[nabs-l] Inviting you to take a private French learning with me...

Front Desk of the YB RESOURCEFUL Consulting Talents(YBRCT)-A Resourceful Consulting ToolBox www.YBResourceful.com Inquire at YBResourceful.com
Wed May 25 16:49:47 UTC 2011


Hello everyone, hope you are enjoying your week.
If you use instent messenger like yahoo, AIM, Skype, Live, you can use the 
voice part of it to connect with me, and take a one-on-one private French 
learning lessons with me! Even if you never learned French, I am here to 
kick it start from zero. Hours are flexible; hourly price is very 
negotiable, and you can just pay by a check, cash or PayPal.
Reply with more questions or interest
LearnFrench at YBRESOURCEFUL.com
    I look forward to helping you with your French, or pick up a new great 
language for any reasons.
    -Yegue (pronounced like Yeggay)

-----Original Message----- 
From: nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 12:25 PM
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: nabs-l Digest, Vol 55, Issue 43

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Today's Topics:

   1. New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download
      (Nabslinkaudio.org Web Master)
   2. Fwd: Fitted cases for the sight Impaired by EPI (David Andrews)
   3. New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download
      (Nabslinkaudio.org Web Master)
   4. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
      (Kirt Manwaring)
   5. Re: Why Did I Join Nabs? (Mike Freeman)
   6. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
      (Kirt Manwaring)
   7. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
      (Julie McGinnity)
   8. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
      (Kirt Manwaring)
   9. Fwd: Press Release: Design Science and ETS receive grant to
      boost math accessibility (David Andrews)
  10. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
      (Christina Mitchell)
  11. Re: Why Did I Join Nabs? (Joshua Lester)
  12. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
      (Kirt Manwaring)
  13. Re: New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download
      (Ignasi Cambra)
  14. Re: Android and Mobile Accessibility (Ignasi Cambra)
  15. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
      (Sally Thomas)
  16. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
      (Rania Ismail)
  17. Re: Why Did I Join Nabs? (Rania Ismail)
  18. Re: Why Did I Join Nabs? (Rania Ismail)
  19. Re: Android and Mobile Accessibility (Ignasi Cambra)
  20. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
      (Steve Jacobson)
  21. Re: New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download
      (bookwormahb at earthlink.net)
  22. Re: New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download
      (David Dunphy)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 23:26:01 -0400
From: Nabslinkaudio.org Web Master<djdrocks4ever at gmail.com>
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download
Message-ID: <E1QP4jR-0007E4-Nb at delivery.icastcenter.com>



Greetings!
This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest conference 
call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download.

Title: The Nabs Conference Call For March 2011
Description: On this call, we had the chance to hear about the summer 
programs offered by the NFB's four major training centers. These are
<a href="http://www.blindinc.org" target="_blank">Blindness, Learning In New 
Dimensions Blind Inc</a><br>
<a href="http://www.cocenter.org" target="_blank">The Colorado Center For 
The Blind</a><br>
<a href="http://www.lcb-ruston.com" target="_blank">The Louisiana Center For 
The Blind</a><br>
and
<a href="http://bism.org" target="_blank">Bism in Maryland</a><br>
Learn about what these summer programs offer and how you can get involved 
with them.


You can download the show directly at:
http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/March2011Call.mp3

Alternatively you can visit the archive page at:
http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations
to hear some of the other calls we've done.
Best regards,
David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee
http://www.nabslinkaudio.org
http://www.nabslink.org



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 22:35:23 -0500
From: David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>
To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Fitted cases for the sight Impaired by EPI
Message-ID: <auto-000013611896 at mailfront4.g2host.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"


>From: "Al Eremita" <aleremita at executiveproductsinc.com>
>To: "Al Eremita" <aleremita at executiveproductsinc.com>
>Subject: Fitted cases for the sight Impaired by EPI
>Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 16:25:43 -0700
>
>
>
>Are your looking for a fitted case for your
>Apex, Braille Sense, Iphone, or other Braille
>products then go to
><http://www.ExecutivePrdoctsInc.com>www.ExecutivePrdoctsInc.com?
>
>We at Executive Products has been in business
>for 7 years now, creating case for the sight
>impaired community. We have always had one goal
>in mind and that was to protect your valuable
>devices, and to make you and your devices
>mobile. Over the years we have noticed that many
>companies in the sight impaired community make
>very good products but provide you with very
>little protection to your devices. We have also
>evolved to adapt to our customers needs and
>always welcome your suggestions (such as using
>magnets instead of Velcro when possible).
>
>If at any time you would like to purchase any
>one of our cases you can always go to our
>website
><http://www.executiveproductinc.com>www.executiveproductinc.com
>or call us anytime at 818-833-8080. Carol or Al
>will be able happy to answer any questions you
>may have or to help you place an order.
>
>We take great pride in working very closely with
>the sight impaired community. We are also very
>proud that all our products are made in the USA!
>
>Book Port                            Book Port
>+                        Braille+
>                  Braille Connect
>32/40                     Braille
>Icon                                       Braille Sense Plus 32
>BrailleNote Apex             GW
>BookSense                GW Voice
>Sense               Iphone
>3G/4G                                   N82
>                                                 Plextalk
>Trekker Breeze                 Victor
>Stream                   Cane
>Holders                     BX
>400/420/440                                 QX
>400/420/440                              Braille & Speak
>NLS/BPH cases                  Gps
>Cases                          GPS-EarthMate,
>            Gps-Global
>Sat,                                 GPS-Holux
>GpSlim 236                 GPS-Holux I-Blue 737,
>GPS-SysOn                         Book
>courier                      SmartPhones Pouches S/M/L
>Braille Lite
>2000/M20/M40
>Braille Note BT/QT  Mpower
>BT/QT
>Voice Note BT/QT                 Voice Note MPower BT/QT
>
>818-833-8080
>
>Please pass this e-mail to your friends.
>
>Protect your unit?.. Buy an EPI case.
>
>Executive Products Inc.
>tback_yellow-1
>
>12900 Bradley Ave.
>Sylmar Ca. 91342.
>Fax: 818-833-5890
>Office: 818-833-8080
>Mobile: 818-723-8444
><http://www.executiveproductsinc.com/>www.ExecutiveProductsinc.com
>
>
>
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 23:38:01 -0400
From: Nabslinkaudio.org Web Master<djdrocks4ever at gmail.com>
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download
Message-ID: <E1QP4v3-0008LF-NK at delivery.icastcenter.com>



Greetings!
This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest conference 
call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download.

Title: The Nabs Membership Call For April 2011
Description:
It's time to visit a topic that some understand well, others sort of get it, 
and some either have questions or don't know what it's all about. I'm 
speaking about NFB philosophy. Come hear some great ideas for encouraging 
people to reach their potential that were offered in this call. Learn how 
the NFB helps to raise the bar of expectation regarding what we as blind 
people can do.



You can download the show directly at:
http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/April2011Call.mp3

Alternatively you can visit the archive page at:
http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations
to hear some of the other calls we've done.
Best regards,
David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee
http://www.nabslinkaudio.org
http://www.nabslink.org



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 21:39:09 -0600
From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
Bookshare
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=GFvCyz4kqrj8x78b71DEXfcS6FA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

To all,
  First off, before I get roasted for disagreeing with you guys, I
want to say that braille is absolutely critical.  My biggest regret
about my education so far (aside from my terrible habbit to
procrastinate stuff), is that I've started using braille less and less
and audio more and more.  I really think it's damaged my learning and
put me at a disadvantage and, while I'm still a great braille reader,
I don't use it much as I ought to.  That said, braille has helped me
with spelling, grammar, imagination, and learning through reading
rather than listening.  I'm going to start relying on it more again
and I guarantee my writing and reading comprehention will go from good
to amazing-it's happened before and, so help me, I'm going to get back
what I've lost by relegating braille to a back seat behind my
computer.
  That being said, braille access to books from mainstream sources is
increasing at a tremendous rate.  I can use my apex as a braille
display on my ITouch to read books I purchase via Ibooks.  I'm going
to make the prediction that, at some point within the next several
years, using a notetaker or a braille display to read Kindel books
will be practical-it's just a guess, but I'd be surprised if five
years go by and I'm wrong.  With KNFB developing the BLIO reader, I
have no doubt support for braille displays will be integrated before
too long.  Reading books in mainstream formats on a braille display is
already doable, braille and I think it will only expand.  The way I
see it, the ease of reading ebooks on a braille display, as well as
the number of formats we'll be able to read on a braille display, will
only increase.
  Now to address the philosophical point this article brings up.  I
totally agree with the author here.  If we want to be treated as
equals, we have to understand we need to demand equal responsibilities
along with equal rights.  I don't see public libraries going away,
lots of people like their hardcopy books.  Therefore I don't see NLS
going away as a lender of paper braille books. I still like reading
paper braille from time to time and there are plenty of blind people
who aren't very computer literate.  People still like buying print
hardcovers and paperbooks; in that same vain, I don't see the National
Braille Press going away.  But sighted people don't get free ebooks,
why should we?  It used to be that we needed them because they were
the only ebooks we could read with a braille display, not so anymore.
If we're going to be true to our philosophy as Federationists, it's
not fair for us to want preferential treatment here.  Do we really
mean it when we say we want to be equal citizens?  If we do, it's high
time we start paying an equal price, especially since it's not that
hard to read ebooks on a braille display, if we know what we're doing,
and it's only going to get easier as programs such as the Blio and
Kindle improve their access.  I say we'll only be treated like
everyone else when we realize that equality isn't an extra handout, it
isn't just a change in society's attitudes towards us, but it's mostly
an acceptence of the responsibilities that come with first-class
citizenship!  And getting ebooks for free or at a very steap discount,
while everyone else has to pay, is definitely not an equal
responsibility.  Who's with me?
  All the best,
Kirt

On 5/24/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Hi Kerry,
> Interesting question. Yes we do have more access to mainstream books 
> through
> comericial audio like audible.com and Random House has recorded books and
> Amozon has many recorded books too.
> That said I do not see NLS going away for a long time.  As others said,
> there is still a place for a hard copy braille book, despite technology.
> You can only get certain things on braille paper such as paragraphs
> structure that you cannot get on a linear display.  You can take a braille
> book anywhere and its durable. Besides not everyone is tech savy or has a
> braille display on their notetaker if they own one.
>
> As to bookshare, I'm not so sure of that.
> Part of me thinks it will go away.  If electronic books become accessible
> from distributors and publishers, then why would anyone need bookshare?
> That is a source of electronic books after all. If we all can read books 
> via
> our computers or hook a braille display to the PC to read, then that 
> serves
> the same purpose of bookkshare.
>
> But if bookshare comes to a demise, I do not see that happening for a long
> time.  It will be a slow decline of users.
>
> Ashley
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jorge Paez
> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:17 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
>
> I think Bookshare will go away.
> Yes, you can read books with a braille display, if you have an iPhone 4 or
> above.
> And also: can't you use your notetaker with the PC as a braille display?
> I don't see NLS going any time soon just for the braille books.
> They might move away from audio/online, but the braille books are still
> valuable.
> I, like you, want to read the digital stuff on a display too.
>
> On May 24, 2011, at 8:42 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>
>> Hey Guys:
>>
>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh
>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted
>> to get your thoughts.
>>
>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of
>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should
>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from
>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's
>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and
>> the NLS library service should go away.
>>
>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?
>>
>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future?
>>
>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.
>>
>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille
>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books.
>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone
>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display
>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in
>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a
>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS.
>>
>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle
>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for
>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for
>> reading.
>>
>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many
>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat
>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for
>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.
>>
>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went
>> away completely.
>>
>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion
>> purposes.
>>
>> Kerri
>>
>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
>> by Josh de Lioncourt
>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that
>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of
>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the
>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we
>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle,
>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"
>>
>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people
>> with whom I?ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one
>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an
>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually
>> impaired community.
>>
>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let?s take a quick look at just
>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this
>> question.
>>
>> ?In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously
>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with
>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the
>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with
>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing
>> materials in accessible formats.
>> ?Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are
>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from
>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content
>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these
>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
>> ?Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable
>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast,
>> commercial solutions like Apple?s iBooks and Amazon?s Kindle provide
>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices,
>> including mobile phones.
>> ?Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a
>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large
>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient
>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove
>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer.
>> ?Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these
>> bodies.
>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a
>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform,
>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one
>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in
>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.
>>
>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however.
>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired
>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential
>> treatment?"
>>
>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question.
>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise
>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in
>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.
>>
>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability
>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply.
>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of
>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A
>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of
>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of
>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information
>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library.
>>
>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible
>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few
>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the
>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find
>> none who would argue that point.
>>
>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline
>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask
>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or
>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The
>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers
>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment
>> media such as music or movies.
>>
>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years
>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of
>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling,
>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those
>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only,
>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a
>> future of equal access with our sighted peers.
>>
>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated
>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired
>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially
>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community,
>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD?s like everyone else?
>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at
>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or
>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text
>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn?t worth as much as we pay
>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community
>> college?
>>
>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions.
>>
>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar
>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I?m
>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a
>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don?t we open
>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?
>>
>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or
>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than
>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available
>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users
>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music.
>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which
>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens
>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at
>> just $229 USD? This isn?t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch
>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage,
>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from
>> the BookSense. Wouldn?t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately
>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining
>> books for their hard work?
>>
>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community
>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon
>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at
>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our
>> printed materials handed over for free?
>>
>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a
>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our
>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal
>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on
>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move
>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?
>>
>> I know which outcome I?m hoping for.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
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>



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 20:41:01 -0700
From: Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs?
Message-ID: <05AED562-935B-4C73-9662-E91D7A3B6EF4 at panix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

What's wrong with the word "blind"?

Mike Freeman
sent from my iPhone


On May 24, 2011, at 19:30, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> 
wrote:

> I joined, for the reasons, everyone here mentioned.
> I'm actually going to join the group, next year, at convention.
> I do, however, want to say, that the term should be sight impaired.
> I like Chris's motto, "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision."
> That's what I agree with.
> I hate "Visually impaired."
> That is the worst term in the world!
> Blessings, Joshua
>
> On 5/24/11, Justin Young <jty727 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I joined because I love hearing all the great ideas/suggestions/advice
>> people have to give whenever I am unsure of what to do/where to find
>> something or anything along these lines.  I also love helping when I
>> know the answer to someone else who is unsure of something as well.  I
>> also love reading all the amazing things that people in their
>> divisions are doing!  Finally, I must agree with the point that we
>> have to put an end to the missconceptions that some people still have
>> about us(Blind/Visually Impaired individuals).
>>
>> Justin
>>
>> On 5/24/11, anjelinac26 at gmail.com <anjelinac26 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I joined nabs to learn from other blind students as well as hoping to do
>>> what I can to change societies misconceptions of blindness. The list has
>>> been a valuable sounding board for questions over the years.
>>>
>>> Anjelina
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On May 24, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey all,
>>>>  I am just wondering, what made you  want to be a part of  nabs?
>>>> Yes,  This is  a large Division, made of a network of divisions and
>>>> more  to the point lots of us students.  So what made you want to be
>>>> involved with nabs? This could be  anything from why do you post
>>>> messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at
>>>> Washington Seminar or National Convention?  Or...Why do you contribute
>>>> to the student slate,  read the student slate, are a part of your
>>>> state division.
>>>> If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed.
>>>> Thanks!
>>>> Darian
>>>>
>>>> p.s. I am seriously curious :)
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Darian Smith
>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace
>>>>
>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose.
>>>>
>>>> ? Robert Byrne
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
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>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 21:42:50 -0600
From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
Bookshare
Message-ID: <BANLkTim5hg+jJX7mQ+A8WFeCm0-1nxOGcQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

To all,
  Please do your best to disregard the aweful grammar and terrible
typos I made in that last post.  That'll teach me to send stuff
without double-checking and editing first!  Anyways, my terrible
delivery of that last message didn't do it justice.  If it's not too
jmuch trouble, read what I tried to write and not what I actually
wrote.  *grin*

On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> To all,
>   First off, before I get roasted for disagreeing with you guys, I
> want to say that braille is absolutely critical.  My biggest regret
> about my education so far (aside from my terrible habbit to
> procrastinate stuff), is that I've started using braille less and less
> and audio more and more.  I really think it's damaged my learning and
> put me at a disadvantage and, while I'm still a great braille reader,
> I don't use it much as I ought to.  That said, braille has helped me
> with spelling, grammar, imagination, and learning through reading
> rather than listening.  I'm going to start relying on it more again
> and I guarantee my writing and reading comprehention will go from good
> to amazing-it's happened before and, so help me, I'm going to get back
> what I've lost by relegating braille to a back seat behind my
> computer.
>   That being said, braille access to books from mainstream sources is
> increasing at a tremendous rate.  I can use my apex as a braille
> display on my ITouch to read books I purchase via Ibooks.  I'm going
> to make the prediction that, at some point within the next several
> years, using a notetaker or a braille display to read Kindel books
> will be practical-it's just a guess, but I'd be surprised if five
> years go by and I'm wrong.  With KNFB developing the BLIO reader, I
> have no doubt support for braille displays will be integrated before
> too long.  Reading books in mainstream formats on a braille display is
> already doable, braille and I think it will only expand.  The way I
> see it, the ease of reading ebooks on a braille display, as well as
> the number of formats we'll be able to read on a braille display, will
> only increase.
>   Now to address the philosophical point this article brings up.  I
> totally agree with the author here.  If we want to be treated as
> equals, we have to understand we need to demand equal responsibilities
> along with equal rights.  I don't see public libraries going away,
> lots of people like their hardcopy books.  Therefore I don't see NLS
> going away as a lender of paper braille books. I still like reading
> paper braille from time to time and there are plenty of blind people
> who aren't very computer literate.  People still like buying print
> hardcovers and paperbooks; in that same vain, I don't see the National
> Braille Press going away.  But sighted people don't get free ebooks,
> why should we?  It used to be that we needed them because they were
> the only ebooks we could read with a braille display, not so anymore.
> If we're going to be true to our philosophy as Federationists, it's
> not fair for us to want preferential treatment here.  Do we really
> mean it when we say we want to be equal citizens?  If we do, it's high
> time we start paying an equal price, especially since it's not that
> hard to read ebooks on a braille display, if we know what we're doing,
> and it's only going to get easier as programs such as the Blio and
> Kindle improve their access.  I say we'll only be treated like
> everyone else when we realize that equality isn't an extra handout, it
> isn't just a change in society's attitudes towards us, but it's mostly
> an acceptence of the responsibilities that come with first-class
> citizenship!  And getting ebooks for free or at a very steap discount,
> while everyone else has to pay, is definitely not an equal
> responsibility.  Who's with me?
>   All the best,
> Kirt
>
> On 5/24/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Hi Kerry,
>> Interesting question. Yes we do have more access to mainstream books
>> through
>> comericial audio like audible.com and Random House has recorded books and
>> Amozon has many recorded books too.
>> That said I do not see NLS going away for a long time.  As others said,
>> there is still a place for a hard copy braille book, despite technology.
>> You can only get certain things on braille paper such as paragraphs
>> structure that you cannot get on a linear display.  You can take a
>> braille
>> book anywhere and its durable. Besides not everyone is tech savy or has a
>> braille display on their notetaker if they own one.
>>
>> As to bookshare, I'm not so sure of that.
>> Part of me thinks it will go away.  If electronic books become accessible
>> from distributors and publishers, then why would anyone need bookshare?
>> That is a source of electronic books after all. If we all can read books
>> via
>> our computers or hook a braille display to the PC to read, then that
>> serves
>> the same purpose of bookkshare.
>>
>> But if bookshare comes to a demise, I do not see that happening for a
>> long
>> time.  It will be a slow decline of users.
>>
>> Ashley
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jorge Paez
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:17 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
>>
>> I think Bookshare will go away.
>> Yes, you can read books with a braille display, if you have an iPhone 4
>> or
>> above.
>> And also: can't you use your notetaker with the PC as a braille display?
>> I don't see NLS going any time soon just for the braille books.
>> They might move away from audio/online, but the braille books are still
>> valuable.
>> I, like you, want to read the digital stuff on a display too.
>>
>> On May 24, 2011, at 8:42 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Guys:
>>>
>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh
>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted
>>> to get your thoughts.
>>>
>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of
>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should
>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from
>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's
>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and
>>> the NLS library service should go away.
>>>
>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?
>>>
>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future?
>>>
>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.
>>>
>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille
>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books.
>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone
>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display
>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in
>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a
>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS.
>>>
>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle
>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for
>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for
>>> reading.
>>>
>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many
>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat
>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for
>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went
>>> away completely.
>>>
>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion
>>> purposes.
>>>
>>> Kerri
>>>
>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
>>> by Josh de Lioncourt
>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that
>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of
>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the
>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we
>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle,
>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"
>>>
>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people
>>> with whom I?ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one
>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an
>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually
>>> impaired community.
>>>
>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let?s take a quick look at just
>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this
>>> question.
>>>
>>> ?In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously
>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with
>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the
>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with
>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing
>>> materials in accessible formats.
>>> ?Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are
>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from
>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content
>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these
>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
>>> ?Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable
>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast,
>>> commercial solutions like Apple?s iBooks and Amazon?s Kindle provide
>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices,
>>> including mobile phones.
>>> ?Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a
>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large
>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient
>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove
>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer.
>>> ?Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these
>>> bodies.
>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a
>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform,
>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one
>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in
>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.
>>>
>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however.
>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired
>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential
>>> treatment?"
>>>
>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question.
>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise
>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in
>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.
>>>
>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability
>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply.
>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of
>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A
>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of
>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of
>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information
>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library.
>>>
>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible
>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few
>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the
>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find
>>> none who would argue that point.
>>>
>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline
>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask
>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or
>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The
>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers
>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment
>>> media such as music or movies.
>>>
>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years
>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of
>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling,
>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those
>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only,
>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a
>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers.
>>>
>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated
>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired
>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially
>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community,
>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD?s like everyone else?
>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at
>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or
>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text
>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn?t worth as much as we pay
>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community
>>> college?
>>>
>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions.
>>>
>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar
>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I?m
>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a
>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don?t we open
>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?
>>>
>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or
>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than
>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available
>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users
>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music.
>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which
>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens
>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at
>>> just $229 USD? This isn?t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch
>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage,
>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from
>>> the BookSense. Wouldn?t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately
>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining
>>> books for their hard work?
>>>
>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community
>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon
>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at
>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our
>>> printed materials handed over for free?
>>>
>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a
>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our
>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal
>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on
>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move
>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?
>>>
>>> I know which outcome I?m hoping for.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>
>



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 22:36:04 -0500
From: Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
Bookshare
Message-ID: <BANLkTinvzaS1H-W8XUDORm8xwgysC+n-5Q at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

Well said.  I agree with those statements.

I was thinking about it that way as well.  What do sighted people do
when they want a new book?  They go to the public library, or they go
to Borders or some other book store.  Sometimes they go on Amazon and
order hard copy books.

We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily.  No, not
many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by
the common people) for distribution.  But we need equal access to
books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them.

I think he is confused about the term equal access.  It doesn't mean
that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books
just like the sighted people do.  It means that we can have the same
choices as the sighted people.  Equal access, equal choices.  If we
don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be
forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that
is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from
us in the guise of equal access.  Are all sighted people going to
switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices?  No.  Just
us.  That just doesn't seem right to me.

I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I
find this is my opinion.  Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles.



On 5/24/11, Brice Smith <brice.smith319 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and
> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products,
> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal
> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental
> problem with this article:
>
> ":
> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of
> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The
> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those
> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of
> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS
> up to these unfortunates?"
>
> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their
> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh.
>
> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately
> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many
> users of BookShare  and NLS keep everything they download, and I would
> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a
> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping.
> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as
> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for
> sighted individuals.
>
> Brice
>
> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hey Guys:
>>
>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh
>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted
>> to get your thoughts.
>>
>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of
>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should
>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from
>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's
>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and
>> the NLS library service should go away.
>>
>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?
>>
>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future?
>>
>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.
>>
>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille
>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books.
>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone
>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display
>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in
>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a
>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS.
>>
>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle
>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for
>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for
>> reading.
>>
>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many
>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat
>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for
>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.
>>
>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went
>> away completely.
>>
>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion
>> purposes.
>>
>> Kerri
>>
>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
>> by Josh de Lioncourt
>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that
>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of
>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the
>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we
>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle,
>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"
>>
>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people
>> with whom I?ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one
>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an
>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually
>> impaired community.
>>
>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let?s take a quick look at just
>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this
>> question.
>>
>> ?In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously
>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with
>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the
>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with
>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing
>> materials in accessible formats.
>> ?Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are
>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from
>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content
>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these
>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
>> ?Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable
>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast,
>> commercial solutions like Apple?s iBooks and Amazon?s Kindle provide
>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices,
>> including mobile phones.
>> ?Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a
>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large
>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient
>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove
>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer.
>> ?Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these
>> bodies.
>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a
>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform,
>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one
>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in
>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.
>>
>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however.
>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired
>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential
>> treatment?"
>>
>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question.
>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise
>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in
>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.
>>
>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability
>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply.
>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of
>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A
>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of
>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of
>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information
>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library.
>>
>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible
>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few
>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the
>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find
>> none who would argue that point.
>>
>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline
>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask
>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or
>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The
>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers
>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment
>> media such as music or movies.
>>
>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years
>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of
>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling,
>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those
>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only,
>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a
>> future of equal access with our sighted peers.
>>
>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated
>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired
>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially
>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community,
>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD?s like everyone else?
>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at
>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or
>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text
>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn?t worth as much as we pay
>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community
>> college?
>>
>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions.
>>
>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar
>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I?m
>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a
>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don?t we open
>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?
>>
>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or
>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than
>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available
>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users
>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music.
>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which
>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens
>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at
>> just $229 USD? This isn?t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch
>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage,
>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from
>> the BookSense. Wouldn?t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately
>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining
>> books for their hard work?
>>
>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community
>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon
>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at
>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our
>> printed materials handed over for free?
>>
>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a
>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our
>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal
>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on
>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move
>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?
>>
>> I know which outcome I?m hoping for.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> Brice Smith
> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Julie McG
Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
Eyes for the Blind

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
life."
John 3:16



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 22:01:09 -0600
From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
Bookshare
Message-ID: <BANLkTingzvPLKv-+Opu85UN1oijDPgaGDg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

Julie,
  More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to
libraries or buying them hardcopy.  The ability to read mainstream
ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and
probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous
rate!  If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library
like everyone else does.  If we want to buy a hard copy braille book
we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to
buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them.  Maybe it's a worthwhile
idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so
we have to pay the same price as everyone else.  But if we want to get
an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it.  Just like everyone else.
And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple
devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here
and expanding fast!  Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be
treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options
(again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else
and read them with braille displays?  If that's not hippocricy, I
honestly don't know what is.
  I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's
feelings.  But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please
don't take my passion as a personal attack.
  With respect,
Kirt

On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com> wrote:
> Well said.  I agree with those statements.
>
> I was thinking about it that way as well.  What do sighted people do
> when they want a new book?  They go to the public library, or they go
> to Borders or some other book store.  Sometimes they go on Amazon and
> order hard copy books.
>
> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily.  No, not
> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by
> the common people) for distribution.  But we need equal access to
> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them.
>
> I think he is confused about the term equal access.  It doesn't mean
> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books
> just like the sighted people do.  It means that we can have the same
> choices as the sighted people.  Equal access, equal choices.  If we
> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be
> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that
> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from
> us in the guise of equal access.  Are all sighted people going to
> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices?  No.  Just
> us.  That just doesn't seem right to me.
>
> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I
> find this is my opinion.  Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles.
>
>
>
> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith <brice.smith319 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and
>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products,
>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal
>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental
>> problem with this article:
>>
>> ":
>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of
>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The
>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those
>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of
>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS
>> up to these unfortunates?"
>>
>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their
>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh.
>>
>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately
>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many
>> users of BookShare  and NLS keep everything they download, and I would
>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a
>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping.
>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as
>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for
>> sighted individuals.
>>
>> Brice
>>
>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hey Guys:
>>>
>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh
>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted
>>> to get your thoughts.
>>>
>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of
>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should
>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from
>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's
>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and
>>> the NLS library service should go away.
>>>
>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?
>>>
>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future?
>>>
>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.
>>>
>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille
>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books.
>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone
>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display
>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in
>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a
>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS.
>>>
>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle
>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for
>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for
>>> reading.
>>>
>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many
>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat
>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for
>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went
>>> away completely.
>>>
>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion
>>> purposes.
>>>
>>> Kerri
>>>
>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
>>> by Josh de Lioncourt
>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that
>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of
>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the
>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we
>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle,
>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"
>>>
>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people
>>> with whom I?ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one
>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an
>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually
>>> impaired community.
>>>
>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let?s take a quick look at just
>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this
>>> question.
>>>
>>> ?In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously
>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with
>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the
>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with
>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing
>>> materials in accessible formats.
>>> ?Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are
>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from
>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content
>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these
>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
>>> ?Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable
>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast,
>>> commercial solutions like Apple?s iBooks and Amazon?s Kindle provide
>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices,
>>> including mobile phones.
>>> ?Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a
>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large
>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient
>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove
>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer.
>>> ?Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these
>>> bodies.
>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a
>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform,
>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one
>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in
>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.
>>>
>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however.
>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired
>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential
>>> treatment?"
>>>
>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question.
>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise
>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in
>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.
>>>
>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability
>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply.
>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of
>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A
>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of
>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of
>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information
>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library.
>>>
>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible
>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few
>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the
>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find
>>> none who would argue that point.
>>>
>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline
>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask
>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or
>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The
>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers
>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment
>>> media such as music or movies.
>>>
>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years
>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of
>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling,
>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those
>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only,
>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a
>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers.
>>>
>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated
>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired
>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially
>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community,
>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD?s like everyone else?
>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at
>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or
>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text
>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn?t worth as much as we pay
>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community
>>> college?
>>>
>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions.
>>>
>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar
>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I?m
>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a
>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don?t we open
>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?
>>>
>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or
>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than
>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available
>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users
>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music.
>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which
>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens
>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at
>>> just $229 USD? This isn?t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch
>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage,
>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from
>>> the BookSense. Wouldn?t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately
>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining
>>> books for their hard work?
>>>
>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community
>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon
>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at
>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our
>>> printed materials handed over for free?
>>>
>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a
>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our
>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal
>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on
>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move
>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?
>>>
>>> I know which outcome I?m hoping for.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Brice Smith
>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> Julie McG
>  Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
>
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 23:18:44 -0500
From: David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>
To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Press Release: Design Science and ETS receive
grant to boost math accessibility
Message-ID: <auto-000013613959 at mailfront4.g2host.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed


>Subject: Press Release: Design Science and ETS receive grant to
>boost math accessibility
>Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 11:11:00 -0700



>Hi,
>
>We are sending this message because you asked us to keep you informed
>about our products and technologies.
>
>We are happy to announce that Design Science, along with Educational
>Testing Service, have received a U.S. Department of Education grant to
>jointly develop math-to-speech tools.
>
>This will be of interest to those involved in STEM education,
>accessibility and publishing. The press release has been published on
>our website and is included below.
>http://www.dessci.com/en/company/press/releases/110524.htm
>
>Best Regards,
>--Bruce
>
>Bruce Virga -- brucev at dessci.com
>EVP of Sales & Business Development, COO
>
>Tel: +1 (562) 432-2920
>Fax: +1 (562) 432-2857
>Mobile: +1 (949) 233-8212
>
>Design Science, Inc. -- www.dessci.com
>140 Pine Avenue, 4th Floor
>Long Beach, California 90802 USA
>
>~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, MathDaisy, Equation Editor ~
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>
>New Math-to-Speech Technologies to Help Blind and Visually Impaired
>Students Master Mathematics
>
>Long Beach, Calif. - May 24, 2011 - Design Science and Educational
>Testing Service (ETS) have announced they are working jointly to modify
>MathType(TM) and MathPlayer(TM), so that classroom materials, tests and
>other documents containing mathematical content may be clearly spoken by
>computers. This new math-to-speech technology will provide students who
>are blind or have other visual impairments, the tools they need to
>learn, practice, and take math and science tests on a more equal footing
>with their classroom peers.
>
>Some of the country's leading subject-matter experts and developers of
>assistive technology for students who are blind or visually impaired,
>will assist on the project which begins July 1, 2011, and is supported
>by a $1.5 million Institute of Education Sciences grant.
>
>"Existing assistive technology that provides synthetic speech for
>electronic text does at best a limited job of making math accessible for
>this group of students," explains Lois Frankel, an ETS Assessment
>Specialist and the leader of the effort. "The current technology falls
>short because it generally does not 'know' how to describe mathematical
>expressions, especially in a way that provides access to their nonlinear
>structure.
>
>"ETS and Design Science will work together to enhance MathPlayer, the
>tool that voices the math encoded in MathML, so that it sounds more like
>what students - particularly those in Algebra I - are used to hearing,"
>Frankel says. "We also plan to work on a number of customizations to
>MathType, including a feature to allow teachers and other users to
>select how mathematical expressions are described. For example, they
>could select whether the machine says 'four over five' or 'four fifths.'
>Another customization we plan to add is keyboard navigation that allows
>blind or visually impaired users to go back and replay voiced segments
>in mathematically meaningful 'chunks.' Our goal is to provide students
>and teachers with a better system for voicing mathematical notation that
>includes some truly useful functionality."
>
>"It has been a long-term Design Science goal to make math accessible,
>and our team have been working hard at it for over six years," said Neil
>Soiffer, Senior Scientist at Design Science. "It's a great opportunity
>to be partnering with an organization the stature and importance of ETS,
>to push the state-of-the-art forward."
>
>Working with Frankel and Soiffer on the effort are ETS Assessment
>Specialist Beth Brownstein, Research Scientist Eric Hansen, and Senior
>Research Scientist Cara Laitusis. Among the other organizations and
>consultants who will take part in the project are:
>
>- Dewitt & Associates, specializes in accessibility training, learning
>systems and support, and will provide advice on the implementation of
>MathML accessibility tools and assist in the development of training
>modules for students and teachers.
>- GW Micro, a leading firm in the adaptive technology industry, will
>modify its Window-Eyes screen reader software to work seamlessly with
>the tools developed by the project.
>- Jim Allan, the accessibility coordinator and webmaster for the Texas
>School for the Blind and Visually Impaired.
>- Maylene Bird, a teacher of mathematics to visually impaired students
>at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired.
>- Christine Hinton, a Program Development Specialist for the New Jersey
>Commission for the Blind and Visually Impaired, will help recruit
>student participants from inclusive schools in New Jersey.
>- Gaylen Kapperman, a professor of Education who is also blind, with
>specialization in research and development projects pertaining to
>mathematics instruction and assistive technology used by individuals who
>are blind or are visually impaired.
>- Abraham Nemeth, the author of The Nemeth Braille Code for Mathematics
>and Science Notation, and a blind expert in making mathematics
>accessible to blind individuals.
>- Susan Osterhaus, a secondary mathematics teacher and statewide
>accessibility expert at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually
>Impaired.
>
>"The criteria for success in this project will be three-fold," explains
>Marisa Farnum, Vice President of Assessment Development at ETS. "First,
>will students using the tailored tools over the status quo be better
>able to solve algebra problems at an appropriate level? And, are they
>better able to correctly identify the structure of algebra-level math
>expressions when using the tools? Second, will math teachers be able to
>use the authoring tools developed by this project to quickly and easily
>create math materials that are accessible to their students with visual
>impairments? And finally, do the teachers and students who participate
>as subjects in these development efforts find the tools provided usable
>and convenient?"
>
>About Design Science
>Founded in 1986 and headquartered in Long Beach, California, Design
>Science develops software used by educators, scientists and publishing
>professionals, including MathType, Equation Editor in Microsoft Office,
>MathFlow, MathDaisy and MathPlayer, to communicate on the web and in
>print. For more information please visit www.dessci.com.
>
>About ETS
>At nonprofit ETS, we advance quality and equity in education for people
>worldwide by creating assessments based on rigorous research. ETS serves
>individuals, educational institutions and government agencies by
>providing customized solutions for teacher certification, English
>language learning, and elementary, secondary and post-secondary
>education, as well as conducting education research, analysis and policy
>studies. Founded in 1947, ETS develops, administers and scores more than
>50 million tests annually - including the TOEFL(r) and TOEIC(r) tests,
>the GRE(r) tests and The Praxis Series(tm) assessments - in more than
>180 countries, at over 9,000 locations worldwide. www.ets.org.
>
>###
>
>Design Science Contact:
>Bruce Virga
>brucev at dessci.com
>800-827-0685
>+1 (562) 432-2920
>Design Science, Inc.
>140 Pine Avenue, 4th Floor
>Long Beach, CA 90802
>USA
>
>ETS Contact:
>Tom Ewing
>tewing at ets.org
>+1 (609) 683-2803
>Education Testing Service
>External Relations
>Princeton, NJ 08541-0001
>USA




------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 21:20:15 -0700
From: Christina Mitchell <cnaylor073 at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
Bookshare
Message-ID: <BANLkTikbZJ5mm+5X-6y=OexnvNsPu5xAWQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

I love my braille folks.  I first learned it when I was 10 and I'm
hooked on it.  Before I learned braille I couldn't spell worth a piece
of crap.  I felt like a retard asking teachers in school to spell
certain words.  I could spell simple words but those big ones (those
you find in SAT books) were my toughest.  I read braille everyday now.
Since I'm using braille more over audio, my spelling and grammar has
gotten better.

On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> Julie,
>   More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to
> libraries or buying them hardcopy.  The ability to read mainstream
> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and
> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous
> rate!  If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library
> like everyone else does.  If we want to buy a hard copy braille book
> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to
> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them.  Maybe it's a worthwhile
> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so
> we have to pay the same price as everyone else.  But if we want to get
> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it.  Just like everyone else.
> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple
> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here
> and expanding fast!  Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be
> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options
> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else
> and read them with braille displays?  If that's not hippocricy, I
> honestly don't know what is.
>   I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's
> feelings.  But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please
> don't take my passion as a personal attack.
>   With respect,
> Kirt
>
> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Well said.  I agree with those statements.
>>
>> I was thinking about it that way as well.  What do sighted people do
>> when they want a new book?  They go to the public library, or they go
>> to Borders or some other book store.  Sometimes they go on Amazon and
>> order hard copy books.
>>
>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily.  No, not
>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by
>> the common people) for distribution.  But we need equal access to
>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them.
>>
>> I think he is confused about the term equal access.  It doesn't mean
>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books
>> just like the sighted people do.  It means that we can have the same
>> choices as the sighted people.  Equal access, equal choices.  If we
>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be
>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that
>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from
>> us in the guise of equal access.  Are all sighted people going to
>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices?  No.  Just
>> us.  That just doesn't seem right to me.
>>
>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I
>> find this is my opinion.  Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith <brice.smith319 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and
>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products,
>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal
>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental
>>> problem with this article:
>>>
>>> ":
>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of
>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The
>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those
>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of
>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS
>>> up to these unfortunates?"
>>>
>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their
>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh.
>>>
>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately
>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many
>>> users of BookShare  and NLS keep everything they download, and I would
>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a
>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping.
>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as
>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for
>>> sighted individuals.
>>>
>>> Brice
>>>
>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hey Guys:
>>>>
>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh
>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted
>>>> to get your thoughts.
>>>>
>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of
>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should
>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from
>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's
>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and
>>>> the NLS library service should go away.
>>>>
>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future?
>>>>
>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.
>>>>
>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille
>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books.
>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone
>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display
>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in
>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a
>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS.
>>>>
>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle
>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for
>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for
>>>> reading.
>>>>
>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many
>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat
>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for
>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.
>>>>
>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went
>>>> away completely.
>>>>
>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion
>>>> purposes.
>>>>
>>>> Kerri
>>>>
>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt
>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that
>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of
>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the
>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we
>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle,
>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"
>>>>
>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people
>>>> with whom I?ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one
>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an
>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually
>>>> impaired community.
>>>>
>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let?s take a quick look at just
>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this
>>>> question.
>>>>
>>>> ?In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously
>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with
>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the
>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with
>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing
>>>> materials in accessible formats.
>>>> ?Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are
>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from
>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content
>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these
>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
>>>> ?Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable
>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast,
>>>> commercial solutions like Apple?s iBooks and Amazon?s Kindle provide
>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices,
>>>> including mobile phones.
>>>> ?Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a
>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large
>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient
>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove
>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer.
>>>> ?Many books are never made available in accessible formats through 
>>>> these
>>>> bodies.
>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a
>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform,
>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one
>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in
>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.
>>>>
>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however.
>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired
>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential
>>>> treatment?"
>>>>
>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question.
>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise
>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in
>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.
>>>>
>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability
>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply.
>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of
>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A
>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of
>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of
>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information
>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library.
>>>>
>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible
>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few
>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the
>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find
>>>> none who would argue that point.
>>>>
>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline
>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask
>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or
>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The
>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers
>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment
>>>> media such as music or movies.
>>>>
>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years
>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of
>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling,
>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those
>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only,
>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a
>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers.
>>>>
>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated
>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired
>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially
>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community,
>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD?s like everyone else?
>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at
>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or
>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text
>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn?t worth as much as we pay
>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community
>>>> college?
>>>>
>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions.
>>>>
>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar
>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I?m
>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a
>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don?t we open
>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?
>>>>
>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or
>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than
>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available
>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users
>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music.
>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which
>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens
>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at
>>>> just $229 USD? This isn?t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch
>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage,
>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from
>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn?t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately
>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining
>>>> books for their hard work?
>>>>
>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community
>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon
>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at
>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our
>>>> printed materials handed over for free?
>>>>
>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a
>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our
>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal
>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on
>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move
>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?
>>>>
>>>> I know which outcome I?m hoping for.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Brice Smith
>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Julie McG
>>  Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
>> Eyes for the Blind
>>
>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
>> life."
>> John 3:16
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cnaylor073%40gmail.com
>



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 23:26:06 -0500
From: Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs?
Message-ID: <BANLkTikjSqw8O+a9dP2rjTGPOfivgDYBFA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

Amen!
Anything, but, "visually impaired!"
Blessings, Joshua

On 5/24/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
> What's wrong with the word "blind"?
>
> Mike Freeman
> sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On May 24, 2011, at 19:30, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> I joined, for the reasons, everyone here mentioned.
>> I'm actually going to join the group, next year, at convention.
>> I do, however, want to say, that the term should be sight impaired.
>> I like Chris's motto, "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision."
>> That's what I agree with.
>> I hate "Visually impaired."
>> That is the worst term in the world!
>> Blessings, Joshua
>>
>> On 5/24/11, Justin Young <jty727 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I joined because I love hearing all the great ideas/suggestions/advice
>>> people have to give whenever I am unsure of what to do/where to find
>>> something or anything along these lines.  I also love helping when I
>>> know the answer to someone else who is unsure of something as well.  I
>>> also love reading all the amazing things that people in their
>>> divisions are doing!  Finally, I must agree with the point that we
>>> have to put an end to the missconceptions that some people still have
>>> about us(Blind/Visually Impaired individuals).
>>>
>>> Justin
>>>
>>> On 5/24/11, anjelinac26 at gmail.com <anjelinac26 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I joined nabs to learn from other blind students as well as hoping to 
>>>> do
>>>> what I can to change societies misconceptions of blindness. The list 
>>>> has
>>>> been a valuable sounding board for questions over the years.
>>>>
>>>> Anjelina
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On May 24, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>  I am just wondering, what made you  want to be a part of  nabs?
>>>>> Yes,  This is  a large Division, made of a network of divisions and
>>>>> more  to the point lots of us students.  So what made you want to be
>>>>> involved with nabs? This could be  anything from why do you post
>>>>> messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at
>>>>> Washington Seminar or National Convention?  Or...Why do you contribute
>>>>> to the student slate,  read the student slate, are a part of your
>>>>> state division.
>>>>> If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed.
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>> Darian
>>>>>
>>>>> p.s. I am seriously curious :)
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Darian Smith
>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
>>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace
>>>>>
>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose.
>>>>>
>>>>> ? Robert Byrne
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu
>



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 22:28:16 -0600
From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
Bookshare
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=z1KrBtLA1WmejOx3xwHXEBo8yLQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot),
  Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point
where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D
audiobooks...but we're moving there fast.  I don't think it'll be too
long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker
or smart phone with braille display.  The technology's out there, it
just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that
trend's already started with Apple and Blio.  But it won't be too long
until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to
read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as
using bookshare.  When that happens (and it's certainly not far off),
I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our
hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few
posts.  *grin*  And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get
ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are
probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't
as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I
download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like
every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of
getting them on a silver platter
  I'm done now,
Kirt

On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> Julie,
>   More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to
> libraries or buying them hardcopy.  The ability to read mainstream
> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and
> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous
> rate!  If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library
> like everyone else does.  If we want to buy a hard copy braille book
> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to
> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them.  Maybe it's a worthwhile
> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so
> we have to pay the same price as everyone else.  But if we want to get
> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it.  Just like everyone else.
> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple
> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here
> and expanding fast!  Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be
> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options
> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else
> and read them with braille displays?  If that's not hippocricy, I
> honestly don't know what is.
>   I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's
> feelings.  But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please
> don't take my passion as a personal attack.
>   With respect,
> Kirt
>
> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Well said.  I agree with those statements.
>>
>> I was thinking about it that way as well.  What do sighted people do
>> when they want a new book?  They go to the public library, or they go
>> to Borders or some other book store.  Sometimes they go on Amazon and
>> order hard copy books.
>>
>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily.  No, not
>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by
>> the common people) for distribution.  But we need equal access to
>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them.
>>
>> I think he is confused about the term equal access.  It doesn't mean
>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books
>> just like the sighted people do.  It means that we can have the same
>> choices as the sighted people.  Equal access, equal choices.  If we
>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be
>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that
>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from
>> us in the guise of equal access.  Are all sighted people going to
>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices?  No.  Just
>> us.  That just doesn't seem right to me.
>>
>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I
>> find this is my opinion.  Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith <brice.smith319 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and
>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products,
>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal
>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental
>>> problem with this article:
>>>
>>> ":
>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of
>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The
>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those
>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of
>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS
>>> up to these unfortunates?"
>>>
>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their
>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh.
>>>
>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately
>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many
>>> users of BookShare  and NLS keep everything they download, and I would
>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a
>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping.
>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as
>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for
>>> sighted individuals.
>>>
>>> Brice
>>>
>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hey Guys:
>>>>
>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh
>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted
>>>> to get your thoughts.
>>>>
>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of
>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should
>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from
>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's
>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and
>>>> the NLS library service should go away.
>>>>
>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future?
>>>>
>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.
>>>>
>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille
>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books.
>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone
>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display
>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in
>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a
>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS.
>>>>
>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle
>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for
>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for
>>>> reading.
>>>>
>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many
>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat
>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for
>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.
>>>>
>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went
>>>> away completely.
>>>>
>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion
>>>> purposes.
>>>>
>>>> Kerri
>>>>
>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt
>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that
>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of
>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the
>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we
>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle,
>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"
>>>>
>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people
>>>> with whom I?ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one
>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an
>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually
>>>> impaired community.
>>>>
>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let?s take a quick look at just
>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this
>>>> question.
>>>>
>>>> ?In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously
>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with
>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the
>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with
>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing
>>>> materials in accessible formats.
>>>> ?Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are
>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from
>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content
>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these
>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
>>>> ?Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable
>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast,
>>>> commercial solutions like Apple?s iBooks and Amazon?s Kindle provide
>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices,
>>>> including mobile phones.
>>>> ?Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a
>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large
>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient
>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove
>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer.
>>>> ?Many books are never made available in accessible formats through
>>>> these
>>>> bodies.
>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a
>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform,
>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one
>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in
>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.
>>>>
>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however.
>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired
>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential
>>>> treatment?"
>>>>
>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question.
>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise
>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in
>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.
>>>>
>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability
>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply.
>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of
>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A
>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of
>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of
>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information
>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library.
>>>>
>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible
>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few
>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the
>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find
>>>> none who would argue that point.
>>>>
>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline
>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask
>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or
>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The
>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers
>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment
>>>> media such as music or movies.
>>>>
>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years
>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of
>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling,
>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those
>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only,
>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a
>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers.
>>>>
>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated
>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired
>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially
>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community,
>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD?s like everyone else?
>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at
>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or
>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text
>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn?t worth as much as we pay
>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community
>>>> college?
>>>>
>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions.
>>>>
>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar
>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I?m
>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a
>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don?t we open
>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?
>>>>
>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or
>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than
>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available
>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users
>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music.
>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which
>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens
>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at
>>>> just $229 USD? This isn?t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch
>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage,
>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from
>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn?t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately
>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining
>>>> books for their hard work?
>>>>
>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community
>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon
>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at
>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our
>>>> printed materials handed over for free?
>>>>
>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a
>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our
>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal
>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on
>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move
>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?
>>>>
>>>> I know which outcome I?m hoping for.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Brice Smith
>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Julie McG
>>  Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
>> Eyes for the Blind
>>
>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
>> life."
>> John 3:16
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>
>



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 01:26:00 -0400
From: Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For
Download
Message-ID: <9E74A93E-8F17-48E0-968A-79E558D18275 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Wasn't the latest conference call about technology...?
On May 24, 2011, at 11:38 PM, Nabslinkaudio.org Web Master wrote:

>
>
> Greetings!
> This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest 
> conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download.
>
> Title: The Nabs Membership Call For April 2011
> Description:
> It's time to visit a topic that some understand well, others sort of get 
> it, and some either have questions or don't know what it's all about. I'm 
> speaking about NFB philosophy. Come hear some great ideas for encouraging 
> people to reach their potential that were offered in this call. Learn how 
> the NFB helps to raise the bar of expectation regarding what we as blind 
> people can do.
>
>
>
> You can download the show directly at:
> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/April2011Call.mp3
>
> Alternatively you can visit the archive page at:
> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations
> to hear some of the other calls we've done.
> Best regards,
> David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee
> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org
> http://www.nabslink.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com




------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 05:14:21 -0400
From: Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility
Message-ID: <DF5D7464-DA61-412F-990A-7D35FB9CDC45 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

TalkBack does work for several applications, I just find it rather buggy and 
shaky. Mobile accessibility comes with a suite of applications which of 
course work well, but on touch screen phones there's the option of using it 
outside of those applications. That doesn't work nearly as well, but it's 
nice to have the option.
On May 24, 2011, at 6:24 PM, Jorge Paez wrote:

> Hi IC:
> Thanks for your info.
> Is Mobile Accessibility better then Talckback at least?
>
> Also: I thought Code Factory said that Mobile Accessibility didn't work 
> outside the suite of apps if you were using a touch screen.
>
> Are you saying that for the most part the Mobile Accessibility suite is 
> all that can be used at this point by the blind?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jorge
>
>
> On May 24, 2011, at 6:17 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote:
>
>> In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this 
>> point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done. 
>> I have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, 
>> none of the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on 
>> an iPhone. If you need a fully functional phone and you need to 
>> accomplish things quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not 
>> ready yet. If you want to try something new and you are willing to give 
>> up on some usability and convenience, try getting an Android phone and 
>> see how it goes. If you are planning on using Mobile Accessibility I 
>> would recommend that you get a touch screen phone.
>>
>> IC
>> On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all:
>>> Just wondering,
>>> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in 
>>> the Android platform.
>>> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader?
>>> Is TalkBack any good?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>> Jorge
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com




------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 06:19:35 -0500
From: "Sally Thomas" <seacknit at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
Bookshare
Message-ID: <3BC90F43F8BB44E1A1BF82BF76715E12 at OwnerPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
reply-type=original

There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce accessible
textbooks.  That process is a bit different than the process need to
translate novels into braille.  I think it's great that more and more books
are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would be
foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first when
designing electronic files.  The NIMAC is the repository of accessible
textbook files.  Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks
accessible.

Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the hands of
blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated
process for producing quality braille.

Sally Thomas


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare


One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot),
  Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point
where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D
audiobooks...but we're moving there fast.  I don't think it'll be too
long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker
or smart phone with braille display.  The technology's out there, it
just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that
trend's already started with Apple and Blio.  But it won't be too long
until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to
read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as
using bookshare.  When that happens (and it's certainly not far off),
I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our
hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few
posts.  *grin*  And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get
ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are
probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't
as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I
download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like
every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of
getting them on a silver platter
  I'm done now,
Kirt

On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> Julie,
>   More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to
> libraries or buying them hardcopy.  The ability to read mainstream
> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and
> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous
> rate!  If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library
> like everyone else does.  If we want to buy a hard copy braille book
> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to
> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them.  Maybe it's a worthwhile
> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so
> we have to pay the same price as everyone else.  But if we want to get
> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it.  Just like everyone else.
> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple
> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here
> and expanding fast!  Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be
> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options
> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else
> and read them with braille displays?  If that's not hippocricy, I
> honestly don't know what is.
>   I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's
> feelings.  But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please
> don't take my passion as a personal attack.
>   With respect,
> Kirt
>
> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Well said.  I agree with those statements.
>>
>> I was thinking about it that way as well.  What do sighted people do
>> when they want a new book?  They go to the public library, or they go
>> to Borders or some other book store.  Sometimes they go on Amazon and
>> order hard copy books.
>>
>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily.  No, not
>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by
>> the common people) for distribution.  But we need equal access to
>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them.
>>
>> I think he is confused about the term equal access.  It doesn't mean
>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books
>> just like the sighted people do.  It means that we can have the same
>> choices as the sighted people.  Equal access, equal choices.  If we
>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be
>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that
>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from
>> us in the guise of equal access.  Are all sighted people going to
>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices?  No.  Just
>> us.  That just doesn't seem right to me.
>>
>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I
>> find this is my opinion.  Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith <brice.smith319 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and
>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products,
>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal
>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental
>>> problem with this article:
>>>
>>> ":
>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of
>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The
>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those
>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of
>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS
>>> up to these unfortunates?"
>>>
>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their
>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh.
>>>
>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately
>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many
>>> users of BookShare  and NLS keep everything they download, and I would
>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a
>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping.
>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as
>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for
>>> sighted individuals.
>>>
>>> Brice
>>>
>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hey Guys:
>>>>
>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh
>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted
>>>> to get your thoughts.
>>>>
>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of
>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should
>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from
>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's
>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and
>>>> the NLS library service should go away.
>>>>
>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future?
>>>>
>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.
>>>>
>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille
>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books.
>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone
>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display
>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in
>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a
>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS.
>>>>
>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle
>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for
>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for
>>>> reading.
>>>>
>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many
>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat
>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for
>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.
>>>>
>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went
>>>> away completely.
>>>>
>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion
>>>> purposes.
>>>>
>>>> Kerri
>>>>
>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt
>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that
>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of
>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the
>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we
>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle,
>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"
>>>>
>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people
>>>> with whom I?ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one
>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an
>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually
>>>> impaired community.
>>>>
>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let?s take a quick look at just
>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this
>>>> question.
>>>>
>>>> ?In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously
>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with
>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the
>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with
>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing
>>>> materials in accessible formats.
>>>> ?Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are
>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from
>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content
>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these
>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
>>>> ?Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable
>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast,
>>>> commercial solutions like Apple?s iBooks and Amazon?s Kindle provide
>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices,
>>>> including mobile phones.
>>>> ?Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a
>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large
>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient
>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove
>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer.
>>>> ?Many books are never made available in accessible formats through
>>>> these
>>>> bodies.
>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a
>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform,
>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one
>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in
>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.
>>>>
>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however.
>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired
>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential
>>>> treatment?"
>>>>
>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question.
>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise
>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in
>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.
>>>>
>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability
>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply.
>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of
>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A
>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of
>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of
>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information
>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library.
>>>>
>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible
>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few
>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the
>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find
>>>> none who would argue that point.
>>>>
>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline
>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask
>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or
>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The
>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers
>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment
>>>> media such as music or movies.
>>>>
>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years
>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of
>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling,
>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those
>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only,
>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a
>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers.
>>>>
>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated
>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired
>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially
>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community,
>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD?s like everyone else?
>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at
>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or
>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text
>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn?t worth as much as we pay
>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community
>>>> college?
>>>>
>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions.
>>>>
>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar
>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I?m
>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a
>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don?t we open
>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?
>>>>
>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or
>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than
>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available
>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users
>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music.
>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which
>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens
>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at
>>>> just $229 USD? This isn?t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch
>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage,
>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from
>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn?t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately
>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining
>>>> books for their hard work?
>>>>
>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community
>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon
>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at
>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our
>>>> printed materials handed over for free?
>>>>
>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a
>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our
>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal
>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on
>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move
>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?
>>>>
>>>> I know which outcome I?m hoping for.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Brice Smith
>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Julie McG
>>  Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
>> Eyes for the Blind
>>
>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
>> life."
>> John 3:16
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>
>

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------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 07:41:19 -0400
From: "Rania Ismail" <raniaismail04 at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
Bookshare
Message-ID: <4ddceae3.a559e60a.368d.ffffb5bb at mx.google.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yes that is a good question. I think that what we have now should stay.
Rania,

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Serena Cucco
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:05 PM
To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare

Hey Kerrie,

All great points and how about for those of us who simply don't want an
iphone?

Serena

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Kerri Kosten
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 8:42 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare

Hey Guys:

I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh
DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted
to get your thoughts.

The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of
ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should
try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from
mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's
Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and
the NLS library service should go away.

Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?

Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future?

Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.

While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille
literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books.
Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone
correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display
either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in
BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a
notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS.

What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle
and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for
reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for
reading.

What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many
people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat
computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for
the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.

Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went
away completely.

hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion
purposes.

Kerri

Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
by Josh de Lioncourt
A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that
rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of
years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the
National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we
care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle,
Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"

On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people
with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one
digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an
alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually
impaired community.

Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at just
a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this
question.

.In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously
available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with
access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the
same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with
publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing
materials in accessible formats.
.Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are
understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from
their users before they are able to gain access to the content
provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these
hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
.Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable
or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast,
commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle provide
access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices,
including mobile phones.
.Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a
recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large
number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient
solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove
far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer.
.Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these
bodies.
This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a
visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform,
but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one
solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in
mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.

There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however.
It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired
people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential
treatment?"

Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question.
Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise
inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in
a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.

With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability
and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply.
Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of
information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A
WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of
library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of
college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information
they needed online than by visiting a physical library.

The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible
than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few
technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the
quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find
none who would argue that point.

With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline
of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask
yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or
exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The
answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers
purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment
media such as music or movies.

While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years
passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of
accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling,
and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those
with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only,
solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a
future of equal access with our sighted peers.

It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated
access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired
community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially
when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community,
purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone else?
Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at
StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or
educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text
on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we pay
for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community
college?

For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
afford to purchase books, I have two questions.

First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar
circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm
sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a
treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open
BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?

Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or
government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than
mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available
in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users
to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music.
How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which
provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens
of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at
just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod touch
can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage,
and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from
the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions ultimately
be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining
books for their hard work?

Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community
wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon
for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at
the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our
printed materials handed over for free?

We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a
crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our
convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal
opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on
equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move
forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?

I know which outcome I'm hoping for.

_______________________________________________
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 07:45:44 -0400
From: "Rania Ismail" <raniaismail04 at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs?
Message-ID: <4ddcebec.a079dc0a.72ca.09f7 at mx.google.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I joined the list list because I wanted to connect with other blind
students.
Rania,

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of anjelinac26 at gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:53 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs?

I joined nabs to learn from other blind students as well as hoping to do
what I can to change societies misconceptions of blindness. The list has
been a valuable sounding board for questions over the years.

Anjelina
Sent from my iPhone

On May 24, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey all,
>   I am just wondering, what made you  want to be a part of  nabs?
> Yes,  This is  a large Division, made of a network of divisions and
> more  to the point lots of us students.  So what made you want to be
> involved with nabs? This could be  anything from why do you post
> messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at
> Washington Seminar or National Convention?  Or...Why do you contribute
> to the student slate,  read the student slate, are a part of your
> state division.
> If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed.
>  Thanks!
>  Darian
>
> p.s. I am seriously curious :)
>
> -- 
> Darian Smith
> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace
>
> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose.
>
> - Robert Byrne
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
>
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com

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------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 07:55:34 -0400
From: "Rania Ismail" <raniaismail04 at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs?
Message-ID: <4ddcee3a.42abe60a.28d3.ffffb576 at mx.google.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I like the wird blind! I am more comfortable telling people that I am blind.
Rania,

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Joshua Lester
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 12:26 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why Did I Join Nabs?

Amen!
Anything, but, "visually impaired!"
Blessings, Joshua

On 5/24/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
> What's wrong with the word "blind"?
>
> Mike Freeman
> sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On May 24, 2011, at 19:30, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> I joined, for the reasons, everyone here mentioned.
>> I'm actually going to join the group, next year, at convention.
>> I do, however, want to say, that the term should be sight impaired.
>> I like Chris's motto, "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision."
>> That's what I agree with.
>> I hate "Visually impaired."
>> That is the worst term in the world!
>> Blessings, Joshua
>>
>> On 5/24/11, Justin Young <jty727 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I joined because I love hearing all the great ideas/suggestions/advice
>>> people have to give whenever I am unsure of what to do/where to find
>>> something or anything along these lines.  I also love helping when I
>>> know the answer to someone else who is unsure of something as well.  I
>>> also love reading all the amazing things that people in their
>>> divisions are doing!  Finally, I must agree with the point that we
>>> have to put an end to the missconceptions that some people still have
>>> about us(Blind/Visually Impaired individuals).
>>>
>>> Justin
>>>
>>> On 5/24/11, anjelinac26 at gmail.com <anjelinac26 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I joined nabs to learn from other blind students as well as hoping to
do
>>>> what I can to change societies misconceptions of blindness. The list
has
>>>> been a valuable sounding board for questions over the years.
>>>>
>>>> Anjelina
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On May 24, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>  I am just wondering, what made you  want to be a part of  nabs?
>>>>> Yes,  This is  a large Division, made of a network of divisions and
>>>>> more  to the point lots of us students.  So what made you want to be
>>>>> involved with nabs? This could be  anything from why do you post
>>>>> messages on the list? why you go to conference calls? meetings at
>>>>> Washington Seminar or National Convention?  Or...Why do you contribute
>>>>> to the student slate,  read the student slate, are a part of your
>>>>> state division.
>>>>> If I didn't cover it all then feel free to point out what I missed.
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>> Darian
>>>>>
>>>>> p.s. I am seriously curious :)
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Darian Smith
>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
>>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace
>>>>>
>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Robert Byrne
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.
com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
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ts.pccua.edu
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 08:47:09 -0400
From: Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility
Message-ID: <6DBB8369-33A7-415A-818D-1DF45D7F04AD at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Jorge,
I think I must have been quite sleepy this morning. The touch screen is 
usable within the suite of apps in Mobile Accessibility, but not outside. 
Sorry about the confusion! On the web browser, for example, the experience 
with the touch screen is pretty nice.
On May 24, 2011, at 6:24 PM, Jorge Paez wrote:

> Hi IC:
> Thanks for your info.
> Is Mobile Accessibility better then Talckback at least?
>
> Also: I thought Code Factory said that Mobile Accessibility didn't work 
> outside the suite of apps if you were using a touch screen.
>
> Are you saying that for the most part the Mobile Accessibility suite is 
> all that can be used at this point by the blind?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jorge
>
>
> On May 24, 2011, at 6:17 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote:
>
>> In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this 
>> point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done. 
>> I have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, 
>> none of the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on 
>> an iPhone. If you need a fully functional phone and you need to 
>> accomplish things quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not 
>> ready yet. If you want to try something new and you are willing to give 
>> up on some usability and convenience, try getting an Android phone and 
>> see how it goes. If you are planning on using Mobile Accessibility I 
>> would recommend that you get a touch screen phone.
>>
>> IC
>> On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all:
>>> Just wondering,
>>> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in 
>>> the Android platform.
>>> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader?
>>> Is TalkBack any good?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>> Jorge
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>> nabs-l:
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>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 08:52:39 -0500
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
Bookshare
Message-ID: <auto-000001791098 at mailback3.g2host.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Kirt,

The points you raise are worth thinking about.  Part of what I value about 
the NFB is that we try to ask whether we need a given service.  I would 
raise
these cautions, though.

First, sighted people can get audio books from public libraries.  Many have 
them available to be borrowed on CD and there are even time-limited licensed
downloads.  The role of libraries in society's future is probably going to 
change, but I hope they don't go away completely, for us or for the sighted. 
Our
ability to save downloads is different, though, but I wonder what the 
percentage of people is who truly save them to read them again.  There are 
people who
do, but there are certainly sighted people who return to the library to get 
the same book or to refer to the same encyclopedias.


Second, while I would generally agree about technology, I would not count 
your chickens before they hatch.  Most of our technology is just not as 
seamless
as is using vision.  There is likely always going to be blind people who 
have difficulty mastering the technology just as is the case for sighted 
people.  For
sighted people, though, there are still nontechnological options.

Third, our technology is expensive, especially braille displays.  Our 
unemployment rate is way higher than that of mainstream society so many of 
us are not in
a position to purchase the technology that is needed.  There are a number of 
ways this could change in our favor, but we're not there yet.

Finally, while there are laws that encourage accessibility, there is nothing 
absolute in law.  Some laws encourage accessibility but they don't guarantee 
it.
The two biggest players in computer technology now, Microsoft and Apple, are 
putting forth a pretty good effort at the moment, but we don't know what the
stage will look like in five years.  Ten years ago, I would have assumed 
that Microsoft Word would be without accessibility problems, but in some 
ways it is
harder to use now than it was then.

In my mind, if we were to endorse the reduction of the role of NLS or 
BookShare, we would need an iron-clad legal requirement that texts and the 
means to
read them be accessible, and we would need funding for the devices that 
makes texts accessible for those who can't afford such technology and it 
would
need to be independent of getting a job.  Specifically, this kind of help 
would have to be made for seniors and for persons for whom employment is not 
likely.
Most of the help we get with technology now is as part of an employment 
plan.

While I don't disagree with your assertion that if we have the ability to 
read mainstream materials that we need to consider our need for special 
access, I
think that it would be incorrect to assume what technology is going to do 
for us until we see it actually doing it and we have some means of 
guaranteeing
that it will continue doing it.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Tue, 24 May 2011 22:28:16 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:

>One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot),
>  Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point
>where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D
>audiobooks...but we're moving there fast.  I don't think it'll be too
>long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker
>or smart phone with braille display.  The technology's out there, it
>just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that
>trend's already started with Apple and Blio.  But it won't be too long
>until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to
>read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as
>using bookshare.  When that happens (and it's certainly not far off),
>I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our
>hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few
>posts.  *grin*  And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get
>ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are
>probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't
>as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I
>download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like
>every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of
>getting them on a silver platter
>  I'm done now,
>Kirt

>On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Julie,
>>   More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to
>> libraries or buying them hardcopy.  The ability to read mainstream
>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and
>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous
>> rate!  If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library
>> like everyone else does.  If we want to buy a hard copy braille book
>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to
>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them.  Maybe it's a worthwhile
>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so
>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else.  But if we want to get
>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it.  Just like everyone else.
>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple
>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here
>> and expanding fast!  Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be
>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options
>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else
>> and read them with braille displays?  If that's not hippocricy, I
>> honestly don't know what is.
>>   I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's
>> feelings.  But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please
>> don't take my passion as a personal attack.
>>   With respect,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Well said.  I agree with those statements.
>>>
>>> I was thinking about it that way as well.  What do sighted people do
>>> when they want a new book?  They go to the public library, or they go
>>> to Borders or some other book store.  Sometimes they go on Amazon and
>>> order hard copy books.
>>>
>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily.  No, not
>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by
>>> the common people) for distribution.  But we need equal access to
>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them.
>>>
>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access.  It doesn't mean
>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books
>>> just like the sighted people do.  It means that we can have the same
>>> choices as the sighted people.  Equal access, equal choices.  If we
>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be
>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that
>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from
>>> us in the guise of equal access.  Are all sighted people going to
>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices?  No.  Just
>>> us.  That just doesn't seem right to me.
>>>
>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I
>>> find this is my opinion.  Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith <brice.smith319 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and
>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products,
>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal
>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental
>>>> problem with this article:
>>>>
>>>> ":
>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of
>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The
>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those
>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of
>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS
>>>> up to these unfortunates?"
>>>>
>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their
>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately
>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many
>>>> users of BookShare  and NLS keep everything they download, and I would
>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a
>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping.
>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as
>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for
>>>> sighted individuals.
>>>>
>>>> Brice
>>>>
>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hey Guys:
>>>>>
>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh
>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted
>>>>> to get your thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of
>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should
>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from
>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's
>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and
>>>>> the NLS library service should go away.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future?
>>>>>
>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille
>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books.
>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone
>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display
>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in
>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a
>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS.
>>>>>
>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle
>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for
>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for
>>>>> reading.
>>>>>
>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many
>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat
>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for
>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went
>>>>> away completely.
>>>>>
>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion
>>>>> purposes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>
>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt
>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that
>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of
>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the
>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we
>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle,
>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"
>>>>>
>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people
>>>>> with whom Ive been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one
>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an
>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually
>>>>> impaired community.
>>>>>
>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, lets take a quick look at just
>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this
>>>>> question.
>>>>>
>>>>> "In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously
>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with
>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the
>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with
>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing
>>>>> materials in accessible formats.
>>>>> "Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are
>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from
>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content
>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these
>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
>>>>> "Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable
>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast,
>>>>> commercial solutions like Apples iBooks and Amazons Kindle provide
>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices,
>>>>> including mobile phones.
>>>>> "Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a
>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large
>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient
>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove
>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer.
>>>>> "Many books are never made available in accessible formats through
>>>>> these
>>>>> bodies.
>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a
>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform,
>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one
>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in
>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however.
>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired
>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential
>>>>> treatment?"
>>>>>
>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question.
>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise
>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in
>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.
>>>>>
>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability
>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply.
>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of
>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A
>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of
>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of
>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information
>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library.
>>>>>
>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible
>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few
>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the
>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find
>>>>> none who would argue that point.
>>>>>
>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline
>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask
>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or
>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The
>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers
>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment
>>>>> media such as music or movies.
>>>>>
>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years
>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of
>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling,
>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those
>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only,
>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a
>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers.
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated
>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired
>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially
>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community,
>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVDs like everyone else?
>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at
>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or
>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text
>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isnt worth as much as we pay
>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community
>>>>> college?
>>>>>
>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions.
>>>>>
>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar
>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and Im
>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a
>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why dont we open
>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?
>>>>>
>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or
>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than
>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available
>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users
>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music.
>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which
>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens
>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at
>>>>> just $229 USD? This isnt even to mention the fact that the iPod touch
>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage,
>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from
>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldnt money saved by integrated solutions ultimately
>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining
>>>>> books for their hard work?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community
>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon
>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at
>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our
>>>>> printed materials handed over for free?
>>>>>
>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a
>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our
>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal
>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on
>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move
>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?
>>>>>
>>>>> I know which outcome Im hoping for.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Brice Smith
>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Julie McG
>>>  Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
>>> Eyes for the Blind
>>>
>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
>>> life."
>>> John 3:16
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>
>>

>_______________________________________________
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>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>nabs-l:
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------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 10:08:27 -0400
From: <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For
Download
Message-ID: <203A2F9932BA49A9BE398FDEFEA50856 at OwnerPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

Ic,
It was but remember here was a message stating that call was not recorded.
There fore April's call is the latest call that is digitized.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Ignasi Cambra
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 1:26 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download

Wasn't the latest conference call about technology...?
On May 24, 2011, at 11:38 PM, Nabslinkaudio.org Web Master wrote:

>
>
> Greetings!
> This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest
> conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download.
>
> Title: The Nabs Membership Call For April 2011
> Description:
> It's time to visit a topic that some understand well, others sort of get
> it, and some either have questions or don't know what it's all about. I'm
> speaking about NFB philosophy. Come hear some great ideas for encouraging
> people to reach their potential that were offered in this call. Learn how
> the NFB helps to raise the bar of expectation regarding what we as blind
> people can do.
>
>
>
> You can download the show directly at:
> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/April2011Call.mp3
>
> Alternatively you can visit the archive page at:
> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations
> to hear some of the other calls we've done.
> Best regards,
> David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee
> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org
> http://www.nabslink.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com


_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 12:25:24 -0400
From: David Dunphy <djdrocks4ever at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For
Download
Message-ID: <BANLkTinfScJ7aBxzMPnwNziy_J=JBN82OQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Let me just clarify..
First off, sorry the links for the training centers appeared that way
in email. I have a feeling unless your email is set to display html
it'll be weird like that.
Yes, APril is the most recent call sadly. Ironic that technology would
fail in a technology conference.
But as I also said, I'll be working with the membership committee to
get the audio sounding better, get the recordings to not fail like
that as has happened at times, and most importantly, to make it so
these calls can be heard live as they're happening as it was when this
project first started.
I can tell you now that the meeting from National Convention will be
on the nabslinkaudio.org site as one large download, unless people
want it broken up, but that will be much harder to set up with our
archival system as it is now.
>From David



------------------------------

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End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 55, Issue 43
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