Manwaring > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] unemployment rate > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students > mailing list" > >> > >> Date: Monday, February 14, 2011, 2:56 PM > >> Sean, > >>   I'd like to point out a few things. > >>   First...other disabilities, particularly > severe > >> cognative > >> disabilities, are extremely relivant to a person's > job > >> eligability.  I > >> don't want to sound prejudiced...but that's just > the way it > >> is.  I > >> know lots of people with severe mental > disabilities who > >> happen to be > >> blind as well and, while I'm not under-valuing > them as > >> people, I am > >> fully aware that some of those disabilities impact > a > >> person's ability > >> to work.  That's why I'm curious what the > unemployment > >> rate is for > >> people who are only blind...because, for a lot of > those > >> people, other > >> severe cognative disabilities are definitely a > factor in > >> their > >> unemployed status. > >>   As for the question about blind people working > in > >> the blindness > >> field...I'm a little lost as to why you think I > was > >> implying that was > >> inferior.  I'm just curious because that's where > most > >> blind people I > >> know work.  Indeed I'm hard-pressed to find a > totally > >> blind person in > >> my local area who I know that doesn't work in the > blindness > >> field...so > >> I think it's a legitimate question.  It's like if > I > >> were to ask what > >> percentage of the American working population > works in, > >> say, the > >> lobbying business.  That, to me, does not imply > the > >> inferiority or > >> superiority of that kind of work...it just means > I'm > >> interested to > >> know how many employed blind people have jobs in > the > >> blindness field. > >> Do you see my point?  I just want to know because > I'm > >> a blind person > >> and most blind people I know work primarily with > other > >> blind > >> people...so I wonder if anyone has any kind of > data to show > >> how many > >> blind people work outside of the blindness arena. > >> That's all, I just > >> want to know because I'm probably not going to > have a job > >> in the field > >> of blindness and I want to see where that puts > me, > >> percentage-wise. > >> In this case, I'm not looking down my nose at > anyone. > >>   All the best, > >> Kirt > >> > >> On 2/14/11, Sean Whalen > >> wrote: > >> > People who are not actively looking for > employment are > >> considered not to be > >> > part of the labor force. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Of course the 30% for nonblind folks' rate > of > >> nonparticipation is vastly > >> > higher than the rate that would apply to only > those, > >> say, under 65. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Blind people with other disabilities are > blind people > >> too, so why shouldn't > >> > we count them? Nonblind folks with other > disabilities > >> count in the general > >> > unemployment and labor force nonparticipation > rates. > >> Sure, you could figure > >> > out an unemployment rate for people who are > blind and > >> have no other > >> > disabilities, but how is that instructive? > You could > >> also find the rate for > >> > the blind people who have no additional > disability, a > >> college degree and > >> > IQ's above the national average, but then you > are hand > >> selecting who you are > >> > looking at and ignore the population as a > whole. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > I wouldn't trust numbers from AFB - they say > there are > >> 25 million blind or > >> > visually impaired people in the US. Right. > And NFB has > >> 50,000 members. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Finally, related to the initial post, why > does it > >> matter how many of the > >> > blind people with jobs work in the blindness > field? > >> That hearkens back to > >> > the ridiculous notion that these are somehow > lesser > >> jobs. Yes, it may be > >> > easier to get them because you are working > with and > >> being hired by people > >> > who have experience with blindness, and are > therefore > >> less likely to be > >> > freaked out by it, but they are not inferior > jobs, nor > >> are those who do them > >> > less successful people. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Sorry for the list of disjointed thoughts, > but take > >> them for what they're > >> > worth. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Take care, > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Sean > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or > get your > >> account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >> > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > your > >> account info for nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com > >> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > Phone:  602-502-2255 > Email: > nabs.president at gmail.com > Website: > www.nabslink.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com > From k7uij at panix.com Sun May 29 15:05:54 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 08:05:54 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] unemployment rate In-Reply-To: <806870.63325.qm@web162013.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <806870.63325.qm@web162013.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001e01cc1e11$e8a952f0$b9fbf8d0$@panix.com> WE in the Federation face a conundrum: on the one hand, our ultimate goal is the complete integration of the blind into society on a basis of equality with the sighted. This inevitably means that as we come closer to this goal and we presumably succeed at lowering the unemployment rate for the blind, the number of blind persons working in mainstream (as opposed to blindness-centered) ocupations, will increase as a fraction of the total employed blind population. If this does not occur, the question can be legitimately asked, I think, whether we've truly met the aforementioned goal of integration into society. On the other hand, if all of us work outside the "blindness system", where will blindness-specific training come from (and it will always be needed as we always will be a minority within society). As King Mongkut said in "the King and I": "It's a puzzlement!". Mike Freeman -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Anmol Bhatia Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2011 7:38 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] unemployment rate Arielle, This email is a bit late, but I had to respond to this post. I happened to go through and clean out my inbox and happen to find it. The attorney Who was your role models was right when he told you to rise above your blindness and connect with the larger sighted society, but this does not mean that a blind person should completely disconnect themselves from the blind community. I would argue that good successful blind people are really needed in the blind community and frankly groups like the NFB and ACB are a good place blind people who are in search of success blind people as mentors. In addition, blindness is part of who we are and disconnecting the blind community is basically disconnecting a part of the the blind person is. Just my thoughts. Anmol I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers. Hellen Keller --- On Mon, 2/14/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > From: Arielle Silverman > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] unemployment rate > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date: Monday, February 14, 2011, 10:22 PM > Hi all, > > I think it's important to remember that those of us who are > NFB > members have much of our contact with other NFB members and > many NFB > members choose to work in blindness rehabilitation or > education > because they are drawn to helping resolve the social > obstacles that > blind people face. It's entirely possible that the majority > of the > blind people who don't join a blindness organization choose > not to > work in the blindness field. In fact, some blind people go > so far as > to avoid all contact with the blind community. One of my > only blind > role models growing up was an attorney who repeatedly told > me that the > best thing I could do for myself was to rise above my > blindness and > connect with other blind people as little as possible. It > apparently > worked for him as he is an intelligent, successful, happily > married > man, but I know that's certainly not the way for all of us. > Those of > us who choose to join organizations do so in large part > because we > want to affiliate with and reach out to other blind people, > so > naturally those of us who join consumer organizations will > be more > likely to find employment in the blindness field. > > Arielle > > On 2/14/11, Anmol Bhatia > wrote: > > Kirt, > > You raise some really good points and I happen to > totally agree with you. I > > think now with unemployment in general being high, > unemployment amongest the > > blind is higher then 70 percent. The 70 percent was > the unemployment in the > > 1990s and early 2000s when the national employment was > at about 4 to 5 > > percent. Of the 20 percent of blind people who are > employment half or more > > are working in a non-main stream environment meaning > blindness pesific or > > disability pesific agency or serving people who are > eather blind or > > disabled. Others go through a special training to > directly related to their > > blindness in order to work in a main-stream > organization. For example, those > > who are working for the IRS are working for a > main-stream organization, but > > most have gone through a special training at Lions > World Services for the > > Blind in order to do their job. The problem I  > see is that how many blind > > people can go to work for the Division Services for > the Blind or the > >  Indistry for the Blind? > > You are also correct in that we must consider that > some have more then just > > blind as a disability which effects  their > ability to hold a job. We have > > been discussing such issues in one of my class. > However, I see to many > > perfectly fine people who's disability is only > blindness waste away good > > potential. > > I could on all night discussing this, but these are > just my thoughts for > > now. > > > > Anmol > > I seldom think about my limitations, and they never > make me sad. Perhaps > > there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is > vague, like a breeze > > among flowers. > > Hellen Keller > > > > > > --- On Mon, 2/14/11, Kirt Manwaring > wrote: > > > >> From: Kirt Manwaring > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] unemployment rate > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students > mailing list" > >> > >> Date: Monday, February 14, 2011, 2:56 PM > >> Sean, > >>   I'd like to point out a few things. > >>   First...other disabilities, particularly > severe > >> cognative > >> disabilities, are extremely relivant to a person's > job > >> eligability.  I > >> don't want to sound prejudiced...but that's just > the way it > >> is.  I > >> know lots of people with severe mental > disabilities who > >> happen to be > >> blind as well and, while I'm not under-valuing > them as > >> people, I am > >> fully aware that some of those disabilities impact > a > >> person's ability > >> to work.  That's why I'm curious what the > unemployment > >> rate is for > >> people who are only blind...because, for a lot of > those > >> people, other > >> severe cognative disabilities are definitely a > factor in > >> their > >> unemployed status. > >>   As for the question about blind people working > in > >> the blindness > >> field...I'm a little lost as to why you think I > was > >> implying that was > >> inferior.  I'm just curious because that's where > most > >> blind people I > >> know work.  Indeed I'm hard-pressed to find a > totally > >> blind person in > >> my local area who I know that doesn't work in the > blindness > >> field...so > >> I think it's a legitimate question.  It's like if > I > >> were to ask what > >> percentage of the American working population > works in, > >> say, the > >> lobbying business.  That, to me, does not imply > the > >> inferiority or > >> superiority of that kind of work...it just means > I'm > >> interested to > >> know how many employed blind people have jobs in > the > >> blindness field. > >> Do you see my point?  I just want to know because > I'm > >> a blind person > >> and most blind people I know work primarily with > other > >> blind > >> people...so I wonder if anyone has any kind of > data to show > >> how many > >> blind people work outside of the blindness arena. > >> That's all, I just > >> want to know because I'm probably not going to > have a job > >> in the field > >> of blindness and I want to see where that puts > me, > >> percentage-wise. > >> In this case, I'm not looking down my nose at > anyone. > >>   All the best, > >> Kirt > >> > >> On 2/14/11, Sean Whalen > >> wrote: > >> > People who are not actively looking for > employment are > >> considered not to be > >> > part of the labor force. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Of course the 30% for nonblind folks' rate > of > >> nonparticipation is vastly > >> > higher than the rate that would apply to only > those, > >> say, under 65. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Blind people with other disabilities are > blind people > >> too, so why shouldn't > >> > we count them? Nonblind folks with other > disabilities > >> count in the general > >> > unemployment and labor force nonparticipation > rates. > >> Sure, you could figure > >> > out an unemployment rate for people who are > blind and > >> have no other > >> > disabilities, but how is that instructive? > You could > >> also find the rate for > >> > the blind people who have no additional > disability, a > >> college degree and > >> > IQ's above the national average, but then you > are hand > >> selecting who you are > >> > looking at and ignore the population as a > whole. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > I wouldn't trust numbers from AFB - they say > there are > >> 25 million blind or > >> > visually impaired people in the US. Right. > And NFB has > >> 50,000 members. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Finally, related to the initial post, why > does it > >> matter how many of the > >> > blind people with jobs work in the blindness > field? > >> That hearkens back to > >> > the ridiculous notion that these are somehow > lesser > >> jobs. Yes, it may be > >> > easier to get them because you are working > with and > >> being hired by people > >> > who have experience with blindness, and are > therefore > >> less likely to be > >> > freaked out by it, but they are not inferior > jobs, nor > >> are those who do them > >> > less successful people. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Sorry for the list of disjointed thoughts, > but take > >> them for what they're > >> > worth. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Take care, > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Sean > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or > get your > >> account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com > >> > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > your > >> account info for nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo .com > >> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gma il.com > > > > > -- > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > Phone:  602-502-2255 > Email: > nabs.president at gmail.com > Website: > www.nabslink.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo .com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From debbiewunder at earthlink.net Sun May 29 15:54:58 2011 From: debbiewunder at earthlink.net (Debbie Wunder) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 10:54:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others References: <4de12bc7.4a8ee50a.2901.501b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: A good thing to read would be Marching Alone, Walking Together ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh Gregory" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 12:07 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > Is there a site with... the history of blind people and what they went > through? I'm curious now, this is a good thread. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Sat, 28 May 2011 09:52:47 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Although I was never subject to one, I can still remember when, at late as > the 1960's, welfare workers conducted "night raids" with the help of the > police wherein said workers would visit blind clients and go through their > homes to make sure that nothing had been bought that would indicate that > the > clients had unreported income. This extended even to such items as a new > dress. > > I echo Briley's sentiments that many today have no concept of what went > down > in the past. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Briley Pollard > Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:28 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > I think it is not always an appropriate comparison to say our struggle for > civil rights isn't completely parallel with the black American experience, > but we have struggled for civil rights. Go read some history on how blind > people have been treated by families and institutions over the years. > Blind > children were targets for sexual assault in extremely high numbers because > they were considered to be vulnerable. They were placed in horrific > living > conditions throughout history in institutions because families believed > that > blindness was equal to ineffectiveness, and that they'd never be able to > succeed or help out their relatives. As a people group, we have suffered > many indignities that I don't think the current generation of blind people > even come close to realizing. > > Best, > Briley > On May 28, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Darian Smith wrote: > > Mike: > African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term > themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon how > they were treated by whites up to that time. > It is curious that how african-americans were treated is always > one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our > comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder, > were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully protest > the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we safely > make those comparisons? unless I am missing something (I could be, > and it wouldn't be the first or last time I have), we have some > similarities with regards to civil rights, but largely our histories > were quite different and the scars, deaths,risks were felt on largely > different levels. > Just some thoughts on the matter,and I very much appreciate the > question. > Respectfully, > Darian > > On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman wrote: > Darian: > > What do you think African-americans would have said during the > 1950's and 1960's had one of their number said he/she would rather > date a Caucasian person because of the concern for two black persons > dating? > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Darian Smith > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Jedi, > Sure-let me see... > We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with > situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For > example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to "visually > impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person uses > products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille compass, > braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people who > don't utilize these things seem lesser for not. > I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman than > a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of two > blind people dating. > Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I would > like to think that it's huge to consider where each person is in > their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am fine > with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are > accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told that we > are "wrong" > for thinking like we do. > Does that make sense? > Respecgfully, > Darian > > > On 5/26/11, Darian Smith wrote: > Very good points. > We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to > remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one > member of a minority group address another member of that same group > if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should in > public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive image > of the rest of that group to society? > I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it > varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon > ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model that > positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that probably is > the healthiest way to approach this idea of perception-changing > that we think about alot, Does that make sense? > thoughts? > > On 5/26/11, Jedi wrote: > Excellent points. > > I'm going to add to that some. > > I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when > they attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or > discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of > such judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible > audience for the blind person in question. This audience is made of > both the blind and the sighted community and creates thoughts like > "What will my blind friends and colleagues think of me if I react this > or that way? > What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will > sighted bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose > situation where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that > limits problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also > creates a greater likelihood of negative response to perceived > threats to the blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in the > interaction. > So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person > to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept > boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved > with feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective > and graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person > who's offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom line > is that by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we > may be shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high > stakes situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability to > present the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to the > public. > > On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in > our heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us. > The truth is that there are limits to that responsibility. Sure, we > want to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone > else. The sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions of one > person. > But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that > except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our > population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that > the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're all > amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception to > a rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that > we're as diverse as they are are those who know how to deconstruct > society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough > diversity in our population to realize that they can't judge all of > us based on one > person. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: > That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of > taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we > lose sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a > therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is > not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your > place is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said, > if that person, after being shown compassion and alternative ways > of thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old > patterns as soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows a > lack of respect for everyone around them, including themselves. So > if a person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them! > That person will either fall hard when they find out their > parents/family members/significant other or what have you can't > take care of them forever, and then they'll realize what needs to > happen in due time, or they will get sick of the status quo and > want to change it. And if people hold it against a decent blind > person because they've met a person like that in the past, it's > not worth it to try and make them feel any differently. They will > either come around in time or they > won't. Choice is the key word here. > Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not > hurting anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose > out on a potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon > as you meet someone who's worth your time, you forget about that > other person real quick > > On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero wrote: > I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view > that we get from the public in general. Most people who are > sighted are not used to a blind person. You have to understand > that one blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now > reliable for what a person thinks about blind people. They are > the ones setting an example. So if you have a blind person who > smells bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or just do not have the > proper skills, the outside person will make an assumtion and say > that all blind people are like that. i'm not saying it's right > for blind people to call out other blind people with a skills set > that is lower then theirs, they're just calling them out because > they are representing blind people. It puts a bad label on us > blind people who do take care of ourselves, have the skills to be > independent and succeed. like i said, i'm not saying it's right > but I don't think us who do have the skills want to have a > negative conotation. Not all blind people poke their eyes, rock, > hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, do not clean their > own clothes, or anything like that. So to be part of a group > that's going to display such a view that is negative to the public, > we fall right behind that. Am I making sense? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepow > er > 17%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind > j > ed > i%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb > %4 > 0g > mail.com > > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: > http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: > http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb > %40g > mail.com > > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: > http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%4 > 0gmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/debbiewunder%40earthlink.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun May 29 16:00:18 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 10:00:18 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: <4de1c2c2.47fde50a.01bc.5c0f@mx.google.com> References: <4de1c2c2.47fde50a.01bc.5c0f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Josh, As sad as it is, it happens all the time. Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and so many others who've fought against the status quo get all sorts of resistance. In terms of ability, I think Jernigan was right up there with those guys...or pretty dang close! We're lucky noone acted on their death threats against him, like they did with dr. King and Gandhi. Warmly, Kirt On 5/28/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > Still, wow, that's... well... I think, outrageous. A man of > such high respect can be hated just as much... enough to the > point of receiving death threats. Interesting and scary. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Sat, 28 May 2011 20:43:52 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Oh yes -- as president of the NFB, he was a symbol of the > Movement and, as > such, was perceived as standing for a philosophy that threatened > the status > quo (including the self-proclaimed exalted status of various > agencies for > the blind). The hostility was often palpable and, make no > mistake, it took > its toll on the man. Whether he'd ever have admitted it or not, > it bothered > him a lot to receive such hostility that was almost pathological > in its > extremity. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Josh Gregory > Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 8:20 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Hi, such a respectable person as Dr. Journigan receiving death > threats? To > me that is unheard of that such... um... deplorable things > could happen to > us blind people. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jedi To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 28 May 2011 22:17:13 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Federationists have received death threats in the past; i can > recall from my > studies that Rammi Rabby and Dr. Jernigan did. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 28, 2011, at 12:47 AM, "Mike Freeman" wrote: > > Darian: > > WE of NFB often compare ourselves to African-americans because > we consider > ourselves, like them, to be a minority group within the larger > society. > Certainly, no one would argue that blind people were attacked > with > fire-hoses or lynched while trying to exercise their rights. I > do know of > plenty of instances when blind persons were arrested for refusing > to move > from exit-row seating to which they were legitimately assigned on > airplanes > and I know of one incident wherein a blind person was severely > beaten for > being a NFB member. > > I believe there's a bit about this comparison in Dr. Jernigan's > 1976 banquet > speech, "Of visions and Vultures". > > I appreciate your question to clarify the comparison. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith > Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 10:23 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in > others > > Mike: > African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term > themselves)would > not have been too keen on the idea based upon how they were > treated by > whites up to that time. > It is curious that how african-americans were treated is > always > one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our > comparisons > in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder, were > blind people > beatin and hosed down when they peacefully protest the unjust > ways they > were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we safely make those > comparisons? > unless I am missing something (I could be, and it wouldn't be > the first or > last time I have), we have some similarities with regards to > civil rights, > but largely our histories were quite different and the scars, > deaths,risks > were felt on largely different levels. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 29 16:07:03 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 12:07:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Message-ID: <4de26f33.524ee50a.3050.5f96@mx.google.com> Yeah we're learning about that in history (it's almost the end of the school year, yay!) and it's sad what they did to people. The Little Rock Nine, does anybody remember that one? Well, there's a lot of history to show that... African Americans were segregated and as so, treated very badly. Rosa Parks was the first to challenge that. I think... but that's offtopic. I guess my point is: While I knew about the history of African Americans, I didn't know that us blind people went through the same things. Josh PS: Sorry if that was just a bit offtopic. sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: Still, wow, that's... well... I think, outrageous. A man of such high respect can be hated just as much... enough to the point of receiving death threats. Interesting and scary. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" The national Federation of the Blind of Washington will hold a drawing, the winner of which will receive an iPod Touch 4th Generation 64G. This iPod is fully accessible. The drawing will take place at noon on July 8, 2011, at the annual convention of the National Federation of the Blind in Orlando, Fl. You do not need to be present to win. Tickets cost $5 each or 5 for $20. If you will not be attending the convention but still wish to enter the drawing, you may send a note giving the number of tickets you wish to purchase, your name and your telephone number and/or email address along with payment to: Michael Freeman; 3101 NE 87th Ave; Vancouver, WA 98662-6832. Your note *must* be accompanied by payment. WE prefer that payment be in the form of a check, Pay to the Order of "the National Federation of the Blind of Washington" or "NFBW". (the NFB of Washington does *not* have PayPal and although I have a personal PayPal account, there's no truly easy/foolproof way to assure the IRS and state authorities governing charities that electronic payments would be used for ticket purchases.) If you have questions, please send them to me, Mike Freeman, at . Good luck! Michael Freeman, President national Federation of the blind of Washington From k7uij at panix.com Sun May 29 17:21:50 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 10:21:50 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: <4de26f33.524ee50a.3050.5f96@mx.google.com> References: <4de26f33.524ee50a.3050.5f96@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <004001cc1e24$e5f49890$b1ddc9b0$@panix.com> Actually, according to David Paterson, recently Governor of new York, Rosa Parks wasn't the first person actually to refuse to go to the back of the bus. Earlier that year, another African-american lady would have tested the system but she had had a child out of wedlock and so NAACP chose not to make her the test case for the segregation law, the mores of the time being different than they are today. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Josh Gregory Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2011 9:07 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Yeah we're learning about that in history (it's almost the end of the school year, yay!) and it's sad what they did to people. The Little Rock Nine, does anybody remember that one? Well, there's a lot of history to show that... African Americans were segregated and as so, treated very badly. Rosa Parks was the first to challenge that. I think... but that's offtopic. I guess my point is: While I knew about the history of African Americans, I didn't know that us blind people went through the same things. Josh PS: Sorry if that was just a bit offtopic. sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: Still, wow, that's... well... I think, outrageous. A man of such high respect can be hated just as much... enough to the point of receiving death threats. Interesting and scary. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" References: <4de1c2c2.47fde50a.01bc.5c0f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <004101cc1e25$4249fc70$c6ddf550$@panix.com> Yup. And I think Dr. King Jr. *knew* he was going to die. The night before he was shot, he gave a speech wherein he said "I've been to the mountaintop and nothing can touch me now ...". by this he meant that he was not afraid so even if he was assassinated, the thought didn't bother him so he was invulnerable to pressure to sit down and shut up. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2011 9:00 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Josh, As sad as it is, it happens all the time. Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and so many others who've fought against the status quo get all sorts of resistance. In terms of ability, I think Jernigan was right up there with those guys...or pretty dang close! We're lucky noone acted on their death threats against him, like they did with dr. King and Gandhi. Warmly, Kirt On 5/28/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > Still, wow, that's... well... I think, outrageous. A man of such > high respect can be hated just as much... enough to the point of > receiving death threats. Interesting and scary. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Sat, 28 May 2011 20:43:52 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Oh yes -- as president of the NFB, he was a symbol of the Movement > and, as such, was perceived as standing for a philosophy that > threatened the status quo (including the self-proclaimed exalted > status of various agencies for the blind). The hostility was often > palpable and, make no mistake, it took its toll on the man. Whether > he'd ever have admitted it or not, it bothered him a lot to receive > such hostility that was almost pathological in its extremity. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Josh Gregory > Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 8:20 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Hi, such a respectable person as Dr. Journigan receiving death > threats? To me that is unheard of that such... um... deplorable > things could happen to us blind people. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jedi To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Federationists have received death threats in the past; i can recall > from my studies that Rammi Rabby and Dr. Jernigan did. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 28, 2011, at 12:47 AM, "Mike Freeman" wrote: > > Darian: > > WE of NFB often compare ourselves to African-americans because we > consider ourselves, like them, to be a minority group within the > larger society. > Certainly, no one would argue that blind people were attacked with > fire-hoses or lynched while trying to exercise their rights. I do > know of plenty of instances when blind persons were arrested for > refusing to move from exit-row seating to which they were legitimately > assigned on airplanes and I know of one incident wherein a blind > person was severely beaten for being a NFB member. > > I believe there's a bit about this comparison in Dr. Jernigan's > 1976 banquet > speech, "Of visions and Vultures". > > I appreciate your question to clarify the comparison. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith > Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 10:23 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Mike: > African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term > themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon how > they were treated by whites up to that time. > It is curious that how african-americans were treated is > always > one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our > comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder, > were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully protest > the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we safely > make those comparisons? > unless I am missing something (I could be, and it wouldn't be the > first or last time I have), we have some similarities with regards > to civil rights, but largely our histories were quite different and > the scars, deaths,risks were felt on largely different levels. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun May 29 17:24:08 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 13:24:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Message-ID: <4de28144.1c4de50a.571d.6a28@mx.google.com> So wait, um... interesting. So that's not how it happened? The textbooks make it seem that way... I mean Parks not giving up her seat being the first one. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" wrote: Still, wow, that's... well... I think, outrageous. A man of such high respect can be hated just as much... enough to the point of receiving death threats. Interesting and scary. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" He was brave, for what he did then, * very * brave. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" wrote: Still, wow, that's... well... I think, outrageous. A man of such high respect can be hated just as much... enough to the point of receiving death threats. Interesting and scary. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" References: <4de28144.1c4de50a.571d.6a28@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <96AA0E05-DC43-4D59-9E80-C973DEC2BFB9@gmail.com> I think a lot of people may have done it but no one was as high profile as her. You have to realize news papers covered her story, but they didn't cover the others. On May 29, 2011, at 1:24 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: > So wait, um... interesting. So that's not how it happened? The textbooks make it seem that way... I mean Parks not giving up her seat being the first one. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date sent: Sun, 29 May 2011 10:21:50 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Actually, according to David Paterson, recently Governor of new York, Rosa > Parks wasn't the first person actually to refuse to go to the back of the > bus. Earlier that year, another African-american lady would have tested the > system but she had had a child out of wedlock and so NAACP chose not to make > her the test case for the segregation law, the mores of the time being > different than they are today. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Josh Gregory > Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2011 9:07 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Yeah we're learning about that in history (it's almost the end of the school > year, yay!) and it's sad what they did to people. The Little Rock Nine, > does anybody remember that one? Well, there's a lot of history to show > that... African Americans were segregated and as so, treated very badly. > Rosa Parks was the first to challenge that. I think... but that's > offtopic. I guess my point is: While I knew about the history of African > Americans, I didn't know that us blind people went through the same things. > Josh > PS: Sorry if that was just a bit offtopic. > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 29 May 2011 10:00:18 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Josh, > As sad as it is, it happens all the time. Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and > so many others who've fought against the status quo get all sorts of > resistance. In terms of ability, I think Jernigan was right up there with > those guys...or pretty dang close! We're lucky noone acted on their death > threats against him, like they did with dr. > King > and Gandhi. > Warmly, > Kirt > > On 5/28/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > Still, wow, that's... well... I think, outrageous. A man of such high > respect can be hated just as much... enough to the point of receiving > death threats. Interesting and scary. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Freeman" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Sat, 28 May 2011 20:43:52 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Oh yes -- as president of the NFB, he was a symbol of the Movement and, as > such, was perceived as standing for a philosophy that threatened the status > quo (including the self-proclaimed exalted status of various agencies for > the blind). The hostility was often palpable and, make no mistake, it took > its toll on the man. Whether he'd ever have admitted it or not, it > bothered him a lot to receive such hostility that was almost pathological > in its extremity. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Josh Gregory > Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 8:20 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Hi, such a respectable person as Dr. Journigan receiving death threats? > To me that is unheard of that such... um... deplorable things could > happen to us blind people. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jedi To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 28 May 2011 22:17:13 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Federationists have received death threats in the past; i can recall from > my studies that Rammi Rabby and Dr. Jernigan did. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 28, 2011, at 12:47 AM, "Mike Freeman" wrote: > > Darian: > > WE of NFB often compare ourselves to African-americans because we > consider ourselves, like them, to be a minority group within the larger > society. > Certainly, no one would argue that blind people were attacked with > fire-hoses or lynched while trying to exercise their rights. I do know of > plenty of instances when blind persons were arrested for refusing to move > from exit-row seating to which they were legitimately assigned on airplanes > and I know of one incident wherein a blind person was severely beaten for > being a NFB member. > > I believe there's a bit about this comparison in Dr. > Jernigan's > 1976 banquet > speech, "Of visions and Vultures". > > I appreciate your question to clarify the comparison. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith > Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 10:23 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others > > Mike: > African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term themselves)would > not have been too keen on the idea based upon how they were treated by > whites up to that time. > It is curious that how african-americans were treated is > always > one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our comparisons > in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder, were blind people > beatin and hosed down when they peacefully protest the unjust ways they > were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we safely make those comparisons? > unless I am missing something (I could be, and it wouldn't be the first > or last time I have), we have some similarities with regards to civil > rights, but largely our histories were quite different and the scars, > deaths,risks were felt on largely different levels. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40p > anix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From k7uij at panix.com Sun May 29 17:54:14 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 10:54:14 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others In-Reply-To: <4de28144.1c4de50a.571d.6a28@mx.google.com> References: <4de28144.1c4de50a.571d.6a28@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <006101cc1e29$6c83ef60$458bce20$@panix.com> Actually, the NAACP had been planning to test the law in just that way since, I think, 1953, and was just waiting for the proper circumstances. I dare say little has been said about this because the NAACP didn't want to give notice of its strategy (it might prove useful again) and, as I said, because the sexual mores of the time would have overshadowed the effect of challenging the law in the minds of the public. There's often a lot more to history than the conventional wisdom but it sometimes gets so convoluted that it doesn't make it to the general mythos. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Josh Gregory Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2011 10:24 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others So wait, um... interesting. So that's not how it happened? The textbooks make it seem that way... I mean Parks not giving up her seat being the first one. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" wrote: Still, wow, that's... well... I think, outrageous. A man of such high respect can be hated just as much... enough to the point of receiving death threats. Interesting and scary. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" Greetings fellow students! The Nabs website committee needs your help with the following: Nabs is looking for photos from students and student divisions for inclusion on our nabslink (www.nabslink.org) website! We would love to have photos of you( with your cane or dog), in the community, on campus, or at a student seminar. Photos should be of good quality and can be sent to nabslink web coordinator Meghan Whalen at: mewhalen at gmail.com. Please remember to submit photos with a caption briefly explaining location, activity, and persons included in the photograph(s). Additionally, should you have any expertise in websites, please feel free to contact Meghan about that, too. Thank you, and we appreciate your help! The National Association of Blind Students From adrimpc80 at gmail.com Mon May 30 16:25:02 2011 From: adrimpc80 at gmail.com (ADRIANA PULIDO) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 11:25:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] An additional question about selecting universety Message-ID: Hi all! As I told you some time ago, I'm currently choosing a university to study a Master's Degree. I have to think about it carefully, since I'm going to spend two years there. So far, I have been offered admision in the University of Arkansas at Fayetteville. According to what I've been searching, that city is small and rural. I also have university optiones at Gainesville, Tampa, Dekalb, and philadelphia; but I'm still waiting for them to answer. Here is the question: Acorrding to your experience, do you think that people with disabilities are likely to be better received in big cities than in small ones? Are we more exposed to prejudices in small cities? Thank you in advance for your comments and suggestions! -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga en Inglés y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright para Maestría. From davidb521 at gmail.com Mon May 30 16:32:16 2011 From: davidb521 at gmail.com (David) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 11:32:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] An additional question about selecting university In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4de3c6a2.0203650a.2d3b.ffffc0a2@mx.google.com> Hi. Personally, I wouldn't base my university decision on whether I will be subject to prejudice, unless the environment has a strong reputation for extreme prejudice against blind people. You should go to the university that feels right for you. I really don't think that the size of the city will make a whole lot of difference, but I suppose that in a small town, more people will see you, and become used to seeing a blind person. However, in a larger city, there is a more diverse population, so you may not stand out as much. Best of luck to you. David -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf of ADRIANA PULIDO Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 11:25 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] An additional question about selecting universety Hi all! As I told you some time ago, I'm currently choosing a university to study a Master's Degree. I have to think about it carefully, since I'm going to spend two years there. So far, I have been offered admision in the University of Arkansas at Fayetteville. According to what I've been searching, that city is small and rural. I also have university optiones at Gainesville, Tampa, Dekalb, and philadelphia; but I'm still waiting for them to answer. Here is the question: Acorrding to your experience, do you think that people with disabilities are likely to be better received in big cities than in small ones? Are we more exposed to prejudices in small cities? Thank you in advance for your comments and suggestions! -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga en Inglés y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright para Maestría. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidb521%40gmail.co m From k7uij at panix.com Mon May 30 18:43:44 2011 From: k7uij at panix.com (Mike Freeman) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 11:43:44 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] An additional question about selecting universety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006401cc1ef9$8167b850$843728f0$@panix.com> I echo Dave's comments. The one comment I'll make is that Philadelphia is *wonderfully* easy to get around. The public transportation is good, the directions people tend to give you work admirably well most of the time and, most importantly for me, traffic signals work the way I remember them working thirty years ago around the rest of the country -- with lights changing at regular intervals and most predictably. Mike -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ADRIANA PULIDO Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 9:25 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] An additional question about selecting universety Hi all! As I told you some time ago, I'm currently choosing a university to study a Master's Degree. I have to think about it carefully, since I'm going to spend two years there. So far, I have been offered admision in the University of Arkansas at Fayetteville. According to what I've been searching, that city is small and rural. I also have university optiones at Gainesville, Tampa, Dekalb, and philadelphia; but I'm still waiting for them to answer. Here is the question: Acorrding to your experience, do you think that people with disabilities are likely to be better received in big cities than in small ones? Are we more exposed to prejudices in small cities? Thank you in advance for your comments and suggestions! -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga en Inglés y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright para Maestría. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon May 30 20:09:41 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 16:09:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An additional question about selecting universety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Adriana, I think anywhere you will have to educate the public you encounter. That said this is my opinion. My school was on the outskirts of a city-- Arlington. The university shuttle took students to the nearest metro station. IMO the advantage of a big city such as Philadelphia is the transportation; more walkable sidewalks, attractions in walking distance, and of course more pedestrians out and about and you will be able to ask more questions then. Plus there is safety in numbers. You will be able to walk up to a intersection and ask passers-by questions or what street you are at. But in a little town or rural community, you do not have the pedestrian flow or the traffic flow. In small cities when I attempted to do mobility it was problematic. We are taught to listen to traffic, but in small communities, you can stand for a long time at the intersection and have little or no traffic to judge the light! Personally, I don't like running across the street in a gap of traffic! I want to judge the traffic and ascertain the light. In big cities such as DC, New York and Philadelphia, the traffic signals also work on a fixed time. This means that they change lights at regular intervals. So for instance, pedestrians have 15 seconds to cross a given street and it stays that way. Now a days, many little cities/towns base traffic signals on amount of traffic via a computer chip. So the heavier vehicle traveled street has more time. As a pedestrian, you would have to push a pedestrian button to get a walk phase so the light changes for you to cross the street. These are actuated signals and are more common in small communities. Big cities are also a grid pattern and may make it easier to travel. I also think that big cities or counties may be more disabled friendly because there are simply more people with disablities around to advocate for change. So my opinion is there are more opportunities in a big city; but don't base your decission totally on it; see about the course of study and other barriers like transit you will be able to work out; such as cabs or car pooling with friends. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: ADRIANA PULIDO Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 12:25 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] An additional question about selecting universety Hi all! As I told you some time ago, I'm currently choosing a university to study a Master's Degree. I have to think about it carefully, since I'm going to spend two years there. So far, I have been offered admision in the University of Arkansas at Fayetteville. According to what I've been searching, that city is small and rural. I also have university optiones at Gainesville, Tampa, Dekalb, and philadelphia; but I'm still waiting for them to answer. Here is the question: Acorrding to your experience, do you think that people with disabilities are likely to be better received in big cities than in small ones? Are we more exposed to prejudices in small cities? Thank you in advance for your comments and suggestions! -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga en Inglés y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright para Maestría. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From ignasicambra at gmail.com Mon May 30 20:50:17 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 16:50:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An additional question about selecting universety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <592D6F8C-EC84-4EAC-8E7D-F2F28F750B36@gmail.com> I think it just depends on each particular city... There are large cities with terrible transportation and small towns with great transportation. I went to school in Bloomington, Indiana. Transportation works really well in there, and the city is not that big. It's basically a college town, with 30000+ students and a huge campus. With my guide dog I found things to be just fine in there. I could walk to places and if not there were city and university buses. On May 30, 2011, at 4:09 PM, wrote: > Adriana, > I think anywhere you will have to educate the public you encounter. > That said this is my opinion. My school was on the outskirts of a city-- > Arlington. > The university shuttle took students to the nearest metro station. > IMO the advantage > of a big city such as Philadelphia is the transportation; more walkable > sidewalks, attractions in walking distance, and > of course more pedestrians out and about and you will be able to ask more > questions then. Plus there is safety in numbers. You will be able to walk > up to a intersection and ask passers-by questions or what street you are at. > But in a little town or rural community, you do not have the pedestrian flow > or the traffic flow. In small cities when I attempted to do mobility it > was problematic. We are taught to listen to traffic, but in small > communities, you can stand for a long time at the intersection and > have little or no traffic to judge the light! Personally, I don't like > running across the street in a gap of traffic! I want to judge the traffic > and ascertain the light. > In big cities such as DC, New York and Philadelphia, the traffic signals also work on a fixed time. This means that they change lights at regular intervals. So for instance, pedestrians have 15 seconds to cross a given street and it stays that way. Now a days, many little cities/towns base traffic signals on amount of traffic via a computer chip. So the heavier vehicle traveled street has more time. > As a pedestrian, you would have to push a pedestrian button to get a walk phase so the light changes for you to cross the street. > These are actuated signals and are more common in small communities. > Big cities are also a grid pattern and may make it easier to travel. I also think that big cities or counties may be more disabled friendly because there are simply more people with disablities around to advocate for change. > > So my opinion is there are more opportunities in a big city; but don't base your decission totally on it; see about the course of study and other barriers like transit you will be able to work out; such as cabs or car pooling with friends. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- From: ADRIANA PULIDO > Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 12:25 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] An additional question about selecting universety > > Hi all! > > As I told you some time ago, I'm currently choosing a university to > study a Master's Degree. I have to think about it carefully, since I'm > going to spend two years there. So far, I have been offered admision > in the University of Arkansas at Fayetteville. According to what I've > been searching, that city is small and rural. > I also have university optiones at Gainesville, Tampa, Dekalb, and > philadelphia; but I'm still waiting for them to answer. > Here is the question: > Acorrding to your experience, do you think that people with > disabilities are likely to be better received in big cities than in > small ones? > Are we more exposed to prejudices in small cities? > > Thank you in advance for your comments and suggestions! > > -- > Adriana Pulido > Filóloga en Inglés y músico de la Universidad > Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright para Maestría. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From jj at bestmidi.com Mon May 30 21:37:19 2011 From: jj at bestmidi.com (J.J. Meddaugh) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 17:37:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Cisco Academy for the Vision Impaired now accepting applications for second semester Message-ID: This is a great program. From: "Grace Hoath" Subject: Cisco Academy for the Vision Impaired now accepting applications for second semester Just wanted to let you know that we are now accepting enrollments for classes starting the last week of July. Cost is $500, but we are offering students who are paying out of pocket scholarships that bring the cost down to $150 which can be paid off if necisary. > For more information our podcast is located at: > http://cucat.org/podcast/CAVI%20Potential%20new%20students2011.mp3 our > website is: www.ciscovision.org and we are emailable at > caviinfo at cucat.org. > Thanks so much, > Grace > > From marsha.drenth at gmail.com Mon May 30 22:01:49 2011 From: marsha.drenth at gmail.com (Marsha Drenth) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 18:01:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An additional question about selecting universety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <032F1762FB48426C850226DADCD33B40@Cptr233> In big cities, as a blind person, your able to blend in better. Your one of a number of blind people who might live in the city, thus also being able to connect with them. In big cities blind people are not seen all the time, but there is a greater chance of there being blind people living around or near. I would also say that this cuts down the obstacles that a blind person might have. Just my opinion and two cents, marsha -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ADRIANA PULIDO Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 12:25 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] An additional question about selecting universety Hi all! As I told you some time ago, I'm currently choosing a university to study a Master's Degree. I have to think about it carefully, since I'm going to spend two years there. So far, I have been offered admision in the University of Arkansas at Fayetteville. According to what I've been searching, that city is small and rural. I also have university optiones at Gainesville, Tampa, Dekalb, and philadelphia; but I'm still waiting for them to answer. Here is the question: Acorrding to your experience, do you think that people with disabilities are likely to be better received in big cities than in small ones? Are we more exposed to prejudices in small cities? Thank you in advance for your comments and suggestions! -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga en Inglés y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright para Maestría. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai l.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6165 (20110530) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6166 (20110530) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6166 (20110530) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From adrimpc80 at gmail.com Tue May 31 00:41:40 2011 From: adrimpc80 at gmail.com (ADRIANA PULIDO) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 19:41:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] An additional question about selecting university In-Reply-To: <4de3c6a2.0203650a.2d3b.ffffc0a2@mx.google.com> References: <4de3c6a2.0203650a.2d3b.ffffc0a2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi David, I just want to clarify something: obviously, I wouldn't choose my university based on possible prejudices against blind people. I ask the question, first, because I've don't know the US, and second, because I wouldn't like to make a quick decision and then regret. Best regards, > -- > Adriana Pulido > Filóloga en Inglés y músico de la Universidad > Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright para Maestría. 2011/5/30, David : > Hi. Personally, I wouldn't base my university decision on whether I will be > subject to prejudice, unless the environment has a strong reputation for > extreme prejudice against blind people. You should go to the university that > feels right for you. I really don't think that the size of the city will > make a whole lot of difference, but I suppose that in a small town, more > people will see you, and become used to seeing a blind person. However, in a > larger city, there is a more diverse population, so you may not stand out as > much. Best of luck to you. > David > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > of ADRIANA PULIDO > Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 11:25 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] An additional question about selecting universety > > Hi all! > > As I told you some time ago, I'm currently choosing a university to > study a Master's Degree. I have to think about it carefully, since I'm > going to spend two years there. So far, I have been offered admision > in the University of Arkansas at Fayetteville. According to what I've > been searching, that city is small and rural. > I also have university optiones at Gainesville, Tampa, Dekalb, and > philadelphia; but I'm still waiting for them to answer. > Here is the question: > Acorrding to your experience, do you think that people with > disabilities are likely to be better received in big cities than in > small ones? > Are we more exposed to prejudices in small cities? > > Thank you in advance for your comments and suggestions! > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidb521%40gmail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrimpc80%40gmail.com > -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga en Inglés y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright para Maestría. From adrimpc80 at gmail.com Tue May 31 00:45:09 2011 From: adrimpc80 at gmail.com (ADRIANA PULIDO) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 19:45:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] An additional question about selecting universety In-Reply-To: <032F1762FB48426C850226DADCD33B40@Cptr233> References: <032F1762FB48426C850226DADCD33B40@Cptr233> Message-ID: Thank you all! 2011/5/30, Marsha Drenth : > In big cities, as a blind person, your able to blend in better. Your one of > a number of blind people who might live in the city, thus also being able to > connect with them. In big cities blind people are not seen all the time, but > there is a greater chance of there being blind people living around or near. > I would also say that this cuts down the obstacles that a blind person might > have. > > Just my opinion and two cents, > marsha > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of ADRIANA PULIDO > Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 12:25 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] An additional question about selecting universety > > Hi all! > > As I told you some time ago, I'm currently choosing a university to > study a Master's Degree. I have to think about it carefully, since I'm > going to spend two years there. So far, I have been offered admision > in the University of Arkansas at Fayetteville. According to what I've > been searching, that city is small and rural. > I also have university optiones at Gainesville, Tampa, Dekalb, and > philadelphia; but I'm still waiting for them to answer. > Here is the question: > Acorrding to your experience, do you think that people with > disabilities are likely to be better received in big cities than in > small ones? > Are we more exposed to prejudices in small cities? > > Thank you in advance for your comments and suggestions! > > -- > Adriana Pulido > Filóloga en Inglés y músico de la Universidad > Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright para Maestría. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai > l.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 6165 (20110530) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 6166 (20110530) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 6166 (20110530) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrimpc80%40gmail.com > -- Adriana Pulido Filóloga en Inglés y músico de la Universidad Nacional de Colombia. Becaria Fulbright para Maestría. From philso1003 at gmail.com Tue May 31 07:18:55 2011 From: philso1003 at gmail.com (Philip S) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 03:18:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen Message-ID: Hi all, I'm doing research and am curious to know your thoughts on touch screen. How do you feel about touch screen as more and more devices adopt this interface? Do you love it, embrace it, hate it, a pain in the rear, or something in between...? Please share how you feel about it and be as thorough as you wish. Also, what kind of notetaker, PDA, mobile devices and mobile phones do you use now? Thanks. Phil From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue May 31 07:25:11 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 02:25:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Touch Screens are of the devil! Blind people, like myself, can't use them. Buttons are better. I don't have any notetakers now, but it's Pac Mate, all the way! Blessings, Joshua On 5/31/11, Philip S wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm doing research and am curious to know your thoughts on touch > screen. How do you feel about touch screen as more and more devices > adopt this interface? Do you love it, embrace it, hate it, a pain in > the rear, or something in between...? Please share how you feel about > it and be as thorough as you wish. > > Also, what kind of notetaker, PDA, mobile devices and mobile phones do > you use now? > > Thanks. > > Phil > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Tue May 31 07:37:33 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 03:37:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen Message-ID: <4de49acc.9c82e50a.576e.ffff8c19@mx.google.com> What about the IPod, IPad, those types of devices? I have used these, and like them. The voiceover is helpful, and, IMO, is a workable solution for this type of product/ device. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: Hi all, I'm doing research and am curious to know your thoughts on touch screen. How do you feel about touch screen as more and more devices adopt this interface? Do you love it, embrace it, hate it, a pain in the rear, or something in between...? Please share how you feel about it and be as thorough as you wish. Also, what kind of notetaker, PDA, mobile devices and mobile phones do you use now? Thanks. Phil _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue May 31 07:41:55 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 02:41:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen In-Reply-To: <4de49acc.9c82e50a.576e.ffff8c19@mx.google.com> References: <4de49acc.9c82e50a.576e.ffff8c19@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I've had issues with touch screens on cell phones. I haven't used an IPod. Blessings, Joshua On 5/31/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > What about the IPod, IPad, those types of devices? I have used > these, and like them. The voiceover is helpful, and, IMO, is a > workable solution for this type of product/ device. > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joshua Lester To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Tue, 31 May 2011 02:25:11 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen > > Touch Screens are of the devil! > Blind people, like myself, can't use them. > Buttons are better. > I don't have any notetakers now, but it's Pac Mate, all the way! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 5/31/11, Philip S wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm doing research and am curious to know your thoughts on touch > screen. How do you feel about touch screen as more and more > devices > adopt this interface? Do you love it, embrace it, hate it, a > pain in > the rear, or something in between...? Please share how you feel > about > it and be as thorough as you wish. > > Also, what kind of notetaker, PDA, mobile devices and mobile > phones do > you use now? > > Thanks. > > Phil > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 > 62%40students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Tue May 31 07:59:36 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 03:59:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen Message-ID: <4de49ff7.224ee50a.1b1e.ffff9044@mx.google.com> I see it as doable. Can't stand smart phones myself. But IPods seems usable. Tapping an item once gives a description, tapping it twice activates it. In this way you are able to learn where items are and become familiar with the interface. I have an html file that I saved of how to use Voiceover, (basically the gestures and stuff) let me know if you want me to send it to you offlist. And actually, anybody that does want that can let me know, just use my email address. Josh sent from my Apex Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: What about the IPod, IPad, those types of devices? I have used these, and like them. The voiceover is helpful, and, IMO, is a workable solution for this type of product/ device. Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: Hi all, I'm doing research and am curious to know your thoughts on touch screen. How do you feel about touch screen as more and more devices adopt this interface? Do you love it, embrace it, hate it, a pain in the rear, or something in between...? Please share how you feel about it and be as thorough as you wish. Also, what kind of notetaker, PDA, mobile devices and mobile phones do you use now? Thanks. Phil _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From aaatlantic at aol.com Tue May 31 13:35:02 2011 From: aaatlantic at aol.com (Alexander) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 09:35:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001101cc1f97$8b9f08c0$a2dd1a40$@com> I think they are awesome devices and blind people can use them because they can. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 3:25 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen Touch Screens are of the devil! Blind people, like myself, can't use them. Buttons are better. I don't have any notetakers now, but it's Pac Mate, all the way! Blessings, Joshua On 5/31/11, Philip S wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm doing research and am curious to know your thoughts on touch > screen. How do you feel about touch screen as more and more devices > adopt this interface? Do you love it, embrace it, hate it, a pain in > the rear, or something in between...? Please share how you feel about > it and be as thorough as you wish. > > Also, what kind of notetaker, PDA, mobile devices and mobile phones do > you use now? > > Thanks. > > Phil > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40studen ts.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aaatlantic%40aol.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3666 - Release Date: 05/28/11 18:34:00 From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue May 31 13:50:41 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 08:50:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen In-Reply-To: <001101cc1f97$8b9f08c0$a2dd1a40$@com> References: <001101cc1f97$8b9f08c0$a2dd1a40$@com> Message-ID: They've been a pain, for me. I guess, it's because I'm not used to them. Blessings, Joshua On 5/31/11, Alexander wrote: > I think they are awesome devices and blind people can use them because they > can. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Joshua Lester > Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 3:25 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen > > Touch Screens are of the devil! > Blind people, like myself, can't use them. > Buttons are better. > I don't have any notetakers now, but it's Pac Mate, all the way! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 5/31/11, Philip S wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I'm doing research and am curious to know your thoughts on touch >> screen. How do you feel about touch screen as more and more devices >> adopt this interface? Do you love it, embrace it, hate it, a pain in >> the rear, or something in between...? Please share how you feel about >> it and be as thorough as you wish. >> >> Also, what kind of notetaker, PDA, mobile devices and mobile phones do >> you use now? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Phil >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40studen > ts.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aaatlantic%40aol.com > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3666 - Release Date: 05/28/11 > 18:34:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From hannahgf11 at gmail.com Tue May 31 14:25:07 2011 From: hannahgf11 at gmail.com (Hannah Furney) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 09:25:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002b01cc1f9e$8b552a50$a1ff7ef0$@gmail.com> Hi. I received an Ipod Touch in February as a gift. I really like the touch screen. I also have a BrailleNote Classic. I really like taking notes and writing documents on my BrailleNote. Thanks, Hannah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Philip S Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 2:19 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen Hi all, I'm doing research and am curious to know your thoughts on touch screen. How do you feel about touch screen as more and more devices adopt this interface? Do you love it, embrace it, hate it, a pain in the rear, or something in between...? Please share how you feel about it and be as thorough as you wish. Also, what kind of notetaker, PDA, mobile devices and mobile phones do you use now? Thanks. Phil _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hannahgf11%40gmail.c om From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue May 31 15:23:27 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 09:23:27 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen In-Reply-To: <002b01cc1f9e$8b552a50$a1ff7ef0$@gmail.com> References: <002b01cc1f9e$8b552a50$a1ff7ef0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Nabsters, I used to hate them with a fiery passion. I can totally understand where Joshua's coming from cause I was there before I got my IPod touch. And, honestly, it's still not as natural for me as a good old notetaker, or regular keyboard. But with voiceover, they work and they work wonderfully, even if it still feels a little strange to me sometimes cause it's so unlike anything I've used before. But Apple's certainly shown that touch screens can be made accessible. Will it ever be my prefered interface? Probably not. Do I still love it and use it all the time? Absolutely. And now that I have a bluetooth keyboard for my ipod touch, it's even easier. HTH, Kirt On 5/31/11, Hannah Furney wrote: > Hi. I received an Ipod Touch in February as a gift. I really like the > touch screen. > I also have a BrailleNote Classic. I really like taking notes and writing > documents on my BrailleNote. > Thanks, > Hannah > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Philip S > Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 2:19 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen > > Hi all, > > I'm doing research and am curious to know your thoughts on touch screen. > How do you feel about touch screen as more and more devices adopt this > interface? Do you love it, embrace it, hate it, a pain in the rear, or > something in between...? Please share how you feel about it and be as > thorough as you wish. > > Also, what kind of notetaker, PDA, mobile devices and mobile phones do you > use now? > > Thanks. > > Phil > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hannahgf11%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From philso1003 at gmail.com Tue May 31 15:35:02 2011 From: philso1003 at gmail.com (Philip S) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 11:35:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen In-Reply-To: <002b01cc1f9e$8b552a50$a1ff7ef0$@gmail.com> References: <002b01cc1f9e$8b552a50$a1ff7ef0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks guys for your feedback. Please keep 'em coming. For those of you who have both notetaker device and SmartPhone, do you see your SmartPhone taking over the role of your notetaker device, or is your SmartPhone simply an addition rather than a substitute to your notetaker device? Why or why not? Josh, you said iPod's touch-screen is easier than SmartPhone, why is that? Are you referring to iPhone or Android? Thanks. Phil On 5/31/11, Hannah Furney wrote: > Hi. I received an Ipod Touch in February as a gift. I really like the > touch screen. > I also have a BrailleNote Classic. I really like taking notes and writing > documents on my BrailleNote. > Thanks, > Hannah > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Philip S > Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 2:19 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen > > Hi all, > > I'm doing research and am curious to know your thoughts on touch screen. > How do you feel about touch screen as more and more devices adopt this > interface? Do you love it, embrace it, hate it, a pain in the rear, or > something in between...? Please share how you feel about it and be as > thorough as you wish. > > Also, what kind of notetaker, PDA, mobile devices and mobile phones do you > use now? > > Thanks. > > Phil > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hannahgf11%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com > From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com Tue May 31 15:41:27 2011 From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 11:41:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen In-Reply-To: References: <002b01cc1f9e$8b552a50$a1ff7ef0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, Philip and all, Like Kirt, I used to hate touch screens, but I recently received an Ipad as a gift from my family, and my experiences with it have been positive so far. Apple has truly shown that a touch screen device can be made accessible for the blind users! I find that the learning curve is a bit steeper than more traditional technology, but I'm confident that proficiency will come with practice, and a Bluetooth keybpoard will certainly make things a lot easier. I also use a Braille Note MPower as a note-taker and a Nokia phone with Mobile Speaks installed. Katie On 5/31/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Hey Nabsters, > I used to hate them with a fiery passion. I can totally understand > where Joshua's coming from cause I was there before I got my IPod > touch. And, honestly, it's still not as natural for me as a good old > notetaker, or regular keyboard. But with voiceover, they work and > they work wonderfully, even if it still feels a little strange to me > sometimes cause it's so unlike anything I've used before. > But Apple's certainly shown that touch screens can be made > accessible. Will it ever be my prefered interface? Probably not. Do > I still love it and use it all the time? Absolutely. And now that I > have a bluetooth keyboard for my ipod touch, it's even easier. > HTH, > Kirt > > On 5/31/11, Hannah Furney wrote: >> Hi. I received an Ipod Touch in February as a gift. I really like the >> touch screen. >> I also have a BrailleNote Classic. I really like taking notes and writing >> documents on my BrailleNote. >> Thanks, >> Hannah >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Philip S >> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 2:19 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'm doing research and am curious to know your thoughts on touch screen. >> How do you feel about touch screen as more and more devices adopt this >> interface? Do you love it, embrace it, hate it, a pain in the rear, or >> something in between...? Please share how you feel about it and be as >> thorough as you wish. >> >> Also, what kind of notetaker, PDA, mobile devices and mobile phones do you >> use now? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Phil >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hannahgf11%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com > From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com Tue May 31 15:51:13 2011 From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 11:51:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen In-Reply-To: References: <002b01cc1f9e$8b552a50$a1ff7ef0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello again, Sorry for redundant posting, but I just saw Philip's new post after sending that last message. I use my smart phone in addition to my note taker and do not see it replacing my Braille Note any time in the near future. I bought an accessible smart phone because I want to be able to manage my contacts and texts independently as well as quickly check my emails and such when I'm away from my computer for a long time, but I still use it primarily as a phone rather than a PDA. I use my Braille Note to take notes, keep track of appointments, as well as read books and compose documents that do not require elaborate formatting. I love the braille keyboard and display and finds the general interface more intuitive than most main-stream technology I have seen. Katie On 5/31/11, Katie Wang wrote: > Hi, Philip and all, > Like Kirt, I used to hate touch screens, but I recently received an > Ipad as a gift from my family, and my experiences with it have been > positive so far. Apple has truly shown that a touch screen device can > be made accessible for the blind users! I find that the learning curve > is a bit steeper than more traditional technology, but I'm confident > that proficiency will come with practice, and a Bluetooth keybpoard > will certainly make things a lot easier. I also use a Braille Note > MPower as a note-taker and a Nokia phone with Mobile Speaks installed. > Katie > > On 5/31/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Hey Nabsters, >> I used to hate them with a fiery passion. I can totally understand >> where Joshua's coming from cause I was there before I got my IPod >> touch. And, honestly, it's still not as natural for me as a good old >> notetaker, or regular keyboard. But with voiceover, they work and >> they work wonderfully, even if it still feels a little strange to me >> sometimes cause it's so unlike anything I've used before. >> But Apple's certainly shown that touch screens can be made >> accessible. Will it ever be my prefered interface? Probably not. Do >> I still love it and use it all the time? Absolutely. And now that I >> have a bluetooth keyboard for my ipod touch, it's even easier. >> HTH, >> Kirt >> >> On 5/31/11, Hannah Furney wrote: >>> Hi. I received an Ipod Touch in February as a gift. I really like the >>> touch screen. >>> I also have a BrailleNote Classic. I really like taking notes and >>> writing >>> documents on my BrailleNote. >>> Thanks, >>> Hannah >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Philip S >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 2:19 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'm doing research and am curious to know your thoughts on touch screen. >>> How do you feel about touch screen as more and more devices adopt this >>> interface? Do you love it, embrace it, hate it, a pain in the rear, or >>> something in between...? Please share how you feel about it and be as >>> thorough as you wish. >>> >>> Also, what kind of notetaker, PDA, mobile devices and mobile phones do >>> you >>> use now? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Phil >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hannahgf11%40gmail.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com >> > From ignasicambra at gmail.com Tue May 31 17:28:08 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 13:28:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen In-Reply-To: References: <002b01cc1f9e$8b552a50$a1ff7ef0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0375206E-34EA-44FD-9A34-188E9EDD9134@gmail.com> There are two types of touch screens: accessible touch screens and inaccessible touch screens. It's as simple as that. Apple devices are accessible and in my opinion there's nothing more efficient for a blind person to use. The interface is generally pretty consistent across applications and things just work. I find the small touch screen on the iPhone extremely convenient because I can operate it with one hand most of the time, which is helpful when I'm walking with my guide dog or anything like that. Everyone has different opinions on this,but I personally don't see the need of a notetaker. There are very small bluetooth keyboards out there which unfold and are very nice to type on. I have one of those that I use with my iphone, and it's a lot smaller than any notetaker and does lots of things which a notetaker can't do. I do think that if I was a braille display user I would probably have a different opinion on this. I love reading books in Braille etc, but I just don't need it when I'm working on a computer. In a nutshell, I use my iPhone by itself most of the time, and I use the keyboard if I need to take notes or write long documents. I can just keep my phone in my pocket and use the keyboard to type in class etc. On May 31, 2011, at 11:35 AM, Philip S wrote: > Thanks guys for your feedback. Please keep 'em coming. > > For those of you who have both notetaker device and SmartPhone, do you > see your SmartPhone taking over the role of your notetaker device, or > is your SmartPhone simply an addition rather than a substitute to your > notetaker device? Why or why not? > > Josh, you said iPod's touch-screen is easier than SmartPhone, why is > that? Are you referring to iPhone or Android? > > Thanks. > > Phil > > > On 5/31/11, Hannah Furney wrote: >> Hi. I received an Ipod Touch in February as a gift. I really like the >> touch screen. >> I also have a BrailleNote Classic. I really like taking notes and writing >> documents on my BrailleNote. >> Thanks, >> Hannah >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Philip S >> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 2:19 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'm doing research and am curious to know your thoughts on touch screen. >> How do you feel about touch screen as more and more devices adopt this >> interface? Do you love it, embrace it, hate it, a pain in the rear, or >> something in between...? Please share how you feel about it and be as >> thorough as you wish. >> >> Also, what kind of notetaker, PDA, mobile devices and mobile phones do you >> use now? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Phil >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hannahgf11%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Tue May 31 17:35:26 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 13:35:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen Message-ID: <4de526ee.4f76e50a.495a.1204@mx.google.com> Right, we might not even need notetakers (but I didn't say that) because they have displays that can work with IPhones other than those. I do not know which ones, but I do know for sure that they exist. I used an IPod Touch once, loved it! I will hopefully have one of my own soon. HTH, Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Ignasi Cambra wrote: Hi. I received an Ipod Touch in February as a gift. I really like the touch screen. I also have a BrailleNote Classic. I really like taking notes and writing documents on my BrailleNote. Thanks, Hannah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Philip S Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 2:19 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen Hi all, I'm doing research and am curious to know your thoughts on touch screen. How do you feel about touch screen as more and more devices adopt this interface? Do you love it, embrace it, hate it, a pain in the rear, or something in between...? Please share how you feel about it and be as thorough as you wish. Also, what kind of notetaker, PDA, mobile devices and mobile phones do you use now? Thanks. Phil _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hannahgf1 1%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso100 3%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam bra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Tue May 31 17:36:59 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 13:36:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen Message-ID: <4de5274b.224ee50a.5094.0f97@mx.google.com> OK, forget what I said about not needing notetakers, we will need them for the braille keyboards and the accessibility they provide. Apologies, Josh sent from my Apex Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Ignasi Cambra wrote: Hi. I received an Ipod Touch in February as a gift. I really like the touch screen. I also have a BrailleNote Classic. I really like taking notes and writing documents on my BrailleNote. Thanks, Hannah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Philip S Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 2:19 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen Hi all, I'm doing research and am curious to know your thoughts on touch screen. How do you feel about touch screen as more and more devices adopt this interface? Do you love it, embrace it, hate it, a pain in the rear, or something in between...? Please share how you feel about it and be as thorough as you wish. Also, what kind of notetaker, PDA, mobile devices and mobile phones do you use now? Thanks. Phil _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hannahgf1 1%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso100 3%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam bra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 2%40gmail.com From kaybaycar at gmail.com Tue May 31 18:16:57 2011 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 13:16:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen In-Reply-To: <4de5274b.224ee50a.5094.0f97@mx.google.com> References: <4de5274b.224ee50a.5094.0f97@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi guys. I find this topic very interesting. A few months ago our access office was given an iPad to try out, so our assistive tech person let me and a friend use one. My friend had it first, and she understood it almost immediately, but I hated the thing. I tried it out, but I couldn't understand the interface. The lay out was just too visual for me. I kept hitting the wrong thing on the screen, and it took me 10 minutes just to type my name. I suppose that with practice, I could get used to it, but I don't want to have to relearn an interface when I already understand the technology I'm using. In order to use this device, you need to understand where everything is in relation to everything else on the screen. You can't just memorize a couple keystrokes. I know this works for people, and I think it's great that these things can be made accessible; however, I personally do not want one and hope that using keys and buttons will always be an option. I use a braille note Apex, and I really love it. I have a Samsung Haven because I had a bad experience with a smart phone, which, incidentally I lost at last year's convention. :) I love my Haven, and I really don't want another smart phone in the near future. I like my cell phones to be phones. I also don't think that smart phones will replace braille notes, at least not for a while. On 5/31/11, Josh Gregory wrote: > OK, forget what I said about not needing notetakers, we will need > them for the braille keyboards and the accessibility they > provide. > Apologies, > Josh > > sent from my Apex > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ignasi Cambra To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Tue, 31 May 2011 13:28:08 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen > > There are two types of touch screens: accessible touch screens > and inaccessible touch screens. It's as simple as that. Apple > devices are accessible and in my opinion there's nothing more > efficient for a blind person to use. The interface is generally > pretty consistent across applications and things just work. I > find the small touch screen on the iPhone extremely convenient > because I can operate it with one hand most of the time, which is > helpful when I'm walking with my guide dog or anything like that. > Everyone has different opinions on this,but I personally don't > see the need of a notetaker. There are very small bluetooth > keyboards out there which unfold and are very nice to type on. I > have one of those that I use with my iphone, and it's a lot > smaller than any notetaker and does lots of things which a > notetaker can't do. I do think that if I was a braille display > user I would probably have a different opinion on this. I love > reading books in Braille etc, but I just don't need it when I'm > working on a computer. > In a nutshell, I use my iPhone by itself most of the time, and I > use the keyboard if I need to take notes or write long documents. > I can just keep my phone in my pocket and use the keyboard to > type in class etc. > > On May 31, 2011, at 11:35 AM, Philip S wrote: > > Thanks guys for your feedback. Please keep 'em coming. > > For those of you who have both notetaker device and SmartPhone, > do you > see your SmartPhone taking over the role of your notetaker > device, or > is your SmartPhone simply an addition rather than a substitute > to your > notetaker device? Why or why not? > > Josh, you said iPod's touch-screen is easier than SmartPhone, > why is > that? Are you referring to iPhone or Android? > > Thanks. > > Phil > > > On 5/31/11, Hannah Furney wrote: > Hi. I received an Ipod Touch in February as a gift. I really > like the > touch screen. > I also have a BrailleNote Classic. I really like taking notes > and writing > documents on my BrailleNote. > Thanks, > Hannah > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Philip S > Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 2:19 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen > > Hi all, > > I'm doing research and am curious to know your thoughts on touch > screen. > How do you feel about touch screen as more and more devices > adopt this > interface? Do you love it, embrace it, hate it, a pain in the > rear, or > something in between...? Please share how you feel about it and > be as > thorough as you wish. > > Also, what kind of notetaker, PDA, mobile devices and mobile > phones do you > use now? > > Thanks. > > Phil > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hannahgf1 > 1%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso100 > 3%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam > bra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 > 2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding Eyes for the Blind "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From nabs.president at gmail.com Tue May 31 19:55:36 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 13:55:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention Room Wanted Message-ID: Hello students, A female student from Nebraska, Rachel Vacanti, is looking for a room at the convention hotel to join during convention week. If you have a room and are looking for additional roommates, please contact her at revacanti at gmail.com or by phone at 402-960-9085 Thanks! Arielle -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.com Tue May 31 21:53:23 2011 From: AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.com (Alexander Kaiser) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 17:53:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] rehabilittation center question Message-ID: <263F54151C4A48C383A5A90097B75405@1x3pqn1> Attention List, Hi my name is Alexander Kaiser. I would like to find out more information on the Conklin Center for the Blind, lighthouse of Broward, and Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired. I also want to know if training at the Conklin Center for the Blind, lighthouse of Broward, and Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired is adequate or inadequate for blind students seeking independence. I would like to speak to someone who has attended the Conklin Center for the Blind. I would also like to hear from someone who Attended lighthouse of Broward . Has anyone attended Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired if you have recently attended , I would also like to talk to you because I would also like to get oppinions on all three rehabilitation centers from people with prior experiences at these three centers. I would greatly appreciate feedback. I can be contacted off list by email and cell phone and skype. My email address is AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.com. My cell phone number is 9 7 3 5 2 5 8 0 9 6. My skype ID is Alexander.the.great1990. Please respond back as immediately as possible. Thank you, Alex Kaiser ____________________________________________________________ GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at http://www.inbox.com/smileys Works with AIM®, MSN® Messenger, Yahoo!® Messenger, ICQ®, Google TalkT and most webmails From AlexanderSKaiser90 at gmx.com Tue May 31 22:00:13 2011 From: AlexanderSKaiser90 at gmx.com (Alexander Kaiser) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 18:00:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] rehabilitation center question Message-ID: Attention List, Hi my name is Alexander Kaiser. I would like to find out more information on the Conklin Center for the Blind, lighthouse of Broward, and Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired. I also want to know if training at the Conklin Center for the Blind, lighthouse of Broward, and Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired is adequate or inadequate for blind students seeking independence. I would like to speak to someone who has attended the Conklin Center for the Blind. I would also like to hear from someone who Attended lighthouse of Broward . Has anyone attended Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired if someone has recently attended , I would also like to talk to you because I would also like to get oppinions on all three rehabilitation centers from people with prior experiences at these three centers. I can be contacted off list by email and cell phone and skype. My email address is AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.com. My cell phone number is 9 7 3 5 2 5 8 0 9 6. My skype ID is Alexander.the.great1990. Thank you, Alex Kaiser From AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.com Tue May 31 22:04:25 2011 From: AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.com (Alexander Kaiser) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 18:04:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] rehabilitation center question Message-ID: <60B97C881DB44507AB2F8DA9C5B9C13B@1x3pqn1> Attention List, Hi my name is Alexander Kaiser. I would like to find out more information on the Conklin Center for the Blind, lighthouse of Broward, and Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired. I also want to know if training at the Conklin Center for the Blind, lighthouse of Broward, and Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired is adequate or inadequate for blind students seeking independence. I would like to speak to someone who has attended the Conklin Center for the Blind. I would also like to hear from someone who Attended lighthouse of Broward . Has anyone attended Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired if someone has recently attended , I would also like to talk to you because I would also like to get oppinions on all three rehabilitation centers from people with prior experiences at these three centers. I can be contacted off list by email and cell phone and skype. My email address is AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.com. My cell phone number is 9 7 3 5 2 5 8 0 9 6. My skype ID is Alexander.the.great1990. Thank you, Alex Kaiser ____________________________________________________________ TRY FREE IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if5 Capture screenshots, upload images, edit and send them to your friends through IMs, post on Twitter®, Facebook®, MySpaceT, LinkedIn® - FAST! From AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.com Tue May 31 22:28:01 2011 From: AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.com (Alexander Kaiser) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 18:28:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] rehabilitation center question Message-ID: <67352B45445948079516260526BBC25B@1x3pqn1> Attention All Floridians, Hi my name is Alexander Kaiser. I would like to find out more information on the Conklin Center for the Blind, lighthouse of Broward, and Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired. I also want to know if training at the Conklin Center for the Blind, lighthouse of Broward, and Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired is adequate or inadequate for blind students seeking independence. I would like to speak to someone who has just recently attended the Conklin Center for the Blind. I would also like to hear from someone who just recently Attended lighthouse of Broward . I would like to speek to anyone who just recently attended Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired. If someone has recently attended , I would also like to talk to you because I would also like to get oppinions on all three rehabilitation centers from people with prior experiences at these three centers. I can be contacted off list by aim, msn IM Yahoo IM, email and cell phone and skype. My msn ID is coloradorockiesfan at gmx.com. My aim ID is coloradorockiesfan at gmx.com. My yahoo IM address is weatherwiz999 at yahoo.com. My email address is AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.com. My cell phone number is 9 7 3 5 2 5 8 0 9 6. My skype ID is Alexander.the.great1990. Thank you, Alex Kaiser ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue May 31 22:24:49 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 17:24:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen In-Reply-To: References: <4de5274b.224ee50a.5094.0f97@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Julie, well said! Blessings, Joshua On 5/31/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: > Hi guys. > > I find this topic very interesting. A few months ago our access > office was given an iPad to try out, so our assistive tech person let > me and a friend use one. My friend had it first, and she understood > it almost immediately, but I hated the thing. I tried it out, but I > couldn't understand the interface. The lay out was just too visual > for me. I kept hitting the wrong thing on the screen, and it took me > 10 minutes just to type my name. I suppose that with practice, I > could get used to it, but I don't want to have to relearn an interface > when I already understand the technology I'm using. In order to use > this device, you need to understand where everything is in relation to > everything else on the screen. You can't just memorize a couple > keystrokes. I know this works for people, and I think it's great that > these things can be made accessible; however, I personally do not want > one and hope that using keys and buttons will always be an option. > > I use a braille note Apex, and I really love it. I have a Samsung > Haven because I had a bad experience with a smart phone, which, > incidentally I lost at last year's convention. :) I love my Haven, > and I really don't want another smart phone in the near future. I > like my cell phones to be phones. I also don't think that smart > phones will replace braille notes, at least not for a while. > > > > On 5/31/11, Josh Gregory wrote: >> OK, forget what I said about not needing notetakers, we will need >> them for the braille keyboards and the accessibility they >> provide. >> Apologies, >> Josh >> >> sent from my Apex >> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Ignasi Cambra > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Tue, 31 May 2011 13:28:08 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen >> >> There are two types of touch screens: accessible touch screens >> and inaccessible touch screens. It's as simple as that. Apple >> devices are accessible and in my opinion there's nothing more >> efficient for a blind person to use. The interface is generally >> pretty consistent across applications and things just work. I >> find the small touch screen on the iPhone extremely convenient >> because I can operate it with one hand most of the time, which is >> helpful when I'm walking with my guide dog or anything like that. >> Everyone has different opinions on this,but I personally don't >> see the need of a notetaker. There are very small bluetooth >> keyboards out there which unfold and are very nice to type on. I >> have one of those that I use with my iphone, and it's a lot >> smaller than any notetaker and does lots of things which a >> notetaker can't do. I do think that if I was a braille display >> user I would probably have a different opinion on this. I love >> reading books in Braille etc, but I just don't need it when I'm >> working on a computer. >> In a nutshell, I use my iPhone by itself most of the time, and I >> use the keyboard if I need to take notes or write long documents. >> I can just keep my phone in my pocket and use the keyboard to >> type in class etc. >> >> On May 31, 2011, at 11:35 AM, Philip S wrote: >> >> Thanks guys for your feedback. Please keep 'em coming. >> >> For those of you who have both notetaker device and SmartPhone, >> do you >> see your SmartPhone taking over the role of your notetaker >> device, or >> is your SmartPhone simply an addition rather than a substitute >> to your >> notetaker device? Why or why not? >> >> Josh, you said iPod's touch-screen is easier than SmartPhone, >> why is >> that? Are you referring to iPhone or Android? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Phil >> >> >> On 5/31/11, Hannah Furney wrote: >> Hi. I received an Ipod Touch in February as a gift. I really >> like the >> touch screen. >> I also have a BrailleNote Classic. I really like taking notes >> and writing >> documents on my BrailleNote. >> Thanks, >> Hannah >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Philip S >> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 2:19 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'm doing research and am curious to know your thoughts on touch >> screen. >> How do you feel about touch screen as more and more devices >> adopt this >> interface? Do you love it, embrace it, hate it, a pain in the >> rear, or >> something in between...? Please share how you feel about it and >> be as >> thorough as you wish. >> >> Also, what kind of notetaker, PDA, mobile devices and mobile >> phones do you >> use now? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Phil >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hannahgf1 >> 1%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso100 >> 3%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam >> bra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart1 >> 2%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera > Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding > Eyes for the Blind > > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue May 31 22:54:24 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 18:54:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Message-ID: <4de571bf.524ee50a.18f7.255b@mx.google.com> Um... that's not our job. Only Humanware or Hims or Freedom Scientific can control the price of the products they sell. How do you propose "us" lowering the prices?" Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez wrote: HBrice, Awesome points and I thought the same thing. It seems like there is this belief that well if I got the technology and can use it, then everyone can do it. Not so. Rehab only gets you technology as a student. A VR stream is over $300 and some can't afford that even. A notetaker is about 4 k or 6 k. And folks, not everyone wants an Iphone or I Touch. Brice said "As mentioned, I would be perfectly fine with NLS or BookShare cracking down on piracy of ebooks. I delete the materials when I'm done with them anyway, and think that everyone else should too. This type of thing could never be full proof but might help alleviate the cries of unfairness on the topic." Yes, I do too; I delete when I'm done, although I'll admit some real good books, I have kept. Sighted students have options to rent books and as Brice said if you buy the book you cannot sell it back if your DSS scanned it. So those two things are unfair to us. I don't see a win-win solution. I want to see ebook readers accessible, and once they are and are wide spread we may see the slow, I mean slow, decline of bookshare. But I predict that NLS will stay as long as traditional libraries stay. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Brice Smith Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:53 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare What's also not fair is paying full price for a textbook and being unable to return the material at the end of the semester like other students because your DSO ripped and scanned the book. In that case, keeping the PDF or text file is perfectly justifiable, in my opinion. By the way: one of my friends rents her textbooks online, photocopies the pages she needs, and returns the book within the return limit. Blind people are not the only ones that unfairly cheat the system. *grin* As mentioned, I would be perfectly fine with NLS or BookShare cracking down on piracy of ebooks. I delete the materials when I'm done with them anyway, and think that everyone else should too. This type of thing could never be full proof but might help alleviate the cries of unfairness on the topic. There seems to be an increasing but small minority of "elite" blind people, a lot of whom are on these lists. These people have Braille displays, Apple iPhones or n86 phones with KNFB Reader, the latest computer technology and money and/or resources from rehab or another source which sometimes makes them somewhat unconsciously disconnected from reality. This is a problem when we stop realizing that not everyone has access to all this and start taking away options for others that does more harm than good. Brice On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: wouldn't mind if NLS had a time limit on their downloadable books. But getting hard copy is similar to the library; you got to return hard copy books or the digital books within a month. I think the borrowing there is similar to a sighted person borrowing from a library; only thing is NLS only has a fraction of the library. Kirt, my schools also require proof of purchase before they make an accessible book via the publisher sending electronic text. I'm fine with that because sighted students have to buy books too. I see what you say about downloading books free. I guess that is the loop hole in digital downloads. But if you get an old fashion CD from Learning Ally, you still have to return it. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:02 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare Kevin, Not a bad idea. But the thing is some kinds of textbooks (ala calculus, chemistry, etc) that are symbol-intensive are still problematic in electronic braille. But I guess having the choice to read them that way isn't a bad thing. Ashley, I hear you. Does rehab not help pay for readers? And, as I said, I wouldn't mind if digital braille lending libraries like NLS implimented a real way to make sure you couldn't just download a book in braille and keep it forever-for sighted people, that usually results in huge library fines. And of course most people can buy paperbacks at pretty cheap prices-with Audible and Blio and the Kindle and IOS devices (especially if and when braille access improves), we have the ability to buy ebooks at the same prices everyone else has to. Downloading a book for free from bookshare or learning ally is not the same as going to the library and checking out a book because libraries have return policies (even for ebooks and digital audiobooks), so as to not violate copyright law. We can download a .brf book for free, which anyone else has to pay for if they want to keep instead of borrow. And I have another question. I recognize the need for accessible textbooks. My university accessibility center requires that I first purchase any book before they can make it accessible, which is perfectly reasonable-other students, after all, have to buy their textbooks if they want to own them. So why on earth can we permanently get college textbooks for _free_, which we can keep for as long as we like...in effect, we're buying books without paying for them. Were I a book publisher, I'd probably be a little bit ticked about that. I'm all for accessibility, but shouldn't we have to pay for our books if we want to keep them, just like everyone else has to? How on earth is this fair? On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: Kirt, Well, I tried to cover this before but perhaps didn't do it well enough. Saying that the availability of novels is probably fairly straight-forward is not the same as saying that we already have access to them. In some cases we do, through BLIO, for example. However, I still believe that discarding the old infrastructures that have been built up over many years is a bit premature until we get a better sense of where electronic texts and their accessability is truly going. I don't doubt the commitment of BLIO to accessibility, but I do think that we can't say at this point how well the general market will support BLIO and that's important for it to work. It will take some time for many of us to get used to reading with a synthesized voice, even if it is pretty good. There are also many for whom technology is still a challenge. These things will probably change over time, but they are still true barriers today and will be so for a while yet. Electronic texts probably will have an impact on BookShare over time. Also, we are about the only organization of blind people who ever questions whether we need a given service, so even if we were to all agree that it is time to abandon BookShare and buy e-texts, there will be others who wil oppose that. Still, my contention is simply that we need to see better how the electronic text market matures and how accessibility fairs before advocating big changes in how we get books. Examining whether we are receiving preferential treatment is always a good thing to do in my opinion, and I hope we're honest enough with ourselves to continue this kind of self-examination. At the same time, we have to be careful to not trade a service we have for promises of what will be, and we also need to be careful not to sell out those of us who are less technical or on lower incomes. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Wed, 25 May 2011 13:24:50 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: Steve, One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me, at least with books that aren't textbooks. Warmly, Kirt On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: Steve, Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with literary braille. I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. Warmly, Kirt On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: Kirt, As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some things happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a novel, for example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need access to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, so I am not suggesting that this isn't important. There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may not be that important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will concentrate on making the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final product by merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is already available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to create accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking the same text and making it available in another format. My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you name are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what sort of availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The industry is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some new way of displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard to make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some hope, but rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need on what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually. In 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make their Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor yesterday released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I would never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's in 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology goes. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: Steve and Mike, You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast towards access to mainstream books in braille. Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very least, better manage our precious SSI. Just my thoughts, Kirt On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with BookShare to make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of BKS books has improved over the years. Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sally Thomas Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce accessible textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more books are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would be foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first when designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks accessible. Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the hands of blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated process for producing quality braille. Sally Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" wrote: Julie, More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I honestly don't know what is. I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please don't take my passion as a personal attack. With respect, Kirt On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: Well said. I agree with those statements. I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and order hard copy books. We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just us. That just doesn't seem right to me. I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental problem with this article: ": For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?" Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for sighted individuals. Brice On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: Hey Guys: I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted to get your thoughts. The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and the NLS library service should go away. Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for reading. What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went away completely. hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion purposes. Kerri Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion by Josh de Lioncourt A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually impaired community. Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at just a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this question. .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing materials in accessible formats. .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from their users before they are able to gain access to the content provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle provide access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, including mobile phones. .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these bodies. This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential treatment?" Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information they needed online than by visiting a physical library. The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find none who would argue that point. With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment media such as music or movies. While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a future of equal access with our sighted peers. It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone else? Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we pay for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community college? For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod touch can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions ultimately be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining books for their hard work? Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our printed materials handed over for free? We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? I know which outcome I'm hoping for. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smi th319%40gma il.com -- Brice Smith North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar %40gmail.co m -- Julie McG Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding Eyes for the Blind "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gma il.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhat is%40hotmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jac obson%40visi.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jac obson%40visi.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma hb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smi th319%40gmail.com -- Brice Smith North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma hb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert echjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue May 31 22:54:33 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 18:54:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility Message-ID: <4de571c8.524ee50a.18f7.255e@mx.google.com> I don't think it is. Why pay when you can get the * total accessibility out of the box when you buy your phone? The iPhone is pretty much universal as far as carriers, so my question is: why are we even deliberating on this decision? On the Android, you have to pay for accessibility, where on the iPhone you can get accessibility free and out of the box. Um... don't we want to spend less money, not more? Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Liz Bottner Attention All Floridian Students, Hi my name is Alexander Kaiser. I would like to find out more information on the Conklin Center for the Blind, lighthouse of Broward, and Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired. I also want to know if training at the Conklin Center for the Blind, lighthouse of Broward, and Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired is adequate or inadequate for blind students seeking independence. I would like to speak to someone who has just recently attended the Conklin Center for the Blind. I would also like to hear from someone who just recently Attended lighthouse of Broward . I would like to speek to anyone who just recently attended Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired. If someone has recently attended , I would also like to talk to you because I would also like to get oppinions on all three rehabilitation centers from people with prior experiences at these three centers. I can be contacted off list by aim, msn IM Yahoo IM, email and cell phone and skype. My msn ID is coloradorockiesfan at gmx.com. My aim ID is coloradorockiesfan at gmx.com. My yahoo IM address is weatherwiz999 at yahoo.com. My email address is AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.com. My cell phone number is 9 7 3 5 2 5 8 0 9 6. My skype ID is Alexander.the.great1990. Thank you, Alex Kaiser ___________________________ ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue May 31 22:57:05 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 18:57:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Message-ID: <4de5725f.814de50a.5d67.21e7@mx.google.com> Or on the flip side, "What will the NFB think of this?" "Will this be an example of NFB philosophy?" "Am I being independent enough to be a true Federationist?" Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Jedi wrote: I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view that we get from the public in general. Most people who are sighted are not used to a blind person. You have to understand that one blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now reliable for what a person thinks about blind people. They are the ones setting an example. So if you have a blind person who smells bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or just do not have the proper skills, the outside person will make an assumtion and say that all blind people are like that. i'm not saying it's right for blind people to call out other blind people with a skills set that is lower then theirs, they're just calling them out because they are representing blind people. It puts a bad label on us blind people who do take care of ourselves, have the skills to be independent and succeed. like i said, i'm not saying it's right but I don't think us who do have the skills want to have a negative conotation. Not all blind people poke their eyes, rock, hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, do not clean their own clothes, or anything like that. So to be part of a group that's going to display such a view that is negative to the public, we fall right behind that. Am I making sense? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepow er17%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind jedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue May 31 22:57:37 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 18:57:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility Message-ID: <4de5727f.814de50a.5d67.21fa@mx.google.com> Hi Jorge, What carrier do you have? Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez wrote: Use of the phone and its features really is limited in my opinion. Many things look very promising, and there are a few apps that are designed for the blind and work well with Talkback. There are still many things which don't seem to work for me...random buttons which don't get activated when the screen reader is on, things that are not read to you etc. If you are expecting to be able to check your email and browse the internet just like on an iPhone, I think you will be disappointed. I personally use my iPhone all the time, but have the Droid just to do experiments. It's relatively easy to develop applications for Android and I have fun with it. I could use it as my primary phone if I wanted to, but I still find the iPhone a lot better as a blind user. It would be interesting to hear other opinions though. Does anyone on this list use an Android phone?? On May 25, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Liz Bottner wrote: What are some things related to usability and convenience that you give up in using an Android? I am thinking of possibly taking the plunge and getting an Android, having used an iPhone prior. I have had very little experience using Android, and will say that I was frustrated in doing so. If I have to give up a lot and find that my use of the phone and its features really is limited, I may not go for it. I really wish Google would make accessibility a priority. I would love choice in which mobile platform I can use. I'm possibly also spoiled in that I don't think I should have to pay extra for accessibility, (following Apple's example), especially if the extra that I would pay only allows me access to a specific suite of applications deemed accessible by one developer/company and I still cannot have full access to the phone. Lastly, I am wondering at this point if Android is not more accessible to the low vision user than it is to one who is totally blind? Just my thoughts... Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ignasi Cambra Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 5:17 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done. I have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, none of the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on an iPhone. If you need a fully functional phone and you need to accomplish things quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not ready yet. If you want to try something new and you are willing to give up on some usability and convenience, try getting an Android phone and see how it goes. If you are planning on using Mobile Accessibility I would recommend that you get a touch screen phone. IC On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: Hi all: Just wondering, my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in the Android platform. What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? Is TalkBack any good? Thank you. Jorge _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam bra%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhat is%40hotmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam bra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert echjorgepaez%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue May 31 22:57:15 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 18:57:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindtlk] National Federation of the Blind Commends Department ofEducation for New Accessible Technology Guidelines Message-ID: <4de57269.814de50a.5d67.21ed@mx.google.com> ---- Original Message ------ From: "Freeh,Jessica" (by way of David Andrews ) Subject: [Blindtlk] National Federation of the Blind Commends Department ofEducation for New Accessible Technology Guidelines Date sent: Fri, 27 May 2011 04:12:21 -0500 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org National Federation of the Blind Commends Department of Education for New Accessible Technology Guidelines Urges Schools to Deploy Technology That Blind Students Can Use Baltimore, Maryland (May 26, 2011): The National Federation of the Blind urged all elementary, secondary, and postsecondary schools to follow guidelines issued today by the Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights and to deploy new or emerging technologies only if they are accessible to blind students. The guidelines, in the form of Frequently Asked Questions, were issued to supplement the department's Dear Colleague letter of June 29, 2010. That letter informed all college and university presidents that their institutions must be sure that emerging technologies that they plan to deploy to students are accessible to the blind and other students with disabilities. A second Dear Colleague letter issued today made clear that the same legal obligations apply to elementary and secondary schools. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The National Federation of the Blind is pleased that the Department of Education has issued this guidance to the entire education community. If blind students are to succeed in the twenty-first century, they must have access to the same technologies as their sighted peers. These comprehensive answers to commonly asked questions about the legal obligation to purchase and deploy accessible technology should be immensely helpful to school administrators. We urge educators to review them carefully and apply them whenever they are considering the purchase or deployment of new educational technologies. We will continue our efforts to hold accountable those institutions that ignore their legal obligations to their blind students." ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. _______________________________________________ blindtlk mailing list blindtlk at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/dotkid. nusbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue May 31 22:57:13 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 18:57:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [Nfb-announce] Braille Book Fair Needs Volunteers Message-ID: <4de57267.814de50a.5d67.21eb@mx.google.com> ---- Original Message ------ From: Barbara Cheadle (by way of David Andrews) Subject: [Nfb-announce] Braille Book Fair Needs Volunteers Date sent: Fri, 27 May 2011 04:24:16 -0500 Volunteers needed to help with Braille Book Fair The Braille Book Fair (formerly called the flea market) needs enthusiastic, hard-working volunteers throughout the afternoon and evening on Tuesday, July 5, at the NFB Convention in Florida. We need Braille and print readers; teens and kids (kids under 12 must be accompanied by an adult) are welcomed, too. Volunteers can sign up for one or more 2-hour shifts: 1 - 3:00pm; 3:00 - 5:00 pm, 4:45 - 6:45 pm, and 6:45 pm to 8:00 pm (or until we have finished cleaning up). If you are interested, e-mail me and/or call my home phone below and I will answer your questions, and send you the information you will need for that day. Please, Do NOT (please) respond online to this listserv. Contact me at bacheadle at msn.com or call me at one of my phone numbers (the home phone is best until we get to convention, then use the cell phone number of course). Peace. Barbara Cheadle Catonsville, MD 21228 (410) 747-3472 cell: (410) 300-5232 bacheadle at msn.com _______________________________________________ Nfb-announce mailing list Nfb-announce at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-announce_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Nfb-announce: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-announce_nfbnet.org/dot kid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue May 31 22:57:27 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 18:57:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindtlk] [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preemptsblindflyers'claims over airport kiosks Message-ID: <4de57276.814de50a.5d67.21f5@mx.google.com> Either them or the TSA. They run the airports, right? The airlines just run the gates and terminals and stuff. Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez ,"'NABS list'" , "'NFBMD list'" Neither is the iPhone, now that it's available on Verizon. Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez Message-ID: This discussion on touch screens is indeed interesting. Personally, while I am pleased that access to touch screen interfaces has come a long way, I think that there will still be a place for physical keys and buttons. This leads me to a thought that's been floating around in my head for some time: is it possible to design a keypad accessory that can be programmed to communicate with any tool out there, much like a universal remote control? This discussion also has caused some to argue that voice recognition would be the ultimate solution, but the more I see what's going on, I'm not so sure that's going to be true. Any thoughts? Thanks. From AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.com Tue May 31 22:43:36 2011 From: AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.com (Alexander Kaiser) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 18:43:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] rehabilitation center question Message-ID: <16879E70B05F497487024E26AE14AA71@1x3pqn1> Attention All Floridians, Hi my name is Alexander Kaiser. I would like to find out more information on the Conklin Center for the Blind, lighthouse of Broward, and Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired. I also want to know if training at the Conklin Center for the Blind, lighthouse of Broward, and Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired is adequate or inadequate for blind students seeking independence. I would like to speak to someone who has attended the Conklin Center for the Blind. I would also like to hear from someone who Attended lighthouse of Broward . Has anyone attended Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired if someone has recently attended , I would also like to talk to you because I would also like to get oppinions on all three rehabilitation centers from people with prior experiences at these three centers. I can be contacted off list by email and cell phone and skype. My email address is AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.com. My cell phone number is 9 7 3 5 2 5 8 0 9 6. My skype ID is Alexander.the.great1990. Thank you, Alex Kaiser ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue May 31 22:56:57 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 18:56:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Math-to-Speech technology project Message-ID: <4de57257.814de50a.5d67.21e5@mx.google.com> Heck, talk to one of the NFB leaders, or somebody in the advocacy department, and they might help you in the advocacy at your testing center on behalf of the Federation. Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: . About Design Science Founded in 1986 and headquartered in Long Beach, California, Design Science develops software used by educators, scientists and publishing professionals, including MathType, Equation Editor in Microsoft Office, MathFlow, MathDaisy and MathPlayer, to communicate on the web and in print. For more information please visit www.dessci.com. Ruth C. Loew, Ph.D. Assistant Director Office of Disability Policy, ETS phone: 609-683-2984 fax: 609-683-2220 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma hb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue May 31 22:57:36 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 18:57:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindtlk] [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preemptsblindflyers'claims over airport kiosks Message-ID: <4de5727e.814de50a.5d67.21f8@mx.google.com> Not the TSA, the FAA, oops! All these acronyms, we have enough in blindness! * Smile! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez ,"'NABS list'" , "'NFBMD list'" Yes! Joshua, you said in an earlier post that you hate the term visually impaired and like my motto, "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision." The vision it's referring to is your dreams and goals in life that you can meet independently regardless of the "loss of sight," but you say you want a partner that can drive you around. Can you explain this logic to me? Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Ignasi Cambra wrote: I'm not sure I understand how this would create a "double burden" on your family either. If she is an independent traveler, or independent in other ways as well, why should she create any burden? Why would this hinder your independence unless you're looking for a partner who could drive you around and such so your parents don't have to (and I don't think you are! I'm just saying, I don't understand your point.) On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Hope Paulos wrote: First of all, I don't understand, Joshua, how you believe dating a blind person would double your dependence while traveling? I'm a compitent traveler and a totally blind one at that. I am a musician as well. To be honest, I don't care whether or not my boyfriend is sighted or blind. It's who he is that counts, not his disability or lack thereof. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Freeman" wrote: I am in a serious relationship with another blind person. He is totally blind, and I have a significant amount of sight, so I can tell you from my own point of view, even before I had heard of NFB philosophy or had a very positive attitude about blindness myself, his blindness didn't weigh in much when considering him as a partner. I had the idea at the time that people with no vision at all were at a disadvantage, primarily because I'd known several totally blind individuals in school who didn't demonstrate that they had the ability to succeed at the level of a sighed person (not their fault, mind you. This gets into issues about parents' misconceptions and teacher misconceptions causing problems for blind students, but that's another topic entirely). I can say that all of these ideas flip-flopped once we had talked a little, and my attitude towards blindness in others as well as my own blindness improved gradually the more I got to know him and spend time with him. I believed that he could do anything a sighted person could do, one way or another, and that his blindness (or mine, for that matter) was only a characteristic because he demonstrated such to me in the way he approached blindness and life in general. He and I have been together for 5 years now, and intend to spend our lives together, not because we both have some degree of vision loss. Simply because we decided that we've both found "the one". On the flip side of the coin, I've also had experience dating a completely sighted person, though more casually. Compared to this person, I might as well have been totally blind. We also hit it off quite well, and I really think my lack of vision was more of an issue to me than it was to her. I felt embarrassed that when ever we'd go out, she would have to pick me up or I would have to use public transportation to meet her somewhere (which often resulted in me being late, or showing up hot and sweaty and tired from travel). If we went out to eat, and no accessible menu was available, she would sometimes read it to me, and I found this embarrassing as well. She, apparently, thought nothing of it, though, and I felt better about it when I observed how helpful she is with other sighted people as well. It was just in her nature to offer help, and didn't seem to have anything to do with my vision. Her and I are still really good friends, and she is currently in a long-term relationship with another blind person, so clearly blindness was not a turn-off to her. Again, I think if we make a big thing of our blindness, it will be a big thing. Otherwise, if we just demonstrate that we are equals, any significant others worth our time will see that we are equals and consider us as such. Best, -Jamie On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: Homberto, I don't think blindness should be a big factor in who you date. Certainly there are plenty of sighted people who do understand, after a little time with us, that us blind people have the ability to achieve on whatever level we choose to. It's never a good idea to date someone who wouldn't treat you like an equal partner-and if anyone can't accept your blindness as a characteristic rather than a handicap, that's not the kind of person I'd want to date. I think good grooming is important, no matter if you're dating a blind person or a sighted person. First impressions count for a lot, after all and although not every sighted person will blow you off if you don't look clean and well-groomed, most probably will. But I think most blind people would, too. So pretty much date whoever you want. If they're blind, that's fine. If they're sighted, that's fine too. The important thing is that you and your partner are the right fit for each other, and have the skills to make a committed relationship work. If the person you date is blind and you're genuinely happy (as long as you both have the right training to manage things), more power to you. If the person you date is sighted, and you're both genuinely happy with each other, more power to you. If it's the right thing, blindness or sight shouldn't change anything. Most of the people I've dated have been sighted, most of my friends are sighted, so when I decide I'm ready for a long-term relationship, odds are it'll probably be with a sighted girl. Not because sighted people are better, but because most of my friends happen to be sighted. But that doesn't mean I couldn't make it work with a blind girl if she happened to be the right one. Either way, you can be happy. Take care, Kirt On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net Attention All Floridians, Hi my name is Alexander Kaiser. I would like to find out more information on the Conklin Center for the Blind, lighthouse of Broward, and Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired. I also want to know if training at the Conklin Center for the Blind, lighthouse of Broward, and Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired is adequate or inadequate for blind students seeking independence. I would like to speak to someone who has attended the Conklin Center for the Blind. I would also like to hear from someone who Attended lighthouse of Broward . Has anyone attended Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired if someone has recently attended , I would also like to talk to you because I would also like to get oppinions on all three rehabilitation centers from people with prior experiences at these three centers. I can be contacted off list by email and cell phone and skype. My email address is AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.com. My cell phone number is 9 7 3 5 2 5 8 0 9 6. My skype ID is Alexander.the.great1990. Thank you, Alex Kaiser ____________________________________________________________ Send your photos by email in seconds... TRY FREE IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if3 Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social networks. From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue May 31 22:57:25 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 18:57:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility Message-ID: <4de57273.814de50a.5d67.21f2@mx.google.com> NFB discount? Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirt Manwaring wrote: There are many Android phones available both on Verizon and AT&T, and you can also get an iPhone from either carrier. On May 25, 2011, at 4:23 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: AT and T? I thought the Android was only for Verizon phones. As far as I know, the Android is semiaccessible, but doesn't read some features. But if you have AT and T already, I would totally suggest getting the iPhone! Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Jorge Paez I like human voices, too, but sometimes you have to get as close to a human voice that you can without an actual human voice. RFB only has so many volunteers, and I agree that reading should be fun, that's why I like Braille and my BrailleNote. However, I use a screen reader and other TTS technology for the stuff I can't get in Braille. The more tools we have in our toolbox, the better, in my opinion. Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: wrote: Steve, Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it? I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances, will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with literary braille. I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of course (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark. Warmly, Kirt On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson wrote: Kirt, As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some things happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access to a novel, for example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We need access to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles, so I am not suggesting that this isn't important. There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This may not be that important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks. Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will concentrate on making the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final product by merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is already available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to create accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking the same text and making it available in another format. My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you name are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know what sort of availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The industry is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if some new way of displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard to make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some hope, but rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need on what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually. In 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make their Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor yesterday released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible. I would never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's in 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology goes. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: Steve and Mike, You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard. But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature? Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a bit silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast towards access to mainstream books in braille. Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read a bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay the same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very least, better manage our precious SSI. Just my thoughts, Kirt On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner wrote: TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with BookShare to make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of BKS books has improved over the years. Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sally Thomas Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce accessible textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need to translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and more books are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would be foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first when designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of accessible textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks accessible. Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the hands of blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated process for producing quality braille. Sally Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" wrote: Julie, More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else. And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I honestly don't know what is. I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please don't take my passion as a personal attack. With respect, Kirt On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: Well said. I agree with those statements. I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and order hard copy books. We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them. I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just us. That just doesn't seem right to me. I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles. On 5/24/11, Brice Smith wrote: Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental problem with this article: ": For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?" Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their disposal. It's called the public library, Josh. Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping. Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for sighted individuals. Brice On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: Hey Guys: I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted to get your thoughts. The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and the NLS library service should go away. Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts? Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future? Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books. Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS. What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for reading. What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen. Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went away completely. hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion purposes. Kerri Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion by Josh de Lioncourt A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle, Adobe Digital Editions, etc?" On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually impaired community. Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at just a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this question. .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing materials in accessible formats. .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from their users before they are able to gain access to the content provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these hoops, or find it a violation of privacy. .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast, commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle provide access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices, including mobile phones. .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer. .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these bodies. This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform, but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated. There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however. It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential treatment?" Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question. Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in a manner that was equivalent to public libraries. With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply. Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information they needed online than by visiting a physical library. The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find none who would argue that point. With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment media such as music or movies. While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling, and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only, solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a future of equal access with our sighted peers. It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community, purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone else? Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we pay for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community college? For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates? Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music. How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod touch can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage, and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions ultimately be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining books for their hard work? Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our printed materials handed over for free? We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement? I know which outcome I'm hoping for. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smi th319%40gma il.com -- Brice Smith North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar %40gmail.co m -- Julie McG Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding Eyes for the Blind "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gma il.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhat is%40hotmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jac obson%40visi.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jac obson%40visi.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma hb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu sbaum%40gmail.com From AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.com Tue May 31 22:11:41 2011 From: AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.com (Alexander Kaiser) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 18:11:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Florida rehabilitation center question immediate response granted Message-ID: <48CC8B7C4BC243DA9E6D6C5E85B3D77A@1x3pqn1> Attention List, Hi my name is Alexander Kaiser. I would like to find out more information on the Conklin Center for the Blind, lighthouse of Broward, and Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired. I also want to know if training at the Conklin Center for the Blind, lighthouse of Broward, and Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired is adequate or inadequate for blind students seeking independence. I would like to speak to someone who has attended the Conklin Center for the Blind. I would also like to hear from someone who Attended lighthouse of Broward . Has anyone attended Florida Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired if someone has recently attended , I would also like to talk to you because I would also like to get oppinions on all three rehabilitation centers from people with prior experiences at these three centers. I can be contacted off list by email and cell phone and skype. My email address is AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.com. My cell phone number is 9 7 3 5 2 5 8 0 9 6. My skype ID is Alexander.the.great1990. Thank you, Alex Kaiser ____________________________________________________________ Share photos & screenshots in seconds... TRY FREE IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if1 Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social networks. From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue May 31 22:54:50 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 18:54:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others Message-ID: <4de571d8.524ee50a.18f7.2564@mx.google.com> You make a lot of sense! I'm still trying to get rid of my blindism, and sometimes I would get a little annoyed when Mom always "got on my case" about it. She told me that, like it or not, the world around me is mostly sighted and wrong or right, they make judgments on people based on what they see. So if we want to change what it means to be blind (hint hint, NFB says that all the time) we need to convey that positive image about blindness not only in what we say, but in what sighted people see visually from us. Chris "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) --- Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel Romero References: <4de57273.814de50a.5d67.21f2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Chris, The iphone isn't even close to universally provided by carriers. If it were, I'd have a lot less of a gripe with t-mobile. *smile* I think sprint doesn't carry it either-that's two of the top 5 carriers in the USA. I actually think the only ones that do carry it are Varison and at&t...so maybe my t-mobile problem will go away in a year or so. Respectfully, Kirt On 5/31/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > NFB discount? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:54:15 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility > > But you can't get an iphone from T-Mobile...so I'm stuck. > > On 5/25/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > There are many Android phones available both on Verizon and > AT&T, and you > can also get an iPhone from either carrier. > On May 25, 2011, at 4:23 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > > AT and T? I thought the Android was only for Verizon phones. As > far as I > know, the Android is semiaccessible, but doesn't read some > features. But > if you have AT and T already, I would totally suggest getting > the iPhone! > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities > motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:40:45 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility > > Hi all: > Just wondering, > my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am > interested in > the Android platform. > What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? > Is TalkBack any good? > > > Thank you. > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam > bra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz > ydude%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From nabs.president at gmail.com Tue May 31 23:44:23 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 17:44:23 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: FW: comprehensive math survey In-Reply-To: <000601cc0e71$66794a60$336bdf20$@earthlink.net> References: <000601cc0e71$66794a60$336bdf20$@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hello all, Attached and also pasted below is an important survey about math accessibility being conducted by Al Maneki in conjunction with the NFB Jernigan Institute. Please note that although the official deadline has passed, we are still looking for survey responses, so we'd appreciate your help with this. Thanks! Arielle HANDLING MATH IN BRAILLE? A SURVEY By Al Maneki >From the Editor: At the 2010 NFB convention in Dallas, Al Maneki moderated a lively panel on access to mathematics classes by blind students. The response to the panel was enthusiastic, but it raised a number of unanswered questions. Al realized how little is actually known about how blind people handle the many challenges of math. With the help of Judith Chwallow and Mark Riccobono of the Jernigan Institute, he has compiled a series of survey questions to help us learn more. How do blind and visually impaired people read and do mathematics? I address this question to any blind person who has studied math at any level, or who uses math regularly in his or her work. Technology makes Braille materials more available than ever before. However, it is unclear whether the greater availability of Braille extends to the field of mathematics. Even if mathematical materials are available in Braille, the question remains of how blind and visually impaired people actually perform mathematical tasks--solve problems; prove theorems; take tests; and write papers, dissertations, and books. How do blind and visually impaired people communicate mathematically with others? As a blind person, I have studied and worked as a mathematician for my entire adult life. I have answered the above questions for my own situation. Yet it is clear to me that mine are not the only answers. We know that a number of blind and visually impaired people have done and are currently doing mathematics, but we have no systematic information about the methods they find most useful. To help the blind community, we need to gather answers from a number of people with a variety of experiences. We plan to organize and summarize these answers and publish the results in a form that will be helpful to teachers, parents, students, and blind adults. With the help of Judy Chwallow, Director of Research at the NFB Jernigan Institute, I have compiled a set of questions that I would like to circulate as widely as possible. If you wish to furnish answers to some or all of these questions, please send your responses to me. While this is an informal survey, I believe that the responses we receive will prove valuable to many people. Who Should Complete This Survey? We would like to hear from any blind or visually impaired person who has taken or is taking at least one math or math-based science course at the secondary or postsecondary school level. We would also like to hear from any parent or teacher who has advised or assisted a blind or visually impaired child with at least one math or math-based science course. Furthermore, we are interested in students' experiences learning geometry or elementary school arithmetic. There is no restriction on when or how long ago you or your child took a math course. We want to learn about the methods of handling math that worked best for you. We are equally interested in methods that were not particularly successful or useful. If you or your child are considering taking math courses at any level, you should read these survey questions. They may help you get the information you need to complete your courses successfully. Instructions In your responses, please provide me with contact information (name, address, email, phone) so that I may reach you for possible clarifications and follow-up interviews. Please also include your age (closest to 5-year multiples, i.e. 20-25, 25-30 etc); the highest level of education you have completed; your primary reading medium; your current employment status and job title. You need not answer all of the questions, since some of them may not be relevant to your experience. You do not have to answer questions separately. You may provide a narrative summary for your response to this survey. If you require additional information about these questions, please get in touch with me. You may contact me by email, phone, or snail mail. My contact information appears at the end of the survey. You may submit your responses by email or snail mail (Braille or print please, no audio) to the addresses shown below. Please complete this survey by April 15, 2011. Persons taking courses after this date may respond later, as I anticipate a continuation of this survey. Your answers will not be used to judge your mathematical strengths or weaknesses. Any personal information you may reveal in your responses will remain confidential. Names, mailing addresses, email addresses, and phone numbers will not be distributed. Survey Questions Here are the questions to consider: 1. What math or math-based science courses have you taken (elementary, secondary, community college/university, graduate school)? Specify the level of each course, and describe the subject matter that was included. 2. Were classroom lectures useful to you? Since mathematics is generally communicated visually, tell us as specifically as you can what you actually learned from these lectures. If lectures were not helpful, tell us what you did to compensate for the missing information. 3. Were you able to take classroom notes? If so, tell us what method you used: large print, hardcopy Braille, electronic or live notetakers, audio recordings, etc. 4. How did you handle reading assignments? Tell us about your use of Braille textbooks, recorded textbooks, large print textbooks, or the use of live readers or tutors. 5. How did you do homework assignments and take tests? Describe your use of large print, notetakers, hardcopy Braille, mental arithmetic, or dictation to a live reader. If you used Braille, describe your method of translating Braille into a medium accessible to instructors who do not know Braille. If you used Braille/print reverse translation software of any kind, describe how this worked. In your answer to this question, tell us about any additional devices and technologies you have used, i.e., older devices such as the Taylor Slate, Cube-a-Rithm Slate, Circular Slide Rule, and Cranmer Abacus; and newer devices such as talking calculators or specialized learning software. 6. Have you written papers containing mathematical content in an academic or professional setting? Describe how you did this, especially the use of human support. 7. How did you work with line drawings, graphs, or charts? Explain how these were described to you or produced in accessible formats. If you had to construct these items, tell us how you accomplished this task. 8. How familiar are you with the Nemeth Braille code? Describe the extent to which you use it for reading or writing. 9. Are there any tools/devices/aids that you wish you had had that would have enhanced your mathematical experiences? 10. How satisfied are you with your mathematical experiences? Are there other comments you would like to make about how blind and visually impaired people may read and do mathematics? Conclusion This is an informal survey. I am conducting it with the intention of using the results to help others who will be taking math and math-based science courses in the future. The results of this survey, after they have been compiled, may also prove useful to people who are accustomed to doing math in their own ways. These folks may find new ways of working more productively. It could further turn out that these responses will suggest altogether different ways of doing math, either by refining methods already in use or by suggesting the development of new techniques and technologies. I fervently hope that over time this survey will make it possible for blind and visually impaired people to learn and do mathematics more efficiently and with greater ease. I plan to compile the first set of responses (received by April 15, 2011) into an article, ideally for publication in the newly established Journal of Blindness Innovation and Research. It is also my hope that this survey will be a continuing investigation. Additional articles pertaining to this survey will be published if they are warranted. In preparing this article and survey, I received valuable help from Deborah Kent Stein, Editor of Future Reflections, and from Mark Riccobono and Judith Chwalow of the NFB Jernigan Institute. Although they have left their marks on this article and survey, I assume responsibility for all shortcomings, errors, and omissions. I thank you in advance for helping me with this survey. I look forward to hearing from you. Al Maneki Email: apmaneki at earthlink.net (443) 745-9274 CELL 9013 Nelson Way, Columbia, MD 21045 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maneki survey final.doc Type: application/msword Size: 29184 bytes Desc: not available URL: From joshkart12 at gmail.com Tue May 31 23:37:17 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 19:37:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindtlk] [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal lawpreemptsblindflyers'claims over airport kiosks Message-ID: <4de57bbd.41b2e60a.227e.1019@mx.google.com> Hi all, If anybody is sued, we will need to be very careful. These guys could have huge lawyer teams. Look at, say... oh IDK nintendo. Haha I love mario and stuff. OK, let's say a small firm tried to sue them. Well, those guys have like huge lawyer teams and stuff. Now let's say this firm was upset because of a certain game they made. If this firm was to sue them, they would need to be careful what they did, because Nintendo has a huge lawyer base, and could easily defend themselves and make the firm lose their case. My point in that really bad example is if we do take legal action in this matter, we will need to be careful in what we do. If I am wrong here or if there is something that I am missing or not understanding, please let me know so that I may understand. Josh sent from my Apex Email:joshkart12 at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Nusbaum ,"'NABS list'" , "'NFBMD list'" References: <4de571c8.524ee50a.18f7.255e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4DE57DE7.70009@gmail.com> Chris, First, the iPhone is not universal. Though it's on Verizon and AT&T, people with Sprint, T-Mobile or other carriers must look at alternatives. Second, though VoiceOver on the iPhone doesn't cost anything beyond the cost of the phone, you definitley still pay a premium. The iPhone 4 16GB, for instance, costs $199 with both AT&T and Verizon. Many Android handsets, however, cost $99 or less on contract. Even with the cost of Mobile Accessibility, numerous Android devices are still les-expensive than the iPhone. Just my thoughts. Best regards, Matt On 5/31/2011 6:54 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > I don't think it is. Why pay when you can get the > * total accessibility out of the box when you buy your phone? The > iPhone is pretty much universal as far as carriers, so my question is: > why are we even deliberating on this decision? On the Android, you > have to pay for accessibility, where on the iPhone you can get > accessibility free and out of the box. Um... don't we want to spend > less money, not more? > > Chris > > "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) > > --- Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Liz Bottner To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:52:41 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility > > Yes, I do realize this. I believe that my point still stands: I pay the > money and can access what MA will let me access, regardless of who's > fault > it was that increased accessibility isn't available. The bottom line > is that > I am still having to pay extra for accessibility, something that comes > inherent on Apple devices. It really is a catch-22. > > Liz Bottner > Guiding Eyes Graduate Council > GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 > e-mail: > liziswhatis at hotmail.com > Visit my LiveJournal: > http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com > Follow me on Twitter: > http://twitter.com/lizbot > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Jorge Paez > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:09 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility > > Liz: > Just a quick note: > the apps are all developed by Mobile Accessibility--but the fact that the > screenreader doesn't work that well outside those apps is rather Google's > fault. > > > On May 25, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Liz Bottner wrote: > > What are some things related to usability and convenience that you > give up > in using an Android? I am thinking of possibly taking the plunge and > getting > an Android, having used an iPhone prior. I have had very little > experience > using Android, and will say that I was frustrated in doing so. If I have > to > give up a lot and find that my use of the phone and its features > really is > limited, I may not go for it. I really wish Google would make > accessibility > a priority. I would love choice in which mobile platform I can use. I'm > possibly also spoiled in that I don't think I should have to pay extra > for > accessibility, (following Apple's example), especially if the extra > that I > would pay only allows me access to a specific suite of applications > deemed > accessible by one developer/company and I still cannot have full > access to > the phone. Lastly, I am wondering at this point if Android is not more > accessible to the low vision user than it is to one who is totally blind? > > Just my thoughts... > > Liz Bottner > Guiding Eyes Graduate Council > GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 > e-mail: > liziswhatis at hotmail.com > Visit my LiveJournal: > http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com > Follow me on Twitter: > http://twitter.com/lizbot > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Ignasi Cambra > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 5:17 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility > > In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this > point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done. > I > have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, none > of > the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on an > iPhone. > If you need a fully functional phone and you need to accomplish things > quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not ready yet. If you > want > to try something new and you are willing to give up on some usability and > convenience, try getting an Android phone and see how it goes. If you > are > planning on using Mobile Accessibility I would recommend that you get a > touch screen phone. > > IC > On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > > Hi all: > Just wondering, > my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in > the Android platform. > What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? > Is TalkBack any good? > > > Thank you. > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam > bra%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhat > is%40hotmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert > echjorgepae > z%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhat > is%40hotmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu > sbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mgoalball%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue May 31 23:48:32 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 17:48:32 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Your thoughts on touch screen In-Reply-To: References: <4de5274b.224ee50a.5094.0f97@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Julie, I can definitely respect that, but you don't really have to know where everything is on the IPOD touch screen to find it. If yo flick your finger across, it just goes around till you find the thing you're looking for...and I've gotten pretty fast at it. Even so, I can totally understand why you don't like it, keyboards and buttons are nifty and I'm sure they'll always have a place. Even sighted people, mostly, prefer typing on keyboards (just look at the bluetooth keyboard boom with Ipads and iphones) so I'm not really sure they'll ever go away. As for notetakers, I think they'll always be an option. Although, with a bluetooth keyboard and a small braille display, my ipod touch could do as much (if not more) than an Apex or a Braille Sense. But that doesn't change the fact that notetakers are very convenient and lots of people will probably be using them for a while because they're just so darn practical. Respectfully, Kirt On 5/31/11, Tina Hansen wrote: > This discussion on touch screens is indeed interesting. Personally, while I > am pleased that access to touch screen interfaces has come a long way, I > think that there will still be a place for physical keys and buttons. This > leads me to a thought that's been floating around in my head for some time: > is it possible to design a keypad accessory that can be programmed to > communicate with any tool out there, much like a universal remote control? > > This discussion also has caused some to argue that voice recognition would > be the ultimate solution, but the more I see what's going on, I'm not so > sure that's going to be true. Any thoughts? Thanks. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From ignasicambra at gmail.com Tue May 31 23:55:48 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 19:55:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility In-Reply-To: <4DE57DE7.70009@gmail.com> References: <4de571c8.524ee50a.18f7.255e@mx.google.com> <4DE57DE7.70009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <83A711CE-EB98-47D9-AA59-46E7E53CF33F@gmail.com> What about Mobile Accessibility upgrades? What if a new version of Android comes out and you need to wait for months until Mobile Accessibility catches up? And all this without all the features on your Android phone being fully accessible... In my opinion, Android will only be at the level of iOS if the free screen reading solutions available right now mature. On May 31, 2011, at 7:46 PM, Matt McCubbin wrote: > Chris, > First, the iPhone is not universal. Though it's on Verizon and AT&T, people with Sprint, T-Mobile or other carriers must look at alternatives. > Second, though VoiceOver on the iPhone doesn't cost anything beyond the cost of the phone, you definitley still pay a premium. The iPhone 4 16GB, for instance, costs $199 with both AT&T and Verizon. Many Android handsets, however, cost $99 or less on contract. Even with the cost of Mobile Accessibility, numerous Android devices are still les-expensive than the iPhone. > Just my thoughts. > Best regards, > Matt > > On 5/31/2011 6:54 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> I don't think it is. Why pay when you can get the >> * total accessibility out of the box when you buy your phone? The iPhone is pretty much universal as far as carriers, so my question is: why are we even deliberating on this decision? On the Android, you have to pay for accessibility, where on the iPhone you can get accessibility free and out of the box. Um... don't we want to spend less money, not more? >> >> Chris >> >> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) >> >> --- Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Liz Bottner > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Date sent: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:52:41 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility >> >> Yes, I do realize this. I believe that my point still stands: I pay the >> money and can access what MA will let me access, regardless of who's fault >> it was that increased accessibility isn't available. The bottom line is that >> I am still having to pay extra for accessibility, something that comes >> inherent on Apple devices. It really is a catch-22. >> >> Liz Bottner >> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >> e-mail: >> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >> Visit my LiveJournal: >> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >> Follow me on Twitter: >> http://twitter.com/lizbot >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Jorge Paez >> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:09 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility >> >> Liz: >> Just a quick note: >> the apps are all developed by Mobile Accessibility--but the fact that the >> screenreader doesn't work that well outside those apps is rather Google's >> fault. >> >> >> On May 25, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Liz Bottner wrote: >> >> What are some things related to usability and convenience that you give up >> in using an Android? I am thinking of possibly taking the plunge and >> getting >> an Android, having used an iPhone prior. I have had very little experience >> using Android, and will say that I was frustrated in doing so. If I have >> to >> give up a lot and find that my use of the phone and its features really is >> limited, I may not go for it. I really wish Google would make >> accessibility >> a priority. I would love choice in which mobile platform I can use. I'm >> possibly also spoiled in that I don't think I should have to pay extra for >> accessibility, (following Apple's example), especially if the extra that I >> would pay only allows me access to a specific suite of applications deemed >> accessible by one developer/company and I still cannot have full access to >> the phone. Lastly, I am wondering at this point if Android is not more >> accessible to the low vision user than it is to one who is totally blind? >> >> Just my thoughts... >> >> Liz Bottner >> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council >> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 >> e-mail: >> liziswhatis at hotmail.com >> Visit my LiveJournal: >> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >> Follow me on Twitter: >> http://twitter.com/lizbot >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Ignasi Cambra >> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 5:17 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility >> >> In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this >> point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done. >> I >> have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, none >> of >> the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on an >> iPhone. >> If you need a fully functional phone and you need to accomplish things >> quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not ready yet. If you want >> to try something new and you are willing to give up on some usability and >> convenience, try getting an Android phone and see how it goes. If you are >> planning on using Mobile Accessibility I would recommend that you get a >> touch screen phone. >> >> IC >> On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >> Hi all: >> Just wondering, >> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in >> the Android platform. >> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader? >> Is TalkBack any good? >> >> >> Thank you. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam >> bra%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhat >> is%40hotmai >> l.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computert >> echjorgepae >> z%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhat >> is%40hotmai >> l.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu >> sbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mgoalball%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From nabs.president at gmail.com Tue May 31 23:48:37 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 17:48:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] rehabilitation center question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Alex, I just wanted to let you know that your message has appeared on the list eleven times in the past two hours. I am thinking there might be something wrong with your email program that I'd suggest checking out. Best, Arielle On 5/31/11, Alexander Kaiser wrote: > Attention All Floridians, > Hi my name is Alexander Kaiser. I would like to find out more information on > the Conklin Center for the Blind, lighthouse of Broward, and Florida > Devision of blind services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the > Blind and Visually impaired. I also want to know if training at the Conklin > Center for the Blind, lighthouse of Broward, and Florida Devision of blind > services rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually > impaired is adequate or inadequate for blind students seeking independence. > I would like to speak to someone who has attended the Conklin Center for > the Blind. I would also like to hear from someone who Attended lighthouse of > Broward . Has anyone attended Florida Devision of blind services > rehabilitation and adjustment center for the Blind and Visually impaired if > someone has recently attended , I would also like to talk to you because I > would also like to get oppinions on all three rehabilitation centers from > people with prior experiences at these three centers. I can be contacted off > list by email and cell phone and skype. My email address is > AScottKaiser10301990 at inbox.com. My cell phone number is 9 7 3 5 2 5 8 0 9 6. > My skype ID is Alexander.the.great1990. > > Thank you, > Alex Kaiser > > ____________________________________________________________ > Send your photos by email in seconds... > TRY FREE IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if3 > Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social networks. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org