[nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare

Jorge Paez computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com
Wed May 25 23:32:27 UTC 2011


Yes.
Here's the thing though:
how can we deal with the note taker prices?
These companies obviously make more money off of sales to government agencies since not many people can afford individual purchases.
This said, how can we lower the price?


On May 25, 2011, at 6:13 PM, <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:

> HBrice,
> Awesome points and I thought the same thing. It seems like there is this belief that well if I got the technology and can use it, then everyone can do it. Not so.  Rehab only gets you technology as a student. A VR stream is over $300 and some can't afford that even. A notetaker is about 4 k or 6 k.
> And folks, not everyone wants an Iphone or I Touch.
> Brice said
> "As mentioned, I would be perfectly fine with NLS or BookShare cracking
> down on piracy of ebooks. I delete the materials when I'm done with
> them anyway, and think that everyone else should too. This type of
> thing could never be full proof but might help alleviate the cries of
> unfairness on the topic."
> 
> Yes, I do too; I delete when I'm done, although I'll admit some real good books, I have kept.
> Sighted students have options to rent books and as Brice said if you buy the book you cannot sell it back if your DSS scanned it.
> So those two things are unfair to us. I don't see a win-win solution.
> I want to see ebook readers accessible, and once they are and are wide spread we may see the slow, I mean slow, decline of bookshare.
> But I predict that NLS will stay as long as traditional libraries stay.
> 
> Ashley
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Brice Smith
> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:53 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
> 
> What's also not fair is paying full price for a textbook and being
> unable to return the material at the end of the semester like other
> students because your DSO ripped and scanned the book. In that case,
> keeping the PDF or text file is perfectly justifiable, in my opinion.
> By the way: one of my friends rents her textbooks online, photocopies
> the pages she needs, and returns the book within the return limit.
> Blind people are not the only ones that unfairly cheat the system.
> *grin*
> 
> As mentioned, I would be perfectly fine with NLS or BookShare cracking
> down on piracy of ebooks. I delete the materials when I'm done with
> them anyway, and think that everyone else should too. This type of
> thing could never be full proof but might help alleviate the cries of
> unfairness on the topic.
> 
> There seems to be an increasing but small minority of "elite" blind
> people, a lot of whom are on these lists. These people have Braille
> displays, Apple iPhones or n86 phones with KNFB Reader, the latest
> computer technology and money and/or resources from rehab or another
> source which sometimes makes them somewhat unconsciously disconnected
> from reality. This is a problem when we stop realizing that not
> everyone has access to all this and start taking away options for
> others that does more harm than good.
> 
> Brice
> 
> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> wouldn't mind  if NLS had a time limit on their downloadable books. But
>> getting hard copy is similar to the library; you got to return hard copy
>> books or the digital books within a month.  I think the borrowing there is
>> similar to a sighted person borrowing from a library; only thing is NLS only
>> has a fraction of the library.  Kirt, my schools also require proof
>> of purchase before they make an accessible book via the publisher sending
>> electronic text. I'm fine with that because sighted students have to buy
>> books too.  I see what you say about downloading books free.  I guess that
>> is the loop hole in digital downloads.
>> But if you get an old fashion CD from Learning Ally, you still have to
>> return it.
>> 
>> Ashley
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kirt Manwaring
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:02 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
>> 
>> Kevin,
>>  Not a bad idea.  But the thing is some kinds of textbooks (ala
>> calculus, chemistry, etc) that are symbol-intensive are still
>> problematic in electronic braille.  But I guess having the choice to
>> read them that way isn't a bad thing.
>>  Ashley, I hear you.  Does rehab not help pay for readers?  And, as I
>> said, I wouldn't mind if digital braille lending libraries like NLS
>> implimented a real way to make sure you couldn't just download a book
>> in braille and keep it forever-for sighted people, that usually
>> results in huge library fines.  And of course most people can buy
>> paperbacks at pretty cheap prices-with Audible and Blio and the Kindle
>> and IOS devices (especially if and when braille access improves), we
>> have the ability to buy ebooks at the same prices everyone else has
>> to.  Downloading a book for free from bookshare or learning ally is
>> not the same as going to the library and checking out a book because
>> libraries have return policies (even for ebooks and digital
>> audiobooks), so as to not violate copyright law.  We can download a
>> .brf book for free, which anyone else has to pay for if they want to
>> keep instead of borrow.
>>  And I have another question.  I recognize the need for accessible
>> textbooks.  My university accessibility center requires that I first
>> purchase any book before they can make it accessible, which is
>> perfectly reasonable-other students, after all, have to buy their
>> textbooks  if they want to own them.  So why on earth can we
>> permanently get college textbooks for _free_, which we can keep for as
>> long as we like...in effect, we're buying books without paying for
>> them.  Were I a book publisher, I'd probably be a little bit ticked
>> about that.  I'm all for accessibility, but shouldn't we have to pay
>> for our books if we want to keep them, just like everyone else has to?
>> How on earth is this fair?
>> 
>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>> Kirt,
>>> 
>>> Well, I tried to cover this before but perhaps didn't do it well enough.
>>> Saying that the availability of novels is probably fairly straight-forward
>>> is not the same
>>> as saying that we already have access to them.  In some cases we do,
>>> through
>>> BLIO, for example.  However, I still believe that discarding the old
>>> infrastructures that have been built up over many years is a bit premature
>>> until we get a better sense of where electronic texts and their
>>> accessability is truly
>>> going.  I don't doubt the commitment of BLIO to accessibility, but I do
>>> think that we can't say at this point how well the general market will
>>> support BLIO and
>>> that's important for it to work.  It will take some time for many of us to
>>> get used to reading with a synthesized voice, even if it is pretty good.
>>> There are also
>>> many for whom technology is still a challenge.  These things will probably
>>> change over time, but they are still true barriers today and will be so
>>> for
>>> a while yet.
>>> 
>>> Electronic texts probably will have an impact on BookShare over time.
>>> Also,
>>> we are about the only organization of blind people who ever questions
>>> whether
>>> we need a given service, so even if we were to all agree that it is time
>>> to
>>> abandon BookShare and buy e-texts, there will be others who wil oppose
>>> that.
>>> 
>>> Still, my contention is simply that we need to see better how the
>>> electronic
>>> text market matures and how accessibility fairs before advocating big
>>> changes in
>>> how we get books.  Examining whether we are receiving preferential
>>> treatment
>>> is always a good thing to do in my opinion, and I hope we're honest enough
>>> with ourselves to continue this kind of self-examination.  At the same
>>> time,
>>> we have to be careful to not trade a service we have for promises of what
>>> will be,
>>> and we also need to be careful not to sell out those of us who are less
>>> technical or on lower incomes.
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> 
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>> 
>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 13:24:50 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Steve,
>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email.  If access to
>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we
>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally
>>>> for free?  I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of
>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook
>>>> lending libraries do.  (overdrive anyone?)  But if we can read our
>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them
>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare
>>>> or learning ally for free?  Sounds like preferential treatment to me,
>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks.
>>>> Warmly,
>>>> Kirt
>>> 
>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>  Fair enough.  I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too
>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front.  And scientific/math
>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't it?
>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances,
>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation
>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with
>>>>> the braille pins or something.  It'll need to be that drastic, I
>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even
>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll
>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of
>>>>> what happens to bookshare.  I certainly wouldn't trust a math or
>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with
>>>>> literary braille.
>>>>>  I see your point about brand names.  But when one of those brands is
>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about
>>>>> that brand providing braille support.  It's not a guarantee of course
>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it
>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and braille
>>>>> access will improve.  I hope the good people at KNFB don't
>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so
>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark.
>>>>>  Warmly,
>>>>> Kirt
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some
>>>>>> things
>>>>>> happening that hold great promise.  I think that giving us access to a
>>>>>> novel, for
>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases.  We need
>>>>>> access
>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream titles,
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> am
>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math
>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed.  This may
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> be that
>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in textbooks.
>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will
>>>>>> concentrate on making
>>>>>> the various drawings accessible.  They might then create a final
>>>>>> product
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that is
>>>>>> already
>>>>>> available.  I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to
>>>>>> create
>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> same text
>>>>>> and making it available in another format.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools you
>>>>>> name
>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company.  We don't know what
>>>>>> sort
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time.  The
>>>>>> industry
>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency.  What if some
>>>>>> new
>>>>>> way
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is hard
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> make accessible.  My point isn't that there isn't reason to have some
>>>>>> hope,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer need
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case eventually.
>>>>>> In
>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to make
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible.  Even with their efforts, our governor
>>>>>> yesterday
>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible.  I
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible PDF's
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> 2011.  We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology
>>>>>> goes.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Steve and Mike,
>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard.
>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature?
>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader and
>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel?  Are you saying that an ebook
>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become
>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access?  That seems a bit
>>>>>>> silly to me.  What about websites like coursesmart?  You guys know
>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast
>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille.
>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read
>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare.  If we want to read a
>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those expensive
>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology
>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart or
>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel.  We'd just have to pay the
>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have the
>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very
>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI.
>>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner <liziswhatis at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with
>>>>>>>> BookShare
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality of
>>>>>>>> BKS
>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner
>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council
>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail:  800-942-0149 Ext. 2531
>>>>>>>> e-mail:
>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal:
>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com
>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter:
>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM
>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
>>>>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce
>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>> textbooks.  That process is a bit different than the process need to
>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille.  I think it's great that more and more
>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility
>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>> designing electronic files.  The NIMAC is the repository of
>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>> textbook files.  Textbook companies are required to make K-12
>>>>>>>> textbooks
>>>>>>>> accessible.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the
>>>>>>>> hands
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated
>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
>>>>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot),
>>>>>>>>  Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point
>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D
>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast.  I don't think it'll be too
>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your
>>>>>>>> notetaker
>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display.  The technology's out there, it
>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that
>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio.  But it won't be too
>>>>>>>> long
>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as
>>>>>>>> using bookshare.  When that happens (and it's certainly not far off),
>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our
>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few
>>>>>>>> posts.  *grin*  And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to
>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are
>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library
>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I
>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like
>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of
>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter
>>>>>>>>  I'm done now,
>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Julie,
>>>>>>>>>  More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy.  The ability to read mainstream
>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and
>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous
>>>>>>>>> rate!  If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library
>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does.  If we want to buy a hard copy braille book
>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them.  Maybe it's a
>>>>>>>>> worthwhile
>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores
>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else.  But if we want to
>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it.  Just like everyone
>>>>>>>>> else.
>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple
>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here
>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast!  Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be
>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options
>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else
>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays?  If that's not hippocricy, I
>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is.
>>>>>>>>>  I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's
>>>>>>>>> feelings.  But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please
>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack.
>>>>>>>>>  With respect,
>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Well said.  I agree with those statements.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well.  What do sighted people
>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book?  They go to the public library, or they
>>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store.  Sometimes they go on Amazon
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily.  No,
>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed
>>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution.  But we need equal access to
>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get
>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access.  It doesn't
>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books
>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do.  It means that we can have the
>>>>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people.  Equal access, equal choices.  If we
>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be
>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away
>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access.  Are all sighted people going to
>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices?  No.
>>>>>>>>>> Just
>>>>>>>>>> us.  That just doesn't seem right to me.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things,
>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion.  Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith <brice.smith319 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me,
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple
>>>>>>>>>>> products,
>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal
>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR,
>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental
>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> ":
>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of
>>>>>>>>>>> visually
>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply
>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The
>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of
>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of
>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or
>>>>>>>>>>> NLS
>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?"
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately
>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that
>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare  and NLS keep everything they download, and I
>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a
>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and
>>>>>>>>>>> keeping.
>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books
>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for
>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Brice
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh
>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I
>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted
>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the
>>>>>>>>>>>> rise
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we
>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from
>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and
>>>>>>>>>>>> braille
>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know
>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone
>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille
>>>>>>>>>>>> display
>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the
>>>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle
>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> reading.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as
>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat
>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare
>>>>>>>>>>>> went
>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for
>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt
>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of
>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org,
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should
>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several
>>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If
>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an
>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the
>>>>>>>>>>>> visually
>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at
>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this
>>>>>>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now
>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously
>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at
>>>>>>>>>>>> providing
>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats.
>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are
>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability
>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content
>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through
>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise
>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast,
>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle
>>>>>>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices,
>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones.
>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org),
>>>>>>>>>>>> charge
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large
>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient
>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can
>>>>>>>>>>>> prove
>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer.
>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats
>>>>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies.
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a
>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book
>>>>>>>>>>>> platform,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No
>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always
>>>>>>>>>>>> kept
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises,
>>>>>>>>>>>> however.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually
>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential
>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?"
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a
>>>>>>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were
>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise
>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other
>>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the
>>>>>>>>>>>> availability
>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen
>>>>>>>>>>>> sharply.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the
>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A
>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of
>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93%
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the
>>>>>>>>>>>> information
>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more
>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Few
>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact
>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will
>>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the
>>>>>>>>>>>> decline
>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as
>>>>>>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask
>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who
>>>>>>>>>>>> regularly,
>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The
>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers
>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment
>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in
>>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of
>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to
>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the
>>>>>>>>>>>> only,
>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving
>>>>>>>>>>>> toward
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated
>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually
>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility,
>>>>>>>>>>>> especially
>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>> community,
>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>> else?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at
>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or
>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional
>>>>>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as
>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>> pay
>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local
>>>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>>>>> college?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of
>>>>>>>>>>>> visually
>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply
>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar
>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we
>>>>>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or
>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable
>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is
>>>>>>>>>>>> available
>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or
>>>>>>>>>>>> music.
>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch,
>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> tens
>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting
>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod
>>>>>>>>>>>> touch
>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more
>>>>>>>>>>>> storage,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get
>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions
>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately
>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or
>>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining
>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like
>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon
>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks
>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of
>>>>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a
>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our
>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension
>>>>>>>>>>>> equal
>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on
>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move
>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma
>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith
>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co
>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG
>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
>>>>>>>>>> life."
>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma
>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Brice Smith
> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
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